Dave Kashen: The Inner Game Of Life | The Danny Miranda Podcast 394

Like, if you really think about why do you want all the money? Why do you want all the status? Why do you want people to know you sold your company for a billion dollars? There's some feeling that we're wanting, that we think that that will give us joy, abundance, peace, powerful. Those feeling states are actually just part of our essence of love. And if you clear out the noise, the clutter, the stories, it's what's left over. It's not something you need to attain or get or acquire. It's actually our essence. And so the game almost becomes like dead simple. It's like, can I just, you know, remember that that's actually who I am and relax back into it, let go of all that's in the way, and like there's nowhere to go.

Dave Kashen, thank you so much for coming on the podcast here today. I was telling you before we started recording, when I speak to people like you who I feel like have spent a lot of time looking at themselves, have spent a lot of time looking at the world, trying to figure out their mind, it's a really remarkable thing and it makes me feel at peace as the interviewer. So I want to acknowledge you for doing that, and I'm excited for you to hopefully explain and to share the process of one, how you've become so peaceful, and two, how you've been able to cultivate that in others as well. So I'm excited to have you here today. Thank you for being here.

Excited to be here, and thank you for having me.

I would love to start with the tweet that really cultivated my interests, and that is with the question of is it possible you actually have no problems other than the ones your mind invents? What if there's nothing wrong with you or your life? What about this question and what about this scenario is so difficult for us humans to wrap our minds around.

Hmm. Well, I have a lot of thoughts coming up. Uh, one is that our ego minds are problem-solving machines. So they love— our ego loves to identify problems to solve, so then it gets to be dominant and relevant because it feels really useful. Oh, I have this mind and it can analyze and solve problems. So I think it's a bit of like a, um, self-perpetuating phenomenon that we identify as our, our ego mind that likes to figure out and analyze. And our ego mind likes that we identify as it. And so the more that we see problems, the more it feels like, well, yeah, this is the right tool for the job. Um, and, you know, more generally, I'd say I think we're wired for threat, like we're wired to perceive threat. You know, it's tricky being human 'cause we have all these different brains. In some way, it's not like our brain evolved in the sense of like one thing just got, you know, improved over time. It's more like there was this like reptilian brain and then this mammalian brain wrapped around it and then this prefrontal cortex came on top. So it's like we're like all these different species in one. And so a lot of our more primitive parts of our brain are primarily concerned with the question, "Am I dead yet?" And like, you know, we're wired for survival, we're wired to perceive threat. And so our sort of default is to scan the world and look for what's wrong, what's threatening. And we're really good at it, so we identify problems. And, you know, a lot of the work that I do is rooted in, um, the, you know, from the Conscious Leadership Group, and we can talk more about that. And, you know, probably worth spending a minute on this core distinction that they call above the line and below the line, and I'll dovetail it to this question of problems. So, uh, oh, this un— this unpacks a whole nother can of worms. Um, all right, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go the way I usually do it, so I'm gonna go way back to Let's first, and I promise I'll come back to the problem question, let's first distinguish distinction. So if I open up the hood of my car, I see like a blob of engine stuff. And so I don't have much power to do anything about that, right? I can't soup it up, improve it, you know, figure out if it's not functioning, you know, what to do. But if a trained mechanic opens up the hood of my car, opens up the hood of my car, they'll see these distinct parts, you know, flowing together in a way that gives them power to actually do something about it. So one way to look at my journey over the last especially 15 years is identifying some of the distinctions that give us power over our experience as human beings. Right? And so, one of my favorite distinctions is— I'll share two. One is context versus content. So, I was coaching for, I think, about 5 years before I discovered the Conscious Leadership Group. And I had this experience where sometimes the coaching would feel like so rich and transformational and enlivening for me and for them. And then other times it would be like, just like, like I'm chipping away at something. It is just like stuck and, or like we make incremental progress, but it felt like things weren't fundamentally different. And it was actually pretty frustrating for me because I wasn't clear on what the distinction was as to why sometimes it was so enlivening for me and transformational for them, and sometimes it wasn't. And so I go to this workshop, this like weekend retreat, um, sponsored by, you know, put on by the Conscious Leadership Group with Diana Chapman and Jim Dethmer, who've become dear beloved friends and mentors of mine. Um, so much of what I'm about to say I just learned from them. Uh, and, um, they present this distinction of context versus content, right? So the way I believe they presented is, if your life is a movie, what's on the screen is the content, and the lens through which you're viewing it is the context. And so what I realized is, ah, if I just focus with clients on the content, right, and try to kind of help them to fix the content and, you know, essentially change the conditions of their external reality, in my case mostly startup CEOs, right, change something about the way they're interacting with people or leading or, you know, like that, without addressing their context, the lens from which they're experiencing it, it wasn't transformational. It was like playing whack-a-mole, like we sort of addressed one issue and then it would come up in different ways. And so, that was really profound and exciting for me because I was like, "Oh, that's why, you know, that's why I sometimes love it and sometimes don't." So, that's largely why I have spent so much of the last decade using and leaning into the Conscious Leadership Model. And I was part of the group for a while and just love though, their work and, and starting with that distinction. So then if we sort of double-click on context, it brings us to this distinction of above and below the line. So the language is arbitrary but useful. Imagine a horizontal line and, um, it demarcates, it distinguishes two different states of being that humans tend to operate from most of the time. Below the line is a state of threat in which we experience life as happening to me, and therefore, you know, our ego gets activated, right? We're often in fight-or-flight mode. Our ego tends to associate its value with certainty and being right. So from below the line, a state of threat, we want to be right, we want to be certain, and we're essentially looking for like What is wrong with the world that's causing me to feel the way I feel? Right, this is where the problem thinking comes from. It's like my wellbeing is at the effect of something that's outside of me, and those are the problems that I'm seeing. And if life was just different in this way, then I'd be okay. But because life is this way, because I lost money instead of made money, because I'm having conflict with my co-founder, because this person on my team is acting this way, whatever it is, Because of the traffic, I'm upset, I'm suffering. And so most people, most of the time, are operating in a state of threat unconsciously, right? Like fish in water, you know, what the heck is water? So that's what I love about doing this particular work is it's like I get to often be the one to say, hey, there's this distinction that you've been unaware of, and when you become aware of it, you have choice, right? Awareness leads to choice. That there's this other way of being called, we call, you know, above the line for just convenience of language, a state of presence, a state of trust in which you're neither resisting what is, right? I often say to clients, when you resist reality, reality always wins, right? But that's essentially what we're doing when we're calling something a problem We're saying this thing about reality should be different than it is. And that's just a story that our minds make up and then we believe. So from above the line, we're— we let go of resisting what is, and we let go of attachment to some future that we imagine, because we no longer believe that our well-being is dependent on that particular future. And that's what allows us to let go of attachment. So that's, I guess, what I mean by what if there are no problems is what if you could let go of resistance and just accept reality just as it is, accept yourself just as you are. And usually the next question— and I want to give you space to ask questions, but, um I have this conversation a lot. Often the next question is, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. If I just accept everything as it is and say like there's no problems, like what's going to motivate me to do anything?" Right? And in some way it's funny because it's like this self-referential idea that the ego says things aren't okay the way they are, but could be okay in the future. So if you just get in action out of fear and lack because they're not okay, then maybe you could create some time in the future a place where you could be content when finally you've gotten your life circumstances to be just the way your ego mind thinks they should be. That make sense? Like, if only you solved all the problems, then you would be peaceful, and so you better go solve all the problems because your peace depends on it. And It's self-referential because the very idea that you have problems is what creates the motivation to go solve those problems, which you think you need to solve because you think you have problems. Anyway, um, will you become a couch potato? That's really the question. You know, a lot of my clients are entrepreneurs, right? And they're like, they've spent their lives being extremely motivated, intensely motivated, right? And believe that a lot of their success comes from that motivation. So, this is when I typically introduce this idea around tension. And the idea is that we intuitively sense that tension is a powerful motivator because tension by its nature seeks to be resolved. So, what most people do inside themselves and then when they lead others is they create tension based on fear and lack. Fear in the sense of this is a problem, this is bad, this is not how it should be, right? And then that's lack. And then fear in the sense of if we don't fix this, these bad things will happen. We'll fail, we'll run out of money, you'll get fired, et cetera. So most people create tension based on either lack or fear, and it works. That's why we do it. It motivates us, but it has this toxic residue and is ultimately unfulfilling because when you're in that state, the things you do from that state don't actually change your state. You kind of stay stuck in that cycle. So there's this alternative form of tension that I first heard about from Peter Senge, the MIT professor, but is— oddly not that well known. Like, it's, it's quickly becoming one of my favorite frameworks called creative tension. And creative tension is generated when you have two things present at the same time: current reality, but like, you're grounded in current reality, like you accept reality as it is, no problems, nothing wrong, it's just this, it is what it is. Oh, we said we'd hit $10 million in sales, but we hit $7 million. Okay, so we're at $7 million. It just is what it is. And your desired future state. So when you are present to current reality with acceptance and imagining a desired future state without attachment, but just as like a vision for what could be, almost like a game, right? It's like, here's where we are, here's where we want to get to. And that desired future state is actually desired and inspiring, the— our brains, I think, can't really tell the difference between what we see and what we visualize. And so there's some cognitive dissonance there, and our subconscious minds go to work on bridging the gap between the two. And I think that's what generates creativity, right? So it's like, I'm here, I imagine being here, and so all of a sudden now we're— it's called creative tension because it, it results in creativity and inspired action. So you actually don't need there to be anything wrong with the current reality to be inspired by this desired future state. And this is like a fractal that I think is one of the most powerful and important leadership tools that there is because most people are spending most of their time either resisting what is, I wish it was different, and, Sometimes I say like they collapse the desired future state into the present, right? Oh, I wish I had more money now. I wish I was skinnier. I wish I had a, you know, I was married or had a spouse or, and it's such a waste of energy because you're just wishing your current reality was different than it is, but it's not, instead of putting the desired future state in the future where it's possible and putting your energy around creating it.

That was like a masterclass that I feel like if you— there were parts that like, I can't wait to rewind that and rewatch it multiple times because so much of what I try to do with my own life, with this podcast, is what you just explained in those first 15 minutes. So thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Now, how do we get better at identifying above the line, below the line, and what even is the line? What does the line represent?

Um, I notice I have a few more thoughts coming around creative tension and— please, let me go there real quick and then I'll answer you. Uh, there's an important distinction to make between the present and the future, and by corollary, between acceptance and resignation. 'Cause this is something that trips people up a lot, so I just wanna name this. I say, "Can you accept yourself just as you are? Can you accept the circumstances just as you are?" And sometimes people will be like, "Well, no, like there shouldn't be child poverty, right? There shouldn't be murder, war, right?" And I get where they're coming from because it feels like I don't wanna accept that, right? It feels like resignation or acquiescence or a recipe for apathy. And what I find is the opposite is actually true. So it's really important when I say accept, acceptance, I mean, can you accept what is and what has been? Because the past and the present are just, they're part of the written record now, right? They're just part of reality. And that's sort of paradoxically when you accept what is, like I jokingly like to say, like you can't get there until you're here, right? It's like when you accept what is, now you can be here in the present, and from there you can then create some future that you want. So I'd love to stand for a world with equality, with no war, with kindness and love. And when I resist that, that's not the world we already have. I actually enter a state of consciousness that is more commensurate with war and conflict than with peace and love, right? So be the change you want to see in the world. If I can accept everything as it is, I enter a state of peace from which I'm more available to create peace in the world, as an example. There's one more thing I want to say around— I just want to honor that the creative tension framework is a paradox. And when— and we'll talk about below— when we're in a state of threat, identified as our ego, as our self-image, we tend to think in either/or, in binary, right? And it's related to like separation, oneness, right? It's like, it's part of the fabric of that experience as we think of things as either/or, as polarities. And so a lot of people like, wait a minute, how can I accept everything just as it is? Or let's just talk about ourselves. How can I accept myself just as I am and then at the same time imagine like a different version that I want to achieve, right? An even better version. It's a paradox and we are capable of holding that paradox. And I think in doing so, that's what allows that creative tension to occur. Okay. Above and below the line. Yes. So let's see, one metaphor that, uh, a lot of clients find useful, um, is— it's not, it's not perfect, but it's useful. Imagine you're floating down the river of life and you trust the river. You know, then you can kind of like, ah, you know, you can kind of kick back, pretty relaxed, right? You might be curious and intrigued, like, oh, where's it taking me? But it's a— you're in a pretty peaceful state, right? Because you trust the river. And then out of the corner of your eye, you see a log that looks like a crocodile. And our minds being, you know, as they are, you think, you think it's a crocodile. Well, now you're in a really different state, right? Now you're like swimming upstream, right? Like trying to control where you end up, maybe holding on for dear life to a branch so you don't go forward toward it. It's not actually a crocodile, right? This is what's so pernicious, I think, about our wiring is that we're like wired for a threat level 10, even though we live in a world where threat level is actually 1. I think that's because our neurobiology doesn't— hasn't evolved that much, even though our environment has. So we think we see this crocodile. Now we're in this state of threat. It's not a real threat, but we perceive it. And so you can kind of imagine your experience. You're bracing against the river, right? You're constricted. So I can often feel in my body whether I'm above the line in a state of trust, presence, right? Like, am I here now or am I paying attention to this crocodile that in the future I think is gonna attack me and eat me? Right? So I'm scaring myself and I'm in threat. And my mind wants to be right that it's a crocodile, even though it's not, right? I believe that story and then I'm in fear. So that's kind of the dynamic of it. It's like, am I bracing against life? And that's like resisting life, resisting what's happening. Or am I open, curious? Another way to think about it is, I don't think I mentioned this, life hap— below the line, my stance is life happens to me, right? I think maybe I did mention this. Above the line, life happens by me. So the shift from below the line to above the line is in taking responsibility for that which you previously have not taken responsibility. And what I mean, what the Conscious Leadership Group means by the word responsibility is seeing yourself as the creator of the experience. So I like also to just think, if you break down the word responsible, like response able, able to respond, it's like if I'm walking and, you know, around my block and I trip on a root and I'm like, damn it, why is there a root? You know, why is the, you know, the darn street people never come and they don't do their job right now? I'm like blaming I'm not actually learning. And by contrast, if I take responsibility, like, oh, I just tripped, you know, how did I create that experience? Well, I was looking at my phone, you know, and like I wasn't paying attention. Then if I'm walking around the block again or somewhere else, I'm better able to respond to that situation by maybe getting off my phone or, you know, knowing that the, you know, the branches there are not tripping over, the roots there are not tripping over it. So, all that is to say, when we take responsibility, we become better able to respond to the same kind of situation in the future because we see ourselves as the creator of it. And if it's like, "If I created it, well, that must mean I have the power to create something different." So, it's sort of ironically when you're below the line believing that it's happening to you and you want to blame other people and circumstances and conditions. You, you actually disempower yourself, right? When you blame others, you kind of hold it that like, well, it's their fault, therefore there's nothing I can really do about it because I can't necessarily change other people. When we take responsibility, it's actually an act of self-empowerment. Like, I created that. I see myself as the creator of my experience, and therefore I can create something different if I have a preference for something different.

What about like taking it to the extreme? And going to like the Holocaust, like the person created their experience by being in the Holocaust, like how, you know, yeah, should they take responsibility for it? Like, I just like, I just like going to the extreme so that we can think about it, really understand.

Totally. Yeah, the, the, what comes up for me is we're not trying to, I'm not trying to deny sort of the reality that there are victims, right? Like a child is, is, you know, harassed or like the Holocaust, like there are victims. So it's not like this Pollyanna, let's stick our head in the sand and it's like, oh, it's all good. Um, and I want to stand for a world where like nothing like that could ever happen again, where people, you know, meet each other with unconditional love and don't other one another and blame and scapegoat. And there's a difference between being a victim, like a victim of a crime, a victim of a genocide, and victim consciousness. I think that's an important distinction to make here. It's like, and even just for an individual, like, you know, I've been in some sessions where like someone else was facilitating or coaching and was this is heavy to talk about, but like someone who was molested as a child or raped, and it's tragic, it's horrible, it's deeply saddening and infuriating. And again, if I was ever in a position to actually see that happening, I'd like to believe I would step up and do what I can to protect and create the world that I want. So it's, there's no, invitation for apathy to, you know, what's happening in the world. And I have seen human beings who've had that experience who have been living their life in victim consciousness, right? The experience happened a long time ago. So the question is, now, in your now experience, are you living as a victim of that thing that happened to you in the past? Without denying that it happened, but if you're living as as if I'm at the effect of that thing that happened to me in the past now, and you are willing to look at it and see how you're creating that experience for yourself, you can shift and create a different experience where you feel like, for example, let's say you made up a story in that moment that you were unworthy, you know, or yeah, I mean, I think imagine like there's a lot of shame, like how could I let that happen to me, right? I'm bad, I'm unworthy. Well, the experience itself, like if we, like what actually happened is not what you're carrying around with you. The stories you made up about yourself when that experience happened are what you're carrying around with you. And if you're willing to look at that and take responsibility in the sense of, oh, I see how I'm creating an experience of suffering for myself now at this age from something that happened to me long ago. It ends up being an act of self-empowerment of like, oh, I can let go of those stories. I made up those stories about myself to cope with this horrible thing that happened. I don't need to carry them around anymore. And actually shift your experience from I'm, you know, forever in victim consciousness and my life is forever at the effect of this thing that happened a long time ago to that happened and I get to create my experience and it's actually liberating. So it's meant to be empowering and liberating, not, not like blame the victim or deny, you know, that reality. Does that address that question for you?

Yeah, it does. I'm curious, like, what advice you would have for somebody like who was in that situation, like in a prolonged period? Like, God forbid we never end up like in a Holocaust-like situation. But like, if it's prolonged suffering that you don't choose, which seems unimaginable to our modern-day humans in some way, if you're listening to this podcast, potentially, I hope, I pray that that seems unimaginable. But that is the reality of what has happened. So that gives us an indication that it could happen again. And if I'm in that position and I want Dave Kashen on my shoulder, what if I'm in unchosen suffering for a long time? How do I best cope with that?

Physical suffering, or let's say someone has cancer or— Right. I think there are, I don't like to spend too much time thinking about them, but there are certain possibilities with climate that we could be in a world where there's a lot of catastrophe and physical pain. There was something I was gonna share. Well, one thought that came to mind is Viktor Frankl's book, A Man's Search for Meaning, right? So it was directly Holocaust. Holocaust survivor talking about how your inner experience and perspective shapes even an experience like that. So this is one resource that came to mind. I, in some way, the answer is no different than what I've shared already. So I'll be provocative here. Consider that facts don't create suffering. So fact is horrible, right? In concentration camp, you know, so extreme that it's like probably piss people off talking about it, but I think it's worth exploring as a thought, you know, a thought experiment. Or let's say, you know, someone has cancer. Like, many of us probably know two different people with cancer, one of whom is totally in victim consciousness, "Oh, poor me," and another of whom is like, "Oh my God, life is sacred. I'm going to spend the remaining time that I have, you know, really making the most of it." And like, it's a really different choice of how to experience the same phenomenon. And look, you know, unless there's dramatic innovation around aging, which maybe, um, odds are we are all going to die, right? Which most people don't want to face, but I think facing it can actually make life more sacred. So, you know, then we take a step back from death, and now what you're talking about is kind of like pain, right? What if you're in chronic pain for a long time? Um, like, I want to acknowledge, like, I I think it would take a lot for me to get to a place of peace and acceptance. I think that, you know, maybe the Buddha, Ram Dass, like there's people who've devoted themselves and there's people, you know, who've lit themselves on fire, right? Like there are human examples where humans have gotten to a place of such depth of sense of knowing of who they are, you know, typically I think in a very spiritual sense, and/or like the capacity to fully accept every experience in every moment, that they could be with even experience like physical torture or chronic pain. So I think it is possible for human beings through cultivated effort to get to a place where even if you're in a concentration camp or suffering from chronic pain or cancer, to just in every now moment accept what is and even get curious and accept the sensations in your body. Because again, even pain arguably is a story. Although my wife warned me when she was giving birth to our children not to say, "Oh honey, it's just sensation. It's not pain." Because we definitely code it as pain and have a strong wiring to avoid pain. So I acknowledge that aspect of being human. And again, I'm no— I'm not like, oh, I can just take pain easily. I'm not at that point. But I think it is possible for humans to experience what most of us would call pain with relative equanimity by the same exact process of learning to just stay in the now moment and be with what is, including physical sensations that you would historically think of as painful. And there are some interesting, like, I haven't done it, um, but people who do like S&M, right, like report— like, what's that? Oh, uh, sadomasochism, like sexual torture kind of stuff— that report that pain becomes pleasure, you know, like that there's this kind of this thin line. Um, or I, I know women who have reported— and other women will probably hate those women— um, childbirth being an orgasmic experience. So I think there are these possibilities that when we fully accept all the physical sensations and don't resist them, that we don't experience them as painful. That it might be the resistance to the sensation that we experience as pain, not the sensation itself. And, um, so I think it is possible for humans to even experience a situation like that with equanimity. Um, and I'll share a more personal example. That I have actually experienced. So, I did a psilocybin journey a year or so ago. I hope that's okay to share. Is it illegal to have done that? Anyway, and I, very sacred, set intentions, but my stomach was kind of hurting leading up to it. And I was nervous that the whole experience for me was going to be about my stomach hurting and feeling uncomfortable. So right before we, in this case, drank the tea with the mushrooms, I ate some raw ginger and I was like, oh, maybe that'll calm my stomach. And I forgot how spicy ginger is or can be. And so my throat was kind of burning and, you know, I think I haven't studied it extensively, but I think one of the things that psilocybin does is it amplifies your experiences and your sensations, which allows you to feel and access something that's normally too subtle to feel and access, namely this kind of field of love consciousness. But it also amplifies all the sensations in your body. So my throat is just burning. Like burning, and I'm having difficulty breathing, and I am scared. And at some point, I actually think I might die. Like, I, like, I thought I might die. And I'm at this point, I'm very scared. And I, um, and I was doing a little bit of this, like, inner warrior. I was like, okay, like, I'm aware that the breath is used as a tool for meditation because you can either breathe automatically, or you can choose to control your breathing. So I was doing this thing with myself where I was like, okay, you know, be tough, Dave, like be a warrior. Don't force yourself to breathe. Can you just surrender? Just surrender and trust your body to breathe. So I'm like in it, and I'm like, surrender, surrender, trust, and I'm not breathing, and I'm not breathing, and it's getting more intense. And then I'm like, and I forced myself to breathe, and I'm like, damn it, you wuss, like you didn't, You didn't do it. And I remembered that I had one of my intentions for the journey was to have like a gentle experience. And I was like, you're not being gentle. And I also remembered, I haven't talked about this, but the 4 steps in conscious leadership are awareness, acceptance, willingness, shift. And we can talk more about this if it feels useful. But basically like awareness, I'm below the line, acceptance. I can accept myself for being below the line in a state of threat, and then am I willing to shift? And there's a bunch of willingness questions you can ask related to these 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership that you can read about in the book, The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership. Anyway, so I'm kind of thinking about this as I'm tripping and scared. I'm like, wait, acceptance. Okay, hold on. Can you just accept yourself for being scared? Because I was kind of in this mode of like, don't be scared. "Dave, just trust." And I was like, "Okay, I'm scared. Can I just accept myself for being scared and wanting to control my breathing so I stay alive?" So, I started calming down a little because I accepted myself. And then I had this realization that was like, I mean, this is pretty extreme, right? To your point, I think I'm going to die. My throat's burning. I'm really scared, probably as scared as I've ever been that I'm actually going to die. I had this realization like, okay, hold on. In this now moment, you're not dead. You're not dead. So if you don't let your attention drift to like a moment from now, you're okay. If I go even a moment from now, I'll scare myself. I might die a moment from now. It is possible and then I'll experience what, I guess what one experiences when one dies. But in this now moment, I'm not dead. And so it became this really kind of intense meditation, like rigorous meditation, like just stay here now. Can I just stay here now? And I just kept noticing when I'd shift and just come back to the present moment. And then of course, as I did that, my body started to calm down. It got easier to breathe. And that kind of faded. And then I had a just beautiful, expansive experience after that. But that's why the closest I have personally come to like, you know, this experience where you're— it was, it was in some way torturous in that like I was scared I was going to die. The fear felt very real and gripping. And even in that experience, if I just stay in the present moment, right? And I had this thought like all fear is actually imagined, right? There, I can't actually find fear in the present moment unless I put my attention on the future and imagine something that I resist and don't want to have happen. So yeah, those are my thoughts on your—

I love that. I appreciate that. A great example of this would be like how people experience more PTSD when they watch, uh, like, uh, something bad on the news versus the people who actually have experienced it but haven't watched it on the news. And so that's like, that speaks to exactly what you're talking about. The skill there, from my perspective, is in your ability to come to the present moment. And the reason why I call it a skill is because it's something that I feel like I've very much improved over the past 4 or 5 years since I began meditating. And I'm curious what other practices other than meditation and perhaps meditation is the answer, help you get back to the present moment?

Yeah. So I know a lot of people who meditate, you know, and they spend their 5, 10, 20, 60 minutes on the mat, and then they go to work and they're just, you know, like triggered by you know, what people say, or they're a jerk, or they're people-pleasing, right? They're not conscious, not present. They're in their patterns. And so, I think one of the things that really resonated with me about conscious leadership is it's like off-the-mat meditation, right? It's one thing, and I'm not in any way knocking meditation. I think it is an important tool. Super powerful, um, we could talk about it in different ways, uh, way to build the muscle of exerting conscious control over your awareness such that you can notice when your awareness is drifted to the, you know, the future or the past, somewhere else, and bring it back to present, right, again and again. Um, so I, just to be clear, I meditate, uh, usually I go in my hot tub and do some kind of guided meditation for like 10 minutes most mornings, not every morning. I'm not as rigorous as some. It's 10 minutes, it's not 60. Like, that's just what I do. And my life is a living meditation. And I think that's actually what's made the biggest difference for me. So the question, you know, I'll kind of connect this back to these 4 steps, right? Awareness, acceptance, willingness, shift. So in awareness, There's sort of 4 questions that correspond, right? The first is, where am I? Right? Like the awareness of where am I, specifically meaning am I above or below the line? Am I in a state of threat or a state of presence? To your question, if the second is, can I accept myself for being right where I am? You know, third is, am I willing to shift? Fourth is, how will I shift? But let's just stay with the where am I question. This has become my my North Star. Like, and remember the context versus content distinction. So most people have content out in front, and every once in a while they'll think about context. I've been practicing this for long enough that it switched for me. My primary attention is on context, just literally in the sense of where— what state am I in? I'm— I've built, I guess, the skill the, you know, I've practiced and, and committed and devoted myself to like just noticing moment to moment while I'm doing stuff. We're right here, right now, talking to you, you know, with clients, uh, with my, you know, uh, in-laws, with my, you know, kids, right? Like, am I— where am I? Where am I? And what I have found is that by making that primary, it's like the, the rising tide that raises all the boats. Like, I'm a better father, a better husband, a better coach, a better business partner, a better investor, like all the things. So for me, it's made a lot of sense to have that be primary. Like, I think about it even before my role as a husband, father, um, and that, that practice of not just in the morning doing the 10 or 20 or 60 minutes quiet when the conditions are just perfect and everything's still, but in the wild, right, when I'm like being with people, can I notice, oh, I just got triggered or triggered myself, I experienced threat, now, you know, I see my patterns kicking in. And I like to, I share with, almost all my clients this story that I'll share with you now about this Aikido master. And the Aikido master is in the center of the room and they're doing this demonstration where all the students are coming at him and attacking him and he just like flicks them off like flies, like in this Zen, you know, posture. And at the end of the class, one of the students comes up to him and is like, "Master, master, like this is amazing. How do you stay centered this whole time while we're all like attacking you. And the master says, oh, I don't stay centered, I just recover so quickly you can't tell.

That's good.

So I don't believe that— I mean, maybe a Buddha, the Buddha, like, I don't know that I'm on that path, and I don't need to be, that like I'm going to be present in every moment. I'm just playing the game of how quickly can I notice and shift, and notice and shift. And I can't always shift right away, and I give myself grace and compassion of like, okay, right now I'm just— I'm a human, I'm in a state of threat. And like, I had this experience recently where, um, we moved to Sun Valley 3 years ago, and, um, you know, community is really important to me. We had this amazing community back in California. We felt called to move here. We love it here, but we're still like, you know, we have a lot of friends. Um, I like having like a crew of friends, and there's this group of like 3 other families. That's probably the closest thing that I have or that we have to like a crew that where we all hang out together. And I love it when we do. And you can imagine like coordinating 4 busy families can be challenging logistically. So, you know, we had just gotten back from a trip. So I maybe was particularly, you know, 3-week trip. So I was like particularly sensitive, like, who are my people here? Right? Like my sense of community. And my wife tells me, oh, this group planned this, like, we're gonna go float this lazy river. On Friday. And I'm like, what? Like, we've been gone, I rescheduled all these clients for Friday, like, I can't make it. And basically it works for everybody else but not for me. And I'm like, well, we could have done it at a time where it worked for everybody else except for a different person than me, right? So I'm like, I'm starting to— now I'm below the line. I'm making up stories that like, they maybe they don't care about me being there, maybe they don't even like me. And there was another time where the group all did something without me and they kind of half-jokingly refer to it as like, "Oh, it's the most fun night ever. Oh yeah, you missed it," right? It's like they're poking, but like, I'm like, "Ah." So I really, I was way below the line. My mind made up these stories. They don't care about me. They don't love me. And then I texted the group and I was like, "Hey guys." I ended up rescheduling all my clients, which is, you know, You know, took something, but I wanted to be there, so I was like, fine, I'll do it, which is probably a hero move on my part. We could talk about victim, villain, and hero at some point. And I was like, hey guys, could we, going forward, like whoever's planning, you know, our event, would you mind just sending out a calendar invite? Like, that would make my life way easier because some of my clients schedule themselves on my calendar, and if there's a hold, that won't happen, I won't have to reschedule. And the responses were like, "Uh, no, like we're not your secretary, Dave." Like pretty like, you know, like, and I was, then I was even more triggered. I was like, "Oh my God, like they just don't care about me. They can't spend 5 seconds, you know, like to send out a calendar invite." And so I was really in it. Like in that moment, I believed like they don't like me very much, they don't care about me, And, you know, it probably triggered like, what's wrong with me? Am I unlovable? Right? Like deep kind of pattern stuff. And what I— well, I just alluded to this thing called the drama triangle. So this psychologist named Stephen Karpman discovered that when we're in a state of threat, identified as our ego, we tend to see the world through this archetypal drama triangle. Which includes victim, right? Oh, poor me, they don't care about me. Villain, like these assholes, like can you believe how rude they're being and how insensitive? And then hero, like, all right, I'll just reschedule it. I'm sure they don't mean anything by it, but like I'm still in it, you know? And we just kind of cycle through drama. So, you know, this is what I do, obviously as a coach. So I coach myself. I literally pulled up a note on my phone and I wrote out my drama triangle. And I was like, screw you, you're such a jerk for saying that. And then I blamed myself. I was like, what is the matter with you, Dave? Are you in middle school? Oh, poor you, they didn't invite you to a thing. So I kind of went all the way into my drama triangle, like wrote it out. And then I said, oh, can you accept yourself for being scared, right? For sourcing your sense of approval and belonging out there with them. And I shifted and I realized like, oh, I just made up those stories that this means something about their love of me, my lovability. And if I could let go of those stories, this isn't a problem, and return to presence. So that was just an example of like my practice. And I've gotten to the point, you know, the second question is, can you accept yourself for being below the line? Where not only can I accept myself, but I almost like look forward to it because the primary game that I'm playing in life is can I be present, above the line, in a wider and wider variety of circumstances? And so when life presents circumstances that I can't yet be present with, I'm like, "All right, like this is showing me there's still a part of me that's sourcing my sense of belonging and approval out there from other people." as an invitation to learn to just source it within. And I have grown already from that experience, and I can source my sense of belonging and acceptance more and more internally for having had that experience. And that's— in that way, you can start to see everything that happens. This is why it's like, it doesn't happen to me, it happens by me. Or I sometimes like to say, it happens for me. Because I can start to see everything as here for my growth in my ability to be present, right? Life becomes my classroom. It will show me the places that I can't be present with so that I can learn to be present with them. And I don't even have to necessarily believe in any mystical intelligence. It's just if the game I'm playing is learning to be present, well, naturally, whatever I'm not present with is here for my learning to learn how to be present, right? So in that way, I can see everything is happening for me and for my growth and learning. So it becomes this like self-referential, um, coherent game that I love to play and I find is very enlivening.

It is a beautiful game. And, you know, some might argue that it's the reason we're here is to play that game. Uh, you know, you mentioned the, the mystical intelligence piece of it, and the reason why I bring this up is because in doing research for this, I noticed that one of your limiting beliefs is that like spirit isn't real, and that this came up for you in some way. And mystical intelligence, you could call it spirit, you could call it God, I don't know, whatever works for you. But I'm curious what, what spirit is to you and why you have trouble accepting it as real or talking about it in any way.

Okay. Let me back up a little bit. Um, I was raised Jewish. I'd say Jew-ish. Um, yeah, like we went to synagogue on high holidays occasionally. That was pretty much it. Um, I was bar mitzvahed and I don't know if I realized it at the time, but I grew up, I think, kind of resenting it and maybe almost hating it for what I felt like was just total hypocrisy. And like the— just like the pomp and circumstance of it. I was like, I don't understand Hebrew. I'm sitting here and they're saying these prayers that I literally don't understand what they're saying. Like, what is this? And I didn't feel any connection to God or anything, so it just felt like a thing that my parents made me do. And I didn't see them all that connected to spirit or God. They didn't seem to have that as like a positive force in their life. So it just kind of felt like annoying and like, oh, I have to dress up in these uncomfortable clothes. And so I had a pretty negative— and I think I've had a view of that, like, certain organized religion can actually be quite divisive. And, um, and, uh, ah, I'm gonna share one thing real quick as it's just coming up that I meant to share earlier around your Holocaust question. Um, there's this, um, some, some talks I've listened to by Carl Jung who says that like one of the most powerful things we can do as human beings is embrace our shadow. And because if we don't, we'll project it out there. And so kind of his view of like Nazism and Hitler was like, by not embracing his own shadow, his own parts that he judges as negative, he projected that out, out there onto the Jewish people. And that's actually what led to— so to come back a little bit to that question, Again, it's like, I think as we embrace all parts of ourselves, and I really love the idea of projection because one of the practices I do is, can I see the things I have an aversion to in other people as a reflection of a part of myself I haven't fully loved or appreciated or integrated, right? So for me, Donald Trump was a really valuable ally in this. Politics aside, from my perspective, he is not committed to integrity in the way that some other people are, says things that maybe he knows to not be true. And, you know, I notice a real aversion to that. And so I used it. I was like, oh, okay, can I find the one in me who lies sometimes to manipulate or get what I want. I'm like, yeah, I can find that. Or the one who dominates other people, like my children sometimes, 'cause I just want them to do what I say. And so it's like, if I see it out there, Diana used to say, "You spot it, you got it." It's like, if I see it out there, can I find it in here? And then just accept that's my humanity. And the irony, the paradox is the more I accept those parts of myself, the less they need to come out, right? And like slip out in unhealthy ways. So, you know, there's a— I'm going to butcher it a little bit, but one of my favorite quotes is a Martin Luther King quote. It says something like, "You can't fight darkness with darkness. Only light can do that." Right? "You can't fight hate with hate. Only love can do that." So that's why I keep coming back to this idea of presence. And I view a state of presence to be synonymous with a state of love. There's like an unconditional nature to it, unconditional acceptance, that like the best way I can serve the world is by being in a state of love, and then from there seeing what there is to do. So I just want to come back around to that a little bit. So, okay, so I'm on this journey, Judaism. I would say I was probably agnostic for most of my life, or not even, you know, even not even actively agnostic, is it was sort of like N/A. Like I just didn't really think about religion, spirituality, God, just doing my thing. Frankly, for 25 years, I think I was operating with a story that I was unworthy and was just trying to prove my worth by working as an investment banker and a hedge fund guy. And even like my first, you know, going to like the best schools and all that, even my first startup, I think I was still just trying to— I was like in Silicon Valley and what's the hottest thing you can do is start a startup. And like, I was all just trying to prove my worth. So that was kind of where I was focused, very ego-driven, very much just trying to like prove I was worthy inside of a story that I wasn't. The story wasn't actually true, right? I think I tweeted today something like, you can't fill an imaginary void, right? It's like I made up that I was not worthy, so no amount of accomplishments is ever gonna overcome the fact that it's a— I made up that story, right? What will is letting go of the story. So that, you know, some of my— I guess I'm starting to give you kind of the arc of my journey, but I did a program called the Landmark Forum, and in it they had us look at like what happened as distinct from the stories you make up about what happened, which I alluded to earlier, and could you let go of those stories? And so I let go of the story that I was unworthy and created the possibility of living an authentic life. That led me to coaching because I realized that's what I really wanted to do. I quit the company that acquired us, started coaching. We just had our first kid. Everyone thought I was crazy leaving all this money on the table, but I was like, "I know what I'm here to do. I got to go do it and stop making this choice of like money and worthiness and proving over authentic purpose." So, I was coaching for many years and— oh, I should also mention, I struggled with depression for most of my life. Gratefully, relatively mild, periodic, every 4 to 6 weeks I would get gray and I did not like it. And so I want to name that because I think it was part of my fuel for a lot of the work that I do. My mom used to get depressed when I was little. So I think this question of like, why is it so hard to be happy as an adult human being was really central. And, you know, look what I do now. So, again, right, like the hero's journey of like your kryptonite becomes your strength. But it's important because I think it partly fueled me because I would— and it was hard, especially as an entrepreneur, because I would like not know which version of me was going to show up on the day I had like a pitch or something, right? Am I going to be my like charismatic or am I going to be depressed and have to fake it? And it was really hard. So, I was pretty motivated to like— transcend that, right? Like, you know, that experience. And I was coaching and I was wanting to serve others. And I had, um, a bunch of friends who I really deeply trusted and respected, um, do medicine journeys, take drugs, do psychedelics, um, and report back to me these like utterly profound experiences. They're like, oh my God, I've seen these truths that like I can't believe I didn't know before. And so I felt, and to be clear, I've been prudish most of my life. I remember the like, this is your brain, this is your brain on drugs commercials. No, I barely drank alcohol, barely smoked pot. So it was a big leap for me, but I felt called, I guess. I felt intrigued enough that like, okay, I really respect these people. They're not doing it recreationally in a way that like wouldn't feel right for me. They're doing it in these like sacred ways. So I ended up— to try to make a long story shorter— I tried mushrooms, ate some mushroom chocolates, had a lovely, probably a relatively light dose. It was my first time doing anything like that. Had like a, I'd say, a lovely experience, a lot of like self-acceptance, which I think I really needed at the time. I remember like laughing uncontrollably for like an hour and a half straight, which was fun. I couldn't talk, I was just like laughing. And I was with like 5 of my like dear beloved male friends, like really nourishing, nurturing group of guys. So it was like a beautiful experience. I wouldn't say it was profound and life-altering, but it was maybe you could say my gateway drug. 'Cause then 1 year later, there was 11 of us, I think, same house up in Tahoe, I decided to try LSD. And again, I was very scared. I was very intentional. I wrote my intentions in my journal, which was basically like connect with something beyond ordinary reality, source, spirit. And I—

Why was that your intention?

What's that?

Why was that your intention?

—Because I heard people talking about it in a way that sounded really meaningful and moving, and I'd never experienced it, and it felt totally conceptual to me. And I was like, I want to actually experience it because I, I'm not a big fan of like having to believe something. I think that's partly what I've resisted around certain religion and like dogma, but I am a big fan of being curious and directly experiencing and and then taking my own learnings for myself around like what I experienced. And so I wanted to experience that directly and sensed that that would be powerful for me. And, oh, and the guys knew that. And so we had a room in the house that they deemed as my sanctuary and like it was my space. And I, so I ingested this LSD, I sat in meditation close my eyes. I think I had an eye mask, and it was just— I was like very intense. I'm going within. Like, it wasn't about, you know, I want to see colors. I was like, I want to go within and see what's here. And, you know, it's hard to describe, people. It's ineffable. Um, the best I can do is to say I felt the boundaries of myself dissolving, and I felt fully immersed in this beautiful, like, white light energy that I code as love for, you know, that word serves me in the way I kind of refer to that experience. And had this sort of knowing that like, oh, this is the fabric of existence, consciousness, the universe, and it's infinite and eternal and beautiful. And, you know, it was a Matrix moment for me. Like, I love the movie The Matrix, right? It's like, you know, like, oh my God, that was a dream, or I was just in the Matrix. Like, it felt that profound. Like, I just woke up and saw something about the nature of reality that I hadn't seen before, that I would simply describe as like, I am love, we are love at our essence. And there was a book called A Course in Miracles that a coach had recommended to me, and I had it on my Kindle. And so I'm, as I'm tripping. Um, my attention went to it and I, there's this workbook called 365 Day Workbook for Students. I literally went through all 365 days and I was like, oh, this is true. And, um, the course starts, I won't, I won't read the whole, I won't recite the whole thing, but not all 365 pages.

No, no.

There, there's an introduction of the course. That's, um, maybe I will. It's something like, um, this is A Course in Miracles. It is a required course. Free will does not mean that you can choose whether to take it, only sort of what you learn when. The Course does not aim at teaching the meaning of love, for that is beyond what can be taught. The Course does, however, aim at removing the blocks from your awareness of love's presence, which is your natural inheritance. The opposite of love is fear, but what is all-encompassing can have no opposite. The Course— what does that mean? Sorry, let me finish it and then I'll go back to it. The Course can therefore be summed up as follows: nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God. I'm not necessarily A Course in Miracles devotee. I don't tell my clients to read it. It's just coming up in this moment because it was really formative in that particular moment that I'm sharing about. In that moment, I felt the truth of that, especially those, those last lines: nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists. So what it meant to me— this isn't true, but what I interpreted that is, is We are love at our essence. Love is this infinite, immutable— well, it's mutable— it's this infinite energy, let's just say. It can't be killed or destroyed or hurt. It just changes form, including death, right? Death is just love changing form from one to another. And for like 6 months, I'm like walking 6 inches above the ground. Obviously not literally. I just feel so light. Like no fear, including of death. Not that I was reckless, but I was just like, "We're just love." It's all, you know, like there's no question of worthiness, of safety, like we're just love. So like, this is just an illusion, right? It's like if you know you're dreaming, you don't have to be scared of what happens in the dream, right? If you're out of the Matrix and you go back in, well, in the Matrix you die if you're— anyway, you get my point. That it just felt— I felt this lightness. And then like 6 months later, I'm like attached to money, you know, insecure. I remember I did another journey, and I've only done a few of these. I don't want to sound like this is like— but it's a funny story. I did this other journey, similar experience of all— like I woke up from the dream of being human, felt immersed in in like the energy that I call love. And then literally 3 days later, I'm like looking at my like crypto portfolio and something went down. I'm like, ah, damn it. And then I'm like, what is wrong with you? You just like, you just found out that you're God and you're still obsessed with money. Like, what is the matter with you? So I share that because, um, I feel like I've been in this dance since having— and it's been That first experience that I described was probably 7 or 8 years ago. It's been a couple years. I actually don't feel called to have those experiences again. I feel like I got what I needed from them, and I think they can become another addiction, right? Oh, I want to feel that high, and that experience is better than this one, so now I have to chase that. So, I just want to name that. For me, I believe you can get to those states and have those experiences without those substances. I've been exploring and curious about that. For me, they were a formative part of my journey. And, um, and then since then it's been like, okay, so now you know that, or at least— and you know, at times my ego, my mind would doubt it, like, well, maybe you were just on drugs, like, you know, you're just hallucinating, like, you know. And there's the school of thought I most resonate with is it's like we walk around with these blinders on and, and the the medicine, the psychedelics, like take off the blinders, right? Shut down your default mode network so you can see more of what's really here. I tend to think that's kind of how it works, but I don't really know. Um, okay, so all that is to say, I had been in this dance of like, so what, right? Like, okay, let's just say I have this knowing that we are love at our— at some essence. Sometimes the way I have viewed it is like it's this cosmic joke or this cosmic game of peekaboo. It's like, "Oh my God!" You know, it's like forgetting and remembering. Like, we're love and then we come here to have this experience and like a core feature of the human experience is our ego mind. And it's a mechanism by which love can experience itself as separate, right? Like, the way I think about it is like, if you're just the one thing that exists, right, if you're oneness— um, I have to credit, uh, one of my mentors, Brian Franklin, with some of this. He shared some of this, um, thoughts with me, and it's really— it's been formative for me. What he said to me is like, your left hand can't have the experience of loving your right hand. Right? So if you're love, if you're oneness, if you're God, like there's actually a set of experiences you can't have if you're just the one thing, right? Like relationship and if you're infinite eternal oneness. So one of the things you might do is create a mechanism by which you perceive yourself as separate, right? Because now I can have like I I could have the experience of loving you, Danny, as a felt lived experience because I perceive you as separate from me. And I like that idea that like, that's what this is about. The ego is a feature, it's not a bug, right? The experience of separateness is part of the experience of being human. 'Cause for a little while I was like, why did we do this? Like if we're actually love, why did we do this to ourselves? Why did we come here and like suffer? Like what? And there's certain, you know, interpretations that it's like, well, it's judgment and it's, you know, they're like— I personally don't resonate with the idea of like a judgmental punishing God or force. I resonate more with the idea that like we came here to have a set of experiences that we couldn't have there. And that's really helped me to gain acceptance because at first I was like, I want to be there. Like, that's such a beautiful Amazing, you know, and I was sort of like, oh wait, maybe if I really wanted to be there, I would have just stayed there. Like, apparently I chose to be here, right? Is one way I think about it, is like having this experience, which kind of all comes back to like, can I just be with what is, right? I'm just here having this experience. And, um, you know, even like, as I said, even the high became like 'Ah, darn it, I wish I was experiencing that instead of this.' Or even when I feel sad sometimes, it's like, 'Ah, darn, I'm sad.' You know, but if I can just be like, 'Oh, sadness is here. I'm just awareness having an experience of sadness,' then I can just be with it. Um, okay, so I would say I've been— until a few months ago, I've been wrestling, maybe would be a way to say it, oscillating between We are love, feeling spiritual, like, you know, I recognize spirit within, we're spirit incarnated, right? I listen to music that says things like that, I'm like, yeah, that's true. And in other moments I'm like, that's just like opiate for the masses bullshit, right? And frankly, the times when I'm most succeeding like, you know, my stocks are up, my crypto's up, my, you know, clients are coming in, is the times I least think about spirit and spirituality. And the times when, like, or that are more challenging is the time when I most think about it, at least historically. I think that may be true for a lot of people. So then my mind is like, yeah, see, it's just opiate for the masses, you know. It's like, it's what losers need, you know, to justify they're not being successful. Like, it's okay, you're just So I'm just telling you, like, this is what my mind has been saying to me at times. And so I've really been wrestling with, like, feeling the connection, but like, I have not historically, until a few months ago, and we'll talk about that, felt the same visceral sense of it that I could feel in deep meditation or psychedelics or other sort of moments But my mainstream day-to-day experience is pretty worldly, mundane, you know, like, so doubt creep in, doubtful thoughts, and that's okay. You know, it makes sense to me that if the ego is the mechanism of separation, that it would say things like, "No, no, that's not real. You're just this separate, you know, physical being. Brain produces consciousness," right? Like, so I, uh, in May, uh, I did this program called the Hoffman Process, and my intention— it's a 7-day immersive retreat. Like, you hand in your phone, your computer, like you're fully just present for 7 days doing your deep work. I heard about it for years, and then like enough people in my world raved about their experience and had done it recently that I was like, yeah, I I just felt like it was time. And I kind of had a few intentions. One was for a couple of reasons, largely around their marketing tactics, I haven't felt compelled to recommend Landmark to a lot of my clients, even though it was for me a profoundly positive experience. So, and I have at times. People who are sensitive to the more aggressive, some say cult-like marketing have a reaction to it, which I understand, have empathy with. So let's put that aside. So I wanted to have some experience that I could recommend to clients like freely and wholeheartedly, and I sense this might be one. So that was one of it, but I didn't want to just go in like observing it, evaluating it, like I wanted to fully play. And so I, I went in with the intention of a few things. One, I felt like I was playing small at times and I wanted to just challenge myself to play a bigger game and be more courageous. And that was one of my intentions. But the other was to kind of deepen my sense of connection to spirit. And because I find when I feel it, you know, in some way, whether it's capital T true or not, I love who I am. I love who I'm being, right? Like, I'm okay with mystery and not knowing all the answers. I think that's actually part of I think it's healthy to just sort of accept that like, I'm not gonna— until I die, I won't really know what happens after you die, right? And that's part of the great mystery. Like, you don't need to spoil the surprise. So here's what I got out of Hoffman. One, I won't go into too much now, but I got to a place where I could feel nothing but love and compassion for my parents and stepparents. Because I sensed I was still holding on to resentment and blaming them for some of my experience and how they were, which was really beautiful experience. And then the other was Hoffman talks about this concept of negative love syndrome. And basically the idea is— and it takes— I should, I should name, like, they start with what could be described as a spiritual stance that we have this love, you know, use the metaphor like this beautiful, brilliant diamond essence quality to us, our highest self, our spiritual self they call it. But then these layers of negative love, they call them pattern, negative love in the sense of get in the way of love, patterns are like mud that get, you know, encrusted on top of the diamond so we can't access our true nature as this like loving, bright being. And so, a lot of the work was on identifying those patterns so that you could clear them out, right? Which is, I think, a beautiful model. And I don't know if we have show notes or something, but I actually shared, okay, we do, shared about my experience. I wrote a Medium post that I really tried to explain, like the frameworks and what I went through. So, I won't get too much into it now. But the thing I wanna share is one of the things that I, identified, like all the patterns are in the way of your connection to spirit, your spiritual self. But I had a pattern of spirit isn't real, like an intellectual pattern, spirit isn't real, a thought pattern, or you can't connect with it without drugs. And so when I noticed or labeled that as like, oh, that's one of my patterns, and then did the work in Hoffman to release the pattern and let go of the story that my mind was making up that it's not real or I can't connect with it, I actually felt that same energy, a much more subtle version of that same energy that I have felt in those peak moments. And I can feel it now and I can feel it moment to moment that there's some, I don't know what it is, there's some, it feels to me like this uplifting energy that feels like the essence of who I am. That has qualities inherent to it like peace and joy and aliveness and courage. And I don't have to attain that. Like, that's a deeper truth of who I am than the stories I tell myself. So as I let go of the stories and all the noise, I can kind of relax back into that felt sense and all the qualities that come with it. So, like, one of my favorite things to invite clients into is the idea that it's always already here, right? Like, everything you want is— like, if you really think about why do you want all the money, why do you want all the status, why do you want people to know you sold your company for a billion dollars? There's some feeling that we're wanting that we think that that will give us joy, abundance, peace, powerful. Those feeling states are actually just part of our essence of love. And if you clear out the noise, the clutter, the stories, it's what's left over. It's not something you need to attain or get or acquire. It's actually our essence. And so the game almost becomes like dead simple. It's like, can I just, you know, remember that that's actually who I am and relax back into it, let go of all that's in the way, And like, there's nowhere to go. There's nothing to do. Like, it's always already here. And even as I say those words, I'm like reminding myself, I feel myself like settling. I don't know if you can feel yourself like settling back into like, oh, okay. And then because we're human, we perceive something as threatening, and then we get into our ego state, and you know, and then we like the Keto Master, we just drift and then come back and just try to do that faster and faster.

It's interesting because one of the things that I've changed my mind on recently is that sometimes when people are chasing, it looks to the external world, it looks to, from our vantage point, that they're looking for money or fame or whatever it is. Sometimes they're actually in their creative tension. Sometimes they're actually coming from the place of love and serving. But to us in that moment, it just looks like they're playing like they want the love and validation of others, but in reality they are getting the love and validation from themselves by doing the thing for external gain. And I think some people, not everyone, but I do think some people are in their calling, in their truth, in their spirit when they're doing something that looks like they're trying to sell their company or whatever it is for them. How does that resonate with you? What do you think?

It deeply resonates. You can do anything from above or below the line. You can do anything from a state of threat, ego, and from a state of presence, love. So it resonates what you're saying. I don't think you can know from the outside where someone's coming from, and it's easy to judge. And the moment you judge, right, remember, you spot it, you got it. Like I find rather than judging others, can I use everyone else, like you're all, you're all of you are just here for me, as a way to love myself unconditionally? Because when you do something that I don't like, you're just reminding me or pointing me to a part of myself I haven't fully loved as an invitation to love that part. Um, so that's how I would play with those experiences. And, you know, there are times when it— at least I'm probably getting better at predicting where they're coming from, but I don't, you know, I can't be right. I don't know for sure. I don't need to be right about it. That's a big thing, right? When you build a line, you want to be right because you're, you know, your ego is associated with your being right and your value. There's one other thing I want to share, and Maybe I'll come back to that question about like observing others, um, who are kind of what feels like chasing. But I think it's, you know, language is so interesting. There's a few things I want to say, I guess, around language. One is let's try to define the word ego because it gets thrown around a lot. And I think when we have undefined terms, it's not as useful as when we start to like really It's like unexamined, like what do we actually mean by that? And one meaning that I find useful for it is just self-image. Like what's our ego? It's this image we have of who we are. And I find it really useful to recognize like that is a mental construct, right? Just like I might imagine a strawberry or I might imagine some future, I have literally an image of this Dave Kashen guy who's done these things and has this job and has this wife and kids and lives where, you know, and, um, it's, you know, there's this word that I, I've heard that I like called selfing, selfing, like, and the idea is it takes effort to actually construct that image. Like, it's not just inherently, like, it actually takes effort to construct this image of yourself. And I think that's a lot of the root cause is like when we identify as this image, right? Oh, I'm Danny and I'm this podcaster and I have this many followers. And, um, the trap is then if we think that's who we are, then we want to aggrandize that image and avoid anything that diminishes it, right? And so that's why we get defensive, we chase, but There's something I like in the simplicity of just like, that's just an image, it's not like the truth. And even if we put spirituality aside for a second, the only thing that we actually ever experience is like the intersection between our awareness and the now moment. Right, like the past is gone, like I can't put it in a wheelbarrow, like it's gone. The future isn't here yet. So, like, if you want to just pursue truth, it's like, well, the only thing that we can know with some kind of certainty is that we are here right now having an experience. Like, this gets absurd, but it is possible that, like, our past is just a memory chip, you know, just something that we're projecting backwards. Like, that this moment is the only thing that exists. It certainly feels like we're moving through time. But even quantum mechanics and physics are showing a lot of the things that we hold as reality are actually even scientifically proven to not be, right? Quantum entanglement and all these things, even Einstein. So it's like the only thing I can verifiably know is that I am, maybe that's all I can say is I am. It's like I'm here having an experience. So even this mental construct of the past and who I think I am, It's just a made-up mental construct. And so even you said something like source, and I use these words too, like sourcing validation from within. In some way it's even simpler than that. It's just stopping sourcing validation from without. In other words, like when I experience myself as just awareness in the now moment, Like, what's the question? Is awareness, like, worthy? Like, the questions become absurd, right? Like, what's— what am I trying to even, like, seek to be worthy? Like, the experience of being, being of awareness. So I want to just make that point that it's— for me, it's more like, could you rest as awareness that is beyond the question of worthiness and safety and freedom, even is in some— sometimes even more valuable than like sourcing it within, because it starts with like this premise that it's somehow lacking to begin with and I have to source it. So I like to just play with that idea that like there is no lack of security, control, freedom, worthiness. We're just awareness, and awareness is whole, perfect, and complete just as it is.

Yeah, you've said before, and on this topic of, uh, the, the way in which we conflate the— even the name we have and, and our actual essence of who we are— you said one of the use— most useful distinctions in language is the distinction between subject and object. The boy has a ball. The boy is the subject and the ball is the object. In this example, it is clear that the boy is not the ball. The subject is not the object. Similarly, you have thoughts, feelings, and sensations. You are the subject. Thoughts, feelings, and sensations are the objects. You are not the thoughts, feelings, or sensations. You have a body. You are not your body. You have an image of who you are. You are not the image. And I really thought that, that, that was so clear and concise and, and such a useful way to frame what is going on. And so much of our suffering is conflating the image of who we are with who we actually are. Yeah. So thank you.

Yeah, I like that. You're welcome. Thanks for reading it. I like the idea because it really doesn't require any mystical belief, even though I'm getting more comfortable with mystical belief. And someone defined the divine simply as the unknown. It's my favorite definition I've heard. Like, can I just be with— like, there's an unknown, you know, there's an edge to our knowledge. And A few things I wanted to share that were coming up around that. One was language by its nature is divisive. So what I mean by that is when we label something, right, we conceptualize it. Oh, that's a tree, that's a house, I'm Dave, you're Danny. Like, even like That's a table. Oh no, that's a tabletop. Those are table legs, right? Like, it's no less true that it's a table than those are parts of the table, but by labeling the different parts, we distinguish them, right? And languages, as I said at the beginning, distinction is powerful. We use language to distinguish. It's empowering, but it's also limiting in that, you know, Alan Watts is, I think, my favorite philosopher. He often said, it's like, there's just the happening, right? Through another lens, like there's just this moment happening and all the things that are happening in it. And only when we introduce language and describe it, like we can't help but separate, right? Because the moment we label something, we, by doing that, we're separating it from something else. So this idea of language as, inherently separating, I find really useful because all of my thoughts occur in language. Like, that's how I know I'm thinking. I hear a voice in my head saying word— English words in my case, right? And, um, interestingly, if it was saying like Chinese words, it would have no impact on me because I wouldn't understand it, right? So it's like only because it's specific language that I code as like, that means that And so that helps me get to the idea that like, we're not our thoughts, and when we identify as our thoughts, we're inherently experiencing separateness. And so one of the breadcrumbs that I have left myself in most of the recent peak, you know, spiritual experience I've had is, don't try to understand this with your mind. This, this oneness, this experience. It's like, it's a fool's errand. It's a rabbit hole. Because if we designed our ego as the mechanism, it's like, you know, you designed it as the blinders, but then you try to understand what's beyond the blinders with the blinders. Like, that, it can't work. And so that was a trap I went down for a while. And I find that— this is so pithy— the less I think, the more I know. It's like, it's like simplicity on the other side of complexity. Like, if I just let my mind quiet, I can just feel some essential quality that is here even when I'm not experiencing thoughts. So how could I be my thoughts if I'm still here when I have no thoughts?

And, and somehow you feel better when you have no thoughts, like, and better subjectively. But I'm going to meditation. I get what you're pointing to. Yeah, when I'm meditating and there's no thoughts going on, the feeling is peace. That's personal experience.

That is generally my experience as well. And look, we— you know, I love the phrase, "The mind is a terrible master, but a wonderful servant." I don't want to knock the human mind, right? It might be the most extraordinary creation ever created. Our ability to think and imagine that which isn't here, right? Look at our civilization, like it is a gift and most of the time it's on autopilot generating thoughts that aren't all that useful or even true. So, one of my favorite tools from Conscious Leadership is, "Are you willing to see how the opposite of your story might be just as true?" I just ask myself that all the time. The moment I know it's my mind making up a story, Actually, I have a good— I don't know how we're doing. I have a good story around this one if you're— if you want it. Yes. So in 2021, no, between like November of '21 and mid-'22, I lost, at least on paper, about 70% of my net worth. You can imagine it was not a pleasant experience, you know, and I'd got— I'd gotten to a point where I was like, I'm pretty good. Like, I'm in a good spot. I hit my number, you know? Like, I'm in a good place. And then I'm now like at 30% of that, right? 6 months later. And I, just to be clear, I was way below the line, you know, like in the grip of fear and self-criticism. Like, oh my God, what the hell is the matter with you? Why didn't you sell your crypto? Why didn't you diversify more, right? Like, like, you idiot. And my friend actually told me, he's like, I think we're at the top. I'm selling everything and going all cash. Like, in the in November. Like, oh my God, why didn't you listen? You're such an idiot. What's the matter with you? And like, what does this mean for your life now? Are you going to be able to retire? Are you going to have to do things you don't want to do? Start taking on clients you don't want? You know, like, I was really in it. And I remember we were away for the weekend up at this lake— or actually going this afternoon, same lake— um, with friends. And you know, you're just those— like, I couldn't— I like couldn't really engage with them. I was so in my fear and so self-critical. And funny enough, I had coaches ask me, you know, because money's been a thing for me that I've been working on for a while, like I want to let go of my attachment to money for years because I noticed how much I was obsessing over it and attached to it. They said, well, are you willing to see how losing millions of dollars could be just as good as earning millions of dollars, and I'd be like, no way, right? Like, are you kidding me? Like, how? That's like, you know, I know I'm supposed to say yes, but come on, that's stupid, right? So here I am, like, actually having experience. I'm in it, and I was reading, um, either The Untethered Soul, which I love, by Michael Singer, or, or I think maybe his follow-up, Living Untethered. And he uses the term samskara, which is like similar to like these negative patterns. And his point was kind of like, don't let a samskara coming up go to waste, because if you push it back down, it might stay down there for a while. So, I was conscious of that. I went on a bike ride. I remember I was on this bridge and I all but vomited. I was basically dry heaving with fear. But I was like, "I'm just going to let it come." Like, ugh. I was so in it and I just let it come and let it come.

And then— The cause of this was the money?

The money. Oh, yeah. Because there was just another crash that had happened. I was like, I'd sort of mourned this first one and that was even more. I was like, "Oh, God." Like another punch in the stomach. So I was starting to shift, I think, in just like feeling all the fear, just letting it, you know. And then on the way home, my wife asked me, she's like, well, what do you love about yourself that has nothing to do with your money or success? I was like, such an obvious, simple question. I was like, well, I'm just like a, I was like a kind, fun-loving, caring guy. And it was such a poignant moment for me because I really had this like shift. I was like, Yeah, what if that's enough? Like, what if that's really enough? And I can see how the opposite of my story was true. Like, me losing that money, I can genuinely in this moment see, was an absolute gift, and it allowed me to be liberated from my attachment to money in a way that I no other NLP exercise, conscious leadership, like to actually viscerally experience the thing that I was like maybe most scared would happen and like what that would mean about me and my life. It happened and I was like, I'm okay, I'm fine. Like to viscerally know that. And that was like one of the most powerful examples for me of like, my mind just judges reality and judges outcomes and just said, oh, this is the good one, this is the bad one, right? Making money, clearly better than losing money, right? Who would argue with that? And then I lost a bunch of money and I was like, wow, that actually served me better than if I had doubled my money. And that really helped me like embrace this idea that Everything is happening for us. Like, if even that, I could be like, I can truly see how that was for me. Now, it's self-fulfilling because I chose to get present, do my work, use it, alchemize it, see it as a gift, you know, use it to let go of attachment to money, you know, but that's how life is. I think, you know, I had a mentor who said, I don't think we live in a benevolent or a malevolent malevolent universe. I think we live in a mirroring universe, which I think is partially why there's so much discord in the world. It's like we all get to be right, right? If you believe that the, the world is harsh and, and scary and bad, you have that experience. If you believe the world is beautiful and kind, right? And there's some research around like your brain, your reticular activating system, like you just see what you believe, you don't believe what you see.. And so I think we really can largely create our experience and certainly collectively. So I want to share that example of the opposite of my story being just as true as my initial story. So powerful.

Thank you for sharing it. And because, you know, you've shared so much and I'm so grateful for it, like really, like, thank you for your stories. Thank you for your vulnerability and honesty. And truthfulness. You know, I think that a lot of times it happens so fast, our thoughts, that if we don't reflect on them in any way, it can be— it's like almost like a real TikTok feed if someone would just like look at the thoughts. And, and we don't spend time like thinking about what that actually means, where that comes from. And because of that there's such an appreciation I have when talking to someone like yourself who has looked at the feed of their own mind for so long. And it's a rare experience, even though I've done hundreds of these podcast episodes. So thank you for that. Thank you for being you. And, um, there's so much here I want to ask you, so hopefully you'll, you'll come back for a part 2, hopefully in person.

Okay, um, a few more things that are coming to mind, or do you need—

please, absolutely, absolutely. I'm rapping because I want to be Yeah, my time.

Thank you for the— that acknowledgement. I appreciate it. I also noticed my ego really likes it. Um, so a few things. One, there's an exercise that I have done with a group where you literally speak every thought, and it's— I just recommend it. It's super— like, it's hysterical. It's kind of hysterical if you actually— it helps you like see your patterns more clearly. So I just wanted to Serve that up. Another one you alluded to, this one Diana Chapman took me through when as a client she was coaching me. She said, "Imagine you remove the chip in your brain that's responsible for the thought, 'I am Danny.'" I am Dave, Dave Kashen. And just notice what's there. There's nothing there for me. Uh-huh. And what does that nothingness feel like? Peace. Yeah. So that's that. I just like the cut to the chase of that exercise. I wanted to share that. And then I mentioned that Going into Hoffman, one of my intentions was to play bigger. And I asked you before, like, can I, I guess, promote something that's coming up from a place of wanting to serve, like wanting people to be aware of something that might serve them. So one of the things that I felt inspired coming out of Hoffman, I felt I could literally feel my courage in a way that I didn't have access to it before. And so, in that, what I felt called to do was to create courses that are more like public-facing because most of my work has been one-on-one or inside of companies. And I've had a number of clients be like, "Dude, you got to like get yourself out there. Like people would really benefit from this. Like why are you just doing this one at a time?" Even though they're like, "No, keep coaching me but like for other people." So, I have felt this calling for a while to serve more people at once. So, one of the things that I have done that I think might resonate with some of your listeners is created this course called The Inner Game of Entrepreneurship, where I've taken the core frameworks, insights, conversations that I've noticed make the biggest difference for my clients and sort of put them into this 3-month experience that we can do in a group. And there's amazing things that I find happen in groups. There's kind of this mastermind element. There's this idea that like everyone's work is everyone's work. So, I might be coaching one person in something and then you see like, "Oh my God, that's so me." And sometimes it's easier to see it in the other person and have it reflected than even just being coached yourself. So, I love working with groups and it starts on September 5th. We'll meet every other Tuesday for 1 hour from 10 to 11 Pacific. I would just— I just invite you, as if you're listening, if you're feeling called to an experience with me, with a group of like-hearted, like-minded entrepreneurs, startup CEOs who want to do this deep inner work, right? Start asking these deeper questions, noticing patterns, and having a shift so that you can show up in the state of love, of presence, more and more of the time. Which from my experience is the difference that makes the difference to then build a thriving company and culture and creatively respond to your challenges, etc. I just invite you to check out this course, The Inner Game of Entrepreneurship. I imagine we'll put a link or you can go to DaveKashen.com/courses. It's listed there and see if it calls to you and either get in contact with me or just go ahead and register. So thank you for allowing me to share that.

My pleasure. Thank you for sharing all the wisdom. I, I like to end these podcasts with challenges, and I asked the guests for a challenge to leave the audience with something that they could tangibly do to help them live a better life. Does a challenge come to mind?

Yes. Oh, there's many. The first one that came to mind was— and these are not my words, it's some spiritual guru— sit quietly and ask yourself the question, "Who am I?" And see what arises. And then ask the question, "If I'm even more than that," 'Who am I?' And sit quietly and see what arises. And then ask the question, 'If I'm even more than that, who am I?' And continue until you know when you're done.

You said there were multiple. Is the challenge the multiple askings?

No, that was, that was the first one that came to mind. Uh, if you haven't read the 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, I would highly recommend it. I think it's— the content in that book has transformed my life and my coaching. It's one of my favorites. If you haven't read The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer, I'd recommend it. And then I would challenge you to turn your life into a living meditation and play the game of starting to notice when you're present and when you're in a state of threat, not present, more and more of the time. And I guess the real challenge is, I, uh, I sometimes describe, uh, these two games. I'll close with this. These two games that people play in life. Um, game one is let me optimize the external conditions to match my ego mind's idea of how life should be so that I can feel peaceful and happy and all the things. I think if you're honest with yourself, you're likely living in that game. Most people are. I was for a long time and sometimes slip into it. Game 2 is, can I learn to be with a wider and wider variety of circumstances? Be with, be present with, right? I sometimes love the metaphor of the sky. Like awareness as the sky. The sky doesn't mind if it's raining, cloudy, thunderstorming. It's just the sky. So can you be like the sky and be imperturbable? And whatever comes, you know, remain in that state of love, presence, awareness. And if you're playing that game, life starts to show up more and more as your classroom, and you start to see everything as happening for you because By definition, anything that is— that you're triggered by is giving you an opportunity to learn to be with something that you previously couldn't be with, to be present, to be above the line. So my challenge to you is to fundamentally recontextualize the game that you're playing in life from Game 1 to Game 2. My belief is that you'll win at game one anyway if you were meant to, if it served you. I mean, that's the thing I love about game two. You get to win twice. I love ease and win for all. It's like the more I do that, the more ease with which the things that I think I want come or something even better, right? So you have to hold it lightly because like in the moment I didn't want the loss of 70% of my wealth, but I can see how that was even better than if I had gained. And, you know, from here I probably have a preference to gain it back or whatever, but I— it's a preference. I can hold it pretty lightly and it's just a game.

Well, Dave, your win for you before you started was to help shift something for someone. And I believe without a shadow of a doubt, it will be an eye-opening conversation for so many. It's one I can't wait to revisit. And I thank you for, for coming here. All your links are down below, including for your course. And really grateful for you for taking your time to be here. Thank you, Danny.

I appreciate you for your curiosity and your purity of heart. It was a joy to be with you and connect with you. Very, very mutual. And if I may say, I love you.

I love you too, my man. Thank you.