“What if Investors or My Team Realize I’m Over My Head?” | Ask Dave Kashen

What if investors or my team realize I'm over my head?

Yeah, I think a lot of founders fear like sort of being found out, I guess, like classic imposter syndrome. Actually, there was a great Art of Accomplishment podcast on this. I think it was the most recent one was about imposter syndrome. So I'll draw from that a bit and share some of my own thoughts. But the issue of like, what if my team or what if my investors know I'm in over my head is really an issue of self-doubt and feeling like an imposter, feeling kind of feeling like you should know something you don't know. Yeah, this is like such a common experience I see across all my clients is this like, I don't know what to do, but I'm the CEO, so like, aren't I supposed to know what to do? And, um, it's such a trap because it's like, if you don't know what to do, like, how do you know what to do? You don't, right? Um, but the thought that you should know what to do is the real trap. Because first of all, in some way it's just like, it's just like any way the mind thinks reality should be different than it is, right? Like the sky shouldn't be blue, today shouldn't be Monday, it should be Wednesday. It's like, well, it's not Wednesday, it's Monday. Well, I don't know what to do. So the thought that I should know what to do is, is in fact, uh, a way of sort of resisting what is, fighting reality. And I think it's based on the misconception that, like, your job as CEO or founder is to have all the answers, as opposed to, to maybe have the right questions or powerful questions and lead your team to discover the answers. And One of the things that Joe Hudson says in his podcast is like, if you're a high achiever, you are an imposter. Like by definition, you're— if you have any kind of ambition, that means you're doing things today that you haven't done before, which in some ways is like being an imposter. Like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm doing it. So, you know, it's like it's not a bug, it's a feature. Of course you're an imposter. And in fact, the thought that you shouldn't be an imposter is what creates the imposter syndrome, right? It's like, it's like, yeah, you know, that's kind of the point that he makes. It's like, yeah, you are an imposter. But then when you're— when you think I should know what I'm doing or I need to pretend I know what I'm doing, well, then you're no longer authentic. And, that's really where I think that's the rub is when you think you need to be something other than you are, you'll create suffering, you'll create these weird dynamics because you'll maybe pretend you know what you're doing but people can sense that you don't or pretend you know the answer when you don't. And paradoxically, you end up getting less buy-in from your team and having less of the available intelligence put to work on the question. Because if you go to a team, you're like, hey, team, this is a big issue we're facing. I'm not clear yet on what the best route forward is. Well, then it creates openness for other people on the team to say, oh, well, how about this? Or I think that. And that kind of like collaborative decision-making, one, is inherently valuable. It's why you have a team. And two is, you know, tends to create more buy-in, right? Because when people are part of the decision, they tend to be more committed. So I think it's a big trap, this thought that like, I can't show anybody that I'm, you know, in over my head, that I'm scared, that I don't know all the answers. And in general, anytime you think you need to be inauthentic to be successful, there's just some fear you have that you're not willing to feel about failing, right? It's like, I need to control this in order to control this, whatever this is, the way, you know, I'm perceived by my team, or the outcome— I need to do something or pretend something that isn't real. Like, that is really what creates that, um, tension and, you know, suffering. And so, um, again, I, I love this podcast, so I'll share. He says something like, um, the only way to become confident in yourself is to be yourself. Like, otherwise you're like gaining confidence in the mask that you wear working, but that doesn't actually give you like the inherent confidence you're looking for. I think— I thought that was a really interesting point, like sort of flipping the script a little bit from, you know, like being confident means that I match some image of how a confident person acts or what a confident person knows or the skill level of someone who's confident in a thing is not— it's not really what gives you that inherent sense of confidence. It's actually being yourself and then like being fully authentic. Oh, I don't know the answer to this one.

I'm—

I don't know. I'm stuck. I'm confused. And then seeing that that's okay, that people don't, you know, the mind will make up, you know, often like we have these fear and shame-based stories that like, oh, if people really knew my truth, they would run away from me. And, you know, I've led now hundreds of, you know, team offsites or meetings where I'll have them go around and say something like, if you really knew me, you would know. And they share something that they're pretty embarrassed about or ashamed of, or like their minds are pretty sure, not totally sure because they wouldn't share it, but like pretty sure that if people knew that about them, they would run away from them. Basically, they would disconnect. They'd be less connected, less liked, you know, less approved of. And then invariably the opposite always happens. It's like we really acknowledge and honor each other's vulnerability and courage. And so, it's like a version of that. It's like, oh, I feel shame and not knowing the answers, so I don't want to let anybody know. But in fact, if you're vulnerable, you'll find that the thing— the stories your mind is making up about how people will respond to you are generally wrong and almost exactly wrong. Like, people get more— people are more willing to follow a leader who's willing to say when they don't know the answer than one that thinks they have to pretend they do all the time. So, and then, yeah, I've been mostly focused on the team. I think it's similar with investors. You know, investors are people too. Like, I think there is this way we, you know, founders tend to think I have to like put on this perfect image and pretend that everything's going great all the time. And I don't think most, certainly good or great investors, want that. I think they want to know what's really going on and respect founders who are like, here's what we know, here's what we don't know, or here's what I know, here's what I don't know, and this is what we're doing to discover it, right? Or like, there's such— I see, you know, when a lot of clients are prepping for like investor meetings or board meetings, often we feel like we can't tell investors, um, I don't know. And so like, I see founders drive themselves crazy spending time trying to think of like everything the investor might ask and like, you know, have a prepared answer for every little, you know, possible question. Um, I had a client recently, uh, yeah, who described something similarly and realized like, so spending so many cycles kind of trying to think of every little thing just to avoid the experience of having to say, I don't know, in a meeting and made it like mean something was— he was incompetent if he didn't know some answer versus like, oh, I mean, you know, I don't know, let me explore that and I'll get back to you on that. Like, from my experience, obviously there's like some pretty central, you know, numbers and areas that investors do expect founders to be on top of, but those are, those are probably pretty obvious, like where's revenue. And so the kind of things I'm talking about are more like the, you know, at the fringes of, you know, what you might be expected to know. So, but more generally, just that theme of like thinking you have to know all the answers versus just acknowledging what you do know and don't know and having the confidence in yourself and your team to, you know, discover what's— what you don't yet know.

I see. It reminds me of that one question we did was how do you tell the difference between destructive doubt and healthy questioning? And your answer was kind of around doubting yourself for having doubt. Which sounds like it's, uh, very similar because you doubt yourself for having the imposter syndrome.

Uh-huh. Or for being— yeah, for being an imposter. Like, the, the thinking you shouldn't be an imposter creates the imposter syndrome, which is really funny, right? It's like, how, how would you know the answer to this? You know, the answer is when you've never done this before. Like, Who would expect you to know? And I actually got a client recently, it was like, I'm supposed to be the visionary and like see the strategy and, you know, and he's facing a moment where it's not currently clear. And that pressure, you know, like, I think, you know, he was sort of putting all this pressure on himself to know the answer instead of just going to his team and say, hey, this is the next thing that, is ours to figure out.

So where do you, where do you think feeling like we should have all the answers comes from?

I think part of it is, you know, school. Like, we, um, many of us, uh, had the experience of getting a lot of praise for getting the right answers, right? And in these like structured environments like school there was a right answer and you were expected to know it and figure it out. And now we might— we forget that we also were in a classroom where they taught us the answers before the test, right? So like, we weren't actually expected to know the answer just out of, you know, thin air. We, we were taught some things and then expected to, you know, remember them and understand them and get the right answers. But we, we maybe forget that part. And then, if you kind of— what reifies or reaffirms that pattern of thinking we need to know the answer is then we tend to get, most people, praise and recognition from our parents for getting good grades and doing well on the test. And so, there's often this sense of like my lovability, my worthiness, my value is a function of getting the right answers. And I think that's probably the deeper source of that pressure to like know it all and get it all right is if you think your worth is a function of getting the right answers, well then you really have a lot of pressure on yourself to know all the answers and get it all right, which is why, you know, a lot of the deeper work I love to do with clients is letting go of sourcing your sense of worthiness from really anything external, certainly your startup, knowing the answers. And not just intellectually or conceptually, but like viscerally feeling your inherent sense of wholeness and worthiness. It's interesting, like it's really only the mind that questions your worthiness. And again, a lot of that tends to come from childhood experience where you at least perceived, you know, whether it was intentional or not, some, some love as conditional, some sense that like, okay, I get, I get love and attention when I do this, and I lose love and attention when I do that. And because that's so important for a child to experience their caregiver's love and attention, We sort of learn that, okay, these are the worthy ways to be and these are not. And it is, you know, it's funny, a lot of people have this like worthiness thing as kind of unexamined, like worthy of what, right? Like, I'll be like, I don't feel worthy, like worthy of what? Um, I think what they're really saying is worthy of love, right? Like, I feel worthy of love. Like I get love when I do this or when I act this way, I don't feel worthy of love when I act this way. Which of course is not true. It's not even— most of the time, it's not even true that your parents' love was conditional. This was a big unlock for me some years ago. I had a coach say, whether it's true or not, I thought it was a useful frame, like, "All parents love their children unconditionally. It's the children who put conditions on how they perceive or whether they perceive the love." Right? And, um, like, I— this resonates deeply for me. Like, I had this way that I interpreted, in particular, my dad's love as conditional. Like, I'm exactly what we're talking about. When I got good grades, right, I saw him kind of light up. I got, I got some praise, I got some attention, versus like other things, or when I didn't, I didn't feel quite that same. So does that mean his love for me was conditional? No, but as a kid, did I know that? No. And I think that's a common pattern is that we perceive our parents' or caregivers' love as conditional. And so, we feel like our worth, our lovability is conditional. And then we internalize that. This is maybe a cool segue. One of my favorite questions to ask clients is, "Are you willing to love yourself unconditionally?" And most clients at the start of our work, they recognize if they're honest with themselves, they're not. They don't love themselves unconditionally. They love themselves when they achieve a certain thing or act a certain way. And if they really look, there's parts of themselves they maybe even hate or like really don't love or are trying to get rid of or And I had a remarkable experience recently with a client where I asked him this question and he is an amazing client. Like, I often joke that like the thing that makes the biggest difference in the effectiveness of my coaching is just choosing clients who are really committed. So, this is a client, you know, founder of a fantastic startup, super committed to doing his deep inner work. And so, he really reflected on this question of, am I willing to love myself unconditionally? Realized he hadn't been. And so, he really looked at the parts of himself that he was judging and not loving. And he was able to see how those parts were just trying to protect him and start to love even those parts like his temper, things like that that he previously was like, "Ah, this is bad. I want to get rid of this." he saw it was just like, oh, it's just another part trying to keep him safe and sort of protect some of the more vulnerable parts of himself. And then he described to me, and this was cool, he just came to this on his own. I mean, he's a dad and he thought about his unconditional love for his son and really felt it. And then he was like, okay, could I point that at myself? And he said for the first time he was able to, and he had that feeling of, like, loving himself unconditionally for the first time. So in a 2-week span between our, our last coaching session and then the one we just had, he quit like a 30-year nicotine addiction. 30 years, just like nothing. Started exercising regularly, started eating healthier. And then, we'd been working on this thing around delegating and started delegating. Basically realized that part of the conditional love had him seeking external validation, which meant if ever there was a client that was upset, that was untenable. So, he would swoop in and kind of save the day and make sure the client wasn't upset. Which of course, you know, he was kind of heroing his team and undermining their responsibility. And so he told his team, this is all in 2 weeks, like, guys, I'm stepping back. I'm gonna trust you all to, you know, take care of our clients, do what needs to be done. And he said he observed one of his like team leads dropping a ball. He knew the client was gonna be upset. He didn't do anything. Client was upset. But that team lead got to experience it directly, like, "Oh, I screwed that up." Client was upset and he said, the guy said to him, "Wow, you weren't kidding about that. You're really stepping back." And he was like, "Yep." And never happened again. It's only 2 weeks, but yeah, it didn't happen again. And I suspect won't because we tend to learn by making our own mistakes. So, it was just wild how like all these patterns that had been kind of working on and been like stuck around The moment he started to love himself unconditionally, they just naturally shifted. And he said he was like, I wasn't disciplining myself. I wasn't forcing anything. Just by loving myself unconditionally, that like cascade of really like patterns that were designed to kind of protect him, they were no longer needed because you didn't need, you know, need to like protect certain parts from other parts. Because he was loving all of himself.

Interesting. So tying that into the question of, um, like, what, what if I— investors and, and the team see I'm in over my head and stuff?

Yeah.

And it, it feels like, okay, if I go to— if I start sharing the truth to all these people, um, that it feels like all my security is just going to crumble. That I have, you know, together, because they see that, you know, I shouldn't even be here or whatever. It's like, how do I deal with that? How do I, um, I guess like, how do I know it's gonna— things are gonna work out if I, you know, it feels like all my security is built up on this mask that I'm wearing. Yeah.

I don't think that's uncommon to feel like my image is key to my security. And if people saw through the image, I would, you know, somehow that wouldn't be safe or I'd be, you know, investors would fire me or team members would quit. First of all, it's a really hard way to live. Right? If you feel like you have to— and by the way, I mean, we could extract this outside of founders. Anyone who believes that, like, their safety and people liking them and wanting them around and, like, goodness in their life is dependent on them portraying and holding up an image that's not who they actually are. I mean, it's just exhausting and draining and It's probably some of what leads to burnout in founders, you know, more than the hours. It's like the exhaustion of trying to pretend all the time and trying to be something you're not or pretend you have all the answers when you don't or try to think of the perfect thing to say instead of just saying what is actually your truth. So, Yeah, I think it's generally a lie, a lie generated by the mind, you know, kind of a self-perpetuating lie that like I must project this certain image to have what I really want. Um, I mean, it's not even that hard to see through, like how— like if you're not being authentic, like first of all, I mean, the most obvious one is if you think you need to project in a certain image to be loved Well, like, how is that even being loved? Like, you're— like, the thing you really want is to be loved for who you are. If you're— if you think you need to project an image to be loved— and yeah, love is probably like the deeper version of it, but, you know, to feel worthy, to have approval— but I think what we really want is to feel love. So if you think you need to project an image to be loved even if it works, right, and you're adored for your image, you still don't feel like you're loved for who you are. So what have you really gained? It's like, okay, yeah, people love this image that I portray, that's not who I am. Because the thing we really want is to be loved for who we are. So it's sort of a fool's errand to go and try to masquerade as something you're not in order to gain approval, or, um, and the same thing with security. Like, what feels safer than knowing you can just be yourself, right? So like, if there's— if you feel like you have to pretend in order to feel safe, that you don't feel very safe, right? And this is, um, it's reminding me of, uh, Joe Hudson's Golden Algorithm. I forget if we talked about it. It's like, um, the idea that whatever feeling we're trying to avoid we end up creating using the exact strategy we've employed to avoid it, right? So it's like, oh, I don't want to feel rejected, uh, or unloved, so I'll, um, project a certain image that I think people will love. And then even if they love it, I feel rejected and unloved because they're not loving me for me, they're loving me for this image that I've created. So I think that's a cool example of that. Yeah, I mean, security is a funny one too, because, um, it's really the, the lack of safety, security is really a function of not being present, right? Like, the mind lives in the past and the future, and so the mind creates a sense of I'm not safe, um, But I think a relative— I'll say simple, not easy. A relatively simple antidote to that is get present and then see if you can actually find any lack of safety. Like, in the present moment, you're safe.

So if somebody If there's a founder who feels like they're— everything around them is kind of built up as a lie and they're not being authentic and they're doing that out of trying to, you know, have all this security, you would recommend just get present, feel, feel the fear of, of, you know, sharing their truth. Uh, what else? How do you see that?

Yeah, I guess, um, what's awesome about getting present and noticing you're safe is it's like a visceral felt experience that is— can be a really powerful shift. Because if you're constantly walking around believing your mind telling you, oh, you're not safe, you're not safe, this bad thing is going to happen, this bad thing is going to happen, And then, you get present, you bring your attention fully to what's real, what's actually here now, right? That's not real. Your mind is making stuff up about the future. And then, you get into reality of, "Oh, in this present moment, I'm safe." And then, by the way, when is it not the present moment? Never, right? So, in every present moment, you're safe. I mean, we're going to die someday. I'm not saying you're safe from being human and dying. But even that, like the moment before you're dead, you're alive. The moment after you're dead, like none of that is really a problem either. I mean, that's a deeper exploration. But so, once you have this visceral sense of, "Okay, I actually am safe now," it sort of naturally allows the sense of whatever, um, not even sense, but like whatever pattern you're employing to try to avoid that lack of safety, just naturally, at least the grip of that pattern lightens. It's like, okay, if I feel safe, I actually feel safe, not conceptually, but if I feel like, oh, I'm safe right now, like Why would I go do a bunch of inauthentic things to avoid not feeling safe? 'Cause I feel safe. So yeah, I do. I think it's a nice, you know, so if you're looking for the like kind of, okay, what do I do? I'm a founder. Like what are the, what's the actions, right? So one, notice the pattern. I mean, that's the biggest, you know, what's that Carl Jung quote I love? Until you make the unconscious conscious "it will direct your life and you will call it fate." So I love the idea of just like bringing it to the consciousness, notice this pattern of like, oh yeah, I'm constantly trying to uphold this image to feel safe or to feel, you know, to win approval or to feel worthy. So first just notice that pattern. And then yeah, whatever the thing that you, the pattern is designed to avoid or I could say the other way, whatever the thing, the pattern is designed to make you feel, let's say, safe or worthy, get fully present and notice how you can feel that right now. That would be kind of the sort of one-two, like identify the pattern, look at what is the pattern designed— like what's the intended positive outcome of the pattern? Okay, this pattern is designed to help me, and it's always a feeling, help me feel safe, help me feel worthy, help me feel confident, whatever it is. And then get fully present, notice that you can feel that now, and it will lighten the grip of that pattern.

I see.

Yeah, that's, that's, I mean, that's, that, that little one too, we can, can be, um, prescribed to almost anything, any kind of attachment we have. So there's like these patterns and image, but any, like, anything that you are attached to, meaning like anything that you want because you believe having that thing will give you some feeling. Again, say freedom, right? Oh, I want my startup to be successful. I want to make a billion dollars. So that I'll feel like confident and free and successful and whole and fulfilled. First, just notice that it's— that starts with the premise you don't already have it and that you need it. And if you can, I like— one way I say is like kind of trace that wanting back to its source. In the present moment, you can find that you, you can actually feel those feelings now. You get present, you can feel safe, you can feel free, you can feel worthy, um, you can feel exhilarated, you can feel loved. Like, all that's already always available now. And I've been thinking recently about this, like, if you imagine like the, like a scale like the degree of variance between how much you think you can feel it now and how much you think you'll feel it then determines how attached you are to the outcome.

Hmm.

Just kind of came to me recently, like if I have, like, I don't— I can't feel joy, but once I get enlightened, then I'll feel joy. Well, you're going to chase enlightenment and be attached to it. Or a more commonplace example, like, I can't feel confident, but once we raise our Series A, then I'll feel confident. Well, you're going to be really attached to raising that Series A. But if you're like, oh, I can feel confident now, not false confidence, but like in my authentic self and who I am, then you might still want to raise a Series A, but the attachment to it will lessen because there's not that perceived gap between this feeling that you want then and how much you can feel that now. So, I've been really liking playing with that with clients is like, "How much could you feel it now?" And notice how that lessens the grip of attachment because everything we really want is ultimately, it's just a feeling. All the things we want are just strategies for some feeling that we believe that we need that in order to feel. Which is not true because where do those feelings come from? They don't actually come from the thing, they come from inside of us. And, if that's true, well, we can experience them, create them from nothing unless we're not willing to for some reason. And, that's— because I imagine someone listening to be like, "Well, okay, but You're telling me I can feel joy now, but I don't feel joy. So, like, what do you mean? You know, like, no, I can't. So I've thought about that. I've had that experience. And then, so then it's useful to, like, ask the question, like, what's in the way of me feeling joy now? And usually if you're really curious, like, like one thing you can explore is like What, like, there's probably a feeling you're experiencing that's like familiar. And for a lot of people, like, joy is scarier than like whatever the, you know, whatever is most unfamiliar for us is the most scary. So if we're used to feeling like sad or anxious, it'll actually be scary to feel joy. So, there'll be some fear in the way of allowing that joy to arise. So, that's useful to recognize like, "Okay, maybe that we're committed to just our familiar default kind of way of feeling. And so, it's scary to feel joy. And so, you might have to feel that fear and that will allow the joy to arise." But, if you're committed, from my experience, you can feel whatever way you want to feel. And, through a certain lens, one could argue you're always feeling exactly the way you want to feel, i.e., want to feel in the sense that like, "Okay, this feels familiar, this familiar sadness and anxiety." So, even though consciously you're like, "I don't want to feel sad and anxious," essentially you do because that's familiar. And, until you face that and look at it and realize that it's scary to feel something different and learn to be with that fear, you're going to keep creating what's familiar instead of going to the unfamiliar places you want to go. But it's really just that fear that's in the way. It's not the need for some external condition. Hmm.

So with the people that feel like they need to know, know everything, have all the answers, What is that unfamiliar feeling that they're avoiding?

Um, confusion. Could be confusion. Could be, um, fear itself. It's just like scary. It's, you know, there— even if we're wrong, there's something that feels really safe about certainty. And so, yeah, I think it could be confusion. It could be fear. Trying to think what else usually comes up for people around that.

Would you say vulnerability is like a feeling?

Yeah, I think it's— I think it's essentially fear. But yeah, it can feel helplessness sometimes, can feel sort of helpless or powerless. And again, like allowing, allowing those feelings is the key to no longer thinking you need to know something you don't know, right? Because if you, if you again, if thinking you need to know it is just a strategy to avoid feeling confused or feeling scared or feeling helpless, or powerless. If you actually welcome the confusion or welcome the fear, welcome even the sense of powerlessness, it's no longer a problem. It's just what is.

And it's like the— like what, what you mentioned with the— what did you call this thing?

Oh, um, I was just— I, I was using the metaphor. It feels like a scale. I don't know, that's the way I perceive it. There's probably a better way we could describe it. Like essentially the, the gap between how much you think you can feel the feeling now and how much you think you will feel the feeling then determines how attached you are to the outcome. So there's sort of two ways to reduce that gap. One is see through the story that having that thing will make you feel that The common one is money will make me feel safe. From my experience, that is not true. Again, above a certain level that what most of us are talking about, I know lots and lots of people who have $10 million, $100 million, fewer, but even people have a billion dollars, and it does not render them safe. And so that's one way is to see through the illusion that that external condition will give you that feeling, to that, that glasnen, but, and to notice how you can have that feeling now will both kind of shrink that sort of gap between the feeling now and feeling then, which creates the attachment.

I see. So it's kind of like a two-sided thing of feeling what you want to feel now and also, uh, being okay with—

well, not believing that the external condition you're chasing will cause you to feel the thing you want to feel then.

And also the, the thing you're avoiding, the unfamiliar part too. With the attachment, right?

Um, say more.

Um, like there's the, the feeling you're chasing and then the feeling you're avoiding, I guess.

Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah, so it's sort of two sides of the same coin, but it's, it's probably useful to look at both sides, which is Um, like, one way I could talk about it is everything that we want, um, we want because of the way we think it'll make us feel. And everything we fear, we fear because of the way we think it'll make us feel. So basically, our whole life is organized to avoid certain feelings and attain certain feelings. And, we believe that the external conditions are what will create those feelings on either side. So, attachment and aversion, right? It's like the Buddhists, right? Like the clinging and resisting are created by either trying to avoid some feeling and then therefore trying to control and manage the external conditions that we believe will give us that feeling, or trying to create some external conditions that we believe will give us the feeling we want. And sometimes it's both, right? Like, well, I want my startup to be successful because I believe success will make me feel free and safe and confident. And I believe failure will make me feel scared and ashamed and, you know, embarrassed. So It's probably most of the time you could look at either side of it. There's both a feeling we're craving and wanting and believing that some external condition will allow us to feel, and there's a feeling that we're avoiding that we believe a certain external condition will make us feel or allow us to avoid on the other side. So, I mean, it's wild to look at how much of our lives we're organizing just to feel certain feelings and avoid other feelings. And kind of magical when you, A, realize that all the feelings are available to you now, and B, that feelings are not a problem. Like, feelings are not painful. It's, you know, I've talked about this before, like, resistance to feelings is painful. So, you know, huge credit to Joe Hudson for teaching me this. Like there's a big difference between a feeling and resistance and that same feeling without resistance. And so, you know, even shame, fear, anger, sadness— if you fully welcome and allow those feelings— and when I say those feelings, I mean like the physical sensation, you know, the energy of it in your body— when you fully allow that it's not painful, and therefore you can viscerally recognize that it's not something that needs to be avoided. And so you gain a ton of freedom when you no longer have to spend your life trying to avoid certain feelings or create certain external conditions that you believe will allow you to feel other feelings. I'll say one more thing that's coming to my mind, which is I often think about there's life and there's your mind's idea of how life should be, essentially the external conditions. And so, the game that most people play is trying to get life to match their mind's idea of how the external conditions should be, how life should be, which you know, can work for like a minute or a day or maybe a week or two, right? Like the, the Scotty Scheffler, um, video where he's like, I won the Masters, and I was like really so excited and joyful and fulfilled for like 10 minutes. And then, you know, my wife's like, okay, where are we going to dinner, right? It's like that, that doesn't seem to last, um, and life is dynamic, right? So pretty quickly it'll move off of your mind's idea of how life should be, or the conditions required for your peace. So instead, if you can relax and see through your mind's idea of how life needs to be and just be with life as it is, i.e., be fully present, right? We can use those, those are fairly synonymous. Well, then you can feel peace and joy now, right? It's like the peace of seeing a beautiful sunset and it's like perfect. You know, evening in Hawaii or whatever, like the sunset is not giving you the peace. It's just for that moment, you're not wishing anything about life was different than it is. But that's a choice. I mean, it's one of my favorite questions to ask clients, like, in this now moment, are you willing to let go of wishing anything about life was different than it is? And if you are, you, you can kind of sink back into peace. Um, and because it's always now, and you could always ask that question, like, that's an example of how peace is always available now simply by letting go of the story that something needs to be different and allowing things to be as they are.

Yeah.