A Refined Person

Hello everybody, I'm Dennis Prager, and with me is— oh God. Oh my God, it's on the tip of my tongue.

I would believe you. With all due respect, you're not great with names. So this could be genuine.

Let me just say this. If I were stymied by your name, it would be a bad sign.

It would be a bad sign.

I have to say, Julie Hartman. Julie Hartman was dropped into my life by parachute. This is how I regard it. I have this vision. That God said, I have a gift for you, Dennis. And she came down.

That is so sweet.

It is sweet.

I think about it from what it must have been like from your perspective, because you, you asked me the other day on the phone, how long did it take you to realize that we were going to get along very well? And my answer was, since I first started listening to you, because I had the opportunity to get to know you like everyone at home listening to this has the opportunity to get to know you on And so I knew that we thought in similar ways. I knew that you would be someone who I would like. But then for you, you're right, I just parachuted in. You're probably like, who the heck is this chick?

Basically. And it worked out well. Anyway, welcome. This is— it's an indescribable thing, the Dennis and Julie Podcast. Is that— I'll tell you why. Because you can't describe what doesn't have a parallel. It's like when they discovered gravity. I mean, this is maybe a wild example. What are you talking about? There's a force that forces things down to the earth? What are you talking about? So in that sense, there is no parallel. It's not a boast. It's just a fact. Anyway, great to have you all. Great to have you, Julie. So one of the aspects of this podcast, Dennis and Julie, is the— is how human it is. Two people exploring life, and for that matter, each other and themselves. So you have an interesting and sensitive issue about the subject of cursing. Mm-hmm. Okay. And by the way, you know, I'm completely open and honest on these matters. It's to your credit that you suggested we talk about it.

Thank you.

You're going public with something you would like to deal with in your life.

Yes.

Okay.

And this subject arose because of a story that I have from a few nights ago. So just so you, the viewers, know, I know that Dennis knows this, I do have a habit of cursing. Luckily, I'm able to, it's kind of miraculous that I'm able to do this, I'm able to turn it off when I'm on the air, but in my life, I wouldn't say that I curse every other sentence, but maybe every 10 minutes there's a curse word in my language, and so it's been on my radar for a bit. It's not something that I'm proud of, But the other night was when things really took a turn for me and I realized that I needed to get rid of it once and for all. So I went out to dinner with a dear friend of mine from college and his mother. And they were in Los Angeles. His mother is a wonderful Christian conservative woman. I admire her very much. And of course, during the dinner, you know, my job comes up and we're talking about, how much we despise the direction that the country is going, and we were railing on the Democrats specifically. And we were bringing up certain people, and I cursed in a sentence when I was bringing up the lies that I see coming out of the White House and specifically from our press secretary. I didn't call her a bad name or anything. I just used the F-word as I was saying I think I said, you know, this effing administration we have and da da da. And when I said that word, my friend's mother looked at me with such shock.

Wait, not the F word. I wanna make it clear to everybody, it wasn't over the F word.

It was over the F word.

Oh, I thought it was over the a-hole word.

I also did say that. I think it might have been over both.

Okay.

I think I got in full disclosure.

I— so see, the a-hole thing is not here or there, but now that I'm hearing this from you, I am surprised you used that word in front of that woman.

The a-hole word?

No, the F-word.

The F-word. Yeah. I'm not proud of it. You know?

No, no, no. I'm not saying it that whether you— to insult you or anything. I'm just surprised. Because you're very aware of your surroundings.

Yes. I said, I think I said the F word with regard to the, the lies coming from the, the press section.

No, it was Meredith. Yes, I know it was.

I'm trying to, I'm trying to remember.

All right.

And then I said these a-holes in the administration. Let's just say it was a very intense conversation. We were talking about all of the horrible things that's happening and I had my guard down. I was out at dinner with with my friend and his mom, and again, it was a very heated discussion. We were getting very riled up about the direction that our country's going in, and I did curse twice. And just the look on my friend's mom's face really sent me down a mental spiral. I felt so horrible about myself. She looked at me like she didn't respect me, like she was disappointed in me. Perhaps, you know how hard I am on myself, I'm probably Reading into it, reading into it too much.

But you're probably right, she probably was a little horrified.

I think that, you know, how—

she was an older Protestant woman.

She's, she's in her 50s.

Okay, so middle-aged Protestant.

I would never curse in front of an elderly person.

But look, hilarious.

I know, and I feel weird saying that because why would I not?

Clearly you don't think I'm elderly.

Well, there you go, that's proof.

There you go.

You know, if I stop—

I'm going to try to stop cursing, but Well, so anyway, I am only asking about the Protestant because I have— I told you this, I've periodically— and then I really want to get to the cursing issue, but I want to explain what sounds odd. It sounds like a non sequitur. Why did I ask if she was Protestant? So I've gotten emails from Protestant listeners for all of my career who have very kind letters. People love me, they listen to me, etc. But Dennis, you're a religious man, why do you say 'Oh my God'? Like, I mean, even in situations where somebody might call my show and say, you know, my son just contracted cancer, and I'd go, 'Oh my God,' and they would feel that I was taking God's name in vain. So I've explained in my Bible commentary and on the air That's not what the Third Commandment is about, but I won't get into that now. But that's the only reason I raised what was her religious or not religious background.

Right, and also I know that people have expressed concern when you say goddamn it, even though—

Well, wait, no, no, I don't, I never say goddamn it, only because I know it'll offend people. I actually think it's an appropriate term.

Right.

You know, Mao, goddamn it, killed 60 million people, or better, goddamn him. If God doesn't damn Mao, that's not my God. I want God to punish the evil.

Right. I never understood when people don't like when you say goddamn it, because it is God damn it.

Right, it's not damn God.

Right, it substantiates God.

All right, anyway, back to the curse.

Yes.

Go on. So you resolved after this experience that I really love. Why? Because of her horrified look?

Yes, I think— look, it wasn't just the fact that she had this horrified look and then—

well, then it's good. By the way, I'm happy she had a horrified look.

I am too. I think it's made me better. But it brought something out in me that I've been wondering about for a while because I'm not— in the spirit of full honesty with the listeners, I am very proud of who I am. I'm very proud of how I conduct myself. I'm not just talking about my politics, but just the way that I treat people, the way that I speak.

You should be.

I rarely have that feeling. Of— see, now I want to say, oh my God, oh my, I said something wrong, or that was—

oh my God, on this program.

Okay. Oh, I rarely have the feeling of, oh my God, I said something wrong, I disrespected someone, or I wasn't as polite and graceful as I usually strive to be. I rarely have that feeling, but that woman looking at me made me feel that way. And I think it was really good for me because, right, I know that she respects me and she talks a lot about, um, you know, the way that I, that I speak specifically and how much she admires it. And I could tell that I fell a bit in her eyes when I first—

So there's a lot, a lot here to unpack, uh, which is why I started with it. And I'm going to come back to the cursing and you in a moment and my general view on the subject, but I want to make a a very important point. All through history, as far as I know, adults played the role that woman played in your life. Not just parents raise children. When Hillary Clinton wrote, it takes a village to raise a child, or just— I mean, that was her saying, it takes a village. I said at the time, I completely agree with Hillary Clinton. It does take a village to raise a child. However, I don't like her village. I don't like the values of her village, but the sentiment is true. Totally, totally true. Yes, that was an example. A member of the village reacted to you. I was gonna say said something, but she didn't. Reacted to you and it had an impact.

Yes. And my parents, as you know, are very traditional people. They, from a very young age, inculcated into my sisters and me the importance of manners. And they have gotten on me about my cursing too. But, you know, as I've gotten older, A, I don't spend as much time in their house. I live on my own now. I obviously went to college for 4 years. And when you're around other young people who curse a lot, you adopt that language too. But, you know, sometimes when your parents tell you to stop doing things, you brush it aside because it's your parents and they're always telling you to stop doing things. But to see an outsider admonish me visually— she didn't verbally admonish me, but her look was one of— disdain is perhaps the wrong word, but disapproval. And that really impacted me because I care so much about how I come across and not just how I come across, just who I am as a person. I never want to be disrespectful.

That's one of the reasons I wanted to raise it, although it was your idea. Yes, to raise it. I said to your credit, because you really do monitor yourself and want to be the best person you could be.

I do.

I know that, and I'll, I'll be very open with everybody. I know it because we're so similar. It's eerie, actually. When I was your age, I, I remember, even younger than you, I constantly tested myself. I, I consciously wanted to be a really good person, not a, a squish good Good has a bad connotation. I actually gave a talk on the difference between good and goody-two-shoes. I can't stand goody-two-shoes, but, but good is, is beautiful. So I, I wonder how many people in general, young people specifically, are conscious of that. I want to be When people say you should be the best you can be, they think professionally. They don't think character-wise. It's true. And you do.

Right. And also nowadays when people encourage you, they're not asking you to make any changes of yourself. They now, of course, people blame society. Most people my age would go, oh, that woman is such a prude. That woman is so traditional and conventional. I'm talking about, I mean, they wouldn't agree with me characterizing some members of the Biden administration as a-holes because they would love the Biden administration. But if they were in my shoes, they would probably say, well, if they are a-holes, we should call them a-holes. And that older woman is just from an antiquated time where saying that wasn't okay. They would blame her. But my instinct was to blame myself because it's, it just, I think it diminishes me as a person to resort to that kind of language. Look, I'm going to be honest. It's not that I'm going to totally eliminate cursing. Yeah.

Which is It's not called for, in my opinion.

I agree. I think sometimes— and you say this— it's, it's funny.

Yeah, it's funny.

The right moment.

Exactly. Anyway, it loses its power if it's constantly used. Yes, that's, that's, that's the whole point.

And again, I want to reiterate, it's like nudity at a nudist colony.

It loses its impact.

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No, right.

But I do curse enough in regular, you know, dialogue.

More than most of us at the Shabbat table.

Yes, I am the number one cursor at the Shabbat dinner table. Once every 10 minutes I throw out an F-bomb.

15.

Okay, good. I'm glad to hear that. You know, I'm hard on myself, so I think it's 10, but I'm glad to hear it's 15. I'm not going to completely stop cursing, but certainly publicly cursing. I mean, I never do it on the air because, hey, I'm not allowed to do it on the air. It's part of my contract.

You know who— do you know who curses the least at the Shabbat table? So for you folks, let me, uh, just explain. Every Friday night is the Sabbath, and I'm with about a dozen dear, dear people in my life.

Who are now dear, dear people in my life.

That's right. And it brings me great joy. And we also always have guests, usually that I bring. Usually they're not Jewish.

Right.

And so, you know, Dr. Hamilton.

Yes.

And his wonderful wife. It would be shocking to me to hear such a word come out of them.

And I respect that.

Right. And, and, but here's my point. This is the point that I wanted— I was waiting to make for people to get this whole preface about your life. The reason they virtually never do, and I've never heard them do, utilize such words, is they're religious Christians. So I said this to you off the air just, just yesterday when we were talking about this, and, and it is worth noting. Growing up religious, I was profoundly impressed with the concept of the holy, which is completely absent in the secular world. Holy means nothing.

Nothing.

The only time holy is oppressive— it means oppressive?

Yes. Meaning, meaning any religious term is seen as oppressive.

Oh, that might well be the— I was going to say though, I think for your generation, the only time the word holy is used, if it's followed by the S. Yeah, well, exactly right.

Well, that shows that, yeah, nothing is really old.

That's correct. So this was a very big deal, and it a big factor in holy versus profane was speech.

Yes.

In my Jewish school, it was— there was massive emphasis on speech. So I told you that if I meet somebody for lunch— this has been true my whole life, well, well before I was a public figure. Well, I was a public figure at your age, but so well before I was I was as public as I am now, okay. And I would have lunch with somebody who I had never met prior to that, and they would liberally use the F-word, the S-word, and so on in conversation with me, which I remember thinking, how do they know it doesn't bother me?

Right.

It's the first time we're meeting.

Well, that's what— sorry to interrupt you, but that's what so disappointed me about myself. I have met this woman before, and many times before, and I never cursed in front of her, but still, I don't know her well enough to know if it's okay or not okay with her. So I'm very disappointed in myself that I did that.

Right, so that— so that I relate to because of what I'm just telling you. I thought, this guy doesn't know me, how could he do— I— it was, it was an absence of common sense to me, or more than anything. But the other— yeah, I had two reactions. One, I can't believe this guy's cursing so liberally, he doesn't know me. And number 2, I know only one thing about this guy whom I've never met before. He's not religious. He's a secular person. And 99% of the time that is accurate. So here's an interesting aspect of that, since I do take that seriously. To your age group, and I know you're not a spokesman for your age group, but to the extent that you can answer a generalized question.

I analyze them.

Yeah, no, I know you do, but obviously none of us embodies everybody. Of course. So with that understanding, if I took 100 people your age, and so imagine, you know, your circles of spheres of knowledge of people. And they heard this, that religious people curse much less than secular people, would that engender no reaction, admiration, or contempt?

It would either be no reaction or contempt. Probably mostly it would be no reaction. It would go, yeah, that's probably right. But the reason why I also add contempt is because I think that in general, and this is what I was trying to get at when I was hypothesizing what a left winger or a secular left winger in my position would say, I think they would view someone who has an aversion to cursing as antiquated. And they view religious people as antiquated and as supporting things that are weird or that they, you know, carrying on things that they shouldn't care about. Yes, yes. I think they would go, why does a religious— it's culturally imperialist of them, they would probably say, of a religious person to decry cursing as unholy. Which is hilarious that they would say that the religious person is culturally imperialist because many of these secular left-wingers are the most culturally imperialist people. But they would go, why do they care? It's just a curse word. Maybe it's not the most refined way of speaking, but it doesn't harm anyone.

Well, they would ask what refined meant. That's true, that's true.

They would never say that word, right? That's a word that I think of a lot, especially in this conversation. I always want to be a refined person.

Well, you're right. So that's another thing that distinguishes you.

You're right though, many people my age would not use that word. They wouldn't even think of it.

I know, I know. Just like holy or profane, they wouldn't think of the word profane. I'm not sure all of them would even know what profane meant.

They would just think it's another thing that religious people have a bee in their bonnet about, right? A relic from the past.

And worse than a bee in the bonnet, I think they would think, oh, that's why they're so suppressed. Yes, self-control is suppression.

That is a very good point. See, I love that you just said that because I think it is the coolest thing that I can change myself, that I can look at that evening and go, "You know what, Julie, you do pretty—" See, I was about to say, "Pretty damn good job." See, I have to— I'm being open with all of you. I have to edit myself. "I do a pretty good job with the way that I conduct myself, but I could do better." I think that is amazing that God has given us the ability to use rationality and use you know, good values that we learn to improve ourselves and make ourselves better. That's incredible. But people my age don't see it that way. They see self-control, to your point, as diminishing the enjoyment of your life. I see it as adding to the enjoyment of my life. So I can become a, I can become a better person through self-control. That's a, that's a really cool thing to me.

Who, who even thinks about being a better person, that's the killer. And if they— if you— it's not your generation. It really— it starts with mine. So almost anybody now, when they think about being a better person, they think about emitting fewer carbon emissions. Yes. That's what a better person does.

Or protesting on behalf of women's abortion rights.

Or against racism. That's what a better person does. There's no involvement of—

Doesn't require anything of you, really. That's right. It doesn't require you to change yourself.

Well, that I believe is one of the major appeals of all leftism. You are terrific without paying any price.

I think again, and this is what I hope, I don't know how eloquent I was, but this is what I was attempting to say in my last point. I want to see throughout my life the heights that I can go as a human being. Oh my God, that is what is so fun to me. That's right. So, you know, if I can become— I mean, look, I, you know that I'm a perfectionist and I'm trying to balance my, my endeavor to elevate myself at all times with not becoming obsessed with being perfect, but Again, I think it is a really cool thing that I can teach myself not to curse to become a better person. I think it's a really good thing, as I have done, to delete my personal social media so that I spend less time consuming stuff that doesn't enrich me. I think all of those things are me climbing the ladder of life and seeing all of the gifts that God has given me and how I can use them. I know that sounds really trite. I love that. But it's like climbing a mountain. How high can you go to get get the best view? Why do people like make themselves amputees? Why do they prevent themselves from reaching those heights? They think it's diminishing themselves or their ability to enjoy life.

They don't grapple with it, right? So there's no answer to your question. That's true, they just— the notion you could reach ethical, moral heights is so absent But the urge— this is the part that drives me a little nuts— the urge to feel that you are a wonderful person has not diminished at all. Right. That's what the left supplies. Combat climate change and racism and you are a good person.

Well, it's cheap grace. I said that on your show about a year and a half ago. Leftism is the easiest way to attain cheap grace, to get salvation without any sacrifice. What was— who said it? Was it Malcolm? Malcolm Muggeridge? He said, um, uh, liberalism is Christ without the cross. What a great line, isn't it? It is attaining grace without any sacrifice or suffering, painlessly.

No cross. By the way, you know my theory? Have you heard my theory on why Jews complain more than Christians?

No, I didn't even hear that stipulation coming from you.

Okay, so here everybody knows Jews complain. They started— I mean, it's in the Bible. They get out of Egypt, they complain. It drives God crazy. They're complaining. And well, everyone complains, but why? Okay, Jews complain more. Okay, okay, they certainly complain more than, than let's say, uh, Christians in America. Okay, and, and so I— by the way, I I have structured an idea to test this thesis. Your cross-statement of Muggeridge is why I raised this. So I have constructed the following scenario. You have a church, a Protestant church, Catholic church, and synagogue agree to have an ecumenical lunch at a hotel some, let's say Sunday afternoon, okay. So I would arrange with the hotel that everybody is served overripe cantaloupe. Okay. And then find out which group complains the most. So when I tell this at speeches, everybody— the Jews crack up, the Christians crack up. Everybody knows the answer is the Jews. People don't know, and I don't know either, if the Catholics or the Protestants would be in second place. Probably they'd be tied for second. Okay. So with my mind, the way it's structured, that's never enough. It doesn't end the story. My mind goes, okay, now that we've established Jews would complain more, the question that matters to me is why. So I have a theory and I am— Shocking. That's true. Not shocking. I have a theory, and I have bounced this off Christian groups before whom I speak very frequently when I've told this funny story. And I said, so folks, I have a theory, and it is this: for Jews, suffering stinks.

For Christians, it's Christ-like, or it's a part of life.

Well, for everybody, yeah, part of life is, if everyone acknowledges— what I meant by that was like, but it has a religious significance. The religious significance of suffering to Jews is to get rid of it. It's part of the reason, I'm too, to Jews' credit, is part of the reason Jews so frequently went into medicine, to relieve suffering. Whereas a Christian their Lord and Savior suffered horribly, horribly. So in imitating Christ, my suffering does that, right? So there's a holiness to the suffering that is sort of absent in—

it's absent to Jews. There's something ennobling about suffering.

Well, no, that again, no, no, I gotta say Jews would agree there's something ennobling, but, but but not— there's nothing holy about it. Interesting. That's the point. It's holy. So where— and by the way, I think they're both right. I like— I think one should have both attitudes. It's awful and should be reduced, and on the other hand, there is a holiness to it. And it's, as you put it, is obviously part of life.

In Christianity I think the ennobling nature of suffering is really emphasized, obviously. I'm just asking this because I know Christianity better than I know Judaism because I grew up as a Christian. Where in the Old Testament is there that same emphasis on the ennobling nature of suffering?

There is in later Judaism, post-biblical Judaism, there are such notions. And a Jew who has suffered at the hands of a Jew hater is said to have died sanctifying the name of God. That's the way the 6 million Jews are viewed. Al kidush Hashem. They died sanctifying God's name, meaning they died because they were Jews. But the— I can't think offhand of a biblical, of an Old Testament is what you're asking. Reference to suffering playing that role?

Well, I think it's just kind of baked into a lot of the stories because in a lot of the Old Testament stories people do suffer. You know, obviously the Jews being enslaved in Egypt and then they're making Exodus.

But you asked, does it ennoble? There's no implication that it ennobled the Jews. Right.

Well, I suppose you could say that it unified them and it allowed for What came next?

You mean, can there be anything positive coming out of suffering? Well, yeah, presumably. Well, yes.

Well, something positive is different than ennobling.

Yes, ennobling. Excuse me.

It is that there can be meaning to your suffering. That's what I mean by ennobling. Not necessarily that there's something very positive.

It's a very interesting question. What do you do with all the suffering? And what if you have it? And so I would say to the Jew, my fellow Jew, as I'm not excluding myself, I would say to the Jew, uh, that's a beautiful thing that we want to reduce suffering in the world. On the other hand, it is a beautiful thing for the Christian to be able to live with it better, right?

Well, what's fascinating is, you know, I took this course, the best course I took at Harvard, under Harvey Mansfield. It was a political philosophy course. And we studied from the 16th century onward, Machiavelli, Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, Marx, Hegel, Kant, and Nietzsche. And my favorite person to read was Nietzsche. I know I've talked to you about this off the air because there's part of me that really hates his philosophy. And then there's a part of me that is very drawn to it and think it may have some good points. And one of the most controversial things that he posits, and I wrote a whole essay responding to this, is that modern-day liberalism— of course, he was writing in the 19th century, or maybe it was the 18th century, but so when he was saying modern-day, that was his context. He said that modern-day liberalism has taken the parts of Christianity that are supposed to be the best and twisted them and made them bad. And one of the things that he points to is the idea that suffering can be ennobling. He says that the idea of Christ on the cross is a paradoxical formula, that why would God try to make suffering— why would God essentially become human and make himself suffer? That lends a kind of— that sort of glorifies suffering in a way that Nietzsche thinks is harmful. And he thinks that it has contributed to a victim mentality, where people just embrace suffering and use it as a personality trait or use it as something to just kind of permanently sit in and never try to overcome. You can agree or disagree with his stipulation, but I think that there might— again, I don't know if exactly it comes from Christianity, but I think that the important part is that suffering can be meaningful and yet you should try to do everything to overcome it. It's not just that suffering itself is meaningful, period. And staying in it is—

look at all the hospitals churches founded, right? Both Catholic and Protestant. No, no, that's a— and, and all the missionaries who went out to alleviate suffering, they didn't only go to make converts. No, of course I went to alleviate suffering.

I don't think that— I'm not at all trying to imply that Christians—

no, I know you're not. I'm saying it, I'm just saying it. Okay, I don't think you are, right? Uh, and I am I am just compounding your point by this illustration, right, of how much Christians have been involved in reducing suffering, right? But so that we're both in agreement that the ideal is reduce it, and yet when you have it, see, see its, its sacred power.

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The appeal of victimhood is apparently very, very great. I don't relate to it at all. I remember I had, I had injured myself in some accident in my early 20s And I looked at my dear friend Joseph, who's still my dear friend. He had said something, and I just remember looking at him and yelling, don't, don't feel sorry for me, funny face. It was— it is so odd that I remember that. I don't even remember what the injury was, but I remember saying that. The thought— I'm only telling you this because I I— we're all composed of a nature, some, and there are some aspects that are wonderful and some that have to be fought, and just about everybody, right? I don't get the nature that wants to be pitied, right? Uh, I can't— I know. Oh, and you know what, I'm thinking this for the first time, that expressing yourself is helpful.

It's a great part of this podcast too.

Yeah, no, no, you're not kidding.

These moments, they're really not conducive to having on air because of the time pressure, right?

Or, or if you're just alone, right? Which I do obviously my radio show alone. I don't want to be a victim, not because of my, my moral nature, which I hope I have, But because I have a very, just like you do, a very strong sense of dignity. And it's not dignified to be a victim. It's pathetic. So well said. It's pathetic. And that's the opposite. Well, it's well said because I just thought of it now.

Well, that's an interesting thing.

I know it does.

And that's a great word also to apply to how we started this episode, my desire to stop cursing. It's not dignified to curse. That's right. I feel, again, I think I mentioned this earlier, I feel like I'm reducing myself, I'm diminishing myself, I'm making a fool or a mockery of myself. I want to be a refined, elegant, graceful, poised, dignified person. And allowing myself to succumb to that kind of language constantly is is certainly not fulfilling that. You know, that's interesting that you— I often ask myself, you know, why do I have an aversion to the victimhood mentality? Is it that I really do have such a strong moral fiber and I think it's morally wrong? Or is it, as you postulate, part of my nature? I think certainly the answer is both, but it's more so the latter. I have grown up always— and we talked about this when Amla was on the show— I said I have always despised arrogant people. I detest that quality. I also, from the time I was little, hated people who make themselves victims unnecessarily. I think because I had so many strong examples—

here's the— okay, go on.

No, I was just going to say, because I have so— I had so many strong examples in my life growing up of people who could make themselves victims and didn't. Right. I.e., my parents, with the situation with my sister. That's correct. Never wore it on their sleeves. They would downplay it to other people, and I so respected that.

And seeing that example alongside— well, that's part of my happiness approach, because I've written a book on happiness, is something I've thought through systematically. The unhappy tend to think that the happy had it easier than they do. And they're completely wrong. They're totally completely wrong. Yes, it's that, that the— everyone suffers. Some obviously suffer way more than others. I fully acknowledge that, obviously. But even among those who have suffered more, you— many of them have to have opted not to act the victim role, right? I, I know people who lost their child. You don't get more pain on this planet than that. And you wouldn't know this if you spent a week 24/7 with them. Yep. Yep.

I, for the life of me, I don't see why people my age don't admire that. I don't understand why they don't elevate these people as their examples.

Because there's no wisdom taught to your age group. None. It's a wisdom-free universe. They don't deal with these subjects. Right. How to be a dignified person? You got to be joking. But it would be interesting. You went to Harvard. I'd be very curious if they had a course on attaining dignity, how many would sign up? Oh, I don't know. I don't know either. But, but by the way, I wouldn't be surprised if many did. I think there's a hunger once they hear about it. They don't hear about it, right?

You know, it just makes me think, because we mentioned this a few minutes ago with regard to the word refined, people don't use the word dignity anymore. No, that was exactly— those words would literally never be in a course title.

We could make a list. It would be interesting. I might write a column on this. I'll tell you the word that I always use as an example. It's an unknown word. Mature. Mm-hmm. Yep. If you, if you say, yeah, I would like to be a mature person, You'd be regarded as weird.

You know, actually, I retract my initial, mm-hmm, because I want to amend my reaction. People actually my age do use that term a lot. Mature? Yes, but they don't— they're not talking about mature in the way that you may talk about it. You're talking— when you use the word mature, you're thinking of someone, I would speculate, who is has a clear sense of right and wrong, who is a strong, responsible— who's responsible, who treats others with respect.

I think— who isn't the child—

who isn't a child. The, the term— when I hear people say mature, they aren't, they aren't referring to those things, or they're referring to a much lower standard of those things. When they, when they call a guy, for instance, mature, the mature guy is the one who texts text you after they hook up with you instead of not texting you after they hook up with you. There's a low standard nowadays for the word, right?

Although that is an aspect of maturity, I will grant that it is.

But I, I would count, right? But I wouldn't call someone mature for doing that.

Yeah, it's pretty confined. Yeah, it's pretty restrictive. I am surprised that he would even say mature then. I, I really thought the word had died. No, it hasn't died.

It's died— my, my original was that it died in the way that you mean it. But no, it hasn't fully died.

So let's, I just wanna go through a potential list. This is fun. Dignity. Yes. Right. Refined.

Even the word wisdom itself.

Oh, wisdom. Oh God. Is that true?

I would be fascinated to go around to my peers and just say, give them a blank sheet of paper and say, can you write down your best understanding of the definition of the word wisdom? I would be great.

So back to my original question on the— what was it?

The one, right? We were listing words, right?

No, no, no. We were all— I was also asking the enrollment in class. Oh, so if Harvard had a class— I'm only using Harvard because that's where you went. If you went to Boise State, I'd use Boise State. If they had a course, Wisdom 101, Wisdom One. That's it. That would be the whole title. How many people would enroll the first time? Because if the instructor got a great reputation, they'd come for the instructor.

I have no idea. What I can tell you though is I think that people would think that the class has a religious connotation. I—

you're going to say what a compliment to religion.

It certainly is a compliment to religion. I, I'm trying to find examples that would substantiate that claim. It's just a feeling that I—

I think you're right. I didn't think of that. Well, but the irony is they would be right.

Yes, there is no secular wisdom. Yes, but they, but they wouldn't think of it in a good way.

By the way, I want to just explain my little— my last comment. Name— I, I say this to millions of people— name a secular institution There are secular individuals with wisdom. How could there not be? Right. But name a secular institution that has wisdom, and I can't think of one, because what are they going to get their wisdom from? You got to get wisdom from something, right? People, you know, you don't get wise just because you got older. There are a lot of old fools, and there were young wise people. You're an example. By the way, I was an example, and I don't take credit for it. I was a— it's true, my nature sought it, but that I don't take credit for. And I was taught it. You know that I wrote a column, I'm proud to say, just a few weeks ago. It was a very, I think, suggestive, even provocative column that my fellow students and I, when we were 11, had more wisdom than almost any professor at college in America today.

You're right, because you were raised in a religious upbringing.

We were taught wisdom like you're taught physics.

You know, when you just asked what is the source, that is the key question, because nowadays, you know, I ask that of many of my peers. I go, what, you know, where do you get your sense of right and wrong? Or essentially, how were your values built? What do you look to when you need to find wisdom? And I say, I look to religion, thanks to you, Dennis Prager, now that I've read your Torah commentary. That's the thing that is my anchor. And of course, my parents and their values have been my anchor, but my parents' values were religious values. So, it's essentially saying the same thing. But my friends will go, why do you need religious values to anchor you? Can't you just get wisdom from other people or from literature. That's what they say all the time. They go literature. Like they're all reading Tolstoy. Well, exactly. And also they don't understand that literature, to use it as a grand term, got it from the Bible. That's right. They are running on the fumes of Judeo-Christian values. The fumes are disappearing. Yes, the fumes are rapidly disappearing. But I just, it really does. I want to go around and ask people that question. What is your source? What is the thing that you fall back on?

I did that. I did it. You know, I consider my radio show my people laboratory.

Your laboratory, yes.

Right. I did that. I may do it again. So if it's not the Bible, tell me where you get your values from, where you get wisdom from. But you know— And overwhelmingly they go, oh, from life. Yes. Right.

What I don't understand, so you know, certainly our viewers know this from listening to however many episodes, 30 I think this is, that this podcast has been around. I love— 32. 32. Oh my gosh, this podcast is older than my oldest sister.

How about that? This podcast is older than my grandson.

Both of them combined.

Yeah, way older, right? Yes, 3 times. Yeah.

So you know, and all of you know, that I— we love— but I'm gonna say I because the story I'm about to tell is about me. I love talking about the big questions in life. And so when I would go and talk to my peers or my friends or, you know, at school and say, why do you think God has created the world this way, where there's such a disparity in the way that people are born and the privilege that they're born into? Why does he allow for things like earthquakes and hurricanes? Or what do you think the lesson is there or the meaning? They just say, "I don't know," and the subtext is, "I don't care." That's the point. The subtext is, "I don't care," and it baffles me. Right, right, right. Because I don't consider myself to be like a— I mean, I certainly love reading, but I don't consider myself to be a wonky, like, head-in-the-clouds person.

It's like I ask atheists— I've announced this many times— the first question I ask an atheist that I engage in a dialogue or even a debate with, and this is only for me, not for the audience, I want to know if I'm talking to an intellectually honest person or not. Oh, I know what you're going to say. Yes, I know you know. And I say, do you hope you're right or wrong? If an atheist says, I hope I'm right, it's so obvious they have not dealt honestly with the consequences of their position. If you— because if there is no God, this tiny, tiny island of time on This atom of time in which we live is it. It's non-existence, existence, extinction. Yes. Why doesn't that trouble you? Are you happy that nothing will ever again happen? You will know no one that you loved in this life. The evil will get away with their evil. The good will have no recompense for their suffering. You're okay with that? You hope you're right and there's no God?

There's such— and I know I've talked about this a lot— people my age nowadays are so deadened. I'm telling you, when I ask people, they're so morally deadened, they're so spiritually deadened, just internally they are deadened. When I ask people my age, as I do frequently— I don't have a radio show, but I try to just use daily conversations as a laboratory, as I know you do— to, when I say to them, does it bother you that according to your worldview, a murderer will go to this, you know, gray place that may or may not be the afterlife? And I don't know, Mother Teresa will all like— in other words, don't you want, as you just said, the murderer to be punished and the good to be rewarded? And all of them, they don't— at least in my experience, they don't even look up and go ponder the question.

I'll tell you why your insight is so important. They don't care about the answer. That's right.

And that scares me more than a lack of theory. It's a lack of caring.

It's deadened. I wrote about that in high school in my diary, that I'm walking among the emotionally deadened. And I think it's a function in part, again, of secularism. Oh, of course. I find my religion. I circulate in both worlds. I have a regular comparison. But you're right about it. People— well, you know what I thought you were going to say, but you're now on your anti-cursing campaign. Oh no. That when you ask them, so, you know, You're okay with Hitler having no punishment and Mother Teresa no reward? And my— I thought you were going to say— and they'll go, what? WTF?

That's what they would say. Yes, that really is what they would say. You all have helped to build MyPillow into the great company that it is today and have trusted in Mike Lindell to give you a great night's sleep. On top of the special exclusively for my listeners on the percale and giza dream bedsheets marked down as low as $29.98. Mike's now changing the game with his 3-piece towel set. This towel set is made with USA cotton, making it extremely absorbent yet still providing that soft feel you look for in a towel. The set comes with a 1 bath, 1 hand towel, and 1 washcloth, typically retailing for $49.99. And for a limited time, you can get this 3-piece towel set, which I own and love, for the low price of $19.98 with the promo code Hartman— that's my last name spelled H-A-R-T-M-A-N. Don't miss out on this incredible offer. There's a limited supply, so be sure to order now by calling 1-800-566-6745 and use the promo code Hartman, or go to mypillow.com and click on the radio listener square and use the promo code Hartman. You know, I, I, I have thought a lot about this question. Why do they not care? Why are they so deadened? Certainly it is because of secularism, and they're not taught to think about these things from a, from a young age. So as they get older, it doesn't really matter to them. But I think it's more so that pondering these questions is unsettling. It's, of course—

Right, why?

Well, look, I'm someone who ponders these questions, and it's unsettling to me. It's unsettling to consider the possibility that there may not be an afterlife and that Hitler and Mother Teresa may just go to the same place, or there may be nothing. It's unsettling to me that that I may not see my parents after they die. And then what it does—

Oh, that's right. I agree with you.

What I think it does is, and this actually dovetails unintentionally so nicely with what we were just talking about, the sequence of thoughts leads back to you when you ponder those questions. And modern-day secular leftists don't like it to lead back to them. Because if you allow yourself to think about whether or not there's an afterlife, You ask yourself of whether or not you would make it to that afterlife. And then you start replaying all the things that you've done in your life. And again, it's an unsettling process to go through. I find it to be, yes, at times unsettling, but ultimately a great thing to think about because it makes me a better person and I feel like I'm in touch with the eternal and it's just fascinating to me. But my contemporaries, I think, see it as a scary realm of self-exploration that they don't want to go into.

And if you're right, and I think you're right, there's another reason it's scary. Pondering these things does give legitimacy to a religious worldview. Yes. And they are, are as indoctrinated as, as people in North Korea are against taking religion seriously. I— you'll love this— I asked on my radio show 30 years ago, you're sitting on an airplane, this is the scenario. I, you know, I love scenarios. So I— you're sitting on an airplane and you know that, that, uh, let's say people will see you, strangers, and even coworkers that you don't know well, but they may recognize you. So people who will recognize you and people who may not, will not recognize you. Would you rather have on your, on your lap for reading purposes a book that says Holy Scriptures or Holy Bible or Playboy? Which, which would embarrass you more?

Oh, it's a brilliant question, and I am so sorry to tell you the answer that you have been suspecting all along. Most people my age would say that it is more embarrassing to be holding a Bible than Playboy, right?

But I asked this 30 years ago, and was it the same? Yes. And so you don't realize, you can't realize because you're so young, you, you obviously weren't living then. There's, there every It's much worse today, but it was all there.

Yeah, yeah, I believe that. Yes, I do, because it came— it had to come from somewhere, right? Exactly. And even— yes, even if you do look back, you know, I did an hour on your radio show the first time I ever hosted for you talking about how did we get here, and I focused on the presidency of Woodrow Wilson, who I, I think was and historians, good historians largely think was the progenitor of these big government ideas. He really expanded the role of the executive. He created like the deep administrative state. That shows, of course, this is more so about politics than values, but that shows that progressivism was more or less the same in the 1920s than it is today in the 2020s. When people go, oh, the party switched. Well, how does that explain that Woodrow Wilson was a Democrat and he was a big government guy, and FDR was a Democrat and he was a big government guy, and LBJ was a Democrat? And he was—

what is this? Government? The government switched? The party switched?

Yeah, I know they say that about after the Civil Rights.

So it's true the Democrats were racists until the '60s and then the Republicans took over.

I always thought it was— I remember it at my high school and, you know, I really liked my high school. I thought I had overall a great education. But I do remember in 10th grade, my AP US History teacher saying that in the 1960s, after the Civil Rights Act, the parties switched. And I just had this image in my mind. It's such a weird thing, almost like a folk dancing image where there's like this Republican on one side and this Democrat on the other side, and they just took each other's hands and they just hopped over and switched.

Oh, you have a real image.

And I sort of love that image because it shows even then I recognized how bizarre and inconceivable. Like literally they just switched with one another. They fought a civil war over these values and they like, how does that even, how does it even work?

Well, it's self-serving. Of course. That's the simple answer. Right.

But it just substantiates your point. This was always here. It's just been enlarged.

So a final question, which may be way, way too much, for this. And, you know, it's just the nature of our conversations to have big macro and personal micro issues. But here's a big macro, but it applies certainly, uh, by definition, it's in the micro realm as well. And this bothers me, actually. This, this does. It disturbs me, this realization. And for whatever reason, I have felt it more in the last few years than ever before in my life, that we are all born with natures, right? Somebody I was talking to recently privately was telling me, he said what he wanted to meet with me privately, someone I know through work. And, and what is it you— so what did— what is it you wanted to raise? We finally met. And he said, so Dennis, I, I, so I respect what you have to say. I am also a religious Christian, and I know you're a religious Jew. So you teach about the Ten Commandments and the importance of honoring your mother and father. My mother is a sociopath. She has no conscience. Wow. And by the way, a certain percentage of humanity, they're not all murderers. Sociopath doesn't mean you're a mass murderer. It means that you truly don't have a normal sense of empathy. You just don't. It's like the proverbial screw loose. And I was thinking again, and this is what I meant by this disturbing thing of these last years. I'm not born with that nature. You're not born with that nature. That woman apparently was. And all the— or the other natures that— the desire to be a victim. You know, I rather be a beekeeper with no gloves on than be a victim. Although I would end up being a victim probably in that case. But that's funny. Look, I had a nature. You have a nature. Grappling with great issues is not normal when you're 16. It's, it's not— I don't know how normal it is when you're 36, right? So the bottom line question, which we're not going to resolve here, and I'm— I don't know how resolvable it is, is do we have free will given how powerful our natures are? See, look, I'll give— forgive me, I'll just give the most dramatic example. Very interesting. When I, when I read about men who molest children, so let me tell you, as a man, a hot-blooded normal male, I am as attracted to children as I am to rocks. Okay, it's just a fact that there is zero erotic reaction to a child. Zero. Okay, most men are like me. I just want to make that clear. But there are men who molest babies. Now, I blame them, but I don't have to— I don't get any credit for not molesting children. It's like I don't get credit for not molesting rocks. So it's so antithetical to Yeah, but it's antithetical, as I said, to the vast majority of men. So my point is the free will question. I've asked our mutual friend Dr. Stephen Marmor, who's been on my radio show, who's a brilliant psychiatrist, have you ever had a patient who wanted to molest children and who prevented himself? And believe it or not, I don't recall his answer. We've got to ask him. I know, but I don't know if he has an answer because maybe they wouldn't have confided. But in any event, that's my question. Can they control themselves? Now, if they can, so free will exists. But I have to admit, they have a tougher time than I do. I get no credit for not molesting children.

I think there are gradations of free will. My sister obviously is on one end of it. My sister with very severe autism, she has no free will. Her brain is so disabled and screwed up that she can't— That's clear. Right. Okay. Right. So again, I think there are gradations. I naturally, and again, I'm in the same way you say that you don't get any credit, I'm not saying this as a self-congratulatory thing, it's just true. I never had any desires to cheat on a test. That was just my nature. I never had any desires to be rude and snitty and callous and mean girly to other girls at my all-girls high school in the way that some others did. Okay, maybe that means I'm a great person, but I just truly was born that way. So I understand what you're saying. I do think that people have free will. Is it harder for some people? Yes, just in the same way some people are born with natural proclivities to be alcoholics or, you know, they have a harder time with substances than some people do. Some people have a harder time running a marathon than others do. We're all born with different things. But I do believe that free will still does exist and that controlling those things is still possible because if you look back the last, you know, 100 years ago, what was kind of the golden decade of America, the '50s, we had the same amount of malignant people then as we do now. But then there were guardrails. There were things like religion that were teaching people to, in a sense, effectuate their free will, to control their impulses. Now we have the same malignant people, but we don't have the guardrails. We don't have some religion the same, to the same extent that we did, telling people to control their impulses.

That's 100% accurate. 100%. I am religious half for pragmatism— I want people to be good— right, half because I believe. Yes. But maybe there's another possibility, an additional one, not, not, not a substitution. Maybe when God judges human beings, he takes into account, right, what battles you had to fight and what battles the other guy had to Yes, totally.

You should be judged, as you like to say with the Noah story, you should be judged based on the standards of your time.

Well, not the standards of your time, the standards of your nature.

The standards of your nature, yes.

It's an interesting way to view it. Some people are born to be better, a finer human being than others. It's just the way it works. Just like some are born to be finer pianists. 10 people can take the same number of piano lessons. One will be a virtuoso.

I will tell you a thought that I vividly remember having when I was 6 years old. There was a kid at my kindergarten who would, would like take food from people's lunches when they weren't looking. He was a, he was just a little thief. He would take your goldfish or he'd take whatever. And I remember one day I had a particularly healthy lunch and I looked over and I saw my friend had these like little brownie bites. I forget what the brand was, but it was such a thing when I was little. Everyone had those little brownie bites and I so badly wanted them. And I thought of that kid that stole all of them and got away with it. And in my head I was saying, it's really unfair that he gets to steal and get away with it. But then, you know, I'm feeling guilty right now about the possibility of me or even thinking about stealing someone's food. But then the thought that I had was, you know what, Julie, you were born— I literally remember telling myself this when I was 6— you were born with a better sense of right and wrong than this other kid. So 'You need, given that standard,' of course that wasn't my language at the time, but the thought was the same. 'Given this different standard that you have and that you were born with, you need to act in accordance with that standard.' That's right. 'You can't lower yourself.' And so I remember thinking, 'I was born with more of the gift of knowing right and wrong, so I need to adhere to that.' Right. 'Just because someone else gets away with it—' That's right. '—doesn't mean that I should lower myself.' It's like handicapping a race or in golf.

Right. That's exactly right. Right now.

Now I'm craving brownie bites. Sean, you got any? I'm the kid who stole all the brownies. You're the kid who stole them?

Yeah. That is awesome. So we have both here. We have both. I don't believe Sean would have stolen the brownie bites. Oh, he's a little devious. Look at his face.

He's going—

He would have beaten the kid up to get them, but he would not have stolen them.

Sean, were you always a redhead even as a kid?

What do you mean? We always—

who becomes a redhead? Okay, that's true. Maybe we edit that question out so I don't look—

no, no way. Well, Jules, this is fun. This was, this was good. Sean reminds me to tell everybody. I'm so self-conscious about it, and I'm very angry at myself because I wrote it for the sake of people?

I'll tell them, order Deuteronomy. It is the— I mean, I haven't read it. I've read it once over for typos. Well, it just came out.

Yeah, you know, this, this past week.

I read it a year ago for typos, and I had to prevent myself. That's different. That's way different. I couldn't read any of the content, really. But, um, if it's anything like your previous two commentaries, it will change your life. Yes, that's—

I, I— that said a lot about things, but this is true. It really will change your life. There are 4,000 reviews of the others on Amazon, and this is my, you know, my gift to people. It's my gift also— I, I know this will sound pompous, but I'll live with it— it's my gift to God because I think it's God's message to humanity, and people have not— very few people have, have made it accessible to people as the way it should be. How relevant and powerful the stuff is. By the way, so I learned that Deuteronomy was the most quoted book by the founders of the United States, and now I have to modify— the most quoted of the Torah's books by Jesus. It was the second most quoted of the Old Testament. Wow. Psalms was number one. So it's still remarkable. It shows how significant the book is.

I know that we're out of time, but in a sentence or two, can you just tell me and the viewers why you think that is? What is it about Deuteronomy specifically that made it the most quoted book?

Well, number one, it's unique. It is all Moses talking. Moses. Deuteronomy is Greek for Deuteros, second is second or two, and nomi is from nomos, law. It's second law. It's Moses' summary of all that preceded in the Torah. And his take and his parting messages, which are consistent about, you know, loving God, being obedient, the covenant, happiness. My favorite rule of all, when you— what happens when a soldier conquers a woman in battle? How it pre— how Moses's law prevented rape. I mean, the stuff is so life-changing. It is. So anyway, it's called The Rational Bible, and it's Deuteronomy.

The final thing I'll say— I really could go on about it for hours— but what you just said, you just taught me something about the, the word and what it, what it means. That is one of the many things that makes Dennis's Torah commentary so special is that he has such a command of the language. I think of bara, the verb in the first sentence of Genesis, which means to create. And you talk about, you translate the Hebrew so well, you talk about what the word, how the word may be different from the translation, the connotations, that elevates your understanding of the text so much. And it really does make you stand apart from other people who write commentaries.

Thank you.

Yes. So, you know, at the end of every Dennis and Julie episode, I plug our social media, which is @DennisJuliePod on Instagram and Twitter, and I plug my website, which is julie-hartman.com. But I have a third thing to plug today, which is that my own show, Timeless with Julie Hartman, will be launching, I believe, in 2 weeks, right, Sean? In 2 weeks. We've, we've wanted to get this thing launched over the past 2 or 3 weeks, but we're doing some finishing touches, but it will be ready to go very soon. So please look out for that. It will be Tuesday through Friday on YouTube. So you're always going to have Dennis and Julie on Mondays, and then the rest of the week you'll have Julie on YouTube. But of course, you're always still gonna have Dennis and Julie on Mondays.

Yes.

Wow, is this a revelation to you?

Oh yeah, no, no. Well, originally wasn't it Tuesday?

That's what confused Oh, you, you are right. Originally it would air on Tuesdays, but now we're going—

No, I like that. That's right. It comes out on Monday, on Mondays, and then the rest of the week is Timeless with Julie Hartman. That's right.

So you can listen to Dennis in the morning and then listen to me.

The very fact that you would choose the word timeless—

a lot of thought went into that.

But it says a lot. You think about this stuff. Okay, everybody, see you next time.

I'll be 23 next time.

Little old.