Act Your Age

Welcome to Dennis and Julie. I'm Dennis and I have always been Dennis. I made peace with my assigned gender. So did you, I think. You've always been Julie.

Did I ever tell you that I had an imaginary friend growing up named Dennis?

You never told— is that true?

When I was really young.

By the way, you did not know— talk about imaginary friends. I was chastened. I won't say shocked or bad, or it wasn't bad. You did not know who Mr. Snuffleupagus was.

Who the hell is that?

Big Bird's imaginary friend. Well, did you ever see Sesame Street?

I'm sure I did, but I don't remember.

Oh, that's so— it was so big when I was your age. Do you know that I watched, I watched it when I was at Columbia? I, I can't believe this, but I, it was— I never watched TV except Sesame Street.

Really?

I— because at Columbia? Yes, it It was a charming, funny way to begin the day. It was completely unwoke. It was innocent, funny. Bert and Ernie and Mr. Snuffleupagus and the Cookie Monster, Oscar the Grouch, whom I loved. The guy who loved dirt, basically lived in a garbage can. Anyway, I had a great time with it. There was an imaginary friend. So you had an imaginary friend named Dennis?

Yes, I did. It's because I had a nanny who had a son named Dennis, and I don't know, I thought this nanny was very cool and I wanted to copy some element of her life. So I said that I had an imaginary friend named Dennis.

So now a non-imaginary friend named Dennis.

I know, I've leveled up.

You have. All right, you said you had something on your mind.

Well, I said I had a fun topic to bring up at the beginning, and it actually segues nicely because you just said that I, don't know about Sesame Street. Well, yesterday Dennis and I were talking about candies from our childhood. Remember that?

Oh, that's right.

And so last night I went to the store and I got you some Nerds because Dennis did not know.

Hey, Sean, did you ever hear of Nerds? He did not know Nerds existed. Do you like them? That's how you got that big? Do you like Nerds?

Yeah, I like them. Dennis does not.

What is it? I never heard of it. That is true. I never heard of it.

They're rainbow dots. You were stunned yesterday.

What's a funny name? Thank you, that's very sweet of you. What is Buzzletuff? That's right. So what is it actually? It doesn't— a, uh, nerds are delightful to eat or to give. Huh.

And look at what I just—

all right, I will give this a try. So I mentioned to you, I remember, I remember, it's amazing how many you never heard of that were so ubiquitous in my youth. Chuckles, Good Plenty, uh, did, uh, Clark Bar, Mounds. How did she never hear of Mounds? How is that possible? They're still made, aren't they? Aren't they still? What about Almond Joy?

Oh, well, Almond Joy is everywhere.

Well, the same group that makes Almond Joy makes Mounds. All right, anyway. Mounds is Almond Joy without the nuts. Oh, okay, there you go. So which is the one with the coconut filling, Mounds? Yo, that's beyond delicious.

It's an interesting question. Have there been new fun candies invented in the past few years? Nerds is one of them. I don't know about many others.

Were Cake Pops invented? Sour Patch Kids?

Oh my God, of course, Sour Patch Kids. When were Sour Patch Kids invented?

Yeah, it's relatively new.

Do you know what Sour Patch Kids are?

No, I have no idea. If it has sour in it, I'm not particularly interested as a candy. I like sour. I like lemons.

I love Sour Straws. I actually had them for breakfast this morning. I had Sour Straws for breakfast.

That's another candy?

Yes.

Sour Straws as opposed to Sour Patch Kids? It's a different— it's different product. What about Baby Ruth?

I've heard of Baby Ruth, but I don't know.

You never actually saw it? Baby Ruth is obviously chocolate and I believe some sort of nut. Nougat. Yeah, nougat. Thank you.

So there were candy stores when you were growing up, and that's where you were— you would primarily get the candy, and they were a nickel. Oh, that's so fun.

A nickel for a candy bar. But I, I, I was never From the day of my birth, I was never thin. And so I, I remember I'm talking about 5th grade, go to the candy store and I'd say, yeah, you got to watch it. You can't buy candy like the other kids can. I mean, I'm not complaining. I've had a really blessed life.

But you're tall.

That helps. There's no— you're right. I agree with you. So you win some, you lose some. It's like, you know, one of my great lines that actually formed the basis of the most popular chapter in my happiness book. Believe it or not, you've read my happiness book.

Yes.

So there is a most popular chapter, and I only know it because so many people have said it to me. You know what chapter really changed my life? And I'm so curious when people say that. The missing tile syndrome.

Yes, I love that chapter.

You did too?

Mm-hmm.

So I compare life to looking at a ceiling. 1,000 tiles in the ceiling, 500 tiles, one is missing. What do you stare at? The one that's missing. And that's how we work in life. And I learned it from a guy who said to me, you know, Dennis, a bald guy walked into a— he says, when I walk into a room, all I see is hair. And that These are the comments that I assimilate and then realize this is a big deal what this guy just said. So overweight women only see thin people. Women who want to get pregnant only see pregnant women. Guys without hair only see hair. I mean, it is, uh, you have a wild kid, all you see are well-behaved kids. It is that, that is one of the obstacles to happiness. We see what we're missing. And focus on it. Women are really adept at that.

Oh yes. And they make me—

by the way, I know— and they make up what they're missing. That's the joke. It's bad enough if they're really missing it.

I know, we contrive so many issues. I mean, you, you see it with, with me and your wife.

Exactly. We ought to— we'll talk about that one of our, uh, Senate Edison Julies. I do have, I do have a, a big issue to raise with you. We Maybe it won't take long, but so I'm thinking, I think about you a lot and I think about your, you just graduated college. I mean, by the way, just parenthetically, does it seem like a long time ago that you were at college or like yesterday?

I hate to do this, from college.

Oh yes, graduated from college, yes. So does it seem like it was just yesterday? It was just yesterday.

Very interesting you raise this. I was driving to work today thinking about this. It doesn't. It does and it doesn't. But it seems like quite a bit ago. And the past few months, I will admit, seem like a total blur.

Oh, well, of course, given this, you've traveled at the speed of light. So this is the topic I want to raise, but The not, but it is the topic I want to raise. So you were just in college and now you have a national podcast, international given the internet and people writing like the guy who would have proposed from Germany, but he's gay. It was a great letter. God bless the guy. If he's watching, God bless you. And your life is undoubtedly completely different from every other classmate that you had. So my question to you is, and, and this will raise its own interesting issues, what are most of your classmates now doing? They don't have a national podcast.

Most of my classmates are working at big firms. Financial firms or consulting firms as entry-level analysts.

Male and female?

Yes.

It's, it's relevant to point out that this is Harvard, but it's, it's probably true for any prestigious college. So do you think— now this is speculation, and you may even have more knowledge than just speculate, But do you think they're happy doing this?

Hmm. No. They tell me they're not happy. But also, the year after college is an especially brutal year. And I love my job, but I'm finding that it's an especially brutal year. Because when you're in school, and especially when you have kind of a rigid, accomplishment-focused upbringing like I did and many of my peers did, your tasks are set in front of you. You know what you have to do. You have to get good grades or you have to excel at a certain extracurricular activity to get into college. And then when you're in college, you have to do well. But then when you're catapulted into real life, you have to decide what you want. It's not as laid out in front of you as it is when you're younger. So I think all of us right now are trying to figure out, you know, how much do we care about our careers? How much do we care about our personal lives? What are other things, priorities in our lives? Do we want to travel? Do we want to be— I mean, this is something I'm thinking of. I want to be more involved in my community. I doubt a lot of my peers are thinking in those terms. But to bring it back to my peers who are working at big firms, I can imagine that the stress is compounded for them because they loathe and hate their jobs, many of them, because they are literally enslaved to their jobs.

Why are they doing it then?

For the name and the pay, and they don't know what else to do.

Well, okay, this is a very big topic. Let's go through it. The name, the pay, and they don't have anything else or don't know of anything else to do.

I think the primary thing is number 3.

Oh, interesting.

They have no idea what else to do because many— because I'm sorry, I feel like I'm flamethrowing here and I'm painting all my peers with one broad brush, but Most people my age don't know, don't have a lot of, don't have a wide range of interests. And if you don't have a wide range of interests, then you don't have a wide range of jobs or potential occupations that you would want to enter. So people think, oh, I'll go to a big financial institution because it will look good on my resume. I'll get paid a lot of money. I don't know, I'll earn some street cred.

It's sort of, I'll use a neutral word, it's sad. They're not excited about life, it seems.

No, not at all.

Would you have predicted this?

Of course, oh definitely, because again, so So many of us had rigid upbringings and the whole goal of our upbringings was to succeed and to acquire fancy things.

So it's fascinating. I wrote many years ago, this is the life of upper middle class, most upper middle class kids in this country. Get good grades so you can get into a good high school. Get good grades so you can get into a good college. Get good grades so that you can get into a grad school. Get good grades so that you can get a good job. Get a good job, and then you retire and die.

Mm-hmm. So what it is, and I was having a discussion the other day. I went out to dinner with two of my good friends from high school, and we were talking about this idea that We struggle to carve out leisure time for ourselves. And you know, Dennis, because I talked to you about this ad nauseam off the air, that I am— I really struggle with that. I always feel like I have to be working when I take a break to watch Real Housewives, which is— which, you know, is my favorite thing to do in my downtime. I— the whole time I'm feeling guilty because I think I should be doing something that will be inching my career forward. Similarly, my friends and I were saying, when we read books, it's hard for us to enjoy the process of reading a book because we are so focused on retaining the material. And so, and you know, I will totally admit, I'm not just, you know, wagging my finger or saying that this is a problem that afflicts my peers. I struggle with this hugely. When I open a book to read it, I meticulously highlight and underline and star starve things and take notes. And it's like I'm approaching reading the book like it's an academic seminar because so much of my life you didn't read a book to retain it and to enjoy it. You read it to perform on a test. So the point is this rigidity in this, you know, as I say, accomplishment-oriented way of looking at the world bleeds into other aspects of your life. And as I've said many times, I think it deadens you. And it prevents you in some ways from functioning like a normal human being.

Well, well, that's what I suspected, which is why I raised the question. So I want to go through each of the 3 answers you gave. One is they don't have anything else. That's depressing.

That's totally the primary one. And a fear of taking a risk. But they don't actually— I don't really know if it's fear of taking risks because they wouldn't even know what they would want to do. Again, they don't have a lot of interests.

Well, I just want to note, and I admit that this is a constant theme in what I speak about, but it doesn't matter to me, it's that there are two huge things that aren't even on the table when they— when you graduate college. In most cases, marriage and religion, the two things that most gave people a sense of purpose through almost recorded history, they're off the table. If I ask someone your age, male or female, well, do you want to get married? I said, well, yeah, eventually, but right now I'm just preoccupied with my professional life. That was not the answer that the generation before mine— it's now 3 generations, I think, that give that answer. My parents and their parents, their parents, their parents, their parents, back for eternity, would have said, Yeah, I want to find— I want to find a guy. I want to find a girl. I want to get married.

Even right out of college?

Even right— oh, in college. That— did you ever hear the line, oh, she went to college to get an MRS? You never heard that line? Oh good, I'm glad I brought to you a new thing.

Oh, like a Mrs.?

Yes, yes.

Funny.

That was a phrase.

Yeah, I don't think—

oh, she's only in college to get an MRS. No, but no. And how many?

30.

No, it's been up and it wasn't said in my time. Feminism hit its stride in my time in college. I was in the no shaving era. Try to date a woman who doesn't shave. It makes the case for homosexuality. Okay, I'll move on. But oh, To go to school for an MRS was an insult. It was a way of insulting a woman. She's primarily there for an MRS. I would say to a girl who is in college today primarily for an MRS, you are one of the wisest and probably among the happiest kids of your generation.

Well, so much of this, as we both know, obviously is values. But now we're in the age where you can freeze your eggs. I mean, men don't have a biological clock, but the point is we have all of these scientific inventions, which in many ways are good things and liberating things, but they also facilitate and delay.

I'm not even thinking of the children part, which is very important to me, but I'm just thinking of the bonding with a man part or the bonding with a woman part. That's important.

Well, you know, I've thought a lot in the past few months about how I should be acting at my age because I take my work very seriously. I'm constantly reading, constantly trying to make a go of this career. And sometimes I wonder, and I know I've said this on this program and I've obviously said it to you many times off air, should I be out at bars or should I be, I don't know, going to music festivals or something, like doing things that people my age do. And there's this idea among—

Okay, if I know I'm interrupting, finish, finish, finish.

No, no, you can go.

Okay, I just, I have to say, it's eerie how I see me in you, as you know.

You thought this too?

So I, I know that I've said this, I even think on Dennis and Julie, but it doesn't matter. To give you an idea of how I didn't do what my peers were doing, Okay, so one summer I said to a friend or two, how would you like to go with me? I'm going to Europe this, this summer. Oh, it sounds great, Dennis. Where are you going? And totally, totally not kidding, and with no smile, I said Bulgaria. And they thought I was out of my mind.

I thought you were going to say they said, what's that?

Oh, that That's a good point. Most people have heard of Bulgaria. They might not be able to find it on the map. I said, yeah, I'm going from Bulgaria to Poland. By the way, I did it so often I could tell you how it works. Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland. That's going south to north. And the other, the another summer I'd go north to south because I studied communist countries. By the way, I had, I had a total— I'm sorry to say this because the people were suffering, but I had a an amazing time because they loved Americans and the women of East Europe loved Americans too. I won't go further. I'll only note that in passing. But that's not why I went.

Second time in the show you've said, I won't go further.

Really?

Yes.

That's really— I'm hitting some sensitive spots. I did not do what my peers did. You can't— the question is normal. But you can't be guided by that.

I have come to peace with the fact that I'm not doing what other people my age are doing. I used to— this summer I wrestled with it because I— and I will admit sometimes I still wonder, am I going to be 50 years old and look back and go, God, Julie, at 23 years old you were a mini, you know, 60-year-old woman. But I don't view it that way now. How I view my— not just my job, but my off-air time, I view it as building the infrastructure for my life. And specifically, the emotional and professional and intellectual infrastructure. The reason why I'm spending so much time right now reading the Bible and trying to understand religion is because I want to make myself a strong, wise person in these years where I can still kind of mold myself because I'm young, in my 20s. So that when I do get older and hard times hit me in life or good times hit me in life, I have the infrastructure to handle it. That's how I think.

Who— I'm looking at the camera. Who talks like this at 23? Me.

I believe it.

I kept— I kept— we're freaks, he said in the earphones. It's true. I was a happy freak. To, to, uh, uh, and, and I had friends, but, but it didn't matter. I, I marched to that drummer. I wanted to know how to live a life when I was your age. It was the most important question.

Yes, and you again, like, just as you have to look at stocks or investments and see even if something doesn't look advantageous now, in a few years it might lead you to hit the jackpot, you have to do that in other ways of your life right now when you're my age. And look, sometimes— and you know I love the Bible, I talk about it all the time on this program and specifically the Rational Bible— sometimes I don't want to read it or sometimes I find it to be hard. In other words, not always is it this like amazing—

It's not entertaining.

Sometimes it's not entertaining, but I know I've got to get through it and I've got to internalize this and I've got to build myself into a strong person because because that is a worthy investment that is going to age really well. And I will be able to handle situations better at age 40 or 50 or 60 having had this infrastructure than if I didn't have it.

That's exactly right.

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There is a saying in the Talmud, the great compendium of thought and law of Judaism after the Bible, which a lot of its insights we memorized as a kid.

Who is that?

Yeah, exactly. Who is the wise person? The one who sees what will be born. You, you are asking what will be born.

You know what, another thing I've done, and it sounds a bit contradictory because I do have a professional Instagram, I have deleted my personal Instagram. I used to have one where I followed my friends and they followed me and I would post photos of my life. And on my birthday this past year, on my 23rd birthday, I deleted it because I thought one day we are all going to wake up to the fact that social media rots our brains. We are going to wake up to the fact that we have spent years of our lives scrolling. And sometimes, I mean, it is fun to go on social media. It's a nice escape from life. But again, when I'm older, I have a feeling that I'm going to be happy that I weaned myself off of it so young. I don't know. Maybe I will be 40, Dennis, and wish I had gone to more bars. Probably. Maybe just a few. I probably wish I— I will wish that I had supplemented more fun. Yeah, but I don't think I'll regret all of it.

Well, the question— no, no, I would agree with you if you have fun at bars. Do you?

I mean, it depends on which bar and it depends on who I'm with.

Okay, that— I, I, you know, I'm a big fan of your having fun. I, I think most people do too much fun, right? But I, I, I want you to have more fun. Obviously— not obviously, I just want to state that. Will you look back and say, I wish I did? Only if you burn out, which is a concern of mine, as you know. The only time you would ever look back and ask, why didn't I go to more bars or have more fun, is if you burn out at 40, which could happen. So, but otherwise, look, you have a good pressure cooker release because you're goofy, so it's not like you're always serious. Thank God.

Thank God.

Yeah. So you have a release. You know how to have fun in the sense of your demeanor.

I think a lot of listeners would be shocked to hear that because I come— Yes, I come off quite serious on air.

Yeah. That'll— it'll come naturally. Don't, don't force it. But, but I'm just— so for those who don't know, this Julie has— is, is a character. You know my theory on characters, because I can't get over my revelation of the last few years.

Nature?

No. Oh, nature, definitely. But, but that I knew about. Well, I think I knew character was built in. No, my revelation is that there are at least as many women characters as men characters. I always thought there were more male characters. I do not believe that now. I have actually been meeting more female characters than men characters.

Are your friends mostly characters?

No.

Yeah, I paused because I was thinking of that. They're not.

Alan Estrin is the antithesis. He's the anti-character, like the Antichrist.

Alan Estrin's in the category of himself.

Right. Well, all right.

But if you think about our Shabbat dinner crew—

No. So you name one who's a character.

I think Michael's a character.

He borders on it. He's lighthearted. I don't know if he's a character. It's not— look, characters are maybe 10% of the population, maybe 5%, but I can't believe how many female characters have been— by the way, that almost is disturbing to me. It's sort of like deadened males that I meet. Look, Groucho Marx is—

Wait, I'm sorry, what concerns you? That there's—

That there aren't so many male characters as I once thought there were. Because you've got to march to the beat of a different drummer to be a character. By definition, 90% of the people aren't, and it is built in. But I, I, it's like the low testosterone levels and all these other things that they're noting about young males. I, I, I just wonder. Anyway, it's not— I don't— I, I want to go back to your peers.

Yes.

You said make a name for themselves, make money, and there's nothing else to do. So we've gathered nothing else to do, which is very troubling because most people aren't going to have a blast. And again, I just got to repeat it because repetition is the mother of pedagogy, one of my phrases, that they don't have religion and they don't have any immediate plans to marry, let alone make a family. So they put all of their meaning eggs in the profession basket, which is for most people truly suicidal.

I gotta work on that.

Yeah, yes, but here's the irony. You do— everyone has to work on it, but you do have an incredibly meaningful job. Oh, it's I mean, so, so if anybody would not be as guilty as others for putting their, their meaning eggs in the professional basket, it would be you, because this is meaningful work. You get to share with any number of human beings the things that most matter to you. No, almost nobody on earth can say that.

See, As I'm thinking about my peers who go to these financial institutions, I realize that their priorities are the exact reverse of what they should be. When it comes to their career, they think they have to put themselves on this long-term path early on, you know, to go into these financial institutions so that they can climb the ladder of that financial institution or maybe go start their own firm. They think they have to specialize and stay in that lane when it comes to their occupation. But then when they're with their personal life— lives, excuse me— they think that they can mess around. For instance, many men— waste time. Well, yeah, waste time. Many men and— I'm sorry, Mike, I've been here.

Punishment room, Sean. Punishment room, definitely.

You know, we're recording Dennis and Julie.

Oh my God, you are going to learn to beep. More professional. That's what you're going to do.

Sorry, it was a spam call. It was a spam call. I'm sorry. That's hilarious.

So did you put the phone off?

Yeah, I put it off. My apologies.

I think we should keep it just to show.

Yeah. See, that's a moment of my character-ness.

That's true.

You're right. But I'm saying in one, it should be the opposite. In the professional arena, they specialize too much and they're too rigid. But then in the personal arena, they think that they can mess around hook up with people for all of their 20s, you know, not be involved in their communities, not have a spiritual life. It should be the opposite. In your career, I'm not saying you should not take your career seriously, but career-wise, it's the time, I think, to experiment, to take risks and try stuff out. In the personal life, you've got to take it seriously and build the infrastructure in the relationship.

Invest now. I'll give you just an example that has nothing to do with family or religion. Why don't they take a year to travel?

I was just about to bring that up. Yes, I, I can't think of one person—

age of 21 to a full-time, I don't know, 60-hour-a-week job chained to a desk crunching numbers, right? Yes. Chained to a desk.

Also, when you went to Harvard and you have this huge, robust alumni base and you have, you know, I mean, we have a— this is why people go to Harvard, and it's a great thing. We have this alumni database, and you can go in and type in anyone who went to Harvard, and you have their email or your home address. You can go reach out to someone who works in London and see if you can have an apprenticeship or something. We have such— we're so lucky to have those resources, and then we can sign ourselves to this life.

It was as important to me at your age to see the world as to get married. Yeah, and I did, and I did. I— every single year of my life except 2020, I went to another country or countries.

Well, you said get married. Do you mean travel?

No, no, no, I mean— oh, I said married?

Yeah, you said—

oh, okay.

I mean, both are true.

It was as important to me to travel as to get married. That's what I meant to say. I, I It is very hard for me to get sad because I work so hard on not being sad. I think if I did the work your graduate— fellow graduates from college did, I would have to combat depression. I would find the work meaningless, hard, long, and I would be stuck in New York.

Gosh, you hate New York.

I really do. I admit it.

I got to tell you, all the people my age are in New York.

I know. And you flirted with it. It was a big— it was a big—

and LA is geographically much more difficult to—

yeah, because it's not centered. Yeah, there's no downtown like—

so do you hate LA as much as you hate New York?

No.

Why? Well, I know your friends are here, but Yeah, my dislike of New York—

and if there are New Yorkers watching, obviously I'm well aware of—

you're a New Yorker.

Yes, there are wonderful people in New York, I know that. But by and large, a lot of the worst ideas come from New York, and New Yorkers as a rule are very insular. They really believe the world ends at the East River and the Hudson River. They really do. That was the famous— have you— you know the famous New Yorker cover?

No.

Oh, that— oh, you must look. Just write famous New Yorker cover and it'll come up. They had a— it showed America. So you have a picture of the country, a map of the country, as it were. And you have New York, then there's this empty space in the middle, San Francisco or Los Angeles, I don't remember which one. And that's why it's called flyover country, right? To the two people on the two coasts, Nebraska and Iowa are simpletons. They are sophisticated. But I lived in New York City. They're simpletons. What did I ever tell you? My Nashville— oh, you'll love this. My life was changed by Nashville, Tennessee.

Oh, I've never been. Dying to go.

Yeah, you should. You should go everywhere. So this is, this is truly an autobiographical insight. So I grew up in New York City, and by the way, for the record, I used— I grew up in Brooklyn. I went to Manhattan 4 nights a week in high school, just, just to sample its culture. I loved it, I have to admit, especially the music, the music scene. I went to concerts almost every week. So I went to museums. I appreciated New York culture. Okay, so I had, I had, from your age, I began lecturing at 21, so You know, you're an anomaly, I lived an anomaly. Why did I lecture at 21? 'Cause I was in the Soviet Union and I came back to lecture on the Soviet Union. Very few people had gone there then. Okay, so I was lecturing at 21 already. One of my first lectures outside of New York City was Nashville, Tennessee. It was very exciting to me. I'm being flown, I'm 23 years old, I'm being flown to Tennessee I was so excited. But of course, I was a New Yorker and I assumed, oh, I'm going to meet basically, you know, maybe sweet people, but hicks. Exactly. And Nashville is when I decided— that trip is when I decided I'm not going to live in New York if I can. If I can.

Wow. Yeah.

What I, what I saw were not only kinder people, just nicer people.

And probably fuller people too.

Oh, lead full lives and were not one whit intellectually inferior to the people who thought they were their intellectual superiors in Manhattan. Look, they think that in Manhattan about Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens, and Staten Island, not just about Nashville.

I agree with your characterization of New Yorkers, but I bring it back to LA. Aren't LA people similar?

Well, I just want to say, when I came to LA as you're in your— basically your age in the '70s. I thought this was the friendliest town in the world compared to New York City. It was.

That is true.

Cars stopped if you crossed the street. In New York, they ran you over. It was a game of chicken crossing the street.

I will say, though, in L.A., yes, people smile at you more on the street, but it's superficial. Okay. It's fake.

Okay. I'm not in the street as often as I was then. I don't know. You may well be right. But frankly, I prefer fake smiles to no smiles.

That's fair.

That's my view. Oh, when they— when people say, have a nice day, it's pro forma. They really probably don't care what your day is. I prefer that to nothing.

That's a New York thing because going to school in Boston, I found that people would smile at you on the street.

In Boston?

Yes.

Yeah, Boston has its own issues because Boston is surrounded by colleges, so its values are really perverted in my opinion. You know Buckley's famous line, right? I'd rather be governed by the first 2,000 names in the Boston phone book than 2,000 Harvard faculty.

Yes.

I'd rather be governed by the first 2,000 people in the Boston telephone directory than by the 2,000 people on the faculty of Harvard University. He got that fast.

I couldn't— I can't hear him.

Sean played William F. Buckley.

Oh wow.

That's why I have earphones on. Julie doesn't.

As you would say, button F blue, 49, left corner.

I never say left corner.

Fair enough.

Yeah, yeah, he said she has so much to learn. I am proud of my engineering jargon. Did you do, uh, did you do green plus yellow today, Sean? You did. All right. You impressed?

Mildly.

Okay.

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We move on.

So back to the piers. We talked about the—

no, no, I know, I, I know, but I, I just I, I can't let that go of not wanting to live life. What are they going to do? You realize this? I, I have begged young people never to even go from high school to college. I remember saying when I lectured college kids, got a college retreat institute, which is why I came out to LA. And I was only a few years older than them, I said, hey, listen, either after college or in college or right after high school, do you understand the odds are you have 70 more years, maybe 80, to live? Why are you in a rush to go to graduate school or to college or to get a job? Why are you in a rush? And by the way, if you get a job, I every one of your peers would end up a fuller, better person if they were a waiter or waitress this year?

100%.

Well, in Nebraska?

Yes. The problem is, Dennis, and look, I as a conservative believe in individual responsibility and that at a certain point you can't blame your parents or your teachers or whoever, you know, may have contributed to bad parts of your upbringing. You have to fix your own problems. But that being said, most of my peers, I sort of don't blame them for the path that they're on because the possibilities of life were not presented to us when we were younger. I'll give you a seemingly weird but significant example. So before the show, everyone, we were sitting here goofing off per usual, and I just picked up Dennis Prager's pen right there Do you mind if I grab it? And started writing. This pen is the most magnificent pen to write with. It was so fun to just write my name on the paper. I'm not going to disclose how much the pen costs, but it cost a lot of money.

Many hundreds of dollars.

Many hundreds of dollars. I know it sounds stupid to say, as I was writing with this pen, I thought, wow, that's one part of life I don't know about. There are these cool—

I love you for it. There are these cool writing instruments. That is the right way to react.

That where if you write, it looks like a piece of artwork.

When I do my third hour on Fridays on my radio show, that's the hour I say call in on anything. Every other hour of the week, there's— people follow the topic I raise. Anything you want, especially— and then I go classical music, audio equipment, photography equipment, cigars, or fountain pens. People think it's a joke or it's truly idiosyncratic. It might be idiosyncratic. My belief is enjoy everything. So I love the fact that you, you commented on the pen.

It was a magic— I, again, you know, it sounds corny. It was a magical moment for me.

Yes, it's exactly right.

Because I went, wow, I could explore— this is another thing in life I could explore. I could go online and look up writing instruments and test them out and see I mean, can we hold up—

Do you know the only reason I don't believe that Julie is a reincarnation of me is that I'm not dead.

And you're not a woman.

Oh, you can reincarnate as the other sex.

Fair enough. But we growing up, it was the possib— okay, I'm not saying that, I'm not lamenting the fact that someone, a teacher didn't walk up to us and go, hey, here's a fountain pen, it's cool to write with. But that, my point is—

There was no other option.

Exploring life's possibilities was not the purpose. It was, you know, I remember I had a test in high school and I'm sorry, I know I've said this before. I feel like I disparage my high school a lot. When I was there, I loved it. And there were many wonderful parts of it that has made me who I am and I will always be grateful for. That being said, in 11th grade, let me tell you what my final exam was in my English class. We had, 77 pieces of writing, whether they were Shakespearean sonnets or the book Beowulf or, you know, just 77 different things that we read that semester. On the final exam, half of the exam, the first part of it which counted for half of your grade, was that the teacher was going to give you 10 random quotes or random paragraphs and you had to identify specifically which text it came from, what, or in the case of the Shakespearean sonnet, what number the sonnet is in. You're kidding me. No, the number of the sonnet, what year the sonnet was written, and then you had to analyze it. So let me tell you what happened. For 3 weeks, I was in my room memorizing sonnet number 79 uses this word a lot, sonnet number 6, and, I mean, really? That's half of our grade is to be able to identify what bleeping number of a Shakespearean sonnet the random quote was from?

I actually think it's great.

Why? It's great for you because you didn't have to take the test.

Correct. I'll tell you why I think it's great. For those who think we always agree, here's an example. I think it's great because the more you memorize when you're a young person, the more it'll come in handy later.

Okay, that's fair. But let me, let me give you another example. When I was in 6th grade, my elementary school, to their great credit, made us memorize every country and capital. That is a great way to—

You did?

Yes.

Capital of Albania?

Oh, damn it. I don't know.

Okay.

Sean?

I learned capitals when I was a kid. I, I can't tell you. I actually— there are endorphins being secreted at this moment. That is how much happiness this memory brings me. Oh, so I collected baseball cards, which most kids today don't collect, but I did. And it was everybody, every boy did. But they had other cards, and I don't remember the year, but I was in elementary school. They had flag cards.

I know we've talked about this, and a listener—

yes, somebody sent— I know, Steve, and I showed you. Thank you. You remember that it was Steve?

I remember his last name too, but I don't want to, uh, say it, just— I don't know.

I understand.

In an abundance of caution. But Steve, I know you're—

by the way, I note that the pen is really, uh, staying in your vicinity.

Yes, I know. I was hoping you, you wouldn't notice, and slowly it will inch away.

Yes, I gather it I— listen, next time you're at the house, I will show you my fountain pen collection.

Oh, you don't think I've seen it?

Do you know who got into it?

Who?

Sue.

I'm now into it.

Sue is crazy about pens now. Crazy. She's into rollerball, ballpoint, but—

I will tell you, when I first met you— what is it now, 2 years ago? Wow.

It's hard to believe.

It is. When you said that you had this obsession with fountain pens, Pans. Pans.

Right.

Pens. I thought it was cute or endearing, but I didn't get it. I got it 20 minutes ago or however long.

I love it.

It is so cool. But back to this discussion because it really is so important. What I try to do with my show Timeless, and I don't know if I'm doing the best job of it because I'm trying to unlearn this academic habit I have. I'm trying to explore different parts of life and alert them to the viewer because I feel like so many people have myopic focuses. Is focuses a word? Foci?

Foci sounds pompous, but it is the word.

It is the word?

It's quite fine. Focuses is good.

So for instance, I just read this marvelous book about American cemeteries and their history and how people would dig up dead bodies of famous people or presidents and try to sell their parts. And I thought, you know, that would be a really cool show to talk to people about the history of American cemeteries. Does it have to do with politics? No. Does it have to do with Republican or Democrat or the state of the United States?

Or—

and by the way, I love talking about those topics, and those are a big part of my show. But like you, I want to alert people to all of the other topics in life.

Well, the like you, that is one like you. The real like you is I, Julie, love everything.

I do love everything.

That's the point.

But I struggle, I will say this, and I'm being very open, I'm really trying to get over it. I struggle to not academicize, I know that's not a word, but I'm coining it now. I struggle not to academicize everything.

Well, no, no, no, you struggle not to sound like an academic. You—

yes, that's what I mean.

That— no, I'm trying to make it clear for the listener that that's the, that's the point. Your shows are phenomenal because one learns an immense amount, and that's really my, my, my aim when I listen to anybody, podcast, talk radio, whatever it might be. But yeah, I understand that worry. Again, since we both believe in transparency, the trick— anyone who wants to do a podcast should learn from this— people will stay with you. And I, and I have a— I have the greatest longevity record in radio in America, I believe, today. People will stay with you if they know you. They need to know you. You can't— you must be a repository of information or there's no reason to listen. But they, they, they need to feel that they know you. They're not listening to Julie the academic, Julie the person.

How do you— what has been your strategy of infusing that without relentlessly saying I, I, I, right?

Exactly. Or sounding narcissistic. Yeah. I guess the one immediate thing that comes to mind is I give them a real reaction, a human reaction to a story. People will write to me and say, I really know you were upset today. I find that interesting. Why would they care? Isn't it only— it's not only what I'm saying. If they, if they have some care about Julie or some care about Dennis, that, that happens on my fireside chat. You know, I took— you know, many people know the most common comment I get. Well, actually, the most common comment I get when I meet people at airports or restaurants was usually where I meet them. Is, "God, I didn't know you were that tall." Yeah, that's very funny. Which, how would they know? I'm seated all the time. The second most common comment is, "I feel like I know you." That's a big deal, and that's what I want you to get. "Julie, I feel like I know you." By the way, they do from Dennis and Julie. Yes, it's much tougher.

It's tough when you're sitting there just talking.

Well, that's my famous statement when young people have asked me So how do I know if I could be a talk show host? Very simple. Sit alone in a room for 3 hours and be interesting, and then they decide they'll be a waiter.

That's true.

Which, by the way, I gave myself a subject for a show and for a column with this waiter thing. If your kid just graduated from college, beg them urge them, pay them not to, not to go to law school, not to be in, in finances in Manhattan, but to be a waiter, ideally, ideally in Middle America.

I learned more during my quote regular job than just about any college course I took. I was a camp counselor.

Oh, that's the best. Oh, I was a camp counselor for years.

It was So hard.

That's the human condition.

Yes. It was just like— and by the way, it was also spectacularly fun. But this, this camp that I worked at—

how old were your, your campers?

They ranged from 5 years old to 14.

Really?

Yes, it was. And it was a camp that I went to.

All girls?

No, no.

You had boy campers?

And it was on the beach.

So it wasn't a sleepaway camp?

No, no.

It was a day camp. I was— mine was a sleepaway camp.

It was 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. Okay. And the person who, who ran the camp, and as I just mentioned, I went to that camp when I was younger, so it was so fun and interesting and informative to remember what that camp was like as a kid and then come back to work at it as an adult. And that camp is run by this guy who lives actually in Tennessee during the rest of the year, but then in the summers comes back to Los Angeles to run this camp on the beach. And he every single morning wakes up at 5 AM and takes a big U-Haul truck, drives it to the beach, unloads it by himself. He takes out cabanas, he takes out gymnastics equipment, he takes out soccer balls, cones, you know, I mean, there's this spin the wheel game, this huge wheel that he brings out. I mean, every single morning sets it up, has all these Rugrats kids and I was one of them, come in screaming, yelping, running into the— and like he every single day he does it. And then at the end of the day, at 4 or 5 PM, he takes all that crap and puts it back into the U-Haul truck and does it every single day for the summer. I learned more watching that and participating in that and seeing true entrepreneurship and a reg— just like a regular person job than I ever learned in my fancy courses at Harvard. And by the way, I did learn a lot in some— in many of my fancy courses at Harvard. It's not a back of the hand to them, but having that real-life experience was just amazing. And I'll say this one thing. I know I'm going on, but I'm so enthusiastic about this camp. He found so many ways to make the experience creative, and he would— there were these cabanas and you would have cabana competitions. Among the kids, and whatever cabana won the competition would get these, uh, prizes, these candy prizes. And you'd open them, and one of the candy prizes, he would put a golden ticket in. And then the kid who got the golden ticket would like spin the wheel to do the next game. In other words, I really saw the amount of ingenuity and creativity he went into making, pulling that thing off.

That's the word I use— passion.

Learning that, just that approach to life, so much better than sitting in front of a computer crunching numbers because you got to be creative in life. Anyway, that's my sermon.

I'm going to really push this.

Sorry, I went on.

No, no, it was great. I'm going to really push this.

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Your kid went to Princeton? Berkeley?

It's a great—

look, I mean, the truth is, I would say it if your kid went to Boise State. However, they don't need— uh, in Boise State, you are in touch with humanity, I believe, more than at Princeton. These are— what are they? Ivy League towers is what they call them. Isolated places. Yeah, it's a, it's a very big deal forcing you. You won't— first of all, if you're a waiter or waitress, you won't think you're the center of the world like you will graduating some prestigious college and going to some finance firm or, or banking, banking facility, whatever it might be. Or law school. And what is the rush? That's what I asked when I was your age and I was lecturing college kids basically my age. What's the rush?

I'll tell you what part of the rush is. We see people like, uh, well, I guess Elon Musk achieved his fortune a little bit older, but we see people like Zuckerberg or Sam, Sam Bankman-Fried, and that becomes your model. Because—

OMG, I can't believe it.

Wait, well, let me tell you why. It's because, and you know, I mean, what Zuckerberg did, and I don't like the guy, I think he's, I mean, he's ruined our country in many ways, but it's amazing what he did at Harvard to start that company and grow it the way he has. I mean, of course I tip my hat off to him in that way, but when schools, and I get why they're doing this, but I think it it gives a bad impression and sends a bad message to us. They bring in Mark Zuckerberg as the commencement speaker.

Oh, I thought of that.

You can be Mark Zuckerberg or even Sam Bankman-Fried, who's a fraudster.

But you know why? I— it's so interesting. If you just gave me an insight into me there, there at no time in my life was there a cell in my body And we have trillion cells in our body that wanted to be rich and famous. It didn't occur to me.

Wow. That's hard. That's hard for me to digest.

No, I realize that. Especially if you go to Harvard and you're told all the time you are the next— you are the leaders, you are the future leaders, you're the future leaders, you're the crème de la crème.

Or as my dean said, I have no doubt that your generation is going to make the world a better place. I thought, I have no doubt my generation's gonna make the world a worse place. That's exactly correct. I know that sounds awful.

Well, I felt that about my generation and I was right.

So did you have people like, you know, Zuckerberg equivalents or—

Well, I didn't go to my college graduation, so I have no idea.

I just mean in American culture, were there those equivalents of the young?

Oh, that's a very interesting point.

I don't think there were.

No, no, certainly not. In the financial realm like that. The models, so to speak, were actors and actresses, athletes. Those were the heroes, I guess.

Also, the problem is it's so easy to temporarily attain fame right now. If you go on social media and put a hashtag, you can go viral and you can amass hundreds of thousands of followers in literally 2 days. And then that can, you know, that can last for some time. So the availability of recognition and fame and money fuels this, by the way, self-perception.

You read 2 of my 3 volumes of the Bible commentary, The Rational Bible, so thoroughly. So you will remember this. One of the earliest stories in the first book, Genesis, is of people who wanted to be famous.

Babel.

The people who built the Tower of Babel, they said it, let's make a name for us. That, that's why you should— people should read the Bible. The, the, the, the reason the Bible is still relevant is that it is about human nature, which is unchanged. I am identical in my nature to prehistoric man.

So Dennis and I— I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but whenever you're doubting whether or not to say something on Dennis and Julie, the answer is always to just say it, right? Dennis and I contributed to this book that is going to be published called, uh, Elevator Pitches for God.

Oh yeah, that's right.

And you have to write— the, the contributors had to write 500 words.

No, 100. Oh, is it 500?

Oh my God. Well, if it's 100, I'm screwed. I think it's— I think it's 500. Did you write 100?

I don't know. I have to look it up.

Well, look it up, because that's pretty important.

Maybe it was 500.

I'm nearly certain it's 500. I mean, 100 would be, I think, right?

No, I agree. 500 is two-thirds of one column. Okay. Yeah.

500 words as to why you believe in God. Now, I lost my train of thought. What were we—

So, yeah.

Oh, yes. And one of the things that I said, I'd be very interested to know what your arguments were, though obviously I'm quite well-versed in them. One of the things I said was God whispers his divinity through the Bible and how eternally relevant it is. I mean, to think that thousands of years ago, the Bible, to your point, was so spot on about human nature and about the elemental issues and choices and questions that we all face constantly.

That's right.

I mean, like that, that alone, that alone is—

Well, so that's why I have a line that I know no one ever heard before. Usually you come out with a good line, somebody will have said it, you know, in 1853 or something. But this one I've never, I never heard. So my commentaries on the first 5 books, which are really primus inter pares, they're first among equals of the Bible. The first 5 books are the most important. And everyone would agree, Jesus would have agreed, Moses would have agreed, everybody would agree. So that's, it's called the Torah, and that's what I write about. So I have a line which you've heard, but I don't know if I've mentioned it publicly like this. I don't believe in the Torah because I believe in God. I believe in God because I believe in the Torah. It is so profound, so millennia ahead of its time, so moral I mean, one of my arguments for the divinity of the Torah is how badly the Jews are depicted.

Yes, I— it's such an excellent point.

So yes, it really is. I love that you love the boys and people in general, right? People in general. But if Jews wrote it, if humans wrote it, in this case Jews, why would they depict themselves negatively?

It's— it's— I think that may be and it's— this is a hard thing to determine. I think that may be your most compelling argument because it's unanswerable. It is.

There is no parallel in any civilization where your holy book depicts that group negatively. God is so annoyed with the Jews, he says to Moses, I'd like to destroy them. And Moses, quote unquote, talks him out of it, which you'll get to. You haven't gotten there yet.

You know, I'm going to do a complete 180 that you may not expect, but I have been thinking about this. And it's a—

By the way, where's my pen? It was on the desk. I don't know.

I don't know where it went. It's right here.

All right. So I know what to get you for your birthday.

By the way, I've been kind of fiddling with it under the, under the table here. Well, sorry, there's a piece of hair. But how do you close it? Does it screw like that?

Yes, that's right.

Oh, this is, this is an elite pen. You don't just go like that. No, no, no.

This is elite.

I'm telling you this. I didn't get his obsession. I get it now. God, it's so expensive.

Do you know when I sign a check to cash it at the bank, every teller who is your age basically looks at it and goes, what is that? They're fascinated because the color that comes out of the nib is so gorgeous and rich.

It is really cool. I will tell you my 180, but before that, in typical Dennis Prager exit ramp fashion, How did you discover fountain pens?

My brother, my older brother.

Oh.

I idolized him when I was in elementary school and high school, and I saw him writing with it. I have to get to him and ask him why he was writing with one. And I just saw it come out. I remember the color. It was called Peacock Blue by Parker Ink. It was turquoise. And I wrote with turquoise, almost every entry into my high school diary is in turquoise.

Okay, again, so exit rampy, but writing, so last episode we were talking about how having good clothing elevates you.

Yep.

It elevates your conduct.

It elevates people's reactions to you.

People's reactions to you. I believe that writing with this, of course it elevates your handwriting, I think it elevates your thought. Thoughts and elevates the content of what you're writing.

Well, writing in general does, as opposed to doing this.

Well, certainly that's true, but I just mean seeing like the beautiful calligraphy that this pen can produce, I think sort of gives you an idea that your ideas have a divine touch because they look so beautiful.

I signed my name 6,000 times in the past year for books.

With this?

With my whole assortment of fountain pens. It's what makes it bearable because it's very hard to sign your name 6,000 times.

So my final question is, do you like just write for fun? I know that you use this practically to sign books, to sign checks, but when you get your new fountain pen—

Well, I'll tell you one interesting thing that I think people will find of interest. So, you know, I've given literally thousands of speeches. In almost every case, I have written notes for my speech. I could speak for 10 hours without one note and be interesting, but the reason I write notes is I don't want to forget the points I need to make. It's like a moral duty. And I don't print them, I write them. For whatever reason, they stay in my mind, which is true. They've done— they have done actually research. If you handwrite ideas or thoughts or statistics, you are more likely to remember it than if you type it. So I write it, and I, I'm so used to it. I, I don't like reading from print or the notes. I like doing it from, from handwritten. So that's another use that I have for my pen and signing restaurant bills.

Okay, total 180. And you may not expect this or me to say this, but nevertheless, it's something I contemplate. So I believe this is a Voltairian argument that I am adopting as my own. But isn't it kind of easy for someone like me or someone like you to believe in God because we've our lives are so good and we've been exposed to— well, in the case of me especially, I've been exposed to your great work. Like, what— think about someone not just on the other side of the world. There are many, unfortunately, poor and destitute people here in the United States. But think of someone in a country who literally— who has just an awful, wretched, primitive, soap, dirt-poor way of life, has never encountered any of this.

Like, I have an answer for you. There were some things about, about suffering I can't answer. This I can. The fact is that the more affluent people get, the less they believe in God.

Well, that's true.

So that answers you. But no, it's not that it's easier for us. It, it's, it's worth asking, why does the— why do the affluent generally believe that they're atheists or secular. They don't think they need God because— and that's worthy of its own discussion, which we should have one day. This is my anger at religious people who depict God as a butler. See, if you depict God as a butler, you're producing atheists. What is a butler? Oh, please give me this. Please, please heal me. Please save me. Please give me an income. Please do this. This is what I call the celestial butler view of God. I never had it, I don't have it. Why does it produce atheists? First of all, the people who ask God for things and they don't get them then say, oh, there is no God. Second, the rich say, I don't need a God. I have my health, I have my money, I have my great life. What do I need God for?

Right.

So the, the The celestial butler God produces nonbelievers. That's the irony.

I hear you and I agree, but still, even though culturally it does seem that affluent people are less likely to believe in God, it still is so easy for someone, for people in our position to believe because we're, again, I'm kind of, I still believe in God, but I'm playing devil's advocate.

No, but I, no, it's a very fair argument. Argument, but it just doesn't hold true.

But if we were—

it's not easy for— if it were easy for affluent people to believe in God, they would.

But it— I mean, in the scheme of life, it is comparatively easy to believe in God if you're wealthier.

Yes, it turns out not to be the case culturally in the West.

The tide is against you, but it's way easier as a— in the scheme of life as an affluent person to believe in God than as a non-affluent person. I don't know. I want to—

It doesn't turn out that way. The fact remains, what is this? A famous line, you'll love it. I don't think you've heard me say this one. It's a great line. Let's see. He's a self-made man and he believes in his creator. That's, that's what most affluent people are. So they think they're self-made men or women. And they believe in their creator themselves. Yeah, right, exactly. So that's— I— before we leave, I just want to review. I, I can't get this out of my mind. Your peers, money. So money, fame, and, and, uh, money, name, making a name. Yes, that's fair enough. Money, making a name. What was the third one? Oh, there was nothing else to do. We covered the nothing else to do. And money, uh, money is obvious. What is— what is— so the making a name, that's why you gave the Zuckerberg example. Okay, so that's very important to them, to stand out as particularly successful.

Names and status and resume things.

That's, that's why— why waste a year being a waiter?

Everything.

So they're throwing their lives away in pursuit of nonsense.

It is nonsense because they don't know the You don't know the alternative.

Well, right, because they weren't given wisdom.

Yes.

They didn't read the Rational Bible.

No.

They didn't read any Bible.

I'll end with this. I was at a wedding this past weekend and I was sitting next to an oncological nurse who was a lovely, lovely person. I was very lucky to have been seated next to her.

That's a cancer nurse for those of you who don't know.

Yes, see, I know what it is now. Remember, because I got it wrong a few episodes ago. I know an oncological nurse. A cancer nurse now, thank you very much. Anyway, she was talking to me about some of her patients who have died. We were having a very deep conversation. And so of course, the next logical question I asked her was, well, do you believe in God? She very affirmatively immediately said no. And then I said, have you read the Bible? And she said no. Maybe it sounds stupid to continue to ask this question because I was once this person. It is the weirdest thing that people can be so sure of something that they've never explored.

I know.

And it's the same thing with racism. People are so sure that there is racism out there.

That is, that's what I meant when I spoke about the New Yorkers. They're so sure.

Many of them have never seen instances of racism. People who are so sure that there's no God have never read the Bible.

Right.

It's really creepy. And do they not see that it's just cultural manipulation?

They don't. Well, on that happy note, that is exactly right. So next time you come over, you'll tell me your favorite fountain pen.

My favorite fountain pen? Well, I don't know if I can afford all the fancy fountain pens.

I'll get you one.

There are multiple.

When's your birthday?

October 14th.

Oh, good. It's way, way in the distance.

Thanks, Vera. Actually, I'm happy too, because that means I have more time to be 23. That's correct.

Exactly right.

More time to be young.

By the way, for the record, and it means nothing, but I'll just add this. My happiest birthday that I remember is 24. I remember my 24th birthday and thinking, I know it can't get better than this. And I was right. My 20s were one of my two happiest decades.

That is very nice and encouraging to hear.

Well, I don't think it's true for a lot of people in their 20s.

Well, the thing that does excite—

it should be for you. You're in a happy time. I mean, all things considered.

Oh, of course. And I'm aware of that.

Despite your non-bar appearances.

You're working on it. You're working on me.

No, I'm working on appearances. I don't know about bars. I don't care if you go to a bar. It's a non-issue to me. I just care— I just want you to meet a great guy.

Some of the most important people in my life I haven't even met yet, like my kids or my grandkids.

Oh, that's a fascinating—

And that's cool to sit in my position and go, I haven't met some of the most important people. That will be a—

that is exciting—

painting of my life.

That is exciting.

Yes.

I will add some— I, uh, oh, I had a thing. I've always had great people in my life, as you well know, uh, but I, I had for a long time— wow, there's still a great piece of music I haven't heard.

That's so you. Well, it's so you'd also say there's still a great speaker I haven't tested out.

Say that again.

It's also so you to think there's also a great speaker or a great piece of audio equipment out there that I haven't tested yet.

Oh, speaker. I thought you meant one who speaks. Oh, audio speaker. No, no, no, audio speaker. Yes, of course that's true. Oh my God, it's a major source of excitement.

I still need to come over and listen to the—

How do they reach you?

julie@julie-hartman.com. I've been horrible about responding, but Later today I have blocked off time in my calendar and I'm going to respond to many of you. Thank you for continuing to write to me. And please follow us @DennisJuliePod on Instagram and Twitter, even though I bash social media on this podcast.

Dennis Julie Pod?

Yes. Oh, and you will also see if you go—

Where do people watch us?

Oh, they watch us on YouTube or listen on Spotify.

And how do they find us on YouTube?

They type in Dennis and Julie.

That's all that you have to do.

That's all you have to do.

On YouTube specifically.

Yes. And if you go to Dennis Julie Pod, uh, the Instagram page, or my Instagram page, which is Julie R. Hartman, you may see a funny video of a certain animal.

Oh my God, yes.

I'll leave it at that. I promise you it will be worth it.

Fair.

See you next time.

Bye, y'all.