Believe What You Say

Hello there, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. Dennis and Julie. Richard Friedman wrote the music, and I, I really I love it. Doesn't it put you in the mood for the show as soon as you hear it?

It's very classy and elegant, which of course we are, right? We are nothing if not classy and elegant.

All of that is accurate, but you didn't answer my question. Does the music— you don't have to say yes.

I will be honest, yeah, that I got so used to our old music, remember that? Yeah, that this one is still— when I hear it, oh, it's still an adjustment.

Oh, that's interesting. I'm totally adjusted. It's actually not— it's in the genre of the original.

Yeah, it is. No, he did a great job. I'm sure.

Yeah, no, we asked him to do that. That is correct. I want you to know I should have— you know what, I told you this before, right before we went on now, and I shouldn't have. I mean it, I shouldn't have. But anyway, I'll tell you because I want everybody to hear this. So it's been fundraising month for PragerU on my radio show, and I have a young PragerU person almost every day, and people love it. It's really a highlight of fundraising month on my show because these are so, so wonderful, these kids, and it gives people hope for good reason. It's not irrational hope. So I had this terrific 20-year-old young woman, a pre-med student in Buffalo, New York, and she noted that she watches every— or listens to every fireside chat, my PragerU, Dennis into the camera, 5, almost 6 years now, and Dennis and Julie. And she added, I didn't ask her, I didn't prompt her, it was completely from her, Julie is such an inspiration to me.

That is really touching. Dennis did tell me that before the show and I said to him, I want her to email me. By the way, I want everyone to email me. Olivia, please.

Email her, yeah.

And I said to Dennis, I have made friends through this show. I mean, there are people my age, and by the way, not my age. One of my best friends in the entire world is you, 74 years old. And you know, from the Shabbat crew, I mean, most of them are over the age of 60, and I would honestly, as weird as it may sound, I consider them some of my close friends too. So I don't discriminate based on age. So anyone, I wanna be friends with anyone, but I have gotten a lot of emails from people my age, and that's been really nice to know that there are others like me out there. Because it's interesting, because the people who email me say to me that I prove to them that there are other people our age out there in the world that have our values. And I think they may think of me as— because I'm in the position that I'm in, that I know a lot of people my age with whom I share similar values, but I don't. So when they email me, it's just as affirming and hopeful for me as it is for them.

That's exactly right. By the way, you're noting about how many friends you're making through the show.

Mm-hmm.

I said to you, as soon as you said that to me, that everyone I am close to is a result, including my wife, is a result of my being a public figure. If you're a public figure with values, you're very lucky, because if you have really good values, it's not easy to meet a lot of people. And, but if you're a public figure with these values, it's infinitely easier.

It's really amazing. I've been reflecting on that a lot over the past few weeks that when Dennis says everyone in his life, you're not exaggerating.

That's right.

I mean, if we go through the roster, including your wife, me, I mean, right, you, Robert Florczak, who I had on my show, Alan. I mean, all of these people, a lot of the Shabbat crew, right? They're all because they listened to you and reached out to you.

Or in the cases of the two rabbis who were at our Shabbat dinners, they were students of mine. So it was, again, I was, I was, I wasn't, I didn't have a radio show at the time. I got it at the end of that work with them, but it doesn't matter. All of it is a result of that. It's been a very, very lucky thing in my life.

Well, as you like to say of me and others who take to your work, when before we were liberal, you get half the credit. Because it's a testament to you that you don't think of yourself as sort of above it. Like, oh, I'm not going to become friends with my fans. There are a lot of famous people who treat their fans in a transactional way. You marry your fans. You become best friends with your fans. You know, like, you really— you view it as an opportunity to meet cool people.

I think if you're a fan of mine, I think well of you. You're not a fan of mine because I'm a star. You're a fan of mine because of what I stand for.

Yep, no, I think one of the best parts about this job is the people that I get to meet through it, who email me, who email you and our listeners. I mean, it's just, I can't believe how lucky we are to have that.

Well, it's good.

And before we move on from this, I've been meaning to say this on Dennis and Julie, you know, at the end, I always publicize my email address, which I'm sure Dennis could recite now by heart, but just in case he can't, It's julie@julie-hartman.com, but I've been getting so many emails, which is obviously great. I wouldn't have it any other way, but I fret because I read all of them and then I forget to respond or I can't find them in the inbox. Forward me an email that you— if I didn't respond to you, it's not rude. Forward it to me so it's at the top of my inbox so I can see it again. That's my little statement.

Yeah, no, that's very fair. Look, you'll reach a point, hopefully, that it's just not possible to respond. Right now it's not possible, but it's important that people know that you read them.

Every single one. It's a highlight of my day. I check it like 3 times a day, and it's seriously the highlight.

I love that. I love that. So just— I know that you have something you want to, you want to address, which you did on Timeless. Mm-hmm, but I just— it's on the top of my mind. So on my radio show, I read— it's a New York Times piece. They took it very seriously. A group of women— and it's hard to get in, I mean, it's like there's a waiting list— but a group of women get together in the— on the Lower East Side. So these are obviously somewhat affluent and all, we presume, college graduates. That's my presumption. They get together at this woman's house. She is herself, I think, a model. And they, they sit and have dinner, a vegan dinner, I might add, naked. And the The whole article took it totally seriously, and they mean it totally seriously. And oh, I wish I had the phrase in front of me. What they— they were 4 characteristics, and the last one was self-love. So I looked at Alan and I said, Alan, when was the last time in your life you thought about self-love, that you love yourself. And you will be amazed to find this out. Hmm. Alan laughed. Now, for those who know Alan Estrin, my dear, dear friend, the producer of my radio show, the man whose idea PragerU was, rather valuable human in my life, I would say that I have seen him laugh maybe 3 times in 30 years.

I've never seen him laugh.

No, no. Well, it's like, it's like the Loch Ness Monster. I mean, you just, it's very rare to see it. It's a sighting. It's known as a sighting. A wry smile is a very big deal. He cracked up when I asked him, when was the last time you thought about how much you love yourself? The, it was so preposterous, even he laughed. And I was thinking, in my whole life I never thought, do I love myself? I do think, do I respect myself? I do, do I do? Because self-respect is huge in my life. Self-love plays no role, of which I am aware. And, and yet it is so big in the, in the woke circles and in the college-educated and in the progressive It's like there's no embarrassment at narcissism.

Yes, it's true. And you know, I'm not sure if these wokesters, these college-educated people, if they can even, if they even really know what it means.

Self-love?

Yes. I mean, I think they just say it superfluously, you know, just as a talking point. But I don't really know if, I guess what they think it means is love yourself despite your flaws and even love your flaws. Don't try to improve your behavior or criticize yourself. Embrace and appreciate all of yourself, even your malignant impulses and qualities. But I think a lot of people just say it and they don't get— they don't know what it means.

That's a very good point. I would, uh, you made me think here. I would like to ask them, could you, could you please define it? Yes.

What does it mean?

Well, it now helps me understand, I think, a little better The preoccupation with unconditional love, a term I don't like at all, and I don't believe should exist, maybe except maybe for, you know, a little baby. But otherwise, the idea that no matter how you behave, you're loved, is actually an immoral idea in my opinion. And I certainly don't know, I don't, I certainly don't ascribe it to God, and I don't even know where it arose because it is not biblical. Though a lot of religious people think, oh, God gives us unconditional love. I don't know where that statement comes from.

You did a video on it, or perhaps it was an article or something, but I remember sitting with you and Alan at the diner that you guys go to and going over the— whether it was an article or script— and you proved there that there's actually no basis for it in the Bible.

Right. And it started getting popular because Google has a very interesting thing.

N-grams. I did it on my show where you can try— you introduced me to it. You can try to know that was the name. Yes, of a phrase or a word in books over the past like 500 years. It's amazing.

Well, okay, I saw it for the last 100 or—

yeah, you know, you can, you can adjust.

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, well, it was zero. It was zero in 1900. Nobody used the term. They, they never heard of it. And then all of a sudden in the 1960s, it skyrockets. It's ironic. It's a secular term that shows again how deeply secular society influences religious people. This girl that I had on, so she's at a Jesuit college, which for some Catholics—

Olivia, you mean?

Yeah, it's not necessarily all that Catholic, but I mean, the Jesuits at one time were very Catholic, but Anyway, it doesn't matter. It's a Jesuit Catholic college. So I asked her the question that I ask, as you know, every young woman that I meet online, sitting next to me on an airplane.

The first question you ever— literally, "Hi, I'm Dennis. Let me ask you a question." Is that right? Yes.

Oh, that's cool.

First 10 words he ever said to me.

Okay. Okay. So good. So you're a living proof of my— of the truth of my statement. So I ask, I'm offering you two guarantees. A lot of people who've heard me heard this, but doesn't matter. The punchline is what she said. So I'm gonna ask you, Olivia, a question that I ask all the women I meet under 30, or nearly all. If you could be offered two guarantees, which— and you could only take one of them, it doesn't mean you cannot have the other. That's always important for people to understand. Only one is guaranteed, but it doesn't mean the other is not attainable. So I'm offering you two guarantees: a great marriage or a great career. Which guarantee would you take? She immediately said marriage, which I assumed— I assumed, knowing her and her love of Dennis and Julie and my fireside chat and PragerU, I had a feeling that's what she'd say. That's not the punchline. Here's the punchline. I said to her, at your Catholic college, What percentage of women do you think would say a guaranteed great marriage? What do you think she said?

I would hope the percentage would be higher at a Catholic college. Maybe 30% would say— sorry, good marriage? Yeah, was your question? Yeah, probably 30.

5.

Oh God.

Now, she doesn't have proof. Of course, that's her assumption. And she's probably right. It shows you—

I think at Harvard it would be comparable.

I, I would— I'll tell you this. I would like to meet the 5% of women who would say that at Harvard. I'd be very— so would you. Maybe you could have made more friends.

I'm one of them.

You are one of them.

Well, I did make a lot of friends.

I'm curious if you'd been asked that in your freshman year, what have you?

I think I would have said marriage.

You would have?

Yes. Because as we've discussed and it's so important, Those instincts were always in me.

I know that, I believe that totally, but I'm still curious on that one.

I think that my parents have done a really— both of them have said to me, the most important decision you'll ever make in your life is who you marry. From a very young age, they told me that. So I credit my parents for setting me straight on that, because I'm very ambitious, you know.

I'm well aware.

Yeah. So true. Yeah, by the way, I'm very— what did I say? Oh my gosh, what was it? We got here today and Dennis and I of course always start chatting and I said, oh yes, I said, uh, we have a good rapport. And what did you say? What are you trying to come up with the most colossally obvious statement ever?

No, no, no. What was it? Is this the understatement competition?

Oh yes, that's right, that's right.

Yes, that's a given. So I, I believe that she's right. What is depressing, it's depressing whether it's Harvard or her Catholic college, but it's more depressing that it's at a Catholic college.

Yes, I would hope that it would be higher. Going back quickly to that New York Times piece, by the way, the New York Times, oh my gosh, I mean, we know that politically they lie and they, the New York Times, I'm gonna go on a 1-minute rant about the New York Times and then I'll be quiet. And by the way, this is not my point for bringing it up, just quickly, you know, the New York Times does this style of reporting that I have come to dislike, and that is narrative reporting. And I read, I read the—

What do you mean? They begin every, every article with a story.

Yes.

And they're like, this is, this is older than you by, by twice at least. I hate it.

Well, I think I knew where it comes from.

I go to, I go to the 4th or 5th paragraph. Yes. I don't even read the first 4 paragraphs.

I remember when I guest hosted for you, I guess I was for you the day that Governor Andrew Cuomo resigned back in 2020, I believe it was, or maybe 2021, 2021. And I put the New York Times coverage of the story and then the Wall Street Journal coverage of the story side by side. And the Wall Street Journal was just facts. The New York Times started up, Andrew Cuomo fiddles his watch. He's behind the stage. He's about to make the greatest speech or the most important speech of his career. He will resign. A drop of sweat. It's like, just give me the facts.

Well, it doesn't matter in every case. So Joe Gonzalez is a, you know, runs a 24/7 shop in Manhattan.

Yes.

And has two kids. And I'd like to know what the story is about. I'm not as interested, forgive me, in Joe, but I know why they do this. This is what I believe. This is an interesting thing that you would even raise this. And people who are listening or watching should look this up and see how virtually every news article begins with a story about somebody. Does not about the news piece. It's about— and I think the reason is the, the degradation of the American intellect. You won't be interested in in the, in the news. You will only be interested in the person in a story. I'll give you another example of the degradation. You should, you should do this. Get a copy. You can get back copies of magazines on, on the internet sent to you, the actual physical copy. Get a copy of Time or Newsweek from 1950 or even 1960. And look at them today, especially Time, but maybe Newsweek as much, you will see the following. The fonts are much smaller and there are very few pictures.

Yes, you're right. Actually, I have looked at some primary sources from that just when I was in college. Yes, you're right.

The font is now—

and they pack so much on the page.

It's now mostly pictures and larger font. The assumption is you're an idiot and you need television on paper. That's what it is. It's TV on paper.

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I, I have watched everything get degraded like that. It's— they assume if Time published an issue looking like— just looking like, not even saying the same things— looking like Time of 1950, they assume no one would read it.

And they're probably right, even though they've contributed to the fact that no one would read it. So I totally agree with you. I think your point is spot on. I would add that starting with a story makes it easier for the news, which should be objective and just stay relaying facts, it makes it easier for the news to become a narrative when you start with a story, because you can tug at people's heartstrings, you can pick a particular person that fits the certain agenda that you want to impart. So I think it's also trying to sneak in the subjectivity in what is supposed to be objective.

Oh, that's interesting.

But what was I, oh, so there's this writer, I'm sure you've heard of him, John Hersey.

Oh yeah.

Yes, and he wrote Hiroshima.

Correct.

The very famous book in 1946, about the victims in Japan of the two atomic bombs. And it's fascinating because then 40 years later in the '90s, he wrote— he did a follow-up to it where he went back and with the individuals who were still alive, recounted their lives then. By the way, this is just so—

why did you raise that?

I'll tell you, but I just— before I do, my favorite thing to do when I'm at an airport is go into a bookstore and buy books and read all the books on the plane. And so I bought like 5 books that one plane ride when I bought the John Hersey book and only read that the entire time. It's an amazing book. The reason why I raise it is because I did some background reading about John Hersey when I was finished with that book, and he apparently is the progenitor of this kind of narrative journalism. His 1946 book was sort of, sort of established it because that book, and I think he does a great job of it, does a really nice narrative of the day-to-day lives of the victims of the bomb. But apparently, again, he was kind of the progenitor of that. And a lot of subsequent journalists, such as the ones who work at the New York Times, take a Hersey-like approach to journalism, the narrative style.

Since you're into John Hersey, just know his son died and he wrote a book whose title— I have the chills as I tell it to you, it's very, very powerful— Death Be Not Proud. Is that a powerful title? On the death of his child. Not a grown child.

How did he die?

I don't remember. I believe it was an accident, but I'm not certain. It's not a long book. I'm sure you'll find it very interesting.

I'll read it. I'll read it.

Death Be Not Proud.

But back to the original point. I was doing a bit of a smear campaign just now in the New York Times, but The kind of articles that they publish, not the news ones, we've covered that they do this narrative thing that we don't like, but even the non-news, like the cultural stuff, is so vapid, and this is a primary example. It's very interesting.

You mean the naked women dinner?

Yes, yes. What's very interesting to me about that article is that it doesn't surprise me.

Oh, it's up right behind you.

Wow, that's fancy.

Yeah, very classy. Show the headline, guys. Not the text, because I don't want people to see the headline.

It does not shock me that grown women are doing this. And you know what it screams? A desiccating life. They have to be so spiritually, emotionally, intellectually suffocated that they have— and I see this, we've talked about this on this show, people my age and left wing, particularly women writ large, engage in these kind of shock value activities. And I think it's because, as I said, their soul is so dried up. Their well is so not filled with stuff to pull out that will satiate their interests.

And they don't know it.

They don't know it. And so they think, oh, I'm gonna take off my clothes and I'm gonna sit, like, they think the shock stuff is empowering.

I have to find it. Keep talking because I wanna, there was one sentence that I needed to read to you. Okay. About what it is, what its purpose is. Oh good, it came up. You know what luck that is?

Yeah, it is luck.

I mean, I have 100 things open, so— okay, here we go. I found it.

That's amazing.

A record.

I thought it was gonna be 3 minutes.

So did I. So here it is, for $88. Yeah, there it is.

Oh, that is so tawdry.

It's not even tawdry, it's pathetic. I don't think it's tawdry. I don't think there's— tawdry implies sexual elements and so on.

You don't think that's—

I mean, I think it's pathetic. But certainly that.

Anyway, go on.

So for $88 and after Ms. Max, the woman who runs this, what is her name here? She's a model.

We should have her on.

Yeah. Charlie and—

Clothes on, though. Yeah.

Charlie and Max. Yeah, anyway, it doesn't matter. Okay, so anyway, so listen to what it is. For $88, and after Ms. Max has approved the applications, guests come together to enjoy, according to the website, ready, quote, a liberating space. I don't understand. I don't understand any of this statement. A liberating space that celebrates our most pure selves through plant-based cooking, art, nudity, and self-love. What does that mean?

I don't understand it either, Dennis, but I have, I have gone to school and been around people who say stuff like this all of the time. Any, like, liberation, resistance, intervention, something based. Like, it's just that kind of diction I am so used to, and it's just a crock of BS. And again, it's this— again, it doesn't make sense to me, but it also does make sense to me. They're doing it for the shock factor because they're bored and they don't know—

they want—

they so badly want fulfillment, and they think that this shocking display and doing something that's really crossing a boundary is going to give them the kind of, I don't know, entertainment or enthusiasm.

By the way, out of curiosity, for those who claim men and women are not different, which was taught to me in the '70s.

Yeah.

Can you imagine heterosexual— we're talking about gay men for whom it might be appealing for another reason, but for the 97% of men who are straight, Can you imagine a nude dinner of men?

No.

Okay.

Absolutely not.

So it's very interesting, isn't it? But, but the claim is that they're not different. By the way, I had an interesting question on my show. Would they accept a trans woman?

Yes, they would.

So one of those at the table naked would be a male body.

Yeah. I think they would. I really do.

I think I wouldn't be surprised if some guys would say they're women and apply.

So what I'm about to say shows my level of comfort, not just with you, but with our viewers. When we say that we talk about everything on Dennis and Julie, boy, is it ever true. This is about to prove it. You said something to me, may have been, I know you've said it on the air, maybe off the air, but it was really, it made a great impression on me. You said women have a proclivity towards being bisexual and men have a proclivity towards being polygamists. That is true. And I think this women naked dinner party proves that.

Well, they have massive comfort in hugging each other naked.

Women?

These women.

Well, these women.

They're heterosexual.

Right.

Presumably, and heterosexual men do not, are not comfortable hugging naked men, right? So that, that's just an illustration of what I'm saying, but there are many others. Yeah, so why did you raise that, that comment that I had made?

Because, because I think there's an element of this of a proclivity towards bisexuality.

Yes. Uh-huh.

Towards sort of being romantic with a, with a woman, right? Because women want intimacy.

That's right.

And they can't always get it with men.

That's right.

So they turn to other women.

That's right. And, and in the age of tension between the sexes, you know, the, the patriarchy is your enemy, right?

Yes.

Masculinity is toxic. The message is You might be better off finding it with a woman.

Oh yeah.

Oh, what percentage of the girls at Harvard do you think will have experimented with same-sex sex by the time they graduate?

I, a significant portion.

That's what I think.

Though, I mean, again, significant might be, by the way, 1 out of 3. Yeah, no, I think it's significant. Oh, I think it's, it's at least a third. At least a third. However, what I, again, Dennis and Julie, I'm going there. I think a lot women would experiment. I don't know if they'd go all the way.

Oh, oh, oh, okay, that's fair. Yeah, but you know what percentage of men will experiment?

Straight men?

3. Yeah, right, the, the 3 who are already bisexual.

Or there were more in college than I thought. There were more bisexual men, and women were comfortable dating bisexual men. I'm sorry, I wouldn't be comfortable dating a bisexual man.

Right, for good reason. Sorry, I mean Listen, women, women are, except if they're not thrilled with the fact that a man will be attracted to 1,000 other women, just the way we're built. Not act upon it, hopefully, if he's certainly, if he's married or committed to a woman, but the thought that he's fantasizing men is would be much harder for a woman to, to live with, I think.

Shows you the power of social contagion though, because I have seen who I thought were pretty masculine men experiment with other men.

Really?

Not— it's not common, not nearly as common as women experimenting with women, but still.

You had a subject that, uh, I, I did not get to hear, but it's very apparently, uh, deep in you right now, so go ahead.

It is. So I raised this on my show, Timeless. By the way, you said a few minutes ago Timeless, and I was very impressed that you got the name. Not because you don't pay attention and you don't care, but Dennis is a bit cursed when it comes to names. Thank God that's the only thing, at least from my judgment, that you're cursed with. I raised this moral issue of this prevailing notion in society that life is a game. The first time that it was said overtly to me, I was in college. I remember I was in a common room with a group of friends, and there was a guy in the common room who I knew from afar. I didn't know him particularly well, but he is a—

Hunk.

I can't curse. He is a—

A hunk.

Bad person. A hunk?

Oh, oh, oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were going to come out with he's a hunk.

No.

Oh, he's a bad person.

No, he's a dweeb, actually.

Oh, he's a bad person.

Well, he got a lot of girls, but I think he's a dweeb because he's morally awful. Anyway, we were in this common room and he was just bragging openly about cheating on his exams. And specifically, he was bragging about the way that he and his friends positioned themselves in the examination room so that they could see each other's paper. Like, they did like a kind of diagonal formation so that you could look over to the side. He was just openly bragging about it. I mean, it's one thing to do it. But then to go brag about it, my God. So it was very interesting for me to see him bragging about it, and what was also interesting was to see a lot of the people in the room didn't challenge him, and some were kind of looking at him admiringly, like how did you pull that off? And so I cut in, and I said why are you bragging about this? Why are you—

You did?

Yes, of course, it disgusted me. Why are you, that's gross.

No, I know it disgusted you, You acted upon your discussion.

I mean, I have to—

How long ago was that? What year were you in?

I was a sophomore before I was sent home from due to COVID.

No, due to lockdowns.

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The attitude that life is a game.

Yes, this attitude has infected our society more generally. The examples I gave on my show— look at the Kardashians. We idolize people who are famous for just being famous. We don't care anymore about why people are famous. We just admire that they finessed and BS'd their way to the top. I actually think a lot of people admire the Kardashians more precisely because they don't have any talent and they were just so good at BSing that they were able to fool everyone and make all this money and get all this fame. Even if you look, certainly among people my age, people buy likes and followers on Instagram and it's very obvious when people buy likes and followers because they have thousands of followers and then there are only like 3 comments on their their posts. So it doesn't match if you have 1,000 followers, why are only 3 people engaging with your post? And it's also interesting because people are not only doing it, but they know that other people know that they're doing it. They know that it's obvious to the rest of the world that they buy followers, but they still do it because they're showing that they're playing the game.

So the issue is winning.

Yes.

Doesn't matter at what—

doesn't matter.

And doesn't matter how you got there.

Nope. Doesn't matter.

That's what you're saying.

And you brought this up to me on the phone a few weeks ago when I was telling you that I was going to do a segment on this. You said, look at the way that the media reports on politics. They talk about gerrymandering, they talk about the right—

Who's winning?

Who's winning?

That's what—

Not issues.

Right. Who's winning?

And so it made me think, I mean, I have a few, before I tell mine, I'd be curious to hear your hypotheses as to why you think this sentiment has infected our society. I have a few reasons. I think one of the biggest, though, is that people don't articulate why it's important to behave well. There are all these forces that are encouraging us not to behave well, but no one is speaking about behaving justly and morally. If you do that, you're seen as weak and soft. and like a goody two-shoes.

And probably religious.

Oh, definitely religious.

They call it the ultimate curse.

And so I just, I really see it as a problem because people don't, they, it's just, I'll give you one final example and then I'll kick it over to you for your thoughts. But when I first was on your show that summer when I did, you know, every week, you were so unbelievably nice to have me on your show once a week and then I guest hosted for you. I got back to college, for my senior year. And you know the question that I was asked the most? Really fascinating. People would say, including that blankety-blank who was bragging about cheating, he came up to me and asked me this question. People would say, do you believe what you say? Oh, and I remember being so—

you, you— okay, go on, because you've now explained something to me. Go on.

I, and I, I'm like, of course I believe. Like, to me it was so— why would I do something that was both so great and I got a lot from, but that came with an enormous cost, that is losing friends, kind of being a social pariah, losing future job opportunities. To me it was just like, and also just more like, of course I would only talk about what I believe in. And people, many different people asked me if I really thought it or if I was just doing it to get on a show and to be on national radio. So that's the life is a game mentality.

Oh, that's really helpful to me. I would say 80% of the hate mail that I receive— and I'm not deluded with it, you saw my mail for weeks— but 80% of the hate mail that I receive states, doesn't even ask, doesn't imply, states, we all know that your conservative views are a ticket to making a lot of money.

Yes, people.

So I remember when I would read that, I'd go, I have no response because it's so absurd. It's like I can't even think of an analogy. It's like, oh, the only reason you had two children is that you wanted to be able to talk about children and make a living from it. I mean, it would be in that category. It's actually not a bad analogy, right? It's so absurd. Is that why I had children? Is that why I say what I say? I mean, every day I lie about what I think for a living. First of all, it's hard to do that. I mean, that takes super hard to be consistent.

Yes, it's true.

By the way, people don't know, nor have I ever even talked about it, but Dennis and Julie bring stuff out of me that I even Mr. Speak-About-His-Life Prager doesn't, doesn't always mention because it doesn't come up. It's not because I'm hiding it, but I, I actually lost a very significant amount of money by being conservative. My mode of income until about the age of, of 40 which is middle-aged already, early middle age, was overwhelmingly speaking in the Jewish community in America. I was the third most booked speaker because of my books on Judaism, because I had been Soviet Union and helped Soviet Jews. And so why are you smiling?

Because it's so great. You deserve it. That's so— that's so— I mean, that's incredible.

Oh, okay. Well, but that's not the punchline. That's the preface. When I became a well-known conservative, it all dried up. My entire income outside of, of a very minimal radio income, because I was on only local radio and, and for, for years, and, and not even every night. Every night, that didn't start till I was 42 or 44, whatever it was. So there was no— I lost money saying what I believed. But it— but now I realize there are so many Americans who believe, oh, well, people do whatever they have to do to make a living.

Yep.

And by the way, you're your bastard guy at Harvard.

You said it, not me.

Correct.

Love it. And by the way, that view that people have is not entirely inaccurate. There are people who—

That's right.

Who do and say— No, no, no, right. No, and you know, I'm aware that obviously you and I criticize the left a lot, and I'm not trying to say that this exclusively lives on the left, but a lot of people who espouse left-wing views, particularly celebrities, don't really, I think, believe in what they're saying. I think they're just doing it to get attention and curry favor among their fans.

End up believing it. I believe they've talked themselves into it.

Perhaps.

I mean, if you'd have asked them 10 years ago, uh, do you believe a man could become a woman? So what are you, what are you, nuts? But now they believe it because it— they, they would have no income if they didn't believe it.

Well, this is— we've talked about this before. This may be one of the few things that we do disagree on. I have a bit more of a cynical view where some of them I think do talk themselves into it, but I think a lot of them are just really— yes, because You have to be so effing stupid and shallow to actually, I mean, are you telling me that even the dumb Hollywood people have absolutely no sense of awareness that they're advocating for defund the police while they live behind a gate? Like, do you think it doesn't occur to them at all that that's a hypocritical, harmful view to have? I think in some ways they talk themselves into it, but in a lot of ways they'll just do whatever.

Okay, this is an unanswerable question. Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, mandated some of the harshest mandates in the country in the state of California of mask wearing and no open restaurants.

Yeah.

Killing massive numbers of small businesses, family-owned businesses. And then during that time, he went without a mask into a restaurant. That was the famous French Laundry restaurant. Okay. So this, I'm gonna ask you, I don't have an answer. So here's the question: since he went into a restaurant, sat next with no— what was it, social distancing? That was the term. No social distancing and no mask. So he violated every one of his mandates. I mean, if you, if you violated that, you were you were shut down and you were fined, maybe even imprisoned. So did he do it because he's a hypocrite? Let's see all the possible things. This is a really interesting question, and I have not come to a resolution yet. He's just a hypocrite, whatever that means, and it's a tough one. 2, he didn't— never believed masks and closing restaurants. He just did it. 3, he did believe in it, but, uh, well, no, I think— walk me through this. Yes. What are the possible reasons he did what he imprisoned people for doing?

Well, 3— you just started 3, but then you didn't finish 3. I actually think 3, what you were going to say, is the most accurate. Maybe he started off thinking that that was the right way to go, you know, in March of 2020 when we were all unsure about how bad this virus was. And then over time, he saw that it was draconian and it was, it was too harsh. And instead, he— I think he probably realized that it was. And but he didn't want to go against the Democratic Party and be a brave governor and repeal the lockdowns. So instead, he just—

Okay. So your take is he didn't believe in his mandate.

He sort of— he maybe believed in it a little bit at the beginning and then didn't believe it. And here's my—

that's a good one.

Here's my proof. I've said this on the show before and some commenter made fun of me, but I don't care. I think it's a good point. Haha, comment, whoever that guy was. I am terrified of spiders. We've seen it on this show. Remember there was a spider and I like freaked out like a little child? I am actually truly afraid of spiders. I don't go to a spider conservatory, if that's even a thing. I don't hold spiders. I don't look at spiders because I'm genuinely afraid because I believe in what In my fear, I am really afraid, if these people really thought that the virus was so bad that it warranted lockdowns, similarly if they thought, as they say, that climate change is truly an existential threat to the United States.

No, to the world.

To the world, sorry, I don't know why I said the United, you're right, to the world, they wouldn't, with the first example, be going out and sitting next to people and dining, and they wouldn't fly on private planes because they would, think about it, or buy houses on shores. Yes. I mean, it literally just— it shows that they don't believe it, because if you really are fearful, your fear or your belief is going to—

Prager analogy is excellent.

Yes. Thank you. Apparently someone doesn't think so.

Why didn't they think so? What was their argument?

Shady. I don't know. They were like, did Julie really just compare spiders to climate change? Yeah, I did.

God, that's— I, you know what, I believe you that that's what the— that the, the only way to think that unclearly, and I mean this literally, is that you went to college. I don't believe most people who only went to high school would ask such a stupid question. Are you comparing spiders to climate change. Isn't it obvious what you're comparing? Sincere fear to insincere fear? That is— that's your comparison.

Oh, I'll tell you one, and then this is typical Dennis and Julie going off on an exit ramp. So I on my Instagram recently posted a video about this egregious anti-homosexuality act in Uganda. Are you aware of this?

Yes.

Death penalty in some cases, prison sentences, hefty fines. I mean, it's really bad. And I posted this video and I said, you know, it's so interesting how all of the left-wing activists in the mainstream media that talk about homophobia and talk about persecution of the Black population, they are radio silent when it comes to this Uganda thing. Here we have a Black population that is literally being thrown in prison and killed for being gay. It's like their two buzzwords: Black, gay. And they're silent on it, right? By Blacks. And so I said it shows that in principle, a lot of these people— not all of them, but a lot— don't actually care, because if they really cared about homophobia and they really cared about, you know, persecution of Blacks, they would be up in arms about this Uganda thing. And so, so interesting, the people that— because I, like you, read the comments now. I didn't used to, but now I do. Some of their comments were so stupid because they said, well, we shouldn't militarily intervene in Uganda, you know, like We've, we've, we've gone to Afghanistan and Iraq and those haven't worked out well. We can't, you know, launch an invasion of Uganda. I'm like, where in my video did I say that we should militarily intervene in Uganda? That's not the point. The point is that the lefty activists are— don't actually believe in what they're saying. So it just shows you again, I bet a lot of them went to college. I want to tell you about a new film that both Dennis and Sue Prager recommend. Nefarious is a spiritual thriller from the filmmakers behind God's Not Dead and Unplanned. It is excellent, well-acted, suspenseful, and scary in all the right places. It's like C.S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters, but much more than that. It's a powerful reminder about the battle between good and evil, ultimately between God and Satan, is being fought not just around us but within us. What better way to bring God into the marketplace than through movies? In a world that calls good evil and evil good, Nefarious is a great film, especially if you enjoy a good roller coaster ride. Nefarious is the kind of smart, thoughtful filmmaking we want to support and promote. The film opens in theaters nationwide starting April 14th. Take a moment to buy your tickets today at whoisnefarious.com.

Reading the comments is as important as reading any of the articles. You know, I did a whole column on comments to an article in the New York Times, and I always remind people you can only comment on a New York Times article if you're a New York Times subscriber. It's not open to the public. You have to be a subscriber. So that's, that's why I read comments in the New York Times. It tells me what New York Times readers think, or how poorly they think. And the article was about parents deciding not to have children because of climate change. A, their children will contribute to climate change. B, the children may be asphyxiated by the heat. And comment after comment went like this: my daughter, or my son, or my son and daughter-in-law, whatever, decided not to have children because of climate change. And my whole life what I really wanted was grandchildren, but I support their decision.

Yep.

They have foregone their deepest yearning for grandchildren in the name of climate change.

Yep. That's what the left does. It even subverts people's most powerful impulses and proclivities.

Well, the biggest example is women.

Yep.

Women naturally yearn for a man and for children, right? That is the— that is the biggest built-in yearnings that they have. And the left has been able to undo it. So in the— it shows, and it's tough for me to say because I've, I've been agnostic on this all of my life. It may well be that society, in other words environment, is more powerful than nature. And women are my living example.

Probably. It's very eerie. It's true. Well, you know, it's good and it's bad. I mean, it shows that a very good society can Right, you know, but it's unfortunately it can correct people's—

well, yeah, it works in both directions. That's why I said I was agnostic, among other reasons. But because people really think, oh, you, you know, built-in stuff and built-in stuff, and we do have built-in stuff, right? But it is, it is not difficult for society to subvert your, your most profound, the most profound aspects of your nature.

Right. So back to this life is a game conversation, specifically when I told you that people were asking me whether or not I believed in what I was saying. It's so sad because what that shows is that a lot of the people who are asking me the question have never seen someone who's doing what they're doing because they believe, really believe in it. Or, or in other words, they're coming from a pure place and not a motivated by winning the game.

So here, so, so help me on this. Uh, most people who have followed me for years have respect for me, otherwise they wouldn't follow me for years, right? So it is very common for people meeting me at a meet and greet before a speech to ask, just curious, Dennis, Do you— do you— does product X really work? And so I'm thinking, tell me if I'm wrong, and I'm totally okay with being wrong, but my immediate thought is they so respect me, they know how committed I am to truth Are they asking, would you say something you don't believe for money?

Yep.

Is that what they're asking?

Yes. Or are you being forced to do that? You know, I mean, I think the subtext really is that question. Are you being forced to do something for money? Or are you— sorry, are you only saying something to get money?

I think the assumption is already there that you do that, right? So they didn't hear Sean, right? The listeners—

well, actually, maybe because of the speakers on, but we can repeat it. Sean said, this is such a great broadcast and it should be called Julie and Dennis.

That's correct. That's what he said, which is remarkable because he said it in Bulgarian, right? And you were able to translate that. That is very impressive. What did he actually say now that we have— these people that ask the question assume—

yeah, they already assumed that you're—

wow, so it's worse than even I'm thinking. They assume I'm saying it for money and they just now want to know, does the product really work now that I'm off camera, as it were? I don't have as dark a view as Sean. I think they're, they're honestly just asking, are you saying it because you're a paid advertiser, or do you really, or does it really work?

Well, you—

but, but forgive me, I really want to know from you, what do you think they're asking when they say that to me? I don't, because I don't want to make this into a bigger thing than it is. But are they asking, in light of your comments about life is a game, are they— are they— let me, let me give another interpretation.

Okay.

I don't think, Dennis, that you would, you would say things for money. However, I'd like you to just confirm for me that the product really works. That, that's a I think that may be even truer in my case. They're not gonna come to a meet-and-greet where they pay extra money to— when I give a lecture, it's almost always a VIP reception so that the hosting group gets more money, right? And then I take pictures with people and so on. I don't think they would pay extra money. They wouldn't come to the lecture, but be extra money to meet with me and get a picture. If they didn't respect me. So I don't think they're really asking, are you lying for money?

Right. But there's a suspicion that you may not fully endorse them, that you may just be doing it for—

yeah, confirm for me. By the way, so let me just say for the record, it is hard for me to imagine that there was any sum of money that could get me to lie. It would be like saying Dennis will give you $5 million to kill yourself, right? Because I would be— I would be killing myself too if I lied.

Yep.

That's how I look at it. It would end Dennis as Dennis.

It's true. It's really— it's really unfortunate what's happened because I can tell you even really good people who I know who are my age also sort of succumb to this life is a game game mentality. Because it was very interesting what that original blankety-blank said to me when I asked him why he was bragging about cheating. He said, life is a game, you either win or you lose. And he said everyone else is playing a dirty game.

Well, that—

you have to— you gotta— you gotta play ball.

This is a— you'll love this, you will love this. That's what he thinks, because cheats think everyone cheats, right?

Yes, it's so true.

I learned this many years ago when a member of the board of directors of a, of a, an institution I was working for said to me, Dennis, you know, I'm in business, I'm in this business, and everybody cheats. And I'm not a businessman, so I don't— I didn't have firsthand experience. But I remember thinking, everyone cheats? That was a little hard for me to really wrap my head around. Maybe a lot of people do, but everyone?

A lot of people do.

And that's when I really— wait, but the point was, I know, yep, I got it. Because he cheats, he thinks everyone cheats. So I learned a very big lesson from this. Cheats don't have friends.

Yes, that's true. And they also— one of the things I said on my show is that it's just, it's impossible to be a truly authentic, genuine person when you are cheating. I think that the definition of sanity is being all of yourself all of the time to everyone. It is impossible to be, to be all of yourself all of the time to everyone when you are finessing and cheating and BSing. And what's so sad is that those individuals These individuals also don't know the gift of admiration, not just admiration of others, but admiration of oneself. They'll never know the gratification of truly taking pride and joy in one's accomplishments and knowing that you did something by your own merit. The whole thing is really sad. I'll say though, I think you'll find this to be interesting. Clarence Thomas actually said this to me, opened me up to this idea. He grew up on a farm, and he said to me, he was explaining why the importance of everyday jobs and honest work. I'll never forget this. And he said, you know, when I came home after my day's work and my dad asked me if I had closed the chicken coop, I had better tell the truth because if I didn't close it, the next day they would be dead or gone. You know, like a dog would come in and eat them or they would have escaped. In other words, In other words, there were immediate consequences for lying. Or he said, when I was supposed to plant crops, I had to actually do it because 3 weeks later we would see if the crops grew. In other words, you can't BS your way out of blue-collar jobs or everyday jobs the same way you can BS your way out of— That's fascinating. Isn't it fascinating? And I thought about this, like, God, God, that is so true. Even if you look at bus drivers, Of course, there's always room in life for cheating. They could pocket some of the change, but you cannot BS your way out of driving someone from point A to point B. A housekeeper can steal possessions of the people who she works for, but you can't BS your way out of making a bed. The bed is either made or not made. That's why it is so important for people to have everyday jobs in addition to just learning about the world.

This is also why the athletes at colleges are usually the most conservative. Conservative kids.

Yes. Because you can't—

you can't be S.U.A. in a sport.

I think that's why people like athletics so much.

Oh, the only remaining— there is— there's no DEI.

Yes.

Well, at a baseball team, they may have a DEI in the, in the general manager's arena.

Right.

On all the backup stuff, coaches, managers, everything but not players.

But it's just—

no, I just want to make that clear. There's no diversity, equity, inclusion among players.

At least not for now.

You either I don't see it happening because nobody would show up at the game if mediocres are playing. By the way, they're doing that with airplane pilots, and I'm afraid— I am truly afraid for aviation in this country. United Airlines has announced that half of its places are going to be women and people of color for pilots, not, not, not for, for flight attendants.

Yeah.

But sports is the only place. But I think it also exists in the military to a certain extent. Okay. Well, it did exist in the military. It is— the military is going woke now, which is why so few people are enlisting. People wanted—

yeah, they want to achieve gender parity in the US military.

There's tremendous DEI now going on in the military.

But I just— when he said that to me, I mean, he's just so wise and smart, and this is just reason number 87,000, but it just— it brought me back to that guy who was bragging about cheating at Harvard. I'm like, do you realize what a privileged ass you are? Do you realize when you are bragging about cheating on a test or manipulating a spreadsheet, you are just oozing privilege? In white— or excuse me, in blue-collar jobs, honesty is not just a virtue, it is a requirement. In white-collar jobs, it is much easier. I'm not trying to just— we have white-collar, you know, I'm not trying to disparage that kind of work, but it's much easier to finesse your way out of it. So I think as society, as America has gotten more affluent, and as people— a lot, I mean, of course, we still have a large contingent of the population that do blue-collar jobs, and we will always need that. But as people have climbed the social ladder, I think a lot of this cheating has become more common. Also, we live in this age where you're supposed to, where impulses are condoned instead of controlled. If you want to be fat, be fat. Do whatever you want. If you want to be a furry, if you want to be a burrito, if you want to identify as a squirrel, identify as a squirrel. Everything is just, you can do whatever you want. So if you want to cheat, cheat. There are no standards, there are no guardrails that are keeping you from engaging in certain behavior. Everything goes, so why wouldn't cheating go?

You got it. I remember I had a relative, he passed away at a young age. He was married actually to, to a cousin, and I, I would visit them periodically because I had an affection for this cousin. And I'll never forget one time he told me with incredible pride how much he could get into the U.S. from coming abroad and not pay any customs. Now, what bothered me was not that he avoided customs.

How do you avoid customs?

Oh, by not making a declaration, by declaring on the sheet. I don't even think now they have that anymore. But maybe they do, maybe they don't. I was honest, not because I believe the government deserves more taxes from me, but I just— I rather sleep well. That's almost selfish, but doesn't matter. What mattered was not that he, that he didn't declare everything. A lot of good people didn't declare everything when they came back and they bought a watch in Switzerland. Okay, fine. It's that he bragged about it. This was an accomplishment to cheat. And it was doubly distressing because he was religious.

Well, that's what it is. That's what I was saying, where the guy was bragging about cheating. And also what's fascinating is the Instagram followers and likes. The people who are buying the followers know that other people know that they are buying the followers, and they still do it because it It's seen as a virtue. People go on that Instagram page and they're like, oh, that person's playing the game well. They're finessing, they're BSing, they're climbing, they're buying their— it's seen as a virtue. I'll give you another example, though this isn't cheating, but you'll like this because it goes along with our favorite word, dignity. Actually, that's not one of your 3 that you said should earn.

No, because they're verbs.

Fair enough, fair enough. So—

What was that? That was like, should, and earn. Earn, yeah.

There. So I don't have a LinkedIn. I think maybe Zach or someone with my show has a LinkedIn, but I personally don't. I'm off of a lot of social media except the ones I have to maintain professionally because I hate it. And here's the reason why. When I did have a LinkedIn a few years ago, I would see so many people posting about their accomplishments like every other day they would post because on LinkedIn you're supposed to put where you went to school, where you, where you work, but then you can do these like separate posts. And so many of my peers would be like, so honored and grateful to have just finished my internship at da da da da da. So excited to announce that I've been hired as a full-time analyst at graduation. Like, people would post these weird, like, braggadocious things. Someone in my grade had a startup that she sold and then she posted a thing like, so excited to announce that I've sold my start— like, and it's just, we live in this culture where there's no dignity, there's no modesty, there's no humility. It's just, again, you're playing the game. Even though those technically, like, aren't cheating, it's just slimy. It's just, you'll pimp yourself out, you'll sacrifice your dignity and your modesty and post about your accomplishments, even though it's— I think it's sort not in accordance with proper character to do that, frankly, because everyone's doing it and you just pimp your way out.

I would love a girl from, from some prestigious college to write in LinkedIn, if that's where you saw these things. What was the wording you used? So delighted to announce?

Yes, so, so grateful.

So grateful to announce that I met a great guy 'Yeah, I look forward to making a family, going to church with my kids each week.' I would love to know what reactions— I, it would be a great test.

Oh, by the way, you just inspired me. When I get married, I'm going to do that.

Oh, totally.

I'm going to do like a long Instagram post, say, mimicking the people.

It is one of the projects of my life to get you married, just for the record.

Oh, trust me, I know. The final thing I'll say about this life is a game thing, and I told it to you the other day and you said that you liked it. So I had a friend in college who was from Nigeria. He took the SAT 5 times. I remember we were sitting at dinner and it was one of the moments, one of the aha moments of my American privilege. He said, "I had to take the SAT 5 times." And I said, "Why?" Because I was in class with this guy who was so smart, amazing test taker, and I said, I said, wow. And he said, oh, I didn't have to take it 5 times because I wanted to improve my score. I had a near perfect score every time. I took it 5 times because my score would get stolen. The people who were running the exam would sell—

In Nigeria.

In Nigeria.

Let's make that clear, yeah.

Would sell my score to someone else. And you told me about the police barricade in what country?

Yeah, Benin, yeah.

Yes, where you would have to bribe the police to get—

Just to move your car.

It just shows how privileged we are that there are large swaths of individuals in America like that blankety-blank who I went to college with who think that there is something noble and something worth bragging about about corruption. It shows that we have no idea about the dangers of corruption in order to celebrate it as a virtue as we do now. It shows that we have lived in a society that has comparatively been remarkably free from corruption in order to think that BSing and lying and cheating and stealing is something that should be proud of. It's the same thing when people talk all the time about, oh my God, we live in patriarchal society and women are so oppressed. They have no bleeping idea. When they're pointing to words like freshman because they have man in it, it shows how good, how we live in a society—

How unoppressed.

How unoppressed women are. I mean, it's just like, it's really, it's unbelievable. But we're screwed. I'm sorry. I know that sounds draconian, but there are a lot of people who think this.

It's a dark age, which is a terrible way to—

yes, on that note, yes, nevertheless, you can—

we are not down.

No, we're not. We're aware, and that's a virtue, to not be down in the face of trouble.

Tell everybody how they can reach you.

No, you can tell everyone how they can.

Yes, go to julie@julie-hartman.com.

And follow us at—

and follow us at hashtag Dennis Julie.

You got close, actually. Keep going. Dennis Julie.

Dennis Julie Cast Pod.

Well done.

Well, I knew it was pod or cast.

That was cast. Cast like a cast on your arm, or a cast of a show. Oh yes, and please do— see, the dignity issue. I feel sort of sheepish saying this, but please do consider subscribing to this channel.

To your credit.

Well, we talked about that last time. I'm the human recording machine, so I remember.

I love that you're a human recording machine, but it's still to your credit.

Well, I'm going to say please consider subscribing. I'm not going to demand that people subscribe, folks. It's undignified.

You should subscribe because Good things need to get out there, period. How's that?

It's great. So, excellente.

We'll see you all next week.

Shalom.