Confrontation Averse
Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman discuss how the decline of religion has eroded service and meaning in humanities departments, where professors now feel insignificant. They compare their own academic choices: Dennis wrote a popular book on Judaism instead of a scholarly thesis on communism, and Julie struggles with her thesis decision.
Chapters
Hey everybody, welcome to the Dennis and Julie podcast. I'm Dennis. Dennis Prager, and that's Julie as in Hartman. Hi, Jules.
Shalom.
Cracks me up.
That's what I've started saying because everyone said it in Israel, and I thought it was such a crack-up that now whenever I answer the phone when you call, I go, shalom.
Just me?
Yeah, almost exclusively you.
No other Hebrews?
No. Hmm. No.
Interesting.
You're unique.
So I'm going to open up with a weird notion, but I think about everything pretty much. So I want you folks watching and listening to note that I have finally confirmed that Julie Hartman is a character. Now I have, but I— but that's not alone Enough. You know my theory on characters?
No.
Oh, you will love this then. So I'm a character.
Oh, we know.
Yes, that's probably true. And my father was a character. My son is and my grandson is. So it's like 4 generations of characters. And I was— I thought about this a lot. I have 2 theories. One is you cannot become one.
You can become—
you can become a pianist, you can become a singer, you could become a gardener, you could become a French speaker, you can become another religion, but you cannot become a character. You're either born it or, or not. And by the way, if you are born it, you can't stop it. It's a— so that's an interesting theory unto itself. I have another one for you. I've really thought about this until a few years ago, and I don't know what changed me, but until a few years ago, I was convinced that the great majority of characters were men, and now I think it's 50/50.
It probably is. That would seem like a good division. You know, I agree with you partially. I originally fully agreed with you that you're either born with it or you're not. I do I do think though that it can be somewhat cultivated or it can be pulled out of you. I think a lot of the reason, for instance, why I am a character is because of my mother, who is a total character. I mentioned on this podcast a few weeks ago that to entertain me growing up on airplanes or just even at hotels anywhere when we were traveling, my mom would pretend to be someone else. She would truly become a character. She would either become British or Southern or something and she would embody this persona, and I found it to be endlessly riveting. Growing up, my mom had this saying. She would say, let's go find adventure. And we would just walk outside of the house, and she would just— we would start talking to a stranger, or she would make up a story, and it was—
All right, so your theory is that it was environmental?
I think, I think that it was mostly that I was born with it. But I do think my mom encouraged it and pulled it out in me.
So you may be right. I, I, and I have no axe to grind, it doesn't matter to me which is true, but I— so we all use our own lives as, as sort of proof text, but of course our own lives are just one life. Having said that, my brother, raised by the same parents, same home, same everything, and is not at all a character.
That is, you know, that's the same with my sister.
Okay, so then maybe, so maybe your mother, maybe your mother had it genetically and you have it genetically.
Right.
By the way, I have another theory, believe it or not, I have a third theory on characters.
I do believe it. You're full of theories on everything.
On everything, that's right. So, by the way, there's a reason for that. I have a theory on why I care about theories.
Of course you do.
Yes. So I think that it's rare that a character marries a character.
Oh, totally. My dad is not a character.
Right.
He does have a sense of humor, but he's more quiet and subdued. No, no, that's different.
I may well appreciate, but he is not a character. So Sue, my dear wife whom you know well, and she's not at all a character.
No, she's not.
Right. So I don't see— I think two Moodys marry, it can't work. In fact, I've never even seen two Moodys marry. As I always say, Moody or the Moody are not stupid. They never marry one of their own. They always marry a non-Moody. But in character, the closest couple I know are Phelim and Anne.
Yes, they're both—
they're pretty much— she's total character.
Oh, she is a—
she's a hoot.
She needs to be mic'd up.
Well, she is. She, she goes— she does, she does comedy routines, right?
Right.
She's a riot.
She does comedy routines. I thought that she just did the true crime podcast. You guys have to— what do you know the name of the podcast?
We got to find it. We got to find people aware of it.
You're right, we will find it.
So But he is also a character. So that's the only couple I know where you have that.
See, he doesn't really strike me, by the way, we're talking about this couple that Dennis introduced me to that go to the Shabbat dinners that Dennis also introduced me to.
Right, so Phelim and Anne.
They're Irish.
Yeah, then they have a great, they're the ones who made, I got introduced to them through their great documentary on fracking.
Yes.
What was it called again? Frack Nation?
The podcast is called Serial Killer: A True Crime Podcast. That's right, thank you, sir.
Serial Killer: A True Crime Podcast.
I listened, and they also did this phenomenal episode that I listened to recently about an abortion doctor in, where was he?
Oh yeah, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, Gosnell in Philadelphia.
Yeah. Oh, that's right. In Philadelphia.
Oh, that's a movie.
Oh, is it?
Oh yeah. That's a very powerful—
They're doing one on Hunter Biden now.
I know. Yeah. No, they're terrific. They really are terrific.
You know, he doesn't strike me as a character though.
So—
He's very subdued at those dinners.
Well, I know you're right. I did think when I'm with him alone, I think of him more as a character, but she's character on steroids. And anyway, I just— it's a fascinating little subject. I just thought I'd open up on a lighter note about life. And now I'm going to tell you my theory on why I have theories. Ready?
Okay.
I— this is super serious, actually. Already in high school, I was really formed in many ways in high school. I have no explanation for it. I don't even take credit for it, but I was. And in high school, I decided I, I want to leave this world. I actually thought about dying, not in a macabre, dark way. I knew I was gonna die. Most people deny it, or they're in denial, or they don't even think about it when they're young. I knew I would, and I wanted to have certain things done prior to that happening. One of them was I really, to the best ability of a human, wanted to understand life. And that's the reason I have theories on everything, because I want to understand everything.
I have always been animated— excuse me— by that too, wanting to understand life and wanting to understand people.
For the record, well, that's— but that's what I meant by life. I didn't— of course, I didn't mean botanical life, but I, I, I, I want just people to know, because we're very open to each other and on, on this podcast. I assume that's true because whatever I felt, I think you feel.
We are remarkably similar.
Yes.
And you know what, my mom, as I was leaving the house this morning, she told me, she gave me a suggestion. I hope, Mom, you don't mind that I'm saying this on the podcast, but well, too late now. She said, you know, I think it would be interesting if you did an episode with Dennis where you disagreed with him. And I said to her, I would love that, but I really think that there's few things that we disagree on. I really, I want to find something.
And when there have been, we have talked about it.
Right, yes, we have.
Absolutely.
Yes, I remember that there was a podcast, I think it was in the earlier ones, where we talked about Trump and private versus public remarks.
Right, and I think on abortion you challenged me.
Right, right, although I think I'm becoming a little bit more pro-life now.
Yeah. So, but my point is, well, when you said that 2 and 2 is 4 is racist. Oh yeah, that, that, yeah, I did.
Got a big disagreement on that one. Yeah, yeah, we look, I, I just want to say it to the listeners because I've also gotten many emails from people. I would love to have a podcast where I disagree with you, and I'm not just agreeing with you for the sake of it, but we really, I think what makes this our relationship so unique is that we are to the core so remarkably similar.
Yes, and what's so bad about that?
True. I would— I don't want to just come up with a contrived thing to disagree with you on.
That's right. I totally— so you, you wanted to share some emails?
Yes.
Or did you have something before that?
I did, but before that I wanted to say one more note about this conversation we're having about characters. I have been listening to our earlier podcasts and it's so interesting. I think I sound kind of stiff. And cerebral in the earlier ones. And I've gotten some emails from people—
Oh, the fact that you're a character didn't come out. No. But let me just— so let me say this. That's, that's completely understandable.
Yes.
By the way, it's hard for the character part to come out on a broadcast.
It is.
I mean, people know. I mean, I've been on so many years, so I feel so free. But even so, I'm most of the time doing serious stuff. I mean, it's just a fact.
—It is difficult to have it come out, but it's funny because—
By the way, I didn't know it about you when I first met you. Right. Off the air.
Well, I have these two sides to myself. I was thinking about this yesterday because right now I'm reading— I told you this on the phone, but I'm going to tell the listeners— I'm reading this fabulous historical book by Paul Johnson, the British historian, called A History of the American People. It's 1,000 pages. I'm about 150 pages into it, and I am just Loving it. It's divided into 10 parts, and what I do is I read a part and then I write about an 8 to 9 page summary on it. So yesterday I woke up, I read the book all day, I put it away, then at night I was on the phone with my friends being a total character, and then I went to bed by watching Real Housewives. And I thought to myself, how crazy is this? Who am I as a person that I spend half of my day, you know, studying the Puritans and diving deep into that, and I think that's super fascinating, and then later in the day I'm joking around and watching a trashy TV show. But I really do think I have those two parts of myself. I have the very, very cerebral part. I love studying and reading, and then I have the goofy part. And the reason I think why I haven't really let it show on the broadcast, A, as you just said, it's hard, but B, I'm so grateful for this opportunity. Obviously. And I remember having a conversation with myself where I thought, I'm going to kind of suppress the character side of me a little bit because I really don't want Dennis or any of the execs at Salem or just anyone who I work with to think that I'm not taking this seriously. Interesting. So that's why I've let it go by the wayside.
Just, just be natural and it'll come out.
But, and I was natural being cerebral.
By the way, I just I want to tell everybody one of the rare pieces of advice I give you, because you don't need much advice. But I don't even know if it was advice. It was just a statement about my own evolution as a speaker and then as a broadcaster. You actually have to practice being natural. Hmm. Do you remember?
I didn't expect you to say that.
Wait, but did I say that?
I don't think you have.
Okay. I thought I did. So let me explain it then. Because I know it sounds counterintuitive, right?
Because you just are naturally natural. And I—
right, people are natural off camera, off microphone, right? But then they go on microphone. I know this as a talk show host. So when I listen to other talk show hosts, at least half of them are talking differently on air than they do privately.
Totally. I don't. Oh, not at all.
Not at all. Not one iota. Right. So I had to train myself not to enter public talk with, "Hi everybody, welcome to the show," and you know, I don't do that.
Do you think I speak differently?
No, no, that's the point though, but you have to guard against it.
Right, yeah. So I wanna let my character come out a bit more on this podcast. I have to tell you what we just did before we started filming. You mean when you were shooting at the basket? Yes. We are such characters, as you said, off air. Like when we come in here to, film this. It's already 1 o'clock. I came in here at noon when your show ended. The reason why we started an hour late is— it happens every time— is because we're just goofing off with Sean and with everyone here.
Thank God Sean is super straight. Yeah, thank God. Exactly. Otherwise nothing would get done.
He does keep us straight though. He, he just said to us before we went on, yeah, what did he say? Shenanigans for the podcast. He said that because we were just going on and on.
Yeah, actually, because he's Irish.
He does look like a leprechaun today.
Shenanigans. He looks like a leprechaun today.
I can say that, I'm Irish.
Sean, for those of you who's not Irish— Scottish? No. Yes. And he hates when he's confused. Are you Scottish? Yes, he's Scottish.
Why haven't you corrected me? Sean, I am stunned. Wait, actually, he never told me that. I've been calling him Irish for a year.
I think it's fair to say he He asked me if it would hurt you. Because, because, you know, you want everybody to be Irish.
That is funny. By the way, I have never met a person who is Irish who is not a character.
Well, those two are characters. There you go. And in Phelim, and my mother, who's 100% Irish.
That is so interesting. That's why I think there is a part that's cultivated or encouraged environmentally or culturally. But wait, I was I was just going to tell the listeners, Sean is a redhead with a beard and he's wearing this big green t-shirt today. That's why I said he looked like a leprechaun.
Why did you feel you had to explain that? I don't know.
I wanted to give people an image of Sean.
Oh, okay. That's fair. I got you.
Otherwise they wouldn't understand why I called him that.
So what else is on your mind?
Well, I want to tell you about these emails that I've been getting. I realized that I call you and I tell you about people writing into my website juliehartman.com, but I never talk about it on the air. And I thought, why do I just save it for you? I should tell everyone. I really just want to say how— and I know you know this, Dennis, but I'm telling it to the viewers— how much I appreciate getting mail. Unfortunately, as you very well know, and you have this times 10, I can't respond to everything, but I read every single piece of mail, and people are so nice. They send me book recommendations. They send me, you know, we talk a lot about Juliet and Virginia writing in with suggestions. We get a lot of other people commenting on our podcast. I get a lot of messages of encouragement. Ready for this? I got an email from a guy from Australia. We have a listener in Australia. We have a listener in Puerto Rico.
We have We have more than one. Yeah, probably. I love— we have a— wait, we have a listener in Australia is not an achievement. Okay, we have listeners in Australia.
Is it achieved? I thought it was cool.
It's very cool, but, but a, it doesn't, doesn't sound quite as impressive.
Okay, fair enough, fair enough. You have to understand, I— and, and we talked about it.
No, no, I love, I love your right to be excited.
I am to this day that I do this this job, and I know you have it too, and that people are writing. I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable.
It's a blessing.
But yes, we have, we have people writing in from Puerto Rico. We have veterans and people who are in the Marines and the Navy and former police officers. And the best emails that I get— I have to give a shout out to two girls, Stephanie and Ruby— I get emails from high school students increasingly, which is very encouraging because it shows that it's reaching young people. That's right.
And you know why? My theory— why? Because we're real. Yes, that's the reason.
We are totally real, right?
So this is like— this is our edition of Real Housewives. We're more real than the Real Housewives.
Well, that is not a— that's not an achievement. Exactly. So last episode we talked about— oh God, of course now I'm forgetting the colloquialism. You said something like a monkey— a monkey's uncle, right?
I'm a monkey's uncle.
And I asked people to write in with some of the sayings that people in their lives, or they say, so I'm gonna read a few aloud.
Wait, sayings that we may not know? Yes, that we may not know. Or have died.
Right. So I had someone, this is Brian writing in, that his father, if his father met someone who was particularly dull, he might say that that person was dumb as a box of rocks, two fries short of a Happy Meal, and sometimes his father would say— That's funny. I think that's funny too.
Two fries short of a Happy Meal.
I may have to borrow that, Brian.
So that means that's dull. That's dull. And what was the first one?
Dumb as a box of rocks.
So there are a lot of dumbass. He's not the brightest bulb, you know. Yeah. And the— what is it in the drawer? No, no. The sharpest, sharpest tool. God. Yes. Sharpest. Sharpest. You're seeing us flounder. Sharpest knife in the drawer. Tool in the shed. Wait, what about the bulb? The brightest bulb where? It could be either one. Okay, fine.
Yes, what else? Okay, Brian's father also would say— I love this one— his mother didn't call him son because he was bright. Cute. I like that. Yes. And then when someone was busy, his father would say he was busier than a one-armed paper hanger. Okay, it's kind of descriptive. Okay, then there's another— I think it was a woman who wrote in to me that It's interesting, most of the people who wrote in, they were quoting their parents or their siblings. They were not quoting themselves.
So it's an interesting question. Are there as many of these sayings today? I don't think so. I don't think so.
People are not as creative.
I think that's true. They're not as spontaneous. That's the word I would use.
That's a better word, yes. So this, I think the mother of this person who wrote in would say, you've put enough sugar on that cereal to sink a battleship.
And that would be in reference to Just Sugar. Yeah. Oh, literally? Yeah. Okay.
And then this guy, do you know Chuck Thompson? Apparently he was a sports announcer. Do you, Sean? Okay. Well, you know, I wouldn't know it because I could not name more than one NHL team. But apparently this announcer would, if either team made an especially fine play, this guy would say, ain't the beer cold? I think that's kind of fun. Anyway, I just wanted to read those aloud.
And wait, was that sent to you by the same two, uh, or—
No, these are all different that I'm reading. So I just wanted to shout these people out.
By the way, a caller from Pittsburgh confirmed— if you haven't heard me tell you this, I'm sure you don't know this. So in the South they say you all, which by the way I think is very helpful.
Y'all.
If you don't have y'all, what do you say? You guys? I mean, that's the closest, I guess.
And that's not kosher anymore.
Yeah, which I couldn't care less, but you're right. But they have a term for y'all only in Pittsburgh. Yinz. Yinz? Y-I-N-Z.
Isn't that interesting? Yes. Can you use it? It's just—
No, that's y'all. You know, so what do yinz think about that? That's fun. I love it. I agree with you.
So please send more. I really like reading about these.
What happened to the high school kid who told you?
Oh yes, I was going.
So Julie debated whether to read this because she thought, does it— is it sound a little bragging or pompous? And I want to actually deal with that for a moment after you read it.
Okay. This email— I mean, I didn't hear this email, by the way. This email brought me to tears and I read it aloud to my parents too, and it brought them to tears. And I'm, you know, I'm not a crier. But it really did. So here's what this high school student wrote to me: "Dear Julie, from the moment I saw a video of you doing your podcast with Dennis Prager only a few weeks ago, a desire to know more about you sparked within me. I'm at a loss for words how to praise your confident spirit, profound goodness, pure heart, and incredible mind." Boy, is that kind. "I, as a young conservative, God-fearing woman entering her final year of high school, find myself truly inspired by you." 'For years I have known of my fascination with life.' That's what we just talked about. 'But only recently have dreamed of truly making an impact in our dark world. My love for the power of words has only increased upon learning of you and your story. My father, whom I deeply adore and respect, has long been a subscriber to Dennis Prager's wisdom and insight, and while he has been a role model for him, you have become mine. Thank you for inspiring me.' I got the chills. I know, I know. I cried when I read it. Thank you for inspiring me to use my mind for the better and for giving me the confidence to be bold in the truth. May wisdom prevail in the darkness.
I could spend the rest of this podcast reacting to that letter. So let me give you a few immediate reactions.
What a clearly special person.
Sorry, that is one of them. And I, but I exactly, but I want to explain why. Right. I have a theory on that. First, that letter is why I beg people to have them watch this podcast, get young people to watch this.
The—
your youth is a very big appeal to very young people. Then I become appealing, and I am appealing to young people. I'm not being self-deprecating, but obviously this is big. So that's a perfect example. Point number 2: This girl is very special. The fact that she wrote this, the fact that she listens, all of these things. But there's, there's a giveaway. So I want, I want to tell you this. This is a big deal in my life. Good people— let's put it this way— bad people don't write to another person. It is clear how good you are, or your goodness comes through. Only good people recognize goodness. Totally. So I immediately know that about this, this young woman. Okay, that's a very big deal. Bad people don't look for goodness by definition. So that, that's that immediate circle. Number 3, I am told, and it means, and it's important to me, regularly by people, you've changed my life. And I always— not nearly always, put it that way— I say to them, I hope that's true, but I want you to understand you get half the credit.
You said that to me the first time we met. I did? On the air. The first time I was ever on the air. We should go back and listen to that. We should almost play it on this show. That's a good idea. It was a turning point in my life, and you said that on air.
Do you remember what I said?
Yes, because I was talking about how PragerU influenced me and you said, you know what, you get half the credit because—
Well, that's right, because 100 people will hear the same thing, 50, their life isn't changed. Exactly. So clearly there's something in you that responded. Absolutely. Yes, okay.
And by the way, you know, I do give myself credit because yes, obviously you have influenced me hugely, but I sought that out. I ordered your book. I Googled during the Black Lives Matter riots, what do conservatives think about police? It has to be within you.
That's exactly right. And by the way, it's both. It's true, but it's not exactly happy news to me. Whenever I realize it has to be in you, has to be in you, it has to be in you. I am— I've never said this publicly. You bring out a lot of, so to speak, new stuff, at least new stuff publicly. And I don't hide anything.
It's really— it really is what's unique about this pod, especially for Dennis Prager fans. You see a different side.
Totally. And I've never had a podcast with someone else, right? Or broadcast. So I, I really do struggle with an issue, not with God's existence, for example. I struggle with the issue of free will. Me too.
It's actually so interesting that you bring this up. Sorry, I'm not— I know.
No, no, I wanted to talk about it today. Yes. So I— when, when we say, let's say even the character issue, I'll take an— I'll take a, a non-super serious part. I didn't choose to be a character. You didn't choose to be a character. So a lot of our personality is not chosen, right? Everyone who has a child knows the kid's born with a temperament. I mean, you know, like our dear friends the Gottliebs who have this— oh, right, so this grandkid who he can't stop smiling.
You got it. You got to tell the viewers what he calls me. Yes, the Shabbat princess.
Yeah, he calls me the Shabbat princess.
It's It's so cute. He does know my name, but when I'm not there, Shabbat, he goes, where's the Shabbat princess?
That's the older one, who also has a great temperament. Oh, you're talking about the baby? The baby, I have not seen the baby not smile. He wakes up, he smiles. So, whereas my older brother was colicky. I mean, I'm told this, obviously I wasn't born. But it's a very tough issue. I— now to get super serious. So when I read about men who molest little kids, prepubescent children, because there's a difference post-pubescent and prepubescent. Prepubescent, that's pedophilia. Again, in, in the completely, uh, dishonest world of media, when it— when a guy has had, uh, relations with a 17-year-old, they called him a pedophile. That's absurd. It, it detracts from the evil of pedophilia, right? It's a minor, but it's not a— it's not a—
there are gradations. Yeah, of course. Well, we talked about it.
Prepubescent is different from postpubescent. So anyway, when I hear of a guy who, you know, I mean, I'll get Super duper serious. Rapes a 5-year-old. So I think I don't get credit for not raping a 5-year-old. It's like it's giving me credit for not raping an aardvark. I mean, it doesn't— it's, it's not a battle I have to fight. That there are men who have to fight that battle, I, I'm not excusing them. They should, they should be in prison. Maybe they should be castrated. But I'm just saying, everybody has to fight battles. I've had to fight battles too, so I get it. But I understand why people rob banks. I understand why people murder. I understand sexual harassment. I understand a lot of things. I mean the impulse. Yes, the impulse. Okay, but I don't understand some impulses. Right. Or to torture an animal.
So are you saying it's within their nature? Yes. Yes. That's interesting.
Well, obviously. No, no, no. It's not a theory. It's— if it isn't in their nature, they wouldn't do it.
Right. Well, the argument is that they, you know, could have had a horrible, horribly traumatic childhood. You're right.
So it's in their nature from their traumatic— I didn't say they're born with it.
Oh, okay. It doesn't matter. Okay, I see what you're saying.
They have it. I don't have it. Right. So I, I get credit for being not cheating on exams, not, not robbing anybody, being faithful to my wife. There are things I get credit for, but that's not one of them. There's no impulse to fight. So that's what I mean by free choice. Mm-hmm. From cringing at the pump to getting an eye-popping check at your favorite restaurant, inflation is hitting us all where it hurts, and it really hurts. That's why I started using Upside. Upside is an incredible app for anyone who buys gas, groceries, or dines out. With every purchase, you'll earn, as I have, cash back thanks to Upside. I couldn't believe it actually, but it's so simple to use and you really do get much more money back than anywhere else I have ever heard of. I don't know why you wouldn't do it, frankly. To get started, download the free Upside app, use my promo code Dennis and Julie, and get $5 or more cash back on your first purchase of $10 or more. Next, claim an offer for whatever you're buying on Upside, check in at the business, pay as usual with a credit debit card and get paid. Download the free Upside app and use the promo code Dennis and Julie to get $5 or more cash back on your first purchase of $10 or more. That's $5 or more cash back on your first purchase of $10 or more using the promo code Dennis and Julie.
I know it's, it's a very interesting subject because obviously I— one of the things that I dislike the most about the left is I think that they totally discard the idea of free will. They— it's essentially— I read Rousseau this past year in school, and his whole philosophy is that you are born good and it's society that corrupts you. I hate that idea. I hate it. Because then you're not responsible for anything, and it's the typical left-wing mantra. But also, it's sort of what you're saying, that we do have to recognize that there are— people do have natures. And in some way, I mean, I see it a lot even with some of my friends who are liberals, and I try to talk to them about just common sense issues with regard to police. I was just talking to one of my friends the other day about, I think you may have talked about it on your show this morning, Dennis Prager, about how Boston's Children's Hospital is allowing hysterectomies for 18-year-olds who want to transition because all these doctors are calling it gender-affirming ideology. Sometimes when I talk to my liberal friends, I don't know if this is going— this is either going to make total sense to you or no sense to you. Sometimes I just think it's not within their nature to understand my side or to understand just how bad things are in America. I do think that some people are morally and intellectually lazy where they just don't care to see it, don't care to fight, don't care to confront the bad issues. But I don't know, with a lot of liberals and leftists that I encounter, it almost feels like it's something within them that is pulling them to leftism. It's a part of their nature to embrace these ideas.
Does that make any sense to you? Unfortunately, it makes sense.
Yeah. I feel like no matter— I could outline with some people the best arguments and they still, like, something within them would not allow them to accept it. So that would support your point.
It does, and that's why I say I'm troubled by it. It's probably the biggest single quote-unquote, I guess, philosophical issue I struggle with. I mean, I've always struggled with a good God and all the suffering in the world, but I've resolved that because I believe a good God governs the universe and there's an afterlife and it'll be resolved in some way. Okay, but the free will issue, and even what you just said, do you really believe— if you really believe fewer police will, will reduce crime Mm-hmm. So you are either— and I, I hate to say this because it sounds sort of like a cheap shot, but I don't mean— I mean it literally. So you're either an idiot, in other words, incapable of clarity of thought, or there's what your theory— there's something going on in there that we can't relate to. Yes. To say such obviously refutable things Especially leftists.
I mean, you always— and this is one of the main things that I've learned from you, and I'm immensely grateful for it— that there's— we have to make a distinction between liberals and leftists. I think liberals have more of the free will component, if you will, like they can kind of hopefully reason. With leftists, I'm sorry to say this, there's something that's sick. There's something that's innately kind of screwed up. For them to buy hook, line, and sinker these insane things.
Well, just to, to, to live in this society and not be grateful for it.
I know, I know.
We, you and I and tens of millions of others think that that is truly sick. So it's either sick or there's something really bad about you.
You know, I've noticed with, because again, I can't tell you how many times I've had the thought in the debate, like, you know, is it just within this person to follow these ideologies, or is there a free will component? I have observed, and again, it's anecdotal, it's just my own life observation, that many of those on the left suffer from low self-esteem. Despite what you talk about, of how there's this huge self-esteem movement and we're told how great we are, and that's not great for us growing up.
Why do you say that?
Again, it's just, I think a lot of them, these people who I have known personally, and obviously I've encountered many of them throughout my educative experience from high school to college, they are insecure. The most hardline leftists I know are fundamentally insecure people. And I think they're trying to grasp at something that gives them meaning or gives them a sense of superiority. So that's one thing I've noticed. Another thing, and this may seem a bit counterintuitive because the left, especially leftists specifically, really can get in your face and get loud. A lot of liberals, I have observed, are extremely conflict-averse. They don't want to ruffle any feathers. That I relate to. You know, just interpersonally. They could be sitting at a restaurant for 30 minutes and the waiter won't wait on them and they will not get up and ask to be waited on. There's something within them that is conflict-averse, so they go, oh, I don't know if people are happier without police, who am I to judge? Oh, I don't know if people If people wanna, you know, like Boston Children's Hospital wanna cut off people's boobs before 17, who am I to judge? There's a weird conflict aversion there. Again, it's something innate.
So I think that's a very excellent observation. The liberals I know in my extended family, I think that is a trait that I would associate with them. And this is not a condemnation, it's just, That's very, very observant. On the, on the first one, the self-esteem thing, we might have an area we differ. Oh, there you go. But your mother's, your mother's wish. That's right. So when I think of George Soros or AOC or, you know, Nancy Pelosi, I don't think of people with low self-esteem. Fair enough.
Those people certainly don't.
I, I, I, on the contrary, think they have abnormally, inordinately high self-esteem. I am the determiner of right and wrong. I so trust my feelings. I don't need a God. I don't need a Bible. I don't need a religion. I don't need a Constitution. I, I am the determiner of right and wrong. See, I don't think that way. Oh, you'll love this. I don't know if you know this line. I've said it on a number of occasions, but I don't think I've said it to you. So, you know Alan Dershowitz, the famous Harvard lawyer? Of course. And so before he defended liberal principles and defended Trump in court, he was the darling of liberal America. He was the intellectual hero. Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School. So we were both brought to New York City many years ago, maybe 20 years ago, when they still invited people like me to the 92nd Street Y, a very famous place in New York City. So Dershowitz and I were invited to talk about Jews and Democrats and Republicans.
Is this the Torah? Yes.
Do you know the line? I do. So this is a very important line that I said to Alan Dershowitz in the middle. I said, I said, Professor, or Alan, I remember what I called him then, said, so I came, I realized something tonight. When, when Alan Dershowitz differs with the Torah, that's the first 5 books of the Bible, and it's the most important part of the Bible to Jews. When Alan Dershowitz differs with the Torah, he says the Torah is wrong. And he is right. When I differ with the Torah, I say the Torah is right and I am wrong.
I think about that once a day, seriously I do, because you wrote it in your Genesis commentary, and I think it's one of the more memorable lines that you have in there. And the reason why it stuck with me is, A, because I totally agree with you. That's the way that I see things with regard to the Bible. But also It was a bit instructive for me reading that. Even though naturally I would defer to the Bible than to my own conscience or my own judgment, I also try to remind myself of that too, that it's important. I mean, really uniquely with the Bible, I wouldn't say for anything else, but when it comes to the Bible, it is important to practice that and know that you can't just trust yourself with regard to morals.
So that's why I raised it with regard to leftist self-esteem. So here's my response to that.
I totally hear what you're saying and you're right, especially the figures you mentioned. I mean, they have to have extremely high self-esteem to think that they can be the arbiters of their own truth, as they like to say, and just disregard the traditional guardrails that we've had in this country. I think— ah, Dennis, I just said "um." You praised me the other day for not saying "um." I can't believe I just did that.
Very difficult to spontaneously speak for over an hour and never say, um. Your number is so small. Well, we're at 1. Okay, well, it also shows you listen to yourself. I do. You're very self-aware. Oh, absolutely. I know, I know. And it takes the self-aware to know self-aware.
That's right. So I'm not going to say, um. I think that there might be a difference between people who have gotten to the level that an AOC or George Soros has gotten to and then the college students who I surround myself with, because many of them are still developing and they're trying to figure out who they are. And I think the reason why I said that they suffer from low self-esteem is because, again, I think a lot of them really do. I think a lot of them are insecure and they grasp at leftism to give their lives purpose and meaning. And again, to feel morally superior. I remember one of the earliest segments I did on your show last summer when I had the honor of being a weekly guest, I talked about how in my judgment, leftism for people is more about the psychological benefits or benefits of being a part of the cohort than it is actually about their ideological commitment. And again, maybe being insecure is different than having low self-esteem. Maybe there's a little bit of difference there. But I do think with younger people, it actually is a self-esteem issue.
I think that they may be right. The leaders may well be high self-esteem.
They have people bowing down to them. Right.
Well, and they got there because they had high self-esteem. So, yes, I think that's a fair thing. So when I think of the average Antifa rioter. Yeah.
So very high self-esteem. No.
Oh, no, I don't know. Oh, on the contrary, I'm saying I don't know. I think your point, because they're mostly young, my assumption about the average Antifa rioter, I'm not talking about the peaceful protesters.
I heard you say Antifa leader. I didn't know the average Antifa rioter.
Oh no, no, rioter. Right, I don't even know if they have leaders. True. So I imagine a, it's usually male 'cause it's the violent part, I imagine a loser, very likely at home in his parents' basement. That, that, yes. And that's not a self-esteem. So that's not a— so that— so I'm agreeing with you on the rank and file, and you're agreeing with me on the leaders, right, of the left. Yep, exactly. And your point about the liberal is about being That's right, not risk-averse but confrontational-averse. Yes. That is so— that's a really good point. They're the ones who— they don't want to confront the left. If the left has no liberal values and they still won't confront them.
And I think they don't want to confront the hard truths of life. You know, I— this is an idea that I'm sort of privately developing. It occurred to me recently that growing up, at least for me, I was taught to value compassion far more than to value good judgment. In school, it was constantly imparted to me that you have to be kind to others and try to understand people and, you know, go out of your way to assist them. And I can't think of one time— my parents talked to me about having good judgment at home, but I'm talking about—
by the way, another word for good judgment is wisdom. Wisdom. Wisdom, yes, absolutely.
But in school, I don't think I was ever told in these terms or in any kind of similar terms that part of life is exercising judgment, and part of exercising judgment is that sometimes you have to be harsh with people or you have to disagree with people or you have to do uncomfortable things. It was always kind of, and again, I grew up in LA, I went to liberal school, so perhaps it was just my environment, But I think generally young people are kind of taught this fluffy stuff of loving everybody and being kind. And we don't, so in a way we're kind of taught to be conflict averse. Whereas I think it's really helpful and I really want to impart to my children, look, I would love to live in a world where we can all link arms and sing kumbaya and everyone can just live the way that they want to. But part of building a good civilization and building a good life for yourself is that you have to exercise judgment and do things that are uncomfortable. So that's why the liberal, I mentioned like the waiter example, I can't tell you how many of my liberal friends just in everyday interactions will not stand up for themselves, will not confront someone. It's weird. It's very odd.
And it supports their liberalism. I'm quiet because I'm smiling and I can't stop smiling.
I love when you get that look. One of our listeners commented on it. When I say something that, strikes a chord in you, you get this great look.
So I'm going off on a tangent. I want to— that's okay, tangents are good. Tangents are good if you go back. By the way, you know, I make a mental note in my, in my mind so that I do go back.
We go on a lot of them on this show.
Well, right, and I do it in speeches and on the radio, but I gotta go back. Okay, okay, so we will go back. Yeah, but we will. So, but Uh, so we have mentioned this a lot to each other, but I don't think we've said it in the podcast. But I think it will, it will strike people as interesting. It certainly strikes us as interesting. So I, I will speak for me and say, and it's, it's actually sort of amazing for me to hear myself say this, When I am with you and talk to you, I do not feel this large age gap. I just feel human-human, which is almost bizarre when I think about it. And I can't say that I have had that experience before. There are many young people that I deeply admire, Uh, so I just thought it'd be worthy of note. I don't feel— people say, oh, you know, are you her mentor? Well, to, to a certain extent, obviously, but I don't, I don't feel that in our interaction.
We do remark on this a lot, and I agree with you because obviously when I'm with you The extent to which I feel the age difference is that I know that you have so much more wisdom and intelligence than I do. And obviously you're 3 times my— not to rub it in, but you're 3 times my age, so it would make sense that you do. But otherwise, I agree with you. It really is just human to human. And again, at the risk of complimenting myself, I've always had that with adults. Ever since I was young, I have always gotten along better with adults and actually preferred to be in the company of adults than people my age. Even in high school, I would have very close relationships. I mean, I know I've talked about this here. I loved my high school, and a huge reason was because of the teachers. But they would confide in me about their families and about very personal things. And again, it was just always this level of understanding I had with those who were older than I. So it doesn't shock me that—
well, I have it with you too. Yeah. So it's interesting. I was very comfortable with adults, but I, I think you actually sought that company more than even I did. I did. Yes. And but I certainly never sought the company of people much younger than me. I mean, of course, I relate to them because there were so many terrific people at PragerU. And I really adore them. Oh, PragerU, Dennis. As you know, I mean, I adore them. But, you know, I don't go to dinner with them regularly. Right. And I would go to dinner with you regularly. Well, we talk on the phone every day.
Well, practically, yes, exactly.
So I just thought people would find this— the whole— this whole thing is in the realm of the phenomenal. It's a phenomenon. And I— neither of us fully explains it, nor does it matter. But I just thought it, it's not, it's not a tactic that we have a podcast. Oh, isn't that interesting? Old and young.
No, you're right. It's so not.
It's two humans who happen to be old and young, but, but that's not the, that's not the reason for it.
And you know, okay, this is, this is an especially morbid thought, but it also, also shows how open we are. I think sometimes what I would say at your funeral, which is again probably a very morbid thing to say, but sometimes I think of like if I had, you know, if I eulogized Dennis one day, what would I say? And that's quite a tall order to be able to tell people what you mean to me. But I was actually thinking about this as I was driving in today. I would say that you're one of my best friends. I mean, we really are. That's right. Wouldn't you say? Of course. I mean, but this also relates to something that we've said to, in the past on, on this show, you know, sisters are so close you should say they're like friends as opposed to family. I also view you like you're a member of my family. You're, you're a friend, but you're also in a way kind of my boss and my co-host and a friend. I mean, there's, there's so many layers to this, but it really is just human to human.
Well, it's just true. It's just, it is what it is. And I just thought it was, it was interesting to note. That's so when I was smiling so much before.
I can't believe I just brought up when I eulogized Dennis Prager.
Oh, by the way, it's, it's funny. That's worthy of a— that's really worthy of a topic because Americans don't talk about death. People are so— secular society is so afraid of death. It's so hidden. I don't have zero— I have zero fear of dying.
Zero. I asked you that once.
Yes, I don't want to die because I'm having a great time and because I have a lot to do. But, but what is there to fear? There's either nothing—
that's what I was gonna say—
or, or I believe that I have a good afterlife because I think God will judge me favorably, as a general statement of my—
that's what you said to me once. You said, yes, it's either nothing or good.
Yes, nothing. Well, in my case, I hope it's nothing or bad. In some other people's case—
true. Well, you brought that up just a few minutes ago at the start of our show, how you said when you were younger you thought about death a fair amount. Yeah, you weren't going to live. And I have that too, right? And that's why I'm so motivated to really, again, just make the most out of that. Well, understand things and people. I mean, it's—
in my sophomore year in high school, I wrote what we used to call— they call them essays now, we call them compositions. So it was, and of course, handwritten. Nobody, nobody typed this stuff at the right time. And I wrote for my English teacher, who by the way, interestingly, was a Catholic priest who converted to Judaism.
Wow. Is this the one that you're still in touch with?
No, he died many years ago. Okay. I don't know another one.
I thought you knew a Catholic priest.
I know a Catholic, but he's Catholic. I didn't know if he converted to Judaism. Yeah, no, no, no, no. He's a serious Catholic, which I'm very happy about. And anyway, I wrote my essay. It was titled, or the subject, I don't remember the title. The subject was I want to prove George Bernard Shaw wrong. George Bernard Shaw had said that it's too bad youth is wasted on the young.
And I remember thinking, not in my case. You mentioned that a few weeks ago on this program.
I did. God, it's great to do this with you because it's like having a Google on my show.
I gotta say, I have always benefited from a great memory.
I mentioned— I've always had to overcome a non-great memory, especially with names. I have to say, no, no, no, even, even what was said.
Well, as I've mentioned before, I know on this program, at my elementary school, we had to learn all of the states and capitals. And I have to tell you, it was so easy for me because I do have a killer memory.
You know them now? You quizzed me. And did you pass?
You said Colombia, and I said Bogotá, and then you said something else. No, no, no, not Colombia.
Wait, wait, that's— Columbia is a country, right? Oh, you knew countries too?
Yes.
Oh, we did fifth grade with states and capitals. So you knew Bogotá?
Yes, I did. Right.
Do you know Kentucky? Oh God, I've forgotten all the states.
That's a toughie. What is it? Frankfurt. Oh, that's right. Yes.
So there are 5 that nobody knows, but it doesn't— I'll do it another time.
I want to— Yes, good. Who's that press secretary? What's her name? Jen Saki? Saki? She always says circle back. They're like 30 times in a press conference and they, I think like the Daily Wire does circle back and she goes, we're gonna circle back to that. So I'm hesitant to use that term, but we should circle back to what we were saying, which was that liberals are conflict averse. I believe that's what we were.
Well, that was one of the things. Wasn't that true? Well, free choice. We did free choice. We did And we did the self-esteem, and then the last one was the conflict.
I was saying that we are taught to value compassion more than judgment. That's right. Part of having judgment is balancing compassion with—
well, you know, in my Torah commentary, my Bible commentary, in the listing of false gods, I have love.
Love is a false god, which is very interesting. Yes. Well, I'm honest. You are honest.
Religion could be a false god. It's very hard to worship God. That was the great line of a man that I admire tremendously, Jordan Peterson. And by the way, it's interesting, you know, I just spent 8 days with him, like, like half the day, 8 days. And here's an example of someone You know, people are afraid if they meet a hero, so to speak, and will they be diminished when they meet them? But he in no way, he's just, he's a serious, wonderful, courageous, brilliant human being.
I have to tell you, thanks to you, I have met several prominent conservative figures. Every single one is that I have met They're so down to earth. And growing up in Los Angeles, I mentioned this the other day when you were interviewing me at your shul, which was very fun.
Synagogue.
Yeah, for the synagogue. Yes. For those who don't know. Oh my God, that's number 2. Oh no, you didn't even notice it. Okay, we can move on. I said, um, yes, Sean, cut it out, please. I can't believe I'm shaking his head.
He might leave. He might walk out.
This is my Irish Catholic part of me. Endlessly self-critical.
Well, that and female.
And female. Oh, I know. Tell me about it. Okay. So at your shul, I was saying, growing up in Los Angeles, I've had the chance of encountering many— the chance to, I should say, encounter many celebrities. And, you know, it's kind of a mixed bag. A lot— some of them are down to earth and were kind. Some of them aren't. But again, with all of the conservatives that I've met, they are all so, so sweet. And another thing that I think is worth mentioning, and it kind of shocked me in a good way when I first started working for you, there's no sense of competition between PragerU and The Daily Wire or XYZ's radio show and your radio show.
I had, I had Seb Gorka on today.
No, you, you all are remarkably supportive of one another. I remember I said that to you. I said, Well, I think the— I think PragerU and The Daily Wire, don't you guys have some kind of agreement?
Oh, we're very close. Right. But very close.
But, you know, you were competitors, technically competitors.
We don't think it at all. Exactly.
And you said to me, we all support each other because we are rowing in the same boat. We all want the same thing. We're all part of this fight.
To save this country and liberty. And I thought, what a remarkable—
I mean, this is a remarkable job for so many reasons, but to be in this kind of club of people that just want to support each other.
Well, so you might have my— my tendency. So you've heard me say all-star team or star. Yeah, yeah. So again, it's a nature thing. I'd rather be on an all-star team than be a star.
I have heard you say that.
That's what you're saying about you. Yes.
And let me tell you, that is not taught at a place like Harvard or any of the—
oh, they're all stars. Oh my God, right? You know, by the way, you, you, you think You made that point to me on a phone call this week.
I was just about to bring it up. Go ahead. So as I mentioned earlier, I'm reading this book, A History of the American People by Paul Johnson, and I'm about 150 pages in. I just finished the colonial period, and I thought to myself, I'm gonna— I'm going to read it cover to cover. I'm not crazy, you know, colonial period is conventionally understood as the boring part of our history, and I thought, okay, it's something I really should know. I'm going to slog through it. I swear I am riveted. That was the most riveting 150 pages I've ever read. And it hit me just how remarkably brave those Puritans and the people who went to Jamestown earlier than the Puritans in 1607, just all of the people that came to America. And of course, as we all know, they were slave owners, they were not kind to the Indians. I'm not excusing any of that. But I still think that that we have to acknowledge how brave and principled those individuals were to get on a boat in this early 17th century, sail across the Atlantic to a brand new land, and start this remarkable country that we have. And I was thinking that in the 17th century, 18th century, 19th century, and I would even say up until the first half of the 20th century, there seemed to be this understanding that we We, as Americans, every generation was passed the baton of civilization, and they had to carry it on and continue to build this country. And that is so lost now. I don't think— again, I talked about how in school I was never told to value judgment. It was never communicated to me, no kind of sentiment that we have inherited this great country and through our conduct and our actions and the way that we treat one another, we we have to continue building it. That was never expressed to us. I think that there is this understanding, especially among people my age, that America has reached its peak and that it's going to stay this way. That, oh, generations past had to fight in all of these wars and had to kind of perfect things and develop technologies, and now we're at the place where we can kind of relax. No, nothing is guaranteed. It's like growing a garden. Do you spend all of this time growing your garden and then ditch it and think that it will continue to bring you fruit? No, you have to take care of it. As many of you know, I recently graduated from college, and I want to tell you about a great college in New York City. The King's College is a Christian liberal arts college in New York's Financial District, providing a disciplined curriculum with a Christian worldview, both in person and online. The King's College has majors in business, Finance, Politics, Journalism, Media, Religion, and more. Every program is rooted in a politics, philosophy, and economics core curriculum, which provides students with a framework for understanding the way the world works and how it is influenced. Because of this, King's graduates are well-rounded critical thinkers. King's faculty pride themselves in not sharing their opinions on topics, but instead teaching the historical context that roots the issues of the day. They like to say that students come to King's to earn their opinion. Faculty don't teach students what to think, but how to think. Both the online and in-person education from King's will prepare you to interact in any industry. King's alumni thrive after graduation. Students go on to top graduate schools at Harvard, Columbia, and Yale, or begin careers at reputable and impressive organizations such as the United Nations, the Department of Justice, the Wall Street Journal, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Charity Water, Marc Jacobs, and more. Find out how you can attend the King's College in person or online today by visiting tkc.edu. Don't just go to college, go to King's. Start your journey at tkc.edu. So anyway, that's, that's the thing that I told you on the phone.
We, we have no sense of That is, but it wasn't the thing I was thinking of. Is that all right?
So I just went on for a minute and a half about something you weren't thinking of. I noticed you smiling and I thought to myself—
What was that smile about?
Well, that's kind of mortifying.
No, it isn't at all because it was important what you said.
It is important what I said.
No, we were talking about stars and then—
Well, I thought this related to that point because we're all kind of on the all-star team of America.
Right, okay, I got you, I got you. That's embarrassing. What I— it shouldn't be, but I was thinking of what you had told me, how constantly the students at Harvard were told they're stars. Yes, that's what I was thinking.
But again, that actually does not—
members of an all-star team, right? You are the stars that will lead America. We are, we are told—
see, actually, I don't think it's so much We are told that we're the stars who are going to lead America. We're actually more so told that we are the stars who are going to fix how horrible America is. But I think more than that, the emphasis is on building ourselves up and building our own lives. I think that what people my age are animated by is this desire to, you know, make it big in their career, go to a great graduate school, get married, have super successful kids, live in a big house. It's all about that. Them and building their lives and their personal success. The point in this spiel that I just went on, which I'm sorry was not what you originally thought, was that we're not taught to build America alongside ourselves.
By the way, I think there's a connection between that and leftist ideals or leftist values. People who are preoccupied with themselves in the way you described have some annoying conscience in them. I know, like Hollywood stars, they know they have lived completely for their own selves and their own career. They know that they haven't, in their view, made the world better by acting in a movie. So they have to answer to the question, well, what are you doing for the world? Oh, I'm fighting racism. That's a big part of the reason Hollywood is leftist. By the way, here's the irony. Totally right. Actors and actresses should know that just making movies that help people navigate through life by giving them 2 hours—
that's a service— is a big service. Absolutely.
But people used— people in Hollywood used to believe that. They didn't think they had to be the moral barometers of the country.
Well, that's an interesting point, I think, for another reason. It shows that they see themselves and their work as superficial. Yes, they do.
They do, which is your point originally.
Absolutely. Yes, ironically, yes. You know, this is again off topic, not shocking to us or to anyone listening, but I thought of it when you said that the Hollywood stars want to, quote, fight racism. I said this to you on the phone a few weeks ago, I don't know if you remember. I have realized that most of the things that my peers are quote unquote fighting against, like racism, they have never seen before in their lives. And it just occurred to me what an insane idea that is. What an insane reality that is, that people all day are talking about things and supposedly trying to combat things that they've never ever experienced. Against. Again, at Harvard, people are writing theses on climate change and racism and transphobia and homophobia, and in their lives they have never, ever seen it.
Right, including the climate change. Exactly. Right, so tell me, what has Massachusetts undergone that is so severe that we have to undo the economy of the world?
I just, I couldn't, when I realized that, It was, what are we all, zombie? I mean, how creepy is that?
That is so, it is creepy.
Isn't it creepy? And I thought, you know what, how much better would the world be if people at these universities tried to fight and combat what was actually right in front of them, what they actually can see. Harvard Square has so many homeless people, it's actually devastating. I was reading a Crimson article recently that I think once a month on average there's a dead homeless man found in Harvard Square. I mean, homelessness has become a real problem. Even woke culture at these universities, I mean, obviously people wouldn't want to combat that because they're woke themselves, but there are actual problems that exist right in front of us that people see every day that they just don't care about. But instead they go and fight racism, which they have never seen or experienced before in their entire lives. It's weird. And I think it's because they don't want to do the work to confront the actual problems that are in front of them.
Goes back to your non-confrontational.
Absolutely. It takes rolling up your sleeves and encountering really, a really sad reality to go out and help the homeless people in Harvard Square.
So I'm gonna give you another Prager theory.
By the way, before you say that, some do. I wanna be fair. They're homeless. You know what I'm saying? I do. Okay, Prager Theory.
So this is— it's multifaceted. And what made me think about it is what I said to you about actors, that they don't feel they're really contributing to the world. They're making a fortune, they have glamour, they have everything, they have jets, they have 4 homes. And, and what am I doing to make a better world? That's what's so— okay, whereas in the past actors and actresses thought, you know what, I'm bringing people something to take their attention away from their daily problems for 2 hours. That's a service, and it is a service. So I was— I'm thinking about this with regard to English departments, art departments, Let's see what else. English, art, I guess those in particular. Oh, music, of course, music. I forgot it because it's a form of art, but doesn't matter. So these professors are confronted with a real dilemma unless they come up with some innovative thing every year or whenever it is, they're teaching the same thing all the time. Beethoven, Shakespeare. And they feel bored. They feel unimportant. See, it's interesting. I've taught the Torah my whole life since I was your age. I was teaching at your age to to kids, high school kids. I never once felt that I was doing anything but a service to these kids. I'm bringing you the greatest texts ever written. They don't feel that. The English department teachers don't think I'm bringing you Shakespeare, the greatest English writer, maybe worldwide writer, who ever lived. This is a major service to you kids. They don't think that, or they just think we're going over well-trodden, if that's a word, ground.
I have a response that I don't want to forget, but before I—
No, go ahead. I am curious.
But first I want to ask you, because my question is more interesting to me, my question to you is more interesting than my response. Why do you think that is? Because people, English teachers once did really believe that they were. Yes. Why? Why has that changed?
That we live— we live in the age of narcissism, and I, I'm convinced that it is related, like almost everything else, to the decline of religion. See, religious people teach the same texts to every generation. Here's the Bible as an example, and we feel that we're doing them a service Right. Giving them the, the best that, that has ever been made. See, I have no issue with somebody writing a phenomenal novel today and incorporating it. That would be great. But when they took down Shakespeare's picture at the University of Pennsylvania English Department— oh God— and, and put up instead a gay Caribbean female whom nobody heard of Oh my God, it wasn't because her poetry is great. Of course not. It was because she's gay and female. So there is no— secularism breeds a lot of bad stuff. It does. And, and one of them is, I have nothing to offer you. The past is worthless.
Yeah, that, that's probably what it is. It's a sense of contempt for tradition and the conventional. Related to that, and this was going to be my original response, I've thought about a lot recently why universities are hubs of leftism. I think obviously a huge reason is that there are so many young people, and young people inevitably toy around with stupid ideas. But I was thinking about my educative experience— by the way, it's my new favorite word, educative. Educative. It sounds so fancy and smart, and it's really not because it almost sounds pompous, but I won't say anything.
Really? It does?
Oh God, don't do that to me. I realize I said it twice in this, this show today.
Is it even— is it a word? What's the difference between education?
I would make up a word.
Part of me does, but the character— exactly. No, no, it sounds like a word that would have been made up at college. Maybe it— maybe— well, like intersectional or matrix. Well, matrix is not made up.
Yeah, I don't, I don't think so. No, no.
What's the difference between educative and educational? I think it's just a different form of— anyway, you mentioned it, so I thought I'd hop on the bandwagon.
Fair enough. Okay. I think that it's because— so again, I was thinking to use it a third time of my educative experience and At universities and even in high school, what's rewarded is novelty. Clear and rational thought is not rewarded as much as novelty. You're supposed to have a new take on an old text, or you're supposed, you know, even in English class with participation, I remember sitting there in 11th grade AP English and you knew that participation counted for 20% of your grade and you were just trying to come up with something that would distinguish you from your classmates and get you those points. It was all about novelty. And in addition to valuing novelty, another thing that happens in the education system, at least again in my experience, but I think it's really widespread now from what I've read, is this idea of critique. I think I've talked about this on, on this program. Every single, almost every single essay prompt I got in high school and college was critique Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter, critique the way that Machiavelli talks about blah, blah, blah. It was always you had to have an intervention. And that always struck me as odd because I thought, don't we first have to read enough literature and learn about enough things and know what we do like and know what is of quality before we can critique it? But those two things, novelty and critique, those are the bedrock of leftism.
I, this is what I mean by I'm speaking in the best sense to myself so often when I'm speaking to you. So when I was your age, actually younger than you, because I had to be, I had to be obviously under 21. So it was about then that they gave the vote to 18-year-olds. And I said to my girlfriend— wow, really?
That wasn't always the case?
No, no, not at all. It was '21. And I remember saying to my, my first serious girlfriend at the time, I said, why are they giving me the vote? I don't know anything. Exactly. Those were my words. And then I hear you say this. Well, I, I don't know enough. When— if someone says, I don't know enough, I assume they're conservative.
Yeah, exactly. Totally, totally, totally. I remember feeling such anxiety when I was younger and getting these essay prompts about having to critique something that I read.
And I— right, isn't the point to give you the best literature and the best art and the best ideas so that you will be able to critique?
Absolutely. And I thought to myself, well, I must be stupid, or I must not be well read. Because they're asking me, I don't know what to critique, I thought it was a great book, or this is an extremely famous—
Hawthorne, you're right, critique Hawthorne, give me a break.
How the hell do I critique Hawthorne?
I couldn't critique Hawthorne today.
I just read his book.
I know, I know, exactly. I'm not capable of critiquing Beethoven, and I conduct symphonies.
See, even the idea of a thesis, and you know that I last year at this time was I was really thinking about whether or not to write one. And one thing that you viewers should know about me, it's a bad quality I have, I'm incredibly indecisive. I don't know if you even know this, but when it comes to, I've always had clarity about the way that I should behave and big decisions in my life, but smaller decisions like writing a thesis or where to eat for lunch, forget about it. I'm horribly indecisive. I am so glad I didn't write a thesis for many reasons. Number one, I would have written a conservative thesis and forget about it. You think Harvard would have given me a magna or summa degree with a conservative thesis? No. Number two, I had a great senior year. I made up for lost time that I, you know, I lost my whole junior year due to COVID. And I'm so glad— lockdown, due to lockdown. Thank you, you, you mentioned that to me and you're right. But also I mean, look, a thesis can be a great endeavor for some people. I even think that's sort of weird to expect 22-year-olds to write because the nature of a thesis is, again, your own original take, your original intervention. How do we at 22 have an original— we can't possibly know enough about the subject, do enough research in the 7 months. And I'm not saying all of it is bad. Certainly you learn how to write, and you do learn how to research. You develop a good relationship with a professor. It's not all for naught. But again, I think it just perpetuates this impulse to come up with stuff. And I, I think a lot of the stuff that is—
well, again, it's really eerie because I had the exact same issue in graduate school. I was at Columbia And I was at the School of International Affairs, specifically the Russian Institute and the Middle East Institute. And I gave my, my, my master's thesis orally. And by the way, the guy I gave it to was Brzezinski, who— Mika Brzezinski's father, who was the security advisor to Jimmy Carter. He was a household name at one time in America. So, and it was on communism. So I gave my thesis and then it came time to write it. If I didn't write it, I didn't get my master's. And I don't— I didn't touch type. I don't touch type today. It doesn't matter today because we're using computers. So I just go back.
I'm so sorry, Dennis, what is touch type?
Well, you don't look at the keys and you type. Type without looking.
Oh, okay. You do that? I, I probably do.
Yes, you don't even realize it. That's hilarious. I've never heard that term before. Really? Because it's so common to know it. Maybe that's the reason. Perhaps. Okay, well, it was a big deal and I didn't learn it. I type fast, but I type with a lot of errors, but it doesn't matter now because I just see a red line and I fix it. This is a great gift to me, the word processing. So believe it or not, I realized I can't type this thesis. It's going to take me too long. If I make one— if you made one error with a regular typewriter, you have to use a white— whiteout. Oh my God, it was, it was awful. So I didn't do my thesis for two reasons, but the other one— that was one, but the other one was the bigger one. I thought— I remember saying to myself, exact— again, again, the, these, the similarities are really eerie. So I said, wait a minute, I know what I— touch type or no touch type, I know what I want to write. I want to write a book. I want to write an introduction to Judaism. I don't want to write a master's thesis on Lenin. Nobody's going to read it other than the guys, the guys, you know, one of his associates.
It's going to be useless.
And he may not even read it. Exactly. So I have a choice: useless versus incredibly useful. But if I do the incredibly useful, I don't get a master's degree. And then I said to myself, so I don't get a master's degree. So what? I know. Has it affected me one iota in life? You think I would even announce it? I have a master's in international relations. Maybe if I had a PhD, but a master's, certainly it's, it's, it's a joke.
You have all helped to build MyPillow into the great company that it is today. Now Mike Lindell, inventor and CEO, wants to give back to you listeners. For a limited time, you will save $50 on MyPillow's percale sheets. That's right, $50 if you order now while supplies last. Please take notice that these are different from MyPillow's giza sheets. With an imported 250 thread count, these percale sheets are breathable with a cool, crisp feel and durable, yet still machine washable, plus easy to care for. Call 1-800-566-6745 and use the promo code Hartman, H-A-R-T-M-A-N, or go to mypillow.com and click on the radio listener square and use the promo code Hartman. This offer will not last long, so order now with the promo code Hartman at mypillow.com for this radio exclusive offer on percale sheets. Well, that was my debate, because not to brag, but I had very good grades in school, and if I wrote a thesis, I, I graduated cum laude, but I would have been able to graduate magna or summa cum laude. And I remember calling you and talking to you about it, and you said, no one knows if you grad— who cares?
Right. And you can't announce it because it sounds somewhat pompous. Oh, I graduated summa cum laude. Oh, in that case, I'll really take you seriously. It's quite enough to say I graduated Harvard. If you were the bottom of your class, you're right from—
I don't know why I And a listener wrote in that he started clapping when I corrected you.
You caused him to clap again. It's beautiful.
I think his name is Richard. Hello, Richard. Richard from—
So that's just enough. I mean, that has clout. There's no question about it. I understand it has clout. Anyway, so what I wrote at 25 was an introduction to Judaism. It's called The Nine Questions People Ask About Judaism. It is still in print.
I've read it.
And, and is the best— I think it's the most widely read English introduction to Judaism. So it was either that or a thesis on Lenin. Which do you think has been more valuable?
Yes, exactly right. Yeah, I, I, and I was struggling to come up with topics, and I thought, you know, by the way, you want to write a book?
I'm writing one now.
So can you tell people what it is? You know, I'm actually fascinated to hear your response to this. I'm a little hesitant to because I don't want anyone to steal my idea.
I think it's a good idea. I agree with you.
Maybe I'm too protective. I don't know.
No, no, no, no, no, that's fine.
I actually had some people ask me that recently and I just—
It's actually on Shoes the Puritans Wore. That's right. A comparison between Massachusetts and and, and, uh, New York.
Honestly, that would be kind of fun. I love— I'm telling you, I'm fascinated by the Puritans and the colonies. It's just—
you know when Julie had real envy of me? Oh no, what? No, no, it's beautiful actually. When I told you I met Paul Johnson. Oh my gosh.
Oh my God.
Sue and I spent a day in his apartment. Yes. So the next time you're at the house He paints as a hobby and he does well. And one— well, we asked him, can we have— can you sign one of your drawings to us? And he did. And it's up in the house. It's framed.
Is it in your dining room?
No, it— the lat— okay, this is my— I hope my wife doesn't hear this. I thought I knew where it is. I think it's in the entryway to the house.
Okay, I gotta just come over and see that. Oh, you do need to see it. I love Paul Johnson. He writes, I think, a lot like you. He's— it may sound bizarre to say of a 1,000-page book, but he's concise. But actually, that would—
I mean, no, no, I'm concise. I have 5 volumes of Bible commentary. It's concise.
But I'm saying it's, it's remarkable that I just called Paul Johnson concise when I'm reading a 1,000-page book. But to cover Columbus to Nixon in 1,000 pages, you have to be concise. He really just only tells you what you need to know, and he's just a phenomenal writer. I actually started reading this one, this book of his, because I just finished Modern Times, which is— which Alan— which Alan Estrin recommended to me because—
well, Alan thinks it might be the most important history book ever written.
Totally right. I said to Alan about a year ago because you know I am fascinated by this question. How did we get here? And even more reading this History of the American People, how did we get from these— I mean, really just the stock of people that we had in the colonies and in the beginning of America, the amount of courage and discipline they had, idealism, it just pales in comparison to who we are today. And so again, I just want to know how the hell did we get from that back to this. And I asked Alan if he could recommend any books, and he recommended Modern Times, and I think it does a phenomenal job of answering that question. I don't think Paul Johnson frames it that way. He doesn't say I'm answering the question of how liberalism really took hold, but that's what the book is about. That is exactly right. I cannot recommend Paul Johnson more highly.
Well, you, after you read this, you must read Intellectuals. His book, it's a small book about intellectuals.
I thought you meant like, you must read books by intellectuals.
I'm like, you know, I think I've been doing that.
Yes.
Oh no, no, it's called Intellectuals.
He also has, I think, A History of the Jews. Have you read that one?
Of course, yes. He really, he was unique. I had him on the show regularly. It was painful to, to, to learn that, you know, he was slowing down. He, he was a, he was a giant spirit. In the very beginning of PragerU, before we, we did anything really that sophisticated, I actually used either a cheapy little camera or a phone, probably a cheapy little camera. I don't think the phones were doing videos then at his home for PragerU. I have to ask Alan. I'd love you to see it. What is he like? He would— he is exactly what you would have imagined. A, a, a very, um, what's the word, polite courteous Englishman. I bet. Who loved life, loved painting, loved his garden, loved his wife, loved his books.
I would love to meet him.
No, no, him and Tom Sowell. That was a gift. And Clarence Thomas.
Those are my three. Clarence, Tom Sowell. I'll arrange all that. Oh my gosh. I have to say, walking into Dennis's house Specifically his office, which I'm sure everyone who's watching has seen at least a part of on the fireside chats. It is just, I mean, the photos and memorabilia you have, it's incredible. And one of my favorites is you have a picture with Clarence Thomas, who of course is one of my heroes.
And you have a picture— By the way, for the record, I don't seek these pictures. That's not my nature. But if I value a person like Clarence Thomas, it is wonderful to have had a picture with him.
Speaking of pictures, I want— Dennis, it drives me crazy. I'm saying this with love. Whenever we start this podcast, you have so many things on this desk. I mean, I'm one to talk. I have my computer and this note sheet right here. Yeah, I have more than that. Dennis, I don't know if those of you can see if the the, uh, the video that we're taking shows that Dennis has this very fancy camera right here. That's very fancy. It is very fancy. Yes. And Dennis takes photos of me sometimes. He takes photos of me even at Shabbat. He's taking photos of people around. And I said to Dennis, please don't ever show those to me. I'm such a woman in that way. I hate photos that are taken of me. Probably I'm probably in the wrong career. If that's the case?
It is an interesting question worthy of another time, and I'm not sure it's even something we should do, but maybe I'll do it on a male-female hour. What percentage of attractive women think they're attractive? I don't have an answer. I, uh, because I don't know a woman, and my wife's beautiful, and I know other beautiful women and none of them think they're beautiful. My wife is worse than that, she, but she was somewhat mangled by her father and self-image in regard to that. I mean, she doesn't even think she's that bright, which is pathetic. It's like a bad joke. You should see— No, no, she's brilliant. She simply is.
The emails she writes to us with news articles.
Well, I won't get started. You know my great line though, right? They come for Dennis and stay for Sue. Oh yes.
Or someone said to you, they come for you and they stay for Sue.
Yes. And I've adopted it. That's exactly right.
It's kind of true. Yeah, it is kind of true.
She thinks it's a joke, but it doesn't matter. So, but I would like to do that subject about what percentage of attractive women think they're attractive.
I can tell you that most of my girlfriends who are confident people do not like photos of themselves. Right, that's right. We are all— when we took graduation photos, my roommates— I have 5 other— I had— I was using the present tense. I have to use the past tense now. I had 5 roommates. There were 6 of us in this great suite my final year of college, and we took graduation photos the day before graduation, and it It was so funny. We would see them and go, no, no, my God, we look like Shrek or Fiona from Shrek, right?
Where guys basically, if his eyes weren't closed, use it. It's just, use it. I know. Yeah.
No, I mean, we, we have so many of them and they're very precious.
They're— no, no, I'm saying we don't have that. Men don't have that same battle.
I thought you just—
okay, no, no, no, of ourselves.
No, you guys don't have it. No, no, as long as my—
I said as long as my eyes are open, use the full photo.
That's funny. Well, God bless you.
I don't know why God gave us this, because women's looks are more important than men's looks.
And yeah, probably true.
It's just the way it is.
I mean, definitely true.
See, now even that— and with this I'll conclude, because this was such a pregnant thing you hinted at.
What an adjective, a pregnant thing.
Yeah, okay, fair enough. It's educative. A battle is in the leftist against reality. Oh yeah, that's what it amounts to. So when I say looks are more important with regard to females than males, they go crazy. Why did they deny that men and women are basically different? Why did they say— and when I was your age, they told me that. That's how I knew I wasn't a leftist. That was the issue. That and communism wasn't evil. Those were the two issues.
What a subject to end on, Dennis Prager. I mean, I want to ask you so many questions. We have to save it for the next podcast, but there are so things I want to say on this point. What perplexes me, and you've said this before, I can understand how a lot of people would not want to face reality. In many ways, the world is a very sad place, but our reality as Americans is pretty damn good. Why is it that this specific cohort of the most privileged people in the world are afraid of reality?
Tell people how to contact you.
My email is julie@julie-hartman.com, or you can just go on the website julie-hartman.com and the email's there. And it's Bell Hartman. H-A-R-T-M-A-N. And our— we have social— God, we should mention this at the beginning of the show, but we just dive right in. We have an Instagram and a Twitter. It's @DennisJuliePod. There's no "and" between Dennis and Julie. It's just Dennis Julie Pod. So please follow us on Instagram and Twitter. We have videos, little clips from our show that we post about 2 times a day. So that's how you should be spending your social media time.
And please send any of the Dennis and Julie ones to young people, you know.
Yes, especially young people. Yeah, especially. Right.
Anybody, anyone, but especially anybody. But especially. Right. It's hard for them to dismiss seeing how young she is. That's, that's— I'm totally aware of that fact.
Hopefully I will look this young forever. Or perhaps not.
So this is really gonna, uh, crack you up. I can't believe I'm saying this. So when I see women your age, I, I, I do a— I play a game in my brain. What will she look like at 60?
I actually do that. Oh God, what's your impression of me?
So I think I think you will be youthful looking for a very long time.
Well, I hope so.
From your lips to God's ears. But I don't think that all the time. Oh, I don't. Uh, and, and I feel bad sometimes where I think I could see— I don't— I wonder how, how she'll age, and it may not be that gracefully. But I, I think you're endowed with, uh, with that. Well, my mother's beautiful and she's in her 60s. Yes, there you go. That helps. Your dad's good-looking too.
He is, and he's young-looking. Yes, he's in his late 60s and he looks like he's in his early 50s. Yes. Who was I with?
Who— oh, so I'll end with my third ending. I love, I love it.
We try to end. Yes, we just— it's just so fun.
Just yesterday I was at a birthday party for a woman, her 90th 85th birthday party.
Oh, bless her.
Wow. So I gotta just say this, uh, her name is Sue Woznicka, for the record, and I know her for over 40 years because you know her son, and it's my dear, dear friend, and David. And I gotta tell you, and I have no reason to say this because especially giving her name So if you met her, I'd say, how old is she? You'd say in her 70s, and she's 95. Number 2, she not only looks great, she speaks with the fluency and vibrance and non-hesitation and even voice of a 50-year-old. So there's no explanation for how people age. It's like so much of life, there may just be luck. But I'm telling you, if you could sign an agreement— I look like her, talk like her, have a mind as vibrant as her at 95— you should sign that, that agreement.
I think a lot of it is about your outlook on life.
A lot. But it's also luck. I mean, it is just—
I—
so my fourth ending we should do is This is— this bothers my listeners more than almost anything I say, because I do believe there's a lot of luck in life, and they think it detracts from God if I say that there's a lot of luck. So that, that's a really good—
uh, yeah, we should—
that's a really big one to do. See, one of the great things about this for me, aside from my, my joy of being with you, which is very deep, as you know, but it is. I have been offering my ideas to people for all of my life, a long life, but I've never had a, a prolonged discussion of those things with anybody.
Oh, this is at least publicly so many reasons.
So this is even for people who are used to me This is a great thing.
When I guest hosted for you, I said that. I said, this is a— you see a different side of Dennis.
Yeah, inevitably. That's right.
Right.
Cheers to that. Cheers to that.
We'll see you next week.
Thank you, Sean. I don't even mean it, but it's in my contract. I have to say it. A man, babe, and everybody wants the same. Everybody wants the same thing.
More from Dennis
Life, Legacy, and a Dangerous Mission in the Soviet Union | Sunday Fireside Chat
