Cut Flower Ethics

Hey everybody, welcome to Dennis and Julie. It's a little silly for me to say I'm Dennis and she's Julie, but I will throw in the last names. Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. We have this ongoing weekly podcast where we basically explore life together, and it's, it's got to be unique just, just alone the age difference. There are a lot of male-female, I guess. I don't even know if there are a lot of male-female podcasts. It's an interesting question, but it's rare in so many ways. And I love it. And she is a very special person in my life. It's hard to believe, Julie, that we are only— we only know each other what now, 2 years?

Less, actually, because I first met you in August of 2020. So, oh well, yes, under 2 years.

Holy crow.

I know.

I feel like you've been in my life you know, a good chunk of my life. And then for you, much of your life.

Well, I was just the other day rereading Still the Best Hope, which is the book that brought me to you. It's your book on the American value system. And I remember because that was the book that not only brought me to you but brought me to conservatism. And as I was rereading it, I was brought back to the sense of awe I felt and just going, oh my gosh, I can't believe that this kind of thinker exists. And I had never been exposed to those ideas before. And then I looked at the COVID and I saw Dennis Prager and I went, oh my gosh, I know him and I love him and I have a podcast with him. How is this my life?

Well, I love you for that. That's such a beautiful reaction. In light of that, I'm curious. I have no idea what you'll say. If every student in your senior class at Harvard had to read that book, would any be affected?

I do think they would be affected, and, and that's why it kind of makes me sad, actually, because people won't even allow themselves to try something out. I think many— specifically the part about the American value system You explain that so beautifully and the harm of the left. The one part of your book where I do think no matter how many people read it, they would still dislike this part is the one on Islam. And it's specifically radical Islam that's taken hold for some reason.

That's the part you think they'd have the hardest time with?

Yes, because I can tell you.

Yeah.

I have gifted your book to many of my friends here, and a lot of their reactions are, we loved a lot of the book, he makes great points, but he oversimplifies Islam. I don't know why that's the— well, that's one of the topics that you can't touch.

They're really— they've been sort of inoculated into that position. Do you know, this would amaze them, do you know I had a public debate with Salam al-Marayati? He was the head of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, one of the leading Muslim activist organizations in the country. We had a public debate at Claremont Graduate School in Southern California. I believe it's on YouTube. And I said on a number of occasions, and there were a number of Muslims in the audience, I said, in my view, Islam has not been a religion of peace. He wasn't offended, he didn't walk out. We actually had dinner together afterwards. He had responses. I didn't find them persuasive. But the record and the theology are not of a religion of peace. And I simply made that point among others. I showed that the greatest Arab thinker who ever lived, Ibn Khaldun, considered by everyone, Muslim and non-Muslim, the greatest Muslim thinker who ever lived, said unlike Judaism and Christianity, We are a superior religion because we will kill to make converts. I mean, it's— and he's again the great, the most revered thinker in Muslim history, excluding perhaps Muhammad himself. Anyway, that's fascinating to me that that's the— that could be a stickler for people reacting to the book. Since you mentioned that the book is called Still the Best Hope, And if it affected Julie this much, it will affect a lot of people. It's a— I know, if I'm allowed to say this, how powerful the book is, and I wish more people read it, even though it was a New York Times bestseller. Okay, anyway, that, that's fascinating. So I want to talk to you about the reactions to abortion in general and to the leaked Supreme Court decision. I know you have a thought, so I'll pass it over to you for a moment.

Yes, we've been getting a lot of listeners, Dennis, writing in to my website, which is julie-hartman.com, and they've been asking us to talk about this and react to it. And one of the things that I want to do today is analyze some of the posts that I'm seeing on social media from a lot of my peers, even members of my own family reacting to the leaked document. By the way, before we even get into that, I just realized this now. One of, one of the really shocking things here is that people aren't, are consumed by the document that was leaked, but they're not consumed by the fact that something was leaked. Shouldn't we be more alarmed by that? That there was a breach of privacy?

Can you imagine if it were the other way around, that a left-wing ruling were leaked, that the Department of Justice would pursue these people to the ends of the earth and say that they were insurrectionists and the like? Look, for the left, this has always been true, you can do anything for the sake of the left, right? When you have all goodness on your side, cheating is completely moral. So anyway, go on.

Well, by the way, on that point I was giving a senior speech, as you know, Dennis, that hopefully will go on YouTube soon. 12 seniors at Harvard are selected to give speeches during the morning prayer service at Memorial Church. And I decided to give a pretty bold speech that people haven't heard before at Harvard on how much I love America and how saddened and scared I am by our lack of patriotism. And one of the things that I said in the speech, I was sort of rattling off reasons why we should be proud to be American. It's ridiculous that I even have to rattle off reasons, but I did. And one of them, I said, you know, we take for granted that we are the country where we can criticize our government and wake up the next morning and still know that our country will protect us. And I have to admit, Dennis, I, as I wrote that and as I said it, I sort of doubted if that's still true anymore. What is your reaction to that? Do you think maybe That's a bit dramatic of me to say, or do you think there really is a serious threat to that?

I could cry, actually. It was true for all of American history till the very recent past. There are, there are, for the first time in my life and probably American history, political prisoners in the United States of America. There are people who have spent a good chunk of, of their time in prison and still in prison for going into the Capitol on January 6th, and they've been in solitary confinement. Some have been beaten up.

When one lost his eye—

yeah, lost his eye, that's right. When you compare that to the people who did real destruction, real death during the riots of 2020, the vast majority, nothing was done to them. Nothing is done to murderers in Philadelphia, New York, San Francisco, Portland, LA, because of the prosecutors who, uh, who don't think that these things are particularly evil. And if you are a minority, in other words, generally speaking, Black or Hispanic, they don't want you to go to prison. As if that should matter. Evil is evil, whatever color or ethnicity it comes in. So I want you to know your reaction was unfortunately rational, right? So this is a first in American history.

And to bring it back to our subject again, that's why we're not seeing more upheaval in the face of a Supreme Court document being leaked, because people don't care because it's exposing conservatives.

Exactly. So go back to the abortion.

All right. Yes, let's dive in. So this is a post. I think if you, if you're watching it on YouTube, you'll see it here on your screen, but I'll read it aloud for those who are listening. This This is a post that I see constantly on Instagram. And it's someone holding a sign at a protest. And the sign reads, "You're pro-life until the baby is poor, transgender, Black, gay, Mexican, disabled, sick, etc." This is such— this is something that I see all— I mean, I know you see it all the time, Dennis. All of us conservatives see it all the time, that we somehow hate everyone that isn't white. The thing that I find to be so funny— well, not funny, but so ironic and interesting about this poster is that if you think about the people who are pro-life in America, they are the ones, of course, who are called white supremacists. But abortion overwhelmingly, disproportionately affects non-white people. It affects the people in that very poster, minorities, Mexicans, you know, African Americans, etc. And so what is it that 40% of all abortions that are conducted today are done on Black babies? It is a huge, huge skew. And so square the circle for me. If pro-life people are white supremacists, wouldn't they want abortion? Wouldn't they want it to, you know, as Margaret Sanger, who again is the founder of Planned Parenthood, she coined the term birth control to quite literally mean control people who were born. And one of Sanger's primary goals was to get rid of poor people, was to get rid of African American people. She was horribly racist. So that's what's so ironic about this poster.

I'm only quiet because I always debate before I'm about to say what I'm about to say, that people might think it's just a cute line. Or an attack line, but I don't mean it literally. But I mean it literally, and I say it constantly, that on the left— not for liberals, I always draw distinction between liberals and leftists— but for the leftist, lying comes as easily as breathing. So this sign, I want to analyze it with you. I have it in front of me, and you're right, I see it and I hear it constantly. You're pro-life until the baby is poor, transgender, Black, gay, Mexican, disabled, sick, etc. In other words, once the baby is born, you pro-life people don't give a damn about the baby if it's not white and healthy. So this is pure lie. This is a 100% lie. I would, I would actually stake my professional reputation on the following: that pro-life people, usually religious Christians of whatever religious denomination, pro-life people are far more likely to adopt people of these groups than pro-choice people are.

Hi, this is Julie Hartman from the Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman podcast. As many of you know, I'm in I'm in my final weeks of attending Harvard, and I'm very proud of my accomplishment. But I want to tell you about a great college in New York City, the King's College, which has a Christian liberal arts curriculum in the New York City's financial district, or you can take their classes online. Every program is rooted in a politics, philosophy, and economics core curriculum, which provides students with a framework for understanding the way that the world works and how it's influenced. Because of this, King's graduates are well-rounded, critical thinkers. King's faculty pride themselves in not sharing their opinions on topics, but instead teaching the historical context that roots the issues of the day. I guess you could say that King's College students come to earn their opinion. The faculty don't teach them what to think, but how to think. Find out how you can attend the King's College in person or online by visiting kc.edu today. Don't just go to college, go to King's.

I, I will tell you, I will tell a story that I've never, I've never actually said. It's one of the few things about my life I've never said publicly. So as you, Julie, know, I have two sons. One of them is biological and one is adopted, and you know that it's irrelevant to me, the issue of biology. But anyway, I, I have one of each. So my late wife, the mother of the second child who was adopted, she and I were looking to find if we could find a child to adopt in America. And we were put in touch with a woman whom we actually met, and then it was revealed to us that she was an alcoholic and a drug addict. And so with, with great heartbreak in me, So I had already sort of created an emotional bond with the child I never met. We, uh, we abandoned that plan, but I was always curious what happened. And an evangelical Christian couple in Canada ended up adopting the child, knowing that the birth mother was a drug and alcohol addict. It is— it has never left my consciousness. I always wanted to know what happened to that child. I only wish— obviously I wish him or her well, but I always thought about that Christian couple for whom it was irrelevant. Ironically, it turned out that unbeknownst to my late wife and me, my child was born to a drug and alcohol addict too. Yes, it shows you, uh, man plans, God laughs, the famous Jewish saying. Anyway, thank God things have turned out so beautifully, and he's now married as of a few weeks ago, as you know. But I— this notion that the pro-life people don't care about these, all these children once they're born, is a gigantic left-wing lie. They don't care about them in the womb or after the womb, right? It's the pro-life people who actually adopt them, take care of them, and provide for them. So it's just, it's just an enormous lie. Disabled, I mean, that, that's on the list. Oh, by the way, forgive me, I've talked too long. I just want to add your point. Your point is so critical. If pro-life people were racist, they would be pro-choice.

Exactly. Well, it's just an example of how the leftist worldview does not add up. And Dennis, that story that you just gave was very moving, and it doesn't shock me that a religious couple adopted that child. Let me tell you, as the sister of a disabled adult, the singular biggest factor that determines whether or not my sister's caretakers treat her well is whether or not they were— they're religious. Wow, that, that is it. It's not— I, I mean, it's really not really anything else than that. The best caretaker that we've ever had has been with our sister since I was born. She's like a family member to us, and she is a very devout Christian woman. And by the way, Dennis, she's a huge, huge fan of yours. And I don't know if you remember, but I brought her into the show, uh, this past summer when I worked for you, and it was the thrill of her life, the thrill of my life to bring her there because of what she's done for our family.

It was the thrill of Sean's life, by the way. He speaks about it regularly.

I remember, I remember Sean asked me, is that your mom? And this woman was very honored because she is, she is like an honorary mom. But yes, the singular biggest factor is whether or not the caretaker is religious, and it's just This is veering off a little bit. I do want to get back to this poster because I have another point to make, but there is such— if there's one thing I've noticed, even more than people here on this campus and just left-wing people who I've met in general, even more than they criticize conservatives, they criticize religious people, specifically Christians. There is such an aversion to religion. I actually had a debate with one of my friends about this recently. Where she said to me, "Religion creeps me out, and devout Christians creep me out." One of the things that she brought up was, apparently— I didn't know this, but apparently in the South or in more evangelical, hardline communities, people speak— I'm getting this wrong, but they sort of speak gibberish in church.

Yeah, speak in tongues. It's called speaking in tongues.

Yes. And my friend brought that up as if every single Christian speaks in tongues.

Well, I have a better answer. Forgive me. I don't care. I'm Jewish. I don't give a damn if they speak in tongues.

Right.

Compared to the gibberish that comes out of universities. The worst people to talk about gibberish are people on the left. I read the wokeism and the academies that comes out of the left intellectual arena, the incomprehensibility of the intersectionality of the matrix. And they're talking about tongues. At least the people speaking in tongues say, this comes into my mouth, my consciousness. I have no control over it. I don't even know myself often what it means. But the intellectual intelligentsia of the left believe it makes sense It's much more dangerous.

I know. Well, they just, they make such a caricature out of conservatives and out of religious people. And again, to talk about my senior speech, which next podcast I'm going to play, if you would like to hear it, Dennis, and listeners would like to hear it, I think it would be interesting to talk about. But one of the things that I, it was very important to me to put in that speech was I sort of again went through this list where I said, You know, those who say that the nuclear family is oppressive often grew up in two-parent households. Those who say that the police should be abolished still rely on them. And one of the things that I put in there was those who excoriate religion grew up in a society where our freedoms are predicated on Judeo-Christian values. And that is always my response to my peers who say that Christians are creepy or just religion in general is oppressive. I go, easy for you to say when you are living in this society that has been the beneficiary. You are the beneficiary of the Bible.

Exactly. Cut flower ethics is the term I've used it all of my life. I learned it in my 20s. We live in the age of cut flower ethics. The soil in which our ethical flowers have grown is religious soil. You take a flower out of its soil, you can look at it and think, look at that, it doesn't need the soil, but it withers and dies. That's the same with ethics. They wither and die, as we are now living through that perfect example with the subjugation of free speech. Can't get a more ethical issue than that. Nothing is preserved when you take it out of that soil. That's, that's, that's the world in which we live. This was a religious society. You go to Harvard, I would expect zero students at Harvard to know this. Until 1800, you had to know Hebrew to get a BA at Harvard because that really—

Yes, I am. Wow. Yeah.

Isn't that—

I'm writing that down.

Oh, yeah. I mention that all the time in speeches. It's dramatic. Yale's insignia is in Hebrew. Yale in Hebrew. And, and 99% of Yale students, unless they're religious Jews, they wouldn't have a clue, let alone to read it, what it's from. It's, it's the breastplate on the, on the Jewish high priest in Leviticus. It gives you an idea of how immersed they were, especially in the Old Testament. This is the only Judeo-Christian country truly that ever was created. This is truly Judeo-Christian. It's not just Christian. And that's just another example, the Hebrew insignia of Yale, and that you needed to know Hebrew to graduate Harvard till 1800. I mean, it's— this is— this was raised to be a religious society with a secular government, right?

And now people say that religion is primitive.

Well, all right, so now, so let me tell you, this is— since you, you raised the abortion issue, I, I look at the hysteria on the pro-choice side, and I know that the issue is, is not at all only about abortion. It is— I am convinced more than ever, and I watched this my whole life, but more than ever It's, it's ultimately about religion and God.

Yes.

The idea that I, a woman, should be accountable to anything above me— that's what drives them crazy.

Well, I think in addition to that, what I'm seeing in this poster is not just their attempt to demonize religion, but their attempt to demonize all kind of political opposition. And one of the questions that I have developed in the past few weeks, and I've asked it to people in debates. By the way, I feel like I'm always saying I was having a debate or a conversation with a friend, but I do. It's just while I'm here in this environment, I kind of crowdsource because I want to see the way that the people on the left think. Although, of course, I've been exposed to it my whole life. I digress. Basically, one of, one of the questions that I ask them now, let's say we're talking about abortion. I say, What kind of political opposition would you not try to destroy on this issue? What does a political— what does a political opposition here look like? Clearly, it's someone who's pro-life. But you say, you say to them, do you support freedom of speech? Do you support political opposition? They say yes. And then you go, OK, well, what would be acceptable to you as a political opposition on this issue? And they don't have an answer. I ask them that on almost every issue, and the real answer is subconsciously or consciously, they don't. They don't support any kind of political opposition.

What do you think of my theory that it's ultimately, I won't be told what is right or wrong, moral or immoral, by any other source other than me, myself, and I?

I think that that is That's very compelling. I would agree. I would say that a lot of it too, and I think it ties in with your point, is just a claim on victimhood, wanting to feel—

I always forget about that.

Well, I see all the time. I mean, because one of the things again that I ask people who get so, so bothered by this abortion issue, and by the way, you know, of course it's a very sad, regrettable thing. It's a very sad and regrettable thing to have to get an abortion. And it's a very sad and regrettable thing that, you know, that this whole sort of political movement exists. But I say to people, especially people my age, why do you get so angry? Like, are you going to really ever be in a position where you're going to have an abortion? Do you know anyone who's had an abortion? This has kind of become the political issue. It's monopolized our discourse. And again, I just, I can't help but think it has something to do with a claim on victimhood. I am a woman. This could affect me one day. So I'm now going to thump my chest and whine about it.

You said earlier, but I digress, and I wanted to chime in. That's fine with me. So I, My digression at this point is, is, is still on the road, but it's, it's a, it's an avenue exit off this highway for a moment. Talking about woman as victim, the moment I read this, and I read this today, the moment I read this, I thought, oh, I gotta tell Julie. This will, this will blow your mind. It's, it's, I can't help laughing. It, it's, it really has entered the realm of the absurd. Even though I just wrote a piece with 11 examples of modern absurdities, this would be a 12th. In Spain, so they now have in Spain, as we have, you know, maternity leave, that's, that's now de rigueur, it's expected in any Western society. Okay, so you you have a child, you get time off. All right. There is another, another time off for women. I don't remember what it was, but now they are pushing for 3 days a month menstruation time off.

Oh, gosh.

By law. By law, employers will be So I was thinking, look, I'm not a woman, so I'll, I'll pose the question to you. How many women want the entire workplace to know she's menstruating those days?

I have no idea.

I'm just curious.

I have no idea how to answer that. I mean, let me tell you, you know, Nancy isn't here.

She's menstruating. I It's beyond belief.

Menstruating, let me tell you, is not fun, right?

I agree, but it's also not generally— maybe I, maybe I'm just, uh, of another generation where it wasn't an announcement.

Of course. Well, I've noticed more and more it becomes an announcement, and well, but, but why? I don't like that. Why, you asked? Yeah, it's a really great excuse to get out of things. I remember when I was in 8th grade, we, uh, at my, um, at my middle school, we had a swimming test requirement. Um, and well, actually, no, we didn't have a swimming— we did a swimming test requirement, but we had a full semester of swimming, um, for our physical education program. And when it was a really cold day, of course we're in Los Angeles, so people listening who are from the East Coast or hating me right now for saying it— when it was 60 degrees and freezing in Los Angeles and people did not want to go in the pool— I went to an all-girls school— many people would use the period excuse. So to answer your question, it's a nice thing to get out of.

Right, so now men can get out of it because men menstruate.

Right. Another way that the— what did you say earlier? Leftist gibberish. Case in point: have you noticed that towels just don't seem to dry you anymore? They feel soft and lotiony in stores, but when you get them at home, they just don't absorb. Well, Mike Lindell at MyPillow wanted to change that, and he founded one of the best towel companies right here in the USA using USA cotton. They have proprietary technology to create towels that feel soft but actually work. They're all made again with USA cotton, and they come with the MyPillow 60-day money-back guarantee. Regularly, these things would cost $109, but now you can get a 6-piece set— 2 bath, 2 hand towels, and 2 washcloths— for $39.99. Just go to mypillow.com and click on the radio listener specials and get deep discounts on all of the MyPillow products, including the towels, if you enter the promo code Hartman. That's my last name, H-A-R-T-M-A-N. Or instead of going online, you can call 1-800-566-6745 and use the promo code Hartman.

So I only mentioned that because you were talking about— and I, I didn't think of it, I, I thought of it more in the, the religious terms of I don't want to be accountable to any other code than myself, and I still believe that But I think you're right about I have to continue the victimhood scenario. So I will ask you a question. This— I usually can relate to things that I don't like because we all have all sorts of parts to us, not all of them noble. But I must admit, it horrifies me actually horrifies me to think that I would ever be perceived as a victim. I actually— it's, it's a nightmare to me. What is the appeal?

Attention. I notice a lot that when, when people— the, the people who lean into their victimhood the most are the ones who want attention the most. Well, it's totally— it's entirely about— yeah.

And you think that includes, uh, the, the abortion issue?

Yes, I do. And I, I do want to make a point though that I'm talking about a very specific cohort that I've been exposed to, which is overwhelmingly privileged left-wing women who are getting very hot and bothered about this abortion issue. I can understand how people who are not as privileged and people who might be in the position where they would need an abortion, I can understand why they would get upset about this and I can understand why it would mean a lot to them. So again, I want to make that distinction. But certainly among, again, this cohort that I'm exposed to and the people who are posting these ridiculous graphics on Instagram, I do think it is about victimhood. I, and about trying to eliminate political opposition. If they were so concerned about poor women wanting access to abortion, they would actually take action. They would not just post on Instagram. They wouldn't just complain about it to their friends. They would take action or they would donate to a charity that funds low-income women having abortions. But they, but they don't. Because again, it's really not about that for them.

Yeah, I— the only slight hesitation I'd have on that is a lot of the wealthy also want abortions.

They're true.

So good point. I think, I think it bugs them. I go back to mine. I agree with you on the victimhood completely. I just want to say There's no other arena in life where they are being told you're wrong, right? And that's not tolerable for the secular left. I am my God. That, by the way, if I may, that's what I understand as the great analogy, metaphor, or whatever one wishes to use, or literal, I don't care whether how one takes it, the Garden of Eden story. When the serpent says to Eve, you eat from the tree of knowledge, you will be like God, and the Hebrew is knowing good from evil, or knowing good and evil, it's really determining good and evil. That's what, that's apparently what people want to do. They want to usurp God's determining of what is right and wrong. That's why they hate us religious. And I'm speaking for me in particular here, because I'm known as a public religious intellectual. And they loathe my constant note that if God is not the source of right and wrong, right and wrong are just opinions, which is so amazing because that's— every atheist philosopher in the past has acknowledged that. Right. They don't, they don't want to believe that. They want to believe I— look, that's the rhetoric. A woman in conjunction with her doctor will decide. And I always think, what does the doctor have? The doctor makes a medical decision. Since when does a doctor make moral decisions? I don't even— is right. They might as well say in conjunction with her taxi driver, right?

By the way, I want to discuss this issue of morality versus legality with regard to abortion. By the way, did I say that correctly, Dennis? With regard— remember last, last episode?

Let me tell you. All right, so I want everybody to know, uh, two things. One, I really love proper English. Two, Julie really loves to speak proper English, and it is a non-issue to point out if she ever fell into one of the modern traps, like 'in regards to.' 'Regards' is 'give my regards to my mother if you see her.' Yes, that's what regards means. So I told this to Julie off air, and that's what—

no, on air, Dennis, you told it to me on air.

Oh, I said it on air? Oh my God, I, I I'm embarrassed, but it shows you how much I admire you that I could correct you on air and you're thankful.

I am thankful. And by the way, last summer you also corrected me on air. I was also grateful at that time because I said over-exaggerate.

That's right.

And you're right.

Yeah, that's right.

Yes, it's redundant. But just for the listeners, I remember one of the first things that I heard Dennis say when I came to the studio and I would sit every day and watch you do your radio show and I would be on once a week. And I remember whenever listeners would call in, this is one of the biggest things that made an impression on me. And they would correct you. You would always say thank you. And I could see how genuine it was, how much you really wanted to learn and you wanted to know if you were wrong. And so I have that same view. People on the left, as we're saying now, they don't have that view. They do not want to be told that they're wrong. What was I just talking about? Oh yes, the morality versus legality issue. I have to tell you, Dennis, I'm a bit conflicted. And there's such a push nowadays to have certainty about things. I don't want to fall into that trap. I will raise my hand right now and say, I really don't know what my stance is on this abortion issue. I do think Well, what I do know is that I would absolutely not want to allow abortion past a certain number of weeks. Very often—

That's my position.

Yes. But I do, you know, I don't think that, that all of their arguments, and I know that you agree with me, are unfounded. I do think that unfortunately women get into situations where they may not be capable of carrying the child. And I do think that We do have a responsibility to think about what is going to happen to that child once it comes into the world. That is something I do think that we have to factor in. Unfortunately, abortion has sort of become a birth control mechanism. I hate that. I think it should be very rare and only in extenuating necessary circumstances, but I'm not convinced that it should be illegal. That being said, I have deep respect deep, deep respect for people who do think it should be illegal. I have deep respect for pro-life people. And I just, I think it's such a noble thing, even though I may slightly disagree with it, because, and the thing that those on the left don't understand, you know, they say, oh, pro-life people are about oppressing women. No, it's really actually not so much about control as it is about autonomy. Their, you know, motivating reason for being pro-life isn't that they want to control a woman. It's that they want to preserve the autonomy, the bodily autonomy of that child. So it's really the very opposite of what the left is claiming that pro-lifers believe. Anyways, that was a lot. Dennis, what are your thoughts?

That was a lot. I mean, there's so much. First of all, it's just dishonest, and I don't expect people on the left to be this self-aware. They're not self-aware as a rule. You really believe your rhetoric that first of all people should have autonomy over their body, then why would you compel vaccinations?

Right.

Here's another one. It was the feminists— you would not— you probably don't even know this. It might have literally been before you were born. Or just about when you were, but there was a whole hysteria over silicone breast implants that it was causing autoimmune diseases. And it was a scare. It didn't turn out to be true, and it was finally dropped. But it was the feminist left that called for its being banned. Women did not have a choice. In the view of the whole pro-choice world on what to do with their own bodies with regard to silicone breast implants. I'll give you a third example. It's the left that has pushed for the first time in the history of the Miss America Pageant that there not be any swimsuit competition. They didn't put this up to a vote of the, of the women who were the delegates from their states or candidates or whatever the term is. They didn't take a vote of the 50 women up for the competition. It would have probably been 49 to 1 in favor of the swimsuit competition. This was a fiat of the left. There will be no more swimsuit competition. You have no choice in the matter. It's a total lie that they believe in autonomy of the body. Only in abortion, and it's not honest because it's not her body. It's in her body. So we live in the age.

And there's another body that they're not respecting. Well, that's the body of the baby.

Well, that's it. That's exactly right. Which they have decided to call a fetus, as if that changes the moral dimension. But as I have said all of my life, nobody says to a pregnant woman, how's the fetus?

Right, right.

It's used as a term so that it deflects from the humanity of what's there. But by the way, we're so in sync. This is one of the reasons that I do this podcast with Julie. I— it's, it's preternatural how much we're in sync. I'd be very open with all of you. And, uh, when I did my video for PragerU on abortion and I only do 1/10 of the videos at PragerU, so it's relatively rare that I do one, but I asked to do the one on abortion, and I made clear at the opening, you'll be touched to know, I am not talking about legality, only morality.

Wow.

Furthermore, I never make one argument on that issue based on religion. It is all based on logic and science.

Yes, well, that's the benefit, I think, of the federal— of federalism and letting it go back to the states.

That's all it is. That it's another lie. If the Supreme Court leak is accurate, abortion's not going to be federally banned. The biggest states in the union overwhelmingly are going to keep it legal. California will pay for your abortion. They'll pay for you to come to California and get an abortion, right? So yes, if you're a poor woman in a conservative state, somebody will definitely raise the funds for you to take a trip, you know, 100 or 500 miles and, and go to an abortion clinic in a nearby state that has it. And no conservative would would say that that should be banned, right?

Well, the left— the left's response to that is that some people can't afford to go.

That's right. And as I said, believe me, there will be funds raised for every poor woman through either charitable groups or states.

Yes, I agree. I agree.

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Well, this is, you know, this is the fundamental obstacle I believe that we face as conservatives, because as you know, Dennis, you and I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can reach people. And it's just unfortunate because the, the left-wing position on its face is always going to seem better, more compassionate, more logical than the conservative position, because the conservative position, I think, always takes a few more steps of thought. So let's look at, let's look at this abortion issue. On its face, again, it just seems so— the right answer is so to allow women to have bodily autonomy, or, or people think that if Roe v. Wade is overturned, then that means that abortion will be legal because they don't take the extra few steps to go, oh, Let me understand the constitutional system. If Roe is overturned, it's not that it becomes illegal, it's that it goes back to the states. If you look at other issues, it falls into the same trap where, again, the left-wing position is always just going to seem better because, I'm sorry to say it, but it doesn't really require a lot of extra thought. For instance, minimum wage. You hear, oh, we should have minimum wage laws. And it seems, again, so obvious. Of course you should want people to have a baseline level of income. But then you take the extra few steps and you go, okay, well, actually, if we have minimum wage laws, then companies to offset the price of having to have minimum wage raise their prices in other categories or get rid of benefits or employ fewer people. So this is the obstacle that we face. And it's, it's hard, Dennis, because I don't necessarily blame people. A lot of people, their priority is not politics. So they're not going to take the extra few steps. It's not that they're stupid. It's that this isn't talked about and it's not their priority to really understand these issues.

The moment one asks, what are the consequences? One becomes a conservative.

Mm-hmm.

The moment you ask, how does it feel? You're on the left.

Yes.

That's, that's exactly right. Whatever the issue is, including minimum wage, the consequences is greater unemployment, is more restaurants going out of business because they can't afford it. To have a national minimum wage is a disaster because that means that in Alabama you have to pay a waiter or waitress the same as you do in California. Where of course the economic median is so much higher. The cost of living is so much greater. And so it's easier to pay because the prices on the menu are so much higher in California than Alabama. But as you say, that has to be thought through. But what they've done on the abortion issue is made the word abortion the issue. Had the issue been killing a child, then they would lose the rhetorical argument. Ending abortion is very different from killing a child. The rhetoric is completely different, but it is killing a child, and it is under the law. A pregnant woman who was shot, and if the baby she's carrying is killed, that person is prosecuted. Now, why is that person prosecuted but but the mother isn't. And I'm not saying mothers should be, but I'm just asking why, why it— why in one case the exact same thing happens. And, and it means that whether or not a child has any value is completely subjective.

Dennis, how do you see this working out. I mean, do you think that Roe will be overturned? Do you? I mean, I think a lot about if Roe were overturned, what would happen to our country? I think that there would— I fear that people would just erupt. Similarly, I mean, this is a little bit off topic, but I think that if Trump runs and wins in 2024, again, I'm sorry if I sound sensationalist or dramatic, it's just a fear I have. I sort of fear that we're going to descend into civil war or something really bad, because if people— people are so angry about these topics, so angry. And we saw with them in 2020, we saw people setting cities on fire, right?

Well, we saw the worst.

There's a precedent now.

We saw something worse than people being massively violent. And that was the cooperation of the government.

Right.

That's what was scary. That people will do bad things is inevitable. That the government will support them in doing bad things is unprecedented. So I agree with you. I think if Trump ran and Trump won, there would be massive violence. And, uh, if the government didn't suppress it, and if the government— the government then would suppress it, it would be Republican governments. And then that would create more violence because people would say, oh well, it's the Republican dictatorship that's doing this, right? That would be the New York Times and Washington Post position.

Right.

I look, I fear for your generation. What can I tell you? But what are you going to do? It's the human condition. That's why I have this upcoming debate. I can't believe that anybody would debate the other side, but I'm debating, of all people, an Orthodox rabbi, which is the shocking part to me. Dennis Prager, who says that human nature is innately good. You just look around. I don't, I don't understand how anybody could come to that conclusion. Anyway, yes, so I feel blessed that I was in an America. I experienced a country, Julie, that you have not experienced. What can I tell you?

I know, I know.

And you know that— I'll just tell you one cute thing, please, please, that you'll get a kick out of this. To give you an idea how different my America was than yours, my mother would send me to the candy store a few blocks from our house. That's what we called it in New York, where you, you know, you bought all sorts of little stuff. And she would send me to the candy store you know, a 7-minute walk from the house when I was about 9 to buy her cigarettes.

Wow, that is something I couldn't even conceive.

You're, you're carded today if you're 40 years old.

I know. Well, you know, my people who are older than I am, they talk about things like the Rotary Club or the Kiwanis. And I have no— I remember I said to my uncle a few years ago, what the heck are you talking about with this Rotary Club? And he was just dumbfounded.

That's right.

And you know, Dennis, I, I told this story to you off the air, but I think it, it shows, um, unfortunately, the rot in this country. Um, it's such a small thing, but it, but it really is not. So a few weeks— or what was this, a week and a half ago when the last day of classes, Harvard has this tradition where they let the senior class go back to the freshman dining hall to have a dinner. Because the way Harvard is structured is all freshmen eat in the same dining hall, and then in your final 3 years, you're sorted into upperclassmen houses, and each of those houses has a dining hall. But freshman year, you're all together. So when you're seniors, it's this really nice thing that you get to go back. And the tradition has been, and I learned this freshman year, that you go back and you're supposed to have dinner with your freshman entryway, your dormmates, the people who were in your, in your section of the dorm. And there are— it's a group of about 40 students and you have a proctor and you're all supposed to come together your senior year. And it's kind of like a nostalgic last hurrah moment. I was so excited for this. All semester. And I went to the dining hall that night and I'm trying to con— we have a group chat and I'm trying to contact the members of my freshman dorm and the proctor and no one's responding. And I go in and very, very few of the freshman entryways met. I think I saw maybe 3 or 4 of the entryways coming together and everyone else just had dinner with the their roommates or their friends that they—

how do you explain that? I would have, I would have died to do that for nostalgic reasons.

Oh, I was so— right.

So how do you explain it?

I think that although nowadays the left likes to talk about community and use the, the diction of collective and coming together, there really isn't a lot of community I don't think there's any respect anymore for tradition, for true community. And that, that's why I brought this up, because I mentioned the Rotary Club. There used to be these kind of little groups, from my understanding. It's funny for me to say there used to be. I have no clue. But I can get— I've learned that there used to be these. It used to be much more community oriented, you know, the role of the church and the role of your charity organizations and your Rotary Club. And the Rotary Club. And now we don't have that. And it's really bled into our culture in a lot more ways than we think. And we see it—

the only communities are political communities.

That's right. That's exactly right. The only communities are political ones. And what was even more frightening to me was I asked some of my peers, I said, don't you want to have dinner with your freshman entryway? I mean, this is so This is so great. And many of them were just— they have this bizarre resignation where they're like, I don't really care, right?

Boy, is that true.

Yep.

Well, Dennis and Julie, folks, tell everybody about it, the Dennis and Julie podcast. I, I consider this one of the most valuable things I do, just Me too, Dennis.

You know, someone said to me the other day, I can't believe that you have a part-time job while you're in college. And I said, a job? This is the most fun I have. There's nothing that's job-like to me about, well, about this. It's just pure joy and pure fun. So thank you, Dennis, and thank all of you to listening. Thanks to all of you, I should say, for listening. See, Dennis, I can correct myself. When I mess up.

Oh, I, I do that all the time to myself.

Yes, please write in to me, everyone. My website is julie-hartman.com. Please write your questions.

H-A-R-T, not H-E-A-R-T.

Yes, H-A-R-T-M-A-N. And please tell us what you'd like us to discuss. Many of you wrote in about the abortion topic. We had a great time discussing it. We hope you enjoyed it. And we will see you next week. By the way, next podcast will be my last podcast as a college student because then I graduate and you join me post-college.

You're only man-made, and everybody wants the same. Everybody wants the same thing.