Dennis & Julie: Getting High on Life

Hi everybody, I'm Dennis Prager with Julie Hartman, and it is known as Dennis and Julie. We did not spend a lot of money on figuring out the name of our podcast. Dennis and Julie is not, shall we say, some original.

Hey, babe, a conventional name is better than a bad name.

It's, it's probably even better than any name because it's what it is. It's Dennis and Julie, but it is what it is. And I like it.

By the way, maybe we should call this the Messy Desk Podcast because we right now have 3 spoons 2 rubber bands, a Wall Street Journal article, uh, a lot of papers, and pen ink.

I just want you to understand, folks, we're working with 3 other men and myself. Yes, there's one female in the entire operation, and that is the reason this was even noted. Men can live in a mess. It's one of our great traits.

Great traits.

Great traits.

Why? Why is it a great trait, Dennis Prager?

Because we know the ultimately important things in life: sports, women, and fountain pens. Yes, exactly. And, and, okay, let's, let's continue. But it is, it is fascinating. It is true that it would take a woman to have noted what a mess it was, generally speaking. A guy who would note what a mess it was is usually gay, which is, uh, for those watching on the left, it is not an insult. It's not intended as an insult. It is not even an insult.

It is just a compliment, actually.

Yes, exactly correct. Yep, it's a, it's a given.

What I will say before we move on from this is I love working with men. I had actually a leftist relative, female relative in my life, tell me that she loves working for men more than she likes working for women.

Did it bother her?

Women. I'm sorry.

Did her self-observation bother her?

No, actually.

Because it conflicted with—

She said, she acknowledged, she said, look, I know that this may be an unexpected comment from me and I probably shouldn't say this, but But working for men is so much better than working for women.

Okay, I'm very happy you said this.

It's true. Look, it's true.

No, I'm happy for other reasons, which we'll get to on another broadcast. Each sex has its big issues and its big advantages. That is why it's a— the ideal is a male-female bond. They bring different things to the table.

I am determined to be a good female boss one day. I don't want to succumb to the moodiness or the favoritism that most female bosses exhibit. I'm going to be the anomaly.

Good. It's a beaut. It's actually a beautiful aspiration. Good luck. No, no, I, I didn't mean good luck in the sense it'll never happen. Men are easier to work with.

That is correct, because you're not moody.

I don't— it's an interesting question why. There are men who are moody.

When I come into work every day, they bring their mood to the office. I know what I'm getting every single day with you and with them.

That's right.

Every day they're the same.

That's a great way of putting it. Okay, it's a great subject. We did an intense amount of male, female, and the last one. So I have a, a big one that you raised with me off the air, and it struck a chord in me because of my son. So I have two sons, you know, but not everybody listening or watching knows. And my younger son, his, uh, his mom, my ex-wife, who has since passed away We adopted him at birth. Literally the day he was born, we adopted him. We did not know that his birth mother was a meth addict, and that played a role in his life. And he became addicted to alcohol and ice and some drugs, and he And it was bad. It was a bad scene. It was a tragic scene. And thank God, and I, I don't know what else to say other than thank God, because this was right before fentanyl started killing so many young people, including a friend of mine who's had a spectacular son, and just poof, fentanyl did it to the son. Yes, to the son. Yeah. Anyway, so my son is fine. He's sober. So he said to me a very interesting thing because I, I have never been addicted and I had to learn and I learned an immense amount. You know what his biggest fear when he was becoming sober and he used, he actually used this term and then when you raised it just recently, it really triggered this memory. He said, "It's hard for me to believe that there is such a thing as sober fun. I picture sobriety as boring." Basically, I'm now putting words in his mouth. And I realize that represents a lot of people, not just addicts. The thought that if you're sober, and in the broadest sense exercise self-control, you'll have a boring life. Let me give one example, and then obviously I want you to explain to people why you raised the term with me independently of my son. So people think the following. I remember so vividly in high school and in college, especially college, I would say college, and my peers would say to me, oh man, huh, You think sex is, is something? You try it, um, when you're high. And I swear to God, I remember my reaction. Wait a minute, sex is not exciting enough? You need a high? And that's when it— my eyes were opened to this eternal search for the more exciting. So what prompted you to raise that term?

So I wanna set the context first for the audience. I was over at Dennis's house last week, uh, to have dinner with Dennis and his wife Sue and Robert Florczak, who I had on Timeless. He's this, he's so interesting. He totally, he can make anything interesting.

Correct. That is correct.

By the way, shameless plug for the, uh, what's the, what's the episode called, Sean? The Art of Art, right? We— I had Robert on and I just asked him, what are 5 paintings that you think everyone my age should know? And we just talked about art, no politics. It was great. Anyway, I was over at Dennis's house and before dinner we were sitting by your computer, or actually I came over to your computer to see what you were doing, and Dennis was on the internet looking at fountain pen colors. Remember that? Inks. Inks. That's right. Inks. Sorry. It was so, it was marvelous. I have to say the most beautiful colors of ink. What's the website called so people can look at it if they want?

Oh, anywhere. Just put in Fountain Pen Inks and anything will come up.

And I, I just, I don't know. I, I wanted to see what he was doing and I pulled up a, a chair and we were there for an hour just looking at, at, uh, the beautiful array of colors, uh, of the, the ink. And then you showed, we, we moved on into music and then you showed me who's that? That— what— the, um, young pianist.

Oh, Yuja Wang.

Oh my gosh, this, this young pianist, it's first of all, and second of all, she's a hoot. She goes into these concerts and wears these like mini skirts, truly mini. Yeah. So anyway, we were just— it was really, really fun. And I turned to Dennis in the middle of it and I said, my God, you really embody sober fun. And I said, I don't know if I've really mastered having sober fun. And it's something that I've been trying to work on. Obviously, I just graduated from college about a year ago. And in college, there was no such thing as sober fun. I mean, anytime you were having fun, you were out at a party drunk. Actually, I'm going to amend that statement. I did. I have a lot. I had a lot of sober fun in my suite with my roommates. On a regular school night. But when you blocked off time to have fun on the weekends, it was all— it always involved drinking. And when I graduated from college, I, even though I'm unlike Aaron, thankfully, I'm not an addict, I worried if I was going to be able to find sober fun because college was just a drinking palooza. And I will say sometimes it's hard because for me at least, drinking helps me relax, especially because I'm very hard on myself and I always have that voice in my head that's saying, you're not working hard enough, you're not doing this, or you messed this up. So drinking helps me quell that voice. But then I look at you and you're totally relaxed when you're looking at fountain pen ink. And I just, I kind of marveled at it because you have trained your brain to find relaxation without the help of a substance. Our listeners know that we represent two very different generations. One comes from a time of the American dream and the other comes from a time where few Americans believe it's possible anymore. But the American dream is still possible and investing makes it easier. That's why I'm excited to introduce you to our friends at monorail.com, America's investment app. The investment app is made by patriots for patriots. Monorail loves America and their true conservatives who will help you invest in companies that love America too. They take the guesswork out of investing. Link your bank account to the secure Monorail app and start investing with as little as $5. Monorail offers fractional shares in high-priced stocks so you can be a big player without the big price tag. It only costs $3 a month, or save money and pay just $17.76 a year. Catch that, $17.76 76. I told you they love America. Pro-investment, pro-American money movement, and pro-American dreams. Go to monorail.com, download the app today, or go to monorail.com to get started. Was that an adequate context giving?

That was terrific. So I, this is a, I gotta thank you because you have given me a really big topic to discuss on my Happiness Hour.

Oh, it's huge.

And in general, sober fun. I want you to know though, I don't take a lot of credit for it. I wish I could. My nature never sought to escape life to have fun. I've had so much fun in life that the thought that I needed some artificial ingredient to make it fun, it didn't even occur to me. It actually occurred— if it was raised, I thought, what are you talking about? I mean, I was— when I was in college and after college, and I would hear these lines from my peers, oh man, sex with, uh, with, um, you know, with marijuana or heroin or whatever. I don't know what, whatever drug, or drunk, or And I would think, what do you— I just thought it wasn't a noble thought. It did not come from my superego. It came from my ego or my id. And I just said, what? To myself, or sometimes I may have even said, you gotta be kidding. Sex is not enough fun? You need an additive? Whether it's alcohol or marijuana, it would blow my mind. Putting obviously sex aside, it's true for everything. And you opened my mind and, and, and it made me think of another memory. A dear friend of mine, this many years ago when I was the director of this institute that brought me out to California in my 20s. So there were some issues at this institute. There was a lot of tension between me and the board of directors, and he came into my office and And he saw me looking through my stamp collection, one of my many, many hobbies. And, and he said to my other friend, other very close friend, I really envy Dennis, his ability to tune out with hobbies.

It's amazing.

I wish I had it. And I thought, when you have something, you assume everybody has it. People with perfect pitch think everybody has their perfect pitch. What comes to us naturally, we assume comes to everybody naturally. Obviously, I've lived long enough to know that that is a sort of gift in my nature, because hobbies have played such a role in my happiness. And that's my drug, in effect. That's my tune-out from the world, is my hobbies. And so I have to ask, is it available to everybody? You acted like, oh, it's an achievement of mine.

I think it is.

Yeah, but I don't think of it as an achievement.

I know you don't. I could see that when I said that to you as we were looking through the ink, you kind of had a moment where you were like, oh yeah, huh, I guess I do have sober fun. In other words, you just—

Right.

Again, you didn't even consider it to be something of note. But you, but, um, I think it is. I, I do. And, and maybe it's not for, for those in, in your generation, but certainly in my generation, we, there are not many people. I, we were just, I was just talking about this with, uh, Seb Gorka recently on, on his show that we don't have hobbies.

That's right.

Sober hobbies.

That, no, that's the, that's right. I am now going to call hobbies sober fun.

So that's what it is.

It's so important. That's what they are.

And you know, and this is something that I need to work on. You are, even though you, you joke that you're not, and I hope you're joking 'cause it's ridiculous that you would ever think this, you joke that you're lazy. You work very hard and you work all the time. But what I admire about you is, as you said to me recently, you take a vacation every day.

Mm-hmm.

You, you take an hour or two guilt-free and you look at audio equipment or you, you know, play with your camera or you look at the inks. And I can't do that. I feel guilty when I take an hour to chill. And so what the reason why, at least for me, that I have sometimes, you know, wanted to have a glass of wine to, to relax is because again, the glass of wine shuts up the voice in my head that's telling me, that's saying to me, really, you're, you know, taking an hour break right now. In this hour you could be researching XYZ for your show. But, but what I have realized in the past few months, as you know, I'm really, really trying right now, especially while I'm still young in my early 20s. I'm really trying to develop good habits because I know if I do the work to develop them now, later in life it will pay dividends. But I'm realizing that I need to work hard. It sounds paradoxical because relaxation shouldn't require hard work, right? But I need to work hard to allow myself to relax without having the substance handicap me. And that's what the substance does. It's actually an apt verb I used. I handicap myself because then I think, oh well, I'm a little tipsy. I couldn't have done work anyway, so might as well just have fun now.

That explains a lot.

Yeah.

So Sean is asking in my earphones, Have social media played a role in killing hobbies? Oh, of course, there's no question. I, I didn't think of that, but there's no question. I mean, I was not the only kid my age who had hobbies. It was, it was a given. Kids would— I mean, my brother, he loved building, uh, you know, scale model ships or airplanes where you put pieces together and glue them together. My grandson is huge on fishing. He— that's a sober— that's sober fun for him.

And it's not digital fun. That's another thing that I admire about your choice of sober fun. I mean, yes, you were looking online at foundation.

It's not a video game.

It's not a video thing. And you, you love photography, even your audio equipment. You sit there in the room with your eyes closed and just listen for hours. To the extent— by the way, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I think I cut you off.

No, no, not at all. Go on.

But I'll just say that the extent to which people my age have hobbies, most of them are digital. Men play video games, for instance, with other men.

That's right.

I even— my hobby, and I kind of hate that I'm calling this a hobby, but Real Housewives is my way of relaxing. That's a TV show. That's not great. I should have—

not bad either. No, no, tuning out with nonsense is fine. I mean, you work so hard, you deserve it. I— it's a non-issue, but it's not a hobby. That is correct. I think that, that there is another factor, and you're going to love this because I know you didn't think of this, and I didn't even think of this till now. So here it goes. The, the amount of homework given to kids today—

oh, totally—

doesn't allow for hobbies. Oh God, it's all damn, and I emphasize damn, school. One of the reasons I developed as well as I have in, in a number of areas, and in talking now intellectually, I forget you know, character that people will assess for themselves, but is that I did no homework in high school, which blows people's minds. I did, I mean, literally none. But I'll tell you what I did do. I started to teach myself Russian. I taught myself music. I mean, I learned from a teacher how to read music and how to play an instrument, but I taught myself a lot more and learned so well that I could read orchestral scores and ultimately conduct orchestras. Anyway, I did what I wanted. I went to bookstores in Manhattan from Brooklyn, and I just looked at book, book, and book. I, I developed, and I had all these hobbies in the electronics world. My big hobby was shortwave radio. We've never even talked about that. I listened to foreign broadcasts and wrote them letters and got back mail. I got mail from Congo. I'll never forget when the Congo came. Dennis Prager, 1725 East 27th Street, Brooklyn, New York, 11229. I was so excited. I looked at it.

Oh, I bet.

Oh, and Radio Moscow.

I'm getting such a thrill. Listen, that sounds so fun.

It was total fun. I had so much fun in high school, I can't tell you. But, but the reason was I didn't take high school seriously. You can almost not do both of them. What hobbies can you have if you're doing 3 hours of homework?

3 hours? I did like 7 hours.

Are you serious?

Oh yes. Oh yes.

Wait, what time did you get home?

5 o'clock.

And you would work till midnight?

Totally. Past to 2 or 3 AM every single day.

And you were not exceptional in doing that?

No, I mean, and I went to a very academically rigorous private school. So this is— I understand that this may not be everyone.

I thought I was exaggerating when I said 3 hours.

No, I wish. 3. If I had 3 hours of homework a night, maybe the one time a year. Oh my God, it was like a vacation. It was so fun. Then at 9 o'clock, I could get into my bed and watch Gossip Girl. It was like the best. It's a vacation. Yeah. No, my, I mean, well, all right.

So, so what a terrible combination of social media, you have no idea, and idiotic school policies. Uh, they force sober fun out of your life.

Yes. And well, I, so with my upbringing, my upbringing was so regimented that I think that's in part why I struggle now to allow myself to have time off because I'm, I'm used to just constantly working and I have this weird idea that I'm cheating if I'm taking time off, or I'm— the better word is I'm slacking. This year you've got goals, and Factor is here to help you achieve each and every one of them. Fuel up fast with ready-to-eat nutritious meals delivered straight to your door, leaving you time and energy to tackle everything on your to-do list. Achieve and maintain your 2023 fitness and diet goals with Factor. Get America's number one ready-to-eat meal kit and start saving time, eating well, and living your best year yet. Too busy to cook? With Factor, skip the trip to the grocery store. Skip the chopping, prepping, and cleaning up too. Factor's fresh, never frozen meals are ready in just 2 minutes, so all you have to do is heat and enjoy. No matter your lifestyle, Factor has delicious, flavor-packed meals to help you live it to the fullest with keto, calorie-smart, vegan, and veggie protein plus options on the menu each week. Prepared by chefs and approved by dietitians, each meal has all of the ingredients that you need to feel satisfied all day long. With 34 chef-prepared, dietitian-approved weekly options, there's always something new to try. Plus, you can round out your meal and replenish your snack supply with an assortment of 36+ sweet smoothies, juices, and more satisfying add-ons. Want to cut back on takeout? Get Factor instead. Not only is Factor cheaper than takeout, but meals are ready faster than restaurant delivery in just 2 minutes. Eating vegan or veggie is a snap with Factor because each meal is prepared by chefs and approved by dietitians. You know that your Factor meal has all of the ingredients that you want and nothing that you don't. And if you're looking to mix it up, you can add a protein to select vegan and veggie meals each, each week. Get Factor and enjoy clean eating without the hassle. Simply choose your meals and enjoy fresh, flavor-packed meals delivered to your door, ready in just 2 minutes. No prep, no mess. Head to factormeals.com/julie50 and use the code JULIE50 to get 50% off your box. That's code JULIE50 at factormeals.com/julie50 to get 50% off your box. So, but I want to also address people who may have not had the, the regimented upbringing that I had because that's the majority of people my age. I understand I was in, in rarefied environments. I actually, I was talking about this on my show Timeless a few episodes ago and I had a young woman write into me and say, Julie, I love when you talk about, you know, your, your educational experience and, you know, how, how people were so obsessed with getting into college that they didn't have hobbies. You know, I always say, how does having an interest in photography help you get into Harvard? It doesn't. You can't put that on your application. You, people my age, at least in my high school, would only do things that they could put on their college application. Anyway, the girl wrote to me and she said, I go to public school in Florida and it is the total opposite. It sounds like at your high school people were too motivated and that's why they didn't have hobbies. At my high school, people aren't motivated enough and that's why they don't have hobbies. They don't do their homework. They don't show up to class. After school, they go to the football field and smoke pot. And I think on both sides of the spectrum, even though they're, they're certainly opposite, it reflects a kind of deadening overall where, and perhaps the overlap is, is the fact that we don't really have role models anymore of full people who live healthy lives and have hobbies like you and have sober fun. But on both sides, maybe for different reasons, we don't have hobbies, but it's a deadening.

The deadening is the pot. Well, yes, I, I, I've said this on the air since I've been broadcasting. My hatred for marijuana.

Yeah, we talked about this.

I, I, and I, I'm totally vindicated. It is a goddamn item. And I am sorry if I offended anyone. I hope goddamn's marijuana. Okay. That, that you don't know how many conservative parents defend it. When I asked, would you rather your child smoke weed or cigarettes? Every parent calling my show virtually. I've done this now.

Said weed.

Everyone, including religious Christian conservative parents.

We talked about this, I believe, 2 episodes ago, so I won't repeat myself. But I know, I know I said then, and I'll say it again now, I have seen pot ruin people's lives.

Oh, of course.

Ruin.

Cigarettes don't ruin people's lives. They cut a third of the user's lives short later in life. That's true. It's a real danger. I agree to that.

And look, it doesn't have to be an either or.

Of course not. But I, you know, you like my either or question.

I do like the either or.

It lets people establish. By the way, I've asked it in another way. Would you rather the pilot of your jet going, going across the country to be while, while, while flying, would you rather him have a martini or weed?

Do you think those parents respond that way because they, they never smoked weed?

Because, no, I'll tell you why. Because health uber alles. We have a new religion in the Western world, health. It's a religion.

Well, that makes no sense because marijuana is uncompletely—

No, no, no. Marijuana affects your brain.

Yes. That's what I mean.

You can live till 120 with marijuana.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Whereas cigarettes, they may cut your life short.

Yeah. But affecting your brain is no small side effect.

It doesn't matter to them.

I mean, I've seen people like truly become incapacitated. Oh, I sure have.

Well, of course, the whole point of it The point of it is to be in contrast.

And become crazy. No, I've seen, I've seen people become nuts.

Oh, okay. Well then you know better than I.

When they get off the marijuana because of the— Really? Yes. Oh yeah. Because of the induced psychosis, which is increasingly a problem and reported in people's lives.

Well, and, and it's way stronger today than when I was a kid.

Tell me about it. I know. Yeah, it's true. Anyway, uh, what, oh, I'm sorry.

By the way, I, I wanna just develop that theme for a moment and then go back to the extremes question. The, The religion of health, which I, I have said health uber alles using the fascist German term Deutschland über alles, Germany above all. And you just fill in the noun instead of Deutschland, instead of Germany, and then you know what people worship. And, uh, health, because health uber alles, which I discovered many decades ago, using this example of cigarettes versus marijuana. That is what allowed people to give up all freedom during COVID Oh yeah, you want me to lock down? You want me to close my church? You want me to close my business? You want me to wear a mask on my 2-year-old— put a mask on my 2-year-old kid who can hardly breathe with it on? Of course I will, because health uber alles.

Right.

That common sense is dead, decency is dead, freedom is dead, because health uber alles, over all. And I'm obviously passionate about it. I, I have been passionate about this for at least 30 years. Health is a god. And, and I don't— I, I, it's a— the irony, it is produced by secularism, because, because if there's no God All you have is this life, so you better live very long, as if you won't die. You know, you be healthy enough, you won't die. I mean, it's almost idiotic. But by the way, I'm pro-health, just for the record. Of course. I'm pro-health, but it's not uber alles. It's not above all. I'll take freedom above health.

Right. I'm glad that you brought up secularism because if I'm, we can go back just for a moment to the extremes that I presented. In addition, you know, I said that the, the common theme between both was that we don't have good role models. And I really think that's true. At my super, you know, competitive, academically rigorous high school, the teachers were, you know, wonderful. I loved my teachers, but they didn't exactly encourage us to have balance in our lives. And then maybe for the girl who wrote to me at her high school, she also perhaps doesn't have good role models of people who are encouraging hobbies or balance. But I actually think even more than that, the greater overlap is secularism. I actually had a friend from college say to me recently, she goes, you know, Julie, sometimes when I hear you on Dennis and Julie, you kind of blame a lot of things on secularism. And by the way, guilty as charged. I think that so many of our problems today come from that. And I think the hobby, or the lack of sober fun issue is no different. And I realized that as I became more religious, because when you become more religious, you have this sense of enchantment about the world and wonder and awe that makes you appreciate life around you more and want to participate in it. And I think without that, you don't You, you don't want to engage in life as much. For instance, it may sound like a leap, but as we were sitting there looking at, uh, fountain pen ink colors, someone listening to this right now, right, may think that sounds like the most boring thing in the world to look at ink, right? But we both kind of have this— well, certainly both of us are religious, but we have this sense that That's a part of the beauty, the divine beauty of life. Like we're looking at those gradations of color.

How could color be boring?

Well, but Dennis, see, it's a— I'm glad you just asked this because it proves my point. A lot of people do think color is boring, right?

They think everything is boring if you're sober.

Well, and if you're secular, because, oh, of course we have color because science produced color. But if you have a religious worldview as we do, you look and you— and this in G.K. Chesterton, by the way, Dennis Prager argues this so much more eloquently than I'm saying it in his book Orthodoxy, which I've probably mentioned on this show like 80 times, but I love the book. You have a sense of color was created by God and what a gorgeous thing, what a gorgeous part of life. He could have made the world in black and white, but he made it with all these shades of color and look at them here on this screen in fountain pen ink form. I think having a religious worldview allows you to appreciate life. Which in turn makes you want to participate in it, and then you can have more sober fun.

Um, look, do you agree? Well, look, I'm the one who just now raised these— the secular issue, right?

You did.

It, it— secular, you know, my equation: secularism plus affluence equals boredom.

Yep.

And boredom leads to evil, always.

And boredom leads to wanting an escape through substances.

That's right.

Because substances make life exciting. When again, when you have a religious worldview, because life isn't exciting, you— when you—

why isn't it exciting to be with friends? Why isn't sober fun having people you really like over for dinner?

I really think the key to sober fun is having an appreciation for life. And recognizing that the everyday things that you take for granted are opportunities to experience life and not just boring things that we have here, like friends. People just think, oh, well, friends is just a part of life. They don't think, wow, how lucky am I?

I have said on my Happiness Hour for decades, You should date for friends like you dated for a spouse. And now I— and I turned out unfortunately quite right, because I am stunned to read the number of people who don't have close friends.

Really?

Oh, so you're stunned too? Read about it.

Where?

Anywhere. Just say, does— does— how many people do not have friends? I mean, Google something like that. And especially men.

Have you found that in your human laboratory? Your—

yes, that's how I know about it. So men would call me up, say, I don't, I don't have— I have buddies, you know, I go to, I go to, you know, I don't know, hunting with or fishing with or baseball games, but I don't have, you know, I don't have really close friends.

Why do you think that is?

I wish I had an answer to that because you are asking Someone who knew in 6th grade that I wouldn't last in life without friends. I mean male friends. I, you know, I never sought a female friend. Isn't that interesting? I only sought male friends.

I, I tell you, we're, we're very similar. It's been the same with me.

Well, I think that's healthy.

All you've— and you've met many of my friends, all of them are females.

Yes. It's one of the questions I have people ask before they get married. It's on the internet, questions you should ask before marrying, something to that effect. And one of them is, does the, does the person you're thinking of marrying have friends of the same sex?

I was always wary of girls who only had male friends.

Yes, you should be. You were right.

And yes, and honestly, if I think back, most of the girls who only had male friends, they were not great people, right? I believe, yeah, they were kind of— they were catty to other women. They were competitive. They really sought the attention.

You can't use your male charm, or— and you can't use your female charm with the same sex. They see right through it. So it's, it's not even usable. They see who you are. You can't fool the same sex like you can fool the opposite sex.

Going back quickly to Sean's question about the role of social media. God, I really think it's crippled us beyond what we can imagine.

That's right.

And I even, I find myself, and as I just said a few minutes ago, I'm really constantly trying to steer myself well and develop. I think I do have good habits now, but I'm just trying to develop even more. And I've really tried to have more sober fun and have more non-digital fun, like playing cards, or I don't know, I ordered this kit to like make— uh, it sounds so stupid that I'm saying this, but whatever, I'm too deep now. I already started saying it. I bought this castle kit. Do you think I'm crazy?

I think it's wonderful.

Really? Oh gosh. Shows.

So what does it— what does it do?

Just put it together? Yeah, you put it together. No, no, it's, um, it's like— it's, uh, almost like cardboard, and they're cutouts that you kind of put together.

Deepest people in my life, uh, is, uh, he's, he's extraordinary, and he, he's a Catholic. He converted actually from Protestant and is a first-class mind, first-class thinker, plays the piano like a virtuoso. I mean, he's extraordinary. And what does he do? He builds these phenomenal Lego structures. I mean, they're like, they're really works of art.

Really?

Yeah.

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And it's weird because that interest—

I'm not even—

what are you looking for?

I'm telling you, it's so weird. It's, it's like, It's just habitual. I don't know, I will tap it to see what time it is. Or I'll open it and then I'll go to my email. And then I'll—

by the way, if you tap it to see what time it is, here's a thought: wear a watch.

Well, I think more— I think what would be— because I'm not really looking at what time it is. I don't— my mind isn't thinking, oh, you need to check the time. It's just, I'm tapping my screen because I want to see it light up. I don't even realize I'm doing it.

Fascinating.

And then I'll go into my phone and I'll refresh my email. And by the way, I noticed my roommate does this too. My roommate who I live with in my apartment. And I'm not— just to make clear, I'm not referring to my college roommates, though. All of my friends, we all— I just see this. How we'll be at dinner with each other and people will pull out their phones and they're not looking for anything.

Even at dinner?

Wow. Oh, of course, of course. And they're like on Instagram.

And, and by the way, you're at Shabbat dinner often with the— my holy dozen. And nobody is looking at the phone at all at any time.

No. And also, I'm glad that you brought up that— those glorious Shabbat dinners, because Dennis— what I want people to know about Dennis is he not only has sober fun, even in the moments where, like, you could drink, you don't. You don't even like alcohol, right? Even at Shabbat dinner once a week, you won't drink. When he does the prayer, which I should know the name of by now.

Kiddush.

Of course. I was thinking that.

I know.

I was just holding off.

Grape juice. I do. Yeah.

Well, you take a little sip of the wine and you go, oh yeah.

Well, exactly. I'm not against people drinking. If you keep, if you keep this stuff in check, I have no issue with it. But, but you're right. I, the thought of relying on it, I don't find tuning out to be fun. I mean, I'm the opposite. I find staying alert fun.

Well, I think that what I started to ask myself and what I would encourage people who, who find that they rely on substances to ask themselves is, why are you tuning out right now? Try to understand what it is that you are trying to escape. Is it boredom? Is it your— for me, it was my own thoughts. Address the problem instead of just going back to the vice.

That's a very important realization.

No, they're absolutely right.

Well, that was not on air. So let me, let me, let me tell people what Sean was saying is when you rely on, on this chemical stuff, it, it produces chemicals which you then rely on for your happiness or your, or your escape or whatever in your brain. And Rick, who is also involved in the technical aspect of the show, was nodding, and I, and I just learned he, he's sober for 10 years, so he knows.

Congratulations, Rick.

Yeah, it is congratulations. It is, it is an achievement I, I consider sobriety after addiction an achievement that I have never— I don't consider anything I've done to be a greater achievement. 9 books is not a greater achievement than sobriety.

I totally agree with you.

That's how much I salute these people.

And you have— I mean, you've seen it firsthand with your friend.

Yes.

You always talk to me about Aaron's friends through AA.

Right, well, that's right. Well, he has really now come around to realize, well, there really is sober fun.

Oh wow, so what does he do for sober?

Well, friends are a very big thing, and he has a wonderful wife, and you know, and you, you could watch a movie. Movies are sober fun. I mean, it's endless what's sober fun, but I just have to acknowledge My son is an Orthodox Jew. My older son is Orthodox Jew. So among other things, they don't use electricity on the Sabbath for 24 hours. And when I am at his house in Florida and I see my grandchildren using no electricity to entertain themselves for an entire day, the, the gift that has been given to them— so what do they do for fun? Because kids love fun. They have other kids over.

Okay.

Just like in my— in 1850.

And by the way, just— I just want to tell the audience, Jack and Daniel, your two grandsons, are such well-adjusted kids. They are so cute. I'm not— I'm not just saying—

yeah, by the way, you know, I don't want people to think that these guys, you know, some angels walking around. They're both devilish.

They are the older one.

The older one is mastering field goal kicking. That's, that's one of his hobbies— fishing and field goal kicking. He goes to a place near his house, uh, in Fort Lauderdale, and there, there are uprights, and he, he kicks. I, I, I went with him.

He's so cute. He held the door open for me.

Did he?

Yes. He's— what is he, 12?

Yeah.

I was like, I can't— a, uh, 24-year-old won't hold the door open for me, but A 12-year-old will. Wow.

Oh my God. I noted that before my son did. So Sean notes that we're talking about sobriety and the irony is that I have Jack Daniel for my grandsons. Yes, it is hilarious. I, my, my son, when he named his second son Jack, did not realize. And I— my first thought, which is a joke, is I don't drink.

Is that a whiskey?

Yeah.

Okay, that's, that's funny because I never would have thought of that. Now that you say it, I think it's ironic, but clearly it's more of a male option.

They have a big sign up in, in one of their rooms, Jack Daniel's. It is very— is adorable. But they're learning, and this is a, a real gift of not using electricity a day a week. They're learning Sober fun.

You know what's interesting? I was having this discussion with a few girls my age who I was out to dinner with a few weeks ago. By the way, they work at PragerU. I don't even know if I told you that I had this dinner with some—

I didn't know.

Yeah, they're— I mean, people who work at PragerU are just 5-star human beings, right? World-class people. It's actually a little creepy. Is there any bad person at PragerU? It's such a, you've perfected such a, um, a cohort of, of great people. Anyway, um, we were out at dinner and all of us agreed that when we have children, we are not going to let them have any devices until they're like 15 years old. I have always thought that one day when I, I shouldn't say when, hopefully, hopefully if I have kids, hopefully when. I am— they are not getting a phone until they are in their teens. And even when they are young, they're not going to watch TV. They're not going to be able to look at the iPad, none of that. And some may say to me that that is a bit extreme, and I agree, it probably is a bit extreme, but it shows you what a reaction—

extreme is the amount of time they spend on it.

Yes, I know, but, but people may say it's extreme to totally deny it to them as it is extreme to have it be a part of their everyday lives. I agree. No, I am not going to have them do that. And I would bet you a lot of people my age feel the same way. But interestingly, we don't make a big effort ourselves to wean ourselves off of the technology while we can.

Right. Well, I will say, and in my case, the, the phone has really one purpose. And it's not fun. It's— I thank God for it, that I could keep in touch with so many people.

I—

so you're gonna pick me up, uh, at the, at the airport, uh, give me your, give me your text number. I mean, it's, it's so convenient. I mean, it's— I, I love it. And by the way, I text my own kids. We don't always have to speak on the phone.

But you don't understand, that's that You use it with temperance. You use it the way it should be used.

Right, I use it as a means. It's not an ends. That's right. And by the way, I think a lot of people are like me. I'm not bragging or anything. It's nothing to brag about.

It's totally a generational thing. My parents are the same way. That's right.

Well, because— well, do your parents have sober fun?

Interestingly, my dad is like you. He doesn't really like the taste of alcohol, and he Well, does he have hobbies? He does, yes. My mom loves Wordle. Do you know Wordle?

It's a form of crossword puzzle.

Yeah, it's, it's on the phone. But she and I both, we call ourselves tortured people because we both have the, the voice in our heads telling us that we need to work harder, even if we've—

yeah, that is torture.

It's torture. Yeah. So my mom and I both kind of need to have a glass of wine to relax. So, but maybe it's a male-female thing. It's a very interesting—

well, I don't know. I think there are— it's an interesting question. Are there more male or female addicts, or is it evenly distributed?

Well, I'm not really— I'm not really talking— I mean, that's certainly an interesting question, but I'm not really here talking about addiction.

I know you're not.

I'm saying, do men have an easier time relaxing and having Oh, I think that's a very good, uh, it seems to me that the answer is yes. Me, it would seem to me too.

That's a very, very interesting point. I love it.

I, again, I'm just, I, men can tune out without, oh, totally.

Uh, uh, without artificial inducements.

So Dennis has this line that, uh, I told my dad and he loves it. He quotes you a lot. Uh, well, the wife is Sanskrit for flaw finder one. Oh yeah. He, he loves, but this one he also loves. Dennis said to me once, he said, if women couldn't get into men's heads or get a man's head for a man's brain for a day, she would think, my God, there really isn't a lot going on here.

Right.

And then you said, but if a man could get into a woman's brain, he, for a day, right, he would shoot his brains out.

That's right.

That is totally accurate.

It is. I, I, I know men and women pretty well, and that I'm convinced of. That, by the way— so when I talk about men and women, and a whole lecture just on men and women, so I know, I know, I go further. So I say, so ladies, you must understand something. When you ask your husband, so honey, what are you thinking about? And he says nothing, you can trust him.

I can't— I truly can't fathom that.

Of course.

What, what is I mean, I know it's a stupid question. What is it like to think about nothing? Do you just like— is it just blank?

Is it like sort of like my, my basset hound? They sort of stare out and nothing much is going on.

Do you guys, do you guys—

they totally agree with me.

Do you, do you also think about nothing?

Right, thumbs up from Rick.

Yeah. How much did you see all of them?

Yes, that's right. Sean said we have to force ourselves to think about something.

I have to— for it is— yes, I know that it is difficult for me to think about nothing when I go to sleep at night. I am working so hard to think about nothing?

Well, you know, when I listen to my classical music— so I'm always asked, oh, so are you picturing something? Are you imagining something? Are you thinking about something?

I asked you that last week when we were listening to it.

Perfect. And the answer is no. I just hear the music.

You said it just goes straight to your heart.

Yes, and my brain. So it's the most powerful thing outside of human relations.

You know, I think that's why You, you say a lot to me on and off the air, and you don't need to say it to me because I see it every day. You have a ton of energy. I think a lot of it is because you, you cannot— you turn your brain off.

Yeah.

God knows you turn your brain on.

Right. I, uh, that's a very, very good point.

But you power it off completely.

That's right. It's— there's no overload.

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So what is that? All right. So Sean was just sharing from addictioncenter.com, men. So what does that mean? 11.5%. That percentage of men will overdose, will become addicted. Versus 6% of women. Okay. I've abused illicit drugs. Okay. So men, according to that, are twice as likely.

I actually, I mean, in my observation, that seems right. I actually think men more than women, men are more likely than women to become addicted. But in the group that is not addicted, I think that women need to rely on it more to relax than men.

I, it's a very, very good Good point.

And that's a, that's a very important distinction.

It is. Well, I'm just thinking, so what can be done?

I know I was going to ask that too. Again, I, I know that I'm like a broken record here, but I think you have to, to develop some good habits with this. You have to force yourself, right?

Well, that's true for everything.

Every Everything, everything.

The great tragedy— I mean, I've said this so often, I don't want to, as they say, beat a dead horse— but when people call me up and say, Dennis, so my wife and I are going to have our first kid, what's your recommendation? Any, any words of wisdom? And I always have the same answer: yes, just remember to teach your child and for you to know Self-control is infinitely more important than self-esteem. The, the, the great division, one of the great divisions between pre-World War II, all through the beginning of America, and post-World War II till today, is that it was a given that you taught your child self-control, and then idiocy took over. After World War II. True idiocy. That, like self-esteem, this is what's most important for your child, but it's not true anyway. You can't— there's no such thing. Artificial self-esteem has a word for it. It's hubris or arrogance. Artificial self-esteem is, is, is awful for that person and for whoever associates with them. The real self-esteem in life comes from self-control. That's when you get self-esteem.

It's so true. It's when— whenever I have sober fun because I controlled myself, I feel good about myself. I go, wow, that was— that was a great thing that you pushed yourself to do.

So what do you think about fountain penning still? Phil, I must say, um, my wife marveled at how much you enjoyed it.

Really?

Yeah, she, she, she— it cracked her up.

I sort of marveled at how much I enjoyed it.

I marveled at how much you enjoyed it. I was sure that you would say, Dennis, you know, it's just a little boring thing, just move on to something.

Well, I was just blown away by the colors.

I mean, well, exactly.

Remember those purples we were looking at?

I know.

And I didn't, I didn't even know that there were colors could be that beautiful. As weird as—

yes, I love color. That's why I do color photography. That was another— it's been a lifelong hobby in my life. By the way, it's, it's, it's interesting. My— you don't know this, and you know a lot about me. So when I was 13 and I did no schoolwork, I was already developing hobbies— shortwave radio listening and photography. We lived 25 minutes from Kennedy Airport. It was then known as Idlewild. And my, uh, I— my father, to his credit, took me to the airport, left me there alone all day at 13, and all I did was photograph airplanes. And why? A, I loved photography, but B, it was my romance. I would see a foreign airline and think, wow, that's what I want to do one day. Fly to that country. Or I would see United Airlines, American Airlines, and think, wow, where is that going? Detroit. I've never been to Detroit. It was so exciting. And then he'd take me home. By the way, he left me there all day, which parents today leave a 13-year-old at an airport all day? I'm not even sure that you're allowed to do that.

No, you're not. You can't get past—

Which is terrible. I mean, I flew alone at 7. We— my parents did not fill out a single form. All they did is drop me off at the plane. They saw me to the gate, which you could do in those days. Even if you didn't have a ticket, you could see somebody off. Bye, Dennis, have a good flight.

I mean, it's, it's a bad thing that we live in a world where we have to have such security, but I'm glad we do.

Well, I don't know that we— I don't know that we have to. I'm not sure.

Oh, I think we— gosh, I think we really do. I was reading I was reading one of the papers recently and they summarized the TSA seizures in the past year. I didn't even realize that so many people try to do crazy stuff at airports.

Like what?

Oh my gosh. They— I think there was an instance at JFK in December where someone tried to sneak in like a gun, but, but divided the— like basically disassembled the gun and put it in different suitcases. I was just reading about instances. Of, oh, someone tried to smuggle in.

But what does that have to do with sending your 7-year-old?

I'm saying that now airports don't let you go through unless you are getting on the plane because it's—

Oh, that's— I'm fine with that. I just— I used to bring—

So what is the 7-year-old going to do? Just go stand in the area before security?

Okay, I understand. Because the parents can't— Well, you can. Parents can accompany. You can get You have, you have to get it at, at one of the airline desks, but you can go through if you're not flying, right?

But you have to be with some— you used to be accompanying someone who is flying.

Yes, that's fine. So that answers the question. But you, you don't know, but you wouldn't know. There would be no reason. I know this because I, I brought a nephew of mine, uh, to, to visit us each year for, for a week. From New Jersey, and the amount of forms he had to fill out and we had to fill out, and, uh, he had to be supervised by a flight attendant, accompanied off the plane by a flight attendant. When I was a kid, when I was 7, you didn't have to do what a 15-year-old has to do today.

Well, a lot of that is because there are more creepos.

I, I don't think so, really. A lot of it is because people are more afraid. We live, we live in an age of fear. We live in an age that's the helicopter parenting thing. Why? When I— look, this should really interest you because you're, you're almost a professional swimmer, or were. You're now a happier human being. But, uh, in any event, uh, did you know that diving boards were legal in California when I was a kid?

You mean in private homes?

In private homes.

Yeah, you told me this. This is crazy. You're right. And now they're really— now they, they are—

oh, they've been illegal for most of my, my adult life. That's that to me. The supervision of a 15-year-old on a plane is part of— you must not— you cannot have a diving board.

Right. But then on the, on the other hand, of course, you can have puberty blockers and gender transition surgeries when you're 12. So that's the morally confused world that we live in. I'm really glad, though, that you, that you brought up this, this hobby of yours when you were younger, because you asked a few minutes ago what can be done about this issue. And I responded, for the 80th time this broadcast, that you have to develop good habits. But also, I think a part of it is seeing other people who have good hobbies allows— gives you some ideas. Like, when I was at your house, I would have never, ever, ever thought to consider, when I try out hobbies, looking at fountain pen ink. But the fact that I was just at your house that day when you were doing it and I saw it and I went, oh, this is kind of cool. It's opened this new world for me, not just with looking at fountain pen ink specifically, but now I browse art online. I just look up like beautiful paintings on Google and I just click through them and see which ones I like and see which ones I don't. And now I have more of an eye towards the color. Or I was even Googling the other day different color palettes. Like you, you know, Seeing your example gave me some inspiration. So I think—

that's a big deal.

I think people talking about things that interest them give others ideas. On that note, I want to ask the people, lovely individuals in our control room, I've never asked you guys this question. What are some of your hobbies? Video games.

Sean, he's, he's cracking himself up, but it's probably—

his hobby is cracking himself His dogs. Yes, his dogs.

Annoying me is a big, big one on his list.

You're confirming my mother's—

Confirming what?

You're confirming my mother's idea of you, that you hate Sean. For those of you who don't get the reference, that's hilarious. My mom said to me one time, I came home from work and she goes, Julie, oh my God, why does Dennis hate Sean so much? You love him. You always talk about how great he is.

Sean, why do I hate you so much? There's got to be a reason Sean's cracking up. I don't actually— I hate Sean and deeply dislike Rick. Because if any— if anybody is dislikable, it's Rick. The guy radiates anger.

You know who I dislike the most? Alejandro.

Alejandro is another one. I mean, the whole crew here. That's why you love working with men, because this is a great quartet. Alejandro, what is that? What is my thing about Colombians? Why did I have it? NC what? NCNB. No Colombian, no broadcast.

Oh my God. Also, it shows how this show is coming full circle. I started off by saying how much I enjoy working with men. Another reason why I enjoy working with men is you guys, and it proves the point that I was making in the middle. You guys do have more fun, sort of. You allow for more fun on a daily basis than, than women do.

It is impossible to imagine.

They horse around.

5 women doing a national broadcast. I mean, this is serious work.

Of course it is.

Just having a lark half the time.

Oh, you guys, you're right. At home, you have no idea how, how much shenanigans.

That's correct.

Goes on before. And it's, it's so fun.

Huh? Yeah, look at— that's a great one. Look at how much fun they have on The View. It's such a good point. Yeah, the, the, uh, each sex brings its advantages and disadvantages, and we'll do some of the disadvantages on another Dennis and Julie.

Yes, we will.

I can't tell you how much, uh, this has opened up to me, the sober fun concept. That this is a very, very serious issue. I'll tell you what it's related to as well. Remember I said boredom— excuse me, secularism plus affluence equals boredom? Yeah, which is a fact. It just— it's a fact. It's not, not a Dennis theory. And boredom is undone by excitement. There is a massive premium on excitement. And that's, uh, that's a very serious problem. It's one of the reasons so many people your age don't look forward to getting married. I was just about to say, it doesn't sound exciting.

Getting married, having kids, going to church, right, is following the law.

That's right, is boring to them. That's—

that little do they know that that is As I like to say, the infrastructure that you have to build a full life.

Yes, exactly.

A full and exciting life.

Relying on adrenaline. That's what it really amounts to. Relying on adrenaline.

You know, that's—

That's why, by the way, this bugs them about religion. Religion doesn't seem to be an adrenaline producer.

Religion has given me more adrenaline than anything in my life. I swear to God, as weird as that sounds, because reading the stories, I think they're really fun and interesting. And as I was arguing earlier, it's allowed me to look at life through more— a more exciting lens, because I view a lot of things as divine or miracles or—

well, I have another, uh, a related theory. Yeah, I don't know what's more fun And this will sound— this would sound like to many in your generation is weird. There is very little in life that is more fun— there was nothing maybe— than learning. And I have an interesting proof. I used my father as an example on the air. My dad died at 96, and his last years were his really only unhappy years because my mother had died earlier, and they were together for 72 years.

How did they meet, by the way? Sorry to—

they met, believe it or not, at a religious Jewish dance, an Orthodox Jewish dance.

That's so cute.

It's totally cute, but it's also very interesting because there wouldn't be no such thing as an Orthodox Jewish dance today.

No.

Anyway, it's another issue for another time. And what did he do most of the time? He read. And I remember thinking, he knows he's not here for a long time, but to the last minute, learning is fun. I could see if I knew at X amount of time, and I, uh, I would read or I would learn through some other way. Learning is extremely exciting even.

That's why it's such a shame what has happened in schools. Of course, you know, the woke stuff is, is a category unto itself, right? But more broadly, there's been, as John Agresto, a guest who I had on my show Timeless, argued, a, the death of learning because teachers, especially in humanity subjects, have overly professionalized and academicized the material, specifically literature.

Right. Who reads literature after high school or after college? Very few people.

Very few people.

Right.

And it's because when you're in the classroom, and I found this, when you open a book, the teacher's identifying, this is an instance of alliteration. This is a simile. This is a metaphor.

Well, let's focus on this symbol for 35 minutes. It's worse than that in my opinion. You read for a test. Oh, well, you read for a grade.

Well, exactly. You read for a grade. And also teachers, and John Agresto writes about this very eloquently in his book, which I know you ordered because I, I spoke so highly of it. John Agresto writes that teachers now, they make books just, they reduce them to just a commentary of the time. Like Heart of Darkness is an exploration of imperialism in Africa. Nathaniel Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter, uh, is a commentary on the sexist—

that is a Puritan brilliant point—

isn't it?

Therefore irrelevant to you.

And he, he writes it so much better than I could say it now.

But he says, oh, is that when you reduce—

and this is what they're doing in school—

then why read anything?

When you reduce these, these authors to their time and place, it otherizes them. It puts, it puts a—

that's why the people who laugh at me over my Bible commentaries. Oh, Prager, he thinks I'm going to learn something from a 3,000-year-old book.

That's— I mean, that's so stupid to me. That is the most stupid comment in the world to me, because you do— you learn from the fact that it's a 3,000-year-old book. It's endured for 3,000 years, right?

Because it's rooted in human nature, which hasn't changed in 3,000 years.

And it's, it's, it's really— I think all of this is related because in schools, everything is just a political commentary, or it's for a test, and, and they have made life and literature and learning a desiccating experience. They have sucked the life out of it. So no wonder we don't have hobbies.

Yeah, well, this has really been something. I, I just ask everybody listening or watching to ask yourself, what is your sober fun? Do you rely on chemicals, uh, to— substances, substances. I, I use chemicals deliberately, but of course I mean substances.

And please write to me. What's my email, Dennis?

Your email is julie@juliehartman-hartman.com.

You were close, which makes me think that you, you know it. So do you want to say it correctly?

That's the best I can do.

julie@julie-hartman.com. I'm very interested. Wait a minute.

That's what I said.

No, That's what I said. You, you said—

no, I, I— oh please, you guys, you guys are giving me a hard time for no good reason. You guys, when I said Dash Hartman, I was correcting the original one.

Oh right, yes.

Oh please.

Okay everyone, this is a good segue.

Follow us. I think I had— I think that her thing is Julie Hartman. Do Julie Dash Hartman.

Well, you should have been more clear.

I'm pretty clear.

I get paid for clarity. Clarity over agreement. This is a good segue to please follow us at Dennis Julie Pod, and you will see many videos on that Instagram page of Dennis denying that he says things when he did. Like, remember when I was counting the almonds and I said there were 14 almonds and you went, she's right. And then I said, oh my God, I was right. And then you go, I didn't say you were right. It's a video. Look it up.

She's with Dennis on this one. Sean knows.

You just called—

what'd you say, Sean?

You just called Sean she.

She declares her own rightness.

Oh yes, I did. I said I'm right. And then Dennis— you are so FOS. Yes, you are so FOS. Audience, watch this and everyone will side with me. I said I was right.

You repeated, by the way, FOS is full of sobriety. For anybody who is listening. Just wanted to make that clear. Thanks for being with us.

Shalom.