Do the Ends Justify the Means?

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On today's episode of Timeless Wisdom.

So here's one today. I want to attack a cliché. Now let me say a word about clichés. These are things, these are lines that are used over and over and they become a cliché. Haste makes waste is a good example. Anyway, haste makes waste is a great example and it's true. Most clichés are are true. Okay? However, there is a small fraction that is used and just isn't true. And the one I'm dealing with today is the ends don't justify the means.

That's coming up on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.

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To be or not to be, that is the question.

Where was God?

Isn't God supposed to be good?

Isn't he supposed to love us? Does God want us to suffer?

10 years, you're not finished yet? Marty, why did you do this to me?

Who are you?

Bruce, I am God. Bingo!

Yahtzee!

Is that your final answer?

Our service has God!

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!

Well, it was nice to meet you, God.

Thank you for the Grand Canyon, and good luck with the apocalypse. Hello everybody, this is the Ultimate Issues Hour on the Dennis Prager Show. I enjoy this hour immensely. From feedback from you, many or all or nearly all of you feel the same. I talk about some great issue in life on this hour and try to clarify it for you, and we have some really good dialogues. I just might add something. I, I long ago made the observation that ironically, though people tend to be wiser as they get older, They abandon talk about ultimate issues at a fairly early age. When you were in college, you know, you talked to kids at midnight or something, if you weren't drunk, about, you know, is there a God? Is there an afterlife? What is good and evil? What is the purpose of life? And then after college, shortly afterward, One is preoccupied with the mundane, and I don't say it in a negative way. We have to be or we don't survive. Making a living, getting married, raising kids, uh, I mean, these are the things that take up people's attention, plus entertainment, of which there is a vast amount, and a lot of it meaningless and some of it wonderful. And so what happens is We forget the ultimate issues discussions. Also, a lot of people make up their minds on issues when they're 20 or 18 or 22, and that's it. I mean, how many of you have changed your minds on any big issue since you're 20? Interesting question. Like capital punishment. It's not my subject today, but that's an example. Most people are against capital punishment at 20 or against capital punishment at 40. And it's just, they decided at that age and that was it, and there was, there's no more to talk about. So it's a very good thing that we review this whole issue of the ultimate issues of life on the show, uh, now that we're adult. So here's one today. I want to, I want to attack, uh, a cliché. Now let me say a word about clichés. These are things, these are lines that are used over and over and they become a cliché. Haste makes waste is a good example. Give me a few more actually and I'll analyze. A stitch in time saves nine. William, did you ever hear that in your life? Tell me, Alan, you're dating yourself. Even I never used it. No, but it's a cliché nobody uses anymore. Stitch in time saves nine. So if you said that to somebody today, they wouldn't have a clue. First of all, I don't even know what it means. I mean, I know what it means. Do something in its time and then you'll save longer time. But you think I ever stitched anything together to know what it means? Anyway, haste makes waste is a great example, and it's true. Most clichés are true. Okay, however, there is, there, there, there is a small fraction that is used and, and just isn't true for— and the one I'm dealing with today is the ends don't justify the means. It is said so often, and it is said as if it's a given. The ends don't justify the means. Now sometimes, of course that's true. A silly example, so just to make it clear, I'll use a silly example, one that nobody could dispute. If your end is to exterminate the, I don't know, your house has become somewhat infested with cockroaches, all right? And somebody brings along a bazooka. And blows up your house, the ends, getting rid of the cockroaches, do not justify the means, bazooka-izing your house. Okay? We are all in agreement, in that instance, the ends did not justify the means. However, if your house were infested with terrorists who were intent on blowing up parts of your city, then the use of a bazooka may well be justified. Now, how then does the same exact means—using a bazooka to blow up your house or parts of your house—how is it in case 1 justified and in case 2 unjustified? The answer is because of the ends. Of course, the ends justify the means. When you are fighting terrorists, a bazooka means— the means of a bazooka is warranted. If you are fighting cockroaches, then the use of a bazooka is unwarranted. Now, the reason I sound so annoyed is because I am annoyed. That's why. And I can't stand fuzzy thinking when people should think better. Sometimes the ends justify the means, and sometimes they don't. End of issue. But to categorically state ends don't justify means is not true. Now call, please, because if you have, you know, any doubts about this, or you think I'm wrong, or you want to give examples in either direction, I am all ears. 1-800-PRAGER-776. 1-800-PRAGER-776, which translates digitally 2877-243-7776. 877-243-7776. You can say, of course you can say, in this instance, the ends don't justify the means. Of course, that would be, that would be appropriate. But to offer as a general rule That ends don't justify means is, is just wrong. I don't know how else means are justified except by ends. That's the whole way we know whether it's justified or not. Ends, ends are exactly what justify means, or they're not justified. How else do you know? Is the use of nuclear weapons justified? As, which means as a means? Overwhelmingly not. Was it justified in World War II, to end World War II with Japan? I think it was. The ends, saving millions of Allied and millions of Japanese lives, justified the means of dropping an atom bomb on a city. I hate to say it, it hurts me to say it because of the suffering that it entailed, but it, it prevented so much more suffering of both Japanese and Allies that there was, there was no choice. Now you can agree, you can disagree, but at least understand the point that the only way to justify means or unjustify means is by their ends. So the whole cliché is meaningless. And untrue, worse than meaningless. Half the time the ends justify the means, half the time they don't. Alrighty, 1-800-PRAGER-776-877-243-7776. I cannot think offhand, maybe some, some of you will remind me. I cannot think offhand, uh, of a more frequently used incorrect cliché. See, war is not the answer is not a cliché. It's a silly, silly, silly bumper sticker. So it's— but by the way, it's an offshoot of the ends don't justify the means. War is never justified. That's what it says, basically. Okay, let's go to Dallas, Texas. Josh. Hi, Josh.

Dennis Prager. Hi, Dennis. Great to talk to you. Thank you. Hey, I was just calling to, uh, I think make a little bit of a clarification because some people, I think, incorrectly use the end doesn't justify the means. I think that, of course, good ends justify good means, but I think what really most of us mean when we say that is that you can never do good— or you can never do evil so that good may come. In other words, evil— or good ends do not justify evil means. Uh, the example you used is something that I would say is perfectly acceptable because I don't think that there's anything intrinsically evil about firing a bazooka. Uh, so—

well then, what's intrinsically evil? Well, I think that there are—

I think cold-blooded murder would be intrinsic.

Yes, but cold-blooded murder the means was killing. Sometimes it's totally justified.

You would make a distinction though between murder and killing.

I mean, yes, hold on with me, hold on with me, and this is a very important discussion. You see, my contention is that we only decide whether the means are evil based on the ends. That's my whole point. Back in a moment.

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Hi everybody, Dennis Prager here, the Ultimate Issues Hour, Tuesday, the third hour of my show. And if you don't get all three hours of the show, you should consider doing terrible things to your station. Joking, joking, joke alert, joke alert. Okay, the, uh, the subject for today's Ultimate Issue show is taking on the erroneous cliché, the ends never justify the means. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I don't know of any other way in general to assess the justification of means except by the ends. Killing, right? Killing is justified in some cases depending on what the end is. If the end is to get rid of a sharpshooter who is shooting children, then the ends justify killing. If it is a man going into a home and just murdering people, the ends being to shut them up so that they don't witness his burglary, then clearly the ends don't justify the means. All right, now let's go back here to Josh in Dallas. Josh, thanks for holding on and thank you for calling. No problem. So you were saying if the means are evil, then they're never justified by the ends. But, but, but what is an intrinsically evil act? Just give me one. Cold-blooded murder. No, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The act, the act is killing. You determine if it's murder, cold-blooded or not, by the context, by the ends.

Correct. So I mean, what you're looking at is not just the objective. You're looking at the subjective and the relative. So in order for a morally right act, you have to have all of those be in line, correct? The example I always use to explain this, and we have a really good example recently in the news, is abortion. I think it is an excellent end to seek the end of abortion, but to kill George Tiller in order to accomplish that end is not justified, even though it's a great end to save the lives of little babies. It is not justified.

By the way, I will just say, I will just say, you picked a very difficult example, incidentally. I don't justify his murder whatsoever. I hope the guy is actually— I hope he is given capital punishment, the murderer. However, for those who do believe that it is mass murder abortion, uh, the exact same moral equivalent as Nazi mass murder, communist mass murder, it is hard— I don't know how you make the case that it is entirely unjustified.

Well, I think you would have to look at what we call the principle of double effect, correct? Where you don't ever intend to do evil, but the evil, you know, some things that are obviously bad—

Nobody intends to do evil. Very few people. The abortion doctor doesn't intend to do evil either. That's why intentions don't matter. Listen to my Ultimate Issue show on intentions. That was, I think, the last one. Intentions don't amount to a hill of beans. It's what one does, not what one intends. Look, you're obviously a thoughtful young man. I appreciate your call. That was not a good example, though, because there is— if you really do believe that there is no difference between abortion and, or a doctor who performs, let's say, 1,000 abortions, and a man who murders 1,000 people, then I don't know how you exactly argue morally against killing that person. Now, I don't think it's the same. I am absolutely opposed to abortion except in the case of saving a mother's life, but it's not— I don't use the language of mass murder. For that very reason, because I would have to actually— if it is mass murder, identical— and I'm not going to debate this now, this is not the subject, so don't call in on it, forgive me. You know, I'll happily talk about this another time. I talk about just about everything. But if one uses that language and means it literally, it is very hard to come up with an argument against shooting an abortion doctor, which is no justification for shooting the abortion doctor. But it is an argument for not using the language of mass murder. Mass homicide, terrible evil, terrible sin, immoral. There are many things that it can be called and ought to be called. All right, so that's why it wasn't a good example. All right, now again, our topic here is ends justifying means. That's exactly how means half the time are justified, because we know what our ends are. Okay, Long Beach, California, and John. Hello, John.

Dennis Prager. Uh, his call was great. I, I, you know, I'm— I have to say it's gonna be tough to follow, but, uh, going back to one of the last examples you gave, how about allowing the harvesting of, uh, of children in the womb for stem cell treatment? If you can harvest one fetus and heal 100 people, wouldn't it be worthwhile? Yeah, well, I was not there for a challenge.

Right, though it is a good challenge. That is why good people differ on this one. I never said, from the beginning of this hour, I have not said, or in fact I've said the opposite. I said sometimes the ends do justify the means and sometimes they don't. My argument is not that the ends always justify the means, of course not. My argument is that we should drop the cliché that the ends don't justify the means. Half the time they do. You have picked an extremely complex issue. I am opposed to the harvesting of nascent human beings, of embryos, for stem cell research.

I am. We could go on. I mean, my whole— I agree with him that, you know, I don't see how you can say let us do evil that good may come. And I can give you a couple more examples. I mean, you could— you use the example of the atom bomb.

Yes, the atom bomb.

A lot of people on both sides have good arguments But why not just start every war with an atom bomb strike to save life? If less people are going to die in the atomic strike—

because we assume, we assume that well before that we can be victorious. You don't know. You are not a prophet who knows the future.

Well, if we can ask— however, I will say this, that's the way they made the decision in Japan. Like you said, they, they don't know the future, but they had a pretty good idea Uh, based on— there was no other way.

It was clear there was no other way to end the war. It was— that was a given. It was a given, the number of people on both sides who would die if the bomb were not dropped. So you had to— you had— well, you know, certain things you do know in the future. I mean, you know, I mean, there's good arguments on both sides.

I've heard them both.

And I don't think there is any good argument on the other side. I don't. But, but if you— if the very fact that you believe that there are good arguments for the atom bomb proves my point, that the ends in that case justified the means, a means which overwhelmingly we would deplore, the dropping of an atom bomb on civilians.

There are a number of examples I can give.

No, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, just wait, wait. It's not— you're moving on. Do you—

I'm just saying, I just don't know that good may come. That's the bottom line. I agree with the first caller. That what?

You can't prescribe the means.

What is right you must do and what is wrong you mustn't do.

Okay, I feel terrible, but I don't think we got anywhere.

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Wow, this is fascinating. Pretty much have, uh, equal numbers of folks, religious and secular, right and left, disagreeing with me. That's why I chose this, because it is such a widespread statement— the ends never justify the means, or the ends don't justify the means— that I've decided to think it through with you. Because in fact, half the time the ends do justify means, and half the time they don't. So it's not worth making any generalized statement about ends and means because it depends on the situation. Well, I feel terrible about my last caller because we really got nowhere. And it's not— but by, by I mean nowhere is, is not that he didn't convince me or I didn't convince him. It's that we were no clearer about where we differed, which is always troubling to me. I like clarity. I don't care if you agree with me or not at all, uh, because I kept asking and then we would move, or I felt he would move to another subject. And I said, if the very fact that you agree that there are two sides, at least, well, that there are two sides to the issue of was the atom bomb justified, means you agree with me. Normally, the means of dropping an atom bomb on civilians is, is clearly evil.

Of course.

But the very fact that there is a case where you even acknowledge it might not have been evil— I think it was correct— means that the ends— ending World War II, saving millions of Japanese and Allied lives— was worth it. So it was the ends that justified those means. Now there are things that can never be justified, or I cannot imagine a circumstance where you take innocent people and you sadistically perform experiments on them like the Nazis did in their camps. Where you freeze people alive and, well, they say, well, it was for medical research, Dennis. What if they found out some great cure that way? It wouldn't matter. It wouldn't matter. That is so intrinsically wrong. Uh, and, and by the way, it was, it was not done for medical research, so it's a phony end in any event, because they did it for sadistic reasons. They would have given the people sedatives. They enjoyed inflicting suffering. Okay, let's go to Kathy. In Sharon, Ohio. Is that correct, Kathy? Sharon? Sharon. Oh, I knew I— all right, our screener will be duly chastised.

Yeah, we're between Cleveland and Akron, Ohio. Um, yeah, I, I wanted to disagree with you, and I wanted to present it from a Catholic theological point of view. And I have a master's in theology, um, in Catholic theology. And Saint Thomas Aquinas taught that the first rule of morality is do good, avoid evil, which I think most people could agree with. And then from there, the church in the catechism specifically defines the 3 components of a moral act, and all 3 components of the moral act must be good for the act in itself to be good. Those 3 components are the ends, the means, which is usually the act itself, and then the circumstances, which usually includes intention. First, I want to disagree with you on the intentions. Good intentions never make an evil act good, but bad intentions can make a good act bad. In other words, say making love to your wife, but if you have the bad intention of inflicting pain or humiliating her, then, you know, that makes the act bad. So all three of those must be good for an act to be morally good, as I said. So something like—

Oh, okay, so let's take the Catholic woman who, uh, about whom there is a show, a Broadway play, uh, about Irina, uh, Updaik, the Catholic religious Catholic Polish woman who saved, uh, a dozen or more Jews in hiding because she slept with a married Nazi. That's evil. Okay, that's what your thinking leads to, the belief that she should have let them all go to their deaths rather than sleep with the Nazi? No, well, she's doing an evil act.

No, she's not. Sleeping with someone who's not her husband is an evil act. It's fornication or adultery.

Right, so you would have told her not to do it? Yes. Okay, all right. Well, all I can say is now you know why I am making war on the notion that the ends never justify the means. It leads to that sort of thinking. I think the vast majority of Catholic scholars would not say that she committed an evil, that it was a net good. By the way, and it's worth asking your priest about her, Irene Updike. You're listening to The Dennis Prager Show.

Hi, my name is Dan Ollberg. I'm calling from Rogers, Minnesota, a suburb just outside Minneapolis. And I just wanted to thank Dennis. For the wisdom, the rational way of looking at things. It's been instrumental in my life. I started listening to Dennis about 15 years ago, and oddly, I was praying for peace of mind and wisdom, and you were introduced. And my life is not a utopia, but it has been improved, and I appreciate that. So much of it has to do with Dennis Prager So thank you, Dennis Prager. If you're listening to this, please know you have made a huge difference in this person's life, and it's cascaded into others that are close to me. Love you. Take care, and thanks again. Are you enjoying Timeless Wisdom?

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You're listening to the Dennis Prager Show. Coming to you in Hindi with simultaneous translation made to sound as if it's my voice. That's how simultaneous and excellent technology has become. Hello, my friends, it's the Ultimate Issues Hour, and I just mentioned to what's-his-name that, uh, that I don't think I ever chose a less a more contentious subject for the Ultimate Issues Hour than this one. Uh, it, it— I am convinced that it equally, uh, challenges and annoys, though I never raise things to annoy. Challenge, yes, but not annoy. Uh, right and left, religious and secular.

And I—

and, uh, it'll probably be worth a second visit. I'll look at your mail and I'm getting your calls, of course, now. And it is my, my dispute, my disputing the cliché that the ends never justify the means. Half the time they do. I use the atom bomb over Hiroshima, but this, this one is a really good one for, at least for those of you who believe, uh, well, most of us believe, but anyway, the sinfulness of sleeping with a married man or, or, and those who believe in the sinfulness of sleeping, uh, non-maritally. This Catholic woman who is a saint to my, in my view, uh, who saved— I don't remember the number. By the way, there is a magnificent play. I was at the opening on Broadway, Irena's Vow. You should all see it, those of you in the New York area and those of you visiting New York as tourists. It's magnificent. It will, uh It will, it will move you deeply. Anyway, it is the true story of this, uh, then very young Catholic woman who slept with a Nazi, a married Nazi as it happens, in order to save 12 Jews. I think it was 12, it might have been more, who lived underneath that man's cellar. He would have exposed them and they would have all gone to a Nazi death camp. The vast majority of us thinks that she was simply heroic, religious or not religious, for doing what she did. But if you think that the ends never justify the means, the ends here saving 12 innocent lives, the means sleeping with the Nazi non-maritally and adulterously because he's married. Well then, you are consistent. The ends never justify the means. Saving innocent lives from torturous deaths isn't worth sleeping with a man you shouldn't be sleeping with. And indeed, my last caller believed that. It's very much worth rethinking for those of you who have bought this cliché. Okay, 1-8— well, I don't need to give you the number. Let's go to Long Beach, California. Jerry, hello Jerry, Dennis Prager.

Hey Dennis, how you doing? Okay, thanks. My scenario has to do whether the act or means is intrinsically evil, and I want to know how this differs from, also, you know, your statement differs from utilitarianism. But let's say, given the scenario, torturing a 3-year-old child would be intrinsically evil. But if, let's say, we did that in order to torture the 3-year-old child of a terrorist in order to get him to talk in order to save 10,000 lives, I largely agree with what you say, but we have to look at whether the—

Jerry, the very fact that you're asking it is my point. I am against it. But the very fact that it is even debatable proves my point that we know the morality of the means most of the time. I mean, always extreme examples do not reflect necessarily on a generalization, but Jerry, the very fact that you pose this question proves my point that you are— that all of us recoil at the idea of torturing a 3-year-old. Then you add these ends of saving 10,000 lives because the the father of the 3-year-old will talk. I mean, you know, look, what about— how about murdering a child? Do you know that there were Jews in the Holocaust who had to stifle a child's cries so that it wouldn't give away this— the hiding area of 50 of them? Is killing a baby wrong? Of course killing a baby is wrong. Did the mother who killed her baby, uh, to, to sacrifice her baby for— to save the 50 lives, did she do wrong? I don't think so. All I'm saying, folks, is that simple moral clichés— the ends never justify the means— it's just not true. All of life is in ends. Is it right to hit a child? Only if the ends are proper discipline and it's done in a certain way. I mean, unless you believe it is— look, I never hit my kids or slapped them or whatever, spanked them, whatever the word is. I'm not sure I was right. By the way, talk about an issue people ask whether you've changed your mind. I've changed my mind on this issue. I believe that done properly— I've spoken to so many people who got spankings or the parent used their belt or whatever it is, and as awful as it sounds, these people turn out to be very wonderful In most of the wonderful adults I know, uh, this was done to them at some point when they were a kid. Now, does it justify always? Of course not. Of course not. But sometimes. That's all my point is. As soon as you say sometimes the ends justify the means, drop the cliché. They don't always justify the means. Of course not. But often they do. That's all I'm saying. So just drop this notion that the ends never justify the means. It was raised in the editorial of the Los Angeles Times condemning the removal of the Honduran would-be dictator, Zelaya. And I said, no, even if he was a would-be dictator, the ends don't justify the means. What were the means? The Supreme Court of Honduras ordered ordered this, that the man be removed from power. All right, final segment coming up, and happily receive your emails. This is exactly the sort of reason people subscribe to this show at Prager Utopia, $7 a month.

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You found the reason to live on and not to die. You are a lucky man. Preachers and poets and scholars don't know it. Temples and statues and steeples won't show it. If you've got the secret, just try not to blow it.

Stay a lucky man.

A lucky man. If you found the meaning of the truth in this whole world, you are a lucky man.

Hi everybody, final segment of this edition. Did I have any caller who agreed with me, at least that I took? Recall, but I, I have faith, uh, in my audience that common sense, which God gave us. And it always disturbs me in my own religion or any other religion when people make statements in the name of their religion that just so violate common sense. And it's disturbing because I look to Jews and Christians as a final hope here. For the breakdown of the moral compass of humanity. And if, and if theirs starts to break, it's hard to know where to look, isn't it? And I have been discussing the issue of the cliché that the ends don't justify the means. It is true in some cases. I began with one. You want to get rid of the cockroaches in your house, you don't use the means of a bazooka. Okay, purposely picked a simple absurd one. Uh, you want to get terrorists in a house, you may have to destroy the house with a bazooka. It's unfortunate, but then, then you may have to. Man talked about torturing the 3-year-old daughter of a, uh, or son of, of a terrorist. A true terrorist would just think that the child is going to be a martyr, wouldn't say a word anyway. I mean, it's academic, as it turns out. So, and in general, of course, you don't do such a thing. But it is the ends that make us capable of judging the means in most cases. That's just the way it is, whether it's the atom bomb over Hiroshima Or it was Irina Updike sleeping with the married Nazi to save the 12 Jews. So that's, that's the opportunity one has. This is a great learning thing, by the way, uh, if you want to talk to your, your kids about great moral issues. It's whether you agree with me or not, there's a great example why people do go to Prager Utopia, which is to subscribe to this show for the grand total of $7 a month, you also get every, every day Alan's articles that he sends to me with his comments. I think that's worth more than $7 alone. And that is available at— you could download it and it's yours anytime you want, share it with anybody you want at DennisPrager.com or at PragerRadio.com. I look forward to your emails. Thank you for listening. This is Dennis Prager.

Tomorrow on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.

Today I want to talk to you about women and depression, and there are many aspects to this. This is not the only time on the Male-Female Hour that I will discuss it. And by the way, of course, you could have a show on men and depression. Uh, but the— from the perspective that I am going to deal with it today, I'm specifying women, not because only women get depressed— that is not the case, of course— but because I want to give specific reasons for female depression that you don't normally hear about.

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