Faux Vulnerability

Well, everybody, hello. Dennis and Julie. Dennis Prager, Julie Hartman. We don't miss a week. Is that correct, Jules?

Well, we miss it when we don't do it one week, but we don't miss a week. Sometimes we prerecord episodes to make sure that we're on every Monday for you.

In other words, we don't miss a week. That was the funniest response in our 20-whatever together. 38. Julie, all I said was we don't miss a week.

I know.

And then you offered this Maimonidean explanation.

Was it really that good? I mean, I'll take it, but I think you're overcomplimenting me here.

Yeah, because it wasn't meant as a compliment. I admit it. By the way, you're a ribbable woman, which is not—

I know.

I got to say, it's not the norm. My wife is ribbable.

Yes, she is.

It does happen. But men are wary about ribbing women.

And rightfully so. You should not rib a woman because I—

And by the way, and women, women don't rib women.

Oh no. Oh, that's an act of warfare. You do not do that.

Well, I have the perfect example. It— when first of all, my rule, when men insult each other, it means they love each other, right? There was no comparison. That doesn't exist in the female world. Guy shows up dressed up at a wedding and you go, God, you look ugly.

Oh, if you said that to a woman, she would run to the bathroom and start crying. Because I've seen it happen before. I can tell you.

But no, but it wouldn't— it wouldn't happen. That's the point. And if you— you're close— you would lose your closest friend if you said that, whereas I would get even closer to my closest male friend by saying that.

See, I have a theory as to why this is. I think it's because women express, uh, annoyance or aggression through being snarky.

Did you just say annoyance?

Did I just say annoyment?

That is precious.

You guys, this is horrible.

This is one of the great moments of my—

Dennis lives for these moments. How many of them have we had on the show?

Annoyment.

Oh no, is that precious?

Annoyance.

Edit it out, Sean, edit it out.

Okay, go ahead. Hey, you know what, annoyment.

Yeah, just because he's He's ribbing me here and he's highlighting this. I just, I would like to expose him for a minute.

Yeah. How so?

I have corrected you several times on, on, uh, no, graduated from college and you still do it. You still do it.

I am looking at you, my audience right now. I want to know, is there a difference between the error of he graduated high school in 2012 versus he graduated high school from high school in 2012 versus annoyment.

Oh, you are bad.

Okay, because that means that I'm right. No, you are bad is, is Julie speak for you're right.

This is my first time ever saying annoyment. It is your 50th time.

Yes, I know, but 50 trivia doesn't equal— I loved it, actually. I just had to note for the audience.

All right, all right.

Okay, go ahead. Yeah. Do you remember what we were talking about?

Yes. I'm saying the way that women express that they are annoyed with one another or that they are not pleased with one another is through being passive-aggressive and snarky.

That's right.

So men, and I appreciate this about men, are a lot more direct when they have a problem with a fellow male. Women go the passive-aggressive snarky route. So if you're ribbing someone, a woman takes it as you're being snarky or passive-aggressive. They don't take it as a loving or fun exchange.

Which is fine. Fine. So this is not a criticism, it's just a fact that began when I ribbed you and said you are a ribbable woman, which is high praise.

It is high praise. Wow, it is. I know, I'm taking it. Look at me. I know, it's pretty unbelievable. And maybe this shows a lot of personal growth. Maybe I'll let Sean keep in that mistake I made. Annoyment. How about that? And we're only 5 minutes in. 2 moments of personal growth.

So I want everybody to know this is a very exciting time in my life.

Yes, it is. The reason is one you will not expect.

Tell them what you do less or care about.

Right.

Well, I am auditioning new speakers for my audio system. System. Yes, very expensive new speakers, I might add.

Just so our viewers know, Dennis does not— and I love this about you, you're very unpretentious— Dennis doesn't spend a lot of money on— yeah, really anything, right? The one thing that he will spend copious amounts of money on is these music systems. Yes, these glorious music speakers.

And not just speakers— preamps, amps, wires, interconnects.

Yeah, all the things that go over my head.

Yes, exactly.

But the first—

But I want you to, oh yeah, you're gonna tell about your reaction?

Yes.

Go ahead.

The first time I ever went to Dennis's house when I worked with him two summers ago, he, you know, I was expecting we were gonna go in and be professionals and go, you know, to the office and read through newspapers and do, you know, intellectual things. And Dennis goes, no, I'm taking you upstairs to my music room. And he has this room in his house that is just filled with these futuristic looking, music speakers. And I have to tell you, I was a little bit skeptical when you said, you said to me, what's your favorite song? I'm going to play it for you. And it is going to be just as good, if not better, than if you were sitting in the first row at a concert. And I was skeptical. I had him play Piano Man by Billy Joel, because all of you know, I love Billy Joel. And it truly moved me to tears.

Yes, literally. It was, I would say, at least half the people I bring upstairs, to hear that, tears well up in their eyes.

And by the way, I'm really a good person to vouch for this system because I have been lucky enough to be in the first row at a Billy Joel concert.

I'm using your example.

Yes.

You said to me this either was as good or better.

It's better actually, because, and again, I don't wanna sound ungrateful. I know how lucky I was to be in that first row of the concert, but it actually isn't the most pleasant experience. Being in the first row of a concert like that because the speakers are right there. Oh, and it's really— it's abrasive. You're right, it actually hurts your ears. So anyway, it was just spectacular. So how were they last night?

So it's very painful. I really wanted them to be much better than the ones I own, and I don't think they are. So these poor guys— I know, it's why I try. And these poor— they're 150 pounds each.

Wow. So no one can steal them with ease.

Oh, that is not a danger. Next light question. You went back to Boston.

Yes.

So I have a few questions.

Yes.

Some are more serious than others, but they're all somewhat serious. First of all, you went ostensibly for the Harvard-Yale game. So explain to me— I have no idea, and certainly I'm sure most of of those listening, why is that a big deal every year?

It's a big deal because Harvard students don't party and Harvard-Yale is the one event where the entire school comes out and for this, for this one game. And it's also a tradition that if, if the game is hosted at Harvard, everyone from Yale comes to Harvard and vice versa because it rotates every year where the game is. So I would say it's really the one time a year where you feel unified as a school.

Oh, that is interesting.

Yeah, it is. And you know, I was—

What percentage of the student body shows up?

Oh, close to 100%. It's a really, really big deal.

So we're talking thousands and thousands.

Yes. So actually, a lot of us couldn't get tickets to the game. I got a ticket.

I would think.

Yeah. No, because also alums come, not just Harvard alums, but Yale alums. It's a big deal. And I love it because—

So are half the seats reserved for the other team?

Yeah. Half of— yeah, half.

And where— so what is it? Is it a— is there a Harvard Stadium? What is it?

Yes.

Or, or just a Cambridge Stadium?

Harvard Stadium.

So is it fun?

It's so much fun. Again, it's Harvard students don't really care about football. Oh, it was so funny before the show. Dennis said, so who won?

Yes. Like, isn't that a normal question? Well, you never told me. You said, what a male question.

Yeah. Yale won. None of us care about who won. Oh, no, no, no.

I didn't. I knew Yale. You told me Yale won. No, no. I asked, what was the score? Yes. Oh, please, you have no clue.

That's like asking me how many NHL teams there are, if I could name more than one. I have no idea.

Clear. So you had a good time?

I had a good time.

Was it freezing?

It was freezing. It was just brutally cold. Then again, I've gotten used to the LA weather, but it was, it was almost unbearably cold.

I wonder, does it ever occur, and is it even a legitimate question, That was November. I mean, we're talking mid-November, which is still the middle of fall. This is not at all winter, and it was freezing. How heretical is it to ask, if there is that much global warming taking place, why was it freezing in November?

Well, the lefties would respond to you and say it's not just global warming, it's climate change.

Okay, well, alright, that's when we enter the Twilight Zone, right? Okay, okay, right. They're worried about global warming. They change it to climate change. It doesn't matter. They— it was a dishonest change of words. So did you see your roommates? Because I'm always interested in you and your roommates, because that's when we began the broadcast.

Yes, yes, I did see my roommates.

All 7? Is it 7?

Uh, there are 6 of us total, so I have 5 others.

So you saw all 5?

I saw all 5.

Was it nice?

Oh, it was so much fun. It was It was just great. And we were all reflecting on the fact that no one right now is really thriving after college. The transition between college and real life is a hard one. It's sort of a slap in the face, if I'm being honest. And it was nice to sit with all of them and commiserate because all of us are trying to—

But it wasn't, it's not been a slap for you.

No, I mean, in some ways it has, but it's been far less of a slap for me because I, Unlike most of my roommates, I love my job. I have such a close relationship with you and with our producers, and I, I feel like I have a lot of good things to say, and I find a lot of meaning in my job. But still, I mean, it's, it's hard from going from an environment— college is a cocoon where everything is structured. Your social life is built in, your classes are built in, and you don't have to make a living. You don't have to make a living and you know what you have to do. You have to do well in school. And that's, that's kind of your life.

Right.

And then when you graduate and the whole world opens up to you, it's both liberating and daunting because you have to figure out what your goal is. You have to figure out what, you know, what the thing you're aiming for to accomplish every weekend.

Without saying their names, what is each doing now?

One of them is working at a, actually two of them are working at very well-known financial firms in New York. In New York.

When I think of going into the financial—

I know—

workplace and in New York City, I— it's without— I don't want to— I don't want to overstate the case. It's hard for me to imagine a worse fate I mean, I'm not talking torture, death, disease, obviously, but within the realm of the likely or the possible, I can't think— there is nothing about it that strikes me as positive. I think I don't like New York City. I grew up there. I liked it for a while, and then I grew up, and the financial world. See, unless you truly define happiness as material success, what, what does it hold for you?

Well, we Harvard students place a huge premium on names, and I think that many— I mean, my— those two roommates of mine are not anomalies. The vast majority of my graduating class goes on to these big financial institutions and they're miserable. And the thing is, and I've been reflecting on this a lot, there was— we didn't really have any role models in college, or certainly for me, not in high school, of someone who would tell us, you know, this isn't the route that you should go. I know it seems enticing because it's a, it's a big name. It looks good on your resume.

And good money.

And good money. But we look obviously at a certain point, even if you don't have good role models, you need to be able to look inside yourself and Campus may be, you want to validate.

But they wouldn't invite someone onto campus to say that. I would have gone and said it.

We have zero people, not professors, not teaching fellows, not speakers, even suggesting something related to that idea.

Well, that's why I said on The Young Turks, which drove them crazy more than anything else I said, if a young woman got up in a high school or college class when they asked, what do you want to do with your life? Said, well, my, My greatest ambition is to find a good man, get married, and make a family. She would be regarded as bizarre. Right. I don't know if they wouldn't beat her up or anything, but you must be a loser. That's what I think.

And that woman's response on The Young Turks to you, as an aside, I thought was so funny. She goes, where's your data for that? Oh God. Like, you can make observations about everyday life.

Right, no, they can't.

That's what they're taught.

Yes. Oh God, I love the fact that fact that you picked up—

oh, well, it said everything about it. The Prager Cruise is coming together again after 2 years of waiting, going to the gems of Southeastern Europe from May 31st to June 13th. That's 13 days of a combined land and cruise on AMA Waterways, privately chartered for Dennis and his listeners. This cruise was just announced and it's completely sold out, but you can get on the waiting list by calling 1-800- 345-2483 today. Click on the banner on Dennis's website or go to coastline travel.com. There's a pre-cruise in Vienna and Budapest, cruising in Serbia, Bulgaria, and Romania, and a post-cruise in Bucharest included in the trip. There's also 4 private lectures with Dennis Prager and Alan Estrin, nightly cocktail receptions, spacious staterooms, over 80% with balconies, chef's table experiences included, Open seating dining options, beverages including champagne, select wines, beer, and nightly specialty cocktails, unique local entertainment, complimentary tours in each port, and unlimited free Wi-Fi on the boat. Again, this cruise is sold out, but you can get on the waitlist today by calling 1-800-345-2483 or click on the banner on Dennis's website or go to CoastlineTravel.com. We talked about this a few episodes ago. People aren't really curious anymore. You mentioned that whenever you sit on a plane next to someone or you're in an Uber or taxi.

That's right. Oh yeah, you've heard that story.

Yes, yes, well, you said it on this program a few weeks ago. You said, you know, sometimes I'll say, oh, I'm giving a speech or I'm—

And nothing happens.

And nothing happens. And that's been the same with me. And believe it or not, that's the situation that I'm in a lot with some of my friends. They don't kind of go deeper and ask me more questions about my job. I don't really know why. I don't know if it's that I give off the vibe, if you will, that I don't want to talk about it.

No, it's that people are not curious about others, I think.

No.

I don't understand that. It's not a good sign. No. All right, so tell me about the other three.

Well, before I do that, I just want to make this other point because I think it's important with regard to the obsession my peers have of going into these big fancy firms. We are the most, as Harvard students, we are the most privileged cohort in the country, and that means the world. We, I mean, Harvard has such a vast network of people in many different industries. We have so many resources. Honestly, if you're at Harvard, it's more likely than not that you come from a family that is financially well off. And that to me is all the more damning why those people go into a financial services industry. I have a peer at Harvard who both of his parents died before college. He grew up in the Bronx. He has to care for his 10-year-old sister. And he went on to one of these companies because he needed to make really big money off the bat. Totally understand that. I would do the same thing if I were in his position. But most of my friends, Dennis, who go into these lines of work, they're not in that position. They could take a risk. It's not a do-or-die situation for them, and yet they still go and work at— I'm saying Goldman because that's not where my two friends are working. They go and work at a place like Goldman.

Clearly. Okay, the other three?

The other three, uh, two are unemployed.

And the reason? If you're unemployed after graduating Harvard, it's your—

From?

Thank you.

Time, 51.

If you graduate Harvard from— you've really chosen to be unemployed. And the fifth one?

The fifth one, I'm very proud of her. She moved to a southern state and she's working at a local newspaper as a crime reporter. She really wanted to take a risk, go off the beaten path. She loves journalism.

What a nice thing to hear.

Right? She's one of the only people—

Are you surprised?

With her? No, I'm not surprised that she did it because I know her well and she's the type to do it.

Where in the South?

South Carolina.

Fascinating. She's a crime reporter for a South Carolina paper.

Yeah. Let's just say it's a depressing job for her.

Well, it's a— it's a— how could it not be a depressing job?

Right.

But, but okay. But at least it's a— it's real life.

Exactly.

New York Financial job. It's not real life. Here's another interesting— I don't think you could have an answer to this, but I wonder, taking 6 roommates, male roommates, same proportion doing whatever they're doing, so 2 in the financial markets in Manhattan, are they happier than the girls? I mean, you can offer obviously a theoretical response.

Well, I think men in general are happier than women.

Right, and that's a very fair point. And although, you know, it's a very mixed bag because considerably more men commit suicide than women.

So that's— yeah, that's very— why do you think that is?

Well, the interesting— to make it even more interesting, and then we'll get back to this question on the happiness Considerably more women attempt suicide than men. You didn't know this? Isn't that fascinating? Far more men commit suicide and far more women attempt suicide. So the assumption is that the attempts are cries for help, right? Not really.

They don't want to really go through with it.

Yes.

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I don't know the issue. Maybe, maybe there are so many unhappy men, but you don't meet them. See, you meet the guys who've succeeded, at least on society's terms, when they leave college, good job. A lot of men, no elite college, no good job, and they're not particularly happy. So I don't know today. I think there are a lot of unhappy young people. But you're right, there are more young women. But I think that there's another reason. Work satisfies men more than it satisfies women. And to that, what I just said to you is like saying the N-word at an NAACP convention, right? Yes, to, to acknowledge the, the reality of, of how much more satisfaction men get from work alone. And that's the way we're built. That's it. We're not the same, the two sexes. And this is just another denial of reality. So women aren't doing what will bring them all that much happiness, and they don't know it. And you— and if you tell them, they get angry at you. Okay, anyway, so I was just curious about your roommates. I find it fascinating. I know I'm going back on this point, that they didn't inquire of you. You're doing by far—

yes, they don't—

more interesting thing than maybe anyone but the crime reporter.

I mean, they didn't really inquire about her either, right?

No. Well, this is your point. They're not curious.

It, it really is something I've been thinking so much about because I— we had that discussion on this program a few weeks ago, and it wasn't a lot long one, but it made me really think, you're right, people aren't curious. And so this weekend when I went back to Harvard and I was running into people left and right who I used to go to school with, haven't seen in 6 months, I had kind of an ear out for what we were discussing. And it's really true. I would try to kind of go deeper, ask them, are you happy? How are you feeling about your life? What's the transition been like?

And you hit a wall.

Hit a wall. They won't answer about themselves, and God knows they won't reciprocate the questions. They'll just say, oh, how's, you know, how's your work with Dennis? I'll go, good. And they'll go, good. Nothing deeper. See, when I, when I'm in front of my roommate who's a crime reporter, I want to say, no, of course, tell me the most interesting, you know, crime that you've reported on, or what's, you know, what's something you've learned. No one asks those questions anymore.

Had you said Oh yeah, I'm out in California. I'm actually working for a mortician. So they— oh, that's nice.

Yeah, no, that's what they would say. They would go, oh cool, oh cool, right? Or they go, do you ever get queasy about, you know, touching dead bodies? That would, that would be the question.

You would think—

well, they, they might ask that, but then that would be it. Maybe there's one, one question, one vague, not getting too deep question.

All right, so let's go let's go deeper ourselves. I, I was going to say, why do you think that is? And then I thought, I'd like to tell you something. I got to show you my diary from high school. I think you'd find it fascinating. I'm sure you'd find it fascinating given how close we are and given this. So I remember writing, because I remember, and I remember thinking, my peers are— what was the term? Cool. They're, they're, they're almost all emotionally cool. And what I meant was, what you're describing now is emotionally cool.

Yeah, it is.

It's not normal, at least in our view, your and mine, not to inquire further. But it's— so why were they like that already then? I think it's partially fear of life. I can't fully articulate this, but I believe that that's a factor. Once you get under the surface, vulnerability— that's it, vulnerability gets in. And you should be invulnerable, at least emotionally. It's all bizarre because there's all this vulnerability to racism and sexism and misogyny and homophobia. I mean, all of a sudden then everybody's hyper-vulnerable.

Well, it's It's a faux vulnerability.

It's faux vulnerability.

It's not real. Honestly, I think a lot of the stories are made up when people are being vulnerable about these occurrences, at least at a place like Harvard when someone talks about this instance of racism.

I reported on my radio show at USC at the business school, business school, professor of business management was talking about communication and about fillers. In speaking. Um is a filler. Uh, um, er, like, you know, these are fillers. And he said he knows some Chinese. In Chinese, there's a filler, and he explained the term. And the Chinese word, uh, I think it was something like nge, sounded like the n-word, but of course it was Chinese. You don't know. The Black students demanded his removal for a Chinese word that sounded like the English N-word.

That's spelled NG.

Yes.

Yes. I've encountered that word before. I've heard someone say it sounded like the N-word, but I mean, yeah.

So this is faux— what was your term?

Vulnerability.

Yeah, faux vulnerability. But I think the Getting below the surface is vulnerable. Does that make sense?

Of course. Oh, I say all the time that I think we're deadened and diminished. I can't identify, I can identify how we're deadened and diminished. I'm struggling a bit to identify why, but it's no secret that people my age, for instance, are obsessed, enslaved to their phones. And I've, I've tried to contemplate why, because at least in college, periodically my peers and I would have discussions about this phenomenon, about how all of us are just glued to our phones. And we would acknowledge that it was odd, and we would acknowledge that it's gotten out of control, but the conversation would have kind of a natural end. And the natural end would be, oh well, this is the world we're living in now. No one would really kind of let it process that this is something that is really taking away from our full experience of life. And crucially, no one would try to do anything to fix it. No one at the end of the conversation would say, you know what, I should really delete my social media, or I should really get a flip phone instead of an iPhone because—

Or limit my time to X number of hours a day.

Of course. Well, that's a bit harder to do because sometimes you're not conscious of it. That you're, that you're doing it. But anyway, no one would take active steps to combat it. And what it shows is they didn't really want to combat it. And I think people are grateful, just in the same way I remarked on your radio program two summers ago, that I think people were oddly grateful for COVID and the lockdowns because it gave them an excuse to stay in their homes, to stay on their phones, and not go out and do the hard work that's required to live a full life. I think That's the same thing with social media. It's a way, when you're on social media, you can just kind of allow your mind to drift and be distracted. And it's a way for you to avoid considering, am I living my life well? What should I be doing differently?

So I'm gonna tell you a related anecdote from my life. I've always been a member of a gym. And when I was in my 40s, I was a member of a gym. And now, much later, I'm— I was a member of a gym till the lockdowns, and then I quit because they insisted on masks, and I wasn't going to work out with a mask. So I have a trainer come, as you know, 3 days a week to my home. But I'm— so I saw a very interesting difference. So that's 30 years ago. So 30 years ago, it was common to see almost everybody talking to one another at some point. I'm talking about the people who came to work out and maybe even trainers, but I'm just looking— it would be normal. Male, male, male, female, female, female. You just, you know, How you doing? What are you doing? What, you know, what exercises do you work out? What? I don't know what it would be. People talked. I made it a point to look at my gym a few years ago prior to the lockdowns. Not one person was talking to one person. Not one.

You're considered a weirdo if you talk.

That's correct. That's right.

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And by the way, certainly vis-à-vis men and women, men know that. They know they'll be regarded as a weirdo. I mean, not from— not talking about anything inappropriate, of course, just coming over and talking, chit-chatting, anything. But nobody— and I'm thinking of it because you mentioned social media. So half the women, certainly more women than men, are working out with earphones, and it's their way of saying, don't talk to me. That's new.

I'm just sitting here thinking, and I don't want to sound like I'm pitying myself, I know what a blessed life I have, but boy, has my generation missed out on a lot. We never knew a time like that. We've only known the time when you go to the gym or you go on an airplane and you do— you militantly do not talk to people.

Oh, so you have no idea what a sensitive subject you just touched. When you just said we have no idea what we missed out on, is that what you just said?

Yeah, yeah.

That's my message to your generation. I grew up in a different planet, on a different planet. Than you did.

Take me to that planet.

Oh, you—

I want to go there.

There were so many few— look, everybody always had parent issues, friend issues, you know, social issues, love issues, but there were no macro issues.

What do you mean by that?

Your issues were on the personal level. They weren't, oh, I'm fighting racism, I'm fighting sexism, I'm fighting homophobia, and it's momophobia, because you were fighting yourself. That's right. Yes, exactly. Like, I could spend time on my world, and you said what you wanted. There was— you didn't have to worry about being, being— what is— not just on— what did we say today? Unwoke? But yeah, vulnerable.

We were talking about—

no, no, but you— today people are worried about what they say is being perceived as insulting, right, and whatever. So I often think of the, the world you didn't see.

So let me— I, I want to go back to this subject. It's related but a little different, but I want to ask you, were people smarter back then? Has society gotten dumber?

Well, it's gotten dumber than I think my parents' generation, which is really going back now. Already the baby boomers, which is what I'm part of, Look, my proof of how dumb many of my generation were is the famous comment, never trust anyone over 30. You have to be an idiot to say that. I mean, that's truly moronic. You, you really believe that at 27 you are going to come up with the answers to life better than people who live 3 times longer than you? Let alone people who lived 1,000 years before you. That is the belief of the left. We are wiser, finer, better than anyone who lived before us. It is an astonishing thing to me because I've always believed that I'm just— to the extent that I'm anything, I'm standing on the shoulders of preexisting giants.

Right.

Not, you know, we're the smartest, wisest. When you crap on Washington, Jefferson, even Lincoln, you're really out of it. I mean, you're an intellectual fraud. Anyway, so I don't know if they were smarter. That's your question? Why you think we were?

Yes. Oh, absolutely. I mean—

Smarter in what way?

Well, conversationally, as far as one's command of vocabulary and language.

Oh, that's true. Just to spell it. We knew how to spell it.

Well, exactly. I mean, you go back and you read letters that people wrote to each other from the Civil War.

Oh, okay.

And they are magnificent.

And they didn't graduate high school.

Let's graduate high school. 52. What did I say? Annoying?

You know what is annoying? You know what the annoyance here is?

Yes, the annoyance.

Is that it brings you such joy.

I'm sorry, I love it. It's because there's— I mean, I can't think of anything else you do that's incorrect.

So they didn't even graduate from high school.

Yes.

And they wrote so well.

They're magnificent. See, I think all of this that we're talking about all of these symptoms of how we're a dead-end and diminished culture, I think in large part it comes from the fact that we have had it so good as Americans in the last half century. And I realized this, it really kind of hit me like a lightning bolt when I went to Israel, which you know was just a life-changing experience. And the thing that I was so taken aback by, and I tell people this all the time, is just how spirited Israelis are. They just, even when you just talk to them, they seemed, it didn't matter, men, women, young, old, they seemed more energetic, just more, again, like as corny as it sounds, connected to the life force, connected to reality. When they talked with you, you really felt like they were listening to you. They wanted to know about you. They asked great questions. They could, you know, talk about a variety of subjects. And that's when it made me go, wow, these people, people have a lot more gusto and vibrance than we Americans do. Why is that? And I think it's because they have to experience a greater range of life than we as Americans do. They, every single day in Israel, their existence is threatened from every single border, even within their own territory. They all have to go serve in the IDF. They know every single day that life is a precious thing and that it can be taken away. And I think that has allowed them to just be fuller people in a way that we don't, we don't have, we don't have the same worries as Israelis do.

You know, my, my equation: secularism plus affluence equals boredom.

Yeah.

And that leads to bad stuff. Here is a question I would like to ask if I could interview your friends. Tell me what books you've read since you graduated from college.

It's a tragedy, Dennis. I think most would say zero.

Exactly. And these are Harvard graduates. Well, I saw that at Columbia. I told you that. I, I actually wrote a piece nobody published, but I wrote a piece while I was at Columbia that the only non-academic reading stuff they had to read to pass the course, other than that They only— they read comic books. Across the street from Columbia on Broadway and 116th, there was a comic book store.

Wow.

When I'm in an elevator, I always try to talk to whoever's in the elevator. I think it's a beautiful thing to talk to strangers. I taught my boys to do that, and I do that. So I'm in an elevator with a young person and they spend the entire time in the elevator looking at their phone. It's depressing. It's actually— I think it's depressing to see that the existence of another human 2 feet away is not acknowledged.

Well, you said a few minutes ago that you think a lot of this is a fear of life. I would concur. And I would also say, you know, remember a few episodes we were talking about how if you don't think there's an afterlife, there's really no logical incentive to behave well? Because if you're just a secular humanist materialist, if you don't think that there are going to be consequences for your actions, it is kind of a rational thing to do to cheat on a test or to cut the line because, you know, you should just get ahead. There's nothing at the end of the rainbow that's judging you. I think that also can be applied to the way that you live your life. If someone thinks that there's no afterlife, or someone thinks that we're all just here because of random chance, or because of science, life is devoid of meaning, then it makes sense for them to be on their phones. It makes sense for them to not read great novels, because life is just a stupid scientific random thing that we get our time here on Earth and then we're done and that was it. So I think there's been an erosion of the preciousness of life. We don't view life as a gift. We don't view it as a fascinating and challenging adventure. We don't consider that there are so many interesting books, people, ideas, artwork, just things out there. It's like opening a treasure chest and having a bounty. People don't think about that. They just think life is to be endured and then you're done.

Look, I agree. Whenever I talk this way or think this way, I think, well, didn't every generation lament the next generation? And isn't that what I'm involved in here now? But I don't— I think this qualitatively different. There's no doubt in my mind it's qualitatively different.

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So I think it is different today. This is not, oh, you know, silly fashions of this next generation or whatever. I'm not even addressing, let's say, something like tattoos, which were very uncommon in my generation. No, and my lament is not critical of your generation. It's actually a criticism of my generation for not teaching what matters in life. But I can't think of a barometer that gives one reason for celebration with developments that have taken. Are kids happy or no? Are kids— do kids know more? No. Do they read more? No. Do they write as well? No. I mean, I would like to know what the people who are happy with this generation generally would be people more on the left because they vote the way they want and think the way they want. Give me an example of where they are better than previous generations.

Their answer to you would be they're more tolerant.

That's exactly what they would say. That's exactly right.

And you know what? Maybe— I mean, it's funny.

No, they're not more.

They're not more tolerant.

No, they're certain. They're more tolerant of certain people and less tolerant of others. So.

Right.

But anyway, that's it. That's the sum total of life.

Well, you were just saying that you more so blame your generation because in your words—

Well, I really blame my parents' generation, right? And not my parents, but my parents' generation, definitely.

Right.

The, the so-called— and I don't say that at all negatively, they were a great generation with World War II and the Depression— but the greatest generation did not know how to raise children with the right values. In other words, they didn't teach what made them great.

And you just said about a minute or two ago that they didn't teach what's important in life, and I was thinking You know, even in school, I never in a class had a teacher who sort of in a meta way zoomed out and explained why this particular subject was important. For instance, at Harvard, I was very lucky and took just a phenomenal political philosophy course. I really challenged myself to do it and it was hard, but now I've really reaped the benefits from it. But still, On the first day of class, we just go into the subject. We're going to be talking about Machiavelli's The Prince today. Wouldn't it have been nice if we had spent the first 5 minutes or 10 minutes of the class and the teacher said, this is a modern philosophy class. We— even just if he had said the following sentence: we are going to be learning from the best thinkers in the past and see what kind of wisdom they can provide to us about how to live better lives. And these people have built on the wisdom of others before them. In other words, we're learning about a tradition that is intended to make us all better live. Relevant.

It's relevant.

It's like, never was that sentence said.

No, correct.

And just that one sentence would've made a world of difference, not just for me, but for my peers in going, so when you read Machiavelli or when you read Locke.

It's a good advertisement for the book. The Rational Bible. Oh, I'm sorry, I know it sounds self-serving. All I do the whole time is say why this will matter to your life.

I've never—

I mean, everything, everything that I write in there, and, and it was not done in my education. You're entirely right, that was exactly what was missing. Why is this relevant to me?

Even in a math class, if, if someone had just—

oh well, that I certainly didn't expect. No, right?

No, you're right. Any class, just tell me why this is relevant to me and why, why it's important that I'm learning this.

I taught— you know, I'm always assuming that you know everything about me, but thank God you still don't. So here's a fun story for you. So when I was at graduate school, so I lived in Manhattan because Columbia is in Manhattan, but I had a job in Brooklyn. I taught Hebrew school. Just like, you know, there's Sunday school for Christian kids, there's Hebrew school for Jewish kids. So I taught them. I would do the trek all the way from the top of Manhattan down to the, basically the bottom of Brooklyn, and I taught them. These kids wanted to be in class like, like I would like to, I don't know, beekeep. I don't know what, what good analogy there might be. Yet I knew And so I was like 20, I was your age, and they, and they were 15. There was very little difference, although at that age it's a lot, but it doesn't matter anyway. I knew they didn't want to be there. The parents made them go there. And I said to them the first day, and I remember their faces, I said You do not have to show up in my class. I hereby announce this the first day. You have to pass the exam. If you read it on your own and learn it, that's fine. But it, it is my duty to make you so interested that you will come of your own volition. They had never heard that from a teacher in their lives, obviously. And that, that's what I believed. I don't want you here solely because your parents force you. I need to earn your attendance and attention by being interesting, by making it relevant. And they came.

Wow. Well, look, I do think in— this was Hebrew school— in elementary school or high school, you do, you as a student do have an obligation to go.

I wish teachers felt an obligation to do what you said. Said, this is why this is important. Otherwise, why am I studying it? If it's not important, why am I studying?

See, I don't think they understand why.

No, they don't.

They don't understand why this is important. That's not why they're telling— yeah, I feel like all of— I know this sounds really harsh, but I just feel like so many of us, on, on both the, the teachers, the students, we're all just kind of ghosts. Like, we're all just partaking in the— teachers know they have to teach, the students know they have to go to class to pass the exam. Like, there's no Again, there's no greater connection to life.

So there's a film. Yes, it's just— you will love the analogy. There's a film called Blowup from a long time ago, a very major— and I don't know much film, I just know this— Antonioni was the director, big Italian director, if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, there's a scene of two people playing tennis without a tennis ball. That is what you're describing. It was a metaphor for the modern age, a tennis game without a tennis ball.

Well, you know something else I've noticed, and this is— this in just conversation is a tennis game without a tennis ball. When I— whenever I go to the store and I'm checking out, the cashier goes, hi, how are you? And I go, good, how are you? They go, "Good." Or when I go to the bank, "Hi, how are you?" "Good, how are you?" "Good." It's like, imagine if you actually answered the way you really are. What if you said, "Actually, my grandfather died last week." It's this weird meaningless exchange.

Well, so I give them the benefit of the doubt on that one.

I'm not blaming them, I do the same thing. I do the same thing.

In America, How are you is hello.

Yes, it is.

That's how I look at it. They're not inquiring as to how you are.

Right. Well, I'll give you an example.

I mean, imagine, you're right, I mean, what if, well, actually, my beloved cousin just died in a terrible car crash.

Sometimes, one time I just wanna do that just to see the person's reaction.

I know, right?

Right. No, I'm not saying that as blaming the person. I do it myself, but it's just something I've reflected on because it's not genuine. Also, my mom will love that I'm talking about this because this is one of her biggest pet peeves. The way that our language has slipped in general, but especially with the way that we describe things. For instance, a lot of my friends say, oh my gosh, I had the most amazing lunch. Or the mo—

Oh, you mean the hyperventilating in language?

Yes.

Well, what about the word awesome?

Exactly. It used to be, okay, inspire awe.

Yes, but not anymore. Right now it just means the waitress will say, what are you having?

Exactly.

I'll have an egg salad sandwich. Awesome. And I'm thinking, it's not awesome. It doesn't even approach awesome.

Or yeah, or people say the most amazing, you know, XYZ.

That's right.

You hear that it's—

I tried good in my 40 years of broadcasting. I've tried to to avoid that because ultimately you're taken less seriously. You sort of cried wolf with language.

Yes, and also, you know, I was saying in the last episode, if you want to be an honest person in general, it has to start small. It has to start on a granular level. It has to stop or start with, in the case of me, not running the stop sign, you know, stopping when there's a stop sign. In all areas of life, living an honest life. I think that's the same with, with the way that you speak. If you speak in hyperbole, then you'll think about things in hyperbole. You'll think about— if you speak in an unclearly, you'll think about things unclearly. So when I have a sandwich, if I think it was really good, I'll try to resist doing the conventional modern thing and saying I had an amazing sandwich. I'll try to say I had a very good, really good—

I had a delicious sandwich because the way I speak, the way I think, far more effective. In communicating. I know that I come across more real— not forgetting just more real— more effectively by understating than by overstating. It's just a mistake people make thinking overstating has a bigger impact, but it doesn't. That was an awesome sandwich means to someone nothing. That was a really delicious sandwich really sounds like it was delicious.

And you know, another thing that people do, and I don't know if this is just people my age or if people who are older than I do this too, but for instance, in college, it was very common when you would run into someone on the street and you didn't know what else to say or how to end the interaction, you'd go, we should get lunch sometime. And then the person would go, yeah, we should. And it was this weird mutual understanding that you were never going to get lunch.

Yeah, that's another thing not to say. I agree.

Dennis has been so gracious. He's met several of my friends and you've loved all of them.

Yeah, why have I been gracious?

Because you've had them to Shabbat dinner. We went backstage at one of your speeches. You're so lovely to all my friends.

Okay, if that makes me gracious, I'm gracious.

You are. Take it.

I find it fascinating to meet your friends, among other things. I mean, aside from they're just nice people, which speaks the world about you. So I'll end with my mirrors theory that I— have I said it on the broadcast?

No, you haven't, but I've read it.

Okay, fine. Yeah, no, I know you know it, but, uh, so I think there are three mirrors in life: mirror of your mind, the mirror of your character, and the mirror of your body, obviously. So the mirror of your body, your face, is a regular physical mirror. What is the mirror of your mind? That's the one that first hit me, is writing. Everybody listening to this should know, you want to know what's in your mind and whether you think clearly, write. Not for publication, just write. And then see, or hand it to a friend and see if it makes sense. Write on any subject, what you think about I don't know, the afterlife. It doesn't have to be politics, doesn't matter what it is. Anyway, writing is the mirror of the mind, and, and the people you draw into your life are the mirror of your character. So you draw really fine people into your life.

Ditto.

Okay, thank you. But I, I agree.

And the fact— I mean, we're, we're proof for each other.

Well, I think that is true.

Yes.

But if people lament, why do I have all these, these people who end up hurting me in my life? You have to look inward, right? Why do you attract them to begin with?

Well, relatedly, I know that this podcast is a quality podcast because of the, the, the quality of emails that I get from people.

Entirely accurate.

It's— it really— I talked about it during our last episode. It just blows me away how open people are, how kind, how smart. I mean, Our listeners send me books, they send me articles. It's, it's incredible. So, so we, we attract pretty good— this podcast attracts good people.

That is entirely accurate. I just want to say on the smart, I developed a theory very early in my broadcast life based on what you just said, and it was never underestimate underestimate the intelligence of your listeners and never overestimate their knowledge. And that has been a great guideline for me. I never speak down to my listeners. No, I, I, I know there are many bright people listening. What may not be as many knowledgeable people, which is a tragedy of our educational system.

Right. And what I appreciate about you, I just heard you say this the other day, someone called in and said, did you know that the American Medical Association XYZ did it? And the person seemed smart, but you, to your credit, didn't go, oh my gosh, you guys, did you hear that? Did you hear what that guy just said? You said, oh, I'll have to check on that. If that's true, then it would suggest this. In other words, you didn't take what he was saying as a given. Because he may not be right.

That's right.

So yes, you're, you're a great role model for me in many ways, but especially as I, I launch my— look at his face, he loves it— especially as I launched.

I love when young women see you as a role model. I know, I get, I get very flattering parents who tell me their 16-year-old daughter is listening to you, watching you, because they need it. Every, every, every kid needs adults That's another— I'll end with this lament about this generation. They have so few adults to look up to.

That's what I was saying at the beginning of this show. We didn't have any role models trying to steer us down a good path in life. It was just go to Goldman and then go to Harvard Law and then die an early death.

Oh, God. Oh, yeah. That was— that was what I used to say this in speeches. So here is life. You're a kid. The purpose of life is to get into a good school. You get into a good school for the purpose of getting a good job. You get a good job, what it is, and then you die.

Yes, unfortunately, that is exactly what it is.

Exactly.

You can all reach me at julie@julie-hartman.com. I love hearing from you. Again, I can't promise that I can respond to every piece of mail, but I can promise you that I read each one and And you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter @DennisJuliePod and Dennis and Julie Podcast on Facebook. We'll see you next time. And it's true, we don't miss a week.

Correct. You got time, you're on the man-bait.