God and Autism

Hey everybody, Dennis and Julie, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman, episode 20. Big— we're catching up to your age. As you noted last week. Cracks me up. Well, now that I think of it, we're getting closer to my age too. There you go. Hey, is Julie's mic on? I don't hear Julie, Sean.

Julie's mic is now on.

Julie didn't turn it on. All right.

So much for a Harvard grad.

It's the red button. Julie, I am going to ask you a super duper serious question, then you have no idea what it is. I only told you that it would be about your sister. I don't know if people know, you, you have an older sister who is autistic. But as I know, because I have an autistic stepson who lives with my wife and me, and you know him pretty well, but he, he is of course easy, as easy as a person can get. To live with. He can't live on his own, but he takes care of himself and he's actually fun.

Oh, he's so funny.

He's fun. Exactly correct. And as I note to people, he's to the right of me.

And that is true.

Yeah. Yes. And it's a riot. It's just really—

He knows a lot about politics too. Seriously.

Yes. He used to own— you know what is interesting? So people who know autistic people know that they, what they say, perseverate. Oh yes. They fixate on one subject and repeat it. So for him it was weather. About half— I know him 20 years basically, and weather was overwhelming. He'd greet you at the door and tell you about the cold weather pattern over Minnesota.

Right.

He's addicted to the Weather Channel. But that has so evolved. He is now— I would say he's more interested in politics than he is in even in weather.

Now he greets you at the door and he says, we are going down a bad path with Joe Biden as president. And what's, what's interesting to our viewers, I just want to tell you, you would think that it comes from Dennis, but it doesn't. He listens to his own shows right now.

Right.

If anything, you're telling him to come back more to the center.

Oh, it— I could even— this is truly hilarious. So a woman we, we love has worked for me and then for me and my wife. So I know I must know her 25, 30 years. I mean, she's just— she's a very special, religious, kind, responsible woman. When we go away, she stays in the house to be with, to be with Brandon. And she's, she was— she's from Mexico originally. So he's going, you know, he'll— so, but when we're not there, he just talks to her the whole day. She is, she is sort of a— she's learned her English in large measure from him. It's because he just talks on and on. Anyway, it's just hilarious when he'll say, oh, you know, all these Mexicans coming over the border.

Oh no.

And then, you know, I will quietly note to him, you know, this woman whom you love is Mexican. You know, but it's somewhat of an abstraction and they're not good at abstractions. Anyway, so to get to the serious point, so you have a sister who's not in his league in functionality. She's quite severely autistic and even on occasion you've told me that she's been violent, which he has never been. So it's a very difficult part of your life and your parents' life, your sister, and my heart goes out to all of you truly, and you know it does.

Thank you.

Well, you're welcome, but it's so heartfelt that it isn't meant, and it doesn't matter. I feel for you a lot, and your parents especially. So I have never asked you this, we've never even hinted at a discussion on it, and I don't have a clue what you'll say. So you're becoming more sophisticated in your outlook on God and life. How do you reconcile God and your sister's condition?

It's interesting that you ask this question. I asked my dad this question a few nights ago because my dad is religious. He grew up in a Lutheran household. I don't know if you know this, Dennis, but my paternal grandfather was a Lutheran minister. And my mom's side of the family is Catholic. By the way, that was kind of an event when they got married, the two families. They ended up loving each other. But it was interesting. They both had some hesitations about marrying someone. I never fully understood that because you're still Christians at the end of the day, but that's a separate conversation.

[Speaker:DENNIS PRAGER] I now understand it, but go on.

We'll talk about that after. I'm very interested to hear what you say. I asked my dad this a few nights ago, and boy, this is a bit of a tangent, but I just have to give a shout out to my dad. I think he's one of the biggest reasons why I'm a conservative. Growing up, he would talk to me about God. He would talk to me about how lucky we are to be in America. And seeing the way that he has handled, and my mom too, the way that they've handled my sister, they never solicited pity from anyone. They never wear it on their sleeve. They never use it as an excuse. It's been a huge example. To me. So the other night, I'm asking my dad what you just asked me, and he said something so, so sad and also so sweet. He said, you know, when I go to heaven— hopefully I go to heaven— I really think I will go up there and Gina will talk to me. She'll be normal and she'll talk to me and she'll say, thank you, Dad, thank you for all that you did for me. And he said, when I also get to heaven, the first question I'm going to ask God is, why did you do this to her? She's such a sweet girl. Yes, as you noted, she has had some rough times in her life, and she has been violent towards us and towards her caretaker— caretakers, excuse me. A lot of that violence, though, is because her care has been so awful, and her caretakers have historically not treated her well. She's in a government-run group home. They don't take her on walks. They don't brush her teeth. She's had to have many dental procedures because her gums have rotted. She's gained a lot of weight because again they don't have her exercise. So, so her violence has come from that. But that poor girl and what she's had to endure. Yes, we've had to endure so much, but can you imagine how, how awful her life is?

And so I don't know, it's hard for us. So this was not something I thought I'd ask, but since you raised it, how aware is she of her condition?

Oh, she's not aware at all. At all.

So then when you say she's had to endure a lot of pain, what does that mean?

Well, I'm— she—

her teeth hurt because, you know, I see what you're saying, you know, but not psychological pain.

Well, I don't know. I have no idea. We can't get inside of her head, of course. So to go back to your question about God, I got off a little bit. It's difficult for me, but I do, I do believe that he has a plan. I think it's inconceivable to us why these tragedies happen in life, but I have to believe that there's some greater meaning to it. I don't know though.

I don't know either. I was curious how you handled it, that's all. I, I have been obsessed with this question since I was in high school, which is why we talked about last week I had a very successful social life or dating life with, with women when I was single, but it wasn't successful in the sense that I ultimately wanted to find a kindred spirit. Because, uh, as I said to you, talking about reconciling God and evil is your favorite topic. Well, it was. It's— yes, it's not my favorite topic now, but it took me much of my lifetime to sort of abandon the search for the answer, right? My friend Joseph Telushkin, who I know since high school, he used to joke, if Dennis sees the word God and evil, or God and pain, or God and suffering, he buys the book.

You know, I just asked Dennis before— or sorry, not Dennis, well, I did ask you, Sean, I meant to say Sean— before this episode, do we talk about religion too much on this podcast? That was one of the things I'm wondering, but it's so an interest for both of us.

Nobody ever asks, are we too secular in this broadcast? It's—

That's a good thing.

No, it's really, it's so sad.

I know.

So I went to Columbia for graduate school and I was a stamp collector earlier in my life. And there was a stamp issued, I think in the '50s, a U.S. stamp honoring Columbia University on, I don't know, whatever anniversary it was. And so I learned a lot from stamps, a tremendous amount, because I always read about what the stamp, whether it was American or any other country, what it commemorated. And it said, oh, Columbia was founded in whatever year it was, it was probably 17-something. And it was founded to teach 4 subjects. I don't remember what they were, but I remember one was theology. In other words, the study of God was central to every great university.

I think Harvard was originally founded as a solely religious institution.

Exactly, exactly. We've gone to the other extreme.

We have.

So I like your father's reactions. I mean, you know, he will ask God why that happened. Of course, God may say— I have no idea what God will say— but God could say, well, in fact, it might have been man-made. I won't go further, right? But right, God might say, I didn't do it. On the other hand, it doesn't matter because There are many things that God has responded to. Earthquakes. Man didn't make earthquakes, or tornadoes, or tsunamis, or typhoons, or tornadoes, or cancer. I mean, you know, maybe some cancers have been induced by the environment or our food, but, you know, look, suffering, you know, what— Beethoven went deaf. Was it man-made? He went deaf because of natural causes. Right. I do reflect though on this, and that there was a lot more suffering in the past than today, compared certainly to the Western world today.

Yes.

And they, they were not as hounded by this question as we are. I mean, though I want to say the earliest book of the Bible, according to scholars is Job, which is all about unjust suffering and the question of God. So it clearly has always bothered people, but it didn't bother them enough to say there is no God. Some did, right? There's a psalm that says, "Only fools say there is no God." It's one of my favorite lines. But they saw so much suffering. I mean, do you know that I don't know which culture it was, may have been more than one culture. They didn't name a newborn until 30 days after birth.

Oh yes, I, I did know that fact, because they—

so many died, right?

Yep. You know, I think about that a lot. One of the things that I really like about my dad's response is it's a true religious person's response, because it both holds God accountable and, and recognizes that God is not perfect in our eyes. We have serious questions for him about the world that he created. But also, I like the part of it when he talks about his duty. When he says, "When I go to heaven, Gina will say to me, 'Thank you,' and God will commend me for what I've done." I really like the two parts of that answer. And it just speaks to the contradictions that we have to reconcile as religious people. Not even just religious people. People in the world. The world is full of contradictions. You know, God, God has levied a really terrible thing on our family and on Gina. But also, look how blessed I am. It's, it's something that I think about.

Right. But of course, some people say the very unfairness and imbalance of it is a, is a question to God. So. Right, right. You know, of course, that's why, you know, It's interesting when I, when I think about it, which is all the time. So when I think, oh, thank God, my, you know, then name someone close to me, you know, survived this, this crash. I mean, everybody would say that. A loved one is in a car crash, the other guy died, but your loved one didn't, and you go, thank God. And I'm very, very rational. That's why I call my Bible commentary The Rational Bible. So I would say thank God, but I wouldn't mean it literally because I can't assume God deliberately saved my loved one but not the other guy's loved one.

I know. I know.

All right, so—

It's difficult. You know, on the subject of Gina, I was thinking of something the other day that I've been wanting to share on this podcast, so you gave me the perfect opening for it. As you know, on the Fourth of July, I posted a message on my Instagram saying how grateful we should all be to be Americans, and I got a lot of responses, and one of the people wrote back to me and said, you know, I don't think that— she said something along the lines of, even though I benefit from being an American, there are a lot of Americans who don't benefit from being American, who are mistreated or who have really awful lives.

Who wrote this?

This was a friend of mine, or a friend from high school, responding to my America post. And she said, you know, I just think it's wrong for me to post that I love America and that I'm grateful for America.

Oh my God.

Oh, I know. I mean, there are so many things wrong with this. But her point was because there are so many Americans who don't have the same privilege that I do. So I was thinking about this, and believe it or not, Dennis, it was the first time in my entire life that this occurred to me. So many liberals and leftists I know talk about how the system fails people. You know what? For most of them, the system has not failed them. I would venture to say that out of all of my friends, my family is the one who has had the system fail them the most. I mean, you would not believe, I mean, actually you would because I've told you, but you viewers would not believe the trauma that my family has endured with Gina and her care situation. It's tragic enough that she's autistic, But because she can't live at home with us, we've had to put her in these government-run group homes. And the negligence and abuse that she has endured from her caretakers with no accountability is just— it is startling. I'll give one example. I know, Dennis, you know this story, but I want to tell it to our listeners. I was 14 years old. I came home from school one day and my— the phone rang and my dad picked it up. And it was a police officer who called our house, and he— my dad said that he heard Gina screaming in the background. And it turns out that this police officer saw Gina on the side of the 405 freeway alone, wandering on the side of the freeway, pulled over, picked her up. Thank God we have— if there's one thing that we've done throughout Gina's whole life is we've told her our home phone number and made her recite it to us. She's very limited, but she can recite our home phone number if she's asked. And it turns out that her caretakers were not paying attention to her, and she's bored. She's inside, cooped up inside that house. They're not talking to her. They're not taking her out. And she wandered out of the back door of her group home and went on the freeway about a mile away from her house. And that isn't even the— I mean, it is the most egregious part, but an equally egregious part is that when the caretakers discovered that she had left her house, they did not call the police. They got in their car and tried to find her, because if they called the police, then they would be held responsible. So they were more concerned about covering themselves.

But eventually the police were called?

No, the police found her on the side of the freeway themselves. And she, thank God, you know, he was trying to communicate with her and she's just, you know, she's so upset, she's so scared, she's yelling. And thank God she was able to recite her own phone number and then the police officer called my father. And that was, I came home and I was 14 and I learned of that. That is just, trust me, that is just one of millions of egregious stories that I could tell you. But my point is, if there is anyone who has suffered as a result of the system, it is my sister Gina. And do you know what? First of all, I'm actually very proud that I haven't had this thought before because it shows that I don't pity myself. I don't think in terms of myself being a victim. But also, what I want to say to this girl, and I don't like bringing up Gina to people because I really don't want people to think I'm pulling a card, but it is a legitimate point that I'm making here. As saddened and disgusted I am by the way that she's been treated by these government-run group homes. I am so grateful for America because I shudder to think about what her life would be like if she didn't live in this country. Think about if Gina lived— were born in a— I'm sorry, a Middle Eastern country. What would happen to her? Or born in China?

You're mature enough to compare America to other countries, not to an imaginary great place.

Yes.

That has driven me crazy my whole life.

Oh, I know.

Do you, do you people not know what it is like elsewhere?

They don't.

Do you— I'll give you a tiny example. So I, I throw this out whenever I can. I've been to 130 countries, actually 131. Forgot what— I just added one, I forgot what it was. So I, I have seen a lot. So here's a great example. In West Africa In one West African country, I'm in this van with Alan and his wife and my wife Sue. I got confused because his wife is Susie. So it's Susie and Sue.

That is confusing.

And the driver, who is of course a local, says to us, watch this. So we're driving on a regular road. And then we come to a police barricade. Why is there a police barricade? I want you to guess.

Because it's unsafe, right? They needed— right, you know, they need to monitor people coming in, right?

Right. If you came up with 10 guesses, you would not guess. And I'll tell you why you wouldn't guess, because you're an American. Most people on Earth would know why there was a police barricade.

Why?

For you to bribe the police to remove the barricade. Oh my gosh, I know we, we gave the policeman money, guy opens up the road.

Well, I was speaking with a student, this was back when I was at school, who I think he's from Nigeria, and he told me that he had to retake the SAT multiple times. And I said, oh So, you know, I had to take it 2 times because I'm a bad test taker. And he said, well, I had to retake it because my score was stolen. Because what happens is that you take the SAT and someone can pay off the, the test administrator to switch up the scores. And he said, I lost my score 2 or 3 times and I had to keep retaking it. No American could ever fathom that happening.

That's exactly right. I knew this at a very young age. I said, do you understand where we live? Do you? And they don't.

I know.

So the person who responded to— what was it, a tweet?

Just an Instagram post.

An Instagram post. So the person who responded to that, well, what about all the people who don't have privilege? They don't understand who— so my response, which would have no impact on that person, would be, who are you thinking of? Blacks, Hispanics, gays, women. Who— whom are you thinking of when you say they don't have your privilege?

Right. Well, she probably is thinking of those groups, right?

But she's out of her mind.

And again, not to pull a victim card, but it is just true. Gina suffers way more than the average person in most of those groups. Okay. When people talk to me about protecting the, you know, voiceless and defenseless, give me a break. Gina has endured negligence and abuse. And by the way, this is only stuff we know about. Imagine what we don't know about. She can't tell us, hey, they're not being nice to me.

That's right.

You know, we see bruises on her. She can't tell us where those bruises came from. And so if there's anyone who understands that there are some Americans that don't, you know, get the same benefits as other Americans, it's me. And yet I'm able to see that America is still a great place that I'm proud to live in.

So with your generation having been raised by teachers and many parents about how oppressive a country this is to everybody but white males, white Christian males, white Christian straight males—

God forbid, the worst, the worst group, the worst.

I almost qualify except for the Christian part.

That's right.

So the, the, I guess the answer, I, I guess I know the answer. I was going to ask you, do most of them buy it?

Buy, buy this?

Buy— have most of your generation bought this presentation of America?

Oh, absolutely. Oh yes. And it's because they are so privileged. I told you on the phone the other day The biggest problem America has is that it was so great.

That's a great line.

Wokeism is— I like to say that wokeism is synonymous with spoiled brat syndrome. Only in a country that is so good can we debate all day about pronouns and, you know, if the white man against the black background on the crosswalk sign is a microaggression. Do you know how prosperous our country has to be for us to debate about these things?

Not just prosperous, problem-free.

Right.

When you invent problems, it means you don't have problems.

Absolutely.

It's like the hypochondriac.

Or that— gosh, this is one of my favorite ones— there was that woman at Wellesley College back in the '60s who published a list of all of the racist things in society, and she said that one of them is the color of Band-Aids. That Band-Aids are made for white skin to blend in with white skin tones as opposed to dark skin tones.

When I was a kid, you know what the color of those Band-Aids was called?

What?

Flesh.

Oh, oh no.

And that went out, boy, the, the battle against the racism.

Right.

Now, if I lived in Kenya and Band-Aids were black or brown and they were called flesh, would I feel that I was somehow ostracized?

Because it's a majority black country and this is a majority white country.

Exactly right. Well, why But that's it. That's your point.

Yes, you—

that's my point on racism. Why are there so many race hoaxes? The left went gaga crazy over my article and my statement on the radio. I remember that if I see the N-word on a college dorm of a Black kid's room I assume that a Black wrote it.

Oh, that's— I didn't hear that. I remember when you talked about the amount of race hoaxes.

Well, that's it. That's a race hoax. That's an example of a race hoax. Oh, yes. Yes. That's— I'm very— I was very specific and I wrote it as well.

Right.

And then they fact-checked me at The Washington Post, I think Politichek or whatever it's called. And they— PolitiFact. Thank you. Thank you. I do that to make sure Sean is listening. Periodically I throw out a slightly incorrect thing, and he was listening. And I wrote a column. You should— you would love it. I wrote a column on Politifact. They didn't say I got— they didn't say— what is it? Is it Pinocchios that they offer? Or, or, oh, pants on fire. That's it. If you really like some pants on fire. I didn't get pants on fire. I got mostly false, but they didn't offer any counter-evidence. I gave all these examples in my column of race hoaxes on campuses. They didn't give one of a genuine white racist doing those things.

Today. Today.

Oh, of course, obviously, in the time we live. So as I have said, I don't know if I said it in my article, but I've said it on the radio, Did any Jew make up an antisemitic hoax in 1930s Germany? Of course not, 'cause there was no need to.

And Blacks didn't make up, you know, hoaxes during Jim Crow.

That's right, exactly right.

Right, but to answer your question, it saddens me beyond belief, but yes, people really do believe that America is such an oppressive place because of the indoctrination and also because they just, They're unable to think about the way that other people live. Sometimes when I tell people, you know, that there's still slavery in parts of the world. Ghana, for example, still has slaves. You know, look at China and the concentration camps that the Uyghurs are in. You know, I list examples and you can see that people just don't— they don't know what I'm talking about. They've never heard it. As you know, I recently graduated from college and I'm very proud of that accomplishment. And I want to tell you about a great college in New York City. The King's College is a Christian liberal arts college in New York City's Financial District, providing a disciplined curriculum with a Christian worldview, both in person and online. The King's College has majors in business, finance, journalism, media, religion, and more. Every program is rooted in a politics, philosophy, and economics core curriculum. Which provides students with a framework for understanding the way the world works and how it is influenced. Because of this, King's graduates are well-rounded critical thinkers. King's faculty pride themselves on not sharing their opinions on topics, but instead teaching the historical context that roots the issues of the day. They like to say that students come to King's to earn their opinion. Faculty don't teach students what to think, but how to think. Both the online and in-person education from King's will prepare you to interact in any industry. King's alumni thrive after graduation. Students go on to top graduate schools at places like Harvard, Columbia, and Yale and begin careers at reputable and impressive organizations such as the Department of Justice, the Wall Street Journal, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Charity Water, Marc Jacobs, and more. Find out how you can attend the King's College in person or online by visiting tkc.edu today. Apply to the King's College for free at tkc.edu. Don't just go to college, go to King's. Start your journey today at tkc.edu.

This is dramatic then. So there's a video up at PragerU that, uh, that was just made by, what's my, my God, by Ami Horowitz, my actually close friend.

This is one thing, Dennis is a bit cursed with names. You're not good about remembering names.

And it was true at your age. It has nothing, thank God, it has nothing to do with age. It's just a crappy, my brother has the same thing, it's genetic.

And thank God it's the only thing really that you're cursed with.

Yeah, I could, thank you, that's very sweet. I could live with it. But any, it's a nuisance, right? It is, right? But it is what it is. So, uh, he made a video which is up at the PragerU. This is— it's a very smart thing he did. He went to the Castro District of San Francisco, which is very heavily gay, and he asked people if they're gay, and if they were, he asked them, do you support the Israelis or the Palestinians? Every single one said the Palestinians. He then went to the Palestinian Authority and he interviewed Palestinians, and he interviewed a prominent imam, Muslim religious leader, what should be done with gays. And of course it was to persecute them, to prosecute them. He asked the imam, would you prefer if your child were gay or a murderer? And said, a murderer. So they should be killed. They should be executed. This was the common response. Meanwhile, Israel has all these gay pride days. It's— if you're gay in Israel, you have a good life, right? You have— if you're gay in the Palestinian areas, you don't have a good life. You're totally in the closet. So he went back and showed the video.

Oh, What were their reactions?

Every single one changed their mind.

Wow.

That's— it's one of the most dramatic 13 minutes you can watch. Again, it's, it's up, uh, it's up at, uh, PragerU. Sean, what is the name of the video that Ami made? I, I'll get it for people because I really want people to watch this. About the Israelis, Palestinians, and the issue of the gays. So who's more tolerant? Yeah, that's the title of it. So I made the point to Ami when I had him on my show to promote the video and to discuss it and promote it, that that is why the left fears a 5-minute Prager video.

Oh, totally.

Or a speech by Ben Shapiro or me or Jordan Peterson Dennis Prager or Dave Rubin at a college campus. We can undo in an hour 4 years.

5 minutes.

In 5 minutes with the videos, yes.

They want the people on the left to stay in their echo chamber because they know if they go outside of that echo chamber it becomes very clear that the leftist credos are largely false. I mean, it's so stunning to me, Dennis, the amount that they talk about privilege. You would not believe— if I had a cent for every time, half a cent, a tenth of a cent for every time I heard the word check your privilege, own your privilege, know your privilege, et cetera, et cetera, privilege, privilege, privilege in high school and college, I would be a trillionaire, seriously. It is endlessly ironic to me, given the amount they talk about privilege, they have no idea that they are the most privileged. And their wokeism is living embodiment of privilege. It's just, oh God, I can't.

Well, that's my equation. Leftism equals secularism plus affluence.

That's right.

Secularism plus affluence equals boredom leads to leftism. Right. That's my equation on life.

I think also, you know, What is stunning to me is when I point out to people on the left, I just rattled off some examples of things that go on in, you know, other parts of the world that stand in stark contrast to how well we live in America. When I present those facts to them, they still stay on the left. And that makes me believe that they are more concerned with the benefits of being a part of that cohort than they are with the truth. And I think really for many of them, it's— I think we mentioned this last week on our podcast— it gives them a cudgel to assert their moral superiority. I think also one of the things that we've discussed, I believe off air, is that in the secular world, people don't have purpose beyond themselves. And every human being needs that. We need to feel like we are contributing to something greater than ourselves. And that's social justice movements for many people. And the interesting effect of that, Dennis, is that people don't know how to talk about anything but politics. That's what I appreciate about our podcast. Yes, certainly we talk about politics, but we talk about life. Look at how we started this conversation. We were talking about my sister. Last week we were talking about my fear of, you know, not marrying, in your dating life. We talk about other things because we are textured people. People nowadays, they cannot talk about anything but politics because that's their religion.

But even religious people talk about other things. They're worse. I know it is a unidimensional life.

Yes, it is.

Well, it started again in my generation when they said the, uh, Was it the political is the personal? Did you ever hear that phrase?

Yes, I did.

That, that was a '60s phrase. And so everything— or the personal is political, I think. That's right. The personal is political, right? Everything, male-female relations, is not about love, is not about companionship, it's not even about sex. It's about power. That's why talking about sex, there was a woman, I don't remember her name needless to say, but she was a big feminist philosopher.

Betty Friedan?

No, no, that I, by the way, I have to tell you about Betty Friedan and me.

Oh, did you meet her?

Yes.

Oh, we've got to hear this.

It's actually somewhere on video. Oh gosh. Yes, I was a little older than you. Anyway, This woman wrote, "All intercourse is rape." And— What? Yes, and she was not dismissed. She was a feminist thinker, and it got a lot of attention.

How? What?

Because everything is power.

Oh, God.

Catharine MacKinnon. What did you do, look up the phrase?

God, Sean, you are quick.

He's not quick. The computer is quick. It took him as long as it did to type in intercourse. He typed in intercourse Prager and got Catherine McKinnon.

Sean, you don't get any credit for anything.

That's correct. That's my view. You got to keep them in their place. You never know what will happen. He'll take over the show. So any— that was fast. All right. It was. I'm looking over, folks, because I see him on the big screen.

Gosh, I wish the viewers could see Sean because we can see his reactions and his faces I wish— Sean, would you ever want to come on? So if we interviewed Sean during a podcast— well, I guess there'd be no one to hear his reaction. No, I didn't.

The world is not ready for this.

Oh my gosh, the world is ready for it. I promise you, it would be riveting. He's, he's a joy. Okay, go on. So this woman—

no, it is attributed to her. Oh, oh, right. You know what? Catherine McKinnon did not say it. Oh, it might be a true— no, I would have known the name. I heard of Catherine McKinnon. The, the woman who doesn't matter, but since, since we got onto it, it is another. But I use that point to prove nothing exists outside of the political discourse, right? So intercourse is a power is about power, not sex, certainly not love. And by the way, there, of course, there is a power element in it. By the way, that's a part of its eroticism, to be perfectly blunt. But that's not what it's primarily about.

Right. Well, you know, I noticed this in college and I feel a little bit like the pot calling the kettle black because of this job that I'm doing, which is in the realm of politics. But one of the things that I did notice is that when you ask people just in regular conversation, what are your interests? Every single person will answer politics. It didn't used to be that way.

No, of course not.

My mother, for instance, God bless her, she's a wonderful person, a wonderful mother. She could give a damn about politics. She does not care at all. I mean, of course, you know, she cares to a certain extent. She votes and, you know.

No, I understand that.

She cares to the extent that it's her civic duty. Right. But she doesn't care, and I love that about her. You know how refreshing that is?

Yes, well, that— so now you will know why conservatives and liberals, especially leftists, have a different view on people who don't vote.

Oh yes, that's the whole one.

Yes, we don't care.

I don't care.

You don't want to vote, don't vote. It means that it could mean a whole host of things. It means you're not that dissatisfied, you don't think it's that important, you're much more preoccupied with building model cars or God knows what. And that's— I think that's great. All the— all these socialist governments that pass laws, you must vote. Who the hell are you to tell me I must vote?

I would so much rather have someone not vote if they don't know the candidate.

That's right.

Yes, they go and they go, I don't know, I like that guy's name, Chuck.

Or worse, I mean, I just know, oh, I vote. They gave me money, so of course I'll vote for them.

Right.

That is a perfect example. It annoys the left if you don't have politics at the center of your life. You don't vote, you, you, you are contemptible.

Yes.

And we can force you to do so. You're not thinking about politics enough.

That is why it is such a priority of mine in my life. I know that you know this, Dennis, to have a rich life outside of the political realm. And you are a fabulous example to me. Sorry, Juliette from Virginia. Every time I compliment you, I'm going to say that. You really are, though, a fabulous example of how to have that. You love photography, you love cigars, you love your pens, classical music, classical music.

It's endless. You, you just—

you have texture to you. And I'm telling you, if you went up to the average Harvard student— and again, I'm sorry, I really don't mean to pick on Harvard, but it's just the environment that I know— any university and you said to— got a random group of 100 people and you said, what are your hobbies? I'm telling you, or your interest, 98 out of 100 would say politics. And if you said what else, yes, many would not have an answer, right?

That would be a great question. What are you passionate about outside of the political? That, that would be a terrific thing to ask them.

And you know what, Dennis? I will be completely vulnerable right now. I have a lot of interests outside of the realm of the political, but I don't have hobbies. And that's something that I'm working on. I mentioned a few episodes ago that I ordered a chess book. By the way, I returned it. Not because you— I think you mentioned, I can't remember the specifics, but you mentioned in that episode that you don't like chess. It was not for that reason.

No, well, I didn't fall in love with it.

I just knew, given what I have to do in my life right now, I don't have time to learn it.

That's right. But it was a great idea. It speaks well for you.

I'm trying things. I'm trying things. And you know, I read so— a huge priority of mine in my life, in addition to cultivating interests outside of the political realm, is obviously preparing for my job, my full-time job that starts in September with Salem, where I'm going to be on air, I think, an average of 9 to 10 hours a week. So of course I am reading a lot of political books. But I have a rule with myself that for every political book I read, I read a nonpolitical book.

That is so— that is very admirable. Wow.

Thank you. Well, it just—

no, it is.

I'll tell you, life is so much more interesting.

You see, you— and I'm not even sure that you get credit for it because I'm more and more— and this is very recent in my life to come to these observations— I don't know how much credit I get for, for a lot of the good that's in me. I don't know. I'm saying I'm not sure. I'm not saying I don't, and— but I don't know that I do, right? See, so it's— you hear a good idea and you immediately embrace it. And but most people hear a good idea and don't change anything, or they resent the good idea. Well, yes, that's right, or they resent the good—

you have a great essay in your Torah commentary. I believe it's actually in the Cain and Abel section, which I referenced last week, where you talk about do you envy or emulate the people who do better than you, right? And you're saying when you see someone who's doing, you know, a better job—

American way has always been totally, oh, that guy's richer than me, how do I get rich?

Absolutely.

The world's reaction and the left's reaction is that guy's richer than me, That's wrong. I resent that.

It is so important that you just said that that is an American characteristic. I love to point people to President Eisenhower's project to build the interstate highway system in the 1950s. We got that from Germany. He looked at the Germany interstate highway system and said, they do that well, we're bringing that here. That's right. That is, that is why a large reason why America has been so great is because we We have embraced the idea that you emulate people's good decisions instead of resent them for it.

People watching or listening to us should read The Israel Test by the great, great thinker George Gilder.

Yes, yes. People who resent Israel don't do well. People who—

Right. That basically is his— he's not Jewish, and it is his criterion for how you think.

So you explain it.

Well, basically, yes. By the way, it's cheating, but it's worth it. People could watch him for 5 minutes on a PragerU video, The Israel Test. So while you should read the book—

That's not cheating, that's great.

I know, but the—

You feel like you're always plugging—

No, no, no, no, no, no, I don't know, not that. You're cheating in that you didn't read the book. You got the Cliff's Notes, as it were, but it's worth it. He summarizes his thesis beautifully. Beautifully. Basically, the world is divided between the people who resent those who have been more successful, right, and those who want to emulate them.

We all know that MyPillow sells fabulous pillows, but now they've created another great product: MySlippers. Mike Lindell has taken over 2 years to develop these slippers, which are designed to be worn indoors and outdoors all day long. They're made with MyPillow foam and Impact Gel, which help prevent fatigue and with quality leather suede. For a limited time, you will save $90 on a pair of these slippers. Call 1-800-566-6745 and use the promo code Hartman, my last name spelled H-A-R-T-M-A-N, or go to mypillow.com and click on the radio listener square and use the promo code Hartman. This offer will not last long, so order now with the promo code Hartman at mypillow.com. So I have a question for you just because I brought up that I have this rule: I read one political book, I read one non-political book. What are your favorite non-political books or fiction books?

Oh, that's easy. The problem with me, I find it very hard to read political books. I don't have to push myself to be passionate about the non-political. I have had to push myself. If I didn't have the work that I have I would know much less about politics. Do you know I lived through the, for example, the Watergate scandal? I mean, it was huge. It brought down a president, Richard Nixon. He resigned. I— let's see, what year would that have been? So that would have been '72, '74. When was he— what? Oh, he's elected in '72, I think.

'74, '75.

You, you would be shocked. I know Sue is shocked. My wife is shocked. Because she is very politically aware. Oh boy, to say the least. Yeah, I mean, she dwarfs me in that arena.

But she's also a textured person.

No, totally. Yes, just— yes, correct. But I, I knew nothing. Do you know when, when the guys got on to— when they, they went to the moon? Again, we're very open with each other and obviously with those listening and watching, so The, the day the guys landed on the moon, I was with my German girlfriend on a boat, uh, uh, sailing up the North Sea.

And you were—

I, I, I'm not proud of it. I'm just telling you.

I think it's endearing.

Oh, okay. I'm, I, I'm, I'm delighted that you do. I— but I had to I have to force myself to stay up with the current events. My passion is ultimate issues, not today's issues.

You know, so I'm bringing Sean into this conversation any chance I get. I obviously benefit so much from your wisdom, but I also benefit hugely from Sean's, and Sean knows that I sit in his office many times after work and just pick his brain on things. And I said to him about a month ago, I start this full-time job on air, give me a list of books, what should I be reading? I'll do any homework, et cetera. And Sean said something to me and it has changed the way that I prepare, it's changed the way I think. He said, write down 3 truths that you know are unchanging and flesh those out and get rock solid with those and that's your paradigm, Dennis. I'm like you. I don't really care about the day-to-day news. When I guest host for you, sometimes, you know, I have to force myself to read the news, because I know, obviously, people want to hear it. I would so much rather talk about big themes. But what makes— I think the reason why you have lasted so long as a talk show host is because you have become rock solid in those enduring truths. And then, this is what Sean has pointed out to me, whenever, you know, something crazy happens in the news, you plug that story into your paradigm.

That's right. He told you that?

He did tell me that.

He's smarter than I thought.

Sean's remarkable. Sean, thank you. Seriously.

Sean, you figured that out? That's not fully true, but that's a separate issue. Yeah.

But it's— look, obviously that's a great way to be a lasting talk show host, but I just think that just enriches you more as a person.

That's the way you should live life.

I was reading these books, and I always— I need to give myself credit, you know. Sean's advice was very helpful, but it wasn't exactly a revelation. I have always had an eye towards the greater truths, but he pushed me to have both of my eyes towards those truths. I used to read these books and I would take, I'm not even kidding, 20 to 30 pages of notes of the specifics, like this percent of people were shot by police this year, or in 2019 this specific law was passed. You don't remember any of that, really.

Even you?

I know, even me. Well, I can remember— that was a bad example.

I can remember, you know, well, that, by the way, the truth is I wish I could remember that stuff, right? Because giving examples makes your point.

No, it does. But I, I'm just so glad, and it is thanks to Sean, that I have really prioritized the, the truth.

Well, that's right.

And then putting the examples—

people should ask in light of this, I never, never thought about this fully. If you like a talk show host or you like a thinker, can you summarize what they most stand for? That would be a very interesting question to ask people about their favorite writers or favorite talk show hosts or thinkers or whatever, or podcasters and people in their lives.

Too. You know, some of the— I have come around to asking many of my friends recently, what do you stand for? What do you believe in? People don't know. People aren't concerned with our exercise of defining their values and seeking truth.

And they're filling the vacuum with anti-racism, right? And, and, uh, non-binary gender identity. It's a vacuum that's being filled. It's a very scary thing, actually, what's happening, as you know. Did you have a question on— I love the fact that you're reading my Bible commentary.

Boy, I have many questions for you. The first one, well, I want to ask you about specific things in the text.

Okay.

But first I have to ask you about something that you mentioned in the preface, that you met with Elie Wiesel.

Oh, I also mentioned Betty Friedan.

Oh yes, okay, okay. Before, before we go Betty Friedan and Ellie Wiesel. I'd like to hear those stories.

Okay, so we may not get a chance even for the Bible question, but anyway, uh, boy, so we're already that far into the podcast. Yes, yes, we are.

Are you kidding?

No, I'm not kidding.

If you, if you paused and you said to me, how far in are we? I would say that we're 10 minutes. Yes, not that we have 10 minutes to go. Okay, sorry.

I often say to Alan, uh, after the show. God, that went fast. And I'm very happy that that happened. Obviously the worst thing you could think of— this thing dragged on. So Betty, so I, in my 20s and early 30s, I had a what I called a forum on contemporary values, uh, and I would invite the leading thinkers in America when they— in those days they were available. They became much too expensive afterwards. Then they were affordable. So they would come to LA, and I had a full, full house, obviously, because the big deal. So I had— I love having people I don't agree with. So I had Betty Friedan one night, and I, I was probably 30 years old, maybe 29, maybe 31. But it was that age. And I was very polite, as I always am, even to people I don't agree with. But I differed with her. And it— this will crack you up, and it's on video. And I, I didn't video it, but the institution that I directed did video it, and I have to somehow get a copy of it. It would be black and white, but who cares? And she got— she literally got up and walked off the stage.

Betty Friedan?

Yes.

Away from you?

Away from me.

Why?

Because she was annoyed. She said, you are a male chauvinist piglet. Not pig, piglet. I didn't know. Never to this day, I don't know why it was only a piglet. But she called me that and walked off. Now I am proud to say that I did nothing. I just continued to talk to the audience. If she wanted to return, she would return.

Did she?

Yes.

Oh, see, that's what's funny. I often notice whether, you know, I used to watch The Bachelor. I since have realized that it makes me lose brain cells. But I, you know, when I notice in TV shows When people walk off, they always come back on.

Oh, that is interesting.

Or in political talks, oftentimes they always come back on. They want to make a scene.

That's right. But it was so childish. I mean, I can't imagine doing that. So anyway, it was what it was. And I am aching to see the video of that. The—

me too.

The other— you asked me about Elie Wiesel. So I met him. I had an evening with him in that regard, and I'll never forget, he was a truly admirable man, no question about it. And he truly alerted the world to the Holocaust almost single-handedly. Simon Wiesenthal as well, I would say, in different ways, they both did that. I also met Simon Wiesenthal. The Nazi hunter, the great Nazi hunter.

No way.

In Vienna. And all I could say is one of the few regrets in my life is I have no photo of it. Oh, wow. I would truly treasure that.

So what did you say to him?

Wiesenthal or Oiza?

Well, let's start with— I meant Wiesenthal.

So, all right. So this is what I— one of the things I remember from the evening. So I looked at him and I go, so I said, so I don't know if I called him Eli or Mr. Wiesel, I think Eli. And I said, Eli, I'm just curious, do you pray? And in a classical Eli Wiesel fashion, he goes, well, Dennis, if I say I do, I'd say I pray, I wouldn't be telling the truth, and if I'd say I don't pray, I wouldn't be telling the truth. And I looked at the audience and I said, you all know how much I revere Mr. Wiesel, but I have to say, only Wiesel could get away with that answer.

He's so precise.

Well, it doesn't really help you. I mean, I actually, in retrospect, think the answer was better than I thought at the time.

So why do you say only he could get away with it?

Oh, because anything he would say, people regarded as profound. And by the way, I say that with respect.

Oh, okay, I see what you're saying. No, no, I get it.

I see what you're saying. And it was clear how much I respected him.

Oh, of course.

But I thought I could rib him. Not many people can say they ribbed Elie Wiesel.

See, what I hear in that answer— Wow, you're right. What I hear in that answer is a remarkable allegiance to the truth, even though it is sort of a dull, nothing answer. I appreciate his precision.

I appreciate your appreciation of it. As I said, over years I've reviewed that in my mind. Over the years I thought, you know, it wasn't as evasive and noncommittal as I thought at the time. That I better understand now what he means, and yes, you're right, I guess he was telling the truth. Wiesenthal was a— I remember the meeting pretty well. The reason I— I don't know the reason he saw me, now that I think of it, but I called up and he said fine. It's amazing. When I was a kid, by that meaning about your age, in my 20s, the access you had to people was so beyond later. Do you know that in— I used to go to Carnegie Hall every week when I lived in New York till I was 25, 26, and, and same with the, the the New York Philharmonic place, Avery Fisher Hall. And I would go backstage and meet the conductor or meet the pianist or meet the cellist just by going backstage. They didn't even—

You could just walk.

Just that's it. Just walk. Oh, I met— I met them all.

Boy, I'm sorry to turn this conversation into a negative point, but—

So I call up— I call up Simon Wiesenthal. I say, hi, I'm a kid from America. I love your work. I'm coming in from Hungary because I go through East Europe each year because I study communism. Is it okay if I meet you? Of course. Here's the address.

Oh my gosh. I was going to say my generation has lost a lot. We couldn't do that.

No, you couldn't. He wants to know what I said to him. I basically— I'm sure— I'm not sure. I remember I just asked him questions. I didn't say anything. When I'm with people that I can learn from, I don't have any interest in talking. I have only an interest in listening. I wanted to learn from the greatest minds I could meet. I didn't have a desire to tell Simon Wiesenthal what I thought about life. The guy's what, 30 years older than me? He's a legend.

Oh, what I learned was first, by the way, for our listeners, Sean is speaking to Dennis.

And so he's asking, what did I learn? I'll tell you one of the things that stayed with me. The guy, he spent his life. He was called the Nazi hunter. He spent his life finding Nazis who had paid no price for their atrocities.

There were many.

Yes. And he was the best known in the world for doing this. The man was happy. The man was not bitter.

Like Elie Wiesel.

Well, Wiesel didn't radiate happiness.

That's, that's—

yeah, Wiesel was—

but he wasn't better.

No, no, I— that's exactly right. So here's a guy who, Wiesenthal, went through the Holocaust chasing Nazis and is— and, and was not even bitter against Germans. It It was truly inspiring to be in his midst. I met every— because I was involved in Jewish life through, through the age of 30, overwhelmingly, and I met every great Jew of the generation before me. I think I'm the only one who could say that. I— it was such a rich part because these, these I mean, Wiesel, Wiesenthal, and others, Norman Podhoretz, the guy who founded Commentary, or at least the great editor. And I loved it. I was very lucky too. And I knew how lucky I was. But by the way, just want to tell you one great anecdote.

Please do.

Okay. So this is— so I told you I call up Wiesenthal. I go, I'm a Jew from America, young Jew.

You mean in person?

When I called him up in order to meet with him.

Oh, that's right.

Right. So, but it wasn't only Jews. I was always interested in the whole world.

Of course.

So at the age of 26, I was in Egypt, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan. I wanted to— I studied Arabic. I wanted to go to the Arab world. I wanted to, you know, learn. I somehow— and it's, it's truly a riot to me. I finagled a meeting with one of the highest-ranking guys in Egypt. I don't know how I did it. And the same thing in Romania. I got a meeting with the head of their— their— the communist newspaper.

Oh wow, God bless you. Yes, God, you did bless me in life.

God did bless me.

Yep, he did.

I learned a lot because I cared about the big issues so early. I had a head start.

You know, as you were saying that, I was thinking to myself— by the way, sorry, I have to interrupt myself here. I had a listener write in and say, you need to stop saying that you were thinking to yourself. There's no other way to think. So I'm sorry to that listener.

Poor Julie.

No, it's— well, I know why you're saying poor Julie, because I'm very hard on myself, but I Like you, I appreciate when people correct me, so I'm going to eliminate that from my way of speaking.

Along with regards.

Well, I think I've successfully eliminated that. Okay, so I was thinking, I'm leaving it at that, that people my age, they value celebrities over great thinkers. You started off this story by saying, I wanted to meet the greatest minds. I am that same way. I want to meet the greatest minds. And of course, I'm not trying to just excoriate my generation any chance I get. Of course there are people who would want to.

But it was true in any generation. People want celebrities but not great minds. That is, you hit it on the nose. And I tell you, part of my own nature, whatever reason, I was never drawn to celebrities. It meant nothing. Same with politicians. I mean, if it's a great politician, fine, but otherwise I have no interest. To this day.

It's healthy.

It, it is. Goes fast.

I know I, I have other questions I want to ask you, but I guess it's a good foreshadowing of the next show.

How do people reach you?

Yes, I knew that was what Sean was saying to you. And you're— you can reach me at julie-hartman.com, my website, and you'll see an email there which is julie@julie-hartman.com. As I said last week, I cannot promise that I will respond to every piece of mail, but I certainly can tell you that I read each one, and I really appreciate when people write to me with corrections, words of encouragement, anything. I'm very grateful.

Even criticism.

Totally. Even criticism.

And everybody wants the same. Everybody wants the same thing.