Ideological Subversion

Hi everybody, welcome to Dennis and Julie, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman, and this is a precedent-breaking moment. It's never been Dennis and Julie and—

there's one person to do an and with. That is the girl right here.

That is very fair to say. Amala Epunobi, who is one of the most successful podcasters in America. She has a phenomenal podcast at PragerU and periodically sits in for me on my national radio show. And when the issue arose that Amala was already in my regular radio studio, would we have her on? My instinct, I'll be very honest, is, well, it's Dennis and Julie. Sure. And that's what people know. On the other hand, it is Amala. I know, you're right. You do. Exactly. I mean, if we're going to break precedent, this is the person to do it with. I am with Two of the most remarkable women in the country, young or old. And so it leads me to a very interesting question, because this is not politically driven, Amal, as you know. It's, it's very human, the show. So you're both immensely successful, inordinately successful at a very young age. If I have watched people ruined by fame and success at an early age. I don't think this will happen to either of you, so the question is, why not?

That's a big question.

I know, it is. This is the big question show.

Wow. I guess I'll start. I, I think I have always approached the subject matter of, of being famous with the attitude that I would never want to be famous, because I think it comes with a lot of different issues that people don't necessarily think about. They always think about the perks. But outside of that, I think I view fame different to most people in that all it means is that people know your name and they know your likeness and they can recognize you on the street. It doesn't really mean that they know you as a person or you know them. So when people approach me or they talk to me, to me it's just, oh, here's another person who happens to know my name. How can I get to know them? And take in what they say with really a grain of salt. It's people that you don't know. But when I first started working here, you told me, you know, don't let the hate go to your heart and don't let the love go to your head. And that is something that I've carried with me throughout this whole process.

I'm very touched because it is powerful.

Yep.

That's a great Dennis Pragerism. Sean calls them truth bombs.

I have a new name for it. A guy gave me, a liberal that I had dinner with in Washington, Yes. And he said, you should call them Prager's Proverbs.

I love that.

That is good.

Extra points for alliteration.

You could put that in a book.

You know, I have to—

Exactly right, actually.

I have to say, so as you may know, Amala, I know that the viewers know, last summer I worked for Dennis and I was a guest once a week on his radio show. And part of my job was that after the radio show, we'd go back to your house and I would read his email and respond to listeners and just try to organize things for you. And one of your listeners, I can't remember his name, but you should try to dig it up in your email, sent a list of about 50 Pragerisms. You know, everything the left touches it ruins. Even stuff like, you know, you refer to Alan as the living martyr and Sean as Triple G. You have gotta pull that up and we should read it aloud. There are easily 50 of them. I printed it out, I think I gave it to Sue, but we've gotta dig it up. We will dig it up and read it on the next show. My answer to your question is two things. Number one, I hate arrogant people. That is the quality that I despise most in others. I've always, since I was little, if I sense a hint of arrogance in someone, I automatically don't like them. I think also though, and this substantiates a point that you make a lot, Dennis, I think that people have natures. When I first met Amala, I immediately sensed that you were a humble, person. When I first met you, I could immediately sense that you were a humble person. So yes, both of us, you know, are somewhat in the public eye and we have the privilege of being able to do things that a lot of people our age, you know, don't have the opportunity to do. But I think, you know, not to comp— I feel like I'm kind of breaking my rule here because I'm complimenting myself and complimenting—

but we both have these natures.

Right, right, right. I think, you know, there's the phrase that fame and money make you a horrible greedy person, but I think it's really not that at all. I think that fame and money exacerbate what you already are, and that's what happens.

That's exactly, really well said.

Also, I'm not famous. I just get cursed out in restaurants when someone overhears me.

That's a certain type of fame.

Talking about— yeah, that's a certain sort of fame. We're gonna go with that.

Well, let's be honest, I learned right before we went on now that you're very seriously involved with a man.

Yes.

And indeed it was your fame that brought you together.

It's interesting because, yes, I'll tell the story really quickly. I was at a bar in LA with my roommate and this gorgeous man sat next to me and we sparked up a conversation.

Gorgeous man, I love that.

Gorgeous man.

What happened to handsome? No, no, I'm just curious. Is that the way girls your age would say it? A gorgeous guy?

I think— I don't know.

I'm just— I don't have a position on it. I'm just curious.

I've heard so many different acronyms.

Is handsome still used?

Seldom, I would say, but yes.

It's sort of an antiquated— it seems— do you feel this too, that it sort of sounds like an antiquated term?

I think it does. Yeah, that's why I raised the issue. Okay, go ahead. You saw a gorgeous guy.

Gorgeous guy. I sort of looked over and just caught the glimpse and went, "Ooh, I'm not going to do anything there. I'm not going to start anything," because I'm not an extremely extroverted person, even though I might come off as being that on my podcast. But I just turned around, kept talking to my roommate, and all of a sudden he sparked up a conversation with us. It wasn't until about 10 or 15 minutes into the conversation that he realized I looked familiar. He said, "You look super familiar." I told him, "Trust me, I would know if I met you, and you do not know me." he pulled out his phone and started scrolling through messages he had with his best friend.

Your immediate reaction was not he knew you from your public persona?

It was not, because—

oh, is that fascinating.

It's weird, I, I wasn't really getting recognized all that often, and, and even when I do, I don't sort of lead with, oh, well, I do a podcast, that's what you must know me from.

I just sort of go, she's humble.

I guess I admit I do lead with that. It's easier for you to do it, I have to say. They go, "Are you?" And I go, "Yes." Yep. Okay, go ahead.

It might be just easier that way at some point. But he pulls out his phone and starts scrolling through messages with his best friend, and 2 days prior to us meeting in this little bar in LA, he had sent one of my videos to his best friend talking about how the points that I was making were very on point and that it was stuff that he wasn't comfortable expressing. So what are the odds?

So gorgeous and in sync philosophically.

Yes, absolutely.

Holy crow.

Yes, it's amazing.

That's my wish for you.

And extremely humble. So when I met him, I obviously thought, oh, this is a beautiful, handsome man. He doesn't like to admit it, but in the past he was a model and he doesn't talk about it really ever because he's humble and he has that nature to him. And we started talking in that bar and we got into feminism and voting and all these different political issues. And I think we talked for 4 hours and just kudos to my—

so wait, kudos to my roommate. Oh, that was my question. How does a guy— I never ever figured this out— a guy sees two women together, which is very common, right?

Sure.

Most women go to a bar, let's say, or with somebody. So how does he zero in on the one he's interested in?

I think he sort of looked into who was giving him the most interest and who sort of came and, and who he, uh, vibed with the most, as we young people say. But we were sitting, and my roommate, I will say, is gorgeous. Julia's met her as well. She is stunning. So he's talking to these two girls, and we start getting into politics, and that's really where the rift starts, because we start talking about feminism. My roommate is right-leaning, free-thinking, but is feminist and self-identifies as a feminist. So we started talking about that, and our chemistry, me and John, that's his name, just went through the roof and we were going off on this and then she started to disagree a little bit and I think he realized, oh, okay, okay, that's so— this girl—

did this happen, Dennis? Correct me if I'm wrong, with you and Sue? The first time you met her, she was with a friend.

Oh, that's right.

Right.

So how did you decide? Single? Yeah. So how did you—

that's such an interesting question. I never thought of that.

It seems like the friend was Sue's cheerleader though.

That—

oh, big That's how you recount the story to me.

To her great credit, yes. Right. But it was, yeah, it was after a speech and it took me 2 minutes to figure out this was the woman that I should be with.

Yeah.

Anyway, well, that's not for the— I'm happy to talk about it, but I find the question I asked you is an important one because I look at— was it Britney Spears? Is it— have you— she's, she's not that famous? I mean, she's extremely famous.

I'm not saying extremely—

you know the name Britney Spears?

Oh, that's why you're shocked. I, I thought you looked like you never heard of her.

No, she's an A-lister.

She's an A-lister. So even I know— no, I actually, uh, do keep up on Daily Mail. There's a section on U.S. showbiz. I, I have to know something. And I, I just— even forgetting my radio show, I just feel like I have to be somewhat aware of this stuff. So I— it just seems to me that it has had a— it's a wrecking ball in her life. Uh, it's not a happy life.

I mean, I'm sorry, what is a wrecking ball?

Her fame and her fortune at an early age. I, I, I know. I wish— it's not, of course, it's not possible. I don't even think God could do it, but I wish that there were a way, maybe posthumously, that after you die you could have a video of, had I made this choice or had this happened, what would have happened?

Oh, that's a movie. There's a movie based on that subject. I believe it's called Sliding Doors.

Oh, with the subway train.

With Gwyneth Paltrow.

Yes.

I've never seen it.

Oh my gosh, it's a great movie.

Right.

And then, um, I think at the beginning of the movie In one scenario, she makes the subway. In another scenario, she misses it. And you see how her life pans out with those two scenarios.

Wow.

I don't want to give away the ending, but I actually think the ending has a very good message about it.

There would be a million ways to break that down. So many choices we make in any given day. Of course, right?

That's why Yogi Berra is famous. Either of you ever hear of Yogi Berra?

Yes. Yes.

Yeah, you gotta look. The guy naturally came out with hilarious lines. Naturally. He didn't even, I don't think, always think that they were funny. But he said, for example, you know, when you come to a fork in the road, take it. That's a perfect example of a Yogi Bear.

What a name, Yogi Bear.

Yeah, yeah, it's true. Yogi Bear, he was a great baseball player and manager. So Anyway, I could vouch for the fact that you guys are real, that this stuff— I wouldn't have asked it, obviously, otherwise. May I offer another thought? And you absolutely don't have to agree, needless to say. But I have a thought. When I thought about asking you two this question, and I don't want to put any words in your mouth or anything, but you're both women of very deep convictions. And I think the convictions are more important to you than the fame.

Oh yes, yep, definitely.

So I think that's a big factor when a— when an actress or actor becomes very famous and successful. It's— I'm not knocking acting profession, I think it's a wonderful profession, but they're not there because of their convictions.

That's an excellent point because most people are in the line of work that we're in to promote themselves. And every project they do is about elevating their stature or their fame. Certainly, maybe professionally we make the right choices to put ourselves in good positions professionally. But I know that when I'm sitting in front of a microphone, especially when I'm guest hosting for you, I feel a deep sense of responsibility to talk about these things in the right way. Because I know how important it is. I was telling you on the phone the other day, I really believe that right now in this country, I mean, things have been bad for, I would say, about 5, 10 years. I believe that today we are at a worse point than we have ever been in our history.

And so I believe that too.

I really do. And so again, when I'm speaking, it goes beyond me. I have to— I know that I have to be good, not just to elevate myself, but I have to be good to be effective and convince people that our values are worth following. And that, that's a great point. That's why you kind of take yourself out of it. Yeah.

And I guess it begs the question, what is left when the fame is over? Because it doesn't last your entire lifetime. So what do you have to lean back on when that's gone? And is it a reputation of just saying things in order to garner more fame and surrounding yourself with people who are willing to take advantage of you? In the name of getting more fame? Or is it you spent your whole life speaking about your values and encouraging people to not even be on your side of things, but just to question their own realities and their own worldviews? And when the fame is gone and nobody recognizes me anymore, I'll have that to lean back on.

But let me get to the point, Amala, that Julie raised. Do you feel that this is the darkest time since the Civil War? And you don't have to. I'm truly just curious. I'm not making any point.

You know, I think there's a lot of problems with the time that we're living in right now, but with how many people who I meet who are just as reasonable as we are and just as rational but choose to stay quiet, I like to think it's just a problem of apathy and that we're not necessarily in dark times. But I couldn't tell you really. I don't know. I like to remain on the optimistic side of things that we are just in what is the time for now, and it could be a dark one, but I don't know that it's the darkest time.

How do you explain the phenomenon of all these girls who say they're boys, as an example? This is clearly societally induced. It's inconceivable there's another explanation.

You're absolutely right. So, funny story, yesterday I filmed a video for a YouTube account called Jubilee, and they do this series called Middle Ground where they invite people for from two opposing sides to come together and debate. And my episode was conservative women versus trans women. So I was one of three conservative women who came and spoke to these trans women. And the question came up, are kids being indoctrinated with gender theory and made to be gender confused? And you know what? Only one of the trans women denied that it was happening. And the other two said, yes, we are teaching kids about this because we're trying to make a society that's more aware But it doesn't account for the rates of what I call social contagion gender dysphoria, where kids are exponentially identifying as gender confused and transgender and non-binary simply because of what they're exposed to. That is the— that is it. That is the core of the issue.

It's— it's unbelievable, actually.

It is.

I will. All right. So now Since the two of you are humble, I'll compensate for it with a non-humble statement. But I'm not saying it to brag. I'm saying it for— because I think it's important. I wrote about— I wrote in 1980-something, pre-internet, when I was sending out a newsletter. I wrote a big piece called The War on Differences— The War on Distinctions. And I said the male-female is one of the distinctions that's being made a war against, and this is going to lead to terrible things. And I, I ask myself, how did I know this? And the truth is, to me it was clear when I was your age at, at graduate school. I was taught there's no difference between men and women. Why wasn't that the beginning of this whole thing? If there's no— by the way, here, I just want to get both your answers to this because I can't figure this out. If the, if, if the left says there's no difference between men and women, what does being trans mean?

I completely agree. It's a great question.

Just becoming me.

And when I taught you, you were on The Young Turks recently, and, uh, why do I feel the urge to call her Anna Karenina?

What is that? Yeah, what's her host name?

She's not Anna Karenina. She played a Dennis and Julie clip where I was talking about at Harvard, all these— I would see all of my classmates, all of my female classmates, that's an important distinction, putting computer stickers on their laptops with I heart women, I'm a woman, hear me roar, you know, women run the world. Why would you even elevate women in that way if gender is just a construct and gender doesn't matter? Their whole way of thinking is so upside down. Before we move on from this I just want to give you quickly my theory on why I think this is the worst moment in our history since the Civil War. And I'm obviously, I want to hear your guys' responses. I really, the thing that concerns me now, you know, in the time of the Civil War, there was a very clear side that was totally morally wrong and evil. And there was a side that was totally morally right. And thank God the morally right side trumped over the morally wrong side. Now, the thing that concerns me is all the people in between. And I had such a window into this in college where, to Amala's point, I think there is sort of a silent majority. But with all due respect to that silent majority, and we talk about this a lot on this show, Dennis, we get paid to espouse our values. We are in a very privileged position. A lot of people don't have that privilege. They would lose their jobs if they spoke up about their values. I recognize that. But there are so many morally confused people who don't take a stand on anything nowadays. When I talk to my college peers and I say, do you think that this mutilation, genital mutilation of young children is wrong? They have this very lukewarm, well, you know, maybe it's not the best thing, but some people choose to identify in another way. Or when I talk to them about defunding the police and I say, do you think that's morally wrong? Well, again, maybe it's not the best thing, but you know, the police have been oppressive. That's what concerns me. The amount of people that won't take a stand on things that are truly evil. There is no moral clarity anymore. So yes, in the Civil War, there was evil as there is today, but unlike the Civil War, we have swaths of people who are essentially just in the middle. And I think those are the people that are going to tank us.

That's an argument.

What do you think?

A person that I found when I was going through this transition of becoming a free thinker and opening up my mind was Yuri Bezmenov, who was a KGB defector, and he made this video warning Americans about ideological subversion. And he said the real pitfall of this is that people aren't going to wake up from their apathy or their cowardice until the military boot kicks them in the butt. And I think that's the problem. We can talk to people about these issues as much as we possibly can until our faces turn blue. But until they feel it, they will do nothing. And they have to feel it directly in front of them. It has to be something that affects them, their family, their community. And that's what happened to me. I was a leftist until I completely surrounded myself with the ideology and felt it on a personal level through issues that I could not run away from because they were happening right in front of my face. Reading an article or listening to a podcast doesn't quite do that for people.

If I asked your mother— may I bring your mother into this? Sure. So for those who don't know, Amala's mom is an activist on the left. So if I were to ask her, or maybe, I don't know if you did, but if I, a stranger, she would know who I am presumably, but a stranger. So what do you think of girls having their breasts removed 'cause they say they're boys?

What would her response be to that?

That's a great question.

You know, I think she would be sympathetic to the blind affirmation medical care that's going on right now in this country. And she would make the statement that most progressives make and that it's that, you know, the reason we haven't seen rates of transgenderism like this is because we haven't been talking about it. We haven't been educating about it. And of course, children know their gender and to deny them of that affirmation would be harmful to them. I think that would be her answer, even though the research is completely antithetical to that.

Right. Of course, my follow-up question, and I'm not picking on your mother with anyone on the left, would be. But since you say men and women are not different, what does it mean to identify with the other sex since the other sex is the same as me?

You know, I don't think my mother would be on the side of saying that men and women are not different.

I see.

Because she subscribes herself to the idea of patriarchy, of male aggression, of male assertion of themselves.

Toxic masculinity.

Toxic masculinity. So yeah, I think you're gonna find two classes of people.

So, all right, let me ask one more here. This has been a joy, Amala, I gotta tell you.

Thank you, Dennis.

It's an Amala sandwich.

Yeah, it's very, very hearty. So you two, and I'm asking only because we really touch on the personal on the Dennis and Julie podcast, so Her mom is very proud of her. And your mom is ambivalent.

Recently becoming proud. I will actually tell you.

Oh, this is new. Let me hear about it.

Yeah. So she's sort of turned a corner. She called me the other day just for a little bit of background. My brother is a jazz musician and he just recently booked a very big festival. And I sent my mom to the festival to see him perform live because she's never really gotten that experience. And she called me from the festival and she was so emotional seeing her son up on a stage performing for all these people. And she said, you know what, Amalah, as much as, you know, we have our differences in politics, I want to express to you how proud I am of you for what you've done.

I could cry.

Yeah. And she said—

Did you cry?

I did not cry, luckily. But it was just a shocking experience.

So, all right, aside from shocking—

I'm so glad she said that.

Yeah. But I— of course we are.

I want to know how you react You know, I thought, I think this is a long time coming and I feel as though she's been maybe fighting the idea of it a little bit in her mind just because the ideologies are so polar to each other. But it was groundbreaking for me because I had grown up with a mom who had made it very clear. And I should add, my mother is fantastic. I never wanted for anything as a child and she made sure we were very happy outside of our political discussions. But she was constantly making it clear, I don't want to be friends with conservatives. My grandparents were conservatives and continue to be conservative. So there was lots of turmoil.

By the way, for the record, your mom's white.

Yes.

So people will know. Okay, go on.

Yeah. So she would get into arguments with other family members. They wouldn't talk for months. There was moments where she would tell me, I can't be friends with people who are Republican, conservative. They have no place in my life. They're toxic. And my grandmother called me the other day and she said, I think your mom has turned a new leaf. She just told me the other day that you have opened her up to being friends with people who disagree with her. And then I got the call of her telling me how proud she was of me. So I feel like we're really taking a turn on the story.

So how do you react emotionally to this?

You know—

I mean, let me explain why I'm asking. Sure. Because a young person could say, you know, 'Look, so much— there's so much water under the bridge that— look, I'm glad this is happening, but, but the— look, the damage is done, and, and I'm happy that it'll be more peaceful going forward.' That's, that's a possible reaction.

Yeah, you know, I don't— I, I don't think— I don't view my relationship with my mother as something that has instilled damage in me whatsoever, because I am who I am today, and that is very very much due to her. The reason I'm so strong-willed is because of her attitude growing up, even though it might have been for the wrong side. So she did so many great things for me. So as far as me— her being proud of me and getting that call, I was so happy, not even for myself but for her, because I won't get into this, but she's—

Oh, that's a very sweet— that's a very healthy reaction.

Yeah, yeah. She's struggled with—

So it's even better for her than for you.

Yeah. She's struggled with her mental health and things.

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My mom more so than my dad. My dad and I get into it sometimes.

Yeah, he doesn't like Trump.

He does not like Trump at all.

Right.

But you know what? It's great to have that in my home because he makes me better. He challenges me on everything. He agrees with me on most things, but he does challenge me on, on, on the Trump issue.

So here is one more thought from, uh, You're the Kids, I'm the Parent. So I tell parents they cannot allow their children to hold their happiness hostage. A lot of kids have turned out crappy, it's just a fact, and treat their parents despicably, which you don't, by the way. No, no, I know, not anymore at least.

Yeah, not what I said, not anymore at least. We've certainly gone through contentious periods.

Yeah, but that's, that's not the same as just treating Contentious is not the same as— well, I mean, my best example is kids who won't talk to a parent who voted for Trump. They won't let them see their grandchildren. This does not enter, I assume, your mind.

No.

And would not, no matter how much you differ with your mom. But I do tell parents, you cannot have all your joy from your children and you cannot have all your pain from your children.

Mm-hmm.

You have to live a life. Does that resonate with you at, at, from the children's standpoint?

Oh, hugely. I, I love to say the most powerful and lasting thing that you can give to a person, you know, people nowadays say it's money or it's opportunities. I think it's the power of your example. If you set a really good example, that will stick with people longer than any material thing that you give them.

Mm-hmm.

And Amala has set such a great example for her family of being brave and going out and espousing good values. And of course it leaves a good impression on your mom. And of course, you know, it's not surprising to me that she ultimately is expressing—

How do your siblings react to you?

Uh, you know, my siblings are sort of apathetic.

They're not political?

No, not really. They're left-leaning certainly, but not, not super engaged.

Well, that's the default position, right?

Yeah, right.

So he, when I think of you, Amala, the, uh, I I see you as an ode to— and this is not a political fact or not a political opinion, it's just the way life works. Your, your nature is— it's not unique, but it's rare. And it is a nature to inquire. If it doesn't— and by the way, I think the three of us have that from a very early age. My, my feeling was, if it doesn't make sense, I won't accept it.

Yeah.

And, and I think that's true for the three. By the way, I think that that is true for most people who are not on the left. They accept things that don't make sense. Wear masks when you're a 2-year-old makes no sense. Forget politics. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense that a biological man can compete in female sports. So I got a great story, and then react if you think I'm right, that it's essentially when all is said and done, a certain nature will respond to what we say and certain natures just won't. So I met a guy, and I've told the story on the air, and I may have said it on our show, that the Norwegian guy I met at Philadelphia Airport—

who was cute.

Yeah, so it's rare. I'm a guy, I'm a heterosexual guy, but I thought this guy was stunning looking. Just, I mean, masculine, gorgeous, as tall as me but considerably thinner, and about 35 years old. Comes over to me and he goes, oh, I love your work, it's a joy to meet you. Very kind and so on. And I detected a tiny, truly tiny accent And I said, may I ask, where are you from? He goes, Norway. And I said, wow, I didn't, I didn't think that there were many conservatives in Norway. He said, I don't know if I'm conservative, I just know what makes sense. And, and that opened my mind. I don't see any difference between conservatism, or at least non-leftism, and making sense.

Yep, I, I agree with you. This was something that I went through. So when when I left the left, as they say, I had this immediate instinct to go really far right and be like, well, if the left is wrong, the right must be right. And this is my new label. And here I am. And then through that, I decided, okay, I don't want to be somebody who follows in blind faith. I don't want to be somebody who's wholly cynical. I want to sit in the middle and be a skeptic. So what does that mean to people? It just means being rational and reasonable and being able to decipher things through the lens of your own values. And I don't think that's a trait that's particular to one side. It can be these random people from Norway who just recognize what sense sounds like and follows it.

So it's just a statement, by the way, it's not, I'm not even happy about this realization, how powerful one's nature is. You overcame you departed from the whole world in which you lived. You have a BLM tattoo. Yeah. And no, it's so, it's so interesting. And yet you sat down— I, I don't, I wasn't there, but I— it's sort of you, like you sat down one day and said, wait a minute, it just doesn't make sense. That's your nature. That's what I'm saying.

I hope so.

I hope I carry that, whatever happened in that moment, with me throughout life, because I think it's very easy to abandon those things. And just stick to one side ideologically and just go for it down the line. So I hope I continue to carry that nature with me. I like to keep it in check.

I asked Amala once, I think it was about a year ago. I said, would you ever consider removing your BLM tattoo?

I think it's a Black Power, Black Power fist. Yeah.

And I really, I really appreciated your answer. You said, no, it's a part of me. I really liked that because I, if I were you, I would sort of wear it as a badge of honor. You know, this is what I believed. And look at the way that I transformed. I want to say one point before we move on from this common sense point that you raised. I remember in college when I would talk to people about my conservatism, that was sort of my study group. I'd go out and talk to all these left-wing college students about conservatism and see their reactions. It was hugely enlightening to me. And I remember people would call me far right. They would say that I had far— and they do this to you on the internet, I'm sure they do this to you too. You know, far-right conservative host Dennis Prager. And my response is, if advocating for the presence of police and opposing the genital mutilation of children is far-right, I mean, that again, that's just common sense.

That's what I did one day. I still think I'm a liberal. That's the— and I have a proof. A relative of mine, and it was, it was actually, it was, it was sad to me that this happened during the Trump era, who has known me much of my life, all of my life basically. And, and he wrote to me out of nowhere. We're not in contact much, but I've always had affection for him. And he wrote to me, I just don't understand, you've devoted your life to, to moral values, to teaching morality and you support Trump, what happened to you? That's the gist.

Yeah.

So I, I, I just look at these things as the, the price you pay. But I'm a— I, I wrote back. I didn't write back. I take it back. I, I did never— this just brings me to the point of what I wanted to say about my being a liberal. Had I written back, I would have said, you know me since I was a liberal Democrat. Tell me one value I have abandoned.

Yeah, I— that sparks an idea for me, and I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. It's something I've been mulling over for quite some time. I think I'm going to move forth in my career just not labeling myself as anything anymore, not coming forward, not coming forward and saying I'm a conservative woman. And it's not to say that I want to abandon the label or the group of people that it represents, but I feel as though when we're having conversations with people, the second you say conservative, they've already come up with an idea of what that means for you, and they've already put up a mental block for what's going to happen moving forward. So now I say, well, I'm a free-thinking person, or I'm a person who is skeptical of certain things, and on my show I just talk about the issues from my perspective and I do not label it. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that.

So I, I have thought about that. I am, I am proud of the term conservative. It's ironic because my column this week is What Is Conservatism? Uh, I have embraced it, uh, and the— if I only say I'm free thinking, I'm not giving credit to the people I largely agree with.

Sure.

So that's that. I totally get your desire to do that, and I wrestled with it for years. Look, I didn't become a Republican for that reason, for— till Reagan. And, and I thought, look, I, I don't agree with the Democratic Party, but I still want to say I'm a Democrat because maybe I can have an impact that way. But look at Alan Dershowitz. He's still a Democrat. He's still liberal. He literally— he said this to me, and he wrote a book on it. He has lost every single friend he had.

Hmm. It's unbelievable.

Unbelievable.

You know, I have thought about doing the same thing. It's so— you could see my reaction. It's so interesting that you just said that. Literally last night I was having a conversation with a friend about this very thing because she said to me, why do you label yourself as conservative? And I was thinking about it too. You know, should I just position myself as Julie, you know, a free thinker? But the reason ultimately at the end of the conversation why I came to Dennis's conclusion, why I'm proud of the term conservative, is because, look, I may not fall directly always into a conservative line of thinking. You know, for instance, I have expressed many times that I'm very conflicted about the issue of abortion. You know, part of me is pro-life, part of me is pro-choice, and I'm wrestling with that. So maybe I don't exactly fall into the conservative camp. However, I like using the term conservative because What animates me is conserving the principles of the American founding. And that term captures that. I don't want to progress away from it. I want to conserve something. And when I say that label, you're right that it comes with a whole host of assumptions or ideas. But first of all, I like the baggage that it comes with, because I don't think it's baggage, but also it captures what animates me and every position that I take, I'm trying to look back and preserve what I believe is unique and exceptional about this country.

Yeah, I guess, I guess my view on it is I always view it from the lens of my previous self. Right. And when I was going on the internet to find people who I resonated with me or whose ideas I can get behind, the second I heard conservative, I went, shut up.

Correct. So that's— no, no, that's fair. So, so you're saying tactically Yes.

Yes, tactically.

So give me an example, because I resonate to your desire, but I ultimately sided with being called conservative. Give me an example of someone who embodies what you want to do. Free thinking, has conservative views, but isn't labeled conservative.

You know, somebody who's recently been on my radar over the past few months is Russell Brand. Dennis Prager. And I don't know if you've watched any of his content or heard what he has to say. Now, of course, he talks about socialism in some of his videos, but he's very much anti-big corporation, anti-government overreach. He's having talks to people about what that means for society, about free speech, about upholding what are traditional American values.

Nobody on the left who has those values.

Yeah, right, right.

But he is functionally conservative.

Exactly. But he never expresses the word conservative.

So is he winning over people on the left?

It's interesting. So he's actually one of the fastest growing YouTube channels on the platform. And in a matter of, I would say a matter of months, he's hand over fist getting millions and millions of subscribers. And I go through and I keep a radar on people who are growing in this industry and in this business. And you read the comments and it's, I'm a liberal, but what you're saying is really resonating with me. And I, I, I You know, the hardline conservatives don't resonate with me. I'm a Democrat and I've been a registered Democrat my whole life. But what you're saying is pointing out something to me interesting. And he just sort of poses the question and goes, don't you think this is a little bit weird that they're doing this? And he points out all the players in the situation and he espouses conservative beliefs, but never says he's conservative and says he's just a free-thinking person who wants other people to stay free. And his message has broken the bounds of ideological groups.

That's an— all right, look, I'm not familiar with that example. I will look into it. So, so Sean just put in my earphones that he thinks Jordan Peterson is such an example. Jordan Peterson is— but he is labeled conservative, correct? So it almost doesn't matter what you say you are. If this Russell Brand starts winning people over to conservative ideas while calling himself a free thinker. I have a feeling that The Young Turks were going to catch on.

He has been attacked, certainly. He has been attacked and labeled, labeled far right by some.

So it's a very— it's another interesting question: tactics versus pure honesty. So I came to realize, because I went through that period when I My original title— somebody just raised this with me, said, I know you so long, Dennis. I remember you don't know this even. And Julie knows me very well. And I— he said, I am with you since you used to say you're a passionate centrist. That was my— that was my self-description. And gradually I realized Yeah, but there's actually a group that has all my passionate centrist views. They're called conservatives.

But I'm curious, how does the label serve you? Because somebody can watch my show for an hour and get—

It doesn't serve me.

Okay.

I serve it.

Okay, interesting. Okay, so you feel the need that because I have these views, I take on the label as a representation.

Dennis isn't the issue. The value system is.

Okay. See, I'm of the belief that My views speak for themselves and that is me being honest and telling you how I feel about a given situation. The label to me is becoming more and more unnecessary because I'm sure the label services some people that I maybe not, I'm not on the same side as. And it might hurt to label everybody and bunch us into one group.

I hear that hesitation. Right, but forgive me.

No, go on.

So my instinctive reaction is conservatives Islamism needs you. That would be my answer. And like her, conservatives don't care if you differ with them on X, Y, Z.

Even look at what I just said.

Yes, that's the most sensitive issue among conservatives. And she says she's ambivalent. I was with a guy, I don't remember, but who said on Salem Radio point blank I'm for same-sex marriage.

I said that.

Salem, you said it. I am too. You are too? Fine. Salem didn't send you or you— well, you're not with Salem. I mean, sure, well, you are in a sense. You sit in for me periodically, but obviously you don't work for Salem. You work for PragerU. PragerU didn't send you a note. No, it's a non-issue. We accept diversity of thought. Forget diversity of race, it's a non-issue, but diversity of thought is acceptable. It is not on the left. You deviate on one matter, you just say teenage girls should not have their breasts removed, you're out of the movement.

Yep. Yeah, I'm going to speak at a university on Friday in Minnesota, Winona State. And this is my second time going there. I went there last year. And this year the faculty association at the university put out a letter in the school newspaper saying, if you are a faculty member or a student who doesn't want to come to class or work that day, you don't have to work because she's such a threat and such a provocateur. That's, that's their view of things. It's unbelievable.

They just want a free day off. I really think that's what it is. Yeah, they just want a free day.

Well, you know what? I wish it were that. That is sick.

It's unbelievable. From faculty at a higher education institution.

You're free to take the day off in protest of Amalek Nobee's coming.

Yeah.

If you don't feel comfortable being on the campus Oh, comfort, this is the new sickness. If you're not comfortable. The purpose of life is not to be comfortable. The purpose of life is to be uncomfortable.

I completely agree.

See, I have a theory about this, and I've started asking this question of people. I was having a discussion, again, I love finding liberals and leftists wherever I can and talking with them because I learn so much. I was talking with someone the other day at Starbucks of all places about my views, and I said something about fatherlessness among the African American community, and that person responded that they were offended by what I was saying. And I asked them, I said, "I really want to say this with total respect to you. It's not a leading question, it's a genuine one. Are you truly offended by what I just said, or do you feel that you're obligated to say that you're offended? I.e., is that just your Pavlovian response?" I am, even though I said it wasn't a leading question, I did have my own suspicion. I think, of course, it is a Pavlovian response. I don't think that these people genuinely feel unsafe or uncomfortable by Omelas' presence. I think that they feel obligated because this is a precedent in the past and this is what liberals and leftists are supposed to do when a big bad conservative comes on campus. I just, again, think that it's contrived. It's their response that they think that they should have. To please other people. It's not the response I think that they genuinely have if you gave them 100% effective truth serum.

Who invited you to Winona State?

They're College Republicans there. Their little group invited me to come out for the second time.

How many people do you think will come?

You know, the first time I went there, which was when I was very fresh to this, a few hundred people came.

That's amazing. That's great.

Amazing.

So you'll have double that this time.

I'm sure. Now we've been blasted the letter to the editor that they put out.

So here's my theory, uh, and it's something— if you want to say it, say it. I'm just throwing it at you. The reason they're so uncomfortable when we come to their campus is I am certain that they suspect that in an hour and a half you can undo 4 years of their indoctrination.

I agree with you.

In 5 minutes?

Yeah.

Well, that's right, 5 minutes. That's right.

It's interesting because the last time I went on the campus, the campus response was, we are going to protest and we are going to be there when she's there. And I went and confronted them, and this is a video that people can check out online, and I said, let's just have a discussion about why you disagree with me. And it's a 20-minute video of them just completely embarrassing themselves, having nothing to say to me while holding these signs that say such strong things about my values and who I am. And that video got filmed, it got put on the internet, clips went out, TikToks went out, tweets went out about it, and it amassed probably over 20 million views collectively. And now it's interesting, now that I'm coming back, they're saying we must abstain from being at the campus and we, we need to not be around her, to not give you publicity. I think they're afraid of being embarrassed to the scale that they were embarrassed last year, and now their tactic is to stay away from the space that I'm at rather than confront me.

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Talking about the issue that we raised earlier about your feelings about America, your emotional reaction to the current state. So here's a reason, and I, I, my, my listeners know I, I never patronize them. I don't say, oh, here's a reason to be optimistic, but I don't really believe it. They know I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic. I just believe we have to fight. But here is a reason for optimism. The crowds we draw on campuses— we meaning all of us, if I may still say conservatives, free thinkers— sure, well, the free thinkers are conservative. I know you do. I'm just saying it's So I'm sort of challenging you on that because give— if this— a free-thinking leftist is no longer a leftist.

Sure.

So, so it— again, the cause needs you. So just—

fair enough, fair enough, right?

But anyway, it is fascinating. Uh, when I spoke to the University of Wyoming, and this is on— it's on YouTube— not only— I think there were 700 in the main room and then they had an overflow, hundreds more in another. Maybe there were 1,000 students. University of Wyoming. And Ben Shapiro goes to a college campus, you could see on YouTube, these gigantic auditoriums are full. How do you explain that? And then you'll get it, Winona State. How do you explain that?

I guess it comes back to that question you raised earlier, is this the worst time that we're truly in? And the reason I don't believe it is because people keep showing up in mass like that. And I think people truly are on our side of things by and large. The people that you're going to run into in the street will think you're a truly reasonable person and will respect you and show love to you regardless of what camp you're in. So I really think there's just a thirst for ideas and a thirst for brave and courageous people who are willing to say them out loud. The issue is people aren't willing to say them out loud. Out loud. But I think most people feel the way that we feel.

You think so?

I really do. Especially—

Yes, I do.

I, yeah, you know, I always harken back to Yuri Bezmenov, but he says like the final stage of ideological subversion is normalization where they just show you everything and go, hey, this is your new normal. And I think what happened is the progressive end of our spectrum did that way too soon, came out way too hard and were way too brash with espousing their most radical views. and people went, whoa, wait a second, I'm normal. This is not normal.

Yes.

My suspicion is the vast majority of Americans, not vast, the majority of Americans and certainly of non-conservatives there, I would say vast majority don't know nearly as much as any one of us sitting at this table.

Yes.

That's the problem.

I agree with Amma that most people are rational people. They don't think that we should be mutilating young children. They don't think that we should defund the police. But again, first of all, the reason why I'm concerned is that the left has all the power in this country. They control every single institution, I think, besides the police. And I think that's one of the reasons why they hate the police so much, because they haven't gotten their claws on that yet. But they control. So many of our institutions. And also, you're so right, Dennis, that a lot of people don't know just how bad things are. It is our job to research this all of the time. So we know, right? But people out there don't. And, you know, the example—

go on. I'm sorry.

No, no, that's okay. I just, I just want to say this because it is so important. I have a friend who was getting a— considering getting her fourth or fifth COVID vaccine. A week ago, and I said to her, please do not get it. We already had to get 3 in order to go back to school for our final semester. But I said, if I send you some things, will you just read them? And just again, obviously I'll respect whatever decision you make, but can you just read what I send to you before you do it? And to her credit, she said yes. So I called Dennis and Sue, who are, you know, professional researchers, and I said, please send me the best, you know, studies, etc. I sent my friend you know, the article about Denmark not offering vaccines to people under 50. I sent her this article that says that, that proves that the COVID boosters were not even tested on human beings. They were tested on mice only. I sent her statistics, statistics, excuse me, from Britain that in April and May, out of all the people who died of COVID 94% of them were vaccinated. In other words, many, many you know, just facts. And she, I could just tell that she thought that so much of this was a conspiracy theory. And it just showed, I'm like, I'm literally showing you the evidence here. But people, they, it's so alien to her because all, all that she has heard is that the vaccine is effective and safe, that when I send her things that are contrary to that, she literally views it as a conspiracy theory. And that shows your point that people are not exposed to the daily information that we are exposed to. So then when they hear us, there's an immediate hesitation and block just because, again, it seems so foreign.

Are you vaccinated?

No.

And they're letting you on the Winona State campus?

Yes.

Yes, they are.

But students have to be vaccinated, I'll bet.

I'm not sure. I, I, they've never broached the subject with me, but no, not with you.

But I, but yeah, yeah, I don't know. I just wonder how they allow unvaccinated speakers on campuses. I mean, at Harvard, wasn't it a requirement? Could you even attend classes if you weren't vaccinated?

You couldn't attend. You couldn't enroll.

You couldn't enroll.

And boosted.

You had to be double vaccinated and boosted. So does that apply to speakers?

I don't know.

It's an interesting question.

I don't know. I'm sure any speaker that would come to Harvard would automatically be vaccinated and boosted, but they did for students and faculty.

So why wouldn't they? It's a very good example. Of my sad realization that brains and being a fool are never mutually exclusive. A lot of bright people at Harvard, and nearly all of them are fools. Gigantic fools.

Well, there's a lot of knowledge but not a lot of wisdom.

Yeah, that's it. That's exactly right. Did you go to college?

Very briefly, so I—

You're a living example.

I dropped out. I went to a community college. I stopped going— I went directly to the left-leaning organization. From that, I started working at an allergy clinic, and the doctor was like, you would be a great nurse/midwife. So I said, okay, I'll become a midwife. Signed up for the nursing program.

Your life took a detour.

Oh, a big detour, and just at the right time.

Yogi Berra, when you come to a fork, take the left fork.

It's exactly what happened. And right in the nick of time, because all the COVID stuff started happening and they said nurses had to be vaccinated to be in the program and all this stuff.

Did your mother want you to be vaccinated?

Oh, she was not happy with the whole, the whole COVID narrative and the things that I was saying surrounding that. Certainly not. Yeah, not happy at all.

She probably thought that a lot of it were conspiracy theories.

Oh, 100%. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Well, this has been a total joy. I thought it would be 10 minutes, 10, 15 minutes, but I'm going to have Amala for only 10 minutes. I know, right? It's absurd.

And this is the nature of this podcast. We get on one thing and then it's just—

right down there.

Well, that's true for yours too. I mean, when I was on your podcast just a few weeks ago, I mean, you just went to the next subject, the next subject. I loved it.

We go all over the place.

By the way, Taylor is very good.

Oh, he is.

You know, I'd like you to communicate to him how impressed I was with him?

Of course. Yeah. He started out on camera being so nervous and just through this past year that we've been doing this, it's just blown through all of that. He's fantastic.

How did you find him?

He, he was working at PragerU when I got there and he's one of the people who found me. So we started working together and he was working with me on, you know, what type of show do you want to do? What do you want to talk about? And we just realized we had this really great synergy with the two of us. And have worked together ever since.

So people, most people know about you, but not everybody. So tell them how to reach you.

Oh yeah, sure. I do a podcast called Unapologetic Live that everybody can check out on any podcast platform. I'm also on all social media platforms at Amala Eponobi.

And there's a K in there.

Yeah, right. I think it'll be easier for Unapologetic.

Yes, I think so. Start there.

You used to say Eponobi. Kenobi.

No kidding, everybody does.

Well, who wouldn't? Let's be honest.

Let's be honest.

It's like I tell— I love doing this with— if I, I book most of my reservations online, but if I do it on the phone, they go, okay, could you spell your name please? I go, sure, P, P as in pneumonia, R-A-G-E-R. Oh God. And so here is it, by the way, this is, this is my little test. Am I talking to a robot in human form or a human. If she laughs, it's usually a woman, then I know that's a real person, right? If there's nothing, then I go, you didn't find that funny? I mean, give me a break.

Some people may not get it. Some people may literally think it is spelled starting with an N.

Wait, my name is Prager.

P is—

and they don't know me. Okay, P as in pneumonia.

No, people may be confused.

Well, then she would say, I'm confused.

Yeah, well, she may be laughing awkwardly because she doesn't know what you're talking about.

All right, there's that too. I used to do that.

I still do that.

Well, my grandparents. All right, you're terrific. Thanks for—

so fun having you.

Yeah, it was great.

Thank you for having me.

You're the first guest we've ever had.

Oh my gosh, we should get her a badge. This is an honor.

We're honored. All right. We love you, Amala.

Thank you so much.

Right. Okay.

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It really was fun. So I was thinking while the two of you were We're here, obviously. I'm hesitating because I don't want to overstate the case, and, and it's more wondering than even stating a case, but the equivalent males in— of your age are— seem to be a little harder to find. Yes, you know, we were blessed with Will Witt as an example, but it's— and there were terrific guys who were older, but your age, it does seem, uh, there, there might be more remarkable females than males from our perspective. Yes, and I'm saying it so hesitatingly because I may be completely wrong, but do you have any thought?

I do. Look, Amala and I are both 22 years old. We have a long life ahead of us and certainly more time to see how this plays out, meaning to see if there are the same amount of men as women who are outliers, as you like to say. In my experience so far, I have found, even though I agree with your stipulation that you wrote about a few weeks ago, that women are disproportionately ruining America, American society. I also think despite that, women are also, that I've met at my age, disproportionately outliers. Amla is an example.

But who are doing good for society.

Who are doing good for society, yes. Candace Owens is an example. I mean, she's 10 years older than we are.

All right, so if the women are disproportionately leading in the bad stuff, and disproportionately leading in the good stuff of your age.

Of my age. Yes.

So what does it say about the men? What are they doing? Are they— are they just— what is a bright man your age doing? Just worried about making a good living?

I think so. I've also noticed that bright men my age don't take a stand anymore. They're— they're very open-minded.

You know, for instance, they don't want to offend anyone.

Yes. We were talking about this the other night at Shabbat dinner. By the way, before I say this, I just want to, before I forget, say that we know that women's brains develop faster than men's brains. So this could just be a 22-year-old thing. And in a few years, perhaps I'll be seeing just as many men that are good outliers, if not more. But, oh gosh, what was the point I was going to say? I was going to talk about Shabbat dinner. What was it? Oh, yes. So, Jon, you can edit that out now that I've remembered.

Don't edit it out, Jon.

No.

We're real here.

The other night at Shabbat dinner, we were talking about, as we often do, dating. And Sue, your wife, raised this point. I thought it was really interesting that women care more about dating a man— I should say conservative women care more about dating a man who shares their values than a conservative man cares about dating a woman who shares his values. And I think that that may have something to do with the fact that I see more female people my age who are good outliers than males. Men my age right now are very concerned with hooking up with people in a way that I don't think women are. They're just, I'm sorry to say it, they're just hornier than women. So again, maybe they don't want to take a stand because they think it will deter them from hooking up with a liberal woman.

Oh my God.

I'm not kidding. That's my theory.

That's a great theory.

I'm not kidding. That is my theory. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it's true.

Oh my God.

Because women—

okay, so I— revelation for you.

Yes.

So I was as interested in women when I would— I'm still interested in women, but I'm monogamous. But in my 20s, I didn't marry till 32. I remember being on an Air Canada flight. There was a beautiful stewardess, and it was a time where it was, it was pretty much a given, you know, if this— if they were called stewardesses— if she, if she liked the guy who started flirting with her in some sophisticated way, hopefully, which I thought I was, you would get her number and you would meet somewhere. Well, it turned out that the woman was a communist. I mean, a bona fide communist.

Oh no.

Yes. And I, from Portuguese extraction, that's how well I remember this. And I remember debating in my mind, well, she's gorgeous. On the other hand, she's a communist. She's gorgeous. On the other hand, typical male brain, right? So I, I, I'm, I'm lending credibility to your theory. If me— and I, I was— I hated communism and I hated communists, right? On the other hand, she's gorgeous.

Oh my God.

Well, I know it's worthy of an oh my God.

I have seen— I know some conservative men at Harvard, and when they are hooking up with a girl who is a left-winger, I'll say to them, hey, I know that you don't agree with her. Why are you hooking up with her? She's hot.

Exactly.

I know that I— because this makes sense, because women care more about the emotional connection when they have— when they are physically intimate with someone. So I, as a conservative woman, would not feel that emotional connection to a communist. Yes, to a communist. No matter how gorgeous, no matter how gorgeous, as Amlo would say, of a man.

This is so real.

This guy, I love it.

I just love it.

You know, I want to say one thing, just commenting. I was thinking about this as Amlo was leaving. It's so fun that we were able to do this. And one of the things that I love, I think I've said it on this program before, but it's worth saying again. One of the things that I love about conservatism, by the way, we should talk about the labels thing too, just because I use that term conservatism. Everyone is so supportive of one another. Everyone who I have met, I remember last summer when I was working, or the summer before that, when I was working for you, you were collaborating with the Daily Wire and You know, you were giving them suggestions for videos that they should do, and they were giving you suggestions for videos that you should do. And I said to you, aren't you guys competitors? It's remarkable that you collaborate the way you do. And you said, we are all rowing in the same boat. We are all part of the same team. And we so badly want the other to do well because, again, we're animated by things that are higher than ourselves. That's what I was saying earlier in this conversation with Amala. When we were talking about fame. I said, I know when I'm behind the microphone that it's not just about elevating myself.

It's a—

there's a greater thing that I am striving for here, and that is to save this country. And you guys all share that, and that is why we all have such great relationships with one another. It's not like, I'll scratch your back and you'll scratch mine, you'll come on my show and I'll go on your show. It's genuinely just, how can we get the word out there? It's really, really refreshing.

So that's why I hope she continues to use the label conservative.

I do too.

Yeah, I was glad I reacted because obviously I adore her, and PragerU adores her, but it's— there's no such thing. There's no group. There has to be a movement larger than yourself, and the— there's no group called free thinkers, right? There's conservative, there's liberal, there's leftist. That's what exists. It's like the libertarians who are conservative who vote for the Libertarian Party and throw the elections to the left. It's extremely naive at best and utterly destructive and narcissistic at worst. You've got to join with others whether you agree with everything they stand for or not. It's irrelevant. And we are in the group called conservative. If we were called watermelons or cantaloupes, I would be a cantaloupe. Yes, that's, that's just the way it is.

Well, as I expressed when Amala brought it up, I have thought about that too, really from a tactical perspective, as she said, because again, I am concerned with bringing the most people in so I can convince them of our values. But A, as I mentioned, I like the term conservative because I think the name itself captures what animates me to conserve the principles of the founding. But also, I like using it because nowadays people are so afraid to take a stand, at least the people that I have grown up with and gone to school with. They are so afraid to say what they really believe in. I was just discussing the lukewarm moral reactions that people have to the evil that is going on in this country. So I love calling myself a conservative because I want to be an example of someone who is young and female, and I am proudly saying that I'm conservative. I'm not trying to qualify it. I'm not trying to hide it. I am very proud. And I think that does, I think that leaves more of an impression on people than not labeling yourself. I get her hesitation.

By leaving the label, you're giving them a victory.

Exactly. I get her hesitation because nowadays we do reduce people so much to labels.

No, no, I get it too. I flirted with it.

But we reduce people, I find, mostly to demographic labels. You know, I'm a Black woman, I'm a queer man, et cetera. And you know, the thing I like to say about conservatism when people ask me, you know, why do you identify as a conservative? I say, Look, conservatism is my compass. One of the things that I love about it as a worldview is that it forces you to define your values and your principles. I know that when I am, you know, approaching a life question or a political question, my conservative worldview is what guides me. But if my compass leads me into a muddy field, You know, if I, if it leads me somewhere that I don't like, I'll abandon it and use my own judgment. But overall, I think it's a good thing that I have a set of principles and values that guide me. And that's what I want to impart to the audience because nowadays people don't have principles that they put higher than themselves. They just choose to follow their conscience. And that to me is our biggest problem.

Really well said, which brings me to our final subject. Today, for the first time, I guess, in 3 years, the next volume of my Bible commentary is out today, this very day. Let me show it here for those watching.

I'm so excited. Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy, the 5th of the first 5 books, the 3rd of my volumes. I'll eventually do all 5, God willing.

Who designs your covers?

So it's a process. We choose the painting. Regnery did a phenomenal job. The whole book is— by the way, I have to approve the paper or it doesn't get published. Authors should all do that. This is gorgeous paper, gorgeous type. Regnery did a great, great job. I have to tell them. Normally I say to people, I don't care if you get the Audible, I don't care if you get the Kindle, but in this case, I think people should get the the actual book because it's so beautiful. So I want you to know, when I see your copies of Genesis and Exodus and how much you have marked them up— you people say, so you— yes, that's right.

Those of you watching, I'm showing— I, I don't even think I told you that I brought this today, but every page—

I didn't know. Yeah.

Every page is high.

I want you to know, so people say— so it just happened, in fact, at a recent dinner. People say, so aren't you excited that, you know, your book's coming out? Uh, on, on, you know, they say the date. I said, I'm, I'm not at all jaded. It's a wonderful thing. But, uh, I, I said, I'll tell you what excites me. I thought about it because I always analyze myself. I'm excited by the reviews on Amazon. There are 4,000 of them. This changed my life. That excites me more than the actual date of publication. Seeing someone of your depth underline on every page some point I make, that excites me. So it's not that I don't get excited from this, it's that the publication isn't what does it. It's the reaction to it.

Right. Well, you said this to me once because I was telling you how much this work has influenced me, and you said, I've become numb sometimes to the power of my words. And I have noticed that that happens to me when I'm talking on this podcast. Someone will say, you made such an interesting point to me. It really resonated. I never thought of it that way before. And to us, it seems obvious because this is what we're doing all day. It's our job to come up with these interesting points and to learn. But it really, this, your Bible commentary is, I know I've said this so many times on this program. I am going to tell people to the best of my ability how much it has influenced me. But sometimes I feel like I am sucking up or I'm, people are going to think—

Nobody thinks that.

It is, I really think it is the most extraordinary book I've ever read. This book has done more to shape my thinking than anything else I've consumed. It is, it is, you really have accomplished something remarkable. I was thinking about this on the drive over today because I thought, how am I going to talk about this book in a way that does it justice? It is so, you write with such clarity and such simplicity that you make very hard things understandable and palatable to people. And yet you do not sacrifice the profundity of your point. You have this incredible ability to say things concisely and simply, but also still pack a punch. Another thing I love about this book is that it's all in bullet points, or many of the points that you have about a particular passage are. It's designed in a way to not be just straight through prose. And I think that that's very good mentally for the reader. I think also from this book, you will be getting a sense of history as well as religion.

You—

what's so remarkable is that you point out, you make the hardest, the hardest passages understandable, for instance, and not just understandable, but interesting. I think in chapter 5 or 6 of Genesis, it's one of those lineage chapters where they just go, 'Blank was the son of blank and lived till 100 years.' And most people just flip through that and go, 'Okay, I don't know why the Bible wrote that in.' But what you say about that particular part of the book is you go, 'This is actually not something that you should pass over. This is significant because previous societies valued or just would talk about lineage with regard to kings or heads of households. But it is important that the Bible states individuals because it shows that the Bible values individuals. This is such a great example of how you take something that seems insignificant and you turn it into something meaningful. And that makes you understand and respect the Bible even more if you understand those seemingly insignificant things. And I think also, you— the way that you explain the stories has such an impact because you pull out the hidden message that God is trying to say, or perhaps I shouldn't say the hidden message, the more—

Yeah, it's sometimes hidden.

Yeah, not obvious message. I love to point to the Cain and Abel story. If you read that story, you just know, okay, Cain made a sacrifice to God, Abel made a sacrifice to God, Abel had the better sacrifice, and Cain was jealous. Most people would just go, okay, moving on. But you say, hey, there's something important to this. Do you seek to envy or emulate the people that do better than you? With every single story, you point out the moral significance. And I originally bought this book because I wanted to get a sense of history. I thought just to be a learned person, it was important to read the Bible. But you actually made me religious because you convinced me of just how wise it is.

Well, it was worth it just to get that reaction from you.

You know, I feel like it was sort of a laundry list that I just spat out, but it— there are so many things about it that make it so exceptional. So forgive me if it seemed disorganized.

More than excited about its publication today, there's a sadness in me. I know this will sound— whatever it'll sound, I don't care. I I totally— this is what I feel. I just wish everybody read it.

Right.

Has nothing to do with money. Nobody writes Bible commentaries for money. It has to do with— this will answer most people's issues in life. The purpose of life, good and evil, meaning, men and women, God, everything. Because everything is in these 5 books. You talked about my— the lesson I offered on Cain and Abel. So Cain could have said, which he did, oh, I resent his better sacrifice. I'll beat him or kill him. We don't know if he intended to kill him, but he killed him. There's another phenomenal story where I think it's with, uh, with Isaac. So I, Isaac had— I think it was Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. I think it was Isaac. It might have been Jacob. Doesn't— might have been Abraham. Doesn't matter what the lesson matters. So the Philistines, the surrounding people who had a failing economy, saw that he had wells that really worked. So the story is so perfect for our time. So what did these Philistines do? You would think they'd go, gee, he got rich with his wells, let's figure out well technology. No, they filled his wells with dirt. That is a perfect metaphor for the life in which we live. Let's destroy those who are successful, not emulate them. By the way, that's the root of antisemitism.

Yes. We talked about this.

And it's the root of anti-Americanism.

Yes.

People hate America because it's been successful. So let's tear it down, not let's emulate.

Well, that's your stipulation that most people who have hated the Jews, it's because they actually do perhaps subconsciously believe that they're the chosen people.

Right.

Because if they didn't think the Jews are the chosen people, then they go, oh, they say they're the chosen people.

So what?

So what? They're a bunch of kooks.

Another example that I love, because I don't just try to convince people on this podcast to buy this book, I try to convince my friends in my life to buy it. You know, I actually send them signed copies. And one of the examples that I love to bring up is your essay on why it's important that God is a he.

Depicted as a he.

Depicted as a he, thank you. Again, you just, I feel like a broken record.

I worked very hard on that essay. There are a lot of essays in the book for just people who don't have one.

You make everything understandable. Everything. Things that you— things that I wouldn't even think of, you make understandable. And look, it's a daunting thing to read the Bible. It is.

It is.

Because it seems like it's going to, you know, the diction is going to be difficult, the concepts are going to be difficult, and you make it really, really digestible.

So folks, you gotta buy it. Seriously, I hope you do. Here it is, beautifully printed today. It's a 10-year project. This is the third of the five volumes I've done. The book that the founders of America quoted more than any other book, secular or religious— Deuteronomy.

Incredible.

Well, it's been great being with you.

Oh yes, we have to talk about last week. So last week I told you this story of the transgender barista at the coffee store that I go to and how she said to me, "You know, Julie, you are so sweet. You are one of the nicest people that comes in here. We have so many people that are rude and don't have any time, but you are not like that." And remember I said to you, I had the urge in that moment to tell her that I am conservative. Because that happens to me so much in life. People think I'm a nice person and I know that they're left-wing and they like me, and then if I tell them that I'm conservative, it seems to kind of burst their bubble. So I didn't, I actually got a lot of people writing in who said, for some reason people had an aversion to me telling her that I was conservative. And I should, maybe next time I'll read one of the emails.

That's fascinating.

Yeah.

Why would they have an aversion?

I think what they said was, is it really— I mean, is it really necessary? Like, can't you just have a relationship with her without bringing politics into it?

Okay, I have an answer to that, right? It has nothing to do with politics. It's morality. I don't give a damn about politics, right?

I don't either.

I only care about right and wrong, good and evil, meaningful and meaningless, helpful and hurtful. So the dismissal of this notion— I'm not a conservative because I care about politicians. I care about politicians because I care about who's in power. Because if we have a bigger and bigger government, we have less and less freedom, and I cherish freedom. Is my cherishing of freedom political or is it moral? No, that's it. I'm posing this question to that person. You're— so you're saying that you're a conservative after this, this person who probably thinks conservatives are all hate-filled people. How could that not be a good thing that you have Added to the sum total of kindness on Earth.

And I want to open their minds to the fact that conservatives are not these evil villains that you think they are. But I decided, and it wasn't because obviously I'm not ashamed to say I'm conservative, look at what I do as my job, but I decided to tell this barista, or at least indicate it to this barista in a different way. I said to her, Yesterday or 2 days ago when I was there, I said, you know, I come here a lot and we kind of have this rapport, but I don't think I've ever told you about my job. I actually do a semi-public job. I do a podcast with a talk show host named Dennis Prager. She didn't know of you. And I said, I just gave her, I wrote down my website and I said, look up Dennis and Julie on YouTube. And I just passed it to her. And she said, oh, I will. So I'm sorry to add to the suspense more.

Oh, I am aching to know.

That is what I did.

Oh, that's great.

I don't know if when I come back into the coffee store, I don't know if I'm going to get hot coffee in my face. I don't know if I'm going to get a hug. I have no idea what I'm going to get. But I thought, you know, just let her see for herself what I think. And, you know, I want her to see the entirety of of my values. Obviously she's not going to binge watch Dennis and Julie. I mean, maybe she will, I don't know. Meaning obviously she's not going to watch everything that I've done, but I want her to listen to an episode because not only do I want her to know that I'm conservative, but I want her to see how real this is. And I want in many ways to debunk the stereotypes that she may have of conservatives.

I couldn't agree more.

By the way, maybe she's listening. Hi.

Oh, that's right.

I know sometimes we forget when we talk about people, they could be listening. All right, folks, buy Deuteronomy and contact me at julie-hartman.com. That's the website name that I gave to the barista. You can email me at julie@julie-hartman.com and follow us on social media, on Instagram and Twitter @DennisJuliePod. And on Facebook, it's called The Dennis and Julie Podcast. And look out for my show, which It's going to be called Timeless with Julie Hartman. It's going to be launching in the next 2 weeks, so I'll give you another update on that the next time we're on Dennis and Julie. But it is coming soon, and I'm very excited about it. My set is actually right here, Dennis, so he can't get rid of me even if he wants to.

I don't want to.

Thanks everyone, take care. Everybody wants the same thing. I'm gonna leave it all out there to dry.

I'm gonna leave it all out there.