Is There a Moral Case for the Death Penalty? | Sunday Fireside Chat

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Hi everybody, I'm Dennis Prager. This is the Fireside Chat. Fireside Chat. Otto is the wrong side. Oh, you're getting Otto's tush. We, we asked him to have his head on the other side, but he, he's a little camera shy. Yeah. So there's nothing we can do about it. So if you want to see his face, you'll have to watch Other fireside chats, which by the way, in all seriousness, is a very good idea. I do believe that all 180— this is 180, wow— are valuable. So if you go to previous ones, there's a lot of material to think about about life in all of them. So just a reminder, because While on occasion I talk about a topic that's in the news, I will always make points that transcend that topic. Otherwise, I don't even talk about it. So I, I was reading an article in the Daily Mail just this week. Here is the, here is the headline: Serial killer and child molester Joseph Duncan, 58, dies on death row from brain cancer. Decades after slaughtering 3 young boys and an Idaho family. Nearly 16 years after murdering 3 young boys and a North Idaho family, a convicted child molester and killer has died of brain cancer on death row. He was sentenced to death in 2007 for the Idaho murder of 9-year-old Dylan Groen, His brother Slade, grown 13, his mother Brenda, grown 40, and her fiancé Mark McKenzie, 37. In 2011, he admitted murdering another young boy, 10-year-old Anthony Martinez. Duncan was also linked to the killings of 2 young girls in Seattle in the 1990s. In 2005, Duncan was accused of molesting a young boy on a playground in Minnesota. He posted a low bail and skipped town. Okay, so he finally died slaughtering, molesting, torturing. So I want to read to you what was sort of buried in the article: reactions of some members of the family. Of the slaughtered ones. So this is stated by Anthony Martinez's mother. Anthony Martinez was 10 years old when Duncan murdered him. The sun is a little brighter today, said Diane Martinez, Anthony's mother. My soul is lighter. The world is a more beautiful place. Without the evil that is Joseph Duncan. God chose to make his end a long suffering, and I believe that is fitting. The horror of his thoughts consumed him. Anthony's younger brother Marcos said, there is now less evil in the world. God has brought pure justice for all those Joseph Duncan Has hurt. So, you know, almost always, not always, but almost always, when I read about these murderers, I see if the article will have any of the reactions of the family members of the murdered. And almost always they are like that. I quote in an article I will bring to your attention in a moment, an essay on capital punishment that I pray you read, that the doctor in the infamous case in Connecticut where 2 guys came Murdered this doctor's fam, beat him to a pulp, but he survived. They came into his family; they raped the mother and the daughters, and they murdered all of them, and then burned down the house. And I think the girls were alive when the fire began. And this doctor—I don't know if he was a liberal or a conservative. But he, he spoke out often that they, they should die. He's not often quoted on that because he— Connecticut doctors tend to be assumed to be on the liberal side, and they don't like to quote anybody who has these thoughts that these murderers Torturers should should die. I have never wavered on this issue. This is one issue that I have. I feel as strongly today as when I was a teenager. There is something grotesque, truly grotesque, about the idea that every murderer should be allowed to live. Some yes. If it's not first-degree, not premeditated, no torture. I don't think every murderer should be put to death. But the abolitionists think every murderer should be allowed to live, no matter how many they slaughtered. Adolf Eichmann was the architect of the Holocaust. He was Hitler's accountant, the guy overseeing the slaughter of the 6 million Jews in Europe. 6 million. Including about 1.5 million children. The Nazis considered Jewish children as worthy of death as adults. And Israel, which does not have the death penalty, never had it, executed Eichmann. I think it was the only— there might have been one other. It was the only person they ever executed. Even anti-capital punishment Israel thought, you know what, if you oversee the murder of millions of innocent people, you don't deserve to live. Of course, my challenge to Israel was, okay, so if you kill millions, you deserve to die. But you, if you only kill 2, then you don't? Why? Those 2 lives are less precious? The evil is less evil? For any given individual, it's a purely emotional reaction on Israel's part. It was purely emotional. And by the way, there were people even then that said, oh no, Eichmann should live. And I never related to this. I've always said that there is a tremendous, a Grand Canyon-like chasm Between those who think some murderers should die and those who think every murderer should be allowed to live. It's almost like we don't even understand each other, which may well be. We may not understand each other. If you go on the internet, you could actually see I was on the late Larry King had a very popular show, the most popular in America on CNN, and I was a guest periodically on his show, and he invited me to talk about capital punishment. And there was a— some actor, I don't remember his name and it's not important, was leading a vigil at a prison where a man was about to be executed for murder. And he had him on and he had me on. And that man, he said, oh, Prager, or something like that. You're, you're, you're— what is it? Something like licking your lips at the thought of, of, of another killing and bloodshed. I mean, so as if I, I enjoy the idea that, that people die. It was— but that was his mindset, that if you believe some murderer should die, you are a big fan Of bloodshed. So it made it clear to me we don't understand each other. So I said to him, I'm just curious, you're having a vigil now outside the prison where the man is about to be executed. Have you ever had a vigil at the home of the murdered? I got no answer. The preoccupation with murderers rather than the murdered. Is one of the sick parts of the anti-capital punishment movement. That's why I read to you these people's reactions. This is just this week in the Daily Mail. I could, I could get you this from any week where they recorded the reactions of people whose loved ones were murdered or loved one was murdered. There are so many arguments that I respond to, like, it's just revenge, it's state murder, it's— so an innocent may die. I know all the— it doesn't deter other murders. I know all the arguments, and there are answers, moral, rational answers to all the arguments. So I want to bring this to your attention, because if you care about this, and you should— so in my book of essays, and if you want an introduction to my thinking, this is the best of my books for that. Think a Second Time. It's in paperback, as you see, and it's got 44 essays on 44 subjects. One of them is on capital punishment. I have gotten many, many emails over the course of years. This essay alone changed people's minds about capital punishment. So I, I, whatever your position, if you're open to reasoned arguments in a way that you don't agree with, this is what you should get. And you'll like the other essays too. They're very provocative. Now, I'm not going to go through all the arguments, but I will just say a few things about the most common ones. The idea that it is revenge. All punishment is revenge. Of course it is. If you lock a person away for life, which is what the abolitionists want, why isn't that revenge? You'll say, well, that's to keep people safe. Come on, you commit a murder at 22 and you're in prison at 70? You're protecting society? Give me a break. The guy's not gonna murder again at 70. Everybody knows that, including me. So of course it's revenge. All punishment has an element of revenge. The issue is not whether it's revenge. The issue is whether it is just revenge. Just revenge has a word for it. It's called punishment. Unjust revenge is where if you step on my toe and then I stab you, that's revenge. That's unjust revenge. Okay, where the reaction is excessive. But this is not excessive. Why, if I take your life deliberately, like the 2 monsters who took the family of the doctor's lives, those— the wife and 2 daughters— why is that— why is it just that they be allowed to keep their lives? You take my life, but nobody takes your life? I mean, we don't even have that view about bicycles. If you steal a bicycle, why should you be allowed to keep your bicycle? Isn't this something unjust? I will never— let's say I never have a bicycle again and you have a bicycle the rest of your life. Is that fair? No, of course not. So substitute the word life for bicycle. It's just not fair. It's— on the fairness issue alone, isn't it obvious? I don't deserve to keep my life if I deliberately take yours. That's— it's elementary. State murder? William Buckley had a great answer to state murder. He said, well, imprisonment then is state kidnapping. I found that to be very effective. As to deterrence, oh, it doesn't deter? Give me a break. Every single punishment deters. That's one of the reasons we have punishment, right? Drive in the high occupancy vehicle lane or the diamond lane or whatever you call it wherever you are. And there's a $300 fine or whatever it might be. Why is that sign up there? To deter people. What if they said no fine? If there was no fine, everybody would drive in that lane. So punishment is— of course it deters. So the people who say that capital punishment doesn't deter, they're saying that the only crime that is never deterrable is murder. That's an absurdity. It's all absurd. All the arguments are absurd. The only one that's not absurd is an innocent may get executed. That is not absurd. I fully acknowledge that. That's the one argument that I acknowledge is against capital punishment that is not absurd. So what you do is you have a system whereby you have reduced the chance of a mistake to virtually zero. I mean, there are cases where with DNA, where, or even video, Where there is no question. With Eichmann, there was no question. That's an obvious— with this guy, there was no question. Where there is a scintilla of doubt, then I would say we have to wait till there's no scintilla of doubt. But there is no position that society ever takes that makes sure no innocent will die. We could then have no positions. Innocents die when we raise the speed limit from 55 to 65. What if somebody said, you know, I'm just telling you— and by the way, we're talking thousands over the course of time. Thousands of innocents die when we raise the speed limit. Why should we raise the speed limit? If the only issue in life is innocents may die, then we would have to— we would have to ban automobiles for that matter. But the greater good is that people are allowed to drive because there was so much— The greater good is that we have capital punishment. There's an answer to all of these things. On the deterrence, the best I ever heard was a man named Ernest Vanden Haag, who's a brilliant, brilliant thinker. And I quote him in my essay in Think a Second Time. He had a very fascinating little quiz on the deterrence issue. He said, let's imagine a state in the United States said the following. All murders committed on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday—capital punishment. All murders committed on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday—no capital punishment. Do you think that over the course of time there would be an equal number of murders each day of the week? I think that that makes it so clear. Well, it— does it deter anybody? Of course. Does it deter everybody? No punishment deters everybody. I wish they did. I wish the punishments did. So I actually think— I know this is going to sound terrible, but I will let the chips fall where they may. I think that there is— not only do we think differently, We who are for capital punishment for murder and those who oppose it in all cases, we don't only have a different mind in this regard; we have a different heart. I don't understand the heart that says let these people live. Do you know that I was at the I think the biggest state prison in America, Angola State Prison in Louisiana? I was invited to go there. Mostly it's convicted murderers. I spent the day in Louisiana with convicted murderers. So I was speaking to about, I don't remember, a dozen, 10. I don't remember the exact number. I wrote about it in one of my articles. And in fact, in my commentary, In the Rational Bible, in one of the volumes, I mentioned this story with the exact numbers. I asked about a dozen convicted murderers at Angola State Prison, how many of you are for capital punishment for premeditated murder? I thought no hands would go up. Most of the hands, a majority of them thought it was fitting. They might have been executed themselves. It's a very, very interesting, obviously very interesting vote. I have a picture, by the way, with them and their hands up. I knew I needed to record it lest people think I made it up, but I never make these things up because I care about truth. So I thought I would just share that with you with regards to an issue that I know that my side is losing on because of the emotional pull of, oh, let's not kill anybody. All right, let's go to your questions. And here we go. You are about to see part of Meghan, that the most famous arm in America. She is seated next to Charlie, who is our cameraman's dog. Charlie, I find Charlie adorable. Any way that people could see Charlie? I hate to talk about Charlie. Meghan, you wanted to show Charlie in the camera, or? We can put an image or— You'll put an image up of Charlie?

We can do a little cut.

You know what is interesting about Charlie? Every time I say Charlie, he looks up. That's intelligence. This is no dummy, your Charlie Rodrigo, let me say. Anyway, would Rodrigo have a stupid dog? I mean, let's, uh, come on. This is Rodrigo. Okay. Only the best. All right, here we go. But no, no, it's not a blessing to have a bright dog. It's a mixed bag. Oh, I said only the best. You said only the best. That's what I'm reacting to. I'm not sure that a smart dog is the best.

Yeah.

I'm about to say something which, uh, like, he's not brilliant, okay? I, I love him, but I, I see— I don't look to dogs for intelligence. I look to humans for intelligence, but Dogs, I look for warmth, fun. Do you make me laugh a lot? But, you know, their views on capital punishment. He's pro-capital punishment. Oh, well, he's really bright, to be fair. Yeah. Okay, here we go. Question.

So excited. Dennis, first-time caller, longtime listener. I'm Hugh. I'm 65 and I'm in Virginia. I've heard forever that you played basketball on Madison Square Garden. I've heard that you played with Lenny. Can you tell everybody the story? I mean, the whole story, because I've only heard little bits and pieces of it, and everybody wants to know about you and Madison Square Garden.

Okay, this needs a little background. I did not know this was going to happen. Hugh Hewitt, my colleague and friend, was making a video at PragerU. He's a scholar of American presidents. We're doing a series on American presidents, so he's doing Richard Nixon. So apparently somebody had an idea. I don't know who it was because I'd like to kill them, but, uh, somebody had an idea of having Hugh pose a question to me instead of people 1/3 his age. I don't care about his age, that's fine, but that, that he is skewed the balance by By a large measure, Hugh has a joy in my telling this story. We have been on panels around the country a number of times, and almost every time he asks me to tell this story. And what am I going to say? No, the audience at that point is dying to hear what the story. So here's the story. And it— I have a lot of funny, embarrassing stories in my life. A lot. An abnormal number. So here's one of them. So a little background. When I was in high school, I was the tallest kid in the high school at 6'4. I have no basketball talent. I mean, you have to understand. Not a little, not mediocre, just nothing. When God gave out basketball talent, I was in a different line. All right? That's how I look at life. What line were you in prior to birth? And I was not in the basketball— I was in the racquetball talent line, the tennis talent line, but not the basketball talent line. However, given my height, I made the team. In my sophomore year, and I recall the coach saying as follows at the final cut: "Prager made the team. We have really scraped the bottom of the barrel." By the way, I would like to share with you my inner reaction. I remember it like yesterday when he said that. I had two immediately reactions. 2 immediate reactions. One, this guy is an a-hole. The other one was, this guy is entirely right. By the way, that was such a healthy reaction. I realize, because it's hard to remember, were you healthy psychologically in high school? It's hard to remember. But this is a giveaway that I was blessed with an ability To, to ask, is something true? Not does it bother me, but is it true? So did it bother me? A little bit. But was it true? Yes, they did scrape the bottom of the barrel putting me on the team. Okay, that's important that you know that. Now, as it happens, my high school Every year played a game in Madison Square Garden. I grew up in New York City, in Brooklyn, and my high school was invited because it did so well the previous year to play a game against another high school in the same league before a New York Knicks NBA game. Madison Square Garden. Now, I belonged on the floor of Madison Square Garden. Like I, like I do in, I don't know, a polo match. Okay. But I was, I was on the team. Now, my prayer was I would never get in the game. And until 56 seconds left, my prayers were answered. Now, you must understand, and I'm not boasting about this, it's just a fact. I don't find basketball terribly interesting. I love hockey. I love baseball. So it's not a matter of sports. I just— I don't find basketball. Others do. It's not a right or wrong. It's a taste issue. So I wasn't following the game. I didn't even know what basket we were shooting at. 56 seconds left. It was mathematically impossible for my team to win. So I was tapped to go into the game. Which was very rare that I get nervous. Very rare. But the reason I was nervous was, A, I'm not a good player. B, there are a lot of people now in the stands because this is the end of the pre-Knicks game. And C, I didn't know what basket we were shooting at. So I looked over to the guy next to me. You have to understand, I was spending the entire game making jokes. I'm a pretty funny guy, and I was cracking up the guy next to me, and I got a big kick out of cracking the guy up. You know, I'd make observations about things going on in Madison Square Garden—the popcorn vendors, the pretty women, whatever it was—and I go over to him and I go. Snack Bar. His name was Isaac Knackbar. Everybody called him Snack Bar. I go, Snack Bar, quickly, what basket are we shooting to? And he just laughed. For about 35 years, I thought he was being mean, playing a joke on me, not telling me what basket we would shoot to. Finally, at a class reunion about 40 years after graduating, I went over to him and I said, Snackbar, why didn't you tell me what basket? He said, I thought you were joking, which makes perfect sense. Who the hell doesn't know what basket you're shooting to? So we go on to the thing. There's a jump ball. And I ran to the wrong side. And I will never forget, I was standing sort of alone next to one of the referees. And the guy looks at me, and I'll never forget, he goes, hey kid, are you some sort of schmuck? And I thought, same thing with the coach. It was a disgusting thing to say, but I was some sort of schmuck. What the hell am I doing on the wrong side of the court? By the way, it has now entered legend that I shot at the wrong basket. That is not true. It is not true for a very good reason. I did everything possible to avoid contact with the ball. And, and so that is what happened on my only time Playing in Madison Square Garden. And for reasons unknown to me, this brings Hugh Hewitt great joy. All right, next. All right, Jeff. Wait, is that right? Jeff in Murrieta? Where's that? Georgia, right? I think so. I really enjoyed listening to your talks. However, I was a little offended by something you said on your January 14th fireside chat. Offense might be too strong a word. You said, and correct me if I misquote, that those of us who are secular, non-religious, have no passion or misguided passion. Is there no room in this world for the passionate agnostic or atheist individual? The way you described the liberal as being indifferent to the left, I am conservative but indifferent to the religious right. I am, however, a vicious defender of freedom of religion. Have you ever thought about that perspective? Is my passion for anything not of sufficient caliber? Thank you, and I still look forward to listening to many more fireside chats. You're a good man. I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever said that secular people do not have passion. I never said it. I never hinted it. They have passion, though, in many, many instances, certainly not all, for substitute religions, for secular religions. That's what Marxism and communism And fascism and Nazism and environmentalism, I'm not lumping them all as moral equivalent. I'm just giving you secular ideologies that people had passion for. Liberalism and sometimes conservatism and environmentalism and feminism, all these isms, they're all secular substitutes for religion. People have a tremendous amount of passion. Secularism doesn't kill passion. It kills religious passion. That's a— well, it doesn't even kill religious passion because you have a secular religious passion. So anyway, I never said that. But it's very dangerous what happens when Christianity has died in Europe after World War I. Look at what we got. Fascism, Nazism, and communism. Look at America. What are we getting now? Fewer Americans, it's the first time in history that a minority of Americans regularly attend church. First time in American history. Is America better off? Obviously, some people think so. Really? You look around in America, you think the moral chaos that we're living through and the sustained violence of 2020? I don't know. I'm not optimistic for an America wherein there is a decline in the Judeo-Christian value system. By the way, my column this week, I hope you see, explains in the size of one column what Judeo-Christian values are. Nobody explains them. Everybody mentions them, but nobody explains them. I explained, I gave 11 examples of those values. So I'm glad you asked it, and I thank you, and I, and I'm happy you're on our side and you're defending a religion. Look, I had Douglas Murray in this room. Douglas Murray is gay. Douglas Murray is agnostic or secular. And Douglas Murray is one of the greatest defenders of Western civilization. And Douglas Murray Has spoken about this terrible hole that has been caused by the death of religion in the West, and it's being filled by some pretty bad stuff. So, uh, he, who is not religious, understands this, and I hope everybody does. There's a hole left when this goes. Are we already there?

Mm-hmm.

Wow! Just that time. It goes fast. That's a very good sign, by the way. And look who's showing up, Snoopy. Come on, say hello. Yeah. Oh, oh, oh, Snoopy's over here. Snoopy. Oh, that might have been a trifecta today, folks. Three dogs. Snoopy. Oh, forget it. He's looking for his mother, and that's the end of life. He lives for her. He sits at the window looking out the door for hours waiting for her to come back. By the way, I'll end with a very funny story. This happens every single time. My wife and I will come to the door, you know, coming home at night, let's say, and the 2 dogs are waiting at the door very excited. I have the key. I open the door. They go right by me to her. For all intents and purposes, I am a pillar, a marble pillar. It's it's a humbling moment every time I enter the house with my wife. That's fine. I I live with these things. You got to know when to laugh in life. Really, you have to know when to be hurt. And when not to be hurt. I should do— I should talk about that once. You see, you determine whether you're hurt. I decided not to be hurt by the coach or that referee. I thought it was hilarious when the referee said, what are you, some sort of schmuck? It cracked me up inside. That— it's a healthier way to live. Anyway, do please check out Think a Second Time. This I don't talk about this book much, but this is really— it's— these 44 subjects I cover are really important. And it is a good introduction to the way I think about a lot of matters. Okay, everybody, it is a joy to be with you, and I will see you next week. I'm Dennis Prager. This is Otto. Bye.

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