Me Isn’t Important

Hey everybody, it's Dennis and Julie. As you would imagine, I'm Dennis and this is Julie. Let's get the camera on Julie because I think more people rather see Julie than me anyway, and I'm not being humble, I'm just being real. Dennis Prager, Julie Hartman. 40 years of broadcasting. I never had a co-host, and I certainly respected a lot of my colleagues, but Julie is simply unique. So we have this remarkable thing, Dennis and Julie. So, Julie, isn't it— before anything, you got to admit, weeks go by fast.

So fast. We're on episode 15 now, right, Sean? Is that right? 15.

That really, that is, no, by the way, I don't know if you know, I'm very flattered and touched and thrilled that you know a lot about me and about what I say, but have you heard my theory that life goes by fastest by the week? The week?

No, I have not heard that.

Oh, great. I'm so happy to tell you something that you haven't heard yet.

Very few things.

That's right. It is very few things. My theory— I have a theory on everything, as you well know— my theory is, of all the units of time, the week goes by the fastest. It goes faster than a day. A day doesn't go fast. A day is filled, the hours go by, but they seem real. A month is a month, a year is a year, but the week— so sort of I feel like my life zooms by by the week.

I can relate to that. I just feel like my life zooms by, period.

Oh, it does. Well, don't, don't rub it in, but I agree with you. By the way, do you know this? I don't know if you've heard me say this either. When I was a junior in high school, so we used to do at high school— I wonder if— I'm sure the word is no longer used, but we used to call them compositions. That's not used anymore, correct?

When you say them, when you called them composition.

Yes. So you would write a 2-page thing on some subject and it was called a composition. So now I think an essay would probably be the term.

Yes.

So I wrote an essay my junior year and I actually think I have it. I can't believe I saved it. I hope I did. And it was all handwritten then. It was never typewritten or anything. And the— my theme was, I want to prove George Bernard Shaw wrong. So I had learned that George Bernard Shaw said, it's too bad youth is wasted on the young. And my essay was, I want to prove Shaw wrong, that in my life youth will not have been wasted on me, which is a very intelligent point of Shaw, because when you're young you just, you don't take life all that seriously, you think you'll live forever and so on, but I knew I wasn't going to live forever even as a junior in high school, and I just thought I want to make use of the time, I know it's going to fly by. But anyway, I still return to my point. I think the weak is the real killer.

Well, wait, you have to tell me now because I'm young. What do you think that you did when you were young to make sure that you took advantage of your youth?

Oh, I took life seriously. I didn't just play.

Right.

That's what it was. I played. I still play. But I didn't only play. I wasn't a big fan of parties, for example.

When you say play, what do you mean? I know now the way that you relax. You love a cigar, you love a good book. Has that always been the case? What about when you were younger?

Yeah, no, no, it was very similar. That's true. And music. Music was a— that was my real big play. But I loved everything. I enjoyed life. I did everything except schoolwork. Did you know that I never did homework once in high school?

Oh, you have told me that many times because that's one of the Very, I would say that we don't differ on many things, but I only did schoolwork.

Oh, we're opposites. No, in that way we're opposites.

In that way we are opposites.

I know that.

So that shocks me. I was militant about my schoolwork, obsessive and militant.

I was militant too. Absolutely, I'm not doing any of it.

You said to me the other day, I think it was the day I graduated from college just 3 weeks ago, you said, did I go to my Brooklyn College graduation? I think I went to a movie.

I think so, yes.

I could never ever imagine that.

I don't know.

God bless you, no judgment.

Well, no, no, no, no judgment on those who attend. It just didn't matter. Listen, I'm very grateful. It's another story for another time. Remind me, because how did I end up in public life is a really phenomenal story, and it started thanks to an award Brooklyn College gave me to study abroad for a year, completely paid. And I'm very grateful to Brooklyn College for that award. But anyway, the, the, the original point was about not doing homework. So I'll just tell you one interesting anecdote, which you may also know, but I don't think any of our viewers/listeners do. So it was about, I think it was 8th grade. My parents sat me down And they were very frustrated with me because they believed I had a good mind and I was wasting it by not getting good grades. And I thought the opposite. I have a good mind and I'm not wasting it chasing good grades. Anyway, I was, I was a handful, let's put it that way. So it was in the kitchen, this classic old one, you you know, your family around the kitchen table.

Always happens in the kitchen.

Yeah, right. It was around the kitchen table. And my mother and father sitting, which is very rare that we would have this family conference. Look, Dennis, we only allow you to watch an hour of television a night. And of course there were no social media, so that was it for being amused by an electronic device. You can only watch an hour of TV a day. Or night, and you don't do any homework. So what are you going to do with your time? And I don't know whether it was my suggestion or one of theirs, but the, the subject arose. I think it was mine. I don't know, maybe I'll take a musical instrument. No one in the whole Prager family, back to the time of Abraham, played a musical instrument, could read music. And they said, okay, good idea. And then they said— this was classic, you will love this— they go, which one? I knew so little about music I couldn't name any. Nothing came to mind. So you know what we did? I said, I don't know, let's just look under, under musical instruction in the Yellow Pages. And what is the first instrument? A, accordion.

Oh my gosh.

And that is why I studied accordion. It starts with an A.

Well, you— that, that actually sort of surprises me because you are very intentional and purposeful.

So yeah, but at that time, no, I had—

yeah, at that time I didn't know.

I couldn't spell Beethoven. I, I don't know if I heard of him. I had no love of classical music.

So did you teach yourself?

No, no. I remember my teacher, Peter, Peter Luisetti. An Italian-American guy who was great. I loved the guy. He taught every instrument that humans can play. He was a very talented guy. And I even remember how much the first accordion my parents got me, the only one they got me, cost, $135, which was serious money.

Yeah. Today it would probably be in the thousands.

Oh, thousands, there's no question. Yes. Well, it's hard to buy an accordion today. Nobody plays it. But anyway, that is how I played. I studied my first instrument. I wouldn't do homework. They wouldn't let me watch a lot of TV. And by the way, I fell in love with it. That I could read music and play it was so— it was a high to me. And to my mother's credit, it was a high to her. She would sing along, right? She, she went— she couldn't believe I was playing a popular song.

I wish I knew how to play an instrument. I should take that up as I get older.

It's hard for me to imagine what brings more joy, frankly. I think people should do one or both of two things. They should, in cutting back, when I say I don't care if people watch TV, I care if they watch a lot. If you did a half hour a night learning a foreign language or learning an instrument, in one year, you would be so much happier than you are today.

I remember when I first discovered you, I was listening to one of your podcasts. Well, you, you didn't do a podcast then, but your radio shows are converted into podcasts. And I remember still where I was walking around my neighborhood, and you said, to those of you who say that you don't have enough time to read and you wish you read more, just do 5 minutes a night. Just start with 5 minutes because then at the end of the year you will have read 7 books and completed many hours of reading. And I thought, my God, that is so true. And it's something that I've adopted every single day when I feel bad about, oh, I should have exercised, I should have read a book, I'll do 5 minutes.

Don't start big. Don't start big.

Don't start big. I have one question to ask you just based on something you said a few minutes ago. When you said that you weren't chasing good grades, was your aversion to the accomplishment-oriented mindset of getting good grades, or did you not like the material that was being taught in your school?

I didn't think I would learn more by getting good grades. I would know how to take tests better, and that's what I thought. I, I thought this through even in 8th grade, uh, and, and I saw the kids who got great grades And I have nothing against them, and I didn't have any superior attitude toward them, but I didn't find them all that impressive. They were not unimpressive. They were not different from the kids who weren't doing well. They worked hard. If you work hard for good grades, most people can get good grades. But I didn't think the investment in time was worth it. It's like— forgive me, I'll give you one more. No, no, I really want to hear your reaction. I have another example that came up. So I've tried almost everything in life, truly. There was a time, again, 8th, 9th grade, I even started studying chess games. I would buy books on chess. You could play a game.

It's so funny you say that. 5 days ago, I ordered a chess book on Amazon because I wanted to learn how to play chess. I think it arrives today. That is eerie that you said that.

Very eerie. So what happened? I— you may want to send your book back after hearing this.

No, no, no.

So I, I, I really studied it, and then I said to myself, I'm spending so much time studying chess games, but it doesn't amount to anything. I'll be good at chess, but I won't— I will not have learned about life, right? I wanted to learn about life. That, that was my dream from when I was at all conscious about anything. And I didn't think I'd learn more about life by studying more for tests or studying chess. And I've really learned a lot about life. I, I have lived my high school dreams. That's really my life.

Well, I'll tell you why I ordered a chess book, but before I do, before I forget the point, I Oh, now of course I'm forgetting the point. What was my point?

It's okay, everybody forgets their point. No, no, no, the beauty is this just proves that this is real.

I remember, yes it does. I'm really glad that I asked you that question.

Which question?

The question, was it more for you about, was your aversion to getting good grades, et cetera? Because sometimes when you talk about how it wasn't a priority for you, it makes you sound like a slacker, like you didn't care about learning, but that's a really important distinction. You did care about learning. Oh. And so I'm really, really glad I asked that because it doesn't seem right for you that you wouldn't care about learning.

You're so right, you have no idea. Whenever parents call me up and they say, oh, I feel so much better about my son, he doesn't do any homework either. I say, well, wait a minute, whoa. The issue is not that. The issue is what is he doing when he's not doing homework? I was learning music. I was learning how to— I was teaching myself how to conduct orchestras. I was studying on my own Russian. I was reading books. I was studying religion, right?

Oh, exactly.

Oh, that's very important. If, if, if your kid's playing video games instead of homework, that's a problem. If the kid's just going to parties, that's a problem.

I look back on my high school experience and I was so obsessed with getting good grades, and I really did enjoy learning.

Why?

Because I think that was the environment that I was in, and I'm a very ambitious person, and I wanted to do well. I wanted to make my parents proud. And again, everyone in my school was obsessed with it. So I just consumed a cultural diet that lauded that as a goal. And over time, I found— I remember having this thought in 11th or 12th grade that I'm not learning as much as I should because when I'm reading a textbook, I'm just thinking about how I can prepare for the exam. And what a shame, because as you know, I am someone who loves to learn. And so it was too late. I was— well, I guess I shouldn't say it was too late. I could have changed course. But I thought to myself, well, I worked this hard to get all these damn good grades up to now. I might as well continue it. But I shifted my thinking and I told myself it's going to be more of a priority for me from here on out to really digest the material and genuinely learn something than it is to get a good mark.

That's impressive. So I have a I have a question for you. So you threw in, I wanted to make my parents proud. Yes. So I know it's— there's no scientific response, but what percentage of your desire to do good was that, and what percentage was it pure Julie?

To do good in the world, or do—

to do— to succeed in school and get into a good college?

I've thought about this a great deal. The answer is I don't know. I'm still sorting it out in my head. I would say 50/50. 50. I am a very ambitious person. That, that's just a part.

When did you know that?

Oh, from a very young age. I wanted to be a talk show host from the time that I was 5. Now, I didn't want to be a talk show host because it's a cool thing to be. I— well, I did want to be a talk show host because it's a cool thing to be, meaning that it's a fun job. But I didn't want to be a talk show host because of the glory or the fame or any of that. But my point is, from a very young age, I had goals in mind, and I was hell-bent on achieving them. So to answer your question, I think it was 50% me and it was 50% wanting to make my parents proud. And I'm very lucky, you know my parents, they didn't put pressure on me to get good grades. I live in a household where I'm expected to work really hard and do my best, but a lot of my friends' parents would say to them, you better get A's, you better get into XYZ college. My parents never did that, but it more came from my own desire to make them proud because I I just love them so much, and I thought this is the way that I can pay it back to them, by bringing them some accomplishments. And also, sorry, I know I'm going on, but this is important.

No, no, no, you're not going on. By whom was not— was you making this statement?

No, you're digesting it. Yes. As you know, Dennis, and as many of the listeners know, I have an older sister with very severe autism, and that situation has caused my family, and specifically my parents, unbelievable amounts of pain. And ever since I was little, I felt such an urge to compensate for the tragedy of my sister's life. And I thought to myself, if I can come home and get straight A's and be the best water polo player and the best swimmer and get into Harvard, etc., etc., it will be a distraction for my parents from the pain of Gina.

From what age did you think that way?

Oh my gosh, Very young, 5 years old. I say 5 because that's when I— that's the earliest I can remember.

But separate from that is your own inner drive to be a success, a professional success. So I'll pose my challenging question to you that I ask every young woman I meet.

I know the question. Marriage.

Wow. I didn't know what you would say. Even though I thought I know I've asked you, but I didn't remember. Having said what you just said, so the question— it's hilarious, you heard the answer and now you'll hear the question.

I know you so well, I know exactly the question.

You certainly do. It's why we do this together. So I ask— it's really a riot because I have no compunctions about asking a young woman, the waitress, a woman next to me in the airplane, standing in line for something. So can I ask you something? Everybody says yes. It's a non-issue. So if you could have one— what is it— one guarantee in life, one out of two, and it doesn't mean you cannot have the other, I always make that clear, but only one is guaranteed, a great marriage or a great career, which guarantee would you take? So you said— you said, well, I'm not surprised, but it is surprising given how successful you are that I don't think most people meeting you You went to Harvard. You were a star swimmer. You were star this, star that. You're obviously incredibly, almost uniquely successful for your age right now. And they would have thought you would have said career.

No, I've always had my priorities straight. I'm very proud of that. Although I've always been ambitious from a very young age, I recognize that family is the most important thing. My dad has been saying to me for years, and I'm so grateful to my dad for this, and my mom, they also have their priorities straight. My dad said to me, the most important decision you will ever make in life is who you marry. He actually said that to me recently, and I said, that is such a Dennis Prager line. You haven't said that to me explicitly, but different iterations of it.

That's correct.

But yes, 50% of my drive was trying to make my parents proud, but I could not have gotten to where I got if it were just that. You have to have— it has to be for you too. And so a large part of it was just my own internal ambition, irrespective of my parents.

So the reason for my silence was I was thinking in my own life. So this makes this— I know you don't know this. And this is— I'm debating whether to say it publicly because I— it's a, it's, it's a sensitive subject. But my parents are not here, obviously, and this is not meant in any way to, God forbid, hurt them, but um, my desire to bring them pride in me was not a big factor. And the reason was that they, like very many other people of their generation, and especially in not just Jewish life, ethnic life I think this is more than in, uh, Protestant life, Protestant America. I think ethnics— the amount of love the child got was in direct proportion to how much pride they brought their parents. And I resented that, so I wasn't aiming to bring them pride. I was very happy later in life. I mean, later, even in my 20s, that I did bring them pride. I— it was a good feeling. Look, I, I did call my mother whenever I was on national TV to say, Mom, I'll be on X, Y, or Z show. So there must have been some— something in me that got a kick out of that. So I would not say it was negligible, but it wasn't 50/50. My drive was built in. I thought I had a mission in life. I wrote it in my diary in my junior year in high school to influence people to the good.

I remember that.

Yeah.

You wrote that in the journals.

I got to show you that diary. Oh, wow. Yes, it's actually— if it hasn't been lost. If it's lost, it would be one of the few things that would depress me. That's a very special one, one book. So anyway, I don't even know how we got there, but it's all, it's all important. By the way, one of the reasons— let me say this to those of you listening or watching— that I, that I do this. A lot, a lot of the people, most of the people I assume, who listen to this or watch it have some extensive background with me, and this is really an opportunity to know me more intimately. Yes, because of the nature of our interaction and your questions and so on.

You never talk about any of this on your show.

Well, I wouldn't. It would be— I would feel it's not appropriate, right? Yeah, but he— but here it is. So anyway, we On a purely nonsensical note for just a moment, guys, are you ready? This is— we're going to play a sort of game here. I don't know how it arose right before the show. I'm a big hockey fan and I was thinking, I suspect Julie is not a big hockey fan.

And I suspected correctly.

So I said, Julie, how many hockey teams can you name? And then I looked to Sean and Rick in the engineering room and said, I want you guys to write down how many hockey teams Julie can name.

And quickly, I want you guys to do this mentally at home.

Oh, that's a great idea.

How many I can name.

So Sean wrote 7. Rick wrote 10. In my brain, I had 3. We were all wrong. It was 1.

It's mortifying. I'm sorry, Dad. LA Kings is the only one I could name.

I even then said to you, you never heard of the New York Rangers?

No.

And you thought it was the Detroit Red Wings. Who the hell are they?

What the heck is this? This is so a world that I am not in.

So that was clear. So, but you said you could name— wait, so here's the next bet. Ready, Rick and Sean? How many NBA teams can Julie name?

Oh, no.

All right. Rick says 5. Sean says you guys have really lowered your—

Yeah, thanks a lot, guys.

I bet you could name— I'm with Sean on 3. Okay, go ahead.

I'm better with basketball than hockey. I mean, my dad watches basketball.

All right.

Okay. Lakers.

Well, you got to give the city.

L.A. Lakers, L.A. Clippers, Golden State Warriors. So San Francisco Warriors.

Golden State.

That's the team. Golden State. Oh, no. Oh, oh, oh. The Boston Celtics, Miami Heat.

All right. So Rick has won already. Miami Heat. How the hell did you hear of the Miami Heat?

LeBron James is on the Miami Heat.

He was.

Okay, I'm trying to think of states. Oh God, I'm just thinking Massachusetts, LA. God, I'm sorry, I think that's— I think I'm tapped out.

So if I'll name a team, I know you'll be honest. Okay, just randomly.

Yes.

Detroit Pistons.

No.

Um, Omaha Zebras.

That's not a team. I'm not that stupid.

Oh, I thought I'd get her. Damn it, damn it, damn it.

It was Boston Celtics. Celtics and the Warriors a few days ago that competed.

Oh God, that's right, they are. I'm sorry, and they truly hate each other.

I'm sorry to my dad, Kirk Hartman. I'm very, very sorry. We watched the NBA together and I can't name—

No, I'm sure there are others. But anyway, that's fun.

Well, I wanted to ask you—

Yeah.

Oh, that's trying to think of a counter question.

It would be. Yes.

How many of the Kardashians can you name?

Uh, Kim, Kourtney.

Good job.

That's it. There are more?

Yes.

Male or female?

Both. There's Khloe, there's Kendall, Kylie, Kris, Rob, Caitlyn.

How do you know all of them?

Okay, Dennis, you're learning something about me, and I'm ashamed to say it.

Okay, good.

I watch the Kardashians. It is my—

that is so interesting.

Sorry, no, no, you don't have to be.

No, no, I actually— oh no, I think actually I'm happy to hear that because it renders you normal. I, I, uh, it's my— is it a weekly? Is it a weekly or a daily?

Well, they just started this new show on Hulu, and that is once a week, and it used to be once a week. So yeah, when they're in season, it's once a week. So in season, I'm speaking like they're a team.

What is It's— what is the word? Not real life. What is it?

Reality TV.

Reality TV. Is that what it is?

Yes, it's reality TV.

And is it real?

Well, how the hell would I know? I mean, I don't think so. I think a lot of it is contrived. I think that what they do beforehand, they have these production meetings, I would suspect, and they go, hey, okay, what are some things going on in your life maybe we could have a disagreement about this business deal that you just entered into. In other words, I think they pick out real things and then try to make stories about them or blow disagreements out of proportion.

So is all of that rehearsed?

I don't know if it's rehearsed, but I think it's discussed and negotiated before.

But it obviously is riveting.

It is riveting. I've thought a lot about why I go there and watch it because I love reading the Bible. I love reading Milton Friedman and Dennis Prager and all of these highly intellectual books, and then at night occasionally I watch the Kardashians. It's a way for me to turn my brain off. It's a way for me to look into another world. I mean, the level of wealth and influence they have is crazy, and it fascinates me, Dennis. How the heck did they get so famous?

I was gonna ask you that.

How did they get so famous? Well, Kim Kardashian a few years ago gave this interview, I believe on NBC, and the interviewer was being a little bit irreverent and said, Kim, how have you gotten so famous with no talent, or without having a specific talent? You're not an athlete, you're not an intellectual, et cetera. And she looked right at him and she said, Well, I think it must take some kind of talent to get to the level of fame that I've gotten and wealth that I've gotten. She didn't say that explicitly, but that was the message. And that's not a stupid point. So yes, I watch the Kardashians.

They are the people about whom I think the phrase originated, famous for being famous.

Yes.

Correct?

Correct. You know more than you think you do, Dennis, about Pop Culture and the Kardashians.

No, no, I know very little about— So you know how I knew Kim and Khloe?

Oh, you said Khloe. You said Kourtney before.

Oh, oh no, you said— No, no, you said Khloe. I didn't know Khloe. I, I, I— What did I say? Kourtney.

You said Kim and Kourtney.

So the two that I knew is because every day I review the Daily Mail, even though they've crapped on me.

It doesn't matter. They're quite mean to you, but you still read it.

I don't care. But they have so many interesting stories both in the news and, and there's a section called U.S. Showbiz. So I try to keep up a little bit so I'll know something about actors, actresses, you know, singers, models, whatever is on U.S. Showbiz. So those two crop up a lot.

Yes, they do.

They're models, right? Or one is a model.

One is a model. Kendall's the model. The rest of them are just What is Kendall's last name? Jenner.

Oh, Kendall Jenner is a model. That's correct.

Kris married Bruce, then Bruce Jenner, now Caitlyn Jenner, and they had two kids.

Wait, so Kendall is whose child?

Bruce Jenner. Or excuse me, Caitlyn Jenner.

Right, right, I understand. Once Bruce, now Caitlyn. I get it. Yes. But so how is she related to the Kardashians?

So there's Kris Jenner, the mother, the matriarch, She had 4 children— Kourtney, Kim, Khloe, and Rob— with Robert Kardashian, who was friends with O.J. Simpson and defended him in that trial. And then she divorced him, got remarried to Bruce Jenner. They had Kendall and Kylie.

Is Robert still with us?

No, he died of, uh, did he know how famous his kids were?

No. Oh, it would have blown his mind.

It would have. I mean, they are—

because in his time, I assume he was the most famous.

Definitely.

This is an Armenian name, right?

Yes, they're Armenian. He had no idea.

Is there any family as famous as them?

I struggle to think of one. Even American presidents and their families, I don't think, are as globally well known as the Kardashians.

What'd you say, Sean? The Obamas.

Maybe the Obamas.

I was president of the United States, right?

So though I don't I'm not quite sure about that.

That's right.

I think globally the Kardashians are even—

even in America, more people could name Kardashian names than the vice president. No, no, no. Than— than Obama's daughters' names.

Yes. Malia and Sasha.

That— I didn't even know that.

Yes.

What was the first one?

Malia and Sasha.

Sasha, I remember, for whatever reason.

Right.

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We should do this every podcast. We should do some— what did you call it before the show? Stumping each other.

Oh, that is a riot. We should try to stump each other. I thought you were going to try to stump me with name pop music bands.

Well, that's my next question. Can you name 5 female celebrities?

Celebrities? You mean including actresses?

Yes.

Okay. Jane Fonda.

Can you name anyone under—

Anyone under 90? Okay. Or under 80? Okay. All right. Cut with the clock. It's driving me crazy, Sean. It's like a Chinese water torture. Or is that— is that racist now to say that? Chinese water torture? Anyway.

How dare you?

Correct. So wait, now, of course I can. This is absurd. You got me.

Sounds like you can. I get it. I get it. When I was listening—

Oh, wait a minute. The famous— oh God, the famous singer. Oh my God. Geez.

Oh, Dennis.

It's pathetic. It is.

It's okay. You know a lot about a lot.

No, no, I feel silly. I'm actually embarrassed, to be honest.

You know what? Yeah, I get it. When you were just asking me about the NBA teams, I can promise you—

oh yes, that's right—

I'm gonna come up with 5 more.

Isn't there a woman Taylor?

Yes.

What's her first name?

Her first name is Taylor, last name is—

oh, her first name is Taylor.

When someone, when someone runs fast, Dennis, they are—

they are a track star.

They are Swift.

Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift. Very, very—

can you name one other? Yes.

Uh, um, Hill?

Hill?

No. Hell, why is that funny? Sean is cracking up.

Are you trying to refer to Hillary Clinton?

No, the one— she's the, like, the— she's beautiful. Oh yes.

Is it Hilaria Baldwin?

No, that— no, the, the one— she's, she's married to another famous folks, you know, I don't know if folk is the right term, but oh man.

By the way, you guys, I have to say, and someone wrote in to my website julie-hartman.com and asked what Dennis is like in real life, and one of the things that I have to say is that you are very bad with names.

That's right, thank you.

So this is putting you at a disadvantage.

That's right.

You can probably picture them in your head.

I will say though, you guys are laughing at me about Hill, and I am going to get you the name afterward, after the show. By the way, on that question, so why did they— why did you memorize— you told me you memorized their question about—

oh yes, yes.

So what was it?

The question was— okay, this was the email. It said, hello Dennis and Julie, I very much enjoy your podcast. Thank you. The woman was named Jen. Hello, Jen. She said, Julie, what is Dennis like in real life? Dennis, what is Julie like in real life? What surprised you about the other as you got to know each other, if anything?

I'll answer first.

Sure.

Faith Hill. I was right.

Thank you. Faith Hill.

You don't know Faith Hill?

Who's Faith Hill?

Oh, because you see, you— Tim McGraw. Right, married Tim McGraw is also a great— correct. He's big in— yes. How do you like it? Well, they're country folk music, correct? Is that right, Sean? You don't know country folk music because you are a left coast— oh, millennials don't know. I actually like that music. Okay, so I want to say about you— so this is it, and I know you're going to say this about me, so I— it doesn't matter because that's not all you'll say. I don't know what else you'll say. Dear listener/viewer, we are what you hear and see.

Exactly.

There is no other one of us in either case. If there were no mic here, this is what we would be doing. So, but it's an interesting second part. What surprised you?

Yes.

So I have a very touching answer for you. You're the— how good your heart is.

Oh, thank you.

It was obvious how bright you were from the beginning. That, that's— that was clear. And that— so I want to say something about that because this is about— it's really about me, ironically, but it's worth saying. So I don't give a damn about brains as a general rule. That people way, way overrate intelligence. There are so many stupid intelligent people Common sense is infinitely more valuable. Wisdom is infinitely more valuable. Also, I've learned— you'll find this interesting— I have learned from doing talk radio so many years, 40 in a month, do you know how rarely I have thought of a caller, even if they made foolish points? Very rarely in all of these years that I think that person is stupid. They may have stupid opinions and not think clearly. Virtually everyone has enough brain matter to get through life. There are very few people, unless, you know, biology played a trick on them, that are truly stupid in the sense that they, they don't have brain matter that, that can function through life. The biggest problem with people is their psychological problems that screw up their brain, their ideological problems that screw up their brain. I mean, if you say men get pregnant, it's not because you don't have brain matter, it's because your brain has been screwed up by higher education and the New York Times. So that's a separate issue. So anyway, that's why when parents tell me, you know, oh my grandson or my son is so brilliant, like, I don't give a damn. It doesn't—

you really don't?

And I didn't want— I didn't care if my kids were brilliant. It made no difference to me. I only wanted them to be good. So nevertheless, our original interaction was on the level of intellect.

Yes.

And, and you, your understanding of the issues, uh, and, uh, and intelligence at such a young age blew my mind. I, I admit that. And then I realized over time that you're at least as good as you are smart. So that, that was a, which is everything to me. And, and, uh, I, I said this to you off the air recently. But that, that was the— if there was a surprise, I think that, that, that would be the only one really. Also that you have— but this is not— this is— I mean, I know the pain that your family has suffered because of your, your autistic sister. Now I have an autistic stepson, but you know him well. I mean, they're not in the same league. I mean, they're not my— he lives with us. He cannot live on his own, but he's the easiest human being in the world to live with, and he's so fun. He's total fun. That's exactly—

I adore him.

Right. But that's not the case with your sister. I mean, this is a— this is a much less functioning person.

Yes.

Who has violent outbursts and So I didn't know, I didn't know the pain you have suffered and I didn't know your heart. That's a lot.

So it is a lot. And I adore my sister too. I want to make it clear that that's not what I was saying when I said I adore Brandon. You said that it's different with your sister. You never know when you speak. I've seen it happen to you, Dennis, where you say something and people will misinterpret the conversation and pull out a soundbite. So I felt the need to clarify that.

You are so write about that.

It's so hard that we have to do that.

It's almost impossible.

It's so obvious. You knew, you knew exactly what I was saying.

Yes, we—

I'm sure everyone listening did, but you have to be careful and clarify because the left will try to ruin you. Remember when they said something like you wanted to eat off of the floor?

I lick forks. Yes, they made that up. All I said in, in a fireside chat was during COVID I said, you know, I don't walk around scared with regard to health, and I don't think germs are a curse or something. I'm just paraphrasing. I don't remember the words. Said, if a fork in the restaurant falls on the floor, I pick it up and I wipe it off. And I— but the Daily Mail, one of the largest sites on earth, has them say Dennis Prager licks forks from the floor. They added licks.

I appreciate your ability to laugh at it. What else can you do?

Well, what else can you do?

Exactly.

Anyway, if I weren't making an impact, there would be nothing about me in forks in the Daily Mail.

That's right.

I'm well aware of that.

That's right. It shows that they're paying attention to you enough.

Exactly.

Right. Well, it's a bit of a different situation with me because when you met me, you weren't really getting to know me. I was just unknown to you. Whereas when I met you, obviously I didn't know you personally, but I read 3 or 4 of your books and I've watched you a lot on the radio and on TV, so I felt like I knew you. And it wasn't shocking to me when it was confirmed that you are just as intelligent and wise and magnanimous in real life, if you will, as you are in the public eye. The thing that was a bit surprising to me is what a full and nonpolitical life you have. I remember last summer when, in the first few weeks, when I would go to your house after we— I came here and helped you with your— well, helped you is a strong word. Sat there and watched with the radio show. I helped you by—

by watching—

handing a MyPillow ad read to you. Big help.

That was.

But I would go home and read your mail, and we would have great conversations, and you really showed me that other side of your life, how much you love music, how much you love cigars, your obsession with pens. And then you introduced me to your family and many of your friends. I think I've mentioned on this podcast how much I enjoy going to the Shabbat dinners that you have so graciously invited me to. And I just sort of had this impression with people who are in the public eye and in the political realm that that's just their whole life. But you have such a remarkable ability to, in some ways, shut it off. And you have other interests and other hobbies and just a full life outside of it. And that's been very inspiring to me because throughout my life, I haven't really had a lot of balance. And you have taught me to have that balance, which which, by the way, goes back to what we were talking about earlier when I said that I ordered a chess book. I want to learn more games and just sort of develop hobbies because I spend so much of my time reading all day trying to understand life, and unlike you, I can't shut it off at the end of the night. You have a great ability, and again, I've taken note of this and I admire it, to sleep soundly and know you did your day's work, you learned what you needed to learn, and it's time to rest. I can't do that. I will lie awake at night and ruminate and go over things.

Well, all right, so you're cursed in a sense because you're a female.

Yes.

And I'm talking about the menstrual curse as it was.

Though that is a curse.

You have the curse. I'm not— you know how I learned this? I think you know, but I'll tell you. I'll tell everybody. This was one of the revelatory moments of my life when I learned that some university did an extremely intelligent study. Most studies are not impressive to me. What they did was they took college students, they took men and took women, one at a time obviously. So they would put you— let's say you're a male— they put you in a room alone for, I don't know, 3, 4 hours. Nothing, no screen, no books. You just sat there and Thought. It's all you could do was think. That it obviously to women. Then they asked the males, they asked the females, what did you think about? Have you heard me talk about this?

Yes.

Okay. So the men said, to be honest, sex and sports. And I thought, that sounds perfectly legit. I was curious to know what the women would answer. I had no idea. I knew one thing, it wasn't sex and sports.

They replay conversations.

They reviewed.

Reviewed.

They reviewed conversations. That was a total revelation to me.

Oh, it is so true. That's what I do all day. I look—

We never do that.

So are you not thinking about things that you said in this podcast 5 minutes ago or 10 minutes ago?

Oh, so afterwards, in other words, I will think one thing after my radio show. I mean, it's 3 hours, so Did I— do I regret saying anything? Could I have said something better? It's a professional question, right?

Well, that's what I do too.

That's fair. Everybody should do that. But I do not review. It's over unless there was a ramification. It's over. And that's true in personal life. When women— it's notorious that women A wife will say to her husband, honey, you never listen. And the guy's thinking, that's not true. Of course it's not true. So in my speeches on men and women, I have a great line. I go, ladies, women, wives, I promise you, your husband listens. He just doesn't remember what you heard.

You have great lines about marriage and men and women. It's so sad because I'm sure that there are people on the left who listen to them and they think that they're ridiculous.

They hate them because they're real.

They're real.

Real life bugs the left.

I have to tell our listeners one of the ones that Dennis said to me last summer when I was working with him, and I went home and told it to my dad. I know you know this story. As many of you may know, I just graduated from college 3 weeks ago, and I'm very proud of that accomplishment. But I know how stressful it can be going to college with all of its uncertainties. The King's College will set you up for success in the real world. Founded in 1938, The King's College is a Christian liberal arts college in New York's Financial District, offering classes in person and online. Uniquely and purposely located in New York City, you will gain more than just an academic education. Students also gain a life education. Kings doesn't offer a meal plan. Students live in real apartments, take the train to school and work, and learn how to be aware of their surroundings. In short, they graduate smart and savvy adults ready to thrive in the real world. New York City presents unrivaled opportunities. Kings chooses to engage the world around them and seeks to both influence and learn from the world-class location. 99% of alumni had full-time positions 6 months after graduation, including at the U.S. House of Representatives, the Wall Street Journal, the Alliance Defending Freedom, Morgan Stanley, the cast of Hamilton, Marc Jacobs, and more. Find out how you can attend the King's College in person or online by visiting tkc.edu today. Book an in-person campus tour Monday through Saturday and apply to the King's College for free at tkc.edu. Don't just go to college, go to King's. Start your journey at tkc.edu. You said to me once, wife is Sanskrit for flaw finder, right? I went home, I totally believed you because all the time you're telling me— I was just reading Genesis, your Torah commentary, and there's the verb bara in the first— bara, yeah, bara, forgive me— and it means create. And so my point is, you're constantly telling me about the origins of words. And so I go, oh my gosh, wife is Sanskrit for flaw finder? That's hilarious. And I go home that day and I tell my dad, hey, you know, he goes, how was your day with Dennis? And I go, hey, did you know that wife is Sanskrit for flaw finder? And he just cracks up.

Oh, he did?

And then I realized I am a fool. I totally thought—

You were not a fool. So I want you to know, a tad gullible. Okay, no, no, you're 100% innocent in this instance. You— that your father laughed immediately.

Oh, he said stuff like that all the time.

Well, okay, so that, that is perfect. The— I learned, and it's a debate I have with myself, I can say the most absurd things with a straight face.

You can.

I can.

That's the thing that surprised me about you.

Yes, it's a truly bizarre ability. And I just every so often will do that on the radio, say something truly absurd, thinking the whole time everybody knows this is an absurdity.

No, Dennis, you—

But I'm wrong.

You are wrong.

I learned— I said that first on the radio a long time ago. Oh, you know, by the way, wife, it's Sanskrit for flaw-finder. She who finds flaws.

That's how you said it?

Yes, she who finds flaws in her husband. So you don't know how much the mail I got. Wow, that Sanskrit. I forgot I said it. I would not have remembered I said it if people didn't go Wow.

You've got to be aware of that. That was an adjustment for me.

Yes, that's true.

That's the thing that surprised me. Another thing that surprised me, I said this earlier, is that you are not good with names. And a third thing is how goofy you are. You are so, so goofy. I'll do for the audience one of the things that you do.

Sean, am I goofy? Boy, even Rick's— even Rick nodded.

This is what Dennis does when he's done with an ad read.

Yes.

May I?

Yes.

He goes I'm done.

No, no, I never say I'm done. Actually, let me have that.

You do the honors.

Oh good, it's a real ad. Okay, much louder on the mic.

That is what he does every single day.

I've been doing this for about 15 years, and I, I tell— this is a perfect example of my straight face. And I will say to people who are, who, let's say, are visiting the show, say, that's a service to Sean to let him know the ad is over.

Yes, people believe you.

Everybody believes me. Yes, they're like, oh my God, whereas Sean is dying inside because it's completely obnoxious. It's 100%.

Of course it is. It's such a nuisance. I'm sure you listening to it are like, why the hell did they have to do that? It's hard on my ears.

Here is the amazing thing. My ability to amuse myself is almost infinite. So after 15 years, it still brings me joy.

You know, another thing, just while we're on this subject, by the way, for our listeners, I did come today planning to talk about more substantial things. I wanted to talk about the Torah, but I love this.

I love how spontaneous and fun, if there's anything playful, it is that we have going here. It's, it's human.

Totally, totally. So let me tell you all, when I first went to Dennis' house, I knew from his fireside chats that he has two dogs, Snoopy and Otto. And then I went in his backyard and there were two enormous tortoises waddling around. Yes, he has two tortoises, each about 75 pounds. I didn't know that you were such a pet guy. Why, why tortoises? I get dogs. You guys call them tortugas.

I can't really say I'm a pet guy.

Okay, it's Sue.

I'm a husband.

There you go.

Married to a pet woman. If it were up to Sue, you'd live in a zoo. Yes, we would have a condo at the LA Zoo.

That's the new line. You know, they say to Dennis, we came for you and stay for Sue.

That's my line.

Yes, that is your line. They come— or I think someone said it to you. They rhyme. They said they come for you.

Oh, I thought I invented it. You think? I think you're right. Somebody said it to me.

My new line is, if it were up to Sue, you would live in a zoo.

I think that is true. So here is an interesting theory I have. I have a theory on everything. So my view is more than 2 dogs or more than 2 cats, you are entering the realm of eccentricity.

I agree.

You do?

Totally. That's why I brought it up.

Sue thinks— I don't know, I think with Sue the number starts at 12. No, no, I don't know what— it's an interesting— I'm going to ask her. I don't know what her answer would be on number. Has she had, um, when I met, when I met her, she had 3 dogs, and I, I think, I think it was 3, and the 2 tortoises. When she got the tortoises, they fit in the palm of her hand, and now most people cannot lift them.

They're enormous.

They're enormous, and they weigh at least 75 pounds. But I want you to know, while they— there's no personality to a tortoise. They don't even relate to each other.

They're so cute.

But well, I wouldn't say cute is not the word I would use. They— I— my word is fascinating. I love watching them. Watching them is, is truly to visit the dinosaur era. If you look at their feet, they are the feet of a dinosaur.

I would study your tortoises' feet when I would come see you because it's crazy. They're so— they're like webbed and all of these scales —no, no, it's—

and, and there's something fascinating. They will outlive Sue and me. They, they live well over 100 years. Wow. It is— it's very— I don't even want to— it's not sad. It's not— I was going to say sobering. It's just interesting in some psychological way to look at them. Obviously you want your children to outlive you, to say the least. But your pet, you don't expect to outlive you. But they will.

Well, do you think you'll give them to Reed or Bernadette? Yes, of course.

Yes. Right. Yeah. Wow. I'm not sure, you know, that the— my other sons would— my two sons. Reed is, of course, my stepson, but I see him very much as a son. But back to the point that you were making about the question the person asked about what surprised you. You gave the best answer that I've ever heard about what, what surprised you about Dennis. I think the only thing people don't know, because they really do know me, it's a common thing. People will see me at the airport and they'll say, you know, Dennis, I feel like I know you. And I always have the same response: you do. But I don't know if they know all the other stuff. I mean, I talk about the, the photography and cigars and audio equipment and so on, but to see that in practice, how, how important my, my fun things are to me, and Would it be fair to say— and I don't want to put any words in your mouth— the, the lightness of my life may have surprised you?

Definitely, yes, because all day you talk about very heavy things.

I, I am a rare combination of very, very serious and very, very light.

That's one thing I will also say about myself. I've always had an ability to laugh at myself, laugh at others. But still, you go to bed thinking the heaviness.

I do, but that's more—

I don't know if this is going to make sense, but that's more in my head. When I'm with other people, I like to think that I'm happy and light. It's really only at one time of the day when the bad thoughts creep in, and that's at night.

I've always struggled with that. Which is the worst time it should happen. Yes. You know what I go to bed doing? Looking on my tablet at camera reviews on YouTube. Oh yes, oh, I know.

I see stacks and stacks in his house, you guys, of photography magazines, classical music. He has a room in his house that is just music equipment. That's right. You have these very expensive speakers. It's the one thing that you will splurge on is those speakers.

No, no, on the electronics even more than the speakers. Oh really? Yeah, people don't know that. They should know that. I don't mean about me, but about stereo.

And I remember Dennis took me into that room once and said, I will play any song for you and you've got to hear how it sounds on these speakers. And I remember thinking, how, how great can it sound? I'm sure that they're great speakers, but I had you play a Billy Joel song. As many of you know, I've mentioned several times on air that I love Billy Joel. And let me tell you, the sound quality was better. I quote, than than being front row at a Billy Joel concert.

Which you were.

And I know because I was front row at a Billy Joel concert and the sound quality was better.

You know, it's a little sort of almost troubling to me, believe it or not, that that is true. Because it's like AI. I don't want robots to take over for people. Right. I don't want great audio equipment to take over for live, and I still rather have live, of course. But that's how good— and don't say the speaker because I'm sensitive on this, which is stupid, but I spend far more money on the electronics than I did on the speakers.

Okay. Forgive me. Yeah. I hope I didn't offend you.

You offended the electronics.

I have never heard you say that you are sensitive. With regard to something.

That is hilarious.

By the way, did you notice I said with regard to something? You corrected me.

Oh yes, not regards. Yes.

I have something to correct you on, Dennis. Yeah, this is crazy, you guys, because you are, you are so good at grammar. You say graduated college from, right?

From, you know, I mean, people have college. I, the, the, the reason, I'll tell you the reason that I keep making that error. It sounds wrong to me, right? Graduated from— but if it's right, it's right. It's right. I should say it. I'm not going to argue with that.

Well, it sounds wrong to you because so many people say it.

So let me ask you, does 'with regard to' sound wrong to you as opposed to 'in regards to'? It sounds better.

It does. It sounds right. Yeah.

Because gradually it's not going to be right. Yes. Do you see how many times even in printed stuff on websites, 'it's' has gotten wrong? Oh my gosh. Or 'your' and 'you're.' Yes. So I don't understand about 'it's.' 'I apostrophe s' means 'it is.' Why is that complex?

I don't know. Why is it complex that The police should not be defunded. We live in a crazy world.

You know, the column I'm writing is exactly— so listen, so this is my working title. I still haven't written it, but I wrote it in my brain. That's where most of the work happens, not in the physical writing. So what do men give birth and defund the police have in common?

Crazy, right?

You're basically there. Yes. So you're not living in reality. Well, right, but yes, that's correct. But both represent chaos. You know my whole theory on chaos? Yes. That the left stands for chaos. Yes.

That's what they lead to. Well, you write about that in the Torah commentary.

Yeah, that's where I got it. Do you know that? Writing the commentary on Genesis, and I realized God did not create for 6 days. Most of the time he was making order out of chaos.

Yes. And you talk about how important distinctions are, the distinctions that he establishes just in the first few chapters of Genesis— light and dark.

You know the joy you bring me when you Cite my, my Bible stuff. I feel like I'm showing off, but it's—

oh no, it's seared into my brain.

Oh no, that I got through to you on these important points and you remember them. I'm telling you, you bring me in for so many reasons, just you being you, but in that regard, you bring me great joy.

Well, thank you for saying that. I mean, it goes without saying that you bring me enormous joy. I said to you once, I said, I don't know what I provide you because you You have taught me so much, and all I feel like I've really done is just digest your material, and I found it to be meaningful.

You're carrying on the mission. I am. What, what, what more could I ask for?

Well, I want to ask you, while we're on this subject, I read your— I mean, as I've said ad nauseam, I've read all of your books, but your Torah commentaries—

hopefully not ad nauseam.

To you, it's never ad nauseam, but maybe to the listeners, you're like, "Oh, really, Julie? You've read Dennis's books? Huh?" Sometimes I think my friends think that because I'm constantly talking about it. Anyway, I am particularly impressed with your Bible commentaries because I can tell that it's all you. I mean, all of your books are all you, but to read the Bible and have such original takes on it, and to be able to explain it with such clarity is quite a feat. How have you been able to devise these theories? Did you just read it over and over and really try to figure it out? Was there someone who you—

so this is the huge— we could spend a whole hour on this, and we should, by the way. We should, yes. I've never discussed how my mind works because I, I can't do that on my own show. It sounds so No, you've never even talked to me about it.

Right. That's true.

So please. Well, I'll tell you just Bible-oriented to answer that's your specific question. I fell in love with not the whole— I love the whole Bible, but I fell in love with the Torah, the first 5 books. And whether you're Christian or Jewish, those are the most important books of the Bible. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I certainly don't mean to. They are. And for Christians, Jesus would certainly have said that. He was an observant Jew. Observant. And all the laws are in the Torah, the first 5 books. There were no laws post-Deuteronomy. Everything is there. Love your neighbor as yourself. God created the world. Everything is there in these books. At a certain point in my life, I so had fallen in love with it morally, in terms of wisdom, in every way. And I did believe this is from God. Whether it was God at Sinai or God through a lot of people over time is of no interest to me, but it's from God. Now, this is a big one. You've never heard me say this. That's very significant because once I made the leap of faith that this is from God, I had to explain everything, right? I could not say, well, look, people wrote this, they were creatures of their time, and big deal, we'll just move on. It's a difficult thing, or it seems to, uh, to in some way negate something that was said earlier in the Torah. I don't have that excuse. It has to all make sense. So I was forced to make sense of these 5 books. That's fascinating. It is fascinating.

You make sense of it down to such a granular level. I mean, I remember reading this and going, oh my gosh, I'll tell you one example. Why God is a he. First of all, you write, when you refer to someone as he, it's also sort of genderless, right? It's neuter. And you gave that example of when someone kills a fly, right, and they say, I killed him.

You just think, oh, okay, I just want to say, forgive me, that you remember that.

It's music to my ears. I can understand how that mean a lot to you. I mean, you're like—

it's a very important point.

It is so important. And so on the fly point, which is going to the larger important point, if you say, "I killed her," referring to the fly, the person immediately thinks of the gender. So for that reason, it makes sense that God is a he, because I even do this in academic essays. Believe it or not, it's still accepted when I'm saying man, da da da. I say he when I'm just referring to people generally. But the second point that you provide, I think, is the most compelling. You said, "Boys—" I want to make sure I get this exactly right. "Boys learn rules from men," or, "Boys take direction from men." So it's actually advantageous societally that God is a he. It's not a knock to women because men really look to Or boys really look to men to get their moral direction, and you pointed to the moral chaos we see nowadays as the result of fatherlessness.

Men look to men. Yes. How many men a few years younger than me, for at least 20 years on radio, said, you know, you're a father figure to me? Has anybody ever called a woman host and said, you know, you're a mother figure to me? It's a good point. Both sexes say I'm a father figure to them, right? People need a father figure.

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I had another good line in there. If you don't have a father on Earth—

yes, I was about to say that— then you need to have a Father in Heaven to look up to. Yes, but it amazes me. Look at that one example. How many hours of thinking this through did it take for you to arrive at that conclusion? And it really does I mean, if it sounds stupid to say, really does say legitimate, seem legitimate, but it just, it seems like the exact answer to why God is a he. How did you, how did you get there? Part of this is you must have really been born with just sheer brilliance and just a gift to understand this stuff.

I was. I, I know it sounds cocky. No, it's not. It's just the truth. You're not saying I was born born with a musical ability, which I wasn't, but I'm just saying. So, but there was another thing too. I, I, I, at a very early age— a lot of this stuff is from a very early age— I, aside from wanting to do good and influence people to do good, I wanted to understand life. I, I had this ambition that I would, I would hopefully live a long life and I would understand it at least as well as anybody who ever lived. It's, it's a very large ambition, and one of the reasons I thought I had a chance This is really big, the stuff I've never talked about publicly and almost never privately. And not that I hide it, it just never came up, right? I have no prejudices, so I— there was, there was no dogma I had to meet. I confronted life straight on, head on. I didn't have to prove anything because I am an American, a Jew, a male, a white. Nothing mattered except what is true. Nothing. That's very powerful. It's very powerful.

And that makes so much sense knowing you.

Yeah, well, I— it makes— certainly does make sense to you, and I'm sure it makes sense to your listeners. Okay, well, yeah, yeah, I think you're right. That's fair to say. So, but that's so big, I can't tell. I, I knew it. I have— I, I, I never read anything with an agenda other than is it true and will it— and will it make a good world. Those are the only two criteria I have. That's pretty remarkable.

Very few people have that.

That's right. I learned that. I didn't know that when I was young. But in other words, it's a very clear thing in there. This— it's— am I— am I— same thing, the psychological. I, I was not burdened burdened by problems. I had— everybody has problems, but I wasn't burdened by them in my thought. So many people, they're angry at men because of the way their uncle treated them, and I am not dismissing it, or at women because they had a lousy mother, or— I didn't have any of that. Right.

Well, you didn't have any of that, from what I'm hearing and from what I know about you, and I know you very well. But also, and I know this has been a theme that we've discussed on this podcast, I firmly believe that you develop good character traits via habit. You have to practice them. So yes, naturally you were clearly born without prejudice and you were only looking towards, is this good and will it improve society? But also, I'm sure as you went along in your career, in your life, you had to remind yourself that those things were important. Maybe you didn't. Maybe it was just so ingrained in you to look at the world that way, only for what is good and what will improve society. But my point simply is these things need to be practiced too, by habit.

The person you should really talk to about habit is Oh, well, Alan is crazy habitual and disciplined.

So Alan is, by the way, I just want to tell everyone who Alan is, although I'm sure many of the listeners know. Alan Estrin is Dennis's longtime producer of his radio show, The Dennis Prager Show. He runs PragerU now, and he's your BFF. Do you know what that stands for?

Best Female Friend. Well, I call him my other spouse.

See, by the way, that was That was an example of how he says things with a completely straight face. It isn't best female friend? No, it's best friend forever. Oh, I didn't know that. Oh my gosh, I thought you were just doing one of your hilarious— it's best friend forever.

Oh, that's why I was not— I was confused. Okay. Yes. Well, Alan is my other spouse. Sue knows that. Alan knows that. Yes. Right. And by the way, there's a lot of truth to that. It's not— it's not a It's just not a throwaway line. We're incredibly bonded and we've given each other a tremendous amount in life and thank God continue to do so. But I, I'm telling you, so this is Alan's theory about himself. You'll— I don't know if you know this. This is fascinating. He thinks he's unimpressive and he's— and he said, I've always thought that about myself. He told me this. Right. So he said, I knew if I was going to get anywhere in life, it had to be because of discipline. And to say that he's gotten somewhere in life, he's gotten— he's on incredible— he's incredible success. He was— his idea, PragerU, not mine. Really? Yes, 100%. I always tell people that. I'm adamant about making that clear. You know, they say I'm co-founder, which I've always insisted. No, don't say I'm founder. Say co-founder. But in fact, it was his idea. But he, first of all, he's nuts that he's not inherently impressive, but it doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. What's relevant is he is sort of every man that wants to get ahead in life in the best sense. Work hard, damn it. Discipline yourself, damn it. And he is the living embodiment of it.

He gets up, just so you all know, at 4:30 in the morning, and he starts his day with a cold shower because he believes that it's good for his circulation.

For his immune system.

Oh, for his immune system, excuse me. And then he goes on runs, and he is the most— I've really, I mean, working here has been such a blessing for so many reasons, but I've learned so much from the people in this office. Alan has been at the top of that list. I mean, just seeing how focused and disciplined he is with his work and with finding you really good sources to talk about. His diligence is unparalleled, and that's why PragerU is such a large success. It really is because Alan is manning the ship, and Marissa, of course, is fabulous too.

That's correct, and It's a very interesting thing. I say often to people, I have none of Alan's talents and he has none of my talents. It's not fully true because he's become actually a wonderful speaker. But my only point is, personality-wise, we're opposites. Oh, dead opposites. Dead opposites. Right. He doesn't horse around. I don't think he's horsed around in his life. He's not goofy or any of this stuff. He's not light. But thank God, because it's such a powerful team.

It is a powerful team. That's the point. You are so right that he is the king of practicing good traits through habit.

Right. I am not the king of that, by the way. I'm not even crown prince.

I think that you are more than you give yourself credit for.

Oh, no.

I have good character habits. Well, that's actually what I'm talking about. Alan has good habits. Right. He also has good character habits. Oh, totally. He is good everything. But I think the original point that I was trying to make is with regard— see, I do pay attention— with regard to character. Yes, you were born with good character. I was born with good character. Some people aren't. But also, just as much as I was born a kind person, I have had to practice kindness. Of course, there are times when my mom is annoying me and I really want to snap at her, but I think to myself, I strive to be a kind person. And even though naturally in many ways I am, it's also something that I have to practice every day through habit.

So that's the point that I'm trying to make. Well, I underwent, I think, more than you very severe moral education because of my religious Jewish education through the age of 19. If you didn't go through it, it's irrelevant if you're a Jew, Christian, atheist. If you didn't go through it, it's hard to imagine how intense that part is. The moral element of traditional Jewish education is so drummed into you. I mean, the songs we sang, I mean, there we actually would sing the song Love Your Neighbor as Yourself. That would be a typical class song that we would sing in Hebrew. And just the drumming in, and you know, who the aphorisms— whoever humiliates his neighbor in public, it's as if he's murdered him. I mean, oh yes, whoever cites a source brings redemption to the world. So that so was drummed into me. That's an example of something I would not have known instinctively. I am adamant about quoting the source of any idea that I don't believe is mine. Adamant. There is a point I make in the Genesis book of— you may recall when God says it's not good for man to be alone, and I say a Protestant pastor made the point that, wait, didn't Adam have God? Yes. And yet even God is not enough. God wants us to have people.

God's a humble dude. He knows that a relationship with him is not enough. You need other people.

Necessary but not sufficient. Yes. Yes. And I didn't even know who made the point, but I knew I didn't. Right. So in the book I said, I wish I knew the name, but it isn't my point. Yes. That was drummed into me in moral education.

And by the way, on a separate note, I know that you do that. You can just tell that you do that in your books. And I again know you personally and I know that you care very much to cite your sources. But what amazes me is that a lot of the times when you're arguing something, you're not citing a source, and that means that it's your own original thought. [Speaker:DENNIS_PRAGER] That's right. [Speaker:JESSICA] And we talked about this a few episodes ago. I sometimes— and I'm young, and I do have original thoughts, but, you know, I'm very hard on myself. And sometimes I think to myself, I wish I had more of them. Am I, am I taking a shortcut by reading Dennis's books?

No, what it is gonna do is just gonna give you the springboard.

Right, exactly. It gives you the foundation and the springboard.

So you, you've sort of saved time.

So who was that person? Who was the Dennis for, for Dennis?

There is no Dennis for Dennis. That's the interesting thing.

Right. That was my suspicion.

Yeah. Uh, I, I don't know at what age I realized that. I, and I just, I just don't know, but it was probably pretty early because people, people wanted to hear what I had to say from a very early age. So if I was just repeating what others said, I don't think they'd be as interested.

Who was your greatest role model growing up?

So role model is not the same as what you just asked. Okay, so I, I have to say my father. I mean, it's— I think for boys, negative or positive, it's their father. Not always. It could be an uncle, it could be— could be a sports figure, it could be an actor. But my father was a strong presence. He was not a particularly loving presence when I was a child, and people are always surprised to hear that, especially my listeners, because I would have my dad on every July 18th, his birthday, and they loved the conversation. And then people would call, you're very lucky you have such this loving bond with your dad. I'm not going to say, well, it's— I love him now, of course, and he— I know he loves me, but it wasn't always that way, certainly not when I was a child. But it, it doesn't matter. It's not the same thing Did you love your father and was he a strong role model are not identical questions. You can love a parent, just, you know, they're very loving and you, you feel it. It is more important for a boy to have a role model and a father than to have a loving father.

Well, that's in accordance with the point you made a few minutes ago when we were talking about my desire in high school to make my parents proud. And you, you made that point that the amount of love that a parent shows their child will determine how much their child wants to bring them pride and accomplishments. And so perhaps because your parents were not overwhelmed in their demonstration of love—

that's a good—

that's right, that is exactly because my parents were very loving and to this day are overwhelming in the love that they show me and my sisters.

I would be curious. Look, I really wanted to give my boys more love than my father gave me, and I know I did. I mean, it wasn't exactly a challenge. If I said to them once a year, I love you, it was more than I got. And that's not a complaint at all. I have zero complaints. But I was most concerned with their character. Parents are preoccupied with grades, achievements, intelligence, and also, and this is a very normal and very bad mistake. They're preoccupied with having their kids love them. And you can't do anything well in life except one thing. And I'll say that it's a really important original point, if you will, and what that one thing is. But you can't do anything well if your primary aim is to be loved. You can't be a good politician. You can't be a good parent. You can't be a good teacher. You can't be a good talk show host. The only arena in life you should aim to be loved is with your friends and your spouse. Then there, people should really work hard at being loved. That's a biggie, as you would say. Yeah, that's a biggie, as I would say. It's a great subject for us. The notion that people hate of earning love. My favorite verb in English is earn, and I believe if you So when people date, aren't they working to earn the love of the person if they're interested in them? You know, I'll dress a certain way, I'll act a certain way. And then this is the tragedy of so many marriages. They stop working to earn their spouse's love. That's why I always say you should date in marriage like you date in before marriage. That, I would say, it's a whole nother subject. By the way, I want to get to your Bible questions, but we won't get to them today. But I really do obviously love to know what you react to. But the, the killer of marriage, I think, more than any other single thing, is you take your spouse for granted. And that's, by the way, this will blow— this blows people's minds. I don't, I don't say it often. That is why I am pro-allowing divorce. Divorce means you're fired. You're fired as my spouse. If you can't be fired from any job, you are definitely going in most, most people will take the job for granted and not appreciate it.

I never understood the primarily religious belief that divorce is a no-no, right?

Well, you grew up Catholic. Yes, I did. Yes. So that, that's— I won't say uniquely, but it is primarily Catholic, of course.

You should not get married if you think you're going to be divorced. Divorce is something that— no, divorce is a horror.

It's a horrible thing, but it's better than a bad marriage.

Can you imagine being trapped in a marriage for decades and decades? No. Why? Because you don't want to.

Well, also, and people know how much I defend Catholics, so I, I feel free to say where I differ. Yes. I, I don't believe God wants us to be— why does God want good people to be miserable? Right. By the way, often— not always by any means— but often it's two good people. It's not fair. You, you made the wrong choice at 23, and until 93, for 70 years, you should live in misery. Is that— is that God's will? Doesn't it— doesn't God want us to be as one flesh? But what if you can't be as one flesh? You're, you're— the last 23 years, you're You're in separate beds, right? Separate rooms, right? Uh, it's, it's very unfortunate that, that, that I think that that idea developed. And Protestants developed till death do us part. So Protestants have their own, uh, it's not exactly like Catholicism, but it's pretty close to it in many Protestant circles. I had a guy on, on, on my radio show He was in sales at my home station in LA. He was divorced. He's in an evangelical church. He was ostracized by the fellow congregants. He had to go to another church.

So when you say that the Protestants developed— what was it? Till death do us part. Forgive me if this sounds ignorant, but I'm starting my religious journey. Is that not stipulated in the Bible? It was something that was developed afterwards via interpretation?

To the extent that it is, it's a New Testament idea. Okay. But it is certainly not in the Old Testament. And by the way, Jesus said that about the, you know, the Old Testament, or you've heard about divorce, but I don't remember his words, but, or the word attributed to him, but it was an area— it was one of— it's one of the few direct areas of descent from the Old Testament. The— it is clear as a bell in the Old Testament, God allows you to divorce. He's not happy if you do. People cite to me a line from the prophets, God hates divorce. Listen, God hates war, but he certainly allows for it when it's morally necessary. So there's a very strong religious moral case to be made for divorce. I am at— you know how much I push marriage. Poor you, you're an example all the time, right? And but I am also very pro-divorce when necessary, right? By the way, and I don't only— I don't always think it's necessary. For example, and here's the irony, a lot of people think, well, of course, if one, if one of the spouses strays, you know, has an extramarital affair, then okay, then of course divorce. I don't believe that for a moment.

We talked about that at Shabbat dinner two weeks ago.

People call my show And I'm adamant, please don't automatically divorce because your husband or your wife had an extramarital affair. If they're sincerely penitent, uh, among other things, you have no idea how— first of all, it's just another subject— how much I've learned from callers. But, uh, the number of people who have told me their marriage got better after they worked through an extramarital affair because the— it's sort of the, the boil was lanced, right? All the pus came out, and now they could work on healing that skin. Yes.

You know what I admire about you, Dennis? I mean, among many, many things, your views do not fit neatly into any category. I, I so appreciate this about you because people probably think about you, in fact, I know they do, because people at my school have said this to me before, "Oh, well, you know, he's pro-America, pro-Judeo-Christian values, pro-religion, then that means he must believe X, Y, or Z." And look at you, you're going against what some truths that many religious people hold. And I admire that because A, it shows that you're not willing to compromise your principles. And second of all, you said this to me once. You said, I seek— I try to be one among individuals, not one among communities. I'm not really a part of a community.

I focus on the individual. My biggest supporters are individuals rather than groups, even though there are groups that might be more than other groups. Yes, that's correct. And that goes back to my earlier point. I have no prejudices. I said I don't. I just seek truth and good and let the chips fall where they may. So I am amazed. I guess we have to end, but I won't.

Can't we just go on for another 3 hours?

That's the beauty that we want to. I am regularly stunned at how much success I've had because I didn't compromise on what I believed in order to placate a community or an employer or whatever. I can't believe it. It's one of the many reasons I'm so lucky. I truly march to the beat of another drummer. Yes. Of your own drummer. Of my own drummer. But it's not me. It's my own drummer, but it's not me. I don't march to the beat of me, but through my own drummer. That's important. Yes. Me. Me isn't important.

I'm the same way.

I know that. That's why we're doing this podcast. That's right. That's why it's Dennis and Julie.

Boy, it's a joy. Boy, it's a joy. We're rhyming today. Sue and Zoo. Boy, it's a joy. There are so many more questions I have for you, and I can't wait. Now what I do, I just want to tell everyone, I used to write down my questions pertaining to life, religion, socks, I don't know, any, anything I I've thought about asking you, and now— and I used to call you and ask them. Now what I do is I save them for this.

Oh, that's perfect. Yes, because I love the spontaneity. Named another two baseball teams, guys. The Sox. Oh, oh, the Red Sox. Oh, we didn't do— we did hockey.

I could— I— yeah, the only one I could name is— oh, what's the— what's the LA Dodgers? LA Dodgers, Boston Red Red Sox. Yankees. New York Yankees.

Now that I've said Boston Red Sox and Chicago White Sox, do they resonate at all?

Chicago White Sox? I thought so. I did know Boston Red Sox going to school in Massachusetts. Sean, you guys should see Sean.

Sean is a Cleveland Commander fan. Cleveland Commanders. Guardians. Guardians. I'm sorry, Guardians. Don't start me on that. You know what? It should still be Cleveland Indians.

Wouldn't you rather have me be able to quote this by heart than know two names of American baseball teams?

Let me think about it and I'll tell you next week. Julie, it's great. All right, everybody.

Julie-Hartman.com. Oh, yes. I love hearing from you. That's right. Thank you to Jen for that question. That fueled a great discussion.

Tell your friends about Dennis and Julie, especially young people.