Remembering Charlie Kirk: Conversations with Dennis Prager

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On today's episode of Timeless Wisdom.

And now, ladies and gentlemen, I am delighted to talk to Charlie Kirk.

Dennis, you have taught me so much about life, about the world, about leading a good life, and I'm honored to call you a mentor and a friend. So God bless you for that.

That's coming up on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.

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Welcome to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Hear thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to dennisprager.com.

I actually want to bring to you a reason for optimism about America. I never fool you. I tell you that I'm pessimistic, but that we have to fight. Right? And that's what I do. If only optimists fight, then no good battle will ever be won. It's just, it's so odd to me if people say, well, I'm pessimistic, I'm not going to fight. All I think every time I hear that is I think of the guys who stormed Normandy Beach on D-Day. Were they optimistic that, that they would, that they would live? If they were, they wouldn't have— so many of them wouldn't have been peeing in their pants. Those poor guys on those boats, on the first waves at Omaha Beach, waiting for submachine guns from the Nazis to mow them down. You fight, folks, whether you're pessimistic or optimistic. Anyway, but here's a reason for optimism. Sitting actually with me, he— in the room, he's 22 years old, Charlie Kirk. He's founder and executive director of Turning Point USA. It's a national student movement that promotes conservative values on campuses. How many campuses are you on?

We are now on 1,000 college and high school campuses across So I asked him, uh, right before he went on, I said, so what college did you go to?

And then he went to my favorite college— none.

I went to Prager University too.

Actually, I am going to tell you something. When we have enough courses up there, unless you have to learn a skill like physics or medicine, you know, something like that, It will suffice to— because the most important thing to have is wisdom.

Mm-hmm.

And there is none at colleges.

It's—

they're anti-wisdom places. So when you said you didn't go to college, I thought, wow, that's great. That's just great. So now you're on 1,000 campuses, something you started in high school.

That's correct.

You know, it's a very interesting thing in life, what, what produces certain types of people.

And it's, it's just, it's, it's a nature.

It's hard to explain because, you know, you're, you're a one-in-a-million type.

I'm not complimenting you, it's just a fact. And, you know, thank God you exist. So you've created this. What does it do on campuses?

Yeah, essentially we are doing the, the clipboard and tennis shoes type of work on these campuses. We're starting chapters, growing groups, registering voters that agree with freedom and liberty, finding other like-minded students that are kind of fed up with the culture that has been propagated on these campuses. You wouldn't believe how many young people are looking for an alternative point of view. See, the left has made a big mistake, and that is they have become the academic establishment of which they used to be fighting against. See, the left's rise to power in the '60s and '70s was all about raging against the machine. And now, they've actually become that machine. And so, young people in college today are being indoctrinated, and they're being steered toward a point of view that, quite frankly, runs contrary to the spirit of being young. Conformity, one-size-fits-all, top-down power. And if you look at what it really means to be a college or high school student in America, there's kind of a spirit of rebellion inherent in being young. And we're starting to channel that around the ideas of free markets, limited government. And there's a growing undercurrent amongst our nation's youth to be involved in an activist-type organization so that we can actually start to move the ball forward on college and universities and also across the country.

So the average student, in your opinion, looks at these students who are now making all these demands— hire more administrators to ensure greater diversity and all the other keywords of political correctness. Does the average student think, yeah, that's a wonderful thing?

Not, not so much. And I'll say this, a lot of the protests you see at Missouri and Yale are actually being stirred up by professional protesters and agitators being brought on to these campuses to stir up this controversy. The average student, quite frankly, couldn't care less about how many diversity officers there are, these free speech codes. This is just a narrative that is being painted by a certain very loud contingent of, I would say, more entitled students on campus that are in such prime positions in their life they have nothing better to worry about than what's going to be said next that will offend me. So there's a group of college students that are waiting to be offended next, and they're using these free speech codes and zones as a way to suppress alternative points of view.

All right, I want to talk to you about— you did a video last week when we were in Israel, so we couldn't promote it—

about the student loans. We're going to talk about that.

Charlie Kirk is my guest. Hey everybody, there is actual— there are many reasons for optimism. There are also many reasons for pessimism, but I bring you both. Another reason for optimism is this young man, Charlie Kirk, 22, founder and executive director of Turning Point USA. Is that the name of the website?

That's TPUSA.com.

CPUSA.com. It's up at DennisPrager.com. The signal you just heard with the producer going with his thumb up to the air, that does not mean he's enjoying the show.

It's—

thumbs up means that it's up at the, at the internet. Got it.

Yeah, just want you to understand that.

Charlie Kirk has been doing great work. 1,000 campuses already. There is I have every reason to believe, despite the indoctrination of high school, now elementary school, and certainly college, there is absolute reason to believe what you said earlier is true, that they are open to hearing us. I know it from my own visits to colleges.

I know it because the largest demographic of the 40 million views Prager University has this year is under 35 years of age.

That, that's something. They have been indoctrinated, but as soon as they hear something rational that isn't there, they go, well, that makes sense.

Is that your experience?

Absolutely. And I, I get asked all the time, well, why don't we indoctrinate our young people with conservative views the same way the left has indoctrinated current students with liberal views? And I say, The good thing about the truth is you don't indoctrinate, you enlighten people to it.

That's my man. That's all we want.

And that's all you got to do. You just open the box and you let it be free. And when you actually go through the process of reasoned thinking and challenging the status quo, and which, by the way, Prager University is doing with incredible efficiency and effectiveness, young people are starving for a different point of view. See, what it's like to be a young person on a college campus right now, You go from your soft social science department to your economics department to your humanities, it's all this one-size-fits-all common philosophy. America is bad, capitalism is evil, we need a revolution to overthrow the ruling class, and the only solution to all of this is more government and less freedom for yourself. But when there's a point of view that says free people making free decisions in a free society not only works morally and ethically, but it works Pragmatically, when you talk about constitutional liberty, when you talk about how you can make your own decisions in a free society, that's not just an ideology, that's a philosophy young people can and will buy into. They just have to be exposed to it.

Yep, yep, indeed. Charlie Kirk's video for PragerU, was that your first with us?

That's correct, yes.

Was up last week. We didn't feature it because I was, of course, broadcasting from Israel. But it's called The Game of Loans, and it is a game. It's not even— it's worse than a Ponzi scheme, actually, because they're not even having the next group pay for it. Nobody's paying for it. It's just being paid for by, by the citizen of the United States. And it really encourages more people to vote Democrat. That, I have to say, is depressing about the young people in America, how they have been bought.

Bought.

Vote Democrat. We'll give you free lunch, free breakfast, free tuition, free medical care. Everything is free, just vote Democrat.

That's right. And the best way to create future Democratic voters is to first prop up and to manufacture a crisis. So what's the best way to get a lot of people dependent on government? Make it seem like government is the only solution. So I believe firmly that big government Democrats and some Republicans have manufactured the student loan crisis over the last 30 to 40 years. They've injected trillions of dollars of cheap money into higher education. They have went after— sought after students with predatory practices to try to solicit cheap student loans, make them take out these loans to go study degrees that may or may not have any sort of relevancy in the job market. Once they graduate, then they're completely destitute with choices and options, and the only salvation that they could possibly think of is government forgiveness in the form of, if you vote for me, I will give you free stuff. See, the Democrats, they wake up every single day, and their mission, their objective is, how do I get more people dependent on the federal government? I believe firmly that the way that they have planned and strategized to get more young people dependent on the government is through the student loan crisis. It is the— I think the most dangerous financial issue facing young people today, and Quite frankly, we've never seen anything quite like it in modern economic or modern generational history. It's going to be cataclysmic in almost every single regard.

What is the sum now?

$1.3 trillion in the aggregate, and then per borrower, about $28,000. That's per borrower. That's not even per graduate. We point this out in the Prager University video. So over half of all the student loan debt held in this country is being held by people that never graduated. They got no return on the debt that they incurred.

Right, that is like getting a huge loan on your house and getting no house.

Yeah, getting no house, precisely. And even the ones that might graduate, they have degrees in communications or, you know, Western medieval history. You know, that's—

Well, I can handle the medieval history. It's the communications, the first one I heard, or gender studies, ethnic studies.

Precisely.

Yes. I mean, we want a certain number of people to know our history.

You look at all— you look at really what's going on here. The left has been has been so strategic in the way that they have planned this. Not only do they want more young people to go to college because they can get them dependent on the federal government, that's also how they are instilling their value system in them. Because they know if you can get a young person to walk into a freshman humanities class, more times than not they will walk away with anti-American, anti-capitalistic, anti-freedom viewpoints, and they will be a liberal voter for life.

I was thinking when you were talking about The student loan and how much— of course, what is it, $60,000 now on some campuses a year?

I read what a kid at Yale gets. Do you know that you have to go to a $1,000-a-night Pacific Island, South Pacific Island resort to duplicate what a student gets at Yale?

In terms of swimming pool, sauna, they have, you know, special— what is it, the hammocks that they have outside their dorm? Back in a moment.

This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Now, back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom.

Hello, my friends.

Final segment of this hour here, Ultimate The World Issues Hour is coming up. Charlie Kirk is head of Turning Point USA, TPUSA, or you could just get it through our website at DennisPrager.com. He's already on 1,000 campuses. He's just 22 years of age. The only university he attended, in his words, is Prager University. It's part of the reason he thinks so clearly.

I got a question.

It's a challenge too, as well, to you. 'Cause obviously you give us reason for optimism, given your age and your effectiveness. But I am concerned about an additional aspect of what's happening to America, and that is that how many in your generation list themselves religiously as none? Because even with a commitment to Constitution and reason, this country was not founded on them alone. And there, I don't know how much progress is being made.

And I agree. And I would say this: when most people say they're not religious, they do in fact have a religion. That religion is statism. See, the state in many aspects is taking place of what the church used to be, or the church or the religious institution, whether it be a synagogue or a local community outfit. See, people are looking not for religious officials or institutions for moral clarity or answers. Instead, they're looking for elected officials and leaders. And personally, you know, I'm an evangelical Christian and I attend on a regular basis. But when I see my peers and colleagues try to separate the religious component and the moral component and foundation of their livelihood and of this country, it's very dangerous. And that's how you get the rise of the state. As the country becomes more secular, people will look towards government for more answers, for direction, and for leadership. And when you have that paradigm completely switched, then the state will then target and attack the religious institutions, which is exactly where we are today, unfortunately.

Well, I'm very happy to hear— I did not know that you were religious. I'm very happy to hear that because I think that the libertarian appeal to young people, which I fully understand, and which in many ways I support, is insufficient because it is overwhelmingly secular. So I'm very— you really are a guy. I wish you great, great luck. You can watch him on the Prager University video of last week. Doesn't matter what week, they're all timeless. But it's about the game of loans. You should see it. It's fun as well as informative. Okay, everybody, Ultimate Issues coming up. Charlie, it's great to be with you.

Thank you.

Good luck and great, great success to you. We continue on The Dennis Prager Show.

This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this. Are you enjoying Timeless Wisdom? We'd love to hear from you. Call 877-243-7776 and leave a review, share your thoughts, or just Or even an encouraging word for Dennis. Your voicemail might just make it on the show. That's 877-243-7776. That's 877-243-7776. Thanks for listening and for your support. Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom.

I have Charlie Kirk in the studio. Charlie Kirk is the founder and president of Turning Point USA. Charlie, it is so— we really are so— we so admire each other's work. I feel funny saying it, but it's true. Turning Point is so good, and you have the same feelings to PragerU. And so many of the kids overlap. They are in both Prager Force and your Turning Point USA chapters all over the country. There were 4 girls, I think they were high school girls. You have high school, right?

That's correct.

Yes. Well, like we do. There were 4— I spoke this past 4 days of the weekend. I spoke at a Passover retreat, a few minutes from Poway, ironically. And 4 girls, Orthodox Jewish girls, walk over to me and they go, oh, we love PragerU, we love PragerU, and we're members of Turning Point USA. 4 girls at the retreat.

How cool is that?

No, how cool? Orthodox Jewish girls. Yeah, I got the chills. I'm telling you, you're doing such good work. Charlie Kirk, out of nowhere— I don't mean he out of nowhere, but maybe so— but out of nowhere really created this force. I spoke— when I speak to your group, I speak to 2,500 people, all young people, and it's moving.

And we just hosted you at the University of Georgia. We had a packed house there.

That's right.

And we did some other campus stuff with you recently as well.

Yes. No, it's—

And I just want to say to all your listeners, because you won't say it about yourself or about PragerU, what you personally have done for the movement and how you have built now an organization, PragerU, to advance your intellectual powerhouse is amazing. What you've done for the country is really, really incredible.

Well, coming from you, that's really something, because you've done similarly.

Thank you.

And by the way, you should follow his tweets. I am— I have a mental block against tweeting. I should and I don't, but I will. I keep saying I will. I passed New Year's— you know what it was with me and tweets? You know, people pass New Year's resolutions. I pass new week resolutions. Every week I take a vow I'm gonna start sending tweets. But yours are— you're really, really on target.

Thank you.

What happens to you when you're going to campuses now?

Well, ever since the president's executive order on free speech, which he courageously signed in complete defiance to the academic elites.

I want to encourage—

I want to talk about the courage it took for the president to sign this executive order. For your listeners that don't know, the president signed an executive order that said that any university that does not protect the First Amendment rights of its students could potentially have its federal funding pulled. He did this about a month and a half ago, and I kid you not, Dennis, one of our students that have been trying to get a Turning Point USA chapter started for 2 years, hours after the signing, got an unsolicited email from the university president saying, hey, can we meet about this Turning Point USA thing you've been trying to get started. I kid you not.

That is such an important story.

And so it's changing from a sense—

For that alone, isn't it great that he is president?

Just even for that one—

Yes.

That one thing. And of course, it's just, there's limitless amount of accomplishments that he's put forth and changing the dynamic. So I was at the rally at Green Bay, Wisconsin on Saturday night, and Dennis, it hit me about halfway through the rally. Because you look at these Americans, these patriots that are so focused on everything he's saying, and they look at him as their vessel to take back their government. And it just hit me right there. He is their single instrument to take back their country and their government. That's why they wait out hours ahead of time to go into the rallies. They've been waiting decades for an opportunity to have their singular voice heard. And you notice the president always says, I'm fighting for you. We're doing a great job, us together. It's never the typical, my administration is putting together policy papers. He almost goes back to these rallies as a— back to his board. His board of directors is the citizens of this country.

That's such a great point. My wife made a point early on, and I tell everybody because the past is either true or it didn't exist, and I opposed him during the primaries. I wrote against him. I said I would support him if he won the nomination. I did support him vigorously. The night he won was one of the happiest nights of my life, and he's turned out to be a magnificent president. And the— he has, all my listeners know, What do I say is the most important trait for good to prevail?

Courage.

His signing that statement, taking on this corrosive establishment of the colleges, if you don't allow freedom of speech, you're not getting federal funds.

Well, and then Dennis, I have to tell you, as soon as he announced that, people in both parties were lighting up his phone telling him not to sign it. Republicans, for example, Senator Lamar Alexander from Tennessee, saying don't sign this.

On what grounds?

Saying that, well, this will disrupt colleges, this is not the right way to do it.

Did Mitt Romney oppose it?

Not that I know of, but it wouldn't surprise me. Not that I know of. But he stuck true to his principles. And do you know the second biggest lobby in Washington, D.C. is higher education and colleges? 1,400 lobbyists. And they were in chaos as soon as he announced he was going to sign this.

1,400?

1,400 lobbyists. Wall Street Journal published it a year and a half ago.

What's the biggest?

Pharmaceuticals.

Right.

Yeah, around 1,600 lobbyists. But you think about it—

Yeah, but there's one big difference. Pharmaceuticals are good for people.

They can be good for people.

Well, they are. I mean, Every— most people I know are alive thanks to pharmaceutical companies.

Sure.

Okay, that's just a fact. Nobody is alive thanks to college. All right, yes, there is college research. I take it back. There's science research, which comprises a fraction of what they do compared to gender studies and stuff. Charlie Kirk is my guest. How do people find out about TPUSA.com?

That's right, TPUSA.com.

Do I know or do I know?

He knows.

I do, because you do such great work. How many kids are in your TPUSA now?

Oh boy, we got hundreds of thousands of—

Hundreds of thousands of active members now. Mind-blowing. Back in a moment.

The Dennis Prager Show.

Last month I signed an executive order. Where's Charlie? Where are you, Charlie?

Charlie?

Where's Charlie?

Where is he?

The man, he's like 14 years old.

I can't believe it.

How old, Charlie? This just happened this weekend. This is the president talking about Charlie Kirk at his rally, Green Bay, Wisconsin, this weekend. So the answer to where's Charlie? In Dennis Prager's studio. That is the answer to where's Charlie? We should play that every time he's on, the president going, where's Charlie? That'll be your introduction every time you're on my show. Charlie Kirk is an amazing individual. He's created this force, hundreds of thousands, and I know it because I speak at the rallies and I meet them on campuses. And it's— I was telling Charlie during the break, because, you know, folks, I've written a book on happiness. I do a happiness hour every week.

Mm-hmm.

big theme in my life. So one of the things I've, I've met thousands of, of TPUSA, Turning Point USA kids, high school and college, all over the country, including, as I mentioned earlier, 4 Orthodox Jewish girls at this Jewish retreat that I spoke at for Passover just this past weekend. Those 4 girls come over and they're just delightful girls. And it occurred to me how happy TPUSA kids are. They're just happy kids. They're grateful, they're happy. And I thought, imagine— so I spoke to 2,500 of them. Where was it?

Palm Beach?

Palm Beach, that's correct.

And imagine 2,500 left-wing college students. Is there anybody listening, including people on the left, who could deny for a nanosecond that there was greater joy and happiness in the, in the conservative 2500 than the left-wing 2500.

It's not even close. It's incomparable. And Dennis, from your book, you talk about if you're thankful that you live in America, you're much more likely to be a conservative. What the university teaches is they instruct the lack of gratitude to live in America. That's where they get this anger and this contempt. Why would you want to change something you're thankful for? Why would you want to overthrow something you're thankful for? And that's the conflict going on in America is the left, they're teaching deep-seated lack of gratitude, whatever you want to call it, unthankfulness.

Yeah.

And we conservatives, when you're thankful for something, you want to fight for it. In fact, you'd Lay your life down on the line for something you're thankful for.

Well, you're making grateful people and a grateful country for what you do. So finally, you just told me you're starting a podcast, and anything you do, I'm happy to publicize. Go ahead.

Well, type in The Charlie Kirk Show. Donald Trump Jr. is my first guest. We'll be doing it weekly and talking about all things college campuses, faith, a little bit of sports, but more than anything else, kind of a report from the front lines of the culture war. What I'm seeing, what I'm hearing, and how that intersects with the news of the day.

So you talk sports?

I do. I think sports can be a great kind of metaphor for life and for politics, whatever you want to call it.

So I take it you're into golfing?

No, actually, I'm actually horrible at golfing.

But do you enjoy doing it?

I enjoy watching it. I enjoy excellence. I enjoy watching the best people accomplish—

I do too. It inspires me.

No matter what it is. If it's diving—

Yes, it doesn't matter. That's right.

If it's a cellist.

Well, that's how Alan and I met, was on synchronized diving.

Really?

No. It was just totally absurd.

Tandem biking.

It was a completely absurd joke.

Yeah, yeah.

I feel bad that—

No, but whatever, the pursuit of human excellence is something that we should admire.

Yes, exactly. I totally— yes, that makes us conservative. We don't pursue diversity. We pursue excellence.

That's right.

They're not the same thing.

No, in fact, one would argue they could be at odds with each other.

Well, they are, because they admit we— if Shakespeare is removed from the University of Pennsylvania, his mural is removed from the English department in favor of a Black lesbian poet, it means we consider Black lesbianism, lesbians, more important than excellence in literature.

Sure, or they—

That's their statement. They're not hiding it.

No, they value also some allegedly marginalized group more than something that is excellent, which is Shakespeare. And they're removing it from—

Right. Well, you know what they do? They marginalize excellence.

That's right.

That's a good line.

You should tweet it. I will. And then you have a culture that is focused on mediocrity than on accomplishment, which is all of Europe right now.

Yes, you got it. Charlie, God bless you.

Thank you, Dennis.

God bless you. You are a real major force for good in this country.

Thank you. And thank you for all that you've done for me personally and for the country and our organization.

You're welcome.

It's my honor.

And PragerU as well. Everyone should Support PragerU as well.

Yes, they do, they do, and thank you.

What a job!

In honor of him, he worked so hard. That's about you, Charlie, that the president this past weekend— And for those of you who think that youth is adored our side, just look at this audience tonight. Look at what Charlie has done. Wow, I got the chills. That's great.

This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom.

And now, ladies and gentlemen, I am delighted to talk to Charlie Kirk.

Dennis, you have taught me so much about life. About the world, about leading a good life. And I'm honored to call you a mentor and a friend. So God bless you for that.

I'm honored to be that in your life, if that is so. Thank you. So you spoke last night at the Democ—

at the—

oh God, oh, I will be struck down— at the Republican National Convention. So first of all, let's just tell me the logistics of all of this. Was it prerecorded?

Yes, my speech was taped, and it was there last week. I did it in one take, for all the critics that think that it was a heavily edited experience. I had one run-through.

You and Frank Sinatra.

You know, it was kind of funny. I'm actually, because I knew it was taped, I was able to lean more into the speech, and since— because of that, it actually turned out the first take was probably better than the second or third would have been. Um, and so it was a phenomenal setup. I think you would agree, Dennis, the production value was extraordinary.

It was.

I, I— oh yes, absolutely. It seemed like a convention to the— to a certain extent. That, that's how nice— that's how well done it was. Yeah, go on.

And so the, yeah, the Trump team did a phenomenal job of allowing the speakers to really speak their mind and be able to not really, you know, what's the best word I'm trying to describe is be able to communicate from the heart and not be over-scripted. That's what I'm trying to say, Dennis.

Right.

And that, that was something that meant a lot to me because I was, I was trying to make sure that I didn't have to just fit within kind of a GOP consultant talking point box, right? And they said, Charlie, just speak your mind, you know, go ahead and, and do this. And it was, it was a really amazing opportunity. Incredibly grateful to open up the convention for this president and for this party.

Good.

Well, you deserve it. The amount you have done for this country and therefore for this president has made you the likely person to have that role. You used a phrase— now, was it bodyguard of Western civilization or bodyguard of America?

I don't remember.

Western civilization, that's right.

That's—

yes.

So the LA Times mentioned that. Uh, I don't know if you know that. They cited you as saying that they're not proud of it, uh, but they're not proud of Western civilization. So yeah, it's on the front page. In fact, I say you probably don't know because I live in Los Angeles And so I would know. So here, Trump cast as U.S. bodyguard. But in fact, you said Western. That's why I was confused. The LA Times got it wrong, didn't it?

They got it wrong. And look, I'll stand by that statement, Dennis. And I phrased it in that way because when you hire a bodyguard, you don't really care about his tweets or about his personal history. You want your family and your way of life to be protected. You want things that you are deeply thankful for to be preserved. And so I kind of— I like the imagery of a bodyguard because it's the tough guy, you know, from New York who's willing to get into the streets and willing to throw a punch for what is good. And so I stand by that completely, and it resonated with many people, and the media found that to be objectionable, which I think is perfectly over the mark.

Yes, you're entirely right. Indeed, that's what conservatives are. We're the bodyguards of Western civilization. It's a great phrase. I think it's terrific that you came up with it. The president gave a speech in Warsaw 2 years ago saying that we had to preserve Western civilization, and the New York Times editorialized that that was, that was really a defense of white supremacy.

And, but that shows how racist the left actually is, and this is something I've learned from you, Dennis. Is they're projecting this upon us. There is nothing at all racist about the ideas of E Pluribus Unum, or the American Trinity, as you say so many times. They are imparting something in this which is simply untrue, and that's been their line of attack against me when saying this, is they say, oh, Western civilization is by definition racist. That— it's like you say, Dennis, it takes someone with a doctorate degree from Brown University to believe something that foolish.

That's exactly right. But they don't believe in Western civilization. This is the crisis.

This is the—

it's the first time really in the history of the West that its elite has contempt for Western civilization. So did you meet anybody else, or it's everybody doing a lonely address?

So it was—

I, I'm not exactly sure. I have to say, I was very impressed by the professionalism and the production capacity of the entire team. And again, I recorded it a couple days ago, and I know some speeches are going to be live. Now understand, this entire Republican convention, they only had about 3 and a half weeks' notice. It was only about 3 and a half weeks ago we thought we were going to have this in Jacksonville, Florida. And so they had to put this together at last-minute notice to do this, you know, where they did it in Washington, D.C., with the film crew and all of that. I know there's some other very exciting speakers coming up. Nicholas Sandmann, one of them, which I'm really looking forward to.

Oh, wow.

He successfully sued That's right. Yeah, the Washington Post and CNN. It's kind of funny, Dennis, some of the media, they're going out of their way to attack him. And I thought— I was watching one of the networks this morning and they were attacking Nicholas and they say, oh yeah, he was aggravating an indigenous person. I said, man, have these people not learned their lesson not to attack this young man? I said, he still has his legal team organized. I don't think that's exactly wise to go after someone who has successfully sued the Washington Post and CNN. In the last calendar year. But what I like, Dennis, most out of this convention, which is different than any convention I've seen, it doesn't feel like a traditional political convention. It feels like a cultural movement and statement that is trying to save the West, which is different than just saying we stand for high taxes and low taxes and Republicans are good and Democrats are bad. This seems to be a much bigger monumental picture that is being portrayed. And I'm very pleased to see that because the stakes really are that high.

I'm very pleased to hear that. My whole life I have been saying, Republicans, do you not understand what you are defending and what you are opposing? So what you just said to me is, is somewhat of a relief because I, I, I, I don't know if how many Republicans in politics understand the immensity, the burden that they carry. Hmm. Does that—

They don't.

Yeah, typically, typically they do not. But I have to tell you, Dennis, and if you listen to Senator Tim Scott's speech, and I did some commentary on this, he went out of his way to say the Democrats want to create a cultural revolution. I said, whoa, those are fighting words from a U.S. senator. That is a direct— that's a direct historical reference to Mao Zedong.

That's right.

And then he said they're trying to— they're trying to create a socialist utopia that will destroy America.

I said, Maybe these Republicans are getting it.

That's right. Bless you. That's exactly the hope.

And it was really refreshing. And the response has been overwhelming by the American people that have felt that their way of life has been relentlessly under attack. And I think from Herschel Walker to Tim Klaasik, McCloskeys to Tim Scott and Nikki Haley as well, there was a unified message as we've been given this gift. It's about time we start doing something dramatic to save it. Because the left is trying to deconstruct and disintegrate it in front of us every day.

The, uh, I think that the riots, the Democratic governors' and mayors' reaction to the riots, the defunding of the police policies of Democrats in many big cities, and Joe Biden saying he would shut down the country if that's what scientists told him. Strikes me that they're really shooting themselves in the foot.

You would imagine so. And I, again, the Republicans typically, and I'm just talking about historically, never miss an opportunity to screw something easy up. Last night they stepped up wonderfully to the plate, and I was honored to play a part in that because everything you just said, Dennis, was mentioned at least 2 or 3 times. Vernon Jones, former Democrat from Georgia, said, I was a Black Democrat. Now I'm a Trump-supporting Republican because of the riots and the rule of law. Donald Trump Jr. and 2 other speakers said Joe Biden wants to shut the country down again. And so it's getting out there. And this is a very good opportunity for the American people now to at least vote for decency and reason, because if you give power to these Biden Democrats, it is the most empowered the left has ever been to do everything that you've been warning. our country about for the last couple decades, Dennis.

Charlie, you, you're, uh, you're a great man, and, uh, to, to have that— have me say that at your age is a big deal.

Thank you, Dennis. God bless you, and thank you for all that you've taught me.

Charlie Kirk, Turning Point USA. As he says, they're the, uh, Army, and Prager used the Air Force. Honored to fight the same fight with Charlie and TPUSA. Brand new book coming out, actually. Let's see. Hey, holy crow, I really hit the jackpot! It is coming out today. Charlie Kirk is the author. Charlie Kirk has reached that status of doesn't need an introduction. But in case you didn't know, he's the founder of Turning Point USA, which is truly a miracle. The staggering number of students in colleges around the country who are members of TPUSA—it's sort of sort of like a sister organization to Prager U—and they, the other side doesn't like either of us. Charlie Kirk is the founder. And author of the book, it's out today. Charlie, congratulations, The College Scam.

Thank you, Dennis, and thank you for having me on. I have to say that you played the biggest role that gave me the courage to write this book. As you know, I've listened to every one of your fireside chats. I sometimes can finish your sentences when we hang out together, but you said plainly, you know, many times, do not send your kids to college. And I always believed that, you know, at least 2013, '14, right when I was getting Turning Point started. But as I was thinking about what book really should I write and what needs to be— what argument needs to be made, I thought about my own life. I didn't go to college and made some things happen. And I think some people really are too afraid to go after colleges, and we need to be forthright and blunt in our criticism of it. That's what I do in this book, The College Scam. People can find it at collegescam.com. But Dennis, you played a very big role. in giving me the confidence and the courage to articulate this argument.

You made my day. Thank you, Charlie. It means a lot, actually, coming from you. Do parents—

I mean it.

I know you do. That's why I really appreciate it. So tell me what you think in this regard. Conservative parents are as avid to send their children to college as apolitical and left-leaning Why is that? Do they think that their kid is immune to what is going on there, or they just don't know what is going on there, or both?

No, I think that parents are— some of them know the risk, some of them ignore it. But I talk about this in the book, and it's not an easy topic to tackle, but the parent's ego plays a tremendous role in whether or not a child goes to college. Parents are deemed to be a failure in upper-middle-class suburban society if little Johnny doesn't go to college.

Mm-hmm.

It's very difficult for some parents to stomach the social stigma that comes with having to turn to a relative or a neighbor and say, you know, my son is trying— is going to become a carpenter, or my daughter is going to start a business. Instead, it's much easier to say that my son went— is going to the University of Texas Austin, Has become an atheist, non-binary, hates America, is now a vegan, and has now dedicated their life— because you can't even say his or her life— to climate change activism. That's actually acceptable in upper middle class society. That's understandable. But God forbid that your son or daughter goes into the trades, into the muscular class, earns $100,000 a year debt-free, gets married, has children, has a strong moral compass. believes there is a God, that's a tougher argument to make. It's much easier to say that your child has a meaningless piece of paper than is actually filled with strong values.

God, was that brilliant. I tell you, I smile. You can't see me. Well, you can actually if you, uh, watch the broadcast, not just listen. But anyway, I was smiling the whole time. That's right. Uh, you'll love this. Uh, you, you It's painful to me, but you probably heard me say this in light of how much you've listened to me, which I'm very honored by. So I always tell this as a joke about my fellow Jews that— who fulfill exactly the description you just said. And I say, you know, people come over to me all the time at airports, for example, you know, get a selfie just to say hi, restaurants. And I said, I don't know if it's a Jew or a non-Jew, except in one instance. If they immediately tell me what college their kid goes to, I know I'm talking to a Jew. And Jews crack up when I say it because they recognize themselves. So how are you, Charlie? Oh, great. You know, my daughter's at Dartmouth. That's the first piece of information you might get. That's right. But it's, of course, it's not only true about Jews. Your point, that's why I was smiling, the accuracy of what you just said, that my son, the dichotomy you described was perfect. By the way, his book is The College Scam. It is up at DennisPrager.com. It is at, you just told me, TheCollegeScam.com, or of course you get it from Amazon or wherever you buy books. It is out today. I'm delighted that You're on my show the day it is coming out. But that dichotomy. So you have a wonderful child who shares your values but never went to college. But that doesn't give you as much pride as the kid who went to some, quote unquote, prestigious university and has rejected all your values. That's the painful truth. And that's what you described there. So, so you answered. So my first question was, why do conservative parents send their kids to college? If it's not for STEM— science, technology, engineering, math. By the way, in light of that, do you have an answer? I don't. Do a parent— do parents have a choice if their kid does go into science, technology, engineering, or math?

Well, I mean, if they have a choice of whether or not to go to college, it's far more difficult. There are better technical schools. I say start regionally or locally or on a county level. Those tend to be less radical, especially the technical schools that have corporate partnerships. For example, all throughout the state of Michigan, there are technical schools about how to master the auto mechanic trade. Obviously, it's a huge industry throughout the state of Michigan. And those, those haven't become too radical yet. But I do push back in the book a little bit, Dennis. Let's say you want to go into science. I mean, you've covered this better than anybody else I can think of. Science is not immune to wokeism or politics. I mean, science is now where this debate is raging more than ever. It's really not a debate. It's more kind of a colonialist takeover of wokeism, taking over what used to be called, you know, the scientific method or biology. You know, these things are now— that used to be immune to politics are more political than ever. Engineering still is a little bit walled off, but the idea pathogen that stems from the humanities departments has infected almost every single vertical of the American academy. I will say, though, there is more use in the job market for a science, technology, engineering, and math degree than there is in the humanities. And—

All right, let me talk to you— hold on, hold on, keep that in mind. Remember the words, the other part, you'll remember. But I want to talk to you about people hiring. Will they hire the The non-college grad. The book is The College Scam. Important book.

This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom.

I was asking you, first of all, did you want to continue with thought, or shall I just continue with some I think it ties into your question.

Uh, I actually think it ties into your question, Dennis. Um, but you go ahead. I think, I think it actually parlays into the topic you teased, uh, before the break.

Right. Okay. So there are, there are a number of items that are, that are on my mind in this regard. Why don't we go to the, uh— because time flies, as you know, as a talk show host, as a colleague of mine at Salem Radio. The bankrupting part is frightening. Before that, I just want you to know you didn't go to college, and I have 2 sons, one of whom did not go to college. And I just want everybody to understand that I don't give a damn whether or not he went to college. I care about his character. I care about— His values. What does he want to do with his life? So basically what he wants to do with his life, he just got married. He wants to make— he wants to have children. He wants to make a family. He wants to lead, to the best of my knowledge, an honorable life. He's starting a business with a guy where he lives in Pennsylvania. Why would I care if he went to college?

I just—

Your first answer to me was so important because parents are the problem. Oh, my kid has to go to college or I am a loser. I, the father, or I, the mother, am a loser. You're not a loser if your kid didn't go to college, especially when you think what might have happened at the college. If you want to comment on that, fine. If not, we'll just move on to the bankruptcy.

Yes. And I'll add on to that, Dennis. So a lot of people believe that if the kid gets— your kid gets into college, then everything's just going to work out great. So one of the questions I get a lot, and I address this head-on in the book, is, Charlie, what about all of the hiring requirements? Don't they all require a college degree? So I dive deep into the actual data in this book. It has over 35 pages of footnotes. It took me 2 and a half years to do all the research, and I've been thinking about this topic for well over 10 years and learned a lot from you, Dennis. On some of the value-based arguments on this. But the one number that really strikes me is that 40% of students that enroll in 4-year college drop out. 40%. That alone shows we have too many kids going to college. And then on top of that, 60% of those that end up graduating— that's right, 60%— if they end up getting a job, they get a job in a field that does not require a college degree. So said differently, out of the 23 million students that are actively in college right now, around 5 to 6 million will end up graduating and end up getting a job in a field that actually requires a college degree. If you want to narrow that universe even more, Dennis, it goes down to 3 or 4 million out of the 22 to 23 million that are active college students that end up graduating, end up getting a job that requires a college degree. Or end up getting a job that requires a college degree in the field they actually studied. For example, you might study economics and then become an HR manager. And so you're talking about a sliver of a field of 23 million people that are actually getting provable value out of this entire scam of an experiment that is higher education.

A kid who majors in sociology— I'll even put aside the easy targets like gender studies. A kid who majors in sociology, overwhelmingly just the propaganda department for radical ideas, what does that kid assume he or she will do with that degree?

When— during all my conversations with them, they don't really think that through, but they're told that the piece of paper is necessary, especially from parents and guidance counselors. And boy, do high school guidance counselors deserve a huge amount of blame. The pressure they put on amazing young people to unnecessarily go into a college system. I talk about that at great length in the book. But the issue is this, is that we have now had to create new industries, Dennis, to satisfy this new population of young people. And so I think that we get this backwards sometimes. We have to understand that, you know, because we have all of these young people looking for jobs and looking for work, And you have these massive corporations, they create radical HR departments and new departments in the HR department to staff them with these young people. And they're only tasked with trying to destroy things that already exist, to be activists. And so you have Goldman Sachs where they have entire diversity, equity, inclusion department of their HR department that is staffed with people of sociology degrees and gender studies degrees. So we have— we've almost—

Okay.

Go ahead.

That is so— no, no, that is critical. I want to continue that point about how many people are employed by the woke world. By the way, Charlie, on behalf of you, I'm asking this question. Will there be an Audible?

You know, I— there will be. I'm trying to find the time in my schedule to narrate it, and that's, that's the challenge, isn't it?

Um, it—

Well, I had— I'll tell you my solution. I didn't read it.

No, I know there's— and it's not the same. As someone who's listened to your Rational Bible on Audible, I, I wish it was you narrating it. I mean that as a—

I agree with you. I know, I know that, and I will one day. But, uh, I rather write more because people don't have an idea how long it takes if you're not a professional reader. And, and obviously I've—

it could take days, days, days.

Yes, if you're lucky. If it's Thanks, Dave. Anyway, I'm looking forward to it because I think the more people exposed to what you're writing here, the better. So you were talking about jobs that don't require or do require a college degree. I would like to know, other than, let's say, physics or math, Or perhaps law. What exactly— what is the average job that requires a college degree, and do you think that that is an appropriate requirement?

No, not at all. I mean, everything from a receptionist to, you know, even just a low-level job in some offices in major cities, they say college degree required.

And why? Why do they do that?

They— well, why? It's— I think it's twofold. I think there's a sinister explanation. I think there's an innocent one. The innocent one is they think somehow they're going to get a more qualified person, when in reality they actually get someone more entitled that's not going to be as happy in that job because they're saddled with debt and they're going to create more issues because they want an immediate promotion.

Right, of course.

Now, the sinister one, I do think— the sinister one, I do think that— and I don't think every company is in on the game, but I think there is a protection racket going on of this cartel, as I call it, meaning from the hiring managers to the accreditation colleges, everybody benefits from the current model right now. Not everybody, I should say, but the insiders, if you will, from the major universities, from the board members themselves, and from some of these major hiring firms. Now, what's interesting though, Dennis, is I think we're starting to see this crack where— and I have a whole chapter on this— on how CEOs, Fortune 100 CEOs, are complaining. In fact, they say that we are in a crisis because the graduates from these universities, they are saying they do not have writing skills, vocabulary skills, they complain far too much, their work ethic is deteriorated, and they're saying colleges are not producing anywhere near what is required to remain competitive at their companies. So I think you're gonna start to see the scrapping of the college requirement and just a question of, are you willing to do the work? Are you willing to learn? Or are you going to spend an hour a day in the HR department complaining that you're— somebody said something insensitive to you? And this is a point that I really want to make forward in the book, which is that yes, amongst most conservative circles, there is an agreement that universities are liberal, or left-wing, to use more precise language. Of course, they're far left-wing. But what most conservatives need to know is that what happens on college campuses does not stay on college campuses. It goes into corporate boardrooms and in the halls of Congress. There was always this belief that the idea pathogens would just stay on the university campuses and they wouldn't infect other places across society. The entire country has been taken over by academia, from our sciences, from this transgender topic, to the moral confusion. I believe all roads lead back to the American academy.

I want to thank Charlie because now I don't have to write the book.

So you've done me a great service. Thank you.

Really quickly, all profits and proceeds of the book go to Turning Point USA.

Really?

All right.

Thank you. Tomorrow on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.

We normally talk about everything in life, but today we're going to be talking about 9/11. And I'd like you to hear how I began the show on 9/11/01. And remember, my show airs live. It opens up at 9 AM Pacific time, which is noon Eastern time. So I had a chance to open my West Coast morning show, East Coast Beginning in the afternoon show and having seen what I saw and what we have all seen many times and should see many times. The mind is, is easily distracted by other things in life, and sometimes we do need reminders.

Join us tomorrow to hear more on Timeless Wisdom. With Dennis Prager. Visit DennisPrager.com for thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles. We want to take just a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the podcast. Go to LifeAudio.com to find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network, including shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, And more.

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