In a heated discussion on The Dennis Prager Show, host Dennis Prager confronts evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins about the cultural and moral implications of Islam supplanting Christianity in the West. Prager frames the debate as a stark good‑versus‑evil issue, citing the rise of mosque construction in Europe, the decline of church attendance, and the alleged murder of 60,000 Christians by Muslims in West Africa. He argues that the Bible’s moral commands, especially the imperative to hate evil, are essential for a moral society. Dawkins, while an atheist, describes himself as a "cultural Christian," expressing affection for Christian hymns, holidays, and architecture, and stating he would choose Christianity over Islam because he views Islam as fundamentally hostile to women and LGBTQ people. The conversation touches on religious doctrine, cultural identity, and the perceived threat of Islamic influence on Western morality, concluding with Prager’s behaviorist view that courage and moral action stem from deliberate choice.
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So let's see, uh, yeah, oh, it's all over the internet. It's fascinating. He is an emeritus fellow of New College Oxford, Professor of Public Understanding of Science, University of Oxford, author of The Selfish Gene. He's an evolutionary biologist. There you go, perfect. Evolutionary biologist. He thinks everything came about on its own. It's a stupid belief, but it doesn't matter. I don't care that he believes that. I care that he has come around realizing, and he's been very forthright, that with the kind of Christianity, what you're getting as the churches die out, you're getting a lot of mosques. Do you think that the West will be as moral if any society, if in any society Islam replaces Christianity? I mean, it's the only question that matters to me. I am preoccupied with good and evil. I am a Jew who has brought vast numbers of people back to their Christian roots. And vast numbers, for that matter, proportionately, of Jews back to their Jewish roots. And I have done it by the force of reason. Alone. Here are the arguments for why you should take the Bible seriously. In the case of Jews, the Old Testament. In the case of Christians, the Old and New Testaments. New Testament is dependent upon the Old Testament for many, many reasons. So Richard Dawkins has been pretty forthright. Is it too late? That is the question. I don't know. People thought if you bring in millions of people into the West from the Middle East, it'll have no effect on the freedom and morality of the Western societies. Why did they think that? Have Middle Eastern countries been exemplifiers of goodness and freedom, tolerance? So here is Richard Dawkins.
Well, I must say I was slightly horrified to hear that Ramadan is being promoted instead. I do think that we are culturally a Christian country. Call myself a cultural Christian. I'm not a believer, but there's a distinction between being a believing Christian and being a cultural Christian. And so, you know, I love hymns and Christmas carols, and I sort of feel at home in the Christian ethos. I feel that we are a Christian country in that sense. It's true that statistically the number of people who actually believe in Christianity is going down, And I'm happy with that. But I would not be happy if, for example, we lost all our cathedrals and our beautiful parish churches. So I count myself a cultural Christian. I think it wouldn't matter if we— certainly if we substituted any alternative religion, that would be truly dreadful.
Well, which brings me to my supplementary point, which is that, as we know, church attendance is plummeting, but the building, the erection of mosques across Europe, I think 6,000 are under construction and there are many more, I mean, are being planned. So do you think, do you regard that as a problem? Do you think that matters?
Yes, I do really. I mean, I might choose my words carefully. I mean, if I had to choose between Christianity and Islam, I'd choose Christianity every single time. I mean, it seems to me to be a fundamentally decent religion, um, in a way that I think Islam is not.
I think you're going to have to explain why you say that, Professor Dawkins. Why is Islam a profound—
well, the way—
fundamentally not decent like Christianity?
Yes, I mean, the, the, the way women are treated— I mean, Christianity is not great about that. It's had its problems with female vicars and female bishops and things. But there's an active hostility to women which is promoted, I think, by the holy books of Islam. I'm not talking about individual Muslims who, of course, are quite different. But the doctrines of Islam, the Hadith and the Quran, is fundamentally hostile to women, hostile to gays. And I find that I— I like to live in a culturally Christian country, although I do not believe a single word of the Christian faith.
All right. What he missed, it is frequently noted, the problem— problems of women, women's rights, and gay rights, and countries governed by Islamic— the Islamic religion. I think perhaps the even greater point is the hostility to non-Muslims. 60,000 Christians have been murdered by Muslims in West Africa since the year 2000. One of the proofs that the hatred of Israel is because Israel is Jewish is that the mass slaughter of Christians by Muslims is never spoken of. Never. It is utterly ignored. They're probably even now, uh, or I don't know, probably there might be more Christians exercised over Israel trying to exist in a place surrounded by people who wish to destroy them, murder them, every one of them, than they are bothered by the slaughter of Christians by Muslims in West Africa. Well, it was the, uh, some major Black church group came out on behalf of the Palestinians, which is the same thing today as being on behalf of Hamas, just as being pro-German in 1943 was being pro-Nazi. I wonder if that church, uh, I'll get, I'll get you the name. It's a group of churches, it's not one church. Have they said anything? Have they been active on behalf of Black— ironically, Black Christians slaughtered by Muslims in West Africa? Tens of thousands, 60,000. It's the sick world. My favorite verse in the Bible is, "Those of you who love God must hate evil." And it's a command. Hebrew has a command form, so it's not debatable. It's not— in English you have to add the word "should" or "must" because we don't have a command form. We have a present and a past and a future form. Well, actually, we don't have a future form of verbs. We have to add the word will. I will go, you will go, he will go. But you get what I mean. There is a command form. If you don't hate evil, you don't love God. The number of religious people who unfortunately fall into the category of not hating evil is not small, shall we say. Because to hate evil is to have courage, and most people don't have courage. You know how, by the way, how you get courage? What do you think I'll say? The answer is by wanting to be courageous. That's all you need to do. Generally speaking, we become what we want to be. I don't mean a physicist. Well, that's true too. If you want to be a physicist, you become a physicist. But it's hard to become a physicist at the age of 50, let's say, or certainly a competent physicist. But nevertheless, generally speaking, you are what you want to be. You want to be kind, act kind. You want to be courageous? Act courageously. That's why I'm a behaviorist. You are what you do. You do what you want to do. That's the equation of life. For the full episode of The Dennis Prager Show, go to pragertopia.com, sign up, and become a full member.
