Timeless Wisdom - Learn History with Dennis Prager - Part 9

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Learn more at aarp.org/careforcaregivers. Paid for by AARP. Welcome to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Hear thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs. And to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to DennisPrager.com. I really love the newest biographies that come out of the presidents because Obviously presidents are— there's an intrinsic interest in the president of the United States, especially if you're American. But also, my belief is the best way to learn history is through biography, because it's very hard to grasp a big, broad, general macro history, as good as they are and as important as they are. So there's a brand new biography out of the 6th president of the United States, John Quincy Adams. And it is by a terrific biographer, Fred Kaplan, who's also distinguished professor emeritus of English at Queens College in New York City. And, uh, he has now written this biography of John Quincy Adams, the son of John Adams, and it is simply subtitled American Visionary. Why Mr. Kaplan thinks that John Quincy Adams is visionary is one of the many questions I have. So first of all, Fred Kaplan, welcome to The Dennis Prager Show.

I'm delighted to be with you.

It's my delight. So I am going to start with a micro aspect. You know, the man was president. You think my first question would be about his presidency, but I want, I want you to relate to my listeners and to me what he endured with the loss of his children?

Ah, yes, that, that is a, uh, a story that resonates for all of us because we all experience loss in our lives. John Quincy Adams and his wife Louisa had 4 children, uh, and of the 4 of them, 3 died during their lifetimes. Deeply, deeply painful to both of them. He— they had a little daughter, a girl, uh, who died at the age of 1. He was at the time a minister to the court of St. Petersburg, a senior American diplomat representing the United States abroad. And the little girl died after 1 year, and they were both heartbroken. They— was their youngest. They already had 3 children. And of the 3 children, the 3 sons, they all came to adulthood, but 2 of the 3 died, and they died in ways that struck deep, deep pain into parents' hearts. One of the sons committed suicide.

At what age?

He was approximately 25, and he had some years of great unhappiness and depression. And seemed not to be able to control his life. There were great expectations for him. He felt terribly depressed because he couldn't fulfill them. Father and son had both a good relationship and a bad relationship. A good one in they both loved and admired one another. A bad one in the sense that John Quincy had a pedagogic streak and was always eager to teach people. And sometimes it's not very easy to teach one your own children. And that became a source of tension to him, to both of them, and especially to the boy who committed suicide, jumped from a steamer steaming from Newport, Rhode Island down to New York City where he was on his way.

And how did another son die?

The other son was afflicted by what was a long-standing condition in the Addams family and also longstanding affliction, I should say, in the Adams family, and that was alcoholism. He died from an alcohol-related illness.

How old was he?

He was in his early 30s and left— he left two children. The oldest son, George Washington Adams, who committed suicide, was unmarried and left no children. So John Quincy Adams and Louisa had two grandchildren and a daughter-in-law who was a widow. They supported all three of them and helped raise the grandchildren. The youngest son, fortunately, coped with the world very effectively, including coping with his father and mother, and rose to some distinction. Charles Francis Adams became Abraham Lincoln, President Abraham Lincoln's ambassador to the Court of St. James to England, and had a distinguished career of his own. Law, politics, and government.

I just wanted people to, to know this because, uh, I, I do a lot of work on the subject of happiness, and I do an hour each week on it. I've written a book on it, a lecture on it, and I— one of the themes that I, I point out to people is to understand how ubiquitous suffering is. And, and, you know, you think a man became President of the United States You can't get a higher position than that really in the world. And look at what he had to suffer. Look at what he went through. So let me ask you this, because you obviously did such copious research on this man's life, John Quincy Adams. How did his faith play a role in his coping, if at all? Because I know he was a religious man.

It played a very strong role indeed, a very strong role. John Quincy Adams was immersed in the Judeo-Christian tradition. His practice was to read the Bible in the King James Version. He also read it in other versions and languages, a chapter every day, and then start again. But he was not a theological Christian. By that I mean he was not interested in theological disputation. He looked to religion for comfort in suffering and for ethical guidance. He thought that Christianity offered more consolation and guidance of an ethical sort than any of the other religions he studied, because indeed he was born into a Congregationalist and Protestant Christian world. He was almost non-denominational. Yes, he was a loyal member of his family's Congregational Church in Quincy, Massachusetts, but he went to churches of every denomination. When he lived in Washington, he went to Episcopalian services. His wife was an Episcopalian. He went to Presbyterian services, and he went to Unitarian services. And in a sense, he liked his religion to be old-fashioned in the Protestant sense, with a little bit of a Calvinistic twist to it. But nevertheless, he enjoyed Unitarian sermons. He went on Sunday to two sermons every day, one in the morning and one in the late afternoon. He wrote in his diary about— he gave a synopsis of the sermon and he gave his responses to it. And his main interest was in the ethical concept.

Well, I relate to the— I relate— I totally relate to him and to the Founders. That's exactly what they wanted. You write here his, uh, you quote him, 'There was no Christian church with which I could not join in social worship.' Exactly.

Fellowship was crucial.

And yeah, exactly what I think.

And disputation, theological disputation, right?

Was not— yeah, I, I— look, I, I love the Founders, and I would— I'll include him Dennis Prager, even though he comes later. Okay, so now tell us, because there are so many highlights to this man's life, and some lowlights, obviously, as for all of us, but I don't think most Americans today realize what a— probably the most disputed election, and that may even include Bush-Gore. Uh, in American history. So tell us about the election of 1824.

Well, John Quincy Adams was only the second president—

actually, hold on, tell us that, tell us that when we come back. I, I want people to hear it in total. It's a fascinating story and, and it's a fascinating book. The best way to learn history is, when it's possible, is in my opinion through biography. So there's a brand new, uh, a brand new biography that has just come out, John Quincy Adams. And he's obviously not the first president you think of when you think of presidents. That's part of the reason I love reading about the, if you will, the second-tier president. Although we'll find out what tier our Professor Kaplan thinks he should be on. The book is John Quincy Adams. It is up at DennisPrager.com. And we continue on a History Hour when we come back. Hi everybody, Dennis Prager here, and I welcome you back or to the show. This is a history hour. Periodically I feature a brand new work of history because I love history, because it's the only way to understand. It really is the only way to understand. Why we are what we are, where we came from. I don't mean biologically, that really doesn't interest me. I'm not a blood fan, but I'm a history fan, I'm a values fan. And this brand new work, uh, out, a history of the 6th President of the United States, John Quincy Adams. And, uh, the author is Fred Kaplan, who's a distinguished professor emeritus of English. At Queens College and has really been a biographer his whole life. And we talked about the loss of 3 of his 4 children. I mean, think about what pain he and his wife Louisa had gone through. I began in the micro and now we're going into the macro. He also was part of the most disputed election, arguably, perhaps, I guess Bush-Gore might be up there with that, in American history. So this is 1824, he's running against Andrew Jackson and others. So tell us what happened.

Uh, John Quincy Adams was only the second president in American history to be elected not by the popular vote and not by the Electoral College, but by the House of Representatives. Thomas Jefferson was the first. No president since 1824 has been elected by the House of Representatives. Uh, he did not receive the majority. He did not even receive the most Electoral College votes or popular votes of any of the candidates. Andrew Jackson did. Oh, the race would have been a lot closer if the Constitution hadn't provided the southern states, or the slave-owning states, with extra votes because of the three-fifths rule. But nevertheless, it was something new for the country. Even though Jefferson had been elected by the House of House of Representatives, the circumstances were really quite different, and it was sort of a freaky thing. Here it was, you know, the real thing. And of course, Jackson's supporters were utterly furious, particularly because John Quincy Adams received the majority of votes in the House of Representatives when Henry Clay, a terrific American patriot and political leader who had been a candidate but who was not eligible for the runoff, turned his electoral votes over to John Quincy Adams. So Adams was elected president in circumstances in which a lot of people thought it was illegitimate, it was unwarranted, even though it was perfectly constitutional and they had no grounds for complaint in any legal or constitutional way. They in fact felt gypped. And they determined right from the start that they were not going to give John Quincy Adams any victories, any accomplishments in office.

So, alright, just to clarify for me, I don't quite understand. He ran for president against Andrew Jackson. Who won the electoral vote?

Nobody won enough electoral votes to be elected. You must get a majority of the electoral votes to be elected.

That's because there was more than a two-man race?

Oh yes, there were four candidates, including Henry Clay. There were 4 candidates.

So Jackson came in first and Quincy Adams came in second.

That's correct.

And then— oh, so it was— well, so it was a runoff vote, but not in popular vote. It was a runoff in the House.

Oh, in the House of Representatives.

I see.

That's what the Constitution provides.

So why are the Jackson people angry as opposed to just distraught.

Well, they were angry because the prize that they thought they deserved, they didn't get.

All right, so, well, that's true for anybody who wins the electoral vote and loses the Electoral College.

Well, I'm almost at a loss for words because you're getting me to say something that, of course, we're all so familiar with, and that is when you think you deserve something and you don't get it, you can act in ways that are irrational and counterproductive.

Yes, alright, exactly, I understand that. Okay, very good. Alright, so very good. Alright, now let's— alright, so that's how he wins the election, and the opposition spends his 4 years trying to undo everything he does.

That's true, and not pass any of his programs. It's in addition complicated by the fact that representatives in the House and the Senate from the South essentially control Congress. And they're also uneasy with John Quincy Adams getting elected because they believe he is anti-slavery, even though he has not come out explicitly in public and said, "I oppose slavery, I am for emancipation or abolition." He has not come out publicly yet. He did so later in his career and say that. But they had quite correctly, in the sense that he didn't approve of slavery and thought that it should be gradually eliminated, as soon as possible, but gradually over time eliminated. And since the Southern culture and mentality and political leadership really dominated Washington, as it essentially did from George Washington up until the 16th president, up until Lincoln, it was a very Southern-inflected federal government. For that reason, too, they were very cautious about John Quincy Adams.

So, what was Andrew Jackson's views on slavery?

Andrew Jackson was pro-slavery.

Right, so—

He was a slave owner.

Exactly. So why would Henry Clay undermine Jackson's chances of being elected by running?

Well, uh, well, Henry Clay hated Andrew Jackson, both personally and politically. Um, they, they both were, uh, from the South.

Wait a minute, are you telling me that American politicians hated each other even in the beginning? This is not new?

Yes, I'm sorry, I, I'm sorry, I'm sorry to have to— this is—

oh, I, I— it's a killer. I know it does. I, you know— all right, go ahead.

I— yes, yes. I know this, and most— I think most Americans are aware that our politics has been contentious from the very start, including the creation of the American Constitution in 1787. Today there's a sort of general widespread worship of that Constitution. It's our founding document, it's sacred, that we all are committed to it. But when the Constitution was passed in 1787, 1780, it was narrowly— between 1787 and 1789, had to be ratified by the states— it was narrowly narrowly ratified. There was tremendous opposition in this country to the Constitution. We have always had contentious government. The salvation historically has been that though we've had contentious government, except for one horrible episode, our Civil War, we always managed to—

That's right. That's the hope, exactly. Back in a moment. I'm speaking to Fred Kaplan. The brand-new biography of John Quincy Adams, the 6th president. It is subtitled American Visionary, and the book is up at DennisPrager.com. Hello everybody, Dennis Prager here, and this This is an Hour of History or History Hour, which I periodically broadcast because I am in love with history. Why am I in love with history? Because it explains where we are today. Also, you realize these people, you know, they lived a life that was as real as ours. They're not— as soon as you plug into that fact, it gets overwhelming.

Wow.

They were as real as I am. I know that sounds funny, but people don't think that way. It's like when we watch black and white war films, it doesn't seem as real as color, but they were, they were in color. Life was in color. Life was lived just like we are. The latest book of history to be featured is this Fred Kaplan, professor at CUNY, City University of New York, and he has written John Quincy Adams: American Visionary. He specializes in biography. And the story of the man and the times, every, every epic in America is fascinating. And this obviously is one of them in the contentiousness of the time. So now I'm going back and forth with his life, with you, with your— so let me go to you now. I have never written a biography. I'm writing my autobiography and I'm really liking the guy I'm writing about. I have to say, I'm really getting to like him. You're writing a biography— you wrote a biography. I mean, it's, it's, it's immense. It's a 600-page biography of Quincy Adams. Happily, you write interestingly, so it's not an issue, but, but it's obviously copious research. Did you get to like him? How does a biographer relate to his subject?

In every, in every case, for me, I have begun with curiosity about my subject and with the potential for my awareness that there was a potential for my really respecting and admiring the subject. And my vision of my role as a biographer is to give the person all in all but to be as humanely and as empathetically sympathetic, to try to see the world to some extent from the point of view of my subject, to have faith in the principle that all human beings share their humanness for better and for worse. and that when we get to know one another in the fullest way possible, we can, without evasion of weaknesses and flaws, we can gain respect for one another. Well, in the case of every one of my subjects, from Carlyle to Dickens to Henry James to Lincoln to John Quincy Adams, I have indeed been develop deep, deep commitment to these people.

Do you feel that you know him?

I feel, I feel that I know him.

Wow.

To the degree that you can know any other human being.

No, that's, that's huge. That's huge.

And some people are harder to know than others. Some people have deep areas of reserve that is very deeply to crack.

If you, if you could speak to him, well, and you could ask him a question, what would you ask him?

You know, if I could see him and ask him question, I would say John Quincy Adams. You accomplished so much in your lifetime, and in reading and writing about you, I have a sense, of course, that so much of your life had unhappy moments, times, years, situations, bitterness, and disappointment. What carried you through all this? And what generated your ability to keep going despite all the things that were dragging you backwards? Personal depression, which is what I asked you.

I, I asked you that question about him.

Yes, and it's a difficult question.

Yeah, because he suffered so much, but he has an answer to it.

He does have an answer to it, and this is the, the advice he gave to to his sons and to everybody else when it was appropriate to give advice, and sometimes perhaps when it wasn't appropriate.

And that was?

And that was immersion in work.

Wow. All right, we'll be back in a moment. How interesting. John Quincy Adams, the book up at DennisPrager.com. Fred Kaplan, the professor, the writer. You are listening to A History Hour, and we can We'll continue in a moment on The Dennis Prager Show. Hi everybody, Dennis Prager here. Welcome back. Periodically I have a history hour because I love history. And many of you love history, and if you don't love history, well, it's my duty to try to get you to love it because it's so important. And I love featuring— I always feature a new book on history. It could well be something international, it's not only American, but within American history, when there's a new biography of a president, I'm particularly interested. And no matter how obscure— this is not an obscure president, but certainly not one we we think of immediately, the 6th president, and that is John Quincy Adams, the son of John Adams. And the biographer is Fred Kaplan, distinguished professor emeritus of English at Queens College and the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. How did he get along with his famous father, John Adams?

He got along wonderfully well with his famous father. He looked up to him, he admired and respected him immensely. As a young boy of 10 years of age, John Quincy Adams was taken by his father, the second president who at that time was appointed by the Congress— by the Congressional Convention to represent America in Europe, particularly in France and the Netherlands. He was taken by his father to Europe to be educated at the knee of his father and in European schools to learn languages, to become educated and enlightened. And he deeply admired his father. They bonded closely together. They traveled together on perilous voyages across the Atlantic, uh, and, uh, they, uh, were always deeply, deeply empathetic to one another. They were intellectually well-matched. John Adams, our second president, was a brilliant man, and so was his son.

And how did he get along with Abigail?

I, I, he got it. He loved his mother dearly.

And wow, he loved both his parents.

He loved both his parents.

That's good.

Yeah.

Okay, that's what's the but?

There's a but, and, and that is, uh, he objected, especially as he grew older into his late adolescence and early adulthood, to his mother's controlling impulse. She was constantly attempting to direct her son in ways that she thought desirable. For example, he fell in love with Louisa Catherine Johnstone, the daughter of an American tobacco merchant resident in London. She had never been to America, and he wanted to marry her. Abigail Adams said, I think you ought to marry an American woman, because if you marry someone born and brought up in England and you come here, it will not be in your favor when you become a lawyer or a public figure or what have you. She was—

wait, so what happened? So what happened?

He married Louisa Catherine Adams.

Wait a minute, so wait, so wait, there was a First Lady who was not born in America?

That's right.

Was she the only one?

The only one as far as I'm aware of, except of course Martha Washington.

Oh, I didn't realize that either. Okay, well, all right, yeah, but that—

well, wait, trick response, because the United States didn't—

all right, so for that matter, neither was George Washington— wasn't born in America.

That's right.

Yeah, okay, all right, that was— that's a trick question. I like that.

I said—

yeah, I, I like that. I, I have no problem. I fell in and I, and I get up with dignity. All right, don't worry about it. But only Louisa Catherine Johnson, when she married Wait, but, but, explain, forgive me, I want to understand something. He had not met her before he proposed?

I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.

He had not met her before he proposed to her?

Oh no, no, he had met her. He was—

He met her in England.

He met her in England.

Okay, fine.

All right. Because, because John Quincy was appointed minister to the Netherlands in 1809. No, I'm sorry, earlier, in 1797. 1798, he was appointed minister to the Netherlands by George Washington, and he was a resident in Europe at that time. He had been in Europe for many years though, previous to this, and he met Louisa Johnson in England.

Okay, gotcha.

In London.

All right, let me ask, because time is always the enemy here, what would you say was his greatest achievement?

I would say that his greatest achievement was as a congressman.

After, after his presidency?

After his presidency. The greatest achievement that resonates today is what he accomplished in Congress. Now, he is reputed by scholars of American diplomacy to have been the greatest diplomat and Secretary of State that the United States has ever had. His accomplishments as Secretary of State between 1870 and 1825 were immense. But my response to the question is that today what resonates most is his pro-Constitution, anti-slavery speeches and activity and influence in Congress in those years in which He served as the only American ex-president who ever served in high elective office afterwards.

A lot of onlys in his life.

Yes, a very unique career, a distinctive man.

What was his involvement in the Amistad Rebellion?

Well, he was a key figure for— while he was serving as a congressman in 1840, 1841, this is approximately 8 years before he his death at the age of 80, he was approached by numbers of anti-slavery Northerners and asked if he would defend the right of the Amistad prisoners—these were shipwrecked blacks from Africa who were being taken to Cuba to be sold as slaves. Illegally taken to Cuba to be sold as slaves. They have been stolen and snatched from Africa. And the issue was, did they deserve freedom? Should they be sent back to Africa, or should they be sent to Cuba and to enslavement? The United States government had great difficulty with this. They went—

and Quincy Adams was—

John Quincy Adams defended them.

Okay. Hey, hold on a moment. John Quincy Adams is the book, Fred Kaplan the author. We continue. Final segment of my fascinating hour here with Fred Kaplan, distinguished professor emeritus of English at City University of New York, who spent his life writing biographies, and the latest qualifies perfectly— any of them would actually for History Hour because it doesn't have to be an American, but when there's a new one of an American president, I particularly enjoy it. John Quincy Adams is the case here. And as I have found with authors of books on presidents that are more obscure than John Quincy Adams, you learn so much about America at the time through the life of that one person. And it's, as I said earlier, I think it's, it's certainly the most enjoyable way to learn history, through biography. There's so much I would want to ask you, so I'm going to ask you something else that you probably wouldn't expect, but I'd be very curious given your wide reading. Well, who would you recommend I read, or any of my listeners obviously, on other presidents? Do you have a favorite Washington biography, Adams biography, Jefferson, uh, Rutherford B. Hayes?

Wow, that, that, that's, that's, uh, quite a question. You're going to get me in a lot of trouble with my fellow authors.

Yeah, but you live in such an obscure place they won't be able to find I know, but I travel and I'm vulnerable when I travel.

What I did want to say to you about John Quincy Adams and the Amistad, because you know it was made into a famous movie and it's a wonderful movie with Anthony Hopkins playing John Quincy Adams, is that John Quincy Adams defended the Amistad prisoners and won a brilliant victory before the United States Supreme Court that gave these prisoners their total freedom. So I hope you don't mind my deflecting away from your question slightly to make that very, very important point. Right.

Is the deflection permanent? I'll just keep talking on other subjects. Yes, it is. Okay. No, no, I understand. Look, folks, I want to explain. He's a living historian. Obviously, I don't talk to dead historians. He's a living historian and he doesn't want to, in effect, hurt any of his fellow historians. And I respect that. But if you had, I was curious, but it's not a problem. But so Quincy Adams has— is he respected even by his foes, or is he hated by his foes?

Well, in his lifetime, of course, he He was widely and deeply admired by many people, but essentially the country was sectionally divided, and the division and barriers between the North and the South were just so high and formidable. So he was not at all liked in the South. You know, he was an early— he was hated. He was an early an early version of Lincoln who was hated by the South.

Gotcha. Well, to find out more, and I think a lot of you listening will want to, John Quincy Adams by Fred Kaplan. Fred, it was a real joy. Thank you, sir.

Oh, thank you. It was a pleasure.

This has been Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Visit DennisPrager.com. Go to dennisprager.com for thousands of hours of Dennis' lectures, courses, and classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles.