Timeless Wisdom: Men's Sexual Nature (Part 7) - Men's Sexual Nature: Adultery - What Is It and Ho...

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Welcome to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Hear thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs. And to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to DennisPrager.com. Another easy topic: adultery. You can't say I haven't really faced the music in this course. I mean, These have not been easy things to do. You know, it was very— I have to be— I'll tell you a very funny story. My older kids, of course, know what I'm teaching here, but I also have a 6-year-old, and he knows I come to the University of Judaism regularly to teach Torah. And so I didn't have the heart to say, "What are you going to teach tonight?" "Adultery." I didn't have the heart to say it, but I must have. Toro. Yes, yeah, got it. There are times, you know, in the macro, in the public, honesty comes first. In the micro, innocence and love and other things come first. All right. First, we got a problem with adultery. The problem is defining it. These things are not— none of these things are easy. I am one of the handful of people in America to have actually considered that President Clinton's Clintonian English had some merit. And I did not vote for the man, as some of you may know. So this is not an easy thing even to define. So what I did was I went to the dictionary. This is Webster's. Everything is Webster's. Do you know Webster's is not a trademark thing? You could put out Webster's Dictionary. But this is the Webster's I got. And it seems to be the norm among dictionaries. Voluntary sexual intercourse. Between a married man and someone other than his wife, or between a married woman and someone other than her husband. That pretty much cover it. That's, that's a very good working definition of adultery. All right, voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife, between a married woman and someone other than her husband. Okay. That is the modern definition. That has not been the only definition. The Old Testament and the New Testament have different definitions, uh, or additional as well as different. As you know, "You shall not commit adultery" is in the Ten Commandments. It is right after "You shall not commit murder." And there is a good joke about this. It's one of the few jokes I know by heart. You know why Moses came down twice with the tablets? Because of the following: On the second time coming down with the tablets, he said, "Jews," actually Israelites, "I have good news and bad news." The good news is, I got them down to 10. The bad news is, adultery stays. Which gives you an idea of what one of the tougher commandments is for people to live by. That joke is a telling one. The biblical, the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible understanding of adultery will shock some of you. It is extramarital intercourse with a married woman only. A single man can therefore commit adultery. A single woman cannot commit adultery by this definition. The, uh, I read to you from one Jewish scholar: The adultery condemned is that involving a married woman, whereas sexual relations between a married man and an unmarried woman constitute an offense of a lesser category. This double standard, quote unquote, is consistent with a patriarchal system which allowed for polygamy, namely a man marrying more than one woman, but not polyandry, a woman marrying more than one man. Still, if the husband had not taken the second woman as wife or concubine, the relationship was considered to be one of zinut, harlotry, or like prostitution. Uh, John Calvin— oh, well, that's an added point that I'll just mention in a moment. This is a very interesting arena tonight because of differences between Judaism and Christianity, and I'm a big believer that there is such a thing as a Judeo-Christian tradition. I am not always out there showing the differences, but when they exist, they exist, and they are particularly sharp in some areas of sex and particularly adultery. But let me just make this clear again. The biblical prohibition is specifically against sex with a married woman, because a married man could have another wife or a concubine. Is that clear? Whether we like this or not is immaterial. I just want to explain to you what went on. We'll talk about later about is there a difference between a man, uh, committing adultery and a woman. Because that is a very important thing if we want to understand adultery as well. Now to the New Testament. The New Testament goes far, far further than the modern, the Webster definition, or the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible. In the New Testament, not only is adultery by equally by a married man with any woman, or by a married woman with any man. But it is not only if you have sex. Rather, there are two other forms of adultery enunciated in the New Testament. Luke 16:18: Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. That's remarkable to our modern sensibilities. There are many Christians who do, or some Christians who follow this to this day, but in any event, it's quite stretched the definition of adultery beyond the modern and beyond the Hebrew. The second elasticizing of the term adultery is the very famous statement of Jesus in Matthew 5:27: You have heard it, you have heard that it was said, do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Yes, that was exactly right. That was with Jimmy Carter. That was the issue there where he acknowledged that, a born-again Christian that he is. And, uh, this is very, very different from Jewish attitudes. Jewish attitudes are very specific. Adultery cannot be committed in the mind. It can only be committed with the body, and it is specific to certain acts. And here Jesus condemns lust itself, not just lust as a sin, but lust as adultery. That's the word that he uses. Let me tell you something, since I feel very free to be open with you. When I grew up an Orthodox Jew, I'm still a religious Jew, though not Orthodox. And when I— and I'm delighted the way I grew up. It is not something I left with any bitterness or anything. I have wonderful relations with Orthodox Jews and so on. I just want to make that clear. Not being something doesn't mean one is rejecting it. Be that as it may, when I grew up, I had Christian envy. Oh, are they lucky. They are so lucky, Christians, I thought. They get all the rewards of their religion just by believing in Jesus. I have to keep all these laws. I can't drive on Shabbat, on Saturday. I can't eat half the foods that are out there. I have all these prohibitions and they have none of them. All they have to do is believe. God, did they have it easy. I believed that until my mid-30s. This is not something I merely believed at 14. Then I did something that normally counteracts ignorance: actually met the people that I was ignorant of. I got very involved in interreligious dialogue. Very involved. Every week for 10 years. 500 evenings of it. That's a lot. Okay? 1,000 hours over 10 years of interfaith dialogue taught me a lot. And one of the things that I learned was that Christians have it tougher, not easier. Because whereas Judaism has far more prohibitions on behavior, Christianity has far more prohibitions on thought. Thought. And I can much more easily deal with prohibitions on behavior. It's not that hard to avoid shrimp, lobster, oyster, etc. I mean, you get used to it. But the thought that I would be sinning if I ever lusted would be a burden that I would find very difficult to live with. I would either be constantly in guilt, or, or I would be constantly sinning. Or, or, but something would have to give at some point, because if my, if my first lecture is right, the thought that a man should cannot or should not lust except for his wife— and the Pope has said that one should not even lust for one's wife that lust, period, is sinful, this would leave me at war with my nature in a way that I don't have to be when the prohibitions are on behavior, rather than— I mean, that's enough of a war against my nature to have prohibitions on behavior, but prohibitions on thought is a very severe thing. So I never had any more— envy of the Christian's, the individual serious Christian's life, given this burden that he or she would have to bear because of these definitions that I just read to you. Laurie, one extra coarse idea: is it possible for the temperature to change? At a given point, I may faint. That's how warm at least I feel. But, you know, if they can't change, they can't change. All right. That is the, that is the issue on defining adultery. This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom. Let me just tell you something that you'll find interesting in light of what I said about Christians and Jews, or Christianity and Judaism. This is from the Encyclopedia Judaica. John Calvin was astonished at not finding an explicit reference to fornication i.e., relations between unmarried consenting adults, among the sexual prohibitions of the Bible. The area of greatest divergence, I believe, between Judaism and Christianity, I mean, aside from theology, which, which is not as significant as behavior in my opinion, is in the area of sex. Fornication is mentioned repeatedly as a sin in in the New Testament. It is not mentioned once in the Hebrew Bible, in the Old Testament. The only time married between consenting— sex between consenting unmarried people is mentioned. Do you know what the punishment is? There isn't— it isn't even essentially condemned. It's just that if a man has sex with a woman and she is a virgin, He has to marry her, but she doesn't have to marry him. He has to marry her, and if she doesn't marry him, if she chooses not to, he has to pay the family the worth of virginity because he took a valuable item. Virgins were worth more. It was actually seen as a simple societal issue to be dealt with. The sex between the adults is virtually a non-issue. The issue was she lost her virginity. There isn't even talked about what if a non-virgin unmarried woman and a man sleep together. Isn't even suggested as an issue. Does this mean that the Hebrew Bible welcomes orgies among the unmarried? No, it doesn't. Because, and I will explain why later. But please understand, between welcoming and condemning as particularly sinful, as in fornication, There is a divergence. And when I would raise the issue with the different clergy within Christianity and Judaism, it always came out, no matter who the clergy were, liberal Protestant, conservative Protestant, liberal Catholic, conservative Catholic, liberal Jew, conservative Jew, Orthodox Jew, Reform Jew, didn't matter. There was a real divergence on this issue. Whereas lust was perceived by all the Christians as a serious sin, and the Jews, while they hardly held it was a mitzvah to lust, you know, "Oh, it's a great thing," no, but it was just, it wasn't in the pantheon of great sins to be addressed. There were other matters that were far more preoccupying. So it's a very interesting thing. And to that extent, we live in a more Christian country than a Judeo-Christian one in the arena of sex. In all other arenas, I use Judeo-Christian, but in attitudes towards sex, it is a much more Christian country than it is anything else. The example of which is the article that I've just written that is coming out next week in the Weekly Standard. Is about the dean of the Harvard Divinity School, on whose computer was found pornographic images. No children, nothing illegal, and it was just assumed, "This is so terrible, he must resign." I don't suspect that if he were at Hebrew University, the Harvard of Israel, in a similar capacity, that he would have been asked to resign. People would have said, "It's none of our business." You know, "Did he hurt anybody?" That would have been the question. Is the guy hurting anybody? No? So let's move on. We've got bigger problems to worry about. In Israel, which is not governed by Jewish law, of course, and I don't want to suggest for one nanosecond that it is, because if it were, and believe me, among Orthodox Jews, there wouldn't be a great acceptance of this either. Nevertheless, in Israel, which is permeated more by Judaism than The United States is, obviously. Uh, prostitution is largely legal. In the United States it is not, which is permeated far more by Christianity. So there are— it's a very interesting arena of difference. And those comments, uh, in the New Testament are quite severe. If a man divorces and takes another woman, he's committed adultery, because of course divorce is not recognized at least in a literal reading of the New Testament. Okay. Yeah. Well, in other words, whether or not, you know, that I— probably you could be arrested for, uh, for, um, pandering. Is that the word? Uh, when you are the, uh, when you run a bordello. But if you do it, it's legal to do it. I don't know if it's legal to run a prostitution ring. Okay? I just don't know the exact law. Prostitution, the act, is legal. Whether running or bordello is, I'm not sure. That's what I meant largely legal. I don't know to what extent you can run, you know, Hymies, 52 girls, sort of thing. Anyway, I don't want to take questions now because I'll never get to move on. Write them down, please. You know, a clarifying question is okay, like that one. Where I just said a comment and it wasn't clear. Now, let's go back to the problem of Webster's Dictionary. I gave you the Jewish and Christian issues, now back to Webster. Webster says, "It's voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and any other woman than his wife, and a married woman and any other man than her husband." Right? What's sexual intercourse? This is the Clintonian aspect that I promised you. What is sexual intercourse? According to— I looked that up too. This is what Webster's says. Webster's gives two definitions. Heterosexual intercourse: involving penetration of the vagina by the penis. That is the most obvious, well-known thing. That's the first thing we would think of when we say sexual intercourse. But they give a second definition: intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis. This, of course, was written in the last 3 months, but I— no, I'm kidding about that. I don't know when this was written, but it would be interesting, because it seems so incredibly germane to the national trauma that America went through went through. Again, let me read you the second definition: intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis. So it has to be genital contact. Now, believe it or not, so wondering, do I really know what, you know, what I assume to be normal, I even looked up genitals just to make sure I got that right. Everything is now up for grabs, no pun intended. It's Terrible. Anything is a pun. But what is— what are genitals? Now, the genitals are the reproductive, okay? It is vagina and penis. So therefore, touching breasts would not count as sexual intercourse by either definition, nor would touching the buttocks of either party, or the inner thigh, or any of those other things that that judge made were, you know, was quite, quite long list of parts of body that could be touched. This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom. So pretty much we have genital intercourse, okay, as our guiding definition, and it certainly would have been the biblical definition with regard to thou shalt not commit adultery, uh, that the Bible would not look, uh, happily upon a married person engaging in all forms of sexual play, except for genital touching, or except for intercourse itself, of course it wouldn't look favorably. But that would not be violating "Thou shalt not commit adultery." A major rabbinic figure, a rabbinic scholar, wrote in Jewish Week in New York, during the Clinton-Lewinsky matter, that he did not commit adultery by Jewish law. Major Orthodox rabbi. Orthodox. Okay? Which shows the complexity of even the word adultery. What actually is it? Is it emotional adultery? Is it psychological? Is it physical? What is it? And I'm not playing with words, and I'm certainly not a spokesman for the White House, but it is a very— that doesn't mean that it was good. The fact that it may not be adultery It is certainly betrayal of some sort, okay? But betrayal and adultery are not the same thing. And words are very important. That's all the human being has to elevate us into some clarity in life. Now I'll make it even tougher for you. I'm going to ask you a series of questions and give answers. They're not rhetorical. For you to contemplate and reject or accept my answers They are questions you have to deal with with regard to the subject of adultery. For example, are all levels of sexual intercourse— or better, because that is a loaded term— are all levels, or all aspects, or all forms of sexual touching adultery? That's a fair question. Is kissing. A married man kisses an unmarried woman, open-mouth kiss. Okay, I don't mean a peck on the cheek, how you doing. Is that adultery? Raise your hand if you think he committed adultery. I'm not going to call on you, so don't be afraid to raise your hands. Okay, all right, one man and 406 women. No, no, actually just a few women. So, well, raise your hand. I don't want to— I don't want you to be shy on this. I need— you're part of this. Raise your hand if you don't think he committed adultery. Okay, nearly all of you do not believe he committed adultery. Do all of you believe that he betrayed his wife? Okay, fine. So betrayal, and I agree. So, but so there is— if there's betrayal and there's adultery, and they're not the same thing at all. It's a very important point. And, okay, now what if he, um, okay, let's go further. He has put his hands all over her while she's clothed. You feel that that's adultery? Raise your hand. Do I get any takers on that one? Maybe a few more than on the open-mouth kissing. No, no, he stopped with— he started and stopped with that behavior. He did not continue beyond that. Is that adultery? Okay, raise your hand again if that's adultery. Oh, so all right, we don't have many takers. You feel it is? Okay, all right. Uh, next, are there levels of sin? And I don't mean this religiously. Let us use the term sin in a secular way. Everybody here, I assume, believes that adultery is a sin, right? I don't mean theologically. If you're an atheist, you could live with this. You with me? That it's wrong. You prefer that? Okay, it's wrong. Do we, however, believe that there are levels of wrongness to adultery? For example, would you say that that a one-night stand while on a business trip with a woman whose name he doesn't know is the same as a long affair with a woman at the office? Would any woman here— the men certainly won't. Would any woman here— men, I don't even have to ask the question. You're just rooting for the women to give the right answer. Would any woman here argue that it's a toss-up, it's irrelevant, the two are equally wrong? Equally wrong. A year-long affair with a woman at the office, a one-night stand with a woman whose name he doesn't know. Alright, so about 10 of you. Alright, women who think that they are not equally wrong, raise your hand. Alright, so that's pretty much a 4-to-1, 5-to-1 ratio. It seems to me, hmm? What's the reverse mean? Huh? Oh, well, okay, I am going to come to the woman issue, absolutely. But I'm going to do it in a roundabout way, you'll see. Then again, of course, how about this? I got a question for women. Would you prefer your husband Here are two choices. They're lousy choices, I admit it. Okay? Your husband— but only to make the point that life is complex, and so is all matters of sex, and we need to think these things through. It's the only reason I'm doing this. It's not at all a game. Your husband has open-mouth kisses with a woman. Or a protected sex endeavor with no kissing with an escort service girl? Okay, you don't have to worry about AIDS. It's all protected, so get that out of your brains as an issue. I'm just talking on your emotional and psychological level. Open-mouth kiss with a woman he knows, or a one-night stand with no kissing Protected sex escort service. Harry's Blondes in Dayton, Ohio. Okay, open-mouth kissing worse, raise your hand. All right, one night, fine, fair enough. No, no, no, it's open-mouth with a woman he knows, a woman he knows. Okay, that's a That's all right. Do we want to vote or you just want to get the point? You want to vote? Okay, fine. The worst is the open-mouth kiss with the woman he knows. Raise your hand. Only women, please. Right. The worst is the one-night stand, no kissing, with the escort service girl. All right. Third choice, equal. Okay, we got pretty much even votes and the equal came in. So listen to that. Isn't that— all right. So here you go. It shows you already. The vast majority of women in this group, who span religions, who span backgrounds, who span age groups— there must be 6 decades' difference of women in this group— have overwhelmingly not said that sex was worse, was more serious. It was either equal to an open-mouth kiss and nothing else, or actually less worse, less bad. This gives you an idea of how— and this is correct, we are reacting, you're reacting to my mind very normally, and forgive me, and healthily. Because of course there are differences. Of course there are differences in our perceptions. I'm not talking about the issue of what is legally adultery. But in our perceptions of what is serious. Then there is the issue, is, uh, for those who, who believe— now, how many of you voted that a guy's hands all over the woman's body, if clothed, was adultery? Raise your hands again. Okay, okay, not many. How's this? Your husband goes for a lap dance. You know what a lap dance is? Okay, let me tell you. I read about it. This is what a lap dance is. I looked it up in Webster's. Lap dance. Which Webster? Which Webster? Hugh Webster. A woman is either unclothed or virtually unclothed, and she dances around your body and touches your body and wiggles her body all over you and sits on your lap unclothed. And this is a common thing at strip joints today in America and in Europe. Okay, now, no, no, hold on, I'll get to that point too. But she has been all over you with her nakedness. Is that adultery? Raise your hand if that's adultery. Come on, you voted that if he touches her clothes She's naked on his lap and it's not adultery? I will. That's the second question. I'm sorry. Oh, you don't think he's acting when she's on the lap? I mean, let's say, let's say his hands are tied behind him, right? But nevertheless, he has acted in that he has sought this. She didn't invade him. He went in voluntarily. How many women think that this man committed adultery? Oh, no, no, I'm just curious. So 5 women. Raise your hands. 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. You would call that adultery. My husband committed adultery. He went to a strip joint and had a lap dance. It's a very serious issue, you're saying. Adultery is the most serious thing your husband could do. And you would call that adultery? I'm just challenging you. I'm not, I'm not giving you— I don't want to give you a hard time. Are you with me? Okay. But the vast majority of women would not call that adultery. How many women here would be profoundly upset if their husband did that? How many women would not be profoundly upset if everything else was going hunky-dory in the marriage? Very interesting. This would be fascinating to have you women dialogue with each other. It would. It would be fascinating. It truly would. All right, now one added thing. Your question: during the lap dance, he touches her. Did he commit adultery? You got to raise your hand or I'm going to— I'm going to— I, I, I'm going to be totally confused. Oh yeah, over clothing, yes. Under clothing, no. Okay, he touches her during the lap dance, is that adultery? Raise your hand. Women only. Oh, very interesting. So you draw a distinction between what is like commercial venture, lark, and private with a woman. The vast majority of you women. I salute you, that's very interesting. It's going to increase lap dance business enormously when this tape gets out, but that's a separate issue. Men, I want to ask the men, do any of the men believe that in any of these instances the man has committed adultery? Okay. I have asked this question thus far to 4,800,026 men. Okay, this episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom. Next, I got more questions for you. Is this adultery? Okay. Man has a weekly lunch for an hour and a half with a woman at his— where he works, or works in his business, not necessarily the same office— where he pours out his soul and the most intimate details of his life to her. They do not kiss, they do not sexually touch. Did he commit adultery? No. Yeah. Okay, all right. One man feels that he did. Did— all right, none of the women do. All right, here is now then. Now I got you though, women. Now, but I'm going to totally trust that you're going to give me an honest answer. Would you prefer that your husband had a one-night stand at Harry's Blondes escort service protected. Okay, we'll get the AIDS issue away. Or weekly lunches where he poured out his soul to a woman that he worked with. Raise your hand for the one-night stand in Dayton. Anybody here from Dayton? Okay, fine. One-night stand in Dayton, women? Okay, I'll give you an equal too. Okay. Every week lunch pouring out his heart in the most intimate details of his life. You'd prefer that he did that? Huh?

I would cut out his heart.

You would cut out his heart. I didn't— the last thing I want to know is the punishments you would mete out at the guy. It would be too painful to stand here and hear this. I can't even— it would surpass all the violence I have seen in movies. So I understand that. Nobody— so no woman here would vote, "I would prefer the weekly lunch." Okay, here we go. So very, very few. 4 of you, 5. You have very interesting things. Are you dating her? Yeah, okay, just— okay. The vast majority of women— again, by the way, I want you to understand, I am in total sync with the way the majority women's votes are going, because it makes sense. Now, because it seems to me, obviously we don't want either, of course not, but life doesn't present us always with perfect versus imperfect, but various levels of imperfection. In any event, and these choices are theoretical, obviously, although they all have taken place in real life, to me there is no question But that pouring his heart out is a greater distancing than a one-night stand in Dayton. As a man, I could say that to you. And I didn't have a one-night stand in Dayton. But it seems to me— Hmm? What'd you say? Cleveland? That was not right. That was not right. She's a character, this one, I tell you. But she applauded, and I can take anything. Absolutely. No, no, that— a man, remember, I have given this course in logical sequence. If male sexuality is as I described it, and there were very few dissenting views on it, there were none, then he can have a one-night stand somewhere where it is truly masturbatory. It is of no consequence to him. But of course it's of consequence pouring his heart out to a woman at lunch. Of course it is. And then he comes home and he doesn't pour his heart out because he's not going to pour his heart out to two women. I mean, that's just obviously— it would seem to me there's no question this is not a defense of the one-night stand in Ohio. It is, it is a statement though that when it comes to real life and what threatens marriage, maybe we should rethink certain things and not have instinct. Women— and that brings me— all of this was meant to bring to a point. Here is the point: what do you do if your partner does commit adultery? The answer is, it depends. That's the only answer. The answer, I would divorce him immediately, I would throw him out of my home and out of my life, deprive my children of a father and deprive me of 15 years or whatever years that I have invested in this human being is just ego silly. I'm so hurt, I'm so angry, my ego is so affected, I will throw him out. My bottom line is, how do people act in real life? Not just the interesting— and it is interesting— theories about sex. I, and I believe this for a man every bit as much as I believe this for a woman. A man who says, "If my wife cheated on me, I would divorce," is as foolish in my belief as a woman who says it. I have zero difference. What is good for the goose is good for the gander, I have always believed. I never liked the dual standards that they had. If he slept around, he was a hero. If she did, she was a slut. I never bought that when I was single, I just have to tell you, and I'm hardly a feminist. I do believe in human equality, though, but that's a— well, not a separate issue, that is the issue. But in any event, although I still believe there is a difference between male adultery and female adultery in its potential significance, which is something I'll come to in a minute, but I want to address specifically this issue of what do you do if your partner has sexually strayed? I would be much more worried if I were a woman if my husband had those weekly lunches, to give just the example we gave. You pour your heart out to her? I wanted to be your best friend, your confidant. That's why we married. So he lost his head on a business trip is very different than a regular meeting with another woman, so it would seem to me, And it would seem to me as a man, okay? It would seem to me too. Though women don't work like that. They don't call up Harry's Gorgeous Guys when they go to date. It doesn't work the same way, which brings me to my other point. And that is, is it the same when a man strays and a woman does? And the answer is, it depends. It absolutely depends. It depends on why. But here is what I will say. There are two reasons men do. There's one reason a woman does. That's the difference. And it's a big difference, and it's critical to know this. I have never known— I'm sure it exists, okay? Everything exists. But in all my radio talk to people about these issues, in all my interviewing of people, in all my writings, I have never come across— doesn't mean— I'm sure it exists, but I never came across a woman who was happily married, in love with her husband, a normal physical life with him as well, who, however, on a business trip was overcome by gorgeous legs on a man and just had to have him. I'm sure it has happened, but Yes, that's correct. Yeah, that's correct. It all happens there. None of these rules apply. You poor thing, you don't even have an Australian accent. Oh, you do have one, you partially— south of the equator, it's inverted. It's all inverted. This has been Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Visit DennisPrager.com for thousands thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles.

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