Timeless Wisdom: Religion On The Line - Talking Religion with Hugh Hewitt

Welcome to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Hear thousands of hours of Dennis' lectures, courses, and classic radio programs. And to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to DennisPrager.com.

Good evening everyone, and welcome to Religion on the Line 2011 with Dennis Prager and Hugh Hewitt. Religion on the Line is an interfaith dialogue that is put on by 99.5 FM KKLA and our sister station 870 AM KRLA here in Los Angeles. I'm Frank Pastore, and I'm host of the Frank Pastore Show, heard weekday afternoons here in Los Angeles on 99.5 FM. It is the intersection of faith and reason, and as a former atheist for 27 years, I came to faith while pitching for the Cincinnati Reds way back in 1984. And today, after a journey that has taken me through 2 master's degrees and A long wandering course, I now find myself and God has placed me to have the privilege of hosting the most listened to Christian talk show in America again here in Los Angeles weekday afternoons. I hope you'll give a listen. I wish I could be there tonight. I remember doing the Dennis Prager event. He and I did the Religion on the Line last year and it was a sellout crowd and I'm sure it's a sellout crowd there this evening. And Dennis and I had a wonderful conversation about not only the differences but also the similarities between Christianity Christianity and Judaism. And I'm sure that Dennis and Hugh will do a marvelous job there this evening. Now, I wish that I could be there, but I can't. I'm actually in Nashville receiving the prestigious 2011 National Religious Broadcasters Talk Show of the Year Award again, and this is for our second time. But of course, Dennis and Hugh are not winning such an award, and so they can be there with you this evening. Now, before I go to introduce my friend Hugh Hewitt, there are some sponsors we want to thank who have made this evening possible. Roger Stewart Clothes, the Masters College, Phil Liberatore, the IRS Problem Solver, Garbedian Wealth, YMT Vacations, and Robert Mykon and Bill O'Connor, the money guys from Applied Financial Planning. And make sure to visit their table this evening and register for a drawing for an autographed copy of one of Hugh's or Dennis's books. Now for my friend Hugh Hewitt. Hugh is a lawyer He's a law professor. He's an author with over a dozen books, including two New York Times bestsellers. His columns appear not only in the best newspapers in America, but also on the very best websites. He has been a law professor over at Chapman University School of Law since its founding. And oh yeah, he has this little nationally syndicated radio show called The Hugh Hewitt Program, which is heard in over 120 cities in America. And it is an honor to have hosted for both Hugh and Dennis Prager several times. I consider them my friends. Now, one thing you need to know about Hugh, other than HughHewitt.com, his world-famous blog, you need to know about what his passions are. Now, Hugh is very passionate about the Cleveland Browns, the University of Michigan, Notre Dame, and Ohio State, and the Cleveland Indians. Now, here's the problem though, and those of you that are regular listeners to the Hugh Hewitt Show who have been listening to Geno Lisimo encourage Hugh about this. Hugh has just recently completed his therapy for jockophobia. He is now willing to face and confront his fears of actually meeting Major League Baseball players in a Major League clubhouse. And it's wonderful news to me because I tried to take him into a clubhouse several years ago, and of course that was the onset of the dreaded jockophobia. But Hugh, congratulations. You are now past that. Ladies and gentlemen, won't you please join me in welcoming Morning Glory and Evening Grace America, Hugh Hewitt.

Hugh, take it away. This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Still going, brought down at the 50. Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for coming tonight. Thank you, Frank Pastore, for, as always, wonderful— Frank and I have been working together for a number of years. It's always great to have any association with him. Thanks for all the KRLA listeners here. My partner in crime tonight needs absolutely no introduction. Other than I count him among the best men I know and one of my closest friends. Please welcome Dennis Prager.

Dennis.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the first ever Ask a Jew. Now, when Dennis and I conceived this program, Ask a Jew, over a year ago, we did so because we spend a lot of time together. That's actually been in— that's mine.

I know, I took it.

That's yours. No, I just— see, he broke in already.

This is—

but we have spent a lot of time together in green rooms. And green rooms, those conversations have turned almost inevitably from whatever we were supposed to be talking about to matters of faith. Now, I believe before you are the two people who have spent more time on broadcast air talking seriously about matters of faith than any other two broadcast journalists in America. I, I believe that we have both have a passion for this, and it goes back for a long time. But tonight, I'm not answering any questions. I'm asking Dennis the questions that go back to the days when I was working for PBS and Searching for God in America. And probing what he really believes about matters of faith. And I'll tell you, the fact that this sold out tells me that this is a subject on which there is limitless interest. So tonight I'm asking Dennis, as one of the most scholarly and learned Jews I know, the questions that many Christians, non-believers have. But at the very beginning, I'd like a show of hands. How many Jews do we have tonight with us? How many Roman Catholics do we have tonight? How many evangelicals? How many atheists? One? How many Mormons do we have tonight? Some of the LDS. And how many other— would include Muslims and Hindus— how many others? It's a very diverse crowd, which is fascinating to me. So my very first question, Dennis Prager: Who is a Jew?

That's probably going to be the easiest one to answer, knowing you. And thank you all for coming. And I just want to say, did you want to say a word about the ambivalence about the title, or should I?

I will get to that.

Okay, then I won't say anything. First of all, I'm very pleased to see all of you, and about 700 of you, and that's all the room can fit. We're both very touched that you came, and I think it's an important venture, and I completely trust my good friend Hugh to ruin my day. I just— but I do— both are true. I trust you completely, and you will ruin my day. Who is a Jew is actually a problem for Jews as well as non-Jews, because although there is a very simple answer, it's in practice, it's not so simple. A Jew is one who is born a Jew, and I'll define that in a moment, or one who converts to Judaism. That's the simple answer. The reason that it's complex, and this alone could take a long time, and I don't want to, there's other issues that I'd rather take more time on, but I'll tell you why it is complex. On the one hand, it's rare today where religion is an affirmation of faith that one can be born one. You're not born a Christian. You affirm it. You are born a Jew like you're born an American. It's a peoplehood as well as a religion. And it's always been that way. In the Bible, it's Am Yisrael, the people or nation of Israel. And there was no word— in fact, the only time the Hebrew word for religion is used is in the book of Esther by the villain Haman, who wants to destroy the Jews, and he says they are not like other religions. So it's the only time in the Hebrew Bible that the word religion applied to Jews is used. So it's a people with a certain faith. But you can convert to this people. You can't convert to being Chinese. You just can't. You're born Chinese. So you can convert as well as the famous Book of Ruth, where you have a great example: "Your people are my people, your God is my God." The problems arise this way. First of all, who's born? You know, what if you're born to a Jewish father and not a Jewish mother? Than according to rabbinic Jewish law, and rabbinic law prevails for the last at least 2,000 years. While in the Bible it was determined by the father, the rabbis determined it by the mother because they were certain who the mother was, and pre-DNA they were not certain who the father was. And that's the reason the mother came to be the determining element on who was born a Jew. The Reform movement in Judaism said we will also include fathers. Uh, which makes sense in the light of Jewish history now that we have DNA. But, uh, Jewish law doesn't really change much, and so, uh, they're the only ones who change that definition. And as regards conversion, that's the other obstacle within Jewish life. The Orthodox do not accept non-Orthodox conversions. And so—

Explain that a little bit, Dennis.

There are three major denominations: Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox. You'll surely ask me what I am, so I'll wait to answer that when Hugh asks me. But the Orthodox have a very rigid— and I don't say that as a negative, it's just they do— they have a rigid set of criteria for who can be accepted as a Jew. You must, among other things, not only study for a while, you must promise that you will observe Orthodox ritual law. Kosher home, kosher outside the home, not to drive on the Sabbath, and you'll send your children to an Orthodox Jewish school, a whole host of things. The Conservative and Reform do not make such demands on converts, and so the Orthodox don't accept the others. The only reason that matters is that the Orthodox control such matters as the Law of Return in Israel, which says any Jew can become a citizen of Israel upon arrival in Israel. But if the Jew is converted in America or Argentina by a non-Orthodox rabbi, then the, then the rabbinate in Israel may not accept that person as a Jew. And that's where the issues arise. Within Judaism.

Now, Dennis, most every denomination in the world seeks converts. They proselytize. Jews don't. Or am I wrong about that? And if I'm right about it, why not?

You are right about it de facto in the last 2,000 years. This will come as a surprise to two groups here: non-Jews and Jews. And that is that Jews did proselytize very vigorously prior to Jesus. In fact, so much so the New Testament bears testimony to this. Paul says that the Jews would sail oceans to find one convert, cross continents and sail seas to find one convert. One-tenth of the Roman Empire was Jewish at the time of Jesus. That's a lot of people. And that was because Jews did say, hey, How would you like to try out the Sabbath? We got a good thing going here. And, and they did. But, but here is the very big reason for difference between Jewish and Christian proselytizing. Two big, big differences. Number one, Judaism never held that you had to be Jewish to go to heaven. Judaism always held that God judges solely by the ethical conduct of a human being. You could be a pagan or an atheist and get into heaven according to Jewish doctrine. And that was— that's one of the handful of doctrines that's never changed. In fact, it's harder for a Jew to get into heaven than a non-Jew because a Jew has to do hundreds and hundreds of laws according to Judaism or traditional Judaism, whereas a non-Jew just has to observe 7 basic moral laws. You know, like not sleeping with your grandmother. These are real toughies. And, you know, and you guys get in. You know, I—

Stop, okay.

This is—

My outline's shot to hell already, but I'm gonna go with it. Far down my outline, I want the Jewish understanding of heaven, but I want to preface this. How many of you believe that Jews don't believe in heaven? Generally, I find many Christians who believe that Jews don't believe in heaven. What is the Jewish conception?

You have a very good right. I'm surprised that so few hands went up because, uh, one of the givens among Jews is that, oh, we don't believe in heaven and hell. Now, you— this is critical. You must always, whether you're a Jew or, or not, Distinguish between Jews and Judaism. Most Jews don't believe in an afterlife. Judaism does. Jews in Judaism have very many conflicting beliefs. This is one of them. In fact, if you open up the Encyclopedia Judaica, which is a secular, secular scholarly work about Judaism, and you go to the entry called afterlife, the first sentence reads Judaism has always affirmed the existence of an afterlife.

Always.

What's it like?

Well, I'll give you the funny one and then the serious one. The funny one is I asked my rabbi this in yeshiva. I went to yeshiva till I was 18. Yeshiva is Orthodox Talmudic academy where you learn all your work in Hebrew, so I am fluent in not only in Hebrew, but in biblical Hebrew. And that's why I teach the Torah from Hebrew, but in English. And so it was a very thorough grounding I got till the age of 18. And about the 5th grade, I asked the rabbi, I said, Rabbi, what is heaven like? We don't have heaven so much as olam haba, the hereafter, the next world. And he said, well, if you If you are good and a good Jew, you go to Olam Haba and you study Torah for eternity. I can't tell you the nightmares that that guy gave me. I remember thinking, this is 5th grade, gee, what's the alternative? Because I remember thinking Is it with him? So that was not a pleasant— maybe that's why most Jews rejected the hereafter. They got the same answer. The greatest Jewish philosopher, Maimonides, 12th century, 11th century, said there were 13 basic principles of Judaism. And one of them is that God rewards the good and punishes the bad. A Jew who rejects heaven and hell rejects a basic Jewish notion that there is a just universe. It's mind-boggling to me that— I mean, a Jewish atheist, I fully understand, would reject the idea. But why any Jew who believes that there is a God would reject the notion that Hitler and his victims have different fates. Is mind-boggling to me.

What do you understand the details at all?

Zero. I, I, and I'm, I'm one of the handful of people I know who firmly believes in an afterlife who never speculate. Well, not never. I, I really may— I really want to be with, with loved ones. That would be a bummer to me to think that, you know, my soul goes there but the people I've loved here don't— I'm not with. But beyond that, I have zero speculation. It's, it's, you know, speculating anything about God is like my dog speculating about me.

Does, does Dennis Prager or any mainstream branch of Judaism believe in the resurrection of the body?

Yes, it is in fact also one of the 13 principles, the resurrection, and it is stated 4 times in the most solemn prayer of Judaism called the Amidah. 4 times in the first few paragraphs, reference to God resurrecting the dead. Modern Jews have been intoxicated by science and by secularism, so they're embarrassed by these references. I am not.

Now, by the way, people are saying, how are you going to do this? And I said, the analogy I'm using for tonight Think of Secretariat and Shoemaker. Secretariat, Shoemaker.

I don't get it. I really have no chance if he decides to run one direction or the other. None.

So I'm gonna do my best.

Oh, that's a sporting reference. You like the sporting gene.

All right, Dennis, um, how old— this very serious question, man. You may even have to think about it.

Billy Shoemaker and Secretariat. Okay. Let me just say something. You now saw in action a principle that I learned, a good one, in Jewish elementary school. And I've said this on the air. We were taught to memorize certain principles of life. One of them was, "The easily embarrassed don't learn anything." I'm translating from Hebrew, "Lo habaishan lo med." The easily embarrassed don't learn anything. So I learned not to be easily embarrassed. So here I am in front of 700 people showing I'm ignorant. But if I weren't willing to do that, I wouldn't have thought it through and learned. And the same with languages. I'm totally prepared to sound goofy in a foreign language, but now I've learned a lot of foreign languages.

Dennis and I both agree on the radio, the safest thing is to say "I don't know" when we do not know.

Yes, exactly. Nobody thinks less of you. They laugh at you, but they don't think less of you.

I wanted to point out— My producer, Dwayne, is here. Stand up for a second, Dwayne, would you?

Wow, Dwayne.

Now, Dennis's producer is not here, right? But Dennis's wife is here. Susan, where are you? Sue, stand up and let us say hello and greetings. And the fetching Mrs. Hewitt is unfortunately up north, so she's not. So I get a producer.

You bring your producer, I bring my wife. You won. I win. I do.

Yeah. Now, this is a very serious question, and I want I want you to think about it. I don't know if you've been asked this before. I hope I ask you a few things you haven't been asked before. When did you first become aware of the Holocaust?

And what did it mean to you? How did it impact you? I do remember, actually. It's amazing you should ask. I don't think I've ever mentioned this in public. I mean, not that I wouldn't, but it's never been raised. How many of you, I'll bet many of you remember the Sunday night television show called The 20th Century with Walter Cronkite, right? Many of you do. I learned a lot of history from that show. And I'll never forget sitting in the living room watching it with my parents. So I would say I was in about 6th grade. And they had Hitler, they showed video of Hitler. And I said, "Who's he?" And they said, "Oh, he was a terrible man and he killed 6 million Jews." And I just remember I must have paled. In other words, it hit me what I just heard. And I will say that it never ceased. There isn't a day, and this, I don't know if this is a Jew-Gentile divide, and it's not a bad thing at all. Armenians think about what happened to them far more than non-Armenians do, so I would fully understand that Jews would think about it more. But I would say that since that day to this day, there isn't a moment— or not a moment, excuse me— there isn't a day that I don't have some thought about the Holocaust. And I am third-generation American, I lost no relatives. And yet, it had a very transformative effect on me, but not a provincial one. Not, "They're all out to get the Jews." Rather, "Humanity stinks." And that's why I'm so concerned about preserving the memory of the Cambodian Holocaust. And nobody— most people don't even know about it, let alone give a damn about it. But I do. That's one of the big reasons I went to Cambodia 2 weeks ago. And so, it just, it, you know, when it snowed, I thought of Jews walking barefoot in the snow, you know, in the camps. I mean, whatever would happen, I would think of the camps.

So, Dennis, when did, it's a 2-part question. Why do so many people hate the Jews with such passion? And what does that do to someone like you, an intellectual living the life of the mind, realizing that there are people out there who've never met you who just hate you by virtue of who you are?

Not to mention those who did meet me and hate me. Well, that's another category. They're mostly Jewish. The ones who never met me and hate me are non-Jews, and the ones who met me and hate me are Jews. Just a little dark humor. There are Jews who like me. Okay. Anyway, it was such an important question that my second book is titled "Why the Jews?" Exactly what you asked, "Why the Jews?" I commend it to your attention even if you're not a Jew, because it's a very important issue, and because I also believe anti-Americanism has many of the same foundations as anti-Semitism. In a nutshell, what it did over the course of time was convince me that the Jews really are the chosen people, and I believe that that is the ultimate source of Jew hatred. It's such a sensitive subject among Jews that Jews don't talk about it. And Jews who do talk about it like to reject it. They say, "Oh, it's provincial, it's chauvinistic, it's—" And anyway, it's gonna— if you just— Dennis, if you say it publicly, it's just gonna cause antisemitism. But here's the interesting thing. And I make this point in lectures to Jews all the time. Does anybody hate the Japanese for thinking that they're chosen? The Japanese have a sun on their flag because they believe they get the sun before the rest of humanity. Nobody hates the Japanese for that. Anybody hate the Chinese for thinking that they're the center of the world? China in Chinese means middle kingdom, middle of the world, and the non-Chinese are are a notch below Chinese. The Greeks thought they were superior. By the way, Jews never thought they were superior. That's the irony. Chosenness never meant superiority. And the Torah goes out of its way to say you weren't chosen because you're any better than anybody else. In fact, you're worse than everybody else. The reason you're chosen is to show the power of the Torah to elevate a bunch of jerks. That's the whole point. If the Jews succeed, nobody could say it was innate. 'Cause we were just a bunch of slaves leaving Egypt, cultureless and stupid. And if this people influences the world, it has to be the Torah and God, not innate Jewish ability. And so, I am convinced that the hatred emanates— the preoccupation with Jews is irrational, absolutely irrational. We should— we are— Israel is as big as El Salvador. If the world were preoccupied with El Salvador, you'd say something's going on there. There was very special people. The very fact that the most powerful nations in history wanted to destroy us says to me there's something going on, and there really is something going on. So that's what I ultimately—

on a personal level, did it impact you at all?

No, because No, because I'm an American too. And I trust America tremendously. I, my grandfather, who came from Europe, said, like all the Jews who came from Europe, scratch a goy— goy is not a pejorative, by the way, it's just the word for non-Jew, means nation. Literally. Scratch a goy and you get an antisemite. This was said by Jews from Europe all the time, because if you scratched a European, you did get an antisemite. They had every reason to believe that. Europe was saturated with Jew hatred, but America was not. And so he didn't, he couldn't tell the difference. A goy is a goy is a goy. A non-Jew is a non-Jew is a non-Jew. And I'll never forget One rabbi from the old country knew I was going to be speaking to non-Jews on a panel with Christians, I think it was, and he said, "Dennis, when they ask you what is it that Jews most want, just answer, 'Not to be killed.'" That was very important. That was a very important statement that he made. And by the way, I resonate to that. There is something to be said about that. But an American Jew taking America seriously has a different worldview than a Jew anywhere else. Jews everywhere else walk around thinking they better not be too loud, not be too Jewish, not be this, not be that. I'll never forget in Waco, Texas, not a Jewish center. I went to give a speech in rural Texas at a retreat. I took my older son, who is Orthodox—I'm not, he is—and always was, or nearly always was, and he wore a yarmulke, skullcap. So we went to a—I think it was a Dairy Queen, yeah—outside of Waco. To get him an ice cream cone. So the young woman serving said, "What's that?" pointing to my son's yarmulke. He said, "Oh, we're Jewish and that's what we wear." And she looked at him and said, "God bless you, young man. You always wear that." That's in Waco, Texas, in a Dairy Queen. You don't get that reaction in Marseille or Brussels Or Athens.

But that brings us, brings us to the title of tonight, Ask a Jew. I'm fairly exercised with my affiliate, Dennis Prager affiliate here, KRLA, because they wouldn't use Ask a Jew in their advertising. I talked about it with Dennis all the time. You didn't see it in the video. You won't see it back there. Fairly exercised about this because we're going to take this on the road. We're going to do this. I could do this with Dennis again and again and again. But the reason I called it Ask a Jew Is because antisemitism is returning to the United States. It is flourishing in Europe. And if you can't name it, you can't kill it. And Dennis, why do you think people are even afraid to say, "Ask a Jew," or use the term "Jew"?

Well, that's the thing. People are afraid to use the word "Jew." That's why they'll always say, "He's Jewish." You don't say, "He's Christian." You say, "He's a Christian." "He's a Muslim." "He's a Buddhist." He— but with Jews, it's the use of the adjective. They even to the point of say, people will say Jewish persons. You ever hear Christian persons? What's a Christian person? Oh, but Jewish person, oh, that's perfectly usable and it's used widely. There is a— the word Jew is so emotion and passion laden written and was used so much by anti-Semites as a pejorative that people feel sensitive— non-Jews feel sensitive about using the term.

That's the reason. And because of that, we've developed an almost, I think, extraordinary tolerance for borderline anti-Semitism in our popular culture. Where do you think anti-Semitism is in the United States today?

This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom. Well, here is where I wonder, am I out of it? Because I don't see much of it. What I do see, and I tell Jewish audiences about this a great deal, is of course Israel hatred, which is to my mind not easily distinguishable from aspects of antisemitism. If the only country on earth you think is illegitimate is the only Jewish country, you better make a damn good case that you're not a Jew-hater. Because even if you don't think you are, in reality— I mean, if somebody were to say, "All nations on Earth have a right to exist except Italy, and I think Italy should be destroyed, but I love Italians." Okay, so why don't people laugh when people at the university say, yes, Israel does not deserve to exist, but I love Jews. It's a lie. It's a scummy lie, and it's a genocidal lie. Uh, but there is one place where it's believed: the university, which is the most morally confused institution in the United States of America and in the Western world.

I'll come back again to this, but I want to work around from a different way. Do you, Dennis Prager, actually believe there was a guy named Moses who actually stood in front of Pharaoh and led X number of Jews out of Egypt, stopped around the desert for 40 years, went up Sinai, got tablets? Do you actually believe that, or is it a good story to unify a desert people?

I do believe it, and I'll tell you why I believe it. It's a, it's a one of my many, many lectures on, available through my website, why I believe the Torah is divine. And here is my biggest single argument for the Torah being true. No one has ever made up an ignoble history of its people. The Jews of the Torah are very unimpressive. First of all, no people ever made up, "Oh, our ancestors were losers." Nobody. Slaves, nothings. The heroes of the Torah— the Torah are the first 5 books of the Bible, and they have a special divine imprimatur in traditional Judaism that the rest of the Bible does not have. And the the notion of making up a history that is this unimpressive. And again, in that book, the non-Jews come out often more heroic. I'll just give you a few examples. First of all, Noah is not Jewish and is one of only two characters in the entire Torah described as a tzaddik. Tzaddik is the highest Jewish appellation. A completely, or not completely, but tremendously righteous person. Adjective or noun? Uh, he is a tzaddik, therefore it's a noun. So, uh, Noah was called one, and that's a non-Jew, and Joseph, who is a Jew, was called one. So there are only two. Uh, the heroine of the entire Exodus story is a non-Jew, the daughter of Pharaoh. She's not only the heroine, she makes the story possible. If she doesn't save Moses— and it shows you as well how the Torah goes out of its way not to have Jews hate Egyptians. Moses himself is saved by the daughter, an Egyptian daughter of the genocidal Pharaoh. The Jethro, the priest, Midianite priest. Without him, Moses can't do anything. He's the father-in-law of Moses. He's a Midianite priest. He's not Jewish. And who were the villains who snitches on Moses, for which reason he has to leave and flee from Pharaoh? Jews who saw him kill the taskmaster. This notion— there is no— I have to say, there is no parallel that the people of their own book look so bad. Christians look pretty good in the New Testament. Hindus look pretty good in the Bhagavad Gita. Muslims look wonderful in the Quran. And Jews look awful in our own Bible. And that tells me it's true. Okay?

There's true and there's true. So I'm asking you, are you a literalist when it comes to Talmud?

Am I a literalist when it comes to Talmud?

That, you know, that was 40 years. It was the Ten Commandments on stone, that the words that—

yeah, yeah, I don't see why not. I am— I'm not a literalist on the Garden of Eden story or with the 6 days of creation.

All right, I'm going to come back to those because we've talked about— where did then— a lot of people want us to, and we have plenty of time, and we're going to get to what you understand about Jesus, right, Christianity. But then where did Where did the God of Torah go in the last few thousand years? He was so ever-present in the Exodus and then occasionally present through the years of both Jerusalem and exile. Where did he go?

That's a toughie. Now you're going to get an answer you may not expect. My view of God has I hate the word evolved, because it— but it has evolved. And maybe devolved. I believe absolutely in God, just as I always did. But I— my answer to that question is essentially this: I think that God has said, look, I told you, oh man, how to lead a good life. If you wish to torture and rape and murder and commit genocide, I'm sorry, I gave you a recipe. You don't wish to follow it, you live with the consequences. I have nothing more to say. It's been said. And secondly, I think that God is like a parent. You intervene in your children's lives when they're young, constantly. You can't do that after a certain age. And you watch with great sadness if they screw up their lives. But you watch. A parent bailing their child out who's 40 is not a good thing. We, in our infancy, needed intervention regularly. We are now adults. What has God— let's say God came back. What is he going to say? Hey, I have no asterisks on the Ten Commandments. They're still applicable. What is he going to say? I, I don't think there would be a thing for him to add. Live like I told you to live. Spread the word. This is my annoyance with my fellow Jews. This is the essence of my annoyance. I just spoke to 600 Jews in Charlotte, North Carolina, last week. My speech title was "Jews are a Messenger Who Forgot Their Message." And our message is ethical monotheism. Spread the word that there is a God who demands goodness. And who judges all of humanity on their morality. That's our message. And that without God you can't make a good society. An individual atheist can be good, but a society won't.

Now, before we go much further, you said earlier that you have an unusual syncretic approach to Judaism. You have a different blend. Can you explain that for the benefit of everyone here so that they understand where you're coming from?

Okay, I'll do it as briefly as I can. I think I can do it briefly. The Orthodox Jew has the traditional Jewish belief that at Sinai Moses got the Torah, the written Torah, and an oral Torah. The oral Torah is contained in the book called the Talmud, and not all of the Talmud is the oral Torah, but it contains all of the oral Torah so that there are immense numbers of laws given to Moses to explicate the written law. So that how do you, how do you kill, how do you kosher slaughter an animal? It's not listed in the Torah. According to Orthodox belief, God gave that method to Moses at Sinai, who passed it to others, who passed it to others, who passed it down, and it was finally written 1,200 years later. In what became known as the Mishnah, which is the earlier part of the Talmud. The Conservative and Reform movement basically do not believe that anything was directly given by God, but rather it was all man-made. It might have been men who were on a higher level in many instances, But nevertheless, men or men and women. I fall between the cracks. I believe the Torah is divine, but I do not believe in a divine oral law. So I am in no man's land theologically in Jewish life. But I, and I have many, many reasons for why I have come to this belief. So that I am a non-Orthodox Jew who believes in the divinity of the Torah, and there are approximately 8 of us, and I know 6 of them.

And now that sets up, uh, I, as a follower of Jesus, I know that those of you who, like me, came with a stack of questions, they all fall into this "What does Dennis think of Jesus?" category. And I want to preface this with a little explanation why Dennis and I can talk about these things so easily. Dennis, I believe, is probably the most proselytized Jew in America.

And blessed.

And blessed for it. And possibly the world. And I'll tell you why. We are both privileged to work for Salem. Salem is— it's an extraordinary company founded by and operated by brothers-in-law who are devout, devout Christians. Christians and have lived their faith through their work. And almost everyone who works for the company is— they're not necessarily Christian, but they're people of goodwill. This is a character-based company. In fact, when you go back and find our advertisers, I made a list of them, like Roger Stewart Clothes.

You wearing a Roger Stewart suit tonight?

I am. Just checking.

And it's a beautiful suit. It is. They make great stuff.

Masters College, Applied Financial, Phil Liberatori has been a sponsor of ours for a long time, Garabedian Wealth. All of these people associate with us because our company is known for being extremely ethical, built on character. But it also means that from the top down, you'll find a lot of really smart theology people. Frank Pastore is just an example of one of our many hosts on the Christian side. We own Christian stations that exclusively program in the Christian market, as well as Christian music stations. And we have the News Talkers, of which Dennis Prager and I are part. We have many theologians on the air, we have many theologians off the air, and they all talk to Dennis. And many of them try to persuade Dennis he's so right about so much, you simply are a Christian, you don't even know it, Dennis. I'm sure you've heard that before, right? So tell us what you think of Jesus.

Well, this is the only really long answer I'm going to give and the only time I'm going to use notes. Since I knew this would be asked. No, you didn't know anything. No, I knew it. You didn't tell me it would be asked. All right, but come on, ask a Jew, what are you gonna do, how are you? Good to see you. What's the suit? Who made the suit? How much was it? Did you pay retail? I got a great story on that before we go on. You're going to love this. So I was at Phil— we weren't together. We had been together in Philadelphia for our great station there, WNTP. So there was a huge audience, 1,000 people in Philadelphia, and I got up and I said, I want to thank WNTP, 980 on your dial, and then they all yell out, 990. And I was very proud of my quip. I looked at them and said, and I'm a Jew and I can get it for you for 980. By the way, you know, there were Jews who'd be sensitive about that. If our reputation is that we get a good deal, what's so bad about that? What, non-Jews don't want a good deal? What are you, stupid? You know, thou shalt buy retail. Is that a Christological belief? All right, okay, anyway, just kidding around with you. All right, here it goes, folks. So are you asking why I don't believe in Jesus or what I do think of Jesus? That's not the the same question. Okay, what do I think of Jesus is, is almost unimportant. What, what's really important is the issue of why I, as a Jew, don't believe in Jesus the way Christian does.

Well, if you don't want to answer the question—

well, I don't. All right, why do I— what, what I think of Jesus, I think that he— I don't know what to think because as a Jew who does not regard the New Testament as divine only the Old Testament, and not every single part of it, but the Torah specifically, and where the prophets quote God directly. I don't know. I don't know if Jesus really did go around and say he was God. It's so difficult for me to believe any Jew would say that, because the strictures against ever having a divine man confluence are so deep in Judaism.

It's hard for me to believe he actually said Now, I want to, I want to hear your longer answer, but I preface with this. C.S. Lewis, for whom I'm sure many people here have a great affection, said if you read the Gospels and you believe them to be accurate accounts of the life of Jesus, you are left with three choices: either he is a liar, either he is a lunatic, or he is Lord. The liar, lunatic, or Lord option. Would you agree that if you read the Gospels as accurate history and he did say what he is said to have said, that you have to make one of those three choices?

I don't think— I never found that argument, and I love C.S. Lewis, I never found that terribly persuasive. Because humans who are touched by the divine, and he may well have been, see, I don't exclude that possibility. And I don't know what he said, that's the point. I don't know. I do know why Jews, if he did say that, would have said, said, this is inconceivable to us. No man can be God. We have no allowance for that in Judaism. And so they would have just said— maybe they would have said the guy's a lunatic, if in fact that's what they heard. I don't know what they said, but I do know that they didn't accept it. Obviously Jews overwhelmingly did not accept it. Let me begin at the end and then tell you, uh, what I want to tell you, because I did a lot of homework for this. The reason I did homework is that I very rarely talk about this. Now, I want to explain this. You've probably heard me say on the radio, I debate everything except theology, and that's the truth. So I, I don't bone up on this, my theological objections to the divinity or messiahship of Jesus. But I knew it would come up today, and I have no problem in answering And so I will address that. But let me go to a bottom line and then start with the answer, and I will try to be as brief as possible, but I have a number of notes. And it'll make you think, and the last thing I want to do is anything but just make you think. I really want you to do what my dream on radio is: clarity rather than agreement. At least you'll understand why it is that a Jew wouldn't. But let me just say how— then this really answers your first question, not so much how do I see Jesus as how do I see Christianity. Any movement that brings human beings to the God of Israel, I believe, is divine. So I am a Jew who believes in the divine role of Christianity properly done. I mean, there are terrible Christians in history. There are terrible everybodies in history. But properly done, and nobody has done it as well as America's Christians. Nobody. It's one of the many reasons I'm in love with America's Christians and in love with America. But bringing the world to the God of Israel and the Torah of Israel. You know what I tell Jews? I said, if you believed in the divinity You, my fellow Jews, if you believed in the divinity of the Torah as much as Christians did, the Messiah really would come. That's what I tell Jewish groups. I wish Jews believed in the Torah as much as Christians believe in the Torah. So we share a tremendous amount. We don't share the divinity and messiahship of Jesus. And by the way, that in and of itself is an important distinction. If all Christians said was Jesus was the Messiah, Jews would, would differ. But Jews have had a lot of beliefs that this one was a messiah or this one was a messiah. In 1666, one half of the Jewish people— half, far more than the Jews did in time of Jesus— believed that a guy named Sabbatai Zevi, a Turkish Jew, was the Messiah. Jews have believed in messiahs all through Jewish history, so that's not a big deal. It's the divinity of Jesus that's the real issue. But I will, I will— okay, let me, let me very quickly go through a few things. No, and not in order of importance, but number one, nothing changed. Judaism has a clear belief that if the Messiah comes, the world changes. Not comes a second time. When he comes the first time and only time, the world didn't change. Hearts of many men changed, but the world is racked with evil. And there's a whole list of things that are expected, including world peace, including Israel back in its biblical borders and governed by a good king, and, and so on and so forth. Next. Uh, yeah, the entire moral underpinning of Jewish scripture is undermined by the belief that faith rather than works gets you saved. The essence of the Jewish message is that God first and foremost judges behavior of Jews and non-Jews, so that a Jewish agnostic who was a good person, or a non-Jewish agnostic, has a far better chance of getting into heaven than a person who was a firm believer and who was a bad person. To which the Christian answer is, if you're a bad person, then you're not really a believer. Okay, that's fine. But, but, oh, but ironically, the Christian is almost agreeing with the Jew then that behavior is the determinant. I know theologically say no, it's grace, and it's, it's not true, it's faith. But if you can't get in with bad behavior no matter what your faith is, then behavior is central to you too. And here's another thing: I don't believe that Jesus believed that you got into heaven through faith alone. Uh, and, uh, the, the, uh, the proof is the story in Matthew with the sheep and, and the goats, where he says those who have fed the poor and clothed the naked and so on, they will be the ones that the Father judges. To get into heaven. He doesn't say the ones who believe in me, the ones who did good deeds. That's Jesus himself in Matthew. That's speaking like a Jew. Next, there was no concept of human sacrifice as atonement for sin in, in Judaism. Jews would have recoiled at the idea that a human can be sacrificed as, as atonement.

What about the the story of Isaac and Abraham?

Well, that's the story that proves God doesn't want human sacrifice. It's not foreshadowing?

A Christian would say that that's foreshadowing the ultimate sacrifice of the Son.

And that's fine with me, but, but if you read the story, the very first verb in the story is, 'And God tested Abraham.' So God is letting you know at the beginning of the story He doesn't want this. This is a test of Abraham's faith, not a desire to see human sacrifice.

Side note on that: do Jews believe in God testing men and women that way today, that he'll intervene directly in their lives to put things, obstacles in his way to test them? Because that gets our atheist friends really crazy, drives Hitchens nuts.

It drives Hitchens nuts.

Oh, you've got a God that plays with people, who dances you like a puppet.

I don't like it either, I have to admit. God might do it, and who— I don't know what God does. It's a great Hebrew phrase, in Hebrew it's 3 words: "Lu yadati v'ayiti." If I knew him, I'd be him. And I love that one, and I'm not him, so I don't know him. Him. Maybe he does. I find that I, I am closer— I hate to say this— to Hitchens on this than to some others. Maybe God does it, but in the case of Abraham, this is the first monotheist. It makes perfect sense he would test him. But I will take away so-and-so's child to test what? Test how much they love me? I, I can't imagine God doing that.

So is God in control of everything or not, in your understanding?

God is in control of everything, but he allows everything too. So that— are they both— are they mutually contradictory? It depends what control means. If it weren't for God, the world would, would disintegrate in a nanosecond. God's will keeps things going, in my opinion. But, uh, does God determine— how could God determine whether I will be a decent human being, whether I will lie on my radio show or tell the truth, and then punish me for what he had me do? Then God is unjust. And to the Torah's great credit, It's one of the reasons I'm in love with it. The very first Jew, the very first monotheist, fights God. Remember, the word Israel means fight with God. It's in Genesis, after Jacob wrestles the angel, and the word Israel means to fight with God, to struggle with God. I love that. It's very liberating. And so, shall I continue? Okay, as for the argument that only blood atones for sins, I have two responses. First, it's not true. In the Torah, you can bring a grain sacrifice. You do not have to bring an animal sacrifice. In Leviticus, check it out, if you don't have the money for an animal, you bring grain. So the issue was sacrifice, not blood. Secondly, the sacrifices only atoned for ritual sins—violating the Sabbath, violating a Jewish holy day—not for any ethical infraction, not for stealing, not for murder, nothing. Now, since only Jews are, according to Christianity, only Jews have to observe the ritual laws of the Torah, then in that case, the sacrifices only apply to Jews because they only atone for sins that only Jews can commit. So you can't have it both ways. Either Christians should be keeping kosher and atoning for eating ham, or it's not applicable, the sacrificial system.

So how do you account, as a scholar— and Dennis, I didn't even give his credentials, you all know that, you're here because you know Dennis, his credentials— as a scholar, how do you account for the extraordinary rise of Christianity? And, you know, the Christians will say that's the Holy Spirit sweeping forward. How would you respond?

Well, I have two heretical responses. One is heresy vis-à-vis Jews, and the other is heresy vis-à-vis Christians. Which do you want first? The heresy vis-à-vis Jews is: I regard the rise of Christianity in large measure a reaction against the legalism of Judaism. I share that critique. That's why I am Torah-based rather than oral law. There are too many laws. I tell this to Jewish groups, I tell it to Orthodox groups. They don't all invite me, but they all respect me. I will say, to their credit. By the way, the Orthodox invited me to their West Coast convention to speak on why I'm not Orthodox. To their great credit, the Orthodox are far more open-minded. Than the liberal denominations of Judaism. Reform would never invite me to speak on why I'm not Reform. By the way, the irony is I've been attending a Reform synagogue for 20 years and they still wouldn't invite me. My synagogue does, but the movement wouldn't. Because the movement— oh, they wouldn't have me on why I'm not a liberal, that's it. Anyway, and the heresy vis-à-vis Christians is I— and this I don't know the answer, but clearly one reason for the rise of Christianity was that it was made the state religion of Rome. I mean, that was a very big deal. Would it anyway? I think it would have spread anyway, much more slowly. And it was no blessing, as Christians know, and Protestants in particular, many Catholics as well, It was no blessing to have undone the brilliant insight of the New Testament: render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and render to God what belongs to God. That was the beginning of the ability to have a non-theocratic state. That is a phenomenal gift of the New Testament to civilization. But once the state became the Holy Roman Empire, it was a disaster for Christianity. Even though it spread more, it was a disaster.

So if I understood, summarizing, you've given some of the reasons as a Jew you don't believe Jesus is divine, but you believe Christianity is part of a divine plan that is operating in history. Do you think history— by the way, let me ask an audience question. How many of you are loosely defined end-timers? We are in the end times. And how many say, I have no clue?

How many hope it's the end times?

What, what is the, what is the Jewish understanding of where history is going? How does it end? The Christians have revelation. They know the end of the story. They understand it to be true. What do Jews believe?

Well, global warming. You should never— Yes, exactly. I'm Sorry, you're right. The, uh, never ask what the Jews believe. Ask what does Judaism believe. What does Judaism say? So, uh, the, the general belief is that in God's good time, the Messiah will come and we will have a, a much better world. Uh, that, that's basically, uh, it. I will say though, what you need to understand about both Jews and Judaism is we are much less theological than Christians. It's not better or worse, it just is a fact. When religious Jews get together, they don't talk theology. They talk about halacha, Jewish law, or they talk about the most common thing. All right, my wife and I 2 weeks ago, Shabbat dinner. Shabbat is the Sabbath in Hebrew, Friday night. It begins at sunset. We went to Chabad of Cambodia. Amazingly, there was a Chabad house. These are ultra-Orthodox Jews who open up homes, houses all over the world for Jews to gather. And, and they're a remarkable group of people. And to have one in Cambodia where no Jews live is mind-blowing. Uh, so anyway, they had one. Are there any Jews in Cambodia? Yeah, yeah, 3. I mean, you know, how many Jews? It's not like there are a lot of Christians in Cambodia, okay? There's a Shabbat house. 99% Buddhist. Uh, there were 20 Jews at the Shabbat dinner, which was amazing in and of itself, but they were from— everyone was from a different country. It was fast. It was a great dinner. And he, and he knew of me and I was honored by that. And he asked me to give— what did he ask me to do? Give a dvar Torah, a word about the Torah, usually about the portion that we read that week. He did that, so I spoke about the commandment to honor your parents. That's what Jews will talk about, practical stuff. How do you honor your parents better? How do you keep Shabbat better? How do you do this better? But theology is just not—

well, take me back to the Messiah for a moment. How do you know it's happening, or is it just a flash of an eye?

No, you, you only know what's happening by it worked, it happened. How do you know a touchdown is scored? Because the guy went into the end zone, not because he's planning on getting into the end zone or claims to be the greatest quarterback in history, but because they score. So Judaism does not teach to watch at the door? No, that's correct.

Now, in terms of when Israel is reconstituted in 1948, what's the theological significance of it?

There was, yes, the Orthodox claimed, and there were many prayers on this, although not all Orthodox said it, but most did, that Israel is the beginning of the flowering of our redemption. That's the Hebrew wording that they would add into their prayers.

Where does that derive from?

From the belief that, uh, I think as many Christians do, seeing it as a divine sign. Oh my God, just as the prophets predicted, the Jews would come back to their land. There's no parallel to this in human history, of a people being dispersed 2,000 years and coming back to their land.

Do you read Walker Percy, great novelist? No. Walker Percy, great Catholic novelist of the South, won the Book Award in '66 for The Moviegoer, was asked why he was a believer, and he said, when someone explains the Jews to me, then I'll stop being a believer. And that was what you said earlier.

That's right. Well, that, that's a very— that's been given by a number of people. Frederick the Great, the, the, the German emperor, was said— at least this is the story—

said to his wise men, I want you to come back with the one-word proof of God's existence, and they came back and said, "Juden, Jews." Alright, now, one of my law students is here, Jan, and I was, after class last week, I asked, "What would you ask Dennis?" He said, "Ask him about the Holocaust." By which I think is this: How can a just God allow the slaughter, and you've just been to Holocaust Land Part 2, how can a just God allow that?

Well, here's what has happened to me with regards to God. It is very upsetting. I won't say who because he's very well known, but a well-known Jewish rabbi friend of mine, he's Orthodox. Well, he's semi-Orthodox. He's publicly Orthodox. Dennis Prager said to me once, he said, Dennis, I figured out you can either love man or love God, but you can't love them both. It's a very bitter statement about human suffering and the world God created with all the suffering. Now I know, you know, I've written and said, you know, You blame man for Auschwitz, you blame man for Cambodia, you blame man for the Gulag, you blame man for Mao's 70 million. But there are two answers to that. One, God made man, and he didn't make an impressive creature. Some are impressive, no question about it. But I love people, and I hate humanity. That's been my line, and it's true on both. I'm nuts about people. That's why I love traveling. I love taxi drivers in Phnom Penh. But humanity, I'm very unimpressed with. But that's one. The other is there's a lot of suffering that people don't cause. Tsunamis and cancer and all the other stuff. So what do I do with it? First of all, I am prepared, unlike many, many people, people who become agnostic, and on the other hand many believers, I am prepared to walk around not knowing God's ways. I am. I have— Judaism gives me peace of mind on this issue because it doesn't attempt to answer the theodicy question. My wife and I have a difference on this, and I think it comes from the fact that I grew up Jewish and she didn't grow up Jewish. I am at total peace with the Book of Job's answer. God looks at Job at the end and says, "Hey, if you're so smart, you think you know everything, tell me Where were you when the world was created? Do you know why a mother bear takes care of her cubs? In other words, you don't know menorah from Cheyenne, so you're trying to figure out all the tough things about life? Have a nice day, Job. And I am at total peace with that. I know I can't understand God's ways. So that's— All I know, there is a God who created the world. God wants us to be good, gave us a recipe on how to do it through this Bible, and that's it. That's basically what I believe. Micah 6:8 is my favorite line. Oh man, has God not told you all he wants from you is to pursue justice, Love mercy, or love justice, pursue mercy, and act humbly with your God. Is it act or walk? Ve'hatzne'ah l'lechati melavecha. Walk. Thank you. And, uh, I gotta do that. I learned it in Hebrew. I gotta— I always have to do that. But, uh, stick with me. You see, here's an interesting thing, and this— I've never said this publicly. It's my trust of you, my trust of all of you. What I think is most people— and this is not said as a holier-than-thou thing— most people, most religious people, are not satisfied with that. God wants me to be good? That's boring. Ah yeah, I'll be good. I know he wants me to be good, but There has to be so much more to religion. And so, I believe Christians added immense amount of theology, and Jews added an immense amount of laws.

Alright, now, lightning round, because I do want to get to some of the questions from the audience. You don't believe— Judaism does not believe in Lucifer, the Son of Light, the Beelzebub. I discovered this in a green room in Sacramento, and I said, "Wait a minute, who's in the garden? Who's in Job?" You just quoted Job. Explain to people.

Job, first of all, this may disappoint some, but I accept the traditional Jewish view that Job is an allegory. God doesn't make bets with counter-angels or counter-gods. It's there to answer the problem of evil from a Jewish standpoint. This disturbs some, and I understand that, and I don't have an argument. I accept it as an allegory. By the way, I believe that that is true. I said I am literalist about 40 days on Sinai, but I'm not literalist about the Garden of Eden. I think the Garden of Eden is the most brilliant story ever told. But I believe it's allegorical. But even if— I don't care that people believe it's literal. I have no— I have a problem with the literal on the days of creation because the text doesn't suggest that. How can you have 24-hour days before the sun is made anyway?

Do you believe in evolution?

Well, I— this is— here's my answer, and I'm not trying to avoid you at all. I don't care. And this is an answer that nobody likes. That's my answer. You too? Yeah. Oh, you like it then. Oh, good. I— you see, the only thing about evolution that bugs me is the way they teach it, that this explains creation with no need for a creator. That's nonsense. But if— but if I share 94.2% of DNA with a, with, I don't know, the chimpanzee. Well, no, actually we share 90-something higher, but even 94 with some primitive organism. What was it? Some stupid fish. Red Sox fish? Which is redundant. With the Red Sox? Oh, you see, that's that. No, there's some dumb fish that we share like a ridiculous amount of DNA. So obviously there's some commonality. What do I care? I'm crazy about classical music. I listen to a Bach partita and I go out of my mind. Now, do I think that evolution explains Bach's partitas? Oh, sure, if you have enough time you go from a fish to Bach. No, the idea strikes me as preposterous. I just— so, if it's true, fine. What bothers me is the religion of scientism. I have no issue with science. My brother is a professor of medicine at Columbia University, went to Harvard Medical School. He obviously knows science, and he's an Orthodox Jew. He said he discovered God looking at the cell. So complex, it doesn't happen by itself. I agree with him. Okay, the concept of a lightning round Okay, here we go.

All right, is rapid answers.

Okay, that's the middle verse of Leviticus. The middle verse of Leviticus is love your neighbor as yourself, I am God.

See, I, uh, I once slammed John Kerry for saying love your neighbor as yourself was an Old Testament verse, and Dennis Prager said, well, he's right, you know, it's the middle verse of Leviticus. That's in the middle of Leviticus.

I know nobody— no, I know Leviticus is not everybody's favorite book, for good reason. It's pretty boring. But, uh, it's got Leviticus 19, is the most sublime ethical chapter in, uh, in the Torah.

Um, sex, drugs, and rock and roll. What does Judaism say about gambling?

This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom. Very— I love Judaism's approach to gambling. This is, uh, the Torah says nothing on it, but the rabbis— and Judaism is not just Torah. Catholics can relate to not just scripture, and of course Protestants believe just scripture. But in any event, uh, the rabbinic answer on gambling is awesome. A Jew is permitted to gamble as long as he doesn't do it for a living. So if you want to go to Vegas and, you know, have a little fun, fine. But if you're going to start depending upon it for your living, that's bad. That's bad. And they give a reason. I love it. Because you won't make the world any better.

I had read the questions beforehand. This fits in here. Glee character Kurt— I have never seen an episode of Glee. Have you, Dennis Prager? Glee? Glee. It's a very— how many of you— what's Glee?

Do you know?

Dwayne is a Glee— Dwayne watches every week. How many of you are Glee watchers? Okay, so you'll understand this. So why'd you all laugh?

Only 25 hands went up. Because we know what it is.

Uh, Glee character Kurt in the grilled cheese episode said, quote, how can I believe in a God who made me gay so his people could ridicule me every day of my life? How can a person of faith take a stand on biblical principles and often demonstrate God's compassion?

Well, there are two— there are a lot of answers here. This can't be lightning, but I'll try to be. I know. How about thunder? I'll try for thunder. First, this notion God made me a is intellectually dishonest, even though the people who say it mean it with great conviction. I am unimpressed by conviction. I'm impressed by rationality, not by conviction. So the fact that people who say it mean it, it means nothing to me. Nothing. The notion that God made a person this. Do you know who say that? The deaf community. That's why they're opposed to the cochlear implant. They can fix a lot of kids. The very fact that I used fix is anti-gay— excuse me, anti-deaf thinking. The deaf community, quote unquote, is opposed to the surgery that can give a young person their hearing because it implies that hearing is better than deaf. And they use the same line, "God made me deaf." I don't believe God made anybody deaf. I don't believe God made anybody gay. Or God made anybody heterosexual. I don't think that God does that. There are gay people and there are deaf people, and the inability to make love to the same sex is to me a tragedy. Do we therefore hurt these people? If you hurt these people, you've committed an act of evil. And there is nothing to suggest that we should hurt such people. But we are allowed, we religious people, are allowed to say there is a heterosexual ideal. All things being equal, the ideal is for a man and a woman to make love, not a man and a man, and not a woman and a woman. This is not anti-anybody. I'll give you a perfect Jewish example. When I was the head of a Jewish institute in my late 20s, that's why I came to California to head a Jewish institute, I was single. And I will never forget, I said to the folks, to give them a lesson in thinking Jewishly, I said, "Folks, I am single, as you all know." If you fired me because the Jewish ideal is to get married, you would be wrong. But if I got up and announced that it doesn't matter whether a Jew gets married or not, you should fire me the next day. You don't fire a gay, but anybody who would announce in a Christian or Jewish serious place, that the religion sees no difference between sex between same-sex people and opposite sex, they, I don't believe, are teaching the religion accurately. There are ideals. Judaism has an ideal of getting married. By the way, it's one of the reasons Jews would have had skepticism about Jesus. He was celibate. Jews don't trust celibates. They don't, I'm telling you. Jews marry everybody off. It's a Jewish instinct. I'll never forget, I brought 3, 3 Catholic priests to a seder one year. And they were good-looking guys, and the women were setting them up like crazy. You know, I know a great Catholic girl, and I'd kick them under the table. He's a priest, he's a priest. So what? I know a great Catholic girl.

All right, Dennis, do you pray?

Oh man, not much. You know what I do to get closer to God? I study the Torah. I'm a studier rather than a prayer.

Does God hear prayers and respond?

Yeah, I think that God does. Yes, I think he does hear. Respond the way we want? Not usually. But I will tell you this. Here I want to say a word on behalf of Christians. I love when I attend, which is very often, Christian dinners and Christian events where I speak, and they open up with a prayer. I love it. That spontaneous statement and invoking God into the proceedings, it moves me tremendously Jewish prayer I have a big problem with because it's all written for you, and, uh, it's— it just doesn't— it doesn't move me much. That's my— that is a problem I do have.

The essence of Christianity is forgiveness. Uh, what is forgiveness's role in Judaism?

The essence of Judaism is fighting evil. So maybe our essences are a little different.

I'm quite sure that that's not the essence of Christianity, fighting evil.

Explain what you mean by that. Well, I think it's— would every—

would most Jews agree the essence of Judaism is fighting evil?

Believe it or not, it's one of the handful of things most Jews would agree, because the liberal Jew, the liberal secular Jew, would say he— they wouldn't use those words. They would say fight for social justice. But it would still be in that family. And I think that— I don't think fighting for social justice and fighting evil are identical, but that's a separate issue. But I get it from the Bible itself, from Psalms: "Those of you who love God must hate evil." Christians and forgiveness is a very, very complex question to me. Uh, here I think that Christians need to think very carefully through because of a lot of Christians have adopted automatic forgiveness as if it's a Christian doctrine. And I, uh, I recoil, frankly, I really do. I wrote a piece on that in the Wall Street Journal many years ago when President Clinton's pastor in Washington got up and said, "All Christians are duty-bound to forgive Timothy McVeigh." McVeigh was still living. And I went ballistic. Who the hell are you to forgive— who is A to forgive B for murdering C? God doesn't do it. Christians truly need to rethink their. Their thinking on forgiveness. Christians do what God doesn't do. God doesn't forgive you if you don't repent.

Well, think about what you just said. Christians need to rethink their doctrine of forgiveness.

Yes. The way they are teaching it and living it. The doctrine. You tell me what the doctrine. No, no, no, no. I'm a lawyer, not a theater. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Are we— no, no, no, no. This is a very serious subject to me. It bugs the hell out of me because it's what Chris— it depends what the doctrine is. If the doctrine is that you forgive those who repent, God bless Christians for their doctrine. I share it. But if you forgive those who don't repent, I don't know what your biblical basis is. You need to open your show with that one tomorrow.

You'll be filled.

Oh, I have, no, I have talked about it. And by the way, a lot of Christians do rethink it. Wait, who? No, this is very important. McVeigh kills my child and you forgive McVeigh? I'd punch you in the face. I would be furious at you. Who the hell are you?

Wait a minute.

But you have to understand, God doesn't forgive McVeigh unless McVeigh repents. So why should you? Are you better than God? We have to repent to God but not to humans? This— I have not had this passion on any subject that you raised like this one because it doesn't fight evil. I forgive McVeigh. Who are you to do that? The guy never repented. And he didn't hurt you. That's why, by the way, now here—

Wait, wait, do you hope he burns in hell for eternity?

We don't have the doctrine of eternity. Do I hope he burns in hell? I hope he is punished. If McVeigh is not punished, I hereby announce publicly I am an atheist. Right. Then God isn't good. Wait, you just said— God is not just. If Timothy McVeigh has the same fate as the people he blew up, God stinks.

You just said we don't have the doctrine of eternity. What do you mean?

The notion that someone is punished for eternity, it's just not a Jewish doctrine. I'm not saying yes or no. I've never heard it. It's not— We have the doctrine of punishment. But eternal punishment is a New Testament concept, not an Old Testament. So what happened?

I mean, you said earlier God rewards and punishes, right, based upon good deeds and bad deeds. There is a heaven. Dennis Prager intends to be there. I get to go, if I understood your— we all get to go. We don't even have to keep the laws you have to keep. But, but does it not go on forever and ever?

I don't know. You're asking me questions about divine justice I only know that there is divine justice. What it constitutes, God knows. And I am at peace knowing that God is just.

That's fine. Is there a discussion of it in Talmud?

About whether you're there forever? No, they don't speculate.

There's no tradition of speculation.

All right, you want to know what the Talmud talks about? Yes. Okay, if an egg is laid on— okay, no, no, no, no, I don't know. Can you eat it? Don't want to talk about the tummy.

From the audience, this is a very thought-out question, typed. Alright, so if you ever want to have your question read among the hundreds that are here. As a practicing Roman Catholic, I do not see the act of suicide as a solution to any problem, nor as a permitted method of avoiding pain and suffering, be it physical, mental, or emotional. However, as a practicing psychotherapist who has all too often encountered the despair and hopelessness of people who suffer from depression or other forms of mental illness, I have difficulty reconciling what my faith teaches about suicide and what some of those who I have treated see as their only option. Will you both please present the positions of Judaism and of Christianity with regard to suicide? And if in such cases as with a severely depressed mentally ill individual, do our faiths see this final act as a sure condemnation to hell, as would be the case in Christianity? Let me begin by saying I'm not going to answer. I have no idea, but I'm very interested in hearing interested in what Dennis teaches.

This is where the— let me go back to the gay issue. You have to teach your ideal, and then you must have mercy in the particular. The ideal is you don't commit suicide. Religions must teach that because so many people's lives are so pain-filled, physically and/or emotionally, that if religion said, look, if you really feel it's crappy, don't worry about it, kill yourself. There would be a lot more suicide, and that would not be a good thing. On the other hand, this psychotherapist is entirely right. There are people who, uh, one, anyone with a heart or a conscience understands why they would want to leave the misery that, that they, through no fault of their own, or even through fault of their own, have gotten into. So just Here, this will disturb some religious people here. I am known, in fact, I was the guy who testified for DOMA in Congress, the Defense of Marriage Act. I'm a very outspoken defender of male-female marriage. And I have paid consequences for it because of the hate-filled campaigns against anybody who advocates this way. Mormons here know what they suffered. For Proposition 8. Having said all of that, I introduced a gay male friend to another man. I did because I don't believe people should be alone in life.

And will God punish that relationship?

Well, technically, a Jewish answer, because it's very Jewish, is law-based. It depends what they do. The, the prohibition in the Torah is not living with a man. It is lying with a man as you lie with a woman. So that's the, that's the arena of prohibition specifically. But I don't want a, a gay man to live his life alone. Now, if there were pills available to change a gay man to a straight man, I would like him to take the pill. I believe in the ideal. There are no such pills. Is the sense—

do you agree that the reason Orthodox Jews and believing Christians are despised by many on the left is that they will make moral judgments that inevitably condemn the behaviors that are not otherwise condemned in law?

Well, first of all, the people who condemn Jews and Christians for making moral judgments, make moral judgments all the time. It's like my professors at Columbia who said, "Oh, morality is all relative. One man's right is another man's wrong and vice versa." And then the next class would tell me how immoral the war in Vietnam was. Well, didn't you hear what you said in the last class? I thought you said there is no morality, it's all relative. So these people are condemning people who condemn. So they obviously do the exact same thing they're condemning. I have not found Jews and Christians walking around with hate placards against homosexuals. The 99% of the Christians that I talk to on this matter, and I only say Christians because they're a lot more numerous than Jews, is we love the sinner and hate the sin. And I think most of them mean it. And I— what are we supposed to say? Okay, alright, it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if my daughter marries a woman or marries a man, doesn't matter to me so long as she's happy. That's what you're supposed to say. But I can't say that. If my daughter were, in fact, incapable of loving a man, then I want her to be happy. That is true. But I will— look, it's in my own family, and I can only say this publicly because she's writing a book on this, and, and I love her. I love her and her female partner. My niece is a lesbian, and I love her, and I, and as I say, I love her partner, and I love when the two of them visit and stay in my home, and She knows that I wish that she were heterosexual. I do. I will not deny that. She knows it, her partner knows it. How could they not know it? I'm pretty public. Uncle Dennis is well known. Let me ask you, but, but, so you carry both. They are not estranged from me. I don't like when parents do this, or relatives, uh, and it's— you have no idea how common this when people change their mind. Well, I now see the light because my daughter is a lesbian, or my son is a homosexual. Something is an ideal religiously, whether or not your child is. If your child has made emotional blackmail— I will stop loving you if you continue to believe in your religion's heterosexual ideal— your child has done something very wrong to you.

By the way, how many of you— this overwhelming believing audience, though, of many different varieties, like Baskin-Robbins— how many of you have a gay or lesbian close family member whom you love unconditionally? It's just, it's simply—

I think you're absolutely right about that.

Question: Exodus talks about those who have slaves. Why would the Israelites, who had just gained freedom, want to own or have slaves?

Well, the slaves in Exodus are indentured servants, and we had that in indentured servitude. What was the percentage of whites in America who were indentured servants who first came over? A third. A third of the whites came— whites coming from Europe were almost on the level of slaves. They were indentured servants. This concept has gone on for thousands of years in civilized society. People owed debts, they worked for somebody until it was paid off, or they just worked for somebody because they couldn't get a job. America was founded, at least a third, by such people. So that's what is talked about there. But the laws are spectacularly humane. First, you must let— you give them— you give the man a wife, which they didn't have here. We didn't even have here in the pre-US. You gave the man a wife. He would leave with his wife and his children. They were not owned by the owner of the so-called slave. After 7 years, it's over. And if the slave said, but I love my master, I want to I'm quoting directly from the Hebrew. But if he should say, "I love my master and I want to stay," then you put him up against the doorpost and drill a hole in his ear as a mark of shame for somebody who wants to continue to be a slave.

Is the God of the Quran the God of Talmud?

I would have an easier time with, is the God as ultimately understood by much of normative Islam the same as the God of the Talmud? I don't think so. And I'm not being, I'm not trying to be in any way inflammatory. And I'll tell you why. I'll give you one example. As Islam developed, the god of Islam became the determiner of everything. There is no natural causality in much of traditional Islamic thought. Meaning, If you shoot an arrow and it hits the bullseye, it is because Allah willed it, not because you shot accurately and the wind was taken into consideration. For the Talmud, it hit the bullseye because you shot accurately and the wind was taken into consideration. And so a very different understanding If what we mean by "Is it the same God?" is "Do we understand that God similarly?" No, we don't.

When has Dennis Prager wept?

Well, I have wept at different times for different things. When I was younger, I wept at sad movies, and now I weep at kindness. I used to weep at evil. And now I weep at kindness. Goodness makes me well up.

And I'm getting close to the end here because we're running low on time, and I want to make sure that I do this. The, uh, we were in a hotel in Baltimore with Sue, and I was— I remarked to him that I thought the decline of Western civilization was on the screen of every hotel room with the massive amount of pornography available. And Dennis Prager responded, That's not a problem. Something like that. Something— there was a very different understanding of pornography. What does Judaism teach about it?

Well, don't ask me what Judaism teaches. Ask me my thought. Oh, uh, look, Orthodox— now, even Orthodox Jews would have a different— Orthodox Jews are anti-pornography, but, uh, the, um Sexual matters in much of religious Jewish life don't have the same quite— it's a very complex issue. It's easier to be a Christian on this one, Dennis. No, no, it's easier to be a Jew, but it's harder to answer the question. Oh, you're right. It's— well, look, I'll tell you this story, and I'm only self-conscious because my wife has heard it on more than two dozen occasions. But it's— it unfortunately or fortunately, it It is a very powerful explanation of why there is a difference, and I do believe there is a difference. There— well, I'll tell you the story and then I'll give you the explanation. Happened on Religion on the Line, the program I first came to radio in Los Angeles. 10 years, priest, minister, rabbi, and others each week, different ones. I would set the topic. And they would talk. So one night I said, okay, Rabbi, Father, Pastor, we're going to talk about your religion's view of lust. So I always did the same thing each week: Protestant, Catholic, Jew, then the second round: Jew, Catholic, Protestant. So, Pastor, your understanding of Christianity's view of lust. And he cited Jesus in Matthew, whoever lusts after another woman has committed adultery with his heart, and how terrible it was, what a sin it was, etc., that Christians should have pure thoughts, etc. The Roman Catholic priests virtually said the same thing, totally understandably. And then it was the rabbi's turn. And the rabbi in this case, by sheer chance, turned out to be a bearded Ultra-Orthodox rabbi. And I had no idea what he would say. He was from Eastern Europe, so he had a slight accent, and he looked at me and he said, "Dennis, lust schmust." That was it. And I gotta say, this is what I tell Jews whenever I tell the story, I was never prouder to be a Jew in my life. No Christian is going to say lust schmust. For Christians, lust is a biggie. For Jews, if you do it, it's a biggie. If you think it, it's not a biggie. It's a big difference. That is why, by the way, I am convinced why psychoanalysis was developed by Jews. Overwhelmingly, it was considered, it was almost dismissed as a Jewish science, except for, uh, what's his name, Jung. Except for Jung, they were all Jews. Freud and the whole gang. Now, secular or not, it doesn't matter, and I'll tell you why. Judaism always allowed free thought and didn't declare thoughts sinful. Let me tell you of an insight that you'll find fascinating. This is the Christian trade that was made, in my opinion, with Jews. Jews made a spectacular number of actions sinful. You know, light a fire on the Sabbath, it's a sin. Christianity got rid of that and substituted sinful thoughts. So pick your poison.

I have 5 questions left, but before that, I want to make sure I don't forget 2 things.

Oh, and I got one more story on this.

You're gonna make me forget it. You're gonna love it.

You're gonna love it. Go ahead. Yeshiva, right? I mean, yeshiva boy. Orthodox rabbis are all my— all my teachers in Judaism are Orthodox rabbis. My second, third year in high school, The rabbi looks at the boys and says, "Boys, you shouldn't go to a dirty movie, but if you go, take your yarmulke off." The late Tim Russert tells a story in his wonderful memoir, Big Russ.

He went to Canisius High School in Buffalo, and he had to switch buses from the blue-collar part of town to go to the ritzy part of town. And he all— and the bus stop where all the blue-collar kids came was in front of a burlesque house. And so from the time he was in 9th grade and 10th grade and 11th grade, they talked about getting into the burlesque house. This is mid-'60s. And finally they worked up their courage to go over to the burlesque house. They were seniors. Four of them walked over and they looked. The guy taking the ticket said, does Father Frank know you're here? Like they were the first Kinesius kids ever to go to the burlesque house. Uh, two things. One, we would very much value hearing from you, uh, if you enjoyed this program, what you thought could be improved about it, because Dennis and I will do this again. Hugh@HughHewitt.com. It's the easiest thing in the world to remember. I will forward them to Dennis. Hugh@HughHewitt.com. How many of you would go to ask a Jew, too?

How many would go to ask a Jew, three?

Okay, then—

Wait a minute, how many of you would go to ask a Presbyterian? Ah, you're full of baloney. Nobody would go to ask a Presbyterian. Give me a break.

Have you ever heard a great evangelical preacher preach? Yes.

Who? John Hagee. Um, he's powerful.

He's powerful, but he's not— he is evangelical, but I was thinking more in terms like Earl Palmer or Billy Graham or someone who, who really preached in the theological tradition of the revival.

I heard Billy Graham a number of times. I didn't hear this, this other gentleman. Okay. Um, what's— so you want to know what I thought? Yeah, well, it's funny because since I was a child, it drove my parents a little nutty. Not that they— they just didn't understand why I would, but I would be in the car with them and I would— they would, you know, go through the dial, then, you know, manually go— there was no scan, so they would turn the dial and then there would be a Christian pastor on. I go, stop, I, I want to hear— I got weird. I don't know, I, I definitely And I would just be— I was always fascinated by Christians and Christianity. And so I would just, I would listen and I would watch the televangelists and so on. I never had a holier-than-thou feeling. I am so basically— are these people contributing to people's lives to make this very difficult journey in life any better than they're doing good.

I'm going to a different part of that one. Not how many times have you heard an altar call, but how many times have you heard Christians preach on the Old Testament? You know, David is often preached on. I've probably heard more sermons about David than about any other figure. But the Old Testament is alive and being, you know, taught all the time. What do you think of how they handle it? Do they get it right most of the time?

They, they get it right, uh, some of the time. Uh, where would there be a— let's see, I'm trying to think of where we would read, uh, something differently. Well, here's, here's a question.

How do you answer the, the massacres in Joshua, Judges? Clans instead of thousands. How could God allow that?

Well, I'm glad you asked how could God allow it rather than how could God direct it. That's usually the question, and it's very troubling. You're right, it is God-directed. Yeah, so it is troubling. My only answer to that is this: either God didn't direct it and whoever wrote it got it wrong, because this is post-Torah and I'm okay with that. The Torah is where I have my real bright line. Or God did in fact tell them to do it and God knew what he was doing. See, there's the thing that doesn't bother me is this: there is not a hint in any Jewish scripture that you kill the non-Jew. Never. There's no hint of it. There were specific moments in the conquering of Canaan where there was killing. That was it. It was a one-time event. God had his reasons, if indeed God was involved, and I don't know what else to say. And if God wasn't involved, then I am not going to judge people from 3,000 3,000 years ago any more than I judge Jefferson for having slaves 200 years ago. It's very easy to sit back. All I know is the book that has Joshua in it is the book that ended slavery.

Um, for Prager, do you think a marriage between a practicing Catholic and a practicing Jew can really work? And what about raising the kids? Which religion?

Both? It's very tough, an inter-religious marriage where both take their respective religions seriously. I mean, we have to be honest. It's not my first recommendation, given all the obstacles that exist in marriage to begin with, to add that as well. You know, can it work? There's nothing that can't work in life. People have made— and Americans particularly can do it. But it's all things being equal, if you're dating and you take your religion seriously, it's best to date people who either are open to taking your religion seriously through conversion or already do. Can you remember your bar mitzvah passage? Okay, let me explain something. In traditional Jewish life, which of course mine was, you have no idea. You know what Indian kids would have to go through torture to show they were a man? That's what Orthodox kids do. We go through mental torture. I had to— every kid has to read from the Torah.

It's a long way of saying no, isn't it?

No, go ahead. To say no, it wasn't a yes, it was a yes/no question. I just wonder if you could remember But go ahead. I remember it well. It was actually killing all the people in the Holy Land. It was a terribly bloody— it was the end of Numbers. See, we read a portion from the Torah. Each Sabbath has a portion of the Torah. My luck, I had a Sabbath— my bar mitzvah fell for a Sabbath reading of two portions the longest in the Torah. So it was 248 verses that I had to essentially memorize. Was that by luck? Bad luck? Sheer crappy luck. Told my wife, I kept thinking, if I'd have been born 5 days later, I would have had one-third the length. But it made me a better man.

Did you just memorize, or did you have to study it? Is— have you thought about it? No, no, it was just—

you really just studied it in order to chant it properly? Two more, we're running low here.

By the way, is the— is Rex Kern really here?

Is Rex Kern here?

He had to leave. He was here, he left. I didn't get to meet Rex Kern. Oh, God is not just.

I—

well, all the SC people stayed, and the championship quarterback from the 1968 Ohio State Buckeyes left.

That just kills me. I prayed he would leave. All right.

Should religion change as society changes? For example, Catholic services move from Latin to English. How does tradition dictate these aspects? For example, Hasidic Jews and their manner of dress, Amish life lifestyles, and I think the implication here is some people are just stuck on tradition and they're not moving with the society.

Well, it depends what you're changing. I don't believe garb matters. It depends if it matters. Here's one to really upset— I don't think it'll upset most of you, but it even upsets me. I can't think of a very rational reason not to have ordained women in the various, uh, Protestant— like, there was a very good reason in Catholicism, uh, or at least there's a, there's a valid theological reason, but I can't think of one in Judaism or in Protestantism. And yet I can't argue that the ordination of women has, and we now have a generation to reflect. If I had to give a cost-benefit analysis, I think the costs were greater than the benefits. The synagogues and the churches that have been most gung-ho for female clergy have fewer members. And you'll say, you can call it sexist, you can call it anything you like. Calling names doesn't deal with reality. I think that most men and most women who are serious about religion would prefer a male clergy person. Can women do the job? Of course women can do the job. It's a non-issue. Well, why can't women master the biblical scriptures and, and teach? Of course they can. There are many great roles for women in religiosity, but I do believe that in the final analysis, it was not a wise, it was an understandable and maybe even necessary, but I'm not sure beneficial change. I predicted, because I learned this from George Gilder, I give him credit, when men don't have a specific role, they opt out. Now, what do feminists say? Men have fragile egos. So instead of dealing with the issue, we don't call women names because of whatever idiosyncratic aspect of their personality exists, but we do. It doesn't matter to me. I don't care what they call me. But, in fact, that's the case. And in Reform Judaism and in Conservative Judaism, More and more of the classes of ordaining cantors and rabbis are women. And men have simply opted out. But I believe that boys more need a male clerical model than girls need a female clerical model to keep them religious.

And my last question, ending on time. Um, obviously suffering is central to a lot of theology. My friend David Allen White says it's the whole essence of understanding, uh, Catholicism and Christianity. And, and you've suffered when you gave up cigars. That, that hurt.

Uh, and wait, wait, do you all know that it's a joke? Because if you don't, if you don't all know it's a joke, he just sinned. But, and not Not only did he just sin, but even if he repents, I will not forgive him.

I'd like you to close by talking a little bit about—

You had lost the mic. See that? And I didn't do that. I didn't do that. It's very impressive.

It's like that. Okay. I'd like you to talk a little bit about whether or not suffering brings people closer to God, and if so, is that in fact part of God's plan? Plan? And on that, we're closing, so wrap it all up. Thanks for all of you for coming, for Carole, for putting it on. It's always wonderful to be with my pal Dennis. Uh, take it away, Mr.

Prager. The— there is no answer to that, and I'll tell you why. The question is identical, or similar, not identical, to: does suffering make people kinder? Or meaner? And the answer is entirely individual. There are people who are better people after suffering, and there are people who are worse. There are groups that get meaner, there are groups that get kinder. We suffered, and so we're victims. Screw you. That's not uncommon. And individuals will say the same thing: I suffered, so should everybody else. "Or I've suffered and I don't want anybody else to suffer." Both are common reactions. And the same with the God issue. I feel about getting close to God that some of us are blessed with it innately. I'm not. And I have had to work on it. Not belief. I've not had to work on belief. I've had to work on closeness. And others, I have met people who are just God-centered emotionally. They walk with God. They have a relationship to God. I basically, my view is I know what God wants me to do and I want to devote my life to doing it. I get a great deal of, of, of satisfaction from that. I can't write a book titled God is My Copilot or Walking with You, God, as there is much Walking with You, Jesus. I envy people who can, but that's not me. But I'll tell you one advantage of this is that I, because I'm so rational and such a believer, I have been able to bring a lot of people to faith because of my rationality and not my reliance on emotion and just faith proclamations. So I think that maybe God wanted it that way. Prager, and I really do view myself, that's why, if I may be really open and almost sound silly maybe to some of you, There is no danger I will ever get a swelled head. There isn't. I can tell you that as I know that 2 and 2 is 4. I never got one. You know me, I don't have a swelled head. It's not a danger. It's not because I'm great or I— I don't even have to work on it. I am the reason, and that's why I don't take credit for it. I just know I am another mortal, no better than the Cambodians taxi driver. I'm unbelievably lucky that I got an X ability, that I got born in America, a whole host of things. That's it. So what I'm here to do is God's work. That's how I view every single day when I go on the radio. And before I give a lecture, I usually will remember to say, God, just make sure I do what you want me to do. That's it. I don't ask for health. I don't ask for anything. I just want to make sure I can do what he does. We all die, and I want to have lived a life, hopefully, that he would be proud of me when he greets me. And I believe that he would. So let me end by saying that you are one of the gifts in my life, and thank you for today.

Thank you all. That's mutual.

Good night. This has been Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Visit DennisPrager.com for thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles.