"We're in a Very, Very Dangerous World"

I'm joined by Gordon Chang, who is an author, professor, and China expert. His latest book is Plan Red: China's Project to Destroy America. Welcome back, Mr. Chang. It's great to be with you. We are discussing this latest development in the Russia-Ukraine war, that is President Biden allowing Ukraine to shoot conventional weapons into the Russian interior. And we were discussing how China might be involved in this or how China may respond by its alliance with Russia to such an attack. Please go on.

China has been supplying almost all-in support to the Russians. Remember, on February 4th, 2022, Vladimir Putin, when he was in Beijing, issued the joint statement with China that declared their all-no-limits partnership where they said no type of assistance would be prohibited. And since then, we have seen China actually finance the war effectively with its elevated commodity purchases. It's provided diplomatic and propaganda support. Also, China's been providing lethal assistance to Russia from the very beginning of this conflict. And I believe that China masterminded the relationship between North Korea and Russia. Where the North Koreans are supplying artillery shells, short-range ballistic missiles, artillery pieces, as well as those soldiers that we talked about— 12,800 of North Korea's finest soldiers. So China has been very much behind this, and I believe that they are happy to see the North Koreans in Russia because they believe at this point that Russia must win this, because China and Russia are working cooperatively destabilize the international situation.

As I indicated a few moments ago, Russian President Vladimir Putin has promised that if the United States would allow the Ukrainians to shoot conventional weapons into the interior, it would mean nothing less than a direct act of warfare on the part of the United States and NATO countries on Russia. How do you anticipate Putin and his ally Xi Jinping might react to what we saw this morning, Ukraine in fact carrying out another offensive, shooting conventional weapons into the interior?

Well, Russia has done everything it possibly can except use its tactical nuclear weapons. So I'm not sure that there's going to be much of a conventional response. You know, Russia's been struggling with this war, which is the reason why the North Korean soldiers are there. And so I think the threat is hollow. The question is whether he will actually use tactical nukes. I suspect he won't, but there's always the possibility of that. You know, we've got to remember, you know, a lot of people say taking off the limits on the use of the ATACMS missiles is dangerous. Yes, it is. But that's not a meaningful objection, because at this point, every course going forward is dangerous. And I believe that the course that we have adopted so far, which has been one of restraint, has allowed Putin first to invade and then to engage in barbarous acts. So we are at a point where we've lost the initiative. Biden lost the initiative starting from the catastrophic withdrawal from Afghanistan, which means right now we're in a very, very dangerous world.

Turning now to the head of that very dangerous world, China. We know that China has endeavored to infiltrate and subvert the United States for some decades now. They buy farmland next to our military bases. They have a spy base on Cuba. They commit an act of warfare by making and manufacturing the fentanyl, which kills 75,000 Americans a year. They have bought off many of our top leaders, including the president of the United States. You are obviously an expert on China. Your book again is Plan Red: China's Project to Destroy America. I'm curious, how would you characterize the situation in China today compared to 5 years ago when Donald Trump was president?

Well, with regard to China's external behavior, it certainly is much more belligerent. Trump on January 20th, 2021, left Joe Biden a peaceful and stable world. And Biden's policies, I think, have opened the door to Russian aggression, certainly in Ukraine. We've seen China and Russia destabilize North Africa by fielding insurgencies that look like wars. We know that China has been behind Iran's assault on Israel. So although Biden's policies, when he articulates them, sound like they should work, they sound responsible. Nonetheless, they have have certainly contributed to a disastrous situation, which means that we need to do something different. Now, I'm not saying that something different is going to work, especially at this late stage, but if we don't try something different, we know that the current policies are going to result in even more calamity. So we've got to understand we may not have a good solution here. You cannot have misguided policies since the end of the Cold War and not expect that we will be able to get out of this without cost.

I want to follow up on something that you just said. I don't want to let it slip by. It's very important. You said that China was behind Iran and Hamas's attack on October 7th in Israel. What is the evidence for that?

Well, first of all, again, it's elevated commodity purchases. So last year, China took more than 90% of Iran's exports of crude oil. The volume of that was 60% above that in 2017. 2017 is relevant, Julie, because that is the last year before the Trump administration reimposed sanctions on the purchase of Iranian oil. But it's certainly much more because there's been diplomatic and propaganda support. Iran has components for its weapons come from China. For instance, Iran doesn't make computer chips. The computer chips in Iran's weapons come from China. And also Iran's main proxies, Hezbollah, Hamas, Houthi militia, have large quantities of Chinese weapons. They also have large quantities of North Korean weapons. And North Korea could not sell them to Iran without China's approval. We saw on January 20th, July 23rd of this year, the 14 Palestinian groups, they met in Beijing. They signed the Beijing Declaration. That shows you that China's involvement in this war has been deep and comprehensive. And so we should be holding China responsible for the attack on Israel. The fact that we don't hold China responsible for anything means that the leaders in Beijing think they can do whatever they want.

I have to say, I'm— I can't say I'm happy to hear this, but I'm a little bit encouraged because I wrote an article which many publications rejected actually about a year ago, positing that China and its accomplice Russia were likely behind the October 7th massacre in Israel. So to hear from you, the expert, that there is overwhelming evidence for that, I'm happy that my original contention was correct.

It certainly was correct, Julie.

So Donald Trump is going to take office in less than 100 days. How do you anticipate these alliances— that is, again, Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea— would be affected by a second Trump administration?

Yeah, that's a great question. We have a little bit evidence of that so far because just before our November 5th election and continuing through now, China has been uncharacteristically quiet in its peripheral seas and airspace. Which I think is an indication of a couple things. There's some internal reasons for it, but primarily I think China has been quiet, and this is really, really unusual. I think it's because they want to give Donald Trump a very wide berth. They're worried about what he might do. They know he's unpredictable. They know they can't control him, and they can't certainly figure out what he's going to do next. So I think that China has decided to lay low. I don't know how long this will last, Julie, but clearly it is very welcome that the Chinese provocations have just disappeared this month. Hmm.

Do you anticipate that there might be a blockade surrounding Taiwan or, God forbid, an all-out invasion?

The authorities in Taiwan have been telling visiting foreigners for at least a month now that they expect China to impose a quarantine within the next 3 or 4 months. And that means, um, there's going to be trouble. Now, quarantine is technically not an act of war, but in these circumstances, it probably would lead to a blockade, which is an act of war, and it could even lead to a shooting conflict. So there is a lot of danger in that. I just hope that the election of President Trump is delaying China's plans to quarantine Taiwan, because once they do that, I think they start a series of events that they may not be able to control. And the other The other factor here is that inside the Chinese political system right now, only the hostile answers, actually even only the most hostile answers are considered to be acceptable, which means that Xi Jinping can't back down if he does something.

Gordon Chang, it has been so nice to have you on the program. Thank you so much for all of the incredible information that you provide to us. There are so few people who are relaying to us the threats that Communist China pose, and I commend you so much.

Well, thank you so much, Julie. I really appreciate talking to you.