You’re So Vain

Well, hello there, everybody. Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman And that's why it's called Dennis and Julie. Not exactly. We didn't pay anybody big bucks to come up with the name. Let's be honest. It's like the Dennis Prager Show.

Do you remember some iterations of names that we went through?

No.

You wanted to call it Two Generations or Generations or something. Remember that?

I did. I had that thought. Yeah, that's right.

Well, it's true.

Or White Hair and Blonde Hair.

They think they— I think someone wanted—

That's good. White and blonde. I said Beauty and the Beast. You said Beauty and the Beast. Sean says you're the beauty. I took it as if it was mine. You know, he insults me regularly, which means he really, really likes me.

I have to tell the audience what my mom said.

Oh God, this is funny. This is beyond belief.

My mom said to me the other day, she goes, Julie, I know how much you like Sean, but Dennis is so mean to him. Why doesn't Dennis like him? And I thought it was so funny. She didn't, I guess, pick up on the sarcasm. You would say there is no sarcasm.

I think that is so adorable that your mother thinks I am mean to Sean.

It's like, Sean doesn't deserve that.

Tell Dennis to be nice. That's incorrect. He does deserve it. But I am not mean to Sean. By the way, if you got to admit, I've mentioned this in the past, I'm certainly on my own show. It is a phenomenon that women do not engage in this at all and men gauge it. This is probably new to you because you have not been among men.

We've talked about—

you went to an all-girl school. You obviously all your roommates at Harvard were girls. So you don't know how men interact when they're with each other. This is like revelatory to you.

No, again, you cannot— we've said this before, but you cannot do it among women. And now that I look back, in high school we never ribbed each other, or in my—

well, certainly not the way we do, where, you know, just sheer outright insults are taken as, oh, he really likes me. So I, I had a thought here.

Oh my gosh.

So yes, so, but I'm going to raise an interesting issue with it. Okay, so folks, so just you'll know, I, I've worn glasses since like 11.

Really?

Yeah, that makes sense. Oh, you're gonna get a kick out of this. This is an insight into my father, who was a remarkable man and a tough father, there's no question, but he stopped being tough when I turned 14, and I bless him for it. But he was very tough till then. So he— one of his mottos was, for example, when I would be in pain or my brother would be in pain, his— you know what he would say to us? He is like— he was like the opposite of a helicopter parent. I don't know what the opposite— he was a torpedo parent.

Oh my gosh.

Yes. So his motto was, if you were in pain It's only pain. Nobody ever died from pain.

Oh gosh, of course they have.

Well, okay, what is he saying? Okay, it doesn't matter. The point is it's only pain.

Yeah, really.

By the way, it is better to be raised with it's only pain than, oh my God, are you okay? Oh, oh, let me fix that. Okay, anyway, so, so the other motto was— or an other motto, uh, never take the easy way out. And he just drilled that into me, but he took it to a ridiculous extreme. So this reminds me— and I'll get— I don't get to my point in a moment. So when I first got glasses at about 11 years of age, the doctor— which they used to say this, which was really stupid, but it is what it is.

By the way, what's an eye doctor called?

Ophthalmologist.

Really got to learn this stuff.

OPH. Very few people—

those of you who don't understand the reference, I'm glad you don't. Let's just put it that way.

You can offer it if you like.

Just watch the last episode and you'll get— see, this is how we entice people to watch. Anyway, go on.

So I— the doctor said to me and my— one of my parents who came with me to the doctor, okay, here are your glasses, and you, you should use them for reading and watching television. Now, when you think this was— anyone in the baby boomer generation who got glasses, I am sure, can relate to this. This was a common statement. But when you think about it, it's idiotic. The TV is far away and the reading is close, so when wouldn't you wear your glasses? Correct? What does that mean? It's for TV and reading. It's so absurd. So I, oddly enough, would wear them all the time since I preferred seeing clearly to not seeing clearly. And my father said to me, you know, you're wearing them all the time, you're taking the easy way out.

You're not training your eyes to see.

Yeah, or the key was I was taking the easy way out. Even my older brother cracked up when he heard that, and he usually was supportive of my parents. It was— eventually he came around to my side and did a great deal of good for me. But in any event, it always— I always think about that. I took the easy way out by wearing my glasses all the time.

I've got to tell you, I have the same view where— and I make fun of myself for this— I say, in Julie world, why would you take the easy way if you could take the hard way? And the answer is, I think that there's something deceptive about the easy way.

Like, but it is true. You know, you're— no, that view is correct.

It is and it isn't. I mean, I sometimes take it to an extreme.

All right, okay, there isn't anything good that can't be taken to an extreme. You could drink too much water. I'm not joking about that. You can drink too much water. But, uh, as a general rule, the easy way out doesn't— doesn't— is usually not the better way out. Now, so back to the glasses. So So folks, this is— so here's a tiny story here. So I experiment with glasses because I have to wear them anyway. I take the easy way out. I wear glasses all the time. So I, I have these two pair of glasses. So these are these red glasses. Here they are. Hi, everybody. And the— I see better with them because the prescription was done better on these glasses. But that's not— that's not here or there. So you said you like me in these more, right? Which, uh, which interestingly matters to me. So I'm raising an interesting issue: vanity. That's— I told you it triggered an actually serious issue, the question of vanity. What does it mean to be vain? So I care how I look. I think that's a good thing. Uh, the, the notion when, when people are accused— have you ever heard that she's vain or he's vain? What does that mean to you?

I've heard it less nowadays, interestingly, but to me it means someone who predicates their entire self-worth or personality off of Oh, that's the way that they appear to others.

Oh, you read it as really an intense critique.

Yes, I read it as not just the external but the internal. A vain person is someone who—

It's everything.

Yes.

Oh, that's interesting.

Who tries to make it seem like they're reading sophisticated books, for instance, when they really haven't read the book. Oh, I think that's a vain person. Oh, so that's interesting.

I've always associated vain, vanity, with looks, with preoccupation with how you look.

Well, I, I mean, I don't know who you may be, right? Well, the reason why I use that example of a person acting like they're reading, they're sophisticated or they're reading these intense books and they aren't, that is a way of trying to look different than how you actually are.

That's an effort to look up vain, Sean. I'm very curious what the dictionary says.

I'm sure the dictionary makes it more about appearances, but you've extrapolated it. Yes, and I've heard it used colloquially to mean deeper than just your looks.

Yeah, so that's why I'm curious if— God, is he unhelpful. Did you hear what he said?

No, what did he say?

The organic vessel that carries blood from one organ to another. That's what he got for—

Oh, you guys, all they do is joke all day in this office. Oh, oh yeah, don't look at you. Oh my gosh, I, I have to like— okay, yeah, I have to civilize them before the show.

They will keep going and going. I will admit I was— that, that was funny.

Oh my God, you gave him a compliment!

Are you okay? It bothers me. I did compliment him. It does bother me. Yeah, Merriam-Webster definition. Yeah. Oh, having or showing excessive pride in one's appearance or achievements.

Hmm, look who was right.

I like that.

I know, isn't it so naughty?

I didn't say a word while you did that. I just thought it was precious. I— the person who's walking around with Dostoevsky in order to make an impression That's what you were implying. I don't— I never would say that's vain. I would say it's a facade.

Yeah, no, there are other words that I would use before vain, but when you raise the issue—

so, but let's get back to the first definition and the one mostly used about looks. So when I hear somebody is accused a man or a woman, of being vain, I have almost always assumed it was not a valid critique.

I disagree.

Okay, yeah, so I'll make my case and then you make yours. I have heard it about people— let's say a woman, you know, she looks in the mirror to see how she looks And then they would think she does it excessively. And I don't know what excessively even means. Is it 10 times a day? Is it 3 times a day? Is it 30 times a day? I, I will say for the record, I think it's a good thing if, if both sexes care how they look. Can you care too much? Of course you can. As I said, you could drink too much water. I mean, there is nothing that can't be done in excess. I think you could pray too much, to be honest. Okay, why aren't you out there making a better world? You're sitting and praying all day. At a certain point, I think is too much. Others will disagree, that's fine. But there's nothing you can't do too much, it would seem. You could read too much because you're then you're not engaging with people. So But we— the dismissal of somebody for caring how they look. I, I want my— I'll give one final example. My mother— I— did you ever see a picture of my mother? Okay, I'll show you when you come over to the house next time. So my mother was beautiful till she died. And I'm not saying this because she was my mother. I'll prove it to you with pictures, and you could ask Sue, my wife. Who knew her. And she died at 89. My mother and I got great hair from her. I got beautiful white hair. Yeah, she— her hair was— and her complexion, she looked like she had had plastic surgery and never did.

That's how good her complexion was. Good plastic surgery, because there's bad plastic surgery.

That's correct. Good. She had zero wrinkles. I mean, it was— it was— she was a phenomenon.

What was her secret? Genetics?

Genetics, correct. But she really— she dressed up every day. She looked beautiful.

It's like my mom.

Is that right?

Oh yes.

Okay, so I admired my mother, and my father deeply appreciated this. His screensaver was "I love you, Hindi." That was his nickname for her.

Oh yeah, she was Hilda, right? Yeah, and Max.

Hilda and Max. And he called her Hindi. And, and So I, I learned to appreciate when a woman in particular, but men as well, care about how they look. Go ahead.

I do too. And my mother, like your mother, is a gorgeous woman. And she really glams herself up with good jewelry, good clothes. She doesn't put on, you know, copious amounts of makeup, but she'll put on lipstick and, and mascara. And she's, she's very put together. Anyone who knows my mom knows that to be true. And growing up, she would always say to me, I never want to embarrass you. When I pick you up from school or when I drop you off at swim practice or, you know, when your friends see me, if they come over to the house, I always want to look good because I don't want to embarrass you. So I agree with you, Dennis, that caring about your appearance is not a bad thing. It shows that you have self-respect and to my mother's point, it shows that you have respect for your family. But I can see why we may think differently on this issue because you're probably thinking of women of a previous generation who were called vain, and perhaps that was an unfair charge. The people in my generation, the women in my generation who are called vain deserve to be called vain because it's not that they are looking in the mirror 3 times a day as I do, as any woman does, or even 8 or 10 times a day. The, the, the women my age are generally sort of in my cohort are obsessive about it. They are obsessive about their weight, they're obsessive about their clothes, and it's all because, in my view, it's because of social media. They're obsessively trying to curate an image of perfection and of glamour of themselves.

So, and that's, okay, that's why I think it's a legitimate charge. Fair. I believe, I have no doubt that exists. I have no doubt. Forget, I know it exists.

And not everyone, by the way.

Not everyone. My read, though, about women of your generation is different. I would say they appear to me as less preoccupied with how they look than they should be.

Well, that's interesting. You know, as I was just—

They walk around almost in pajamas, I mean, in many cases. I am stunned at how little they, they seem to care about dressing nicely.

You're right. And as I was talking, I had, I had the thought that it— the pendulum has sort of swung in the other direction. Like 5 years ago, I guess it's not totally accurate for me to say that people my age continue to be— to care about their looks so much because now it used to be in vogue to care excessively about your appearance. Now the pendulum has swung in the other direction where it's cool to be seen as like earthy and a little dirty and have chipped— we talked about this a few episodes ago—

have chipped nails and untamed hair and an advertisement of I don't care what I wear. Yes, why would I want to appear attractive, let alone even sexy? And I don't mean ridiculously so.

So let me— here's where my argument comes full circle, though. I think those people are vain because they're not vain in the conventional way where they care about looking good. They're vain in an unconventional way where they care about looking bad. But there's— the point is they're still caring so much. The person who has untamed hair, I can promise you, checked themselves out in the mirror to make sure that their hair was untamed so they looked earthy and like a Cal Berkeley Birkenstock girl. It's, it's, it's a, it's vanity, but literally dressed up differently.

Well, then let me say I prefer the original.

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Having said that, explain to me something. I'm not sure it has an explanation. So, and I admit this is a generational issue because this did— this was not when I was your age. Nobody wore ripped jeans. Do you have an explanation for why that is appealing? I don't.

This is not especially profound, but I just think it It looks young, and I mean, there's obviously— there's gradations of ripped jeans.

Well, no, no, forget—

but the normal tattered jeans, I think, are all right. Weird.

So, but by the way, I'm not attacking them. This is not—

no, I know it's not. I know it's not.

I, I— it's, it, it's a, uh, befuddlement. It has to— it has to have an origin. So you see it and and your first word was young.

So if a 45-year-old woman wore ripped jeans, I would find that to be odd.

That— is there anything else a 45-year-old woman could wear that you would find odd? If she wore a shorter skirt and she had the legs to do it, let's say, that, that wouldn't be—

in other words, it would depend on the length. Like a really short—

no, no, obviously.

Okay, but a short skirt, no, right?

Exactly. So the only reason I ask is, can you think of anything else that is solely in the province of a young woman in clothing?

You mean that a 40-year-old shouldn't wear?

Yes.

I do think it looks a bit undignified when an older— not that 40 is old, but when an older woman wears something that's, uh, really tight-skinned or shows a lot of their breasts or sometimes, and this shows that we live in LA because I never saw this when I lived in Boston, but in LA sometimes I'll see older women wearing crop tops. I think that's undignified. I would not do that when I'm that age.

So crop tops and ripped jeans.

I mean, a little bit, like a little tear in the jeans to make it look edgy is fine. But like tattered jeans, that's odd to me. That's odd that anyone would wear them.

You have a first-class mind. So I'm curious, putting you on the spot, not in a bad way, just having to think spontaneously right now. What is the origin of the Toran gene? Is it— it's, it's got to have— it can't just be— I, I agree that it now means I'm young, so it has no larger meaning, but it had to begin as having— it had to resonate with people to catch on. So is it, I'm not rich?

I think actually it harkens back to the affect conversation or the vanity conversation. I think it's an attempt to— maybe it came from the place of making it seem like you literally tore them as you were walking out of a room and your jeans got caught on the door handle and they tore. Maybe it was this way of making you look busy or like you didn't care so much about your appearance that you were wearing this torn jean and it was just cool that you didn't care to go patch it up and you continued about your day wearing it. I don't know, that's my speculation. I have no idea. If you saw—

I never thought to ask this or I never thought about this, but I'm curious, if you saw a guy— men wear jeans and women wear jeans.

If disqualified as far as dating me? No. If you, if you are a guy wearing ripped jeans? No.

So this is very interesting.

It is.

Did you ever see a guy in ripped jeans?

Yes.

Oh, you're kidding.

Of course, Dennis. Have you ever been to the Venice Beach Boardwalk? Have you ever been out in LA?

So I, I will go on record as saying if a guy wears ripped jeans, my assumption is his masculinity level is between 1 and 2 on a scale of 100.

Oh gosh, you agree? Totally. If a, if a guy showed up wearing ripped jeans on a date, I think I would stand up and walk out.

Would you leave him with your credit card?

If we wouldn't even get— we wouldn't order anything.

You have a couple of—

I would just walk out.

Theories in the booth. All right, let's hear them. Yeah.

We should do a jingle. Theories in the Booth. Uh-huh. What?

That is bizarre. There's a big underground— what is it? Used Levi's market in Japan. Oh, okay. I think that is so bizarre. Okay. Yeah. What is the other theory? It came out of the music scene, punk rock. Okay, that may be okay. That's true. Which was the, the anti-order world, the overthrowing. It's stodgy to wear regular pants. So what was my original one? Oh, it was anti-wealth. Yeah. I look at how poor I am.

Yeah, I don't think it's that. I think it's anti-conventionality, anti-tradition. That's right. And as I was trying to, but perhaps not eloquently say earlier, it's trying to look casual and cool and uncaring. The ultimate irony is you take a perfectly fine pair of jeans and then you rip them to make them look ripped. So it's, it's the dead opposite of being casual.

Really interesting that there really is a gender-based wearing of this.

This is fascinating. And I can't—

it never occurred to me until we discussed.

I can't really figure— I'm sure with more thought Hopefully I'll come to something, but right now I can't really think of why it is that I'm so repulsed by men wearing them.

Okay, so part of it might be— this is why this is so interesting to me. Look, it's the human condition. I'm fascinated by it. So when a woman wears ripped jeans, you see part of her leg. I mean, it's just a fact that the bigger the rip, the more of her leg you see. Showing your body is feminine. It's just the way it is. And it's not masculine for a man to do that.

Relatedly, I— and this could be perceived as a bold or perhaps unfair statement, but bear with me— I don't like it when men wear casual clothes. I tend to see them as— I'm not saying that I want men to wear suits and ties all day, though I do love when they do, I think it looks great. But sometimes when I see like a guy wearing board shorts and a kind of loose, plain shirt, I just think, oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I just—

you may be, you may be in a minority of women.

I probably am.

I don't know.

Women my age?

Yeah, your age.

Oh, I'm like the only one that would probably think this way. I thought you were going to say women generally. I bet I'm—

well, So by the way, I happen to think this is actually an important discussion. The whole thing is, but what I'm about to say is particularly important. I have broadcast, I have written about the incredible significance of clothing. And we live in the age of foolishness, the opposite of wisdom, thinks that it is not important And by the way, among my biggest supporters in America are religious Christians, or evangelical Christians, traditional Catholics, practicing Mormons. And yet I get amazing amount of pushback when I say you should dress up to go to church. Did you know this? Did I tell you this?

Boy, that's so— it's like—

It's just fascinating.

The reason why, like, When you said that you had to do an hour on why it's important to keep the myth of Santa alive for children, I— my jaw dropped that you even had to do that. You get pushback for saying that.

That is why I know more about life than most people who would, let's say, write a Bible commentary. It's not that I know more Bible than they— many of them know more Bible than I, but I interact with humanity more than they do. My talk show is my human laboratory.

I love it when you say that.

And it's the truth. I would never know this. I— if you would have asked me without having a talk show, uh, do most or do half the Christians of this country think it's irrelevant what you wear to church? Which is— what, are you nuts? Of course they think you should have your Sunday best for Sunday church. That's what it was called, Sunday best. That's— it's not a phrase you probably ever heard, correct?

I've heard it, but—

but now you know what it is. Yes, you wore your Sunday best to on Sunday because it was church day. And Christian after Christian— oddly enough, it's the only arena where Jews are more conservative than Christians. Jews do dress up for synagogue, even liberal Jews. Anyway, the ones who go to synagogue anyway, they call up and they say, God doesn't care how you dress. What you wear to church. And I'm thinking, wow, we have a different conception of God. God doesn't care? You mean if you wear flip-flops to church, or you wear a jacket and tie to church, or a lovely skirt and blouse, God doesn't give a damn? I— oh, because Jesus wore sandals. Okay, this is Shalom Theologian chiming in. This is what I have to live.

Theories from the box.

Yes. Okay. Uh, if Jesus— it would be interesting, you know, because 'What Would Jesus Do' is a very famous Christian phrase, WWJD. So if Jesus came back— by the way, I used to ask this question. We're going on a slight tangent. We'll get right.

Welcome to Dennis and Julie.

That's right. You'll love this. So my first show was with priests, ministers, and rabbis every week, different ones every week. So very— and callers. So callers would often ask the Christian clergy, the Catholic and the Protestant, if Jesus came back, where would he go to services? And every single Catholic and Protestant, liberal or traditional, said to a synagogue.

Or obviously, as you say, Jesus never read the New Testament.

That's right.

That blew my mind when you said that.

Yeah, people know it to be true, but they never think it through. So would— if Jesus came back, would he say God doesn't— now, he might. It's an interesting question.

Yet would he say what? God doesn't care about your clothing, right? He would probably say—

but wait, wait, wait, I'm so passionate.

No, no, no, I shouldn't interrupt.

No, no, no, you never— it's a non-issue. You. You never interrupt.

The—

would the Christian who says God doesn't care what you wear to church then say all the Christians who preceded me in America were wrong? They all thought God did care. Either you're right or they're right.

I think Jesus would say that God doesn't care about your clothing as much as he cares about other things. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't care about your clothing at all, because as I said when I was talking about my mom, it's respect for other people.

That's the whole point.

And you know, I have— we've probably talked about it on this program, but the point that we brought up earlier of the in vogue trend nowadays where people like to look a bit dirty or untamed or as I said earlier, earthy. I've thought a lot about why that is. And I think that a lot of it is to give a giant F you to civilization. Civilization.

Absolutely.

I think it's like they want to seem abrasive and in your face.

Nonconformist.

Yes, like I am showing my gut out with my belly button piercing and my hair hasn't been washed in days and my armpit hair's coming out and you can't do anything about it. It's just a big act of defiance. It's an F you to civilization. That's exactly what it is. So when you dress nicely, it's the opposite of an F you to civilization. You're showing that you have respect for—

You identify with the past.

Yes, and that you have a sense of duty to the person walking next to you on the street that you don't even know. You have a sense of duty to not be abrasive to their eyes and to seem like a, I don't know, a responsible, pulled-together citizen.

I think that that's the message.

It's just as important as holding open a door for someone or not littering.

I think that's why the tattoo phenomenon began. I am dissociating from the X generation, from the from the order is it, but like the ripped jeans, it takes on a life of its own.

I've worn ripped jeans before. I mean, very lightly ripped, but yeah, I've worn them. I think they're cool.

Ripped jeans? Oh, I wasn't complaining. I was simply noting.

But that sounds kind of an act of defiance.

I've come on a very interesting I'm going to— John asked me an interesting question. Should men wear ties to baseball games? I want to confront that in a moment. But I did want to say something else, but I'll answer that first. If you look, I don't know if you've ever seen this, you should look on the internet for photos. Just put in baseball game 1955.

Oh, it's like from a—

it's like your people. So this is critical. Men and women dressed better, far better, for baseball games in the 1950s than for church today.

My dad told me recently that when he was younger and he would get on a plane, he would, he would wear a jacket.

I remember when my mother sent me— I was 7 years old. Did you know this? I, I, my parents put me on an airplane when I was 7. And they didn't have any rules then. None. I went on the plane like any 50-year-old went on the plane. Nobody took care of me. No forms were filled out. The flight attendants paid no attention.

I would kill to see— not kill. I would love to see a video of 7-year-old Dennis just to see what you look like sitting on a plane being adulty. Oh my gosh.

All right, I'll show you how adulty this is. How? If anyone were to ask, what were you like as a kid? Here is the story I will tell. So my parents sent me for 6 weeks at a time to my beloved Aunt Chippy, one of my favorite relatives. I adored her. She lived in Miami well before Miami was anything.

I think you told this. Did I tell it on the program?

I did. Oh, I hate repeating.

No, it's okay. I mean, I can't even honestly remember a lot of the story. So she showed you a lot of affection, right? Whereas—

oh, totally, that's right. Yes, correct. She really loved me up. So I loved being with her 6 weeks, which is amazing that my parents sent me, but I'm thrilled they did. Anyway, I was 7 years old, flew alone, flew back alone. So there were 2 great parts to this story. I arrive at the airport in New York And it was called Idlewild. This is before it was even called Kennedy. And I arrived there and my parents are not there.

What? Did they forget about you?

No, they came late, which is, by the way— oh my gosh, I don't hold this against them.

I know you don't, but with all due respect to them, really?

Yes, yes, that's— it's precious This is— it's— this story encapsulates my early life, but, um, the, the highlight is coming up. So they're late. I didn't give a damn. It meant nothing to me. I got my own luggage, and then I got a porter to carry my luggage. As they came in, I was tipping the porter. I was a 7-year-old giving the guy a tip.

Oh my gosh. Dennis, what the heck?

Yeah, I was Mr. Independent at birth.

I, I love your attitude. I mean, to state the obvious, there's— there would be so many people today who would go, my parents didn't show me any love, they didn't pick me, and you just laugh at it.

I totally—

so the right healthy attitude.

Of course it is. Everybody on Earth can be annoyed with their parents as an adult. Everybody on earth is annoyed when they're a kid at some point. It's— if you're never annoyed with your parent when you're a kid, they're not doing a good job. That's just— that's a rule. So, but, but when you grow up, it's time to grow up. Hello, you were raised by mortal human beings, not by gods. They, they had issues like you have issues. I mean, it is a wonder that anybody ends up healthy since we're all raised by human beings and human beings are so flawed.

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Someone we both know, Dr. Stephen Marmer, my dear friend and a great psychiatrist, He, he has taught me the term splitting.

Oh, what is that?

Yes, so I, I can't fully define it, but it's, it's, it applies to, uh, yeah, I think I can define it. Where you think a person is either perfect or awful, and that's what children do to parents. They're either perfect or they're horrible. It's like the first time your parent says, don't curse, don't curse, don't curse, then somebody cuts them off and they go, oh, and then they use an expletive. Oh, you're a hypocrite! You are such a phony! What, fraud?

Fraud?

Yes, exactly. That's splitting. Whereas one of my favorite realizations, and it's amazing to me that I didn't have this earlier, is— you'll love this line, and I, and I, I developed it just in the last 5 years— everyone is a package.

We've discussed this.

It's so big.

It is. It's, it's everything. Everyone is a package.

Everyone. Of course, that's exactly— everyone, every nation, every religion. If you, if you want perfection, and people do, and that's childish, that, that's what the left does. That's why they, they're, they're children. Every leftist is a child. Not every liberal, not every conservative, but every leftist is a child because they— oh, America is imperfect, it stinks. That's it. That's their stupid immature view. Of, of the country. Of course it's imperfect, it's made up of human beings. So you— but, and you measure it versus other nations, not against your, your childish perception of perfection. But that's what we do to parents.

And, and people don't do it to themselves. They don't do this.

They accept their flaw.

Yeah, I do it with myself. I don't do it with my parents. But I—

when you just said it, I thought, oh my gosh, that's Just for the record, I know that she does it.

I do. I was thinking that yesterday. I either think I'm so— I mean, actually, no, I never think I'm so great, but I— but I— the way I think of myself in my mind is I'm either succeeding and killing it or utterly failing, or I'm beyond delinquent, in the gutter, terrible, wretched, shouldn't show my face, awful.

It is interesting.

I don't do that with other people though.

Well, that's good, but you shouldn't do it with yourself.

I know, I'm working on it.

You're— that— I'm surprised then, in light of your having that, that you would ever have anything published, because you'll always think, oh my God, I need to edit it more.

Human beings are complicated. It's a, it's a, it's a good point.

I don't know how You know, by the way, it is true for my books. I will say, at a given point, I just say to myself, I know it could be better, I, I have to send it in. I will never write a book.

And, and, and there also comes a point where by making it better, you actually make it worse. Because part— and this is what I'm realizing with, with my broadcast, because I care so much about giving people a fact-rich analysis of the news. As important as facts and, you know, statistics and all of that is, a story component and having vitality to the message that you're trying to give, I think, is more important than throwing a million facts at people. So there's a risk when you keep working on something, you lose the soul of the piece.

Well, I will tell you that I love when you throw facts because I want to learn and learn and learn and learn. And he said into my earphones, she's excellent. It's innately, it's a gift, he said.

I'm not going to stop doing it, A, because it's just how I operate, right?

Well, you'll have to figure out a happy medium, but I will say If I'm not learning either insight or facts from a talk show host, I don't listen.

Well, that's part— one of the things that I hate when I'm listening to other people, I hate when I sense that they are trying to waste or kill time.

Exactly.

I hate— that drives me nuts. And right, and I know that sometimes I take it to an extreme because I just like pack in so much.

I love your extreme.

I never ever want a listener of mine to think that I'm BSing them. I want to put as many facts in their arsenal because I've spent hours and hours digging through and finding these facts and I want to serve it up on a platter to people to make it easy so when they go out into the world and they have a debate at the dinner table with some leftist freak, they can pull it out. Yes. What about talk shows?

I interrupted you then.

How dare you? I'm leaving.

If you leave, then it's just the Dennis and broadcast.

The Dennis and Sean and Rixie and everyone from the booth.

Exactly, exactly. So I raised the issue with my listeners. I'm thinking of adding a fourth dedicated hour. I have male, female, I have happiness, I have ultimate issues hour. And I'm thinking of having an hour on religion every week.

I think it is a brilliant idea.

I think so because I keep telling people without it we're doomed.

You have to. You absolutely have to.

And then, and then I ignore it. I'm not giving you the teachings and I could just read from my rational Bible.

I actually can't believe you haven't done it before. I mean, it makes it because you, you—

well, the Ultimate Issues Hour sometimes touches on it, but in the Ultimate Issues Hour I don't teach religion, I teach the importance of religion. That's not the same thing.

I would love to see you talk about the New Testament too in that.

Well, okay, so I have religion. Okay, I'll tell you why I don't, and I, I think it's very important that, uh, that I say this. I think people should learn about a religion from those who believe in it, from those who practice it. The outsider can be sympathetic, empathetic, fair-minded, but it's— I'm trying to think of an analogy. That was the reason for my, my, my silence here. Can somebody who doesn't love classical music teach classical music? I'm not sure they can teach— well, you know, the relative minor of C major is A minor. Okay, they could teach you how music is constructed, or that Beethoven took this this theme from, from Mozart or Haydn, or, you know, they could do a whole host of things. But I, I, I, I want a Christian to teach me Christianity.

Point taken. But you, though you don't believe in Christianity, you have respect for it and reverence for it.

Great, great deal.

And you, and you also have an astounding command of knowledge about it. So I just, I think it would be—

I'm not saying the whole time, but I think you should I could see a Christian, even a Christian who really, uh, who really respects me and he buys my Rational Bible Series, saying or thinking or feeling— and they would all be legit— yeah, but he doesn't believe in it. How can I teach a teaching that— uh, look, well, here's an interesting— so I'll give you I'll make the case for you for a moment, even though I still believe that it should be left to Christians to teach Christianity, etc., etc. So when Jesus says, I am the way— what is it? I am the way, the light. Do you know the verse?

I don't.

Sean, get the verse for me, would you? Uh, I, I, I'm not good at quoting verses that I, I didn't learn in Hebrew. They're the ones I know from, from the Old Testament. 'And no one comes to the Father except through me.' So I mean, that's— so here, here, how do I deal with that as a non-Christian? 'No one comes to the Father except through me,' or through the— 'I am the way and the truth and the light— the life.' Sorry, right? 'No one comes to the Father except through me.' I got it more or less. Okay, the second part anyway. John 4:16. Okay, so that is how Christians understand that if you do not believe in Christ, in Jesus Christ, you cannot be saved. And, and my dear Christian friends are not happy about it. They want me saved. They love me. They want everybody saved in the final analysis. But they have a— a lot of them have a real affection for me. I've done a lot of good work, even for Christianity. I brought a lot of people back to church, a lot of people. So they're not happy that— but they— that they are— they, they are— I don't want to use the word stuck, but I guess they would even say— look, these are not my words, these are God's words. I didn't make this up. I am merely the deliverer of the news. If you don't believe in Christ, you can't be saved. But I don't know why that verse means that. So I would bring a different perspective with respect for the verse. But if we're going to take the Protestant idea of sola scriptura, only scripture, seriously, that each person reads the scripture and understands it to the best of his ability, and you don't have the mediating authority of the church, which is what Luther did ultimately. You read the scripture, end of issue. Why does no one comes to the Father except through the Son, or except through me— why does that mean that you have to believe that in order to be saved.

I have the same view. I think it's that you should try to embody the values—

or no, of Jesus— or, or even— I'll, I'll— no, I'll go further than that. That, that might be too generic. Let us say that's true. I, I am the conduit. I am the way to the Father. No one comes to the Father except through me. But he's not saying, and if you don't believe that, you go to hell. He's not— I don't think he's saying that. Well, he is saying only I am the way through to the Father.

Is he— does he say only in that verse? Because if it's only, then it does imply that— I mean, not just imply, it means that there's no other way.

Um, no, no one comes through the Father except through me.

No one except That's pretty stark to me.

So you think it means that—

and I think it's pretty absolutist. I don't think it leaves—

I agree, but whether— I don't know why that— that the inevitable— excuse me, why the exclusive interpretation of that verse is if you don't believe that, you are doomed. It's John 14:6. Wait a minute, what did you say originally? 614? 416? And it's 146?

Fired.

Hugo should go to the punishment room. I mean, that is a major blow to the—

okay, we have a punishment room and we have a spider room. Remember when we were giving Sean the spider? I said, where are you gonna put it? And he said the spider room.

You can't talk while he's punished. I'm sorry, the people have to appreciate that we have standards on this show.

Uh, wait, but was there a sound?

Oh, that's right, you don't hear, only I do.

I didn't understand. Okay.

Oh yes, my apologies. No, she— no, she should not go. She should go to the earphones room. So, okay, um, right, I am the way and the truth and the life, right? 'No one comes to the Father except through me.' Why do you think that that can only mean that if you don't believe that, you go to hell? Because of the 'no one' and the 'except through me.' See, okay, so you may be right, and most Christians would certainly say you're right.

I mean, I, I—

but by the way, this is what— no, no, that's a separate issue. The question is not whether you believe it, it's whether that is what Jesus meant.

I think that is.

Okay, fine. It also may be— so here is a perfect example. I read that. If I were to ask, uh, 100 Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Shintoists, this— here, here is a verse from the Christian Bible. The New Testament, and it is Jesus saying, 'No one comes through the Father except through me.' Do you believe that that means that if you don't believe that, you go to hell? I bet you 80% would say, 'I, I don't see why it means that.' Why? Because he is saying, 'I am, I am the, I am the, uh, the roadway to the Father. Whether you accept that or not, it— I don't know. It seems to me, and I'm not even— by the way, I'm not even trying to make the case because I'm not Christian. I'm trying— I have no issue if a Christian believes that. God bless you. The most of the finest people I know are Christians, right? But I don't know why I— you grew up even— you grew up in a Christian world. You, you didn't go to church regularly, but you grew up in a Christian. So it is so taken for granted that, that that's what that verse means. But I did not grow up in a Christian world, right? And I know the Christian world holds you must believe in— or at least, by the way, Catholics, the Catholic Church does not hold that any longer, right? Okay, but that's a separate issue. So yeah, so how did, how did even— forget liberal popes like Francis, but how did Benedict, who was totally conservative, how, how would he argue We can't say for certain if you're not a Christian, you're not saved. That—

because I think he probably made the value— I mean, I have no idea, but if I were make— if I were him, I would make the argument that— or is it if I were he? So this is where I go back and—

if I were he—

well, that's what— that, that's important.

Has to be the object of a verb, and is is not a verb that has an object.

Only you, only you could get that.

That's probably true, sadly.

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I— right. I hear you. I think that— I think it's too broad a read of that verse. All, all I'm saying is a Christian could say that is— that is our belief, that the, the way to come to the Father is through the Son. And if you end up with the Father, it is through me. So I guess then the Christian would say, okay, so Julie was right, it means exactly what we have thought. If you don't believe that, then you don't get to the Father. But that's— I don't know why he's saying that. He would say He would have said, if you don't believe this, you don't get to the Father.

Well, that's an interesting argument about— that's not the phrasing.

Yes, the phrasing is critical.

He would— look, God is quite overt about things that he wants or condemns. Yes, that, that's it. That's a— that's quite a compelling argument because, you know, he, he's very clear in, in just the first few verses of Genesis what's good and what's not good.

Yes. And maybe when you will die you will realize that you got— you got— you get to the Father through me.

See, I think that that is a, uh, purposely ambiguous statement, because I believe that you don't have to believe in Christ as the Messiah to be saved. I believe that you have to live according to the values of Christ to be saved.

I have a lot of issues with my fellow Jews, as is well known, But so I will say, however, I even have issues with some aspects of traditional Judaism, although I'm a traditional Jew in most senses. But I do— my reverence for Judaism emanates primarily, not exclusively— there are many arenas from the fact that Judaism believes that you are set— God assesses you by your behavior. You, you can even be an atheist and go to heaven, and you could be a Jew and go to hell. And by the way, just for the Jews who are listening, and even for the non-Jews who think Jews don't believe in hell, That's a common statement. It's dishonest. We may not use the term, although there is a term, Gehinnom, but one of the 13 principles of the Jewish faith as enunciated by the universally accepted Rambam, Maimonides, 12th century, one of the 13 principles of the Jewish faith is that there is reward and punishment after death. So he doesn't use the words heaven and hell, but what does reward and punishment mean? Heaven and hell, they're synonymous. So it's dishonest to say Judaism doesn't believe in hell. Judaism believes that Hitler is punished, and if you believe that, then you believe in hell. Is it eternal hell? I don't know. That's God's business, not mine. I can only say that if there isn't reward and punishment after this life, then God is either unjust or there is no God.

I was having a fascinating discussion over Christmas. I was about to call it Christmas break. You can see that I still use college lingo. There was no Christmas break. There was just Christmas. In college you get the whole week or two weeks off.

They called it Christmas break? They didn't say—

Oh, that's true. No, they call it holiday. They call it winter or holiday break, but colloquially you call it Christmas break. Anyway, over my non-existent Christmas break, I had a very interesting discussion with someone about about religion, because this person is a staunch atheist. And I said to him, what incentive is there for people to behave well if there aren't religious values that are binding them and there isn't an afterlife that rewards them for good behavior and punishes them for bad behavior? What is—

What did he say?

He said societal, like a collective buy-in in society that you need to— Right.

It shows how naive these people are. There's always a collective buy-in, but Nazi Germany had a collective buy-in. Communist Soviet Union had a collective buy-in, and the collective buy-in was evil.

It's quite a Western privileged person's position.

Well, it's a naive Western privileged person's position. What if the collective is bad? Then we're doomed. And that's exactly the case.

I wish I had responded that way. I think that's a very— that's—

well, that is the answer.

That is the answer. Yes, I said— I think the way I—

right, you either get— you either answer to God or the collective. That's exactly correct.

That's a great way of putting it. It's true. How did we— I was just thinking as we were talking about the Johnverse, or is it the Lukeverse?

No, John.

John. Only on Dennis and Julie, I'm not even trying to say it as a compliment to us, but it's just only on Dennis and Julie can we start off talking about ripped jeans and then 20 minutes later, we're in the depths of this discussion about— No, the beauty.

I'll tell you the beauty.

It's so fun. The way life should be.

It's also organic. It's not, okay, let's move on.

We had no— we have no idea what we're going to talk about ever.

The whole thing's unique. That's one of the reasons.

So I want to—

you didn't know. I said I'm going to talk about this. You had no idea.

You said you're going to start off with a fun thing. I had no idea where it was going to go. I want to go back quickly because I'm just quite curious to this discussion that we were having about clothing. So you grew up wearing a jacket and tie on the airplane or at a baseball game. When did that change?

'60s. Everything changed in the '60s, basically, uh, during the Vietnam War and Kennedy's assassination. The '60s overturned everything. The baby boomers, that is us born after World War II, for the next, like, 18 years or whatever the cutoff date is, screwed up everything. Not me, by the way. I knew my generation was, was out to lunch morally and intellectually. When I, when I was at Columbia in the early '70s in graduate school, I believed that I was— with one exception, I knew one other kid— I believed I, I was the only one who had my values. I was as— I would say I was as alone in my values at Columbia in the '70s as you were at Harvard last year. Well, that is— isn't that amazing when you think about it? That's a long time ago. And, uh, that— but I couldn't believe it. I remember almost— it's very hard to get me depressed. I almost got depressed when I watched what was going on. When I saw students take over professors' offices and president of the college office and dean's offices, just take them over, I remember thinking, I don't understand. I just thought, I don't understand what's happening.

Well, I find it to be the epitome of pomposity to do that. Oh, you think you know better.

Oh, of course they do. I mean, never trust anyone over 30.

You're, you're 17, 18, 19, or 20 years old and you're going into it.

Oh, the problem—

well, they go, unfortunately, I have the right to sit on your carpet because you're stupid.

And the World War II generation spoiled the baby boomers. That's the tragedy. A great generation screwed up in, in raising the kids. Because as you say now, and I said when I was your age, they gave them everything they didn't have and gave them nothing that they did have. They didn't give them America. They didn't give them religion. They didn't give them traditional values. When, when, when my generation of kids would say, never trust anyone over 30, I remember thinking, are they out of their effing minds? Never trust anyone over 30. First of all, I just thought of all the adults that I trusted, the teachers that I had, some of the teachers that I admired from high school. And then I thought even broader, I trust Moses, guys, 3,000 years old.

It's really amazing that you grew up with that, and I feel sad for people who don't. You asked me, I think it was last episode or the episode before, do I wish that I was raised with with a religious outlook? And I answered no, because I think that everything in my life led me to where I am now. But as I said, I'm certainly going to raise my kids that way, because it's really a magical— it's a magical thing having religion in your life. It's like putting— I think I said this— it's like putting on a pair of glasses with a beautiful tint to them. You see things so much differently and for the better. You must, you must do that religion hour.

I, I think I would.

And I still think you should do the New Testament because even what— look at this conversation that we had. Look at that. I mean, that's really important.

Well, I'll tell you an interesting thing. People aren't talking about my wife, who, who is a Jew, but she was— came from an evangelical Christian, beautiful background. So we started reading the New Testament together at at one point, and I would raise issues, and they were all brand new to her.

That's—

yes, wait, but here's the interest. There's a total flip side. She is one of the editors of my Rational Bible Commentary. She, not having been raised Jewish, she raises issues I never heard, and it's one of the reasons it's so good, the Rational Bible. It, it incorporates the non-Jew's instinctive reaction to something. But I did— I raised questions that were just, to me, common sense, which is what she raises with the Torah issue.

Well, you just made an argument for yourself as to why you should do that.

Oh, that's it.

And at the very least, you know, we were talking about putting facts in people's arsenals that they can, you know, carry out into the world. Even if you just do that, even if you just do like a sort of history religious hour on the New Testament, I promise you it will be— that alone would have been worth it. Because, I mean, yes, I— and I talk about the Rational Bible all the time on this program and with other people. Yes, I became religious through the Rational Bible. But in addition, I just, I feel like I understand history so much more.

Well, let me— we have to end, and I want to leave you with a happy thought. About you not being raised in a religious world. Coming to religion as an adult is a high.

Don't I know it.

It's a, it's a risk because if you can't depend on your kid ever doing that— you, you search for truth, you're rare. But if you do come to it as an adult, there's a— it's tremendous.

It's changed my life.

Now, oh, I have a great question for another time. Can I get you— and by the way, it's not important to me, I'm just asking this— can I get you to fall in love with classical music?

Oh gosh, I was talking about that with Dr. Marmor because, you know, it's very important to me, not in the shallow, I'm-trying-to-seem-sophisticated way that I referred to people earlier in this broadcast having. I really want to be a worldly person, and I'm a bit ashamed of myself that I I am not conversant in the topic of classical music, that I haven't really—

right.

So, so yes, the answer is yes.

You correct me.

What, what did—

what was so funny? It's so bloody impressive what you said, by the way.

Really?

I don't judge you at all. You, you should know about it, but if you don't— I never fell in love with ballet. I tried. I, I subscribed to the New York Times.

Yeah, but classical music is is a benchmark of Western civilization.

All right, but if you don't emotionally respond, you won't emotionally respond.

No, it's—

you have to emotionally respond.

I haven't taken the time to see if that's what I said.

The reason I posed the question, can I get you to fall in love? I said fall in love, not know about.

I did a segment on, on my show Timeless the other day about music and how much it's changed. And I do think one of the reasons— I mean, I've heard— I've probably listened to— you're gonna shudder when I say this, I probably listened to like 5 classical music songs in my entire life. When I do hear it, it sounds slow and, so sorry Dennis, a little bit boring to me because I have grown up listening to this, as I call it, self-aggrandizing, loud, energetic music.

At your age, I rarely like the slow movements.

Really?

If it makes you feel any better.

Oh, we should talk about that. That's very interesting.

Correct.

Write to me at julie@julie-hartman.com. I've been so bad about responding to people. I am so sorry, but I love hearing from you. And I know I say this all the time, but I send them to Dennis. And shout out to our dear friend in Germany who I didn't respond to because I'm awful. I've been so busy. I will respond to you, William. He— that was just a young man.

I have the chills when I think of that letter.

And I just want to share with the viewers, it's so funny. He wrote to me and it was just like, it was a marvelous letter about about how much he admires Dennis and this, the state of affairs in Germany. And he said, you know, Julie, I would offer myself up for marriage, but I'm gay and live 6,000 miles away.

There were two problems.

And he said, I know Dennis would love this.

Yeah, I loved it. I did love it. It's correct. See you next week, everybody.

See ya, and Happy New Year.