Creating a Profitable Practice using Fee Negotiations with Kelsey Porter of Beacon PPO Solution

go through, increase your PPOs as much as you possibly can, get every nickel and dime you can from the insurance companies before you write off removing participation. Because the goal there is to take your bottom line and put it up through something like PPO negotiations. Then it puts you in a whole different situation where maybe you can be like, okay, we have tons of patients coming to the office, we are getting paid well on on those patients, we can go ahead and maybe add an associate and they can start taking on that. Sometimes that means that the main dentist can decide, you know what, I'm not going to take this low-paying plan, I can move off of that, and then kind of work in a way that they're getting more even fee-for-service, um, but it doesn't lose volume for the practice.

This is Growth in Dentistry, a Dental Intelligence podcast where we ask the question, what does growth in dentistry mean to you? I'm Steve Jensen, a data Dental Nerd, your host. Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Growth in Dentistry podcast. Super excited for today's conversation. It is getting harder and harder to run a profitable dental practice in the United States for so many reasons, and we're going to talk about some ways we can think about improving the business without having to see way more patients, without having to take on way more Invisalign cases or expand what you're doing clinically. We're gonna have a really fun conversation around fee negotiation. Now before I introduce my guest, a quick shout out to the marketing team at Dental Intelligence for sponsoring this podcast week after week. A lot of work goes in behind the scenes. And as always, they have a special offer for the guests and fellow listeners of the pod. For anyone, if you've not checked out DI in a long time or you've never checked it out, they are offering a $50 gift card just for taking a demo. Now if you don't know what DI is, They have everything from giving you basically like a business x-ray of your dental practice to give you all the numbers and reports in one cool dashboard, all the way to engaging with your patients, automated communications, digital forms that write back to Dentrix, Eaglesoft, Open Dental, revenue cycle management things like insurance claims management portals where you can submit your claims and see their status, as well as collecting past due balances from patients with their payments and RCM tools. So they are doing so many things that are super cool. If you've not checked it out, I don't know a while, or you didn't know they do those things and you want to check it out now. It's definitely a cool way to consolidate a lot of the tools you're using today. So, okay, with that out of the way, I want to introduce Kelsey Porter. So hello, Kelsey, welcome to the show. How are you?

Hello, I'm great. How about yourself?

So good. So I'll highlight Kelsey. Kelsey, if you guys didn't know this, DI Dental Intelligence is located, headquartered in Utah, and Kelsey is a fellow Utah person. She just lives like 15 minutes away from her office. And Kelsey and a group of highly, highly great people. Yeah, I don't know how I want to say that. Like, like experts in the field started Beacon PPO about 4 years ago, 4+ years ago. And they've got combined over 20 years of experience in fee negotiation working with how do I run a PPO-driven practice? And still be profitable. What are like the common missteps that people make? We're gonna talk about how do I think about doing this? How often do I think about negotiating my fees? And even we'll talk about like how do you engage with a business like Kelsey? Like how do I get started? What's the process? We'll kind of talk through this whole thing. But first, Kelsey, I wanna hear from you. Like how did you end up in the fee negotiation business? I don't think any kid in grade school or junior high fills out their career form and says, you know what, like, I'm going to do fee negotiation for dentists, and that's not on like the bingo card. So talk me through how you got here.

It's actually such a niche. I kind of tripped into it by just getting a job at a company that does PPO fee negotiations.

Okay.

And at the time, and when I applied, I had no idea what that meant because it's not really something that is— no one really knows what that even is in a general sense. So when people were like, what do you do there? It's like, well, It's a long story, but I actually started working there. I worked there for about 11 years.

Cool.

And within the first few months, kind of worked my way up to where I was really grasping and actually changing the way that things were done in the industry with PPO negotiations. It's a lot more complicated than you initially would think.

Yeah.

And we'll kind of get into a little bit of that, but myself and my sister Bailey Both have combined experience. We both co-own and started Beacon PPO Solutions, and we each have unique background, about 10 years apiece in doing PPO negotiations.

So talk me through, you know, some of the basics. So I'm a dentist. I mentioned to you before the show, but I'll mention to listeners, you know, I go speak around the country and I'll ask folks, like, that's a common question I like to ask them because there are only a few levers you can pull to improve the profits of a dental practice. And one of those is like how many appointments we complete. Like we can see way more patients, but that's a pretty stressful way to increase our profits.

Right.

Because like I have to like schedule more people or I have to hire more hygienists and associates to like get that volume. But the next way I can improve my production or my profits in the business is I can improve my production per visit or my like production per appointment.

Right.

If you look at it that way.

And without— Go ahead. Without even changing how much— how many patients are coming in the practice.

Yeah.

So, you know, the profitability of, you know, doing a crown, um, if you can negotiate that up and have each insurance company sending you an extra $200 per claim every time you do a crown, that money really adds up. So it's like you can continue to do the same amount of business you're doing, and if you work on negotiating your fee schedules, you can maintain being in-network, you know. So that kind of drives patients to the practice and then kind of just move it up that way. So PPO negotiations really is kind of that thing like do exactly what you're doing, the same volume you're doing. You don't even have to change anything else. Just going through and negotiating those, it brings you up significantly.

Yeah. So can you maybe like tell us, like with some of the clients you've worked with, what, what are kind of some of the common missteps? Or maybe we talk about like how many years, because one of the things I'll do is I'll have people raise their hand and say, you know, hey, have you negotiated fees in the last year? And I get a couple of hands. And then have you negotiated fees in the last 3 years? And maybe a couple more hands pop up. And it seems to me that like these, a lot of dental practice owners and office managers, like it's such a busy business to run with high patient volume. There's so many things that we're juggling that this is one of those things that can slip through the cracks for years, it seems like. So maybe that's the first question. What's a good, like how often should I be negotiating my fees? And then let's talk about like Well, how do we actually do that?

Yeah, so the insurance companies actually can renew your contracts every 2 years. So if you negotiate with an insurance company, you accept a new fee schedule, or even they automatically issue you an automatic fee increase, that kind of starts your 2-year mark. Some companies, a couple, do 3 years, but generally most carriers will do a fee review every 2. Okay, so for offices that have never ever negotiated, you're probably sitting on fee schedules that match up with the market fees of when you actually credentialed. So some people that we work with, all of a sudden they're like, oh, we've never negotiated, our office has been open 40 years and we've been on these plans for 30 years. And I'm like, that's crazy. Whatever they've gotten as far as improvements have been little by little, because it's not like the insurance companies are looking at the market and saying automatically, oh man, you know what would be fair is if we give Dr. So-and-so an increase 20% to put them in a fair spot. You know, the insurance companies are never going to work in that best interest of the practice. Um, so in a, in a roundabout way, that's kind of what you're looking at is negotiating every 2 to 3 years, always, if you're going to be a PPO-driven practice or even have PPO participation. That way you just know you're getting as much as you possibly can incrementally over the, over the lifespan of your practice.

Maybe another question. I'm just like being curious here. So listeners, you know this stuff, then sorry, but with these negotiations, so if I'm doing this every 2 to 3 years, or maybe if I haven't done it in a long time, can I like jump tiers when I negotiate? Or does the insurance companies, are they kind of hardcore? It's like, nah, like we'll just give you the next bump and then like you kind of have to negotiate every 2, 3 years to like get these bumps. Or can I make like a big jump in my first year of negotiation and then like grow from there? Does that make sense what I'm asking?

Like, amazing question. Okay, you don't necessarily have to tier your way up on their scale of fee schedules, which is great. But if you— that's where companies like us really excel at doing this, because typically if an office reaches out to get an increase to say their Aetna contract, yeah, Aetna is like, okay, sure, here's what we've got for you. And a lot of the time that increases a 2 to 5% improvement. Which isn't really that much. I mean, but the dentist sees it as like, oh look, they got us a new fee schedule, let's get that going. But if you are tedious in the way that you go through negotiations, you can really nickel and dime these companies to jump up to the market. So kind of in line with what you're asking is a lot of the time these insurance companies are looking at the market across the board. So what all the other carriers insurance carriers are charging for their fee schedules, right? And each of these insurance companies actually have partnerships with each other. So just as an example, and this is where it might get a little bit confusing, Aetna PPO, you can be in network with a direct contract and have a set fee schedule with them, or you can be in network with them piggybacking off your other contracts, if that makes sense. Hmm. Oh, these insurance companies have contracts where even if you don't contract with Aetna, they can put you in network through one of your other carriers, one of your other contracts, if they've got a leasing, uh, agreement there. So because of that, we go through and when we do negotiations, we reach out to every negotiable company and every contract that you have to try to get a fee increase. We're simultaneously looking at each fee schedule side by side. So if Aetna has 10 different options to be in network, we can go and say, okay, I see this option for Aetna, it's paying 30% higher than they are. That's when you take those comparisons back to NNSA. We know the game. We know we have options to be in network with your insurance through other carriers. This is what they're offering. And then that's when all of a sudden you're putting the insurance company in a position where they're like, they know what, they know what their options are. And so that's when you start getting these jumps in fees. Not 5%, more like 10, more like 20. Big improvements. But you really have to use the data for the market to try to drive your leverage. Otherwise, they're going to try to just say, No, no, no. If they don't think you know their game with the leasing.

Now tell me, you know, one of the questions I have is you were talking like, can I game the system at all? I don't know if it's even possible. Like, meaning let's say I know like I'm not gonna do crown and bridge in my practice. I'm not gonna do, you know, some of these codes, but I do wanna do this specific procedure. Maybe it's like, you know, I'm using crowns, but that's probably a bad example 'cause most general dentists do, or like, hey, I want to get more aggressive on my— I don't know, on some specific procedures. And like, I can kind of do the math and say, oh, if I can get these ones higher but these ones lower. Do they play that game, or is it not really that way with the insurance companies?

For the most part, anytime we negotiate, it's not a game of like recalibration a lot of the time. So more often pretty much with any carrier, when you ask for a fee increase, typically across the board they're increasing things. There are a couple of companies that kind of rebalance, and if maybe a code like the, the crown code, the D27-40, yeah, is changed for a company for their market, they might lower that. But that's where we're very, very combative with the insurance company. Go back. Yeah. So when we go through and negotiate, we keep very, very close track of the important codes for the practice. There are like 35 5 to 40 codes that each practice typically is billing out using for 95% of their revenue. So paying close attention to those and tracking them one by one to see where they jumped and continue negotiating on a code-by-code basis as well. So to answer your question before, you can't really go through and like selectively—

I mean, I kind of game it that way.

I guess you could. It would be very tedious because there are so many different carriers and they're all allowing different amount. So you kind of have to decide what you want to do. But the nice thing is, is when you go through negotiations, you can get each, each code that means something to you to go up. It's very seldomly that we see offices get decreases to codes. And if a company tries to pull something like that, that's where we pull out our strategies of maybe changing up the way that they're in network, like those leasing arrangements that I mentioned, kind of being like, maybe it makes sense to see these members through a different avenue. Network a different way and on an FD schedule that's gonna be better for the dentist.

And then, you know, even now that you're saying that out loud, I was thinking, yeah, you're actually right. Like, and even if we parse it down, there's probably only like a handful of codes that are like really, really high volume, at least in like a general practice. You know, it's like my exam codes, you know, both the periodic eval as well as like the limited. And then I've got my D1110 for the cleaning. And then I have my x-rays that I'm taking and imaging codes. And then, you know, my classic fillings that I'm doing and crowns. Like, you know, it's like a high, high volume. Even crowns is probably low, way low in comparison to those. So on those high volume ones, are the insurance companies more strict? Because they understand like, oh man, if we increase by, you know, a couple bucks there, then that changes the game. Or are they, it's, they just kind of get it and that they, they do the increase. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it depends on who is asking. I mean, I think that they try to do that when practices reach out to negotiate their fees. But with us, when we reach out, we also include all of those top procedures, like that top 35, top 40 that I mentioned, and tell them like, these are going to be the priority for the practice. Like, they need to see increases to these. We negotiate the full fee schedules But I mean, you know, there are thousands of codes and you use maybe 30.

Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, um, you definitely can target your negotiations to be more like that. And at this point, insurance companies expect that. They're not in a position where they're trying to kind of work around. They know what the office is looking for. They know what they want to increase. They might try to apply more to other codes across the fee schedule if you're not actively sending them the codes and data that you're trying to prioritize in the negotiation.

And then maybe tell me, like, I have a couple more questions on, on like kind of the same train of thought. So once I've gone through this whole process, how long does it take? And then I'm curious to hear, like, what, what kind of lifts do you see with practices? Like, how much more can I increase collections from doing, you know, this fee negotiation process?

Yeah, so typically going through the negotiation process, because we I mean, we usually take about 5 to 6 months to get through that.

I was gonna say, it sounds like it's like a kind of lengthy process.

Yeah, right, because first off, you reach out to about 20 companies. So even if you have— I mean, we are very thorough in trying to get data for what other carriers are offering too, so that it can be added to the leverage. And also because of those leasing arrangements I mentioned before, where an office can add something like Connection Dental or Denimax and be in network with 50 60 different contracts, 50 or 60 different carriers through that. Does that kind of make sense?

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. So it takes a long time because we're also going back and forth and negotiating 3, 4 proposals per company, putting that together and really, really working these. Anytime a company or even an office is kind of doing negotiations, it is tedious work. And a lot of the time after you get that first proposal and even maybe a second proposal and they're giving some resistance, they're like, you know what, this is as good as it's going to get. Yeah, but when we go through negotiations, like, if for like a direct contract, you can see increases anywhere between like, you know, on the lowest end like 5%, but on like a higher end for a direct contract, 15%, 20%, 25% sometimes. If you start messing with the structure, so those strategic leasing arrangements, we've moved a lot of offices around where we found their direct contract increase maybe 10%, but in comparison, we see an option for that carrier that pays 40% higher, and that's not even an outlandish number. Yeah, you go and re-navigate that participation to remain in network but be paid on that other contract they have for 40%, 50% higher. That's not even outlandish numbers when it comes to what's possible through like restructuring and taking advantage of these leasing arrangements.

Yeah, I'm just kind of doing some mental math right now, like I'm just doing hygiene. So like if you have a hygienist that's doing You know, maybe I'll even make it lower. Let's say they've got 1 cancellation a day. So it's like 7 visits a day. So D1110s times that by, I think that typical hygienist is somewhere between like 210 and 220 working days a year on like 4 days a week. So it's like 1,500 D1110s per hygienist per year. So like if we just are able to increase that fee by $5, then we're talking about $7,700. In collections that year, you know? So it's like, so sometimes those like, so you mentioned, I just did like, I don't know, 5% on $100. Like if that kind of small change, just so people, as you're listening, you're kind of like doing some of that mental math, like those high volume ones, like, like those make a big, big impact on, on collections where all of a sudden it's like, oh, okay. Like I can keep, I can keep paying my hygienist what I need to pay them to make that make sense when I get these little increases, you know?

No, exactly. And it, it lets some pressure off because I, I don't think that many offices— I know that they get frustrated with their PPO reimbursements and their allowables.

Yeah.

Any dentists I've worked with, when they actually go and take a look at a claim and say, I did that for that much, it's just kind of like a switch in there that's like, it's kind of a no-brainer. Yeah, you really do need to pay attention to what these insurance companies are basically like forcing you into. There's a lot of improvement that can be made, even just as, like you said, on a code that you do thousands of times by the end of the year, up at a few bucks, and you're taking a look at quite a lot more that you can work with. Um, the PPO participation is great because it does— a lot of patients are looking for dentists that are in-network. Yeah, of course that comes with a write-off, but that's where, um, PPO participation, if it's not profitable or if you're not paying attention to this, it's probably your biggest revenue leak. Yeah, I mean, most offices that start up with us that have never negotiated are writing off about 50 to 60% of their fee.

Yeah, it's so painful.

I know, that's just— I'm like, that's horrible. You, you billed out $2 million and got $750,000. And that, when you put it in perspective of the numbers, it's, it's a significant amount of money that's kind of draining through there.

Now I have, uh, I'm going to switch gears a little bit. You mentioned kind of the time it takes, so, you know, 5 or 6 months. Help me understand kind of the, you know, me, I'm an office, I want to go through this process. Talk me through what kind of expectations do I need to have from, you know, my team if I'm an owner and I'm having a team member help with this? Like, how much burden is going to be on me and the team to like help you guys in negotiations versus how much do you guys do? Because I'm assuming I'm going to have to help produce some reports. I think if I remember right, then like the dentist has to be the one that negotiates. Is that true? And then you guys kind of negotiate through the dentist? How does that all work?

No. So most carriers work with consultants on negotiations. There are like 2 carriers that even like they'll let us submit the request and they're aware that we're taking care of it, but they will send the proposal to the office, whoever the office contact is. So we have a couple of office managers that are like, hey, they sent us this. and then we script them something back. But that's like 2 out of 20 companies.

Cool.

Um, the others generally, they have it down. They know that consultants are reaching out to do this on behalf of the dentist and there's no problem. Okay. Sweet. Um, yeah.

So talk me through like workload, like how much in over those 5 or 6 months, like how much, how much time do I need to kind of allocate for this project to make sure it goes like smoothly and successfully? Working along.

There's very little time on the, on the practice side. So initially they get us agreement basically saying like, hey, these guys are— we're giving them permission to reach out to get our fee schedules and to negotiate on our behalf.

And that agreement goes to each of these, uh, insurances that they're contracted with.

Cool, right? And it's just for them to communicate with us. Like, any fee increases go to like, uh, that need to be accepted, it has to be signed by the dentist. Obviously nothing— no contract changes on our part. And then getting a couple of reports, just like UCR fees. For most of our practices, if they want it, we include a free UCR fee evaluation where we can actually take a look at their fee versus the market of UCR fees in the office and kind of show them, hey, you're on the lower end. It might be beneficial to up these before we move forward with negotiations. Cool. Not that it's going to dictate, but it does give more leverage being like, hey, our costs have gone up. Here are our new fees. We do need an increase.

Yep.

And then other than that, just a productivity report so we can identify what those main codes are for the practice. That way we can really, really strategically steer the negotiations. Um, most offices, before they even get started with us, like during their consultation phase, I do a free PPO, um, revenue analysis. So most practices will actually send me all of their numbers as far as the previous year, um, collections per insurance carrier. And then even before we sign— get them signed on or anything, I go through and tell them what their potential is. And that way, during the process, we can give them an estimated return on investment as we go, you know, because a 5% increase with a company like Guardian could mean huge, it could mean not so huge, depending on how much they do with that, that—

yeah.

So we are very, very transparent in trying to equate a percentage increase to potential revenue.

Now, I don't know if you're allowed to say this kind of stuff on a recording or not, but are there like insurance carriers, because people are contracted with all sorts of ones. You know, there's obviously the big ones like Delta, Blue Cross— Blue Cross, tongue-tied— Blue Shield, Aetna, Cigna, you know, you name it. Are there some that are like way hard to negotiate with and some that are easier so that listeners are like, oh man, if I'm contracted with this one, then I need to like get on it?

There are a couple that don't negotiate. The rest can be flexible and can be worked with. And I can say who it is because everybody already knows Delta Dental is not going to negotiate.

So they won't. And there's not even like a request where I can say like, hey, bump it up. Like there's just nothing.

I've tried for huge deals. I've tried for— they're not going to do it.

Okay.

If they're going to improve any fees, they try to keep all fee schedules for providers uniform for the region. So if they're going to do an increase, which in some areas this year they actually did issue an increase of about, I think, 3%, something like that. Which is better than nothing.

Yes.

Then that's as good as you're going to get with Blue Cross Blue Shield. They have so many different plans in so many areas that some are flexible depending on their leasing arrangements, but they don't really negotiate custom fee schedules either. But everything else, yes. But that's why I do the free PPO, uh, revenue analysis. Yeah, because I can show them— because most offices are always going to say Delta's our number one. It's like, yes, I know everyone's So we can take a look at all the other carriers. I can look at how much negotiable revenue is in the practice. If there's more than like $100,000, there's definitely something that can be done to up, because even if you get a 10% increase on that, you know what I mean, you can really, really work with what you've got. And so you may as well start negotiating where you can. And then it's nice because some practices that we optimize for, sometimes that we reconstruct the way they're in network, and all of a sudden for most carriers are getting 40% higher than what they were, it takes less pressure on accepting some of these lower paying plans.

Yeah.

You know, that practices feel obligated to take because they're, they're just trying to get as many patients in the door and it just lets off some pressure when you start optimizing where you can and then see where everything falls.

Yeah. Interesting. So then, so then that does, that doesn't surprise me that, that Blue Cross Blue Shield and especially Delta remain the big, the big bad behemoth. On the, on the top.

So I can tell you why too, is it's because they don't have these leasing arrangements. Okay, so all these other carriers, the reason that they're able to negotiate is you can be in network with their same members through other carriers. They've done this fee schedule sharing program. Yeah, basically to get more in-network doctors, and then it gives them the flexibility to say, oh cool, we have 5 different fee schedule options to process this claim, which one are we going to use? Obviously the lowest one. So when there's leasing arrangements, these insurance companies know they need to compete to keep on providers. Delta, some like Delta, they lease to anyone. If you're going to be in network, you have to contract with them. And that's why there's— they've pretty much figured out how to just lock it in.

Yeah, those suckers. But it's helpful to know, like, for anyone listening, it like sets the right expectation for like, okay, like, how do I think about this project? Where am I going to get wins? Where might I not get wins? Like, so that's really, really helpful. And then talk me through like, maybe, you know, at the end here I've got maybe 2 last questions. The first one, like, how does someone start the process of working with a consultant like you? Because I think for a lot of folks they just don't even know where to start. It sounds like you've got, I mean, I'm assuming you can probably go to Beacon PPO, is it beaconppo.com? And then—

beaconpposolutions.com.

Solutions.com, and I'll throw that in the show notes. And then, you know, what's the first— what's the first kind of step is to do a fee analysis? Talk me through that. Like, how do you get started with the project?

Yeah, so for the first— for the first thing we do, um, when you go to our website, there's a button to book a consultation with me. It's a free consultation. We can take as much time as you want, um, to kind of go through things. We can take a look at what participation you have, what your practice goals are, and then also I can kind of work with what you have and let you know what we do and what the expectation is.

Cool.

Um, also just giving us a quick call. Whoever answers can usually either get you on my calendar or see if I'm available.

Sweet.

Um, so that's number one. What after that, once we do a consultation call and I kind of have a good idea, I send out a proposal, but I also request that you send me data just for your revenue per carrier from your practice management system, usually for the full last, like, full previous year to start off with, so we can kind of take a look. Um, and then from there I can kind of break it down and say, hey, even though Delta Dental is like 40%, you know, 50% of what you do, with all your negotiable companies that you have flexibility with, this is how much revenue you have. Even on the very lowest end, this is what a return on investment could mean. So we're very, very good at um, showing that very, very base expectation, and from there it goes up significantly. So we have— even though I'm like, if you get a set 5% across the board, this is what you're looking at— but most practices see anywhere between like 15, 20, up to 50% increases with some carriers.

Yeah, it's so sweet. Okay, that's super helpful. This has been, you know, Kelsey, time has flown. I, I love conversations like this. Has been Really insightful for me, I'm sure super insightful for the listeners. Now to finish up, I asked the same question to every guest on the podcast. And the question is, what does growth in dentistry mean to you? So I want you just to think about like the— you've been in dentistry for a long time. Obviously, your angle on dentistry is heavily involved in working with insurance companies, PPOs, and negotiating there. So I would love to hear from your perspective. What does growth in dentistry mean to you?

For me, because I like the, the, my specific little niche, you know, I think the best thing that I can offer with that is, you know, you can continue to see patients in your office, you can continue to get an influx of patients in your office with the, that when you're in-network with the carriers that they are insured with. The best thing to do is to try to get anything you can for the work you're already doing. So growth in dentistry for me is go through, increase your PPOs as much as you possibly can, get every nickel and dime you can from the insurance companies before you write off removing participation. Because the goal there is to take your bottom line and put it up through something like PPO negotiations. Then it puts you in a whole different situation where maybe you can be like Okay, we have tons of patients coming to the office, we are getting paid well on, on those patients, we can go ahead and maybe add an associate and they can start taking on that. Sometimes that means that the main dentist can decide, you know what, I'm not going to take this low-paying plan, I can move off of that, and then kind of work in a way that they're getting more even fee-for-service, um, but it doesn't lose volume for the practice, if that makes So the nice thing is, is PPO negotiations— I see a lot of our practices just bring up their bottom line just by doing this. It takes about 6 months to go through and do it. All of a sudden you're getting paid more on a claim-to-claim basis, and it gives you the flexibility of being like, hey, now that we have more money coming in, what does that mean for our practice? Do we want to hire more? Do we want to get more hygienists in another chair? Do we want to hire an associate to take on some of that workload so that the main doctor can back off? That's kind of what The vision of growth in dentistry.

Yeah, I love that. Unlocking increased revenue without changing a dang thing in the practice. Exactly. That's like, that's a pretty sweet way to grow. So, well, Kelsey, thank you for joining today. Like I said, been a lot of fun. And folks, I hope you check out Beacon PPO Solutions. Like I said, I'll put that website in the show notes. So beaconpposolutions.com with an S, right? Solutions.com. Yes. So I'll throw it in the show notes. Feel free to reach out to Kelsey and team. They're awesome.

Yep.

And, uh, yeah, thank you everyone for joining again. This has been another episode of the Growth in Dentistry podcast. Uh, keep growing and we'll talk soon. See you guys.