How Trauma Affects Young Athletes And What Coaches & Parents Must Know w/ Cathy Helin

Holding onto that trauma limits you in so many ways that you have no idea. If you are willing to tackle it or acknowledge it and go through the process to work through your trauma, you'd be so unbelievably surprised on what that can unlock. And it's not just sports. It's just overall, in your whole life, the confidence that it brings in just life in general, it becomes more and more evident, you know, that trauma held in our bodies is limiting us from so much that we're able to conquer in our lives. Lights.

Welcome to another episode of youf Must Be out of youf Mind. And as you know, I always bring on amazing guests who relate to so much to what we do. And today I've got that again. So I got Kathy Helen from Bearcat coaching, and Kathy came in to see me a few weeks ago, and we'll talk a little bit about that and what she sort of experienced. But I also want you to learn a lot about what she does, because it's amazing on the things that she's doing in her coaching program. So welcome to you Must Be out of youf Mind, Kathy.

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Wood. I'm really excited to be here. Yeah. I'm Kathy Helene. I am with bearcat coaching. I work with teens and student athletes on their mindset. And I did see Dr. Wood a few weeks ago down in Florida, and my whole purpose of going down there was to bring another level. I'm an athlete. He's an athlete. We had a lot of great conversations, and, you know, just to be able to step up your game, whether it's your physical game or your mental game, is such an important tool to have. Knew seeing him would help me get beyond that so I can serve people at a higher level as well.

Awesome. We. We had so much fun when you came down because, I mean, I. I geek out on athletes, and I think you do, too. So we had a lot of fun. We could have spent another probably four hours just talking about sports.

Yeah. In fact, I was watching the Masters last Sunday, and I'm like, I wish Dr. Wood was sitting right next to me so we could analyze this whole thing. It was. It was so good.

That's so cool. So tell me a little bit about what you experienced, what you took. Took home from after sitting with us for the. That period of time.

Yeah. So I think, you know, like everybody, we have certain things that have happened in our past that maybe put limits on what we do, and I knew some things were holding me back. I've put a lot of work into myself the past, I would say six, eight years and what has led to Bearcat coaching. But I know as an athlete that there's always another level of um. And I think the biggest takeaway that I had after meeting with you is so much more clarity. Somebody mentioned it to me, who's very close to me the other day. They're like, you just seem like nothing, nothing phasing you, like, it's all, it's all clear. You know exactly what your mission is and what you're doing. And I think know that that is what's going on now is that I'm able to eliminate the distractions, stay super clear on my mission. And when I go speak to, you know, groups and things like that, like, it's just so apparent of what my mission is for Bearcat coaching and why I'm speaking to student athletes and how I'm helping them. But another bonus is like, I'm a parent too. I have four kids and just being super present with them. And I've noticed my conversations are a lot more in depth and purposeful and not that they weren't before, but I just, I'm like so dialed in on, on what they're going through as well.

That's such a big part. Right? Because obviously you're a high performer, you know what high performance is all about. But we all, like when we talked about, we all have another gear and that's sort of the idea is to get to that next gear. And that's what separates the best from the good. So tell us about your experiences in college.

Yeah, so I played Division 2 college basketball. I took a four year scholarship at the University of Minnesota, Crookston. And originally when I was being recruited, you know, people told me you'd probably be best suited at Division 3, maybe JUCO. And in my mind I wanted a higher level. And so I ended up playing at Division 2 and I had only played center when I was in high school. I'm 5 11, so if you know anything about basketball, that's small for a center. So I got to college and I had to adjust and make a major transition. So I had to develop my outside game and do things that were out of my comfort zone. And during my college experience I progressed and had a lot of success, but I also experienced a lot of, you know, personal things that I was going through as a lot of athletes in college do, mentally, and it was affecting my game as well. So I had to work through those different things with the help of other people. And in the end, I had an amazing four years. I ended up being inducted into the hall of fame at UMC in 2016. Broke some records, which now have been broken. I wish I could have kept playing. You know, I had the option to try out for teams overseas, and I just wanted to continue my schooling. So I went to get my master's at the University of Minnesota and work with the Gophers and, and their athletic department. And it's just kind of one thing led to another and. And here I am.

Yeah, it's amazing, like, when you're talking about, you know, you went to Division 2 and then you're saying, okay, I'm not going to be big enough, right? How many ATH athletes do you hear are told they can't do it? Right? And you hear it all the time. And so those are the kinds of limitations that can create what I call emotional concussions. You know, no one's deliberately trying to hurt you, but they're just telling you their opinion. And. But the problem is when you're a young athlete, that hurts when you hear that I was told you're not big enough. You're not going to be able to play professional hockey, you know. And then afterwards, I mean, Gretzky broke the mold. Gretzky came along four years after me. Had he come along before me, he probably would have helped me break that mold. But what was amazing is after all of that, and you saw Gretzky, what he did then the Russians actually came up with the prototype hockey player. But at the time when I was coming up is they were looking at it as well. You got to be six, two, you know, you got to weigh 200 pounds. That really isn't true. Now you look at the NHL, they're all like that. But at that time, those guys weren't. Weren't fast. Now they're fast. It's crazy what they do now.

It is insane. Amazing how sports have progressed. We Talked about the 4 minute mile when we were together, and you look at that example, but then you look at, like sports today and Caitlin Clark, what she's done for women's basketball and changed a whole trajectory of what, what women are capable of and the sport is capable of. I just saw AD for European soccer and they used AI to turn all the athletes to look like males. And they did this whole highlight reel of how amazing the sport is. And then they reversed it and showed how they made it made them look like males, but actually they're females doing these moves, and it just Shows you what the talent level is all around. And it's not just female sports. Male sports have, like, progressed ultimately, too. It's just. It's fun to see, like you said, Caitlin Clark.

I mean, all of a sudden, that just put women's basketball in the spotlight, and there was all kinds of great players. But what she did was almost sort of like a Steph Curry is. Made it exciting that she was shooting from outside. She's not the typical. What you would think was going to be the big, you know, power. Right. She just came in and just shot lights out. And that's exciting.

It's so exciting. And I think the cool thing is she had a coach that embraced that, because a lot of times people are afraid of what others will think about that. So coaches will be like, no, no, no, you can't. You can't shoot outside. Like, that's not the way the game is played. And instead, Lisa Bluder, like, totally embraced it. And look what it did for the game. And now we've got girls all over and women all over that are taking those shots, and it's like, yeah, take those shots.

That's what I love. And somebody has to come along and break the mold. And it was like I said when I was coming up and playing hockey, they were just like, well, no, you. You gotta be big in order to play. But they didn't recognize, you know, the skill level. The Europeans were actually ahead of the Canadians in that. They still weren't as good as the Canadians, but overall, they were showing that there's a new way to play. And that really came about because the rinks were bigger, they were wider, and they were a little longer, so there was more room to move. The Canadian rink was smaller, so that's why they wanted bigger. You give those few extra feet on an arena, you think, could it make that much difference? It does.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Doesn't matter if it's a rink or a basketball court, it makes a huge difference.

Yeah. That's what I love about the Hoosiers movie. Remember when was it? Gene Hackman, he came out and he measured the court.

Yes.

It felt bigger. It felt like it was a bigger place because of where they were playing. But I thought it was a great way to sort of explain. No, this is the same thing. You're here and you're going to play at this level.

Yep. Yeah. It's just your mind.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's what I love about what you're doing, is kind of breaking the mold of what we have thought about of illness or things that are going on in our body and you're breaking the mold and saying it's just a glitch in your mind and we can fix that. And that's what I love about what you're doing. And you literally just tell people that there's nothing wrong with their mind and you can see their shoulders relax, you can see the whole different energy about them. And so kudos to you on, on what you're doing and, and the mold you're breaking.

Oh, thank you. And, and again, to me, it was just looking at the science of it. I mean, if you look at sports as science as well, if you look at it and break it down, it's pretty simple to understand. And, and that's what I did when I started looking at things like addiction. We just had a person come in who had been in addiction for years, went into rehab, spent $100,000 in rehab and she couldn't get out of it. And her parents said, like, can you help? And within two weeks she left, coming down and spending time with us and looks incredible. And what she said was just like you had mentioned, nobody had talked to me that way. Nobody had said that to me that I'm not broken, I'm not defeated. That's what she kept hearing, is there something wrong with you? And for the rest of your life you're going to have to white knuckle this. And that's pretty discouraging if you think like, it's almost like, oh, you know, I drank something and now for the rest of my life I'm going to be ill. No, your system's designed to heal, right? The body's designed to heal, the mind's designed to heal. But if you get those emotional concussions or traumas in your life, the mind is going to use that as a reference to protect you. And if you remember what we talked about, I said it's impossible to sabotage yourself. The brain can't sabotage you. It's survival based. It's going to protect you. So what I love what you're doing with these young athletes is letting them realize that those bumps that they get along the way, the losses, the coaches that tell them they're not good enough, they're not going to make it. Those are just things that they can absolutely overcome. So tell me a little bit about what you're doing. I know a little bit about what you're doing, but tell our audience what you're doing with the coaching with these young people.

Yeah, absolutely. So I Work one on one with student athletes. I also work with their parents, so we meet once a week over zoom. I have kids all over the United States. If I'm able to, I meet with them in person. But I also do teamwork. So I'll work with a specific team, whether it's high school, college, whatever their needs are. And I work with the coach on what their needs are and culture and stuff like that. And I'll come in and do a session with them and then we do follow ups from there. I've also done small group training with a small group of athletes or a program and either they come to me or I'll go to them. I just had one on Sunday with a volleyball club. I had 50 athletes in there and we spent hour and a half together. Completely life changing, right? Like this is information that, that they aren't getting from anywhere else. And so if I could just share those nuggets that could potentially change the rest of their life. And they may hear something from me that day that doesn't resonate until like a year, maybe five years down the road. Or they hear it from somebody else and they're like, ah, I've probably heard that before, but now they're ready to hear it. Kind of like when our kids hear something from us as parents and then they hear it from somebody else, that's typically what happens. But yeah, I love my one on ones and I love the team, the team sessions because there's so much magic that happens when you're working behind the scenes to resolve trauma and things that happen in their life. And ultimately it brings them closer together and allows them to perform at a higher level. So it's, it's really, really cool.

It's amazing working with teams because you can build a culture in a team, right, Very quickly if you understand what they're dealing with. We really didn't have that at two types of coaches. You had the coaches screamed and yelled and the coach that was sort of like easygoing. And I could work with either one. It didn't seem to really bother me, but I saw some of the players that would just wilt under that pressure and it was awful to see. What I didn't even understand at that time is it wasn't just the coach, it was probably what they were dealing with at home. Right. And maybe in their personal life. And then they get a coach that just pounds on them, which is just, you know, exasperating what they're, they're dealing with in their personal life. So with all These young athletes that you're working with, what are you seeing as the common things that you need to help them with? Like what, what's the, the most prevalent.

Things that you're seeing most common is their ability to move past mistakes. So many get stuck on. It has to look perfect, it has to look a certain way. I can't mess up, I can't let anybody down. That is probably the most common one that I see.

Yep. And I shared with you when I was playing tennis, the best advice from my tennis coach was when he said to me, he says, you want to be a great tennis player. Right. I'm 13. Right. And I said, yeah. And he goes, well, lose a lot.

Yeah.

Which didn't make any sense. I said, why would I want to lose a lot? I mean, as a 13 year old, that's sort of counterintuitive. Until he explained what he meant is he said, don't be afraid to lose, go play against better players. And he says, play in the older divisions. And so, you know, I'd go play in 15, 16 year old tournaments, 17, even adult tournaments, and I'd just get a blown out. Right. But at the same time, what he taught me was that's how you learn. So I expected that I'm going to make some mistakes, I expected that I was going to lose. But what he was sort of teaching me is how many games can you win in a set? Right. So if I came back losing one and one, it sounds sort of silly, but I'm like, I took two games, I took two games off that 18 year old.

Right.

Which made me feel pretty good. I was chomping up and chunking out my success.

Yeah.

And amazing, like life experience. And if I had not done that, I don't think I would have excelled as fast as I did. So tell me what you're seeing too, like with kids, when you're saying about where's that coming from? Where are they learning that they can't make mistakes?

You know, I think it's just, it's the lack of confidence and we talked about confidence and how you have skill and then that's a result of confidence. So there's, there's other things in their life that they're trying to tackle where they're not having confidence. It doesn't necessarily all boil down to I screwed up. In sports, like you got to dig deeper and peel back the layers of that. You know, where have they heard that they messed up? That it's not okay to make mistakes. It's ultimately peeling Back the onion and looking at the situation from a 10,000 foot view and getting them to actually like think about it and rewiring that and reprogramming that to think, have a different thought about it. So there's a lot of different ways that we can approach it. And you know, as we get to know each other, we uncover all these different things. And it's pretty cool how young people, their minds are so easily molded and remolded. I feel like it's easier to look at a young or work with a young athlete. And maybe this is a limited belief of my own, but young athletes, I feel like you can reframe their minds like this versus an adult who has lived with a trauma or something like that for a long period of time. It takes a little bit more effort and a little bit longer. Is that what you find as well?

100%. You're absolutely right. So if I have somebody who comes in, say not even on sports, but just coming in with trauma, if they're younger, my sessions are quicker. They don't have as much, you know, scar tissue from that over that period of time. And they're much more resilient. And that's the key if we can teach them resiliency. That's why, again, the whole point of learning how to lose and not get mad at yourself and come back and say, what did I learn? What was the result? And I look at sports as probably being my best teacher because what I learned was sometimes I played really well and lost. And it wasn't that I played bad. The other person just beat me that day. They were at the top of their game. So I come in And I play 90% and that person played 96%. They beat me. Right. That's okay because there's those, those games where I play at 96%. Right. And I beat the guy at 90. Right. It's just the way, you know, sports work. But if you can accept that and understand that. And then there were times that if I didn't play my best, I knew it. And I had to learn to sort of accept that. Yeah, I didn't put in my best effort or I wasn't, you know, right on my game, why, that could have been just something at school that day or, you know, a teacher, a coach or somebody had said something and put me off. But I just had to learn that that's the sport. That's what sports teach you.

Yeah, that's another reason why I love sports. And one thing I work with kids is that your Sport doesn't define who you are. Ultimately. Wins and losses don't define who you are. Was basketball everything to me when I played it? Absolutely. But it didn't define me as a person. And it took me a while to figure that out as I worked on myself and I gained that. And that's what I work with my student athletes about. And I think when they're able to be resilient like that and overcome these different loss or lessons, and they're able to look at it like you just said, as curiosity, like, what didn't I do beforehand? How did I not prepare? Is there something different that I could do rather than I messed up and keep hammering on that message that gets lost in what sports is all about. And sports is just all about that lesson and how we can grow and be resilient and get better and develop these relationships and the connections and as long as our athletes don't get lost in their wins and losses, define me. That's not what it's about. It's about who is it making you? How are you building? How are you growing?

I absolutely agree. Hockey, I guess it was my number one sport. My parents didn't really know anything about hockey. My dad was not a hockey player. They were phenomenal in terms of support and getting me there and taking care of everything. They always wanted to reward success and not in a negative way. They were doing it, I think, trying to do it in a positive way. But what I didn't like is we'd come back from a hockey game and they would say, oh, my gosh, Corey was the best player out there tonight, Wasn't he? Phenomenal? Right? If Corey wasn't there, we wouldn't have won. And I'm like, but I played well, right? I may not have scored that game. And I kept thinking, they don't understand that. I made three checks. I got back and picked up my check and stopped a goal. Right? But they didn't sort of see that. And that's what I think is important for parents to understand, is don't always just think about the successes, like the goals. Because that was the obvious thing. It's easy to see goals and reward it. I wish my parents had said this, what do you think? You did really well tonight? And then I could have said, did you see, like, how twice I got caught up ice? But I skated really hard and I. I caught my guy and I caught him from behind when he would have had a breakaway. Like, those are the things I was seeing as a kid. But they Weren't seen. But I think if we can get, you know, kids and parents to understand that, look at the whole game, you know, I mean, how many games did you play in where you made maybe didn't score a lot of points, but you contributed on the defense?

For sure. Yeah, it happens all the time. Happens all the time. And I actually just had one of my hockey players, I said, how'd your games go last week? Not so well. I didn't score any goals and didn't have any assists. And I said, okay, so the games didn't go well. And he's like, no. And I said, well, what else did you do well? Well, I won all my face offs. Okay, that's huge. Yeah, exactly. So it's challenging them. Parents need to challenge their kids, too. On looking at all the other things, how did you respond to the turnover? Did you get back on defense? You know, those type of things are so important rather than just focusing on. On all the statistics. We get so hung up on. On leading scores or leading assists and things like that, rather than what they're gaining in the. In the things that they don't show on the stat sheet.

One of the things I look back, when I look back on, you know, when I played, whenever we had a big blowout game, we won like, you know, nine to one. I still had my consistent couple goals a game. I was consistent in that. Every once in a while I'd have a blowout game. But I remember taking pride in the fact that when he looked at it, there were very little games did I not contribute an assist or a goal. But that, to me is the key. I love the plus minus things that they do now. I wish they had have done that when I was playing because there's a lot of times I was in the ice even though I didn't get an assist. I was on the ice for the goal, but I was not on the ice when they scored against us. Yeah, I love that stat. To me, that is probably the most valuable stat you have because how are you contributing to your team?

Yeah, exactly. It's just like football, you know, you look at your linemen and they don't really get as much credit as they should for protecting a quarterback. But we have to recognize, like, every piece of the puzzle on that team makes a difference. And looking at the whole picture, not just who's putting up the points.

When we were big, we were big Blue Jays fans. When we lived up in Canada, we used to watch the blue jig games all the time. There was A player as a left fielder, George Bell, he'd hit his, you know, 30 home runs a year. So many RBIs. When I sat with my son Brandon, I would say, that's not a great player. And he'd go, why? I say, because he doesn't hustle when the ball's hit into the corner, he jogs over and lobs it back in. I said, the fact that he gives him an extra base when he could have cut off that extra base, I think that takes away from his RBIs and takes away from his home runs. So I was always, you know, showing them to focus on the effort, because if we keep rewarding success, then our. Our children are basically thinking their value comes from success as opposed to effort. And as we know as athletes, if you put in the effort, the success will come. But if you just focus on the success and don't put in the effort, which is what I said George Bell was. Robbie Alomar was my favorite baseball player of all time. And I said, if you walked into a baseball stadium and you sat down and you didn't look at the scoreboard, you could not tell what the score of the game is based on the way Robbie played. He dove for everything. He ran, he hustled. He'd hit a ground ball to the second baseman and ran to first as if it was the bottom of the ninth of the World Series. He played the same way every time. And that's how I played. That's how I taught my sons to play. Go with effort. The results will show up.

I love that. We just had an 8th grader that plays varsity softball, and I think we were up 14 1, and she made a diving catch from shortstop right behind third base. And there's no reason why she had to go for that. And it was just such a. Like a cool moment. You can't take that out of an athlete that is truly that competitive and wants it that bad for their team. And I think that is such a cool thing to experience and watch, because not everybody has that.

No, but you can train it. That's what I said. I trained it in my kids on the way they play. I don't care what the score is. I want to see 100% effort. I'll be happy at the end of the day. Right. If I see that every single time you went out there, you gave your best effort. Because that's how I was raised. That's how I played it. I remember playing in a game, we were losing 11 nothing. It was a pretty. Not a Good game. And then the third period, the puck went back to the defenseman, and as he was winding up, I went out and I slid to block the shot and I got it right in the stomach, right? And there was like no padding there. And so I'm over on the bench gasping for air, and my teammate says, It's 11 nothing. What are you blocking shots for? And my response was, because I don't want it to be 12 nothing. I love that because that's how I was going to play. That's how my parents raised me. That's how I always did things. And I did the same thing. If you get that mentality in sports, success will show up, right? If you take that effort, same thing in practice. I go to practice and I practice as hard as I. And I always encouraged, you know, don't. Don't just go there and just go through the motions. One of the things that was interesting too, Kathy, is I remember I told you I was offered a contract to play in Sweden. And when they came over to sign me, one of the things that was interesting is they came to one of our practices to watch me practice. And we had a two hour practice that day. And the first hour was just literally calisthenics. I mean, we were lying on our backs, holding your feet up as long as you could, doing all these different, different drills. And so I thought they were going to be super impressed, like how tough our practices were. And I remember when I sat down with it after, I was thinking, they're going to go, wow. We were like, amazed. I said, what do you think of our practice? And the guy says to me, I don't get it. I said, you don't get what? He goes, why are you doing wind sprints and calisthenics on ice? He says, go out into the field and do that. We just run drills, right? We're practicing plays and practicing drills. Either you guys are so rich that you have so much money you can buy ice time, right? But we do not have that luxury. You know what? That made me see things completely different. I went, you're absolutely right. We were wasting a lot of time. That's not stuff that we needed to do on the ice.

Yeah, well. And I think a lot of our athletes, you know, they think just because they're spending time in the gym or they're doing these things that they're putting in the work and putting in the practice, but how efficient are you with the work that you're putting in? You know, you talk about conditioning and stuff. Like that or the certain drills, like you could do drills till you're blue you in the face. But if you aren't pushing yourself to the max and, and utilizing those drills the way they're supposed to be, it's. It's kind of pointless effort. You need to push yourself out of that comfort zone and, and really get used to the uncomfortable. So when game time comes, you don't even have to think you're in that flow state like we talked about.

Yeah. It's automatic. Right. So that like how you practice is how you play. So if you go and you give 100% in practice, it's not something you turn on and turn off. You just do it it in a game as well. So how many different types of sports are you working with in terms of the athletes you're working with?

All kinds of sports. I, I have hockey, basketball, volleyball, baseball, softball, golf, kind of all over the board. And I think that's the beauty of it. Sports are all related. I think with my unique background on business, my husband and I have grown a service business for the last 15 years. And I was in sports before that and now came back to sports. It has given me a. A wide range of experiences and it's so relatable of what we're experiencing within our business and bringing that back to sports and vice versa. Like, there's so many relations when it comes to, you know, leadership, effort, efficiency, making sure that, you know, the team is all on the same page and building that culture. So there's so many things that it just kind of all melded together. All the pieces of the puzzle come together and your story is no different. And I think if people just the time to look back and see what's actually taking place in their life and what it's leading up to and the potential, they'd be pretty dang surprised about what's going on.

What I talk about when you're playing on a team, I played on this one team, I got recruited to it, and it was probably the five best players in the league on the same team. Right. And so overall, no question on paper, this was like the best team. We didn't win. It was the best team on paper. But boy, I had one guy. I mean, he literally wouldn't pass the puck. He'd get the puck and he hold on it, hold onto it, looking for his opening. And it was just like, this is crazy. He was an individual. So you take the five best individuals, put them on the same team, they may not make a good team.

Yeah. Understanding your role is so important. I have to share a story with you. I worked with a junior college down in Worthington's Minnesota West. My assistant coach from college is their head coach. And so when I started Bearcat two years ago, I told her what I was doing, and she. She said, would you like to come down and work with my team? I was like, absolutely. So I had the whole plan set in place, and she called me three days before I was going down there, and she goes, you'll never believe what we have going on. They had so many traumatic things going on with individual players. Parents was. A parent passed away. A friend committed suicide. A house burned down. Mom was in the hospital. I mean, she counted. She just did a speech at her church about it. 17 different events that this team experienced. And like, you would never imagine anything like that. So I went down and I completely had a different plan. And it was all about, you know, trauma and processing that and how we can reframe that. And this team, they had a rough start, but as they started implementing and going through the process and they shared with each other what they were experiencing, and they were able to build that bond. They ended up winning a national championship that year.

I love it.

It's unbelievable. Yeah, they bonded. They bonded, and they even all went and got tattoos together. Now, not saying everybody go get tattoos together, but they all went got tattoos together after the season. And that was that bond that was created because they experienced and they process that together. Something that they'll never forget for the rest of their lives. Really.

I love that. That's a great story. And it's so true, because they had something in common and they were able to bond over that for sure.

Yeah.

Tell me about a team that you felt like that you had that.

I would say my AU team, we just. We came from all different backgrounds. I've been on a couple different. My college junior year, too, we were really, really close and shared a lot of things. But my AAU team, just to have had. Just had that bond together. And it was cool because the parents were all the same. Like, they. They bonded together, too. So they had that tight relationship. So it was kind of everybody gearing for everybody. We were kind of all going to different places to play college ball afterwards, and we had those years together. It was. It was a really fun, fun experience.

Beautiful. What's the best lesson you've learned from a coach?

Best lesson I've learned from a coach.

Of course. That's a. I'm sure you got a lot of. Of Them.

Yeah, that's a great question. I've learned lessons on like my assistant coach in college, how to, how to care for people. Like she was, she was a big woman of faith and, or she still is. And I always felt like she cared about me, not just on the basketball court, but she held me accountable. I remember her looking at me one time in college, we were doing individual workouts and something had happened. I was not in a good place. And she looked at me and she goes, I think you need to leave the gym now. And for someone to tell me to leave the gym was like what? That was my sacred place. Right. It's the only place that I really felt confident at the time. And it was a big wake up call for me. So I needed her to call me out on that stuff. So just how to care for people. I mean, I've coached basketball for 25 plus years and I don't know if I'll ever stop coaching, but that's something I believe I do really well, is I love my players and I want to see them succeed not only on the court, but outside of that. Just believing in your players, that there's, there's more. I think sometimes we're so quick to judge. Just a quick snapshot of an athlete, yeah, they're going to be something or no, they don't have what it takes. And actually believing in them that they have the potential if they want it and making sure that they know that as well. And we're doing it at such a young age too limiting these kids to say, nah, they don't have what it takes. You don't know what that kid will develop and be a potential or how they're going to grow or what they're going to mature into. It's okay to peak later. Is my whole thing is when these kids don't peak right away and they peak later. I was one of those kids. That's why I love saying that. But it's okay to peak later in life and not be on these all Stars at such a young age and make your way up and find your own.

Yeah. Kathy, I can tell you this. When I met you, I'm not surprised. You're an outstanding coach. When you just said that you care about people, I can see that. I can see why your students and your athletes would love you because you've just got that kind of caring that is obvious. Right. And that, that's come, that's come probably from your faith and from, you know, a lot of different areas. But it's such a difference, because coaches sometimes, if they don't care about their kids, kids feel it because they may not be getting that at home. You don't know what you're delivering to them. And they may not talk about it. You may not see it. You may not even know it. I've had coaches or kids that I coach that told me what a difference I made in their lives. Right. And it's just, like, it's really cool to hear as they grow up and they become parents themselves.

Absolutely. Weddings, babies. I mean, we see it all. My husband and I both coach, and there were times, you know, in years when our babies were little, because I have four children of my own, and I was coaching and starting to learn more. They'd open up to you, and I'd look at my husband and be like, can we just take them in? Can they just come stay with us? Because you knew what they were experiencing at home, and you just wanted to give them a safe environment to come back to. Like, you. And I talked about the most important thing that these kids need is to know that they're safe and they're loved.

Yeah. We had one young guy on our baseball team. I coached them for five years, since they were, like, nine. And he came to our team a little later. He got recruited from another team, and I didn't know the dynamics until I got him on. His father was so brutal on him in terms of pressure, and the poor kid would cry when he struck out. And the whole team was pretty good, though, because they tried to pick him up, and they tried, you know, don't worry about it. You know, they'd say, you know, they would try to help him, even though he was so hard on himself. And when he would, like, he would strike out. He'd look straight up into the crowd where his dad was, and his dad would be, like, mad at him. We tried everything to really help him, and I think we did sort of help him. But then when the next year came along and we were putting a team together, I cut him. And I remember his father came up to me. He says, I can't believe you'd cut my son. He's one of your best players. And I said, I didn't cut him. I cut you. And I said, because you're disrupting the whole culture. Even with the parents constantly complaining about who I was putting in the lineup, and it was affecting all the kids. That, unfortunately, was not his son's fault. Have you had those kinds of decisions where you have to make tough decisions any Experience like that.

I've seen a lot of stuff. I've seen a parent come up to our head coach after a game, after we shook hands onto the court and get in his face and do this kind of thing. And I've seen a lot. And, you know, you think about not only the mind space that it takes from the kid that this parent is doing that, but the rest of the team and how they're affected on witnessing that. And now everybody's walking on pins and needles or concerned. You know, you've got those people that are big empaths, and they soak in every emotion and they're worried about how Susie is gonna be treated after her performance, and then they're not able to perform their best. So it just takes up a lot of space. And if parents would realize, like, just encouragement and how much that does you. Yelling from the stands of get your hands up when they're. When they're ready to bat or, you know, swing level, like, is that really doing any good for your kid if you're giving them instructions from the bleachers? Just the encouragement is all they need. Leave it up to the coach to make those adjustments and those tweaks. And it's hard as a parent that is coach and watching my kids in sports, it's hard not to be like, but you got. Do you know, because I played softball, I'm not coaching her in softball, and I know some of the things that she should be correcting, but is it going to do me any good when she's standing up there and yell at her? Now, I could do that when I'm coaching in basketball. I can help her with those things, but that's not my role. And understanding your role as a parent is to support your child and encourage them and hold them accountable. And I think another important thing to remember is just be curious. We have kids a lot of times that will come home and complain about so and so on their team or something that their coach said or their team teacher and just remaining curious on, like, oh, okay, so how did you handle that? Or was that really the situation while still believing them, but you can still question it and help them analyze it without, like, flying off the handle of going in protective mode. Because it's easy to do as a parent. Right. And just continuing to ask questions and help them, you know, analyze a situation themselves rather than jumping to conclusions.

Yeah. It's such great advice. And. And the experience that you had that you bring to your teams so valuable and what you learned, and then we just Keep on learning. I learned the good and the bad from coaches, so it wasn't just all good stuff, but, you know, the good stuff that I learned was pretty incredible. The one coach I had which I thought was a great idea, and at the time it sort of seems like, is this a great idea? We're like 10 years old and he's teaching us how to fight in hockey and the parents will like, I don't know if we like this. And he goes, I'm teaching them how to protect themselves. I'm teaching them how to not get hurt and if they're losing a fight, how to protect themselves. I'm not teaching them to go out and fight. I'm teaching them how to protect themselves. And then he did a drill with us. Like, if you and I were teammates, I would skate towards the boards and you would be right behind me and you had to take me into the boards as hard as you could. And the idea was to get over the fear of getting hit and you realize you really don't get hurt, right? No. Where you get hurt is when you tense up. And so he sort of taught us to stay loose. So then you weren't afraid, right, to get hit where it's that fear, my gosh, this is going to really hurt. You didn't have that fear. So just great drills like that that I thought were really interesting.

Yeah, A lot of the drills that I do in basketball with the younger groups is all contact, because so many kids are afraid to have that contact. And if you're just doing drill after drill, pretty soon you get to a game and you're not afraid to go in for a layup with contact. Contact. And just teaching them to take that in and, and crave it almost that you're going to draw that contact as you, as you go in. For sure.

Yeah. And it's the fear of it, of getting hurt that creates more, more problems because that's when you generally do get hurt. Is it when you sort of tense up and now you're not loose, but if you can just go in there and stay loose and expect that you're going to get hit, you're going to be a lot better for sure.

Yeah.

So what other ideas do you have in terms of that you'd like to share?

I have 13, 11, 10, and 7 year old, and they are all individuals and they're all different. And just because I love basketball doesn't mean that they're all going to love basketball. Just because my oldest likes it doesn't mean my youngest Is going to like it, what they love, and letting them try different things. Not pigeonholing them into something you think that they should do, or it's your ego that's getting in the way because you think that, oh, they're going to be tall, that they should do this, or they have this body type, so they should do this. I think it's allowing them to be creative with what. What they enjoy. I absolutely love basketball. I was convinced that all my kids are going to play basketball and they're going to love it like I do. Right. And that's not necessarily the case. And I'm okay with that. And I have to be okay with that. And I think as parents, if we just take a step back and understand that they're individuals and this is their journey, and yeah, they're going to naturally gravitate towards things that we enjoy, too. But understanding that to have an open mind and be okay with them liking something different and embracing that, I think that just allows your children more to feel safe and more individualized in their own skin.

I think what people miss is what sports actually does. The amount of people that become professionals is so small. But I look back at all the lessons I got from sports. Some of the greatest teaching that I ever had all came from sports that, you know, helped me understand how to be successful in anything you do. Working hard, being observant. Right. Making mistakes, learning from your mistakes. Now, you and your husband have a business, so tell us a little bit about the business that you're building.

Yeah, so we have a home services business. We do plumbing, heating, cooling, drain cleaning. I was in athletics before, so I went to school to be an athletic director, and I did that for a year at my alma mater and then went to corporate. I was too far away from home, so I went into corporate. And then I met my husband when I was living in St. Paul and working in Minneapolis, traveling all over the country. Country. And I was coaching basketball at the time and working for the Timberwolves and links, doing stats and gophers, things like that, camps. And we met and we made the decision that I was going to come work with him. And so, newly married, business of three employees working in the office. Starting from. Not square one. His dad started the business in 81, but, you know, square one with the new processes and procedures that I'd implement. We have over 20 employees now and continuing to grow. You know, I'm not in the business full time anymore. I'm in Bearcat coaching. But during that process of how much we have learned together just on the growth of business and coaching and raising children and doing all these different things. It's an unbelievable experience. I wouldn't say it's for everyone, but it's a pretty incredible experience when you can become teammates as well as soulmates. I feel very fortunate that I've been able to work with my husband for that long of a time, and we still love each other.

That's pretty good. You could do that. I remember what Tommy Losorda said one time, what's the secret to managing in the major leagues for so long? And he says, the secret is to keep the people who hate you away from the people who haven't made up their mind yet.

I love that. That's awesome.

But what you learned as a teammate has helped you become, you know, a teammate with your husband. And, you know, sometimes you didn't like your teammate, sometimes you didn't get along with the team made, but you still had to pull, you know, in the same. Same direction.

You met Greg. I mean, he coached, too. And I think both of us being coaches has helped tremendously with us being able to grow a business together, because we understand what it takes, like you said, to make a good team and that not everybody gets coached the same. And him and I are. We communicate the same.

When I was coaching my son's baseball team, we got to play in Cuba for Canada against the Cubans, which was pretty cool, wearing the Canadian uniform. Had that team for five years. And the things that we would do is we would have all the kids over to the house for a sleepover. All the parents would come, there'd be a big barbecue, and then it was just absolutely them against me. And so we had all of these things, and we lived out in the country, right? So it was sort of dark at night. There's a big forest behind us and everything. So it would be that thing. They had to catch me, right? And they could, like, torture me, whatever they wanted to do, and. But I had all these traps set up, right? So one time that I let them see me, and I go tearing around the corner, corner, right? And just as they come around the corner, I've got the tennis ball machine. I'm going, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, right? And just as they come around the corner, I've got the tennis ball machine. I'm going, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And it was so funny because they would run away. They had so much fun with it. And then one time it was up on the balcony, and they're all walking, they're looking for me, they can't find me. I got a bucket full of water. And just as when they get in there, I dump the bucket of water on them. And they would have so much fun with it. And then it was like whoever fell asleep first was in trouble. But I became, like, part of their fun. And it was. They just loved it. And these kids talked about it for years and, you know, the enjoyment they got out of it. My wife wasn't so happy about it because there'd be shave cream, you know, put around the house, like shave cream fights and.

Yep.

Yeah, all kinds of stuff. But they. They absolutely loved it.

I think that's something so important to remember is that they're not going to remember the wins and losses. They're going to remember how they felt and the relationships. And that. That's one thing that for sports is the relationships that it has brought me and the. The different connections and things like that, how different people made me feel. I had the amazing opportunity to meet Pat Summitt when I worked for the Women's Basketball Coaches Association.

Wow.

I never met this woman. And my friend, who was a photographer at the time, introduced us. And this is right after grad school, our senior year of college. We watched all of her tapes, videotapes. This is aging me. Before our playoff games, to watch her playoff runs, you know, just idolize this woman up and down. And the first thing she says to me is, Kathy, sometimes the great ones slip through the cracks. And for her to say something like that to me, what do you think that did for my confidence? Like, just that one sentence. And I think we underestimate the impact that we can have as individuals for other people. And coaches have such an opportunity to do that for young people. You know, you just don't want to downplay the impact that you can have on other people with just one sentence that can change their life.

So true. It reminds me of when we represented that town that we lived in. You had to have tryouts because everybody has to have a fair chance. So everybody would try out, and we pretty much know what our team's going to be. We're looking for sort of that diamond in the rough. But you never know. It's probably not going to show. Show up. But every year I would hold five practices and tryouts even though we knew those kids aren't going to make the team. The other coaches were saying, why are we wasting our time? Like, hold a tryout, make the cut? And I went, no, because we're supposed to pour into these kids There was this one kid, I remember he came and there was no chance this kid's going to make it. But I worked with them constantly. And then when we made the cuts, I called every single one one of them and talked to them and I shared with them the improvements I saw what I would like to see them working on. That one kid came every year and his father thanked me. He knew this kid's not going to make the team, but he was so appreciative because I'd say, here's what I really saw. You do like you really improved in this area and that area. Keep working on it. Right? But those kids, all these kids need that kind of stuff.

Yeah, yeah. It doesn't matter if they're trying out for a team or if they're on the actual team. And this is where I talk about business and sports like we do. 90 day meetings with all of our employees. Where you at? You know, not only business wise, but personal wise. It's no different for a team. And when you're in season, you should be meeting with your players at least once a week to gauge on it. And it just has to be a 15 minute check in. Hey, how's life going? What can I help you with? You know, all these different things. Huge kudos to you for doing that for those kids. Because there's so many times kids will go to these tryouts and feel so defeated and they may not want to come back again or they just stop trying. What if that kid was just on the cusp? What if they have an opportunity? They just haven't grown into their own body yet. You know, don't steal that dream from that kid just because that one time they weren't able to make that certain team. And I think that's such a great lesson for all of us is pour into people, no matter what. It doesn't matter if they're the top or the bottom. Just pour into them because they know.

They need it and you could see the difference. You know, he would be disappointed, no question. But I also used the time to show him what he was actually doing and what he was improving in. Because it was true, he was improving. Right. And one of the things that I shared with him, and this is absolutely. It was so funny. It was true story. One of the practice drills we would do is we would have a pitcher throwing a ball, but I had like a blue dot, a red dot, a green dot, you know, on the ball. Right. And so for our players who are on the team, I made them a little Smaller. But for the other guys, I made them a little bigger because I wanted them to be able to. So the idea was you're not hitting, so they're not swinging. I said, all I want you to do is stand in the batter's box and watch the ball go into the glove and then tell me what color the dot was. The idea is to train them to start really following the ball, pick up the spin. And so this one guy's in there and pitcher throws the ball, right? And I said, what color is it? And he goes, red. And the catcher holds up the ball, it's blue. Five out of five. He's wrong, right?

Yeah.

And so I said to him, these are fairly good sized dots. So I said to my. Are you colorblind? And so he goes, no. And I said, okay. I said, I'm surprised that you haven't, you know, seeing that well, that you're not seeing these dots. And he goes, well, I have my eyes closed. He thought he was supposed to guess.

Oh, no, no.

He thought it was a guessing game. And I said, I don't think I explained this drill very well.

I love kids and how literal they are on different things that we do. The first year I played basketball, fourth grade, our coaches in practice taught us how to play defense, but they wanted us to use our feet. So they said, keep your hands behind your back when you're playing defense so you could use your feet to play defense. Right. Makes sense. So we get to our first game and I go out there. Well, first of all, I thought it was. Was like hockey line changes. So I could just run in whenever I could because I watched my brothers play hockey. I learned that quickly. But then I started playing defense with my hands behind my back because that's how we practiced it. That's how I thought it was. So it's so funny when you explain to these kids the drill. They take things so literally. Yeah, that makes me laugh. That he had his eyes closed the whole time.

Oh, my God. And I'm standing behind him so I can't see. Right.

Yeah.

But what I said to him afterwards, even when I called him, you know, to say, didn't make the team, I said to him, I gotta tell you, I admire you that you would stand in a batter's box with a pitcher throwing a baseball at you and you had the courage to do. I said, I wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have had my eyes closed when a pitcher's throwing a ball. I probably would have said, coach, I don't think this is a good idea. Teachers, coaches have such a major influence on kids. And the fact that you're doing this, congratulations, because that's a big commitment to do that.

Yeah, it, it's definitely my soul's purpose. I was just on a call yesterday with a, a dad and I've been working with his daughter for a year now. We both started crying because it was such a profound moment. He's like making change in his life, but he's also seeing the changes that his daughter's making. When you start to understand like how important a coach is not just for sports, not just for the physical side, but having a coach for your mind and what that can do for you and do for your child and help them navigate through all these that they're experiencing and then seeing the outcome and having them process it now and gain those skills now rather than, you know, paying for it later and going through all these experiences. We all have to go through our experiences. But if we can set them up for success and give them the tools to process these different things, I just, I'm just blown away with the gratefulness of that. I've found my soul's purpose. I'm able to do this. I've been put in the position and the journey just like you and how you get there. Like nobody would have wish that that would have happened to your daughter. But look at the outcome and what has happened. I just think it's such an incredible thing.

We learned so much from all of that. And again, going back to coaching, when I coached the team with my son's team, we went down to Cuba. There was a team that was a year older than us down in Cuba. They have their own like academies. There's kids go to school for that sport. They're either soccer, baseball, or whatever it is. So we would be going, playing. So we were playing really that what would have been should have been the freshman team, you know. And so we get there, we're all excited, excited. And the very first game, we jump out to a three nothing lead. And all of a sudden I see this six foot kid in the bullpen warming up. Sure enough, he comes in right shuts us down. And as we started to get some rallies going, they started making substitutions. And I realized the guy who's wearing number five at third base is not the same number five that started the game. And they're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, same. No, he's like six inches taller, another 30 pounds. What they were doing, instituting their freshmen with some of the varsity guys and things like that. Our parents were talking to the. The parents on the other team, and we're getting all this information. So we lost the first game, and at nighttime we came back and all the parents are like, this is wrong. Like, what are we going to do about it? And the other team, they had the same problem. And so they were saying, we're going to protest. And so I sat my kids down and I said, we're going to be playing six games here. And I said, we can ruin our entire trip by getting so mad and frustrated. Or here's the lesson that I want you to know. They can't beat you straight up. So let's come out of this even if we don't win a game knowing that we played hard. And I don't think they're trying to embarrass us because you could see them rotating, right, because they got four different teams in the same high school so they could interchange players. And we saw them switching jerseys to do it all. And I said, so do you want to get match mad or do you want to take it as a compliment? Our kids, we never won a game, right. We played close. We got into, you know, some tight games. They weren't trying to embarrass us. This is their life. Let's just take it as a compliment and move on. The other team were furious. They were, you know, complaining constantly. Ruin their trip.

Yeah, yeah. What an. What an amazing example of somebody stepping up and looking at something with curiosity and teaching these young people a huge life lesson. And the takeaways that those young men walked away from versus the other team of how to handle those type of situations. Like we need more adults to stand up and approach situations like that so our young people can learn how to handle adversity in a more curious manner.

Kids had a blast. They were heroes. Everywhere they were going. People were loving to come and see them. And they had just a great experience. And so that's how we came, came back. We didn't come back with the wins. I think head to head, we probably would have won the majority of the games. We wouldn't. Probably won all of them, but we still had a great time.

Yeah, we talked a little bit about youth sports when we were together a couple weeks ago. And, you know, you talk about the importance of winning games, and I think we put too much emphasis on that in youth sports. Instead of learning the true lesson of what it means to be a team. A lot, a lot of times in these youth sports, I see the focus of on the star players. Okay. So I'm just going to use youth basketball for an example. We don't play team basketball. We set screens for this specific player to run off and do a layup. Okay. That can get you so far. But as these kids get older and not allowing them to make mistakes as a team, like push the ball up and turn it over and being okay with that, because Sally can't quite catch the ball right now, but she's going to get there. But we have to teach our players to look up. So we have to make sure that we're looking towards the future and not just focusing on the right now with youth sports and allowing these kids to, like we talked about before, make mistakes because it's only going to make them better for when they transition into older groups and work together. And now you're playing team ball. Everybody gets involved and everybody has a chance and to. And to progress and knowing that it's okay if you mess up, because we know that you're going to eventually get it, and then it's going to be gravy train. Right. So I'm so passionate about that with youth sports, is making sure that if you're building a program. Program, if you're wanting these kids to all play together, we have to be able to not just focus on the star players, but make sure that everyone is involved on all accounts and parents, anybody.

Parents listening to this. This is such an important lesson. What you had said earlier in the day is that when you try to teach your own kids, right. The saying is, you're a prophet everywhere except your own home. Everybody else thinks you got great advice. Your kids, not so much. But if I was having my kids, if you were my kids coach, I would be thrilled because I know that they would learn from you and I wouldn't have to worry about them. Right. They would be really good. That's what I think you bring, and that's what I saw. So I have no doubt in my mind how successful you will be and you are based on the way you do things. So, yeah, I'm really sincere. That's why I wanted you on the podcast, because I said parents and coaches are going to learn so much from you just by understanding that. And you've got that background and experience. And then you now take in what I do with the trauma side. How do you see trauma affecting these kids now that you have even a better understanding after going through the program what trauma's doing to these kids?

Yeah. I keep telling people, like, it was just like, such a aha moment. And also a confirmation of when I had worked with that Minnesota west team. And I thought, man, these kids are going through all this trauma, and if we could just help them process this and do that. Holding onto that trauma limits you in so many ways that you have no idea. It is blocking so much of your potential because you're bottling that up and bogging it down. And I think about that for myself, like, I was experiencing trauma when I was in college, and it. It blocks so many different opportunities. You know, you shoulda, woulda, coulda, right? But understanding it now and how that would have helped me progress in my athletic career and took care of it, then if you are willing to tackle it or acknowledge it and go through the process to work through your trauma, you'd be so unbelievably surprised on what that can unlock. And it's not just sports. It's overall, in your whole life, the confidence that it brings in just life in general. Just learning more and more about it through you and studying it and through other people and mentors, it becomes more and more evident that trauma held in our bodies is limiting us from so much that we're able to conquer in our lives.

So true. And like I said, I was so fortunate to have an amazing childhood. And so the things that I learned through that, this is probably a great example of just that. I remember we were playing in a game. It was a playoff game. It was a semifinals. We were tied 1 1, and the winner moves on to the finals. And there was six seconds left on the clock. So the coach calls a timeout. And the face off was in their end. I'm the best face off guy in the league. So the coach says, okay, here's the plan. He sets up the play, right? And so we have our big shots, like, behind me. And the idea is, so the winger's supposed to block the guys from getting to the guys with a shot. I get the puck back, right? And so I still never forget this. So I look and I see the setup that their team is also setting, which is to get back to those guys and block the shot. I'm realizing nobody has defended the goalie. They're all anticipating the play. And so what I did is when the puck got dropped, instead of pulling the puck back, I pushed the puck forward, and everybody's going back, and it's me against the goalie, right? And I scored the goal. And so obviously, that was the game, right? And I come back to the bench, everybody's all happy. My coach, he goes, you know, that wasn't the play. You're lucky at work. Yeah, yeah, but I wasn't afraid to try it. But I saw what I saw and I wasn't afraid. And my dad said to me after the game when we were getting back out of the car, he says, I could it do. Just tell. I saw the way you looked around.

Right.

And he says, and you saw that that was the best play. Right. But again, it's that not having fear and what trauma does. Right. So if I had had a lot of trauma, I would have been so afraid to make a mistake and take that chance. Even though it was probably the 80% play.

Yeah, right.

I would have said, I'll take the. I'll take the 10% because my coach told me I have to. And I don't want to get in trouble. I don't want to be yelled at.

Yeah, it just. Eliminating those different things that are holding you back allows you to look at the game in a whole different way and experiment with those different things and be in that flow state like we talked about. I remember playing in a conference tournament in college and we were in the semifinals of the conference tournament. And the summer before, I had interned for the conference office, the nsic. And so I had gotten to know those people and I knew they supported me and cared about about me. And I set the conference record for three pointers that tournament, and I hadn't shot that well my entire career. And looking back now, it was totally because I felt supported and I felt loved and I felt safe in that environment because I knew that they knew me and were supporting me. And I think about all the kids that I work with or a lot of the kids that I work with, and how they are so worried about what other people think of them, whether they get brought up at a young age and they're afraid that other people or parents are going to judge them, or if they make a mistake, then other people are going to think that they don't belong out there. And if we could just get rid of those thoughts and what that allows you to do and perform at a different level, think about what that could do for your athletic career, for sure.

And that's why our whole program is called the Inspired Performance Program. Trauma is just interfering. So to wrap up, tell me what you feel after going through our program, how it's made you improve as a coach, a parent, a business owner. What did you get from it?

So many improvements. I just walked away with a lot of clarity and focus. I feel like I know my specific mission. I speak way more clearly. It's hard to describe, but, like, all in is kind of how I like to describe it. I had this hint that trauma was a big part of the story that was going along with how I was coaching as well. But then meeting with you and understanding it even more and how you teach it, it hits home on everything that, you know, I have experienced in my life, and I continue to work with these different athletes. So walking away with it and going through your program and your experiences and following through and doing the recordings and everything that you teach just continues to enhance my life each and every day and give me more and more confidence and push me on my mission to help other student athletes.

Awesome. Well, it's been an amazing pleasure. I knew it would be so much fun to get you on this, and we're going to get this out and share it with the world because I think there's so many lessons that people are going to learn from both of us. You know, about coaching, parenting. Right? And life.

Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much for allowing me. And I just feel like it's such a privilege to meet you and know the changes in what you're doing and through your Inspire Performance Institute. It's unbelievable. And I'm thankful that God brought us together and that we're able to connect. For sure.

Yeah, I am as well. So thank you, Kathy. And thank you, everybody, for listening to another episode of you Must Be out of youf Mind. And there it is.