Watch the Full Podcast of 'You Must Be Out of Your Mind" with Shannon Polson now!

Welcome to my podcast, you Must Be out of youf Mind. My name is Dr. Don Wood. I use my knowledge of neuroscience to create what I call a memory reset. This reduces and eliminates the impact of trauma. I can't wait to share with you how the impossible is possible and why you must be out of your mind.

So welcome to another podcast of you Must Be out of youf Mind. I'm your host, Dr. Dawn Wood. And as you know, we always bring in exciting guests to talk about the brain, the mind, and performance and what they do. And there's always a tie in. And today is a great, great guest that will really enlighten us on performance. So Shannon Paulson is my guest and I'd like to welcome you to the you Must Be out of your Mind podcast. Welcome, Shannon.

Thank you. Don is really wonderful to be with you.

So I was really looking forward because you've got such an amazing background and what you've done. So this isn't, you know, you know, typical, you know, female helicopter. Right. Apache helicopters.

Right.

That's.

Everyone does it. Everyone does it.

I thought. Yeah. Doesn't everyone fly Apache helicopters? Right. So what I loved is you talked about how you're. It's in your DNA to do what you're doing, and I love that because I believe. And I'll share a little bit about what I believe, but our early environment that we grow up in has such an influence on what we end up doing in our lives and how we live our lives. So tell me about your background. I'm assuming that's what you're talking about was in your DNA on how to do what you do.

Yeah, I mean, I think part of it is kind of how we are born into the world. Right. And because as I have two children and I'm, you know, one of three, and we're all so different, even though we grew up in the same environment in the same family. So part of it is just who we are and our makeup and how we're born. We. But I also grew up, I know, closer in latitude to where you used to live. So I grew up in Alaska. I was born in Alaska. My dad was in the military just for a couple of years of my life. And we always say in Alaska, it's where men are men and where women win the Iditarod. So it's very much a sense of equality and potential and the opportunity and the need to contribute. And so I do think that that growing up in a harsh environment where everybody was expected to pull their own weight and needed to pull their own weight was a big part of how I ultimately ended up doing what I ended up doing.

Yeah, that's really interesting. Your dad was military. So what branch was he in?

Well, so he was drafted for Vietnam out of law school. And he ended up realizing along the way, after he trained in combat engineers, that someone said, hey, you know, you could be in the jag. So he went to Charlottesville. He trained as a JAG attorney, which is Judge Advocate General, so he was actually an army lawyer. And they sent him to Alaska instead of Vietnam at the last minute. So he ended up doing a lot of drug cases in the 70s. Right. Late 60s and early 70s in Alaska, flying all over. And he was so grateful for the experience and his service. And the concept of service was something that was very integral to our family, not just from his military experience, but also in what we did as a family. Through our church, we would always make meals for people who didn't have enough. We made sure we volunteered. I would come home from college, and my dad and I would drive around and deliver food to people on Christmas Eve that didn't have enough. And so that concept of when you are blessed with enough, you have both the responsibility and the opportunity to give back, and I think that that has been very much a part of what has made me who I am today.

I love that. I love that. Well, I was adopted, and I always knew I was adopted from when I was born. I mean, I never didn't know. But what I talk about is, is that I grew up in this idyllic childhood. I had the most amazing parents. They were in their mid-40s when they adopted me, and only because they were sort of asked if they would, because. And they didn't really want to, but then they agreed. And so. But they were so incredible. They never argued, never fought. My brother and sister, and I can't remember them raising their voice.

Wow.

Yeah. I mean, and I thought everybody had that family. I didn't realize that that wasn't what everybody was living with. So I'm growing up in that world. My nervous system stayed really regulated. And so I was able to, you know, get the little bumps along the way. You know, friends or teachers or coaches. Right. But I could regulate my nervous system very easily because it sounds like I had the same kind of home as you where I felt safe.

Yes. Yes, I will say. I mean, I think mine was.

Perhaps more. We used the word passionate, I believe, growing up. But.

I will not say that I never heard people raise their voices that is not a family characteristic, actually. But. And then my parents actually divorced when I was 12, which I feel like so many people's parents are divorced. Maybe that's not a big deal. But I still think of that. And we're going to talk about a lot of other things today. I still think of that as the most traumatic event of my life. And part of it is that I was 12, I suppose part of it is that I assumed this sort of mantle of safety and foundation of safety and that rocked my world. And I think that also has formed me in good and bad ways. I think towards good ends ultimately into who I became.

Yeah. Because at 12 that actually is a trauma. A lot of people don't think of it that way. It's interesting that you sort of picked up on that. You know, it was. Yes, because as a 12 year old that really rocks your world and your stability. And because a 12 year old doesn't have enough life experience to understand what they just experienced. It's like, well, if mom and dad don't love each other anymore, is it possible they aren't going to love me anymore? Right. And then that's how a child can see it. And even a 12 year old. Right. So a little older, but especially when you talk about really young children, it has a major effect on them. Between Those ages of 4 and 7, their world is being formed and so if they have a divorce during that time, all of a sudden the world doesn't feel safe.

Right, right. And I think even, you know, as a 12 year old, the way that I took that. And it's funny, I've never really talked about this in the podcast. I don't think.

Even talk about it in my books, but. But yeah, I think it led to me feeling like that it wasn't safe. I didn't want to be part of the family counseling sessions. I had zero interest in that because I think I probably didn't feel safe and I hadn't really thought of it in that way before, but that's likely the case. And so what that led me to do was to over perform. So I basically I, you know, I was on, I was swim team captain, I was the debate team captain, I led the literary magazine. And so my father passed away now 17 years ago in an accident. And I think we're likely to talk about that as well. And when I found his journals, he writes, you know, Shannon's doing great, she's involved in all these things. And I was thinking I was not doing great, but I wasn't about to let anybody know that. And so I found a way to over perform in a sense. And. And. And I get. I get joy out of that as well. Like, I love that sense, but I think I needed that sense of validation, really, that. That I was. That I was fine and that I could do good things and make it.

And you could. Yeah. And you could take charge. Right, so. Because all of a sudden there's nobody there backing you up. Right, so.

Exactly.

It's amazing how those kinds of things. So they can have some positive effects, but they can also have those kinds of traumas really tend to linger. Like, my daughter is a good example. My daughter was living in the pretty much the same home we grew up in, but we didn't know that she had had some trauma when she was 6, some abuse that she didn't tell us, and she was high performing. So she's this happy, loving kid. She's an actress. She was acting since she was little, and so she could put on a tremendous front. Just like you were saying, well, your dad was saying, oh, Shannon is doing great. Right. You were putting on a good face. Right. But it wasn't, you know, so that was my daughter, the same thing. And she ended up with Crohn's, ended up with another autoimmune disorder called idiopathic pulmonary hemosiderosis, which is where the lungs start filling up. Up with blood. She started coughing up blood. And. And that's how I started the program, was because we really thought. My wife and I said, we're going to lose our daughter if we can't figure out why this is happening. And through my research, I traced it back to the trauma. It was all coming from trauma, because trauma creates inflammation in the body and that compromises the immune system and the neurotransmitters. So now she was starting to get sick, and everybody's saying, well, just got to take her off of gluten and dairy. And there's no cure for Crohn's. There's no. We don't know what causes it. We don't know what causes this. Iph and I. That's where I figured it out and developed. The whole program was because of that. Because even, like I said, in the best circumstances and the, you know, and the best homes and good homes. Right. Those kinds of things can be having an effect. I was fortunate. My wife says we were the perfect petri dish, because I at least knew what the model was. I was living that model. I played hockey, so I didn't have any kind of trauma. And because I was a hockey player, I could protect myself and fight. You don't pick on the hockey players. Right. They don't get bullied. And so I just skated through life thinking, everybody has this life. It's easy. Right. But most people aren't. So even the things like, you know, a divorce can have an effect on you.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. No, it's. And I think even when we learn how to deal with those things in a way that at least appears to be productive, the impact of it continues. Right. And clearly with your daughter, that was the case. I think I am finding, as I get to a place where I can be more thoughtful about how I've lived my life. And then again, I think I've been able to be really productive and make a difference in a lot of really meaningful and important ways. And yet there's a piece of that that is driven by need for that validation, for that. That opportunity to contribute. Because. And that's the part that I need to work on. Right. Is that because of this other trauma that has happened at various points. And so I think that's a really interesting way to look at it. Even if you're happy with the results, say, okay, now I still need to work on healing this piece that is. Is. Is damaged.

Yeah. And it continues to loop. And that's what I found out from the research is as long as the trauma is looping, it's going to continue to activate your NER system, which is then going to affect behaviors and habits. And. And so that's what just happens. And so. So many people are dealing with that. The good part about it is we can reset it. And that's really what I do, is reset the memory, and then that stops calling for the action. So you can still remember it. Right. But it's not going to have that nervous system effect that so many people are dealing with.

Yes. Well, you know, and Don, when we. I started the work on my most recent book is called the Grip Factor, you know, and this looks at. It looks at leadership, it looks at resilience. And so we're approaching this from. From different angles. I know. But I ended up interviewing leaders in the vanguards of their field. Right. Over several years. And they happen to be women, they happen to be military. They're general officers across the services. There's combat rescue swimmer from the Coast Guard. There are one of the first women Army Rangers, and many, many more. And all of them shared their stories and their lessons learned. So candidly. But what came out of it, and I think this relates here is this grit triad. Right. With. So that grit is not this discrete thing. It's not just about kind of sucking it up and getting through. It has to be much bigger than that. And part of the contents of our character, and I like your line of questioning really goes to what's your background? What did you experience? And so the foundation of this grit triad, there's this imagine this triangle, right. Is the commit phase. And the commit phase is about owning your story and it's drilling down to core purpose. But that owning your story piece, it seems to me you're really addressing with the work that you do as well. And at the end of the day, that's the foundation of grit and resilience for sure.

And what I call that is your atmospheric conditions.

Yeah, yeah.

What atmospheric conditions did you grow up in? So my wife grew up in very stormy, dark atmospheric conditions with a very violent, angry father. I'm growing in none of that. Right. And so that shaped the way my system. So I've been healthy all my life. I haven't had any health issues. Right. Where she has Hashimoto's. My daughter had two of those things. It shows up in our health as well.

Yeah.

You know, a lot of people learn to manage and cope with it. My wife was high functioning. She didn't get into drugs or alcohol. She just lived in fear. So she was always worried about what was going to go wrong, something's going to happen. And I couldn't convince her of that until we could get that memory reset and stop that.

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean the work of, although the commit phase is owning your own story, drilling down to core purpose. That's the foundation of a three pronged approach. Right. That takes a ton of work. It takes a huge amount of work and effort and focused introspection. Right. And that is, it's not, I always say it's not back of the napkin work. When I do a keynote to big companies and organizations, I'll say, you know, we're going to talk about these concepts. But this is not back of the napkin. You can't just do this on the envelope that you have in your, your, your packet for the conference and then think you're done. This is thoughtful considered. Quiet space, quiet time, going for walks, really spending that time in, in, in, in interrogating what, what your past teaches you. And it teaches you lots of good things. Right. It's not just, hey, these bad things are here and I pushed them aside and there's, there's Trauma that that's super important to identify, to be able to address. And there's also, hey, this is how I got past this thing. This is how I learned from overcoming this challenge or this obstacle. Here's where I failed. Here's what I learned from that failure. Here's where I succeeded, but also where I learned something that I needed to work on. And so you going through this storyline, I actually have exercises at the end of each chapter of the Grit Factor and at the end of chapter one, we go through a journey line not one time, but four times with different levels of interrogation and really going deep into understanding your own story. And then you're right. When you're, when you go into that and you're honest about the fact that there's trauma or there's something in it, then you need to. Need to talk to you.

That's right. Yeah, we reset that for you.

There you go.

Well, yeah. So, you know, you were just saying is that people think they want to do it quick because everything's about quick. Right. So I'm sure people are sitting in your, in your, you know, seminars and stuff like that saying, like, well, we have all this done like before the break.

Well, right. And you know, that is why at the end of the day. So I obviously, the work of writing the books takes several years and lots of research and taking all of these stories and pulling them together and figuring out what's cohesive about those and what are the lessons learned and how do we make tactical applications for people doing the secondary research. But then I typically, I give keynotes and I love giving keynotes to big audiences. It's a ton of fun now that we're doing them virtually as well as on stage. And yet that's usually a 45 minute sort of a thing with Q and A. Right. And you can't go deep in that time. And that's where with the Grit Institute and I put together the Paths to Purpose training, which is a six week program, it can take longer. You can take as long as you want, unless a company does it together. And then we can bring the company through that program together or any group of people, leadership cohort, whatever, because then you can go deep and then you can really spend time thinking about, reading about, watching and responding to these different paths into this story and this purpose. And that's the time you've got to take. But really it's a lifetime sort of an activity. True. You do the, you do the deep work and then you do it again and then you do it again and you go deeper and deeper.

Yeah, no, I love, I love that. Well, it's one of the things, and I would love to talk to you about grit and resilience, but I'm going to share a story that I think helped me about grit and resilience is When I was 13, hockey was my number one sport, but tennis was my second sport. And so the, the pro who taught me was sort of had this Buddhist mentality. He was really cool. And so when I was about 13, he said to me, he goes, you want to really be a great tennis player, right? And I said, yeah. So he looks around to see if anybody's looking and then he says, okay, I'm going to tell you the secret, you know, and at 13 you actually think there is a secret. So I'm like, okay, give me the secret. And he goes, lose a lot. And I said, I don't know what you mean. And he says, well, you're playing in the 13 and 14 year old division, you can win in those divisions. He says, go play in the 15, 16 year old division, 17 and 18 year old divisions. He says, the game's going to be faster, the guys are bigger and stronger. He says, but you haven't seen that, so you can't. But if you get in there and you start seeing that speed, your athletic ability will start to catch up to it.

But the only way you're going to be able to do that and improve at a faster level is to lose a lot. And if you're not willing to do that right, go keep playing and winning. What a great piece of advice. That was one of the, that was about grit and resilience. Right.

So you're absolutely right. I mean, you have to be able to push yourself, right. And to take those risks. And Don, this is a perfect set, which I'm not sure you intended to do, but of course after the commit phase, you have the learn phase and the launch phase. And learn is this deep engagement in the present that's building your team, deep listening and the mindset of grit and resilience. Right. That which is actually critical to the entire thing. And then the launch. And the launch starts with audacity. And audacity is this willingness to take risk, the willingness to face fear and failure. And that is so hard for so many of us, but it's so critical to success. I love that story. That's just spectacular.

And it taught me everything about overall in life as well. So I even did it in my hockey. So I remember I was 14 and my parents, because where we played, we weren't allowed to play another team, so they took me way outside the area to play in a division with 17 and 18 year olds.

Oh, my gosh, that's awesome.

And so I'm 14, so I look like I'm probably 14, right? They lie and they say, oh, no, he's 17, right? They're not checking back then. And so it was like. And I remember when I got there, the, the coat, the coaches were there and they said, well, somebody needs to take this kid on the team. And, you know, so I'm looking small, right, compared to these guys, and nobody wants me. Like, they're like, no, no. And then Finally I remember Mr. Wiseman was the coach. Big guy, weighed about 400 pounds. And finally he says, I'll take the kid, right? So I end up in the dressing room. He says, what position do you play? And I said, I'm a centerman. And he goes, we don't need another centerman. He goes, what shot? What do you shoot, left or right? And I said, left. He goes, you're going to be a right winger now. So he put me on right wing, says, you're going to play right wing. I said, okay. So I'm on the bench. And he puts out the first line, second line, third line, fourth line, fifth line. I still haven't played yet. And then finally, he holds back. The right winger on that next line says, all right, kid, get out there, right? And within three minutes, I scored three goals.

Wow.

And I come back to the bench, it was so funny. He picked me up literally off the ground and goes, you're a hockey player.

Beating in that league because the guys are so much bigger, right? But I learned how to take a beating, right? And how to really suffer from those bigger guys hitting harder, right? But. And that's what I was so excited to talk to you because what kinds of people do you find are the best at, you know, developing that grit and resilience? Like, is there a formula that you see?

This is the beauty of it. I don't. There is not a formula. And when I interviewed these people, again, these are. These are general officers in every single military service, and they're women. And so they. They had to meet, they had to live through. Through. We had to live through. We do have to live through what Stanford Law Professor Deborah Rhodes called a double crucible. And that is incredible demands of the job, right? This is flying in combat. This is organizing logistics across Iraq. This is, I mean, everything you can imagine going in this in submarines. And they have to operate in an environment that is often hostile to their being there and resisting their being there. So at the same time they're doing two full time, full effort jobs for their careers. And that's, that's significant. And what came out of what's so interesting about this, and I just love it. I mean there's, there are a number of people that played sports, hence you obviously are one of those. So. And a number of these women, and I think this is actually true for women CEOs as well. When you look at that cohort, a number of them have sports, competitive sports in their background, meaning over 90% like significant numbers. Sports teaches you so much as, you.

Know, that's what I was looking. That's what I was wondering. Is that a big factor because it was.

Sports is absolutely a big factor. I'm curious about faith and music as factors, interestingly, just because they teach you to think in different ways and they teach you reliance in different, different things. Faith tends to be a big part of a lot of people's stories in the military, partly because of geographically where people come from in the Southeast and you know, and the Midwest. It was for my family too. So I, although I didn't fit either of those descriptors, but having a spiritual foundation is important. And actually I think pretty much every one of them would say that. However you define spirituality or God or whatever, whatever that is for you, it is critical because when the stuff gets really, really, really hard, like, like harder than the hockey game hard. Right. You gotta have something to that is that foundation. And, and you find at some point in your life that you are not enough. Right? That's. I think part of maturity is you learn that you're not actually big enough or strong enough, none of us are. To be able to do it on our own as part of team. That's part of spirituality. But the thing that I did find interesting, and I bring this up because I think it's so important for people to feel encouraged is not everyone was the star soccer player on their team or the star field hockey player. Some of them were not sporty at all. And they ended up getting into this and realizing that through a couple of trials that they had what it took. Because. And this is the key element. Grit is something that is innate to every single one of us. The key is how you find it, how you identify it, how you employ it. And, and I think we, it's important to, to reiterate this many times. It's not just for Military pilots or the military, it's not just for. For sports heroes. It's part of every single one of us. And one of the most wonderful ladies that I interviewed was one of the very first pilots in the Navy. Her name was Jane o', Day, and she just passed away. Her flight suit is hanging in Pensacola in the flight museum. And I talked to Jane. She had just gone on one of those skydiving, you know, those. Those big tubes where you skydive with her grandkids. She was, like, in her 70s, and. And she said, you know, the thing about it is my sister said. My sister was a nurse. She said, I could never have done what she did. I mean, her sister could never have done what she did, right. Flying off of carriers and in the middle of the night. But her sister is, you know, changing diapers for children and grownups and dealing with this incredible high stress. And she's like, you know what? She's got more grit than I ever had. So I think that's the thing, is not to get too caught up in what feels like it's sexy. Like. And I'm getting to the place where I'm old enough, where I'm like, let's get over ourselves a little bit here. Yeah, I flew Apaches. But, like, if you worked as a nurse in a, you know, in a. In a facility that's understaffed, I mean, man, that takes grit. And that's something that we all do have when we find ourselves in work that's meaningful, ideally aligned with purpose, ideally. And sometimes when you just need to get it done. So that's something that definitely came from the stories, the lessons, and the research of the grit factor. And I think that is something that should be encouraging for all of us.

I love what you just said, is that everybody has it. Because I say the first thing I say to when somebody sits down with me who dealing with, you know, they'll say, well, I have anxiety. I got post traumatic stress. I got that. And I said, there's nothing wrong with you, and there's nothing wrong with your mind.

Yes.

Mind is doing that for a reason. We just need to get to the root.

Sure.

Your mind is calling you into an action. What's the action it's asking you for? Right. And so once we identify that and we can get to the root of the issue, we can reset it. And so everybody has the ability, but they've had all these experiences in their life. The second book I wrote, I called Emotional Concussions, because they're not all about big T. Traumas. Right. So some people, the obvious ones, we know what they are.

Yeah.

But emotional concussions are that overly critical parent or the teacher that, you know, told you you're never going to be making, Never make it. You're not smart enough. The coach, you know, and I think because I was growing up in this such nurturing, loving home, I could deal with the coach that screamed and yelled at you, and I could deal with the coach that put his arm around you and told you you're. You're, you know, your brother, and we're going to fight this together. I could deal with both. But I would see my teammates, some of them with the yelling coach would just fold. They just couldn't handle that. And then other ones would, you know, rise up. It was always sort of different. And I think I had that unique because I had the nurturing home. But I also. They put me into hockey, which was almost brilliant because they gave me the toughness that I needed because I wasn't necessarily getting that at home. So it was a great balance in my life, and I think it helped me.

Yeah, that. No, that makes sense. But what I also like about what you're saying is that while you may have had teammates that folded in that circumstance, it could be. And in fact, I bet you it is true that they would rise up in others because their backgrounds are different, their. Their makeup is different. Right. And so I, I do feel like it's. We have a tendency to say, well, hey, they. They did this, but they couldn't do that. I'm like, yeah, but they could do something else, right? And, and, and so honoring that and saying, hey, we. And that is where the diversity comes in as well, right? Diversity. We all meaning diversity in every way. Like, we all come in with these different backgrounds, different experiences, different strengths, and at the end of the day, we need all of those for a successful organization, for a successful company. And we need everybody to have the opportunity to bring the best that they have to bear for their best contributions and recognize that that person that folds under this kind of pressure might be the perfect person to put over here for this kind of pressure. And that is. I think that's where it gets. Gets exciting, too.

I love that because this is. This fits in perfect. What I was just going to share with this, I played on a team, right, That I was the leading goal scorer in the league, and they somehow recruited the top five scores from the league onto this one team. So we had the five best scores in the league on this team, and we couldn't win.

Yeah.

Because we didn't have the diversity that you were talking about. Right. Everybody wanted to be the star. Everybody wanted to be the goal scorer. And they put me on this one line with this one guy. The guy was phenomenal. He was such a great hockey player. Right. But he wanted to do it all on his own. He was terrible teammate. Now, if you put him on a line, right, with role players, he was great. But you put him on a line with four other goal scorers or put him on, you know, that didn't work. And it should have worked. The best teams, whether the most diverse teams, you had your role players, you had your people that score the goals. And I think that's what you talk to. Right. When you talk to corporations.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. And there are these different ways. It's so interesting. I love this conversation because we're going in different directions than I typically do for this. But I'm thinking about this commit, learn and launch. And also thinking about which is this, you know, the framework for grit, this, the grit triad that we talk about and how that is so unique to the character of whichever person is showing up. And you do different work based on who it is that you are and what team it is that you need to build and support and how it is you need to show up and take those risks. But there are. It's the other. The flip side of this, and I want to bring this up because I just had a wonderful conversation about this recently, and I think this will very much seg into your work. And my work together is actually going to go back to my first book, which is north of Hope. And it's a very personal memoir about a trip that I took in Arctic Alaska, up in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. And my father and my stepmother had been killed the year before by a grizzly bear. They were on a kayaking trip on their 16th anniversary, and a grizzly bear came into their tent. And so I was very close to my dad, and I took the same trip the year after and followed the same route that they had taken. And I write in north of Hope about those two trips and the weaving of those two things together.

And it has occurred to me, as I wrote north of Hope, I was thinking, like, gosh, there's like, there's trauma from the military, too, right? There's all these different pieces of our lives. And for some reason, like addressing and being willing to go deep into north of Hope, into this book, into this. This really awful, awful thing, right? This highly traumatic. It was had statewide, even national attention, because, you know, that's the kind of thing that gets that kind of attention. Many people were impacted because they were very well loved and really active in their communities. And.

For some reason, it was easier for me to just like address that head on. Like say, okay, I know, you know, I always thought I would crumple when my dad died. And then he dies in this way and so early, and he was only 61. And so I, you know, I put myself in a grief group, which I would never have done. I told you, I avoided that when I was younger, right? I put myself into things that would support me because I was single at the time. You know, I. Now I'm fortunate to be married with, with two wonderful children. But at the time I was by myself and I was like, I've got to make sure I do not just fall apart and lose every, you know, completely fall out of my life. And yet there are other pieces of life that are taking a lot longer to process, right? Like, this is this big thing. And I was like, if I don't hit this, if I don't turn straight to this. I talk about facing the wind as an Apache pilot, right? All aircraft face the wind. You use the resistance to help you to rise. It's my favorite metaphor. Quote me if you use it.

I'm definitely gonna write that down.

But, you know, I was sort of like engineered to face the big challenges and then the, the day to day stuff that can just like wear you down is a lot harder for me to manage, frankly. And, and that takes a different kind of grit and a different kind of resilience. And so I think too, there's different kinds of grit and resilience that you need to deal with. Like, I could deal with getting in the Apache. I could fly the mission. I shot company Top Gun as a platoon leader. Like, I was, I was, I was really good at what I did, you know, and. But what was hard was that working in this environment where you are denigrated and disrespected and daily, I mean, sometimes hourly, right? And not by everybody. There's great people, there's wonderful people that I worked with that are some of the best I've ever known, but the environment was, was not that. And that, that is still is taking some time to process, frankly. I've been out for 20 years, you know, so I think there's these different pieces that are, we respond to in different ways. And the big things, like the big things that people pay attention to, I'm like Hey, I'm good at that. I can. I can nail that. And the other stuff. And this is where I think this seg so well that I'm just starting to learn now at 50 years old, is that it's okay to take care of myself. Right. And I have to convince myself that it's not selfish to say, you know what? I need to take time to work out. I need to take time to do some yoga and to do some prayer meditation and. And. And I've never given myself that permission because it felt selfish, like I always needed to be out proving myself doing something. Right. Give yourself permission to do that work that takes care of yourself so you can make it, you know, sustainably and show up again for other people. That's been really hard for me to do. And I feel like that's maybe a place where the grit factor doesn't venture as much into that. I'm just starting to do some work and thought around that, but that seems to seg more into more of what supports grit and resilience and kind of the work that you do as well.

Yeah, that's really fascinating because one of the things that I always talk about when, when I take people through the art, my process is I'll ask them at one point and I'll say, I want you to really think about this. Is it okay for you to be okay?

Yeah.

And you. Sometimes people will go, well, no, it's not fair, because why should I be okay if other people aren't okay? Some people immediately go, absolutely right. And what I say to them is, I said, because when you're okay, everybody you love and care for are better. Yeah, just what you're talking about. Right. You need to do your self care because your husband, your children. Right. Benefit from that. It's not selfish at all. It's if you're better, they're better. Right. They don't have to do anything. Right. For their lives to be better.

Yes.

And then, you know, I use a sort of a story which I think sort of illustrates this as I say, and you. You'll get this. I didn't know this could be possible. The story about Sully Sullenberg who landed the plane in the Hudson River.

Right, right.

And I say, first of all, I didn't know you could do that. Just got to be a pretty accomplished pilot to be able to do something like that, for sure. And I said, but the most remarkable part of the story wasn't landing the plane in the river. The most remarkable part of the story was how Calm. He stayed. So when he communicated to his crew and communicated to his passengers, he did it in a very authoritative tone, like, like, we're going to land the plane, like on a landway, you know, on a landing strip. Right. That's the way he was communicating to them. And so everybody stayed calmer. That allowed the crew to do their job, allowed the passengers to help each other. So what I say to everybody, as I said, you just need to land the plane. You don't have to be responsible for everybody. Just keep yourself in regulation.

Right.

Land the plane. And everybody else will, you know, follow along. They'll follow your leadership. It's all about leadership.

Yes. Yes, that's true. I, I have not actually seen the movie, although I would really like to.

Great movie.

On the list. Yeah. I, I actually, I'm like, how have I not seen that yet? That's because I have kids. Because we're, we're dealing with the string kids. That's why. That's the answer to lots of my questions. But, but, but even people that are good in those circumstances, and this is where I wanted to give, like, honor the, the challenges that are beneath some of that. A lot of people that are good in a circumstance like that, yes, you need to land the plane. You need to be calm. You need to be authoritative in that sense. Sometimes they're not good at taking care of themselves. Right. And I think. And actually in more circumstances than we're often admit, they're not able to take care of themselves very well. And, and that is where I think there's opportunity to do some more holistic work in that space. And, and I'm one of those people that, that does those big things, but not as much the small things. Well, right. And. And you start to realize at a certain point you can do that till about 40 or 50, and then you better start, you better start paying attention to the small things, because I'll catch up to you.

They do. It shows up in your health all the time. And the reason I was excited to talk to you too is because as a, as a woman, what you've been able to accomplish is so incredible. Like, you've. Most women wouldn't even think that they could do, but they could. Right. But they just don't take that. So pioneers like you are fantastic. And so one of the things that we look at, and I talk about this all the time, is that there was a study done in 1995-97 by the CDC and Kaiser Permanente on ACEs, which is trauma. Right. On children and so ACEs are adverse childhood experiences. So if they've had, I don't know if you know, the study. Have you heard of the study?

Yes. Yes, yes.

Yep. So if you had zero aces, you know, then chances are you're going to be have more, you know, less trauma in your life. So you're gonna not have as many health problems. Four more ACEs start leading to all these different health problems.

Right.

But the thing that I always talk about is even if a woman has had no aces, 18% of those women become depressed. Only 10% of men. And I said, now there's two factors. And I said, and I think it's the one factor more than the other one. 10% of the men maybe just they don't report it. Right. So they're less likely to talk about it. Women are a lot more open about talking about it. But I also believe that the reason that is, is because the world is not as safe for women.

Yes.

More women have Alzheimer's, you know, and Parkinson's, stuff like that. Because I believe the circuits are constantly firing.

Yes.

And I'll say to a man, you and I can walk out into the parking lot tonight. You know, we don't look around at what other cars are in the parking lot, who else is hanging around. Women have never been able to do that because it's not as safe. I think all of that stress shows up, and that's why it's even more important for women to start taking care of themselves, because it will show up somewhere. And so that, I think, is something that is because of the world. And my dad was amazing at this because he taught me. I remember I was about 16, and he. He was so respectful to my mom. He never raised his voice, never argued with her, never fought. And one time, I think I was about 16, and I said just something flippant to her, like, I didn't swear. I didn't yell and raise my voice. I said something like, yeah, whatever, right? And he never hit us. But I feel this tap on the back of my head, right? And I didn't even know he was there. And I turned around, he looked at me, and he said, she may be your mother, but she's my wife, and I don't allow anybody to be rude to her. Now stop it.

I love that.

That was like. And that wasn't. I didn't yell, scream, or do anything. But he said, you treat her with respect all the time. Because he did that taught me more about how to treat women. If men could learn that, right. It was Such an important value that I grew up with. Right. The world would be safer for women. Right. And so we have an obligation as men to start thinking that way.

That is a hundred percent correct. That's a beautiful story, by the way. I. I can't even believe how beautiful that is. Yeah. It's these kinds of challenges that, that are both about just doing the right thing. Right. About treating people well and with respect, regardless of how they might be different from you. But also, I mean, from a. From a company or organizational standpoint, it's about how do you make sure everyone can show up and do their best work. Right. And. And it is. It comes down to some basics of just taking care of people and being respectful. Right. That is. And it has to be the majority that is making the change. Right. It can't be the minority that prompts the change, and that doesn't work. It has to be the majority taking that responsibility. So I love that you as a, as a representative man are doing that. It's wonderful.

I learned it very early. And now you hear about all this Me Too movement again. When I was growing up, I thought everybody had. My parents lived in my. Lived in my world. Wasn't until I met my wife that I saw she was not, you know, she had very angry, violent father. That, to me, I thought was an anomaly. I didn't realize it. I was the anomaly.

Right.

But you see it all, all the time. And, and that's what I'm saying is we really have a duty, right. As fathers and as men to teach our children that, especially our sons. Right. To do it the right way, be respectful. Right. And this whole Me Too movement was almost the same thing to me. I'm like, really? There's that much of it going on. Right. You can't believe it. Right. And I knew trauma was coming, but to me, so much of the MeToo movement is about respect for women.

Yeah.

And. And if men didn't grow up with that, you know, of course they're going to continue it. And so it's. It's a shame. And you're just sharing exactly that. You know, even in the military. Right. So these are people. It's all supposed to be about respect.

Yeah. Well, that is the thing that is. You know, and it's interesting because we. There's PTSD from. From combat, of course. Right. I. And I don't know. I'm sure there are studies on this, and I've probably avoided them subconsciously. But. But there's a. And there's a term that's used called moral injury. Right. When you are harmed by the people that are supposed to be protecting you and, and, or have your back. And I think for the case of, you know, a relatively large percentage, all things considered, of women and some men in the military and obviously elsewhere. But the military has, you know, it's particularly engineered to, to take care of each other when you are, when you're putting your life on the line and when you are, when you are at risk from those people that you're supposed to be fighting or with that. I don't know that I'm ever going to process it completely, to be honest. You know, it's, it's, it's deeply damaging. And, and yeah, I can do the big stuff. Right. I can do the hard stuff. I can shoot that helicopter, I can fly it, I can lead the platoon, I can lead the company, whatever. But, but it's the little stuff that, that, that can be, I think over the long term, the most damaging. It.

It is. And interesting. This is something I share as well, which all these school shootings that are happening.

Oh my gosh.

One of the things that we've discovered which I think is really fascinating is obviously the children are going to have post traumatic stress from one of these shootings.

Right.

However, you know where they're saying a lot of the post traumatic stress, if not most of it's coming from, is when they see their parents for the first time.

Now their parent is so upset and so rattled, all their safety. So they're assuming that mom and dad are coming. I'm going to be okay now. And they're totally dysregulated. That was a bigger effect.

Wow.

So what they're showing now is that they need to counsel these parents on how to make their child feel safe when they see them not look like they're totally have lost it. And I was on a podcast one time and somebody said, what's the best advice you can give to a parent? And I said, make your home safe. I had that, yes. So I could get bumped by a teacher or friend or whatever. But as soon as I came home, I came right back into regulation. Felt safe again.

Yes.

That's the best thing you can do for your children.

Right, Right. That's beautifully put. Actually. That's a good reminder. And maybe in the workplace, people. It's funny, I don't know that it's necessarily something that people want to make the direct equation of, but, but it's also creating a safe workplace. Right. I mean, it's creating a Safe environment where we are together. And whether that's your family or your church or your synagogue or your community, it's your organization creating that safety. And people are now using the term psychological safety. Right. And, and at the end of the day, it's, it's about long term thriving, which relates directly to performance and your bottom line. For those who, who are not convinced that they want to be involved in the thriving, it's like, well, look, your bottom line is going to be better. So whatever motivates you, that's it. Creating that safe environment is, is, is a really important thing. So. Yeah, so thank you for, for calling that out.

Yeah. It's culture. Right. So if you develop a culture of fear, which is what my wife lived in, she couldn't perform at her highest level. She was really smart, but she never felt smart. Her father put her down all the time. Was all his control. Right. So he put him down and he really wasn't very smart. Right. So it wasn't like. But he was, according to him, the smartest guy in the room. And I remember one time when we, I was just really dating her at the time. I remember we were sitting at dinner one time and, and he made a comment and I went, no, that's not true. That's wrong. And you could feel the tension instantly in the room. It's like, oh, you don't say that to him. You don't tell him he's wrong. Right. And so now I challenged him.

Right.

And all of a sudden it's like, he's like, well, no, you're not right. And I go, yeah, I am. He's going, well, how much you want to lay a bet on it? And I went, absolutely. I knew he was absolutely wrong. Right. And he said, well, let's go, because we have computers. And he said, let's go check it out in the encyclopedias. And I went, absolutely, let's go do it. My wife was shaking.

Wow.

Because she was so afraid of what he was going to do when I proved he was wrong.

So if you're like, you do this all the time, counseling with all these corporations, if you run your organization with people afraid to tell you when you're.

Wrong, you're in big trouble.

Yeah. The celebrities, that's why celebrities get into trouble because nobody will ever tell them they're wrong.

Yeah.

And so they end up thinking that they're invincible, they can do everything they want, and then all of a sudden they do stupid stuff because nobody ever told them they were wrong.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

This has been fascinating. We could talk for hours, I'm sure, on this.

Thank you for this. I really enjoyed it. It was a much different tact than many conversations that I have the opportunity to have, so I so appreciate that.

Well, I appreciate yours. I'm definitely. So you had the two books, right?

Yes, yes. And the Grit Factor.

Yeah. So I'm definitely. I'm going to read them because I think that sounds fascinating. I wanted to do it beforehand, just didn't get a chance. It's been a crazy week, but I got so much already with the work that you do.

I think that they will. Yeah, they'll. They'll give another perspective in an interesting way for you. So. And both of those are, of course, at my website@shannonpolson.com or the grit institute.com.

Beautiful. Beautiful. And then if people want to reach out to you, how do they get ahold of you?

Yeah, you can contact me directly through my website. I'm also on LinkedIn, Shannon H. Poulson, where I do most of my social work, as well as on Instagram and on Twitter.

What she's doing. And I absolutely had a great time.

Probably having you back again, because I think, like I said, we could talk forever on this kind of stuff.

Do it. Let's do it. I have some new work I'm working on that will be probably interesting as well. So when we get around to that, I'd love, love to reconnect.

Beautiful. Well, thank you, everybody, for listening to another you must be out of your mind podcast. And we'll talk to you the next time.