In this informal Raw Pet Medics podcast episode, hosts Nick Thompson and Brendan converse with veterinary pain specialist Dr. Conor Brady about inflammation, pain mechanisms, and the use of palmitoylethanolamide (PEA) and other natural compounds for canine (and human) pain management. They begin by reviewing the five classical signs of inflammation—redness, heat, swelling, pain, and loss of function—providing a brief historical context. The discussion then shifts to PEA: its pronunciation, endogenous production, and its action via PPAR‑alpha and the endocannabinoid system. They critique the variability of over‑the‑counter PEA products, highlighting a pharmaceutical‑grade French product (Almidol) and a US product from Dr. Judy Morgan, noting the importance of verifying active ingredient content. Evidence is presented from recent studies (e.g., Della Rocca 2023) showing that PEA combined with curcumin or quercetin can reduce the required dose of the NSAID meloxicam in dogs by up to 75 % while maintaining pain control. Practical dosing strategies are debated, distinguishing acute post‑operative pain from chronic neuropathic or osteoarthritic pain, and suggesting a step‑down approach where PEA (with adjuncts) is introduced to wean dogs off NSAIDs. The hosts also survey other complementary agents—boswellia, CBD, DMSO, omega‑3 fatty acids, laser/infrared therapy—and discuss their mechanisms, evidence, and safety considerations. A recurring theme is the need for contextualised care: owners communicating with veterinarians about functional versus mechanical pain, monitoring side‑effects, and using natural products as adjuncts rather than replacements. Anecdotal stories (e.g., a dog named Dudley’s rapid recovery after an anti‑inflammatory shot, collie lameness syndrome) illustrate pain perception and the balance between immobilisation and activity. The episode concludes with calls for community engagement via Patreon, teasers for future topics (e.g., photobiomodulation, DMSO), and promotion of the upcoming African Pet Health Summit.
Chapters
Good evening, we are here again. We three meet again, gentlemen. We are Raw Pet Medics, well, we were last time I looked, and we're here going to be talking about inflammation and pain relief and PEA. And marks out of 10 for anybody who can actually say PEA, what the word actually is. But let's get— we'll do the— do this stuff first. A thousand thanks to all our Patreon people who contribute every month just a tiny bit, sometimes not even a tiny bit, but we really love that. All you need to do if you want to join that, those, that, uh, uh, uh, Lusty Gang, then you just go over to Patreon and follow your nose, follow to, uh, Raw Pet Medics. We're also on all sorts of, um, podcasts, every podcast medium you can possibly think of, we are there. You cannot get away with us, uh, get away from us, And that's us, that's what we do, and we absolutely love it. We're doing this for a freebie because we do like doing it. We get together, we have a little laugh together. I always say we talk about some serious stuff, but we don't take ourselves too seriously. So, gents, how are you?
Good, good. I am very pain-free at the moment, I have to say. You guys must know a lot about pain relief being on the latter quarter of life. So I'm assuming you have I'm assuming you're going to have loads of ideas here and your vets, which I'm sure will help as well. So I am looking forward to learning.
Not half as much as being ancient, mate. That in itself is an education.
I'm just pleased I made it past 50. That's it.
Done.
I'm checking out.
But I do have a few aches and pains, I have to say.
And I wonder, I always wonder how, at what point do I start thinking about Save me, he's not going to start talking about his famous footballing injury, is he?
And his bloody knee operation that we've heard about 300 times.
That thumb annoys me, I remember the day it happened.
What were you doing with this thumb?
I can't stick it up at all.
How are you doing?
It looks like I'm hiding it down.
Can you not do it over the top anymore?
I can't straighten it one straight.
That's your hitchhiking career out the window, mate.
It is, yeah, it is. So on cold winter days it gets me and I always think, what can I do for your thumb that'll help? But really I just know it's structural damage in there that means— anyway, look, we'll get to all that. But anything exciting happen during your week?
It's what you officially call a sprung thumb.
It was dislocated at the time and then a guy, a strange guy in a petrol station said, I'll put that back in for you. I was working in a petrol station at the time and I knew it was really bad, it was throbbing. Let me tug on that. Yeah, he had it. He was like, he had— he was from the St. John's Ambulance, you know, St. John's Ambulance. And he was from St. John's Ambulance, but I think he was—
oh, sorry, he said—
I think, yeah, no, he had it on his t-shirt, but he could have robbed it. I think, I think they just let him ride around in the ambulance because I think he was just not all there. But he grabbed it and, uh, and he did a few things. And after a while I was like, this is agony what you're doing. I don't think this is working. And then after a few days somebody else said, what's the story which you told me. So I had left it and it was out of place and it never went back in. And so yeah, I'm left with a little ache in that and a bit of ache in my ankle as well as a result of my football injury. And so it's the opposite side of the knee. And so I wonder, do people take— people out there that are listening on Facebook and you have a few aches and pains, does anybody actually take this stuff that we're going to talk about? Most of you guys have heard three-quarters of the compounds we're going to mention. Is anybody actually taking that as a day-to-day, or do you just take it when It's bad, you know what I mean? You wait, it doesn't— a bar, a bit of omega-3. I wonder, do any compounds we mentioned tonight— is there actually any humans taking these compounds for pain?
I think a lot of people take chondroitin glucosamine type products.
Oh yeah, they do.
Okay, a lot of people.
I would—
Brady, if you're falling apart as much as you say you are, I would get on those pronto.
Interesting.
If I were you.
Yeah, just take some bone broth at least.
And yeah, I have ramped up my bone broth ingestion because of the amount of meat, or, you know, bird and carcass and then the carcass goes in. And so we have con— everything we did curry tonight, that had 2 massive cubes of, uh, of high-quality stock in there. So like, you know, I am, but I'm just wondering, uh, should I put in something in the background to keep myself—
I'd say a cup of bone broth every day, and that would be—
that's kind of it.
Yeah, yeah. Well, no, not that. I would do that and I would do some, uh, some chondroitin glucosamine supplementation, plenty of vitamin C. All that sort of stuff.
So somebody's saying, uh, did your mother tell you don't accept medical advice from people in petrol stations? Yeah, especially about the next thing I'm going to talk about. Yeah, did the t-shirt have a three-pronged leaf on it? So have you taken any CBD for that?
CBD? No. There's another one. Have you got that ready for tonight? I actually have a little bit on CBD. Pain relief. It's a little bit disappointing for pain relief. Study-wise, but who knows, a lot of people believe in that. Anything else going on during the week before we get into our top 9 favorite compounds here?
I'm just about to finish, I'm just— and it's a self-imposed deadline. My brother's coming on Thursday too, and we're going to record, because he's a photographer, filmmaker, and what have you. We're going to record what makes dogs itch. We're going to do a couple of hours on what makes dogs itch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to do all that. So that's going to be my day on Thursday and that'll be coming out within the next few weeks, guys. Time for spring and Valentine's Day.
Nice to go there for Valentine's.
Trying to steal my march because he knows that's what I'm talking about.
When?
Orlando.
Oh no, this is just going to go online. It's going to be sold through my website.
I'll keep my powder dry then. I'll watch you.
Yeah, it's truly tragic when you have something coming up for a talk and somebody starts talking about it and it's like, no, no, I forgot about that. Yeah, that's good.
Unless I know you're talking about it, Conor, in which case I know I'll correct everything when I come around.
Oh, low blow. Such a low blow.
We're coming back to this whole sensitivity factoid that I tell you. I should have— from now on, I'm just going to say, yeah, I know, Bren. I'm not going to actually say that because you just use it against me when you surprise me with interesting facts.
Guys, Caroline Chipsy, hello Caroline, she says she can't find us on Facebook. Is everything—
it's definitely there, on Facebook.
Oh, they are, okay, all right, so Caroline, have another go.
Did you like the image I created for today's talk? I forgot to post this last night.
With the couple of people wiped out because you were slightly jealous?
Probably that, you look a little bit mean. There's a picture of the three of us with you two scratched out.
You know the only person that actually spotted it? Was my practice manager said, what's all this about? I said, oh yeah, that's Conor. He's got an inferiority complex.
Yeah, I was thinking like pain relief for people's eyes, you know, get rid of us, get rid of the competition. There's two out there. Anyway, who wants to start us off? Like somebody mentioned PEA.
No, I'm just, I'm going to go even further back than that because I just think we need to go back to the Greeks. In fact. Okay, okay. So what are the, uh, what are the 5 markers of inflammation? Everybody, you know, throws around this idea of inflammation, inflammation this, inflammation that, you know. But, but what— even the Greeks, they had inflammation pretty, uh, pretty taped, you know. They, they were, you know, uh, they were pretty familiar with it because when you had inflammation, you had it potentially for quite a long time because there was no anti— uh, non-steroidal anti-inflammatories, there was no steroids. You just had to kind of get on with it. So they brought it down to 5 key elements. The first is redness.
Oh, come on, now you should be throwing them around.
Let us do it. Yeah, what do you— me and Brad.
Okay, okay, so, uh, yeah, go on then.
I'll say a red-hot rash.
Red, redness. Yes, rhubarb is what they would have said.
Okay, Brad, um, so swelling.
Okay, swelling. Tumor. Very good.
Oh, tumor, look there, isn't that interesting?
Tumor. Yeah, I said it was Greek, it might be Latin, so don't hold me to asking that. I know more about inflammation than I do about ancient languages. Heat, heat, calor. Calor, heat.
It would be heat, very good.
Was it calor? I'm thinking calor, not halo.
Because we have calor gas.
Yeah, what else have we got, boys? Itch, not necessarily, no.
Pain?
Pain, dolor.
Dolor is pain.
Sounds like we're getting into the underworld now.
Yes, yes, but there is a final factor.
We at college, I remember being taught this and thinking, oh, that's neat, 4, it's like the Beatles, you know. But actually, it will often be quoted as having 5 elements to inflammation. There is a final element. Can anybody think of that? Or anybody who's watching, can you think of the 5th element? Like, it's like the 5th Beatle.
I'm looking, guys, if you want to comment.
It was the 5th Beatle. Who was the 5th Rolling Stone as well, come to that?
Fifth Rolling Stone was Brian Johnson.
Nice, very good. And the fifth Beatle, Brian, Brian, Pete Best, wasn't it? Oh no, no, he was the drummer. Uh, uh, uh, uh, was it the drummer before?
There we go. So Peter Williams now got 4 new dog names.
Okay, um, yeah, good names actually. Yeah, uh, didn't they call— who was the, the, the, the manager, the producer?
Sorry, Brian Jones is your man from, from, from Rolling Stones. Yeah, because I'm going to a band tomorrow and I call them Brian Jonestown Massacre.
Oh, very good.
And they're a brilliant band and they're called Brian Jones. So funny we're talking about— what's the 15th? Tell us.
So the Beatles, the— who was their, their producer? The brilliant Epstein, right? I think he was called the Fifth, right? Yeah, I do believe. Okay, okay. The first— the, the Fifth Element is called loss of function, which in Latin or Greek— I think Latin Actually, functio lassi.
Yeah, I was really wondering what you're going to say then.
Easy, easy, easy.
Function is a good— yeah, if you had inflammation in the joints, you would have loss of function, but that's the only—
well, that's the whole idea behind it. All of those are there to protect the damaged area, essentially. Well, the redness, not so much, and the heat, I guess, not so much, but the swelling, yes, the pain, consequences.
No, come on, the redness and the heat, they are consequences of blood blood vessels, you know, dilating to get all of these cells into that area.
Yeah, so you're trying to heal and at the same time immobilize that area.
And the swelling— and the swelling, to state the obvious, but it was surprising to me— is just the arrival of all that material, of all the blood and extra debris that fills up the area because it's filling up with, you know, your hotel is filling up. Is that not what the swelling is? Is that not what inflammation is? The swelling which expands linings, which is what causes the pain?
There is, there is a lot of activity that goes there, but also the body will say, right, I'm going to swell the hell out of this to stop it moving.
Yeah, in and of itself, the inflammation rushes to the area, to the joint, it swells with the arrival of all the stuff, and then that is the swelling that impedes and causes pain in the joint.
I think I think there's edema over and above just the arrival of all the white blood cells and the interleukins.
Definitely, definitely is. Yeah, you've got all of the, what we call, complement series, which basically are the inflammatory mediators that as soon as they detect damage, these complements come out and they actually start creating the edema that Nick's talking about, the fluid into the tissues. That actually also allows all of the blood vessels as they dilate and bring in those cells. It allows those cells to seep from the blood vessels out into the tissues to start doing their thing, whether that's fighting infection, whether that's, you know, dealing with the damaged tissues and effectively gobbling up those damaged cells, you know, all of that side of things. So yeah, it's very complex when you get into the detail, but It's great that you've simplified it to some, you know, things to look out for for inflammation.
Yeah, 5.
And people have learned about the Beatles and all good dog names, but I'm really disappointed with the flaccid loss of use or whatever you were coming up with. Beg your pardon?
We're talking about inflammation here, not reproduction. That's a whole other thing.
You need to check the rest of your notes, Gary. These aren't my notes, this is my daughter's notes.
Okay, moving swiftly on. Right, so PEA, who knows something about PEA?
I know I can't pronounce it. Who wants to try and pronounce it? And then I'm going to let the computer make an absolute hames of us. I'll try it. Let's start with the computer. This is what the computer thinks you should say. Okay, let's turn up my volume.
Pump up the volume.
Shut up, Bren. Come on, come on.
The sound of silence.
You not hear that? No, stop talking because it was saying it really loud. How does it not pick it up? Oh, earphones. Shit. Sorry. This is a disaster.
Oh dear.
Bring the curtain down, please.
Never work with animals or children. In Brady, we have a bit of both.
We'll hide him behind the curtain while he plugs himself in. He's sweating now.
Should we carry on, Brent? Should we carry on with the science while he's struggling with his audio?
You pronounce it, guys. Is it trying to say palmitoyl ethanolamine?
Amide. Palmitoyl ethanol amide.
So the P is for palmitol, the E is for ethanol, and the A is for amide. And then you just have to string it together.
String them together.
Palmitol ethanol amide. That's the one.
Yeah. Easy for you to say.
Palmitoyl ethanol amide.
Say again. Palmitoyl ethanol amide. Oh, it's not far off what we were saying, except we got quite—
I thought that was brutal.
It's really hard when you're in the middle of a consult and you're trying to spit that one out.
Yeah, PEA, it does end.
I want to know why you're giving my dog legumes.
Yes, indeed.
Yes, yes.
What is that? What is— am I correct in thinking PEA is endogenous? We produce it ourselves, do we not?
We do, we do.
So who wants to tell us about it?
PEA is normally a plant extract, however, isn't it?
Yeah, but it's produced in the body and it's found in modulating the immune response, inflammation, and pain within the body. It's found in various tissues and the brain. I'm reliably informed. It's a fatty acid amide.
Did you know that actually there is a lot of variance with the products that you can buy? And this is true. I mean, it's the Wild West of Amazon, isn't it, really?
Yeah, for sure.
But actually, there are lots of people that are out there saying, I've tried it, it's useless, it doesn't work, it's got all sorts of pros and cons write-ups on the internet. And actually, a lot of that is down to, has it been checked that it's got the active ingredient in? Because a lot of these things have effectively powder fillers with them, because otherwise it would be super concentrated and you wouldn't really need very much. So it's really interesting because over here in the UK, The only one that's actually had the work done in the veterinary space that I could find is actually this one.
Let's have a look. Let's have a look.
It's actually a French product, but it's been brought in.
Almidol. And is it any good? Have you tried it?
So I've tried this one, and this is actually— so it is pharmaceutically graded. So they do effectively check what's in the capsule and every capsule. It's not the cheapest, definitely not the cheapest, but it does have some good effects. And I've used it for some of the spinal cases. I've used a really nice spinal case. And hi, if you're watching, I'm not going to say who you are, but that actually initially we thought had skin disease. But actually it's got a neuritis, effectively a feeling of that sort of pinpricking sensation that you get with pins and needles. And we've been using a number of treatments to effectively reduce the inflammation in the spine outflows that was leading to this. And that's actually been the game changer for this particular—
For people in the US, Dr. Judy Morgan has a PEA product, and she stands over that, a very, very popular product. And I think, I'm not sure how easy it is to ship PEA around the world, but I do think I can get her PEA here in Ireland. But I definitely know it's available in Ireland, in US, Canada, that'll be easy peasy for them. So that's a hell of a product. And so she stands over that. There's actually decent science behind that PEA as well. It's no surprise once it's found naturally in the body, the brain. Like if you get any sort of inflammation and neuropathic pain, so any damage to the spine, floods the spine, brain. Great for atopic dermatitis, that was the study in dogs. So how does it work? Like how is it helping with the dermatitis? Is it helping with the itch and cooling things off? Is it helping with the pain? What, how does this compound work? Does anyone have any idea?
I've got a bit, I've got, it works through the endocannabinoid cannabinoid. This is the CBD system. Yeah, through what they call the PPAR-alpha receptors, which then that's— and that gives an anti-inflammatory and the pain-relieving effect as well. But yeah, you're absolutely right, we've got neuropathic pain, chronic pain, and pain associated with inflammation. So, you know, whenever you've got inflammation, PEA is a good thing to think about because what the conventional guys will think about when there's neuropathic pain is gabapentin, Yeah, and so PEA might be a nice step back away because a lot of dogs can't take gabapentin because they get kind of hallucinatory with gabapentin. So PEA might be a good, a nice workaround for that. So I definitely think it's worth looking at.
Central wind-up of pain, because that's something that we talk about when you do acupuncture, it's that stuff that you talk about, as you say, with CBD usage, gabapentin. We've talked about gabapentin before, and there's some controversy as to whether it is effective in that wind-up of pain pathway. So what's your current thinking? Where are you at, guys?
This is—
with what? With gabapentin or PEA?
Well, basically with any of the CBDs that people are using out there, PEA.
So just this PEA, there's a study here in '23 by Della Rocca et al. in '23, and they used PEA and they combined it with curcumin, which when you look at the evidence for curcumin and pain or inflammatory relief, it's, it's savage. It's so good. So I was going to talk about a little bit of curcumin because there's just hundreds.
So I found a study that actually shows the effectiveness of PEA and quercetin actually exceeds. So it's rather than equating to just adding the effects of PEA and quercetin separately together, yeah, it actually potentiates each other, and actually to the point where they can be more effective than using a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory.
That's right. In this study, PEA was combined with curcumin, and the study documented the ability to reduce the dose of meloxicam in 90% of dogs. Now it says reduce the dose, it doesn't say remove meloxicam, and there are other natural pain reliefs that do replace some of the drugs that we're going to mention. So meloxicam, another one with You know, I'm sure it works, but it's also one you might want to be taking for the rest of your life. So PEA definitely can help. And so I would much rather reduce my dose of meloxicam in favor of a compound that I produce myself. That seems like a far— like reducing the— people are always worried. A lot of the questions that come up on the page there is like, you know, I need some pain relief, you know, we've just had a hysterectomy and what can I give her? But a lot of these things can really reduce your need of the drug. But that's tricky. How does it— How does a conventional vet, how can you even broach that subject with your conventional vet? Boswellia, for example, you want to see this study here in a second, that Boswellia on its own of how effective it is across the board for all these different markers. And how could we as a non-vet go to our conventional vet and say, hey, this PEA protein reduces how much meloxicam I need, so please adjust the dose accordingly? How could a conventional vet marry those two worlds and help you?
Do you want to go for that, Brendan?
I've got a thought.
Yeah, so look, lots of people are doing evidence-based stuff now. I mean, it's really interesting what has evidence base and what little has, you know, very little evidence base out there, especially in the medicine world, you know, both for humans and for vets. We find that the levels of dogma, the levels of of treatments that are based on experience that somebody suddenly held up this, oh, you must do science-based stuff. And they're all talking about that. And yet actually, majority of treatments that are being used at this point in time don't have that base. And I would actually say that if you've got the studies— yeah, Conor, I hope you put those studies up on Facebook for people. That's the state of— look, 'But there's a risk of side effects with this.' There's actually a risk of side effects with many herbal drugs too. You've got to remember that.
Probably less though, to be fair.
If they're in true herbal form. Okay, but again, we're talking extracts in some of these ones. So let's, you know, be mindful that there could be side effects for your dog. Watchful for those, communicate about those. That's really important, just as it is for the drugs. And just say, look, if your dog is not coping with a drug that they're on and you've got an alternative that you'd prefer, we're talking always about contextualised care these days. And contextualised care means effectively listening to you as the pet owner and your relationship with your pet and actually how you want to approach treatment for your pet. And the vet has to take on board that when they come out with a treatment plan. And if that is that you want to avoid a drug because your experience is such that you've experienced side effects, maybe with a previous pet, maybe with yourself, maybe with your pet that's right in front of them and they've just forgotten that that's had a reaction, or it's had a reaction at another vet's, that actually you say, I'd really prefer to use this first, please. Okay, so you may have done a pain relief protocol where you've opted to look at how best you can relieve pain, and then you start to wean in the alternate and come in with something that you feel has less side effects.
Wean in. Oh, did you say that? I'm just posting the study there. Sorry, did you, did you say begin on the natural pain relief because it's our preferred choice and then bring in the blocks?
So some people, you know, if the vet wants to know, is this a functional problem or is this a mechanical problem? So is it functional in the sense of pain is causing the lameness, let's say, and actually they just want to check. Well, fine, give them pain relief for a very short period of time. If the lameness goes away and then comes back as the pain relief goes, well, when you've got a standard at which you'd expect the lameness to be improved by pain relief, you can then bring in a natural pain relief which should perform as well as the, the drug that was given is an option. But you have a right to communicate communicate to the vet your desire to avoid a medication. And I think, you know, as long as they can see and they come back and you're monitoring, have you got adequate pain relief, then there should be no reason why they would obstruct you using something, especially if you've got evidence to say, I want to use this. Look, it's been shown to be as effective as meloxicam.
Based on the owner's assessment, 90% of dogs— there's about 60 dogs in the study— 90% of dogs who responded to meloxicam at the full dose regimen could reduce meloxicam up to 25% of the original dose. So in other words, they could drop it by 75%. They dropped it to 25% of the original dose. I think that's what it's saying, which is a good substantial decrease. And they are seeing— and three-quarters of those dogs were described as being pain-free 10 weeks after meloxicam withdrawal. So it definitely stands. So I kind of like that approach actually, because you're not going against what they're saying, you're just saying I'd like to use as little of it as possible and save the heavy hitters, as I had with Meg, terrible hip dysplasia. And I didn't really reach for the heavy-hitting drugs until she was 13, but she was on them at 7. And until I said, when I came back from Australia, I said, Mom, get her off that food and get her onto this. And the dog was back with some basic things that I knew at the time. So yeah, that's a good way to do it. What about you, Nick?
Yeah, I was just thinking, if you've got an acute pain problem, but like you've just been spayed, okay, then you're sore for what, 3, 5, 7 days or so, you know, acutely sore, you're going to be, you know, a little bit tweaky for, you know, several weeks after that, but you're going to be acutely, oh, I'm sore in my belly. It's going to be very difficult to say, well, look, the PEA is working as well as the meloxicam. You're going to be— because you've got such a short time time window. However, if you've got long-term pain because you've got pain, you know, neck pain or back pain or pain anywhere, and it's a long-term thing, then you can start playing with, okay, so you're on this dose of meloxicam, and so we'll introduce a full dose of PEA plus curcumin, for example, or PEA plus quercetin, for example, and then you'll be able to see just how far down you can go with the meloxicam while maintaining the functionality of the patient. Yeah, i.e., just a 1 out of 10 lameness or a 1 out of 10 level of discomfort or 1 out of 10 getting out of bed or getting in the back of the car, whatever it might be. But that would be a long-term thing because then you've got the ability to weigh one against the other.
That would be my Gemma Hudson of Dynamic Dog is great for pain, and she always says there's different types of pain, not to forget that, that there's, you know, there's joint pain and muscle pain and neuropathic pain. And I always remember that now, that not all pain relief covers all bases, you know, so some works for some and some work for others.
And also different individuals will respond differently to the same— to meloxicam, for example, say, would work great for some people and not for others and will give others really bad vomiting and diarrhea. You know, I see that quite a lot.
Yeah. It's interesting what you said at the start there about the pain as well. That pain is there to, you know, protect you. Yeah, to protect you. And Mother Nature doesn't do it for fun. You know, it's kind of— I can only imagine that by the time the wolves are eating the elk and they're just lying down, they've given up. I can only imagine they feel very little pain when that's happening. That's what I would hope. I would hope so. I bet the adrenaline is just at its maximum and you just don't feel anything. But, um, so the endorphins, the natural endorphins, you can get your arm blown off and you don't even know. Um, why was I saying that? Oh yes, because when Dudley hurt his back initially and he ruptured a disc, the vet at the time was trying to help him. She said there's nothing structurally wrong with this dog, and he was lying in my arms like he'd been shot. And this is 3 o'clock in the morning, and the vet goes, look, I'll give him a shot of anti-inflammatories, and the dog just leapt up off the table like nothing was wrong. The jab did the did the job and we were all celebrating going, my God, that's an incredible bit of juice you gave him there, give me some of that.
How quickly was that? Was that like within 1 minute?
I mean, yeah, within a minute the dog was up and walking around.
That wasn't the jab.
What did you do, give it IV?
But I mean, it was, you know, Dudley, like he's just an absolute live wire and this dog, once he hit the ground, he yelped. This is at 2 o'clock in the morning in the middle of a party. This is when he was 1 and a half years old and he yelped like he'd been shot and he's lying on the side looking at me and I said, what's wrong with this? I picked him up, bring him in the car all the way out to UCD, an hour's drive. UCD, wait for the vet, the dog is completely lame, completely got with this ruptured disc, two ruptured discs. And so, and then he got this shot and within a minute he was trying to jump off the table and he was happy out, big delighted eyes. So whatever, whatever, whatever was in that shot, it was amazing. And it's probably what's keeping the Irish and English rugby teams together, I would say. It was phenomenal difference. Anyway, it masked the pain.
Mother is watching, please don't say things like that.
Yeah, the pain was removed from the dog and as a result he went out playing and and a week later he got T-boned on the beach by a black Labrador, and that was the end of him. He hit the deck then, and then he had a major back surgery because the kink and the pain that would have been there to get him off his feet and say, you've made your problems, would have been detected. We might have been able to do more. But then when he got the T-bone a week later, that's my reckoning with why pain would have helped. And same with a bad ankle or a bad knee. The pain is there to say, get off that knee, you know, silly. And so now I've got a new understanding for what pain is trying to do for me. It's not just trying to annoy me, you know, there's something wrong and you need to fix it.
So there is a scale though, you know, if you say there's a 1 to 10 or 0 to 10 scale and 0 is walking down the beach, everything's hunky-dory, and 10 is having your leg amputated without anesthetic. Yeah. So I would say anything up to, you know, a 0, 1, 2, maybe a 3 will be in the kind of okay zone, decreasingly less okay, but within an okay zone, I can cope zone. But when you get into the 4s and above, then you, you really have to bring them down into the 1, 2, 3 zone for me, because if they're in the 1, 2, 3 zone, there is a chance that they look after themselves and not go chasing squirrels. Yeah, because that's the only thing sometimes that will stop a dog going and ruining themselves by chasing a squirrel. You know, you get a collie, young collie, they've got a lameness, and you give them a painkiller— bam, they're gone, they're absolutely gone. And so, so for me, it's— this is the collie lameness syndrome, in that with, with, with any other other dogs who are less, you know, reactive and what have you, that lameness would last 2 weeks. You get— you'd rest them and everything else. But with a collie, it lasts, you know, could last 3 months because they keep on reactivating the inflammation.
It's like the quarterback's got a sore shoulder. Well, let's fill them up with anti-inflammatories and get them out there, you know. It's like we can't not have him on the pitch, and we don't care if he can't use his arm for the last half of his life. Yeah, make sure he can throw that ball for the next few weeks.
And I liken this to, you know, having effectively rotator cuff can be so painful. You rupture effectively the tendon within your shoulder. You can't even sleep on it, it's that painful. You can't lift your arm to do any, you know, work. You can't even really manipulate instruments and write with a pen and stuff like that. Can be excruciating. And I've seen a couple of Labradors in the last couple of months where literally, you palpate them and you can feel that they have torn this tendon, okay, in the shoulder. And you know that you're giving them pain relief for quality of life. And a number of people have been talking about this. It's really important to us that we keep up their quality of life. But we are also trying desperately to say, in order to heal, they need to rest. And for us, we'd put it in a sling, we'd be saying, you don't lie on it, you know, you might end up having to sleep in a chair rather than sleep on your shoulder, you know, you can't be maneuvering that, you can't be lifting anything, and but here's your pain relief because you'll cope with that. And actually, for these dogs, you know, they just need to see a squirrel, they need to, you know, see a tennis ball down the bottom of the garden, they will totally forget what's going on. You cannot rest them without, you know, strictly putting them on a lead and taking them step by step out and stopping them from doing too much. So I totally get what you're saying, Nick. Sometimes you have to leave them, you know, just a little bit of a remembrance that they're not 100%.
So that, yeah, for their own good, for their own good. And the more nutty they are, or the more reactive they are, the more you, I think you have to do that. But it's a very fine line. You've got to look after them, but sometimes you've got to wake them up to the injury without, you know, putting them through it. They've got to be aware of it so that they can defend themselves. Yeah, it's a fine line to walk, that one.
Yeah, because I wouldn't give that dog, I wouldn't give my dog this shot of anti-inflammatory again, this miracle juice that he got. I would— he got a quarter of that, you know, and he was a little aware that he needed to slow down a little bit. But that's an interesting debate There it is. Guys, just moving on from PEA, there's so many different options we could be talking about here. I just want to mention this one here, Boswellia, which isn't new to all of us. Boswellia extract, you'll see it in a lot of joint supplements. It's there for pain relief, for anti-inflammatory effects, Boswellia serrata. And so it's common enough and it's a popular one to use for pain relief. But there's been a few studies in dogs, 2004, great study, 29 dogs with chronic joint and spinal disease and the resin extract of Boswellia serrata at the dose of 400 milligrams per 10 kg of body weight once daily for 6 weeks. And the results were fabulous across, across many measures. They've got a lot of them from lameness, pain, stiff gait and all sorts of stuff like that. But this is a point I wanted to make about it. The active components in Boswellia are a group of acids called boswellic acids, and there's lots of different words that I'm sure Brendan and Nick know, but in there I'm just going to call them boswellic acids. And they exert their effects by targeting specific inflammatory pathways on a multimodal basis. What I'm so impressed with about this is it affects— it takes on inflammation and pain in 6 different ways. If this was a drug, you'd say this is a miracle drug. One of the most well-documented mechanisms is the inhibition of the enzyme 5-lipoxygenase. Who cares? It's involved in inflammatory mediators. It's an inflammation thing, and it's fabulous. It's fabulously useful in osteoarthritis and asthma. That's one thing that does. The other thing it does is reduces the amount of pro-inflammatory cytokines that are produced, which is like TNF, tumor necrosis something factor, yeah, and then your interleukins and stuff. So that— it's great for that. So it's anti-inflammatory. It also is thought to protect cartilage by inhibiting the enzyme matrix metalloproteinase, or MMPs, that degrade cartilage during osteoarthritis. So that's the third thing. It's an antioxidant, helps reduce oxidative stress in inflamed joints. That's That's the fourth thing. There's evidence that Boswellia improves blood flow to the affected area, which helps out rehab of the joint. That's the fifth thing. And by reducing inflammation, it reduces pain. Six, across the board, Boswellia extract does all— if a drug did two of those things for your knee, you would have every single person on it. Across the board, Boswellia extract alone did that. Seemed well tolerated on the dog, no digestive upset. I wouldn't just go lobbing it.
It's very good for IBD. It has good anti-inflammatory effects in the gut as well. So if you take it for your knee, it might fix your gut as well, which is pretty funky. Yeah, and you know what, there's actually 7. I don't think you've mentioned 6 physiological, um, functions. There's one more, there's one more function that you could, um— Boswellia is very good for giving holy babies who are born in stables under stars.
They love it, they love it. And myrrh, whatever the hell myrrh is.
And myrrh, you give it gold and Murr is a very good, a very respectable relation.
Yeah, murr. That's murr.
Because, guys, Boswellia is frankincense.
Frankincense, yeah.
So how do you say mirror?
Mirror. Of course, don't forget mirror. Mirror. Mirror.
I saw myself in the mirror. That's Northern Ireland, isn't it?
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
So that's Boswellia. That's kicking the pants off things. And then there's a few other things. Listen to if you're talking about joint pain and there is products out there that combine lots of bits and pieces, like there's a joint product there called YouMove, which is very popular. And when you look at studies of glucosamine and chondroitin use in dogs, it's always important to remember if you've got joint pain in dogs, that those studies are done on dry-fed dogs that don't get any glucosamine and chondroitin. So those studies wouldn't be as impressive, I believe, if it was a raw-fed dog getting at least 10% bone in its diet. If he's getting the bones to chew on, he is getting furious amounts of glucosamine and chondroitin. So I think there's only so much of that stuff you need. I always think about it like you're piling bricks up outside a well-built house. It's like it's done, it doesn't need any more bricks, you know, whereas a knackered down old house like a dry-fed dog which is eating poor quality calcium and no joint building material, well then yeah, you give them anything and they'll benefit. So the joint supplements are fab, but really when you break down, you move— and I'm a supporter, I think it's great if you're a dry-fed dog, I think it's very important but if you look into the really groovy ingredients like collagen type 2, yeah, feed a raw meaty bone. Glucosamine chondroitin, yeah, feed a raw meaty bone. Hyaluronic acid, feed a raw meaty bone. But there is some other cool bits and pieces like those green-lipped mussel extract in it and green tea and stuff. It's like, yeah, that's really going to help. So I feel like the joint supplements need to be tweaked a bit for raw-fed dogs because we're already feeding a lot of the compounds already over the pavement.
And there is a great compound actually from Nutrivet who also do the VetPro range. Oh yeah, is their multimodal, which is the purple box, which actually has Boswellia, and it has a couple of other supports with, um, I think it's pine bark extract. Pine bark extract. Oh yeah, and Cardus marianus, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, silymarin extract.
Rita Hogan loves that pine bark extract, doesn't she? There's a pine needle or pine bark— what one she always talking about?
It wasn't that, an embryo Phytoembryonics or something.
Okay, yeah, I bet you she has a few tricks up her sleeve for pain relief. Yeah, one other, and I just, because Nick has bet me a quid, uh, Nick, I bet Nick, before we were looking, we, we all go off and do our own thing and we naturally fall into, uh, the things that we like to do. And as I was coming across natural pain relief items, there's a number of others we're gonna, I'm gonna have to get them in the, in the show after this. But, um, I bet you Nick has another one ready, and Nick said Nick does have another one ready, and I do You do have another one ready, and can I just tell everybody what it is? And Nick hasn't told me yet.
Okay, I'll tell you what, I'm going to write it down on— I'm going to write down what I've got.
Yeah, and you write it down as well, Conor.
I'll just—
and then we're gonna— no, no, you write it down and Nick writes it down, and we'll go— well, we'll go one— no, no, don't show him yet. No, we'll do that. We'll count to 3, and on 3, on 3, you've got to turn it around.
Hang on, hang on a second, sir.
Go on, write it, write it.
It's an absolutely enormous word.
Nick immediately knows he's won a quid.
Yeah, well, no, I could— I've got the, uh, okay, he's got the short version. It's short. Are you ready? I will give you a quid. In fact, I'll buy you a pint.
You ready?
Okay, here we go.
Photo biomodulation. What? DMSO?
Yeah, well, yeah, you owe me a pint therefore.
Is that not the— is it not infrared?
No, it's not.
But it didn't do infrared, Nick. Oh my God, after all your talking and your gooey glass wearing and you know nothing to do infrared for pain.
Well, I've done it a bit. Oh yeah, so I don't want to, I don't want to overdo it.
What is those 4 letters? What is that?
DMSO. It's dimethyl sulfoxide. Which is what I'm going to just discuss with you in Patreon, you know, in our little on the side. We have a bit of DMSO on the side. So very interesting. You'll be familiar with DMSO.
But I just wanted to say, do you know what? There is one thing that I would say we've missed out on, and that's talking about—
well, there's many things—
the anti-inflammatory effects of eggs, omega-3s, 3s. Okay. And actually, you know, if there's one thing in just about all the joint supplements that they need to get right, it's the omega-3s. Getting those up because they are great, whether that be for heart health and whether it be for kidney health, whether it be for gut health, whether it be for joint health, anything, skin inflammation, all of those things. So If there's one thing that you need to try and look out is how to fortify within your dog's or cat's diet omega-3.
Get the 3 up and the 6 down.
Yeah, stop the seed oils wherever you can. If there's seed oils being extracted and put in, try and get those out. Try and get those out of the diet. I've seen a number of diets which are putting omegas into their foods and it's seed oil that they're putting in.
It is the big three, the big three, Hill's and Purina and Royal Canin. And all I know for a fact Hill's do because I've seen it on the website.
I haven't checked the other two, but I imagine all the vegan pet food, omnipeffered, the fat and grease is sunflower oil. Square to God, manufactured by good old Mike Davies. Well, did you see that?
They got, they got Dragon's Den. They did one of your things.
I did.
I'm going to do a video saying saying, I'm, I'm not going to ruin 10 reasons I hate Omni. So, uh, I'm just, I'm just going to say 10. Yeah, so I'm just going to do that. It's just like, it's obvious. And, and Stephen Bartlett is, is got in with them as well. Deborah Meaden, that's like, whatever. Deborah's a vegan, so she's gonna get involved with that stuff. She believes in that.
But I feel like when Bartlett is a promoter of the biggest podcast, and we need to talk about it, about it, I totally get where you're at with a 6 to 1 ratio omega-6 to 3, but you will find doing the work that you do on even raw foods, they can be as high as 20, if not 30 to 1, still pass. Okay, that's omega-6 to 3. So just be aware, guys, you know, not all raw is equal. Not all, you know, factors— because it's got to fortify that omega-3.
It's reared on grain. So if you're heavy on chicken, duck, and turkey and it's reared on corn, then you are going to have high omega-6 chicken, and so your 3:6 ratio will be awful. So if you're eating a lot of poultry, get your omega-3 up. You definitely have to supplement. But if you're eating grass-fed lamb and beef, which very few of us are just to feed that— if it's just outdoor— little fish, or fish, little fish— you won't have an omega-3 problem because you'll just have oodles of it. So, um, yeah, it's like the studies of omega-3, the benefits of comparing it to Irish, UK people taking for arthritis and we benefit massively. And you compare it to Mediterraneans and they don't benefit as much because they have way more omega-3 in their diet. So it's this omega-3 thing is, well, you're about to say omega-6 because of all the olive oil.
Yeah, because they have less omega-6 because remember, it's a ratio. And so you could have a really good ratio, but you've got oodles of 6, but you've got oodles of 3 to balance it up.
But actually, if you can cut back on your 6, you can go less crazy on your 3. Yeah. And there's just absolutely dozens and dozens of studies of omega-3 usage in pets for decreasing steroid need and everything else. So yeah, that's the number one thing to get in there. We've done a number of shows on omega-3 and what good quality looks like and what bad quality looks like. There's a number of things, as I said to Nick, the Nick's beloved infrared. There is cool studies of, you know, those red laser pens you see physio— canine physiotherapists using. Oh, come on, Bren, come on. I've got a study we'll have to talk about.
Well, let's, let's talk about the different lasers, different frequencies, different modulation.
Why don't we do a show on Near infrared.
Yes. Have we not done that?
And laser.
Near infrared and laser.
In fact, actually, there's a great rehab vet surgeon that we should be inviting on. Does acupuncture, all of the hydrotherapy, laser. She's got a great insight into different lasers and laser therapy. So Siobhan, do you remember Siobhan?
Siobhan Menzies. Yes, Northern Ireland.
Oh, Menzies in Northern Ireland. In Scotland, you'd say Mingus for that.
Is that right? There's a Z in there, though, isn't there? Are you joking?
Conor's not sure now.
Mingus, Mingus, that's how you pronounce it. M-E-N-Z-I-E-S in Scotland.
Yeah, I don't know. Okay, so I'll save my— that means I can skip the photobiomodulation therapy. You want to see some of the results in elbow arthritis post-operative recovery from tibial plateau leveling osteotomy. Why do you have such complicated words? Just call it something that everyone can understand. Oh, is that what it is? We used to get that done with guide dogs all the time. TPLR, that's what it stands for. 4 or 5 Savage studies, Liverpool University putting them out. Okay, let's move to our bit on the side and do a few bits more.
I'll teach you a bit about DMSO.
Turmeric and CBD haven't even got a mention, really.
Well, I think we could do 3 shows on this.
Yeah, we really could.
Great. I think I'm going to set Conor through the comments from tonight and he can start answering all of those 15,000 questions and comments. Thank you for all of those guys who've put links on, who've commented, who've put personal experience on. You know, thank you so much for all of your comments. It's greatly appreciated to see community out there. That's what we really love to see. For everyone who wants to come and join us, you know, as a paid member, you will see the content that we put out on the Patreon. So patreon.com/RAWPETMEDICS. Please come and see us over on a bit on the side. That'd be great to see you over there.
And guys, please remind Conor that he owes me a pint.
Oh, I do. And don't forget the African Pet Health Summit, guys, as well. Oh yeah, is coming up on the 26th of March, so it's in Johannesburg and Cape Town a week later. So yeah, so I hope to see you all there. We have 3 or 4 talks each to do, as well as Professor Anna Heim-Borgmann, so it's going to be jam-packed with everything that we have, really. So we're going to throw all the guns at it. So hope to see you all there. So if you need directions of what to do, where to go, let us know, and we have just the person to contact over in South Africa. They'll sort you out.
Yeah, brilliant.
Yeah, it's good. So, so if you're, if you're in South Africa or anywhere near South Africa, then absolutely do come along and see us. But if you're not, then it's a remarkably easy place to get to, and the rand is— the, the, the, the strength of the rand is so poor that it makes it a very cheap holiday while you're there. So it could be a good excuse to have a cheapish holiday.
Can't wait to see the place. Cool, sounds good.
Take care, everyone.
Bye. Thank you.
