QnA JULY '24

That is so funny. We've started already while Brady goes and gets some batteries for his Zoom.

Are we live?

Yes, we are.

So, guys, greetings everybody in podcast land. But I'm just— we use these things. Pete, the podcast guy, has told us to use these super duper recorders because sometimes the quality by going through the laptop is not very good. And so We've all got those. And about 30 seconds ago, the good Dr. Conor Brady said, oh no, or words to that effect.

I haven't got any batteries.

Dear me, I will just go and get some. Honestly, that's exactly what he said.

Do you guys have— do you guys use rechargeable batteries by any chance? Does anybody use them? You do, Nick, do you?

I do. Some of us were intelligent enough that when we purchased our product, we actually got one that actually would connect to something called— of course, power.

Mains, doesn't he?

Thus saving the planet from endless lithium depletion.

I know, true, true, that is true.

So annoying. My mic, oh bloody hell. I was totally prepared for tonight.

Me picking you up like that is probably really disturbed because he's now He's all of a fluster, right?

So I'm just going to take advantage of that just to say, we were going to do Q&A tonight, guys, but this paper, this paper, you see, BVA policy position on diet choices for cats and dogs, of which I have modified slightly, and of which we've posted it to Facebook. We've posted it to Facebook, and Conor just now posted it to Patreon. Guys, thank you everybody for Patreon. If you want to support us on Patreon, just go to Patreon, tap in Raw Pet Medics, and give us a, a monthly, even if it's tiny. We would be very, very grateful.

Helps really keep the lights on.

Guys, thank you for all our podcast supporters. There are loads of them, and they're all over the world, and we absolutely love you and thank you. You can get the podcast on any— anything you fancy. Yeah, anything. Apple, Spotify.

I was going to say, not quite anything. Transistor radio.

Transistor radios don't work quite so well. They are very cool. They are very cool. And just the other thing, just to say, I've got a thousand intro points here, but we are not having a go at the BVA, number one. Number two, we're not having a go at vets per se. What we are doing is we're having a go at the conclusions of this working group, okay? And I've got two. I'm just going to do this because then in a minute Brady's going to start ranting and then Bren is going to start ranting, so I'm just going to get mine in first.

Number one, before you do that, no, before you rant, before you do anything else.

Oh yeah, okay, right.

You might have noticed tonight we're in a bit of a ladder. We've changed the format very slightly. Some people watch us on their phone, and so they will find it's really useful, and other people will say, but I watch you on the TV, or I watch you on my computer, and now you've put that and messed it up. So please, we'd love to hear from you. Put in your feedback. If you'd like to watch it in a different format, let us know and we'll change it back.

I'd like to watch this in a different format. What made you think I should be on the bottom? Not suiting me. I don't like this. Although I was on the right, so you could say if you tilted it that way.

Oh, you wanted to be a left leaner, did you?

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Okay. I don't think I should be in the middle, but then I shouldn't be on the top either. Okay, I'm on the bottom. All right, I accept it. Oh, bloody hell.

Yeah, so guys, just tell us whether you mainly use the phone, mainly use your laptop, mainly use your God knows what. To watch us, please.

That's a good one. Yeah, we do need to know that. And also, Nicky, you said we're not having a go at the BVA. I just have to put my hand up that I posted on Dogs First. I was in a flurry and I said, uh, join us tonight while we tear the BVA a new one. So I don't think that's fair. We're not tearing the BVA a new one. I instantly retract that. But as a non-vet of the gang, I can say and do whatever I like.

You can say what you like. Yeah, but we're not endorsing that position.

We are not. Okay. And therefore I instantly retract that. And by tearing them a new one, that's an Irish saying for It's something friendly, so it's nice.

Is that right?

Yeah, sorry about that. It really sounds like it. Anyway, back to you, Nick. What did you want to say?

Okay, so a couple of things to say. So we're not having a go at anybody except the conclusions of this working group, which I think we as vaguely intelligent professionals have every right to do. So we're just expressing that, right? Okay, the next thing is the BVA is, uh, is— here you go, I'm just going to read from here— is, is in partnership. The BVA, on their website you can find it, you just put in BVA, British Veterinary Association, and corporate partnerships. This is what I did a couple of days ago, and there in loud and proud it says Mars Petcare partnership. BVA and Mars Petcare are working together to examine the links between pet nutrition, human behavior and healthy body weight in pets. Okay, so they have got a vested interest because they state it, yeah, i.e., Mars is giving them cash, and that is not declared. I've just done a word search on the document, okay, so I just searched for MERS and it ain't mentioned there. Therefore, I think that is a conflict of interest. Marion Nestle, in her book which is called Unsavory Truth, which is a brilliant book, but pretend I didn't mention that because I'll get in trouble. She says if you have corporate sponsorship, you are up to 8 times more likely to find in favor of that sponsor than if you haven't got that sponsorship. And this is usually a, a subconscious thing. Okay, so we're not blaming the ABVA, we're just saying this is interesting and we need— and it should be declared. Good science says you declare interests. How can you trust Mars, who make Royal Cannon, by the way? When you look on Mars snacking, okay, it says when you make brands that inspire moments of everyday happiness— this is their snacks, yeah, chocolate snacks, yeah— you you feel a sense of pride in your work. I mean, that's like, that's like a gun manufacturer saying, we take pride in our guns because they maintain peace. Yeah. And I'm sorry, how can you trust a company who makes Bounty bars, Celebrations, Wrigley's spearmint gum, Galaxy chocolate, Hubba Bubba? Juicy Fruit, M&Ms, Maltesers, Mars bars, Milky Ways, uh, the kind of snack you can eat between meals, by the way. Snickers and Skittles and Starbursts and Twix. Uh, so, so I mean, how can you trust to— I, I personally have great difficulty trusting a company who is, uh, dead set on poisoning the human population.

In your opinion?

There you go, rant over.

I think that's spot on. Do you know what I love asking? You know, Mars and Nestlé, the two biggest candy companies in the world. Name a single nutritional product made by either company that's good for humans. Go.

Yeah, they would argue that.

Silence. Is there like—

Do you know? Cocoa Pops?

Yeah.

Tracker bars, I think, have some nuts in them. Like, you know, it's The nearest you will get to a nutritional product, a nutritious product made by those will be baby formula, which is, you know, it's a good product if you can't feed—

Oh, oh, let's not go there.

If you can't feed breast milk, there's a reason Nestlé's the most hated company in the world and the most boycotted food company on earth. That's the closest they came to a complete food, you know, and they didn't do it. You know, it took people power in the '70s and '80s to push that one back, although they're still at it. So, you know, there's the whole— I think you're totally right, Nick. These aren't companies that are known to make deeply nutritious and healthy products for humans. They are known for not making those ultra-processed foods.

Listen to this: Ben's Original— that's Ben's as in Uncle Ben's Rice— Dolmio, the spaghetti sauce thing, ultra-processed. Um, Kevin's— never heard of them. Masterfoods— they make a lot of ultra-processed. Miracoli— never heard of them. Parmesello, Royco, Seeds of Change. Seeds of Change sounds quite, quite, quite healthy, but I bet they're not. Susie Wan, Tasty Bite. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Nope, nope, fail. Mars, you— I think that they're doing more harm than good, in my opinion and in the opinion of Chris, uh, Van Tuliken, who wrote Ultra-Processed Food. If you want to get a really, really, really entertaining and easy-to-read take on ultra-processed food, And he does single out Nestlé. Okay, there you go, that's it. I've got a lot to say. Yeah, yeah, I've got a lot to say on this, but I don't want to steal everything.

If you go to bva.co.uk/about-us/corporate-partnerships, you can get quite a list of the people that the BVA take cash from, and the two leading partners are Mars Petcare of candy bar and complete pet food fame. They're the biggest pet one of the biggest dry pet food manufacturers in the world, and Zoetis, who make all your lovely anti-parasite control and vaccinations for dogs, so, and cats, and every other animal on the planet. So they're the two biggest sponsors, and I totally agree with Nick. There's a very famous study by Moynehan called 'Who Pays for the Pizza?' and it was written like in the '90s, and the same facts that Nick just said. Here is the facts when a study is produced by corporate sponsorship, you know, so they're not paying for studies that slag them off, you know, you're not, you're paying for results, you're paying. And so it's quite obvious, and the results that aren't favorable don't get published. Why would you publish that if it injures your industry? You only publish the positive studies. So there's many ways to skew it, and who pays for the pizza is a very important one. And like all the vegan pet food studies, it's only pro-veg and vegan pet food companies sponsoring those, you know, so it's quite telling. So when Helsinki University do it, who are relatively independent, and they just get money from wherever. That's what you want to see, you know, it's at least a start. Although veterinary departments are cash sponsored by pet food companies, so even if a veterinary department came out with a study, you still have to say who cash funds the veterinary department. If you want to know, you ring the veterinary department and say, hey guys, what dry food do you sell? We only sell Pedigree TUM. Okay, you're sponsored by Mars or Royal Canin or whatever. So what you want to do, Brendon, do you want to go next or should I?

I think Well, I think you were taking a bit about balanced nutrition. We can talk a little bit about that. I think, look, there's some areas within those statements as we went through, and they start to talk a little bit about what are their ideals within diets. And, you know, I think they talk a little bit about the kibbles. They even talk a bit about vegetarian and vegan and saying that there's some issues around cats and It certainly needs to be looked into. I think there's a really interesting bit that you raised, actually. Where does it go from being something that's about One Health and talking about, you know, the comparisons with our animals and humans within the household and looking at, you know, are there similarities that we should draw from? And coming back to what you were talking about with ultra-processed foods, they've totally missed that.

No mention of ultra-processed food.

You mentioned it, but the article doesn't mention it. Yeah, but I think something that you raised, Conor, was when they start to talk about ecology and actually the environment and feeding sustainability, is that something that is primarily a position statement on feeding dogs and cats? Or actually, should we be stepping up to feeding dogs and cats properly and then reviewing sustainability? But I guess that encroaches a little into what Nick wants to talk about later.

I might talk about sustainability if we get time. However, guys, let's start at the beginning. The beginning, and Wren, this is, this is place to you because you have for years talked about the Animal Welfare Act and about the 5 welfare needs of animals.

Absolutely.

Do you want to kick off with that?

Sorry, guys, do you want to let me go at it? Because I've got these— I've got this introduction picked out. And so I was going to do, you know, let me do this introduction because I've got the highlight that I need and then let Bren act. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Just, just let me, let me act this for a sec. So just the first 2 pages, if people are reading the document and they are stressing that they, when looking at diet, it's really important that, you know, you have access to clear, scientifically sound information. And that can be challenging, we all agree. And this positional statement takes in key considerations when choosing suitable diets for cats and dogs, including meeting nutritional needs— so say all of us— safety, absolutely, and sustainability of ingredients, which is a new thing that they're very, very focused on as of the last 3, 4, or 5 years with the push and the carbon nonsense and that kind of thing. It does not attempt to determine which diet is most suitable for particular animals. I was like, Hmm, okay, it does not attempt to determine which diet is most suitable for particular animals, so that's strange, but that's fair enough. But it definitely does deter you from the diets it doesn't want you to feed. So it's interesting, it votes for a lot of different products down below as I'm going to read them out, but they definitely don't mention ones they don't want to promote, which is fresh food. They never mentioned that word once. So this position was developed with a number of different people, a companion animal feeding group bringing together veterinary professionals with expertise in nutrition, animal health welfare, Bren, Nick, did the RFES get any emails about this that was taking place that they wanted to talk to you about the benefits of feeding fresh food to pets?

I have to say, yeah, I have to say that I've got a friend who is on the working group, this working group.

Oh yeah.

Yep. And he, uh, he contacted me about a year ago and said, can we put your name down as a, uh, consultant for Raw? And guess how much they wanted me to come and talk.

How much?

That much. I didn't say—

you put your name down, but they still—

down. And this guy, he's very persuasive and fantastic, and, and he's very sympathetic to, to what we're talking about, and they did not want. So they've, they've had this working group, and they have not, as far as I can tell, consulted one vet who is familiar in any meaningful way with raw or fresh food feeding. They did have Andrew Knight, who is the champion of vegan foods for pets.

Wow.

And they did have board-certified nutritionists, but they didn't have somebody who has got some kind of experience on a very large part of this entire—

Didn't ask Professor Annaheim Borgman from Helsinki University. The absolute leader of research in canine nutrition. Forget about dry or raw. They didn't ask her for her opinion and her latest research. I don't know.

She's got—

she's got studies in Nature. You don't think that she would be asked as a scientist? Are they slave to evidence-based research, this organization? And they don't ask the one researcher that has the most publications in the matter? I mean, that stinks. Absolutely stinks. So, and they also— the position was also developed with a range of stakeholders. Now, that's the first truthful thing I've seen written down. There. A range of stakeholders indeed. Let's wonder who those stakeholders are. Nick's already highlighted them. So the first thing they start talking about is at the bottom of the first page, food choices for cats and dogs meeting nutritional needs. Most important that with food we provide for pets meets the nutritional requirements, and failure to do so can lead to a number of health issues including malnutrition, obesity, a range of diseases such as kidney gastrointestinal disease and dental disease. So on that line alone, if you're to say it must meet their pet's nutritional requirements, okay, What about the Davies study that showed two-thirds of complete dry pet food and 94% of complete canned food sold in the UK, or in the UK, 160 products tested, failed to make the minimum nutritional standards for dogs and cats to exist over 6 months of age? So if they fail to provide the minimum standards to the cats and dogs, they have to get sick. So the BVA, by their own definition of this whole statement, The foods that you choose for your pets must fulfill their nutritional requirements. Two-thirds of complete pet foods sold in the UK, which is overseen by the BFEA or BVA, are not doing that. So what have the BVA got to say about cereal-based pet food? Not the majority of cereal-based pet food not achieving the minimal standards. Not one single comment about the dangers of that. Not a single comment about the study. The study wasn't mentioned. It was published in 2017 by Mike Davies, who they hold in very high regard, who was a big vegan pet food guy. Like he developed all the Omni range, uh, you know, why is that study not mentioned? And why the danger?

Absolutely right. And the thing that's so dangerous about that is that actually all of those companies that talk about feed at my— our complete food, by just saying those few words, are suggesting to people to not vary the diet but just to feed that complete food, which brings in even more dangerous because as soon as you don't vary the diet, then if there is a deficiency, it's accentuated. It's not just a risk, it becomes actually, if there's any fault with that manufacturing process, then any deficiency that's there— maybe they've chosen the wrong minerals to put in it, they've chosen the wrong vitamins, because of course that never happens, they've chosen non-bioavailable stuff. And it's repeated over and over and over again with no variety. Yeah, all of those issues are accentuated because it happens not over just days, not over weeks, not over months, but over years. People are doing this for years, and then there's somebody accidentally puts the wrong shovel in the mix because they don't test what comes out of the factory and publish it. On every single batch, what we end up with is mistakes happen, they're not spotted until unfortunately dogs start dying, animals get sick, or unfortunately die. And that's really bad.

So also, also looking at it from the other perspective, they are made on averages. This is what the average— this is how much zinc the average dog needs, okay? Average. Therefore, by definition, you're going to have a big wodge of dogs who are above average requirements and a big wedge of dogs who are below average. Okay, so the ones who are below average requirements, they're going to get too much zinc, for example. And the ones who are too bit too, too above average requirements for whatever reason, because they've had antibiotics and their biome is shot or something, then they are going to get insufficient. But all the guys in the middle, that, I don't know, 5, 10, 20% in the middle, they might be okay for zinc. But then we talk about calcium, then we talk about magnesium, then we talk about selenium, then we talk about vitamin E, and we go on. Through the great list.

Guys, how did our mothers ever get us to survive?

I don't know.

I mean, because of variety, okay, which they are trying to mitigate against in this document. They say complete food. No, it's complete diets, guys. That is the key. Variety gives you complete—

they say, uh, they say here cats and dogs need a range of nutrients including essential amino acids, vitamins, and minerals. Did you know that meat is the only food substrate that provides dogs all their essential amino acids, vitamins, and minerals— meat, organ, and bone. That is the only diet that can do that. So everything else has to be supplemented by your George Jackson poxy supplements. So if that was— if the BVA meant that statement, then you would say, which are only provided by meat, organ, and bone. So therefore everything else has to be—

could I bring a bit of balance in here? No, because of a lot of study that I've done with regards to our modern farming and what the animal diet formulators will say should be in those meats. I have to declare there are only certain farming practices which will give you those entireties of balance. I'm afraid there are deficiencies because we don't feed whole carcass. We chop off their heads and we have to dispose of them elsewhere. There's certain organs within the abdomen we're not allowed to feed, and that then detracts from that overall balance, added to which certain farming techniques which don't allow appropriate mineral uptake and maximize the microbiome and everything else. So I'm afraid that there is, even in some of the best diets I've looked at it now, there are certain ways to make those nutrients bioavailable and utilize that added in. But I would declare that I think I want any company that can come forward and say that they are not just, just over the minimum and they're not just doing it by formulators, but they're actually testing their products and they're optimising nutrition, whether that be dry, tinned, raw, whatever, without having to do some trick.

Yeah, like imagine intensively reared chicken. 10 weeks living on wheat and corn. Try hit your vitamins and your omega-3 to 6 profile on that, you know. So that's definitely an issue for sure. Intensively reared meat is the majority of the meat that we're consuming here in Ireland and the UK. I mean, all of our poultry comes from indoors, let's face it. A tiny, tiny amount are reared outside. And how many of them on actual wild forage? Virtually none. Good luck trying to make a profitable business on wild ducks, you know. It's just not possible. So, uh, yeah, that's a really good point, Bren. Um, I wish you didn't make it, but it's very—

sorry.

Yeah.

Well, you know, it's about balance. It's about, you know, truly about balance. But I think that variety, that understanding, that, that's why there are so many great supplements out there that we sometimes will reach for, and you've got some more control of. I think if you've got a company that's adding some artificial additives in there, just ask what types of additives. Are they equivalent to the supplements you can reach off the shelf? Which are at the top end and good quality, or are they the George Jetson, you know, stuff that's actually not really going to be absorbed but on paper looks like it's going to do the job? So there are differences. Know the questions to ask, how to get the answers on what you're trying to develop. And, you know, just to go back, when you come to testing your pet for that individual stuff that Nick was talking about, that actually not all pets require the same amount. Something that's been really disappointing across the board, whether I've been looking at raw-fed or especially with kibble-fed, and I've looked at their omega-3 or 6:3 ratios, I have been gobsmacked at how far out they have been in these blood tests. So yeah, looking at the cellular health, working out what integrated into their bodies, you know, the level of omega-6 to 3s, our level of oxidation, level of damage to those are unbelievable. But, you know, we, we should be optimizing, getting ourselves, you know, really down to the sort of 4 to 1 sort of ratio if you want to be anti-inflammatory. You know, you're sort of in an okay zone if you're below 10, down to that 4. But actually, the majority of dogs are slotting in way up over 15, even 20:1 ratios, sometimes even 30:1 if they're kibble-fed.

I've got permitted.

And the biggest problem is that's permitted, as you just said, but actually I see when I've then analyzed the diets that they're using and then the supplements, there's usually about 15 of them that people are adding in to try and get there. There's so many seed oils are creeping in those mixes, even in raw. So watch out for those seed oils creeping in because they are being added because people say, well, it's better for the coat, we're going to get the omegas up, but they're just being general and they're not thinking the optimum health.

So we're halfway through page 1. I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get the next one.

That's strange.

That's all right, we'll do it again. Let me get done here in 30 seconds. I'll finish this off. The BVA then go on about trends, you know, trendy foods are now popping up. Bear in mind, kibble's been around for 60, 70 years. That's the trendy food. But the trends, of course, people, owners, you know, bloody owners thinking that their dog is a wolf, the natural wolf diet, and feeding the wolf diet to dogs. Absolutely nobody this side of the fence ever mentions wolf diet. Some people use the word wolf tucker for their products and all that kind of crap, but there's nobody out here analyzing wolves and feeding exactly that to their dogs. Not a single person. The BVA put that in there to make you guys look like dummies. It's to make people sound like you're just, oh yeah, you think it's a wolf, it's actually a dog, guys, it's not a wolf. It's like, only idiots say that. Only literally people that are trying to wind you up say that. That really annoys me. And the diet must reflect the animal's specific needs. Well then, how could you possibly make a generalized product for everyone? As Nick said, it must. So everything the BVA is saying here is absolutely nonsense because cereal-based pet food can't possibly and can't fix every person's needs. How can you possibly know, you know? So, and the last little bit at the bottom of this page, the most commonly fed diets, bearing in mind the BVA, 20% of the UK is feeding fresh and some raw dog food to their dogs, so it's not a small fraction. The BVA lists the common fed foods in the UK, and they are meat and cereal-based pet food promoted by the industry, but the owners have increasing access to options including foods which are vegetarian and vegan, okay, grain-free, okay, or with limited ingredients, issue one source of carbohydrate or protein. And there is also a growing interest in foods containing alternative proteins such as insects, cultured meat, yeast, and algae. Not once was feeding a fresh meat diet mentioned in some of the diets that people are choosing for their pets. What bullshit. This is just utter— people see straight through this and it's doing enormous damage. It's doing enormous damage as the trust in the veterinary industry is plummeting. When the head of the, when the head association is putting out comments like this, Trust is people see straight through this and go, this stinks. So that's page one done. I think I should just stop.

And is that as far as you're going?

Page one?

I think you were supposed to be doing page two as well.

Listen, they go into bloody nutrition, nutritional imbalances and specific diets for specific diseases and stuff. But if you're going to do that, only consult a veterinary nutritionist, of which there are how many in the UK? 3? 2 of them work for companies, one is available for vets to talk to. And so everyone just talk to Marge Chandler. So just get Marge on the phone every time your dog's obese, you need a weight control diet, which is 60 to 70% of the UK population. They all just pop Marge on the phone. How many million pets is Marge going to deal with? I mean, it's so ridiculous. This information is 20 years ago, you know. So me going to doing the second page, it's all about nutritional imbalances. They don't mention the fact that the study, the study show the diets with the most nutritional balances are cereal-based pet food. They don't mention that because of their cash sponsors, let's face it. So that's the middle of the page and on down to the bottom it is— oh, here's a terrible line— it is possible to feed dogs a plant-based diet. This is the first time.

Just reading it. Yeah.

So you have all the cats.

Absolutely. You can't do vegan. Okay. But, you know, because they actually say that in this statement, but then they do. It is possible. Who came up with that?

Just like, based on— you'd swear there's lots of new research. So I just had a look at the top 10 studies that the vegan lobby used for this. Sadly, the co-author of Nutrigenomics with Gene Dodds, Diana Lavrados, a big pro-vegan nutritionist. And so she just wrote a piece saying, hooray, BVA endorsed vegan pet food. And I'm like, holy shit, what happened here? And then they list the 10 studies in support. It's like survey, survey, survey, 10 dogs, survey, survey. It's like, if you want to talk surveys, let's talk about the surveys done by Helsinki University. That's 16,500 respondents. Published in Nature and whatnot. Those surveys are not permitted by the BVA, but a survey of 100 vegans saying, yeah, I think my dog's lived about 2 years longer— front page of the Vet Times, you know. So, uh, that's that second page done. I'm done, honest, to be honest with you. That's just a waste of my time.

Well, I'd like to just add in, you know, that, um, they do say there is a lack of robust long-term data.

They still said you can do it. They can say that all they want, it's true. There's zero data. Zero data.

You've got to be balanced, Conor.

No, there's zero. I mean, when you compare the science that supports vegan pet food, these few surveys done by the pro-veg lobby, all paid for and conducted by