RawPetMedics FB Live: Q&A

Come on, they're gonna be like, they're already talking, how did we miss that?

They're all running from the kitchen to their—

oh, look, he's there, he's early. Oh, well done. Yeah, I think there's special bonus points for these three.

Oh, definitely, definitely. Rach actually raised this, the thing about the vegetarian, um, business with me. So we should have a chat about that in a minute or two, maybe.

Yeah, that was fun, wasn't it, really? I mean, we might as well be having a chat about it now while we're waiting for people to come in. Where did you hear about it, Nick, first? Somebody sent you a link to— which bit did you hear first?

Yeah, so I think Sasha— or no, Karen. Karen Reid, I think, sent me a link saying, oof, you're not going to like this. And yeah, quite right. I don't like it. You know, I think people can be vegan. I haven't got a problem with people going vegan. However, if you say I'm going vegan because it's more healthy than you, me, omnivore, then I have a problem with that. And if you say you're going vegan to save the planet, I have a problem with that because I don't think veganism is going to save the planet. I think small, local, beyond beyond sustainable regenerative agriculture with animals and crops and lots and lots of grass to fix that carbon. That for me is the future of the planet. It's kind of going back to the 18th century farming methods. Where are you on the vegan thing, Conor? You're a veggie, so where are you on the vegan question?

As you say about the sustainable farming, I'm totally switched on to that. We did an RPM on it This day last month, I think it was about 4 weeks ago. So guys, go to the archives and check it out. It was— it should be eye-opening. It was definitely one of our most successful ones because it's such news to people. It's like, cows feature in this? And I, as a vegetarian, was stumped by it too, because, like, you know, welfare and slaughtering methods for me is what pushed me over the edge. Carbon is what kept me a vegetarian. And I thought, right, well, I'm not moving from this diet. And then of late, I have been making small inroads back that book, Deep Nutrition, rocked me badly. And then the sustainable farming coming at me from, from the two of you guys. And then I was like, okay, now I'm going to have to make inroads. So now that we— now that I'm in this place of very, very largely vegetarian, a tiny bit of meat here and there, it seems to suit me. Okay, the kids like it and that's where I am. I think maybe a lot of people are moving that way and I can't imagine many vegetarians or vegans will leap back to the meat wagon. Too easy because a lot of them are there for welfare reasons and carbon. And once you get to this point, you find it difficult to go back to enjoying a piece of pork if you don't know that pig was running around outside, which is, you know, rare enough to find in a restaurant. So yeah, I think that's where we are. The vegetarian diets bit was in The Guardian newspaper where—

your favorite paper.

Yes, fantastic. Well, their online website is a clickbait phenomenon now, sadly going the way everyone else is, which, you know, should have been probably a good paper at the years ago, but journalism is gone now. It's just digital marketeers. So they have this story. The head of the BVA said, look guys, you've got to feed your pets appropriately. And then the head of the Blue Cross came in and said, yeah, you know, we're not quite sure if vegan diets are going to do it. Or did the BVA head— what's her name? DeSantos. Anyway, look, they just— She's no longer there.

So it's no longer DeSantos. So it's not—

Oh, okay.

They rotate every year for the BVA.

Oh, okay. Very good. So they came up with this question, is it our vegetarian diets will struggle to do that? And I thought, wow, 'Oh, coming from the head of the BVA, this is fantastic.' And they said, 'If you hold the hand of a veterinary nutritionist, maybe.' So she kind of lost me there. But then there was a furor of like, you know, 'You, if you don't stick to the Animal Welfare Act of 2006, you can get fined X amount of money, go to jail for 11 months.' So the tabloids headlines was like, you know, 'Vegans will go to jail for 11 months if they feed their dogs like vegetarians.' And that started it off. And then Knight came in with his survey saying, well, actually vegan dogs enjoy eating vegan dry food, and it's like, oh please. So that's as far as I know.

You had a really interesting point. I think this study about the quantities that they put on— sorry, the quantities they eat increases, and that then actually makes them overeat and become more tendency to obesity and all of the diseases that that comes in. You know, was it you, Nick, actually, that you might have come in on that conversation we had midweek with regards to that. I think there was that paper, and I'm just trying to remember who wrote it, where they were comparing processed diets and raw diets, and they were talking about how much more animals would eat if they were given these processed diets versus the raw diets. And I think there was also a level of, for those that are high-carb diets versus low-carb diets, how much more they will eat if they're on those high-carb diets. But this is the sort of sustainable eating that we're going to need to do, guys, is literally, you know, that's a knife and fork. That's the amount of meat that you're actually getting. Is that blood? No, that's gravy. Don't worry, it was a juniper jus.

Oh, I could handle that.

I think we should eat a lot less meat and we should eat a lot better quality and better welfare. I think the welfare, you know, modern farming can be not great, and in the States it's often not great, but over here when it's good, it's fabulous. And if we move to regenerative farming, then fabulous, fabulous.

I think it is about eating well and eating sensibly and actually realizing— I mean, I'm looking at my dogs and realizing that actually, yeah, they will eat. I mean, somebody's made comment on here about, you know, I've got a Labrador and they'll eat everything. You know, well, actually, do you know what? Um, yeah, I've got a Labrador and she will point to the, you know, the fridge and say, yeah, maybe some more food. And I'm just realizing that actually, no, she can't have any more food because she will just end up being overwhelmed because it's the protein. You've got to realize, you know, the fat will satiate them, a lot of these diets don't have enough fats in them. They have loads of protein. And what do they do with the protein? They convert that through the pyruvate pathways into glucose and onwards, you know, back to the whole thing that we're trying to avoid in the first place.

Yeah.

Karen Reid made a savage point there as we were talking about vegetarian diets. She, she made my favorite point, which is, sure, isn't cereal-based pet food practically vegetarian anyway? That's exactly the point, because actually did a review in 2016 where he's quite pro the vegetarian feeding of meat eaters based on, you know, funny, the few bits of information. But his endpoint was kind of where he said, well, compared to meat-based diets, they do as well over a year. And I thought, wow, they did a comparative study for a year of cereal-based pet foods in their diet. But by meat-based, he means cereal-based pet food. And cereal-based pet food, of course, is 4% bone meal, and that's considered meat-based dry food. So, you know, that's not my consideration. I would expect meat-based dry food to have meat in it, you know, and be the majority ingredient. Dare to dream. So yeah, I mean, you're right, Karen, the cereal-based pet food with 4% cow's toenail in it, it's hardly a meat feast for your little meat eater. So you're just comparing, like, but like a well-made vegetarian dry food, yeah, I'd no doubt it can beat the pants off a typical cereal-based complete food. I mean, because it's the same, nearly the same product, you know. So, you know, all you got to do is use better vitamins and minerals, chelated vitamins and minerals, and boom, your product is, is better. Look, it's just, it's just nutritional nonsense. Vegetarian flatulence is what I call it. Something we need to ignore anyway. And guys, tonight we're going to do Q&A, but before we do it, I just wanted to say, uh, patreon.com/rawpetmedics. Thanks everybody for the donations to that, they're coming in as they do and we do appreciate them. If you have the price of a cup of coffee or a beer, an extra £2 on top, then please, we deeply appreciate it. It helps us to prepare and organize and yeah, so, and plan for what we're going to be bringing you in the future. So we do appreciate it, Raw Pet Medics on patreon.com/rawpetmedics. But, um, yeah, so did somebody want to start us off on that?

I do, I do. I just, I'm being personally sponsored today, and, and my studio is being provided by DermaDog, dermadog.com. She's got the dot-com, and this is where I am at the moment. Let me just give you a little look. This is my message, by the way. Raw Pet Medics rock! And this is, this is my studio, because normally I have to go to I have to go drive 25 minutes to work. Yeah, this is the workshop, the DermaDog workshop.

Oh, cool, very nice.

Oh, Nick, please correct yourself. Do not refer to your better half as the wife.

Is that not allowed anymore?

Is that not okay? Is that not— and then back to here. Here we go. So there you go, that's where I am today. I've stolen her shed where she makes all these things, and I'm really, really grateful because I can just— and I don't need to go to work.

What's DermaDog about, Nick? Give it a quick plug there.

DermaDog is fantastic. I'll grab you some sample.

Oh geez, I meant 10 seconds, Nick. Where's he gone?

Bloody hell.

Oh, what did you steal?

There you go.

So she does shampoos basically for dogs. She does either liquid shampoos like that or, uh, bars of shampoo. But one of the things that I really love is it's called Calm Balm, and it's absolutely brilliant. You need to get a little cut in the paw or little, you know, nick on your— on, on the dog's nose, and absolutely brilliant. A lot of my clients use it on their lips in the winter. They say, yeah, that's odd, the dog, it's great for my lips.

Cool, love it. Where can we get it?

Great, yeah, thank you for saying. And yeah, so there you go, it's all good stuff and we use it on the kids, so it's tested on children, used on dogs.

Nice one. Yeah, where do we get it?

Where'd you get it? Uh, dermadog.com. Cool, thank you, lads. Yeah, yeah, that's good. You will get a great, great dinner next time you're down here.

There you go, she can post it out to us. Um, so, uh, Nick, you are having a scan— or a scam— a scan through the, uh, Patreon account there, and that a lot of people send their Qs in there. And so you are going to provide some A's. So what's the first question that leapt off your page? Uh, tell us.

This— it's, it's, uh, it's a question about, I think, an ultrasonic teeth cleaning. It's called Emipet, and one of our, one of our Patreon, uh, uh, patrons has, has said, you know, it's, it's contentious what do you think? So I think it's a bit too contentious, to be honest, at the moment, because the, the, uh, RCVS is, is looking at it and, and what have you. But just a couple of thoughts, Brendan, from you as, as a practitioner who, you know, you'll go face to face here. And also, Conor, what are your thoughts? Because you may have had some experience with it as well.

Yeah, look, I'll, I'll go in first, but, you know, from the point of view of, um, I have two sets of people. Some people have said it's brilliant. I've had some people that have said they have been really worried about how restrained their dogs have been, and I think different groomers will be restraining those dogs differently depending on their level of confidence, depending on the individual. You know, if you've got a little snappy dog that's, you know, going to bite anything that goes within 6 inches of its face versus a lovely spaniel that's going to just sit there and smile at you whilst you do whatever you like, Totally different stress factors, totally different welfare impacts, and we're reliant on that being made appropriately. I think, you know, the level of plaque that we're seeing usually in practice is where it's gone beyond plaque and it's now actually a calcified material, the tartar, that's on top of that, and that's not going to clear with one of the Amipet sort of go-overs. It is going to be sort of some return trips, etc. Big advantages, you know, not really needing to sedate for those dogs that will be compliant. I always question with anything that's ultrasonic and you're using it near a dog as to— I just, I'm amazed at how tolerant they are, but then I've got a teenage child that will quite happily sit in front of a stereo speaker with it cranked up to whatever, you know, volume, uh, and seem to be, you know, oblivious to what's going on. Uh, so I guess, you know, um, yeah, there are some, you know, it's horses for courses. And I think, you know, as long as people are aware, if your dog doesn't like it, stop and rethink.

What about Conor? What about you? What are your thoughts? Have you experienced with it?

I'm interested with the ultrasonic bit actually, because I'm surprised I never thought really, if I never really thought the thing was ultrasonic, I just assumed it was something else. But for people that haven't seen them, it's like a silicone toothbrush, very soft bristles, and there's no hardly any rubbing friction at all in the teeth. So it's very, very gentle compared to a toothbrush that people can use on their dogs, which I think would just be strange thing to do when you've got raw meaty bones out there that do a phenomenal job. One week, two bones in one week, 68% of the tartar in one study. So Like, I think the EmmiPet thing, yeah, I have actually tried it on Dudley. He had some tartar at the top of his canines. It's never a good look to be the nutritionist with a dog with tartar, but hey ho, sometimes people say to you he's looking a bit tubby and you don't realize. So it happens. But, um, so I went down 2 passes of the EmmiPet, so 2 goals went down, 2-minute session. Dudley loves it because he just loves anybody being near him, you know, cocker spaniel. So, um, and then the second— by the time the second pass was done, his teeth were really clean. So I was really impressed. So as a non-vet, I kind of thought, wow, this could be, uh, this could be pretty cool to keep dogs off GA and go going in for some old dog going for general anaesthetic, you know. And so yeah, I'm kind of, um, I'm kind of pro them, to be honest. And they're cheap and they're not harmful. But I didn't really think about the handling bit of it. But I do think groomers are pretty, pretty artists at handling dogs. I mean, they've been— I mean, so yeah, I get your point, lads. And I get where there's a vet crossover as well, because it does go into a treatment doesn't it? And that's—

there's a lot of things like the gingivitis, you know, it's about mobilization of bacteria into those mouths. Is there an underlying heart condition? All sorts of other stuff that we've talked about in the past. Just like to say to Ella, I think that is— no, I didn't. I said terriers, I did not say staffies.

Anyway, I know the difference.

I've got I've got Stewie, who is the best Staffordshire Bull Terrier, comes in and he just comes straight up to you, almost acts like a therapy dog. In fact, I've just got another Staffie that's a therapy dog as well, and they are just gorgeous. I often count it actually down to the owners, not the breed, that these dogs— but anyway, that's another one.

Karen Reid says something very embarrassing. Conor, I've got a great seaweed product for teeth.

I do.

Yeah, it's absolutely fantastic, guys. It removes the tartar or your money back, it's fantastic. Sorry to plug my own product, but you're very right, Karen. Thanks for just mentioning that in the feed. There's Rodney Habib. We are greeted by royalty, lads. And your question is instantly something I can't answer, which is just typical of you, Rodney. Just put me on the spot and I can't perform. So let's just start off with Rodney's question, really, seeing as he's here. And here it goes. I want to rescue a cat one day, and once I do, and once I do, is it okay to feed him lobster? Bloody hell. And I heard it makes them aggressive, and if it does, can you recommend a good cat trainer?

I think he's taking it in.

Yes, he is. He's feeding lobster because the amount— I mean, that's how successful the book's been. This is the lobster now.

Lobster and caviar. Is it okay just to feed my cat lobster and caviar? Champagne? That's in the water dish.

Yeah, yeah. Number one New York Times bestseller on the New York Times. Um, yeah, congratulations.

Congratulations, Rodney and Gary. Brilliant.

That's a mega success.

Guys, he's not a raw-feeding, fresh-feeding rock star. He's a very naughty boy. Yeah, that's a quote from which movie, guys? Which movie is that a quote from?

Not Messiah. He's a very naughty boy. Life of Brian. What a movie. Brilliant. So yeah, but there is a question though. Let's just take it seriously for a moment. Would you feed your dog lobster? Why wouldn't you feed your dog lobster? Anybody got a problem with a bit of a lobster?

In proportion, and it ain't going to be raw comfortably, is it? I mean, they are sort of— you've got to think about where they're feeding from, you know. There's a lot of shellfish and things like that that I always get a little bit jumpy about feeding raw, you know, mussels included. If they've not been cleaned through properly You know, there is a danger with certain bacteria that they would harbour. So, you know, you've got to be careful with how far you go when you're talking raw in that sense. Same thing with oysters, you know, fine, eat them raw yourself, but you've got to know where they've come from. You can get a really bad oyster and end up with some serious illness if you're not careful.

So yeah, from a welfare point of view, boys, lobsters often go in the pot alive.

And I couldn't do it.

So you couldn't have a conversation with it. But I think that— I don't think that that's a great thing. I really don't.

Yeah, it doesn't sound good. Um, but mussels— you— your Scottish mussel industry is unreal and it's blown ours out of the water. So in Tesco's we get bags, 300-gram bags of mussels for like £3, £4. How do they ship that over here? Like, anyway, so, but it's a great source of manganese, mussels. So if you're not going to feed the hair and hide and feathers and stuff, if raw feeders, raw manufacturers put it in the product, you think, oh lads, what are you doing, feathers? But actually it could be a very important source of animal fiber, and it's the only place you're going to get manganese on a prey animal. So mussels do replace that. So it's a pretty cool— and they're cool little round meaty treats, and you can get a handful and you can throw them right into the garden when Dudley's wrecking your head, and he goes out there for 15 minutes. So I do like them, but I do think these are filter feeders. I really hope the water's clear where they are, and you do think about that kind of stuff. But it's the same as a lot of farmed animals, isn't it? Um, what else, Nick? Did you get anything else from your Patreon?

Let's have a look, uh, now for Patreon. Can you please talk about incontinence in older dogs, perhaps brought on by late castration? So boys, I've tried No More Leaks, Hold It, two homeopathic remedies from a vet. And nothing is working. No more leaks. The product did help a little but didn't stop it. What are your thoughts?

Oh, outside me now. Bram, give us some insight, please.

So, um, depends very much, you know what, I presume we've got a female dog, you know.

No, she's a boy. It's a boy.

It's a boy. Okay, so right, same thing actually, hormonally. Um, just have a little look at what you're feeding how that's driving the hormones for that dog. There are some important diseases that I'm hoping your vet has just gone through and isolated and made sure there isn't any secondary infections going on, because that will often override all of those other things which may be there to strengthen the sphincter of the bladder, maybe there to reduce irritation of the urethra and lower part. But if there's an underlying prostatitis or there's an underlying issue with the bladder, then that certainly is important to address. Something really important that we've had 2 cases of in the last 3 months is even in fully neutered dogs having a prostatic carcinoma. Still coming through. So remember, there are other things. Somebody was saying earlier, if we're raw food feeding, why do we need to think even about supplements, etc.? Reasons are not all foods are perfect, okay? Even on the raw side. So you've got to think about that. But if you want to read Toxic by Neil Nathan, you'll understand the level of stuff in our environment, in our homes, in our day-to-day lives. You know, if you put a new carpet down, the level of chemicals that are in that, um, so if you walk across a field and what it's sprayed with, the levels of stuff that will actually also be carcinogenic, also have hormonal influence, also cause problems. And that's the difficulty that we're in, all in individual environments. So therefore you have to look at those cases individually. But we used to say, oh, you know, years ago, decades ago, castrate them, you'll stop prostate disease, you'll stop prostate cancer, it's absolutely fine. So these, you know, gobsmacking to find, you know, you go through the process, you feel the prostate, you say that is enlarged even though this is a castrated dog, you do the prostatic flushes, you do the final elaspirates, and you get those diagnoses. And heartbreaking for the guys that own those dogs. Absolutely.

What do you recommend, Brendan, on that note? So what's the top 2 or 3 Yeah, right, definitely.

You know, they should be getting at least an ultrasound of the urinary tract and a sample of the urine from the bladder to be tested and checked at this point if they've not been having success with those other natural anti-leaking remedies. Definitely look at that. The other thing to think about back problems, you know, weakness in the nerves coming out of the back. Okay, so if they're an older animal, they've maybe had a back injury, they may need a chiropractic adjustment. May make a massive difference to that dog's continence. But think about that's the other input to that bladder strength.

And to that end, I would say chiropractic, osteopathy, and acupuncture can be very useful, kind of just thinking outside realm. Herbs and homeopathics, saw palmetto can be useful.

I was taking it that they've probably got that in that two remedies that they've, you know, possibly used there.

Possibly not, possibly not the right, right, right levels. Yeah, who knows. But yeah, there's a few things you can do there. So any other questions?

Back problems that cause urinary incontinence, and the problem is cauda equina syndrome. There you go.

Yeah, cauda equina syndrome.

Okay, very cool. It sounds like a horse. I've got a cool one here that struck my—

that's the bit that comes out the bottom of the spine. Looks like—

all right, actually, I broke it. I cracked my— this has nothing to do with the Q&A, but, uh, it's a funny story, so I'm going to tell you guys because it's worth it. What time is it now? We've got time. Listen, so I used to— I was on bikes, motorbikes, and, um, I was in a nasty crash where a taxi hit me from behind. I was parked, he didn't see and I went up over the car and came down on my back, and I woke up and there's people around me, and, um, it turned out I'd cracked my sacrum, which is the bone just above your tailbone. Sore dose for the old bottom. Anyway, so up I go into hospital anyway, and I'm sitting there on cushions, and you've gone and you've had a scan on your back to make sure you're okay, and you're waiting for, uh, the doctor to come back. And I'm in the A&E, and people look at me, and then they kind of look up, and they kind of walk off, and then they look at me and they look up They walk off and they were doing this for like 2 hours. I was sitting on all these cushions and I just thought, yeah, it's because I'm sitting on cushions and my ass is sore that they're just laughing at me. But it turns out I was sitting right underneath my own X-ray and so it was just a picture of like, like I was just sitting under my— you just see like my booty was there. That's like pointing at the cameras. Well, I must say it was a very unfriendly pose.

Was it the smile that gave it away?

It was clearly the guy sitting on the cushions underneath the pictures. Why would you put me there? So anyway, that went on for 2 hours. So that was, that was the Anyway, so my question that I really liked here was very simple. Can you, do you feed dogs raw veggies? Not can you, but do you feed dogs raw veggies? Guys, what are your opinions on feeding raw veggies to dogs?

You go first.

I would say, yeah, absolutely. Why shouldn't they be raw? Probably in my view, better fermented to break down some of the cellular material to release some of the brilliant nutrients that are within those. You know, you've got to think of all of those constituents which are often associated with the colors of the plants as well, which will add as antioxidants to the system. I think blended, I'd prefer, because again, it helps to break down those walls. They don't have any way of grinding up that plant material, so if you feed it in chunks, it's going to go through in chunks. There is no extensive part of the gut to ferment that into pieces, so all it'll end up doing is colorizing the little bits of poo in chunks. So blend it, ferment it, use good varied, you know, greens and that side of things. Low starch would be brilliant. Yeah, that, that'd be my thing for veg.

My take on that would be just make the emphasis on greens. One of my favorites is cavolo nero. You know, the really wrinkly stuff that looks like your pancreas. Yeah, very, very, very good. But also just anything that's seasonal and green. Fantastic. Spring greens, whatever. Keep it cheap. These things are top and tippy in the supermarket. Go green, green, green is my thought. Conor, where are you on that?

Yeah, I think what Brian's alluding to there is bang on. I think since doing all that bloat stuff and spending a while on that, you know, we know now that bloat is gas coming up from the intestines. It's not air in through the mouth, it's not aerophagia. And so I can't help now but wonder that raw veggies and fiber and stuff kind of can create a little bit of a digestive issue for dogs. And I worry about making dogs, deep-chested dogs, far too much. I worry about bloat gas. And while that does seem to be soluble fiber, I think raw veggies probably adds more to that than we need. So look, that's probably overthinking it, but I've now moved a little bit away from raw veggies. And same thing Bren is saying, fermented or a little bit cooked. I think even if you blend veggies, you're misunderstanding about how many plant cells are in there. You've broken through some of the plant cells and given the dog some access to the goodies. But raw veggies, very difficult for a dog to digest even when it's broken up. And so as Bren was saying, you're just coloring the dog's poo for a lot of the time. Still be very poor digestion, raw veggies. So I tend to do a little light cooked veggies. So lightly cooking is fine, particularly if you only use a tiny bit of water and give that water as well, because when that water colors, that's the good stuff. That's your B complex. When you're cooking out your dark greens, first thing to go straight into the water. But if you drink the water, you get all the B complex back. It doesn't go into the air. So if you're going to do your cooking, a little bit of steaming and using that in a mush in your dog's, blitzing that up.

Not my choice, but Steve's perfect.

Yeah, and they're fermented. So Ben's totally talked me into— we did a show on fermented veg. Did we do that show eventually, or is it just purely— we did. Yeah, so fermented veg, I'm totally, I'm a total convert now. So I get it now, but that's breaking down the plant fiber and giving the dog access to the goodies inside, but also all the byproducts from the bacteria doing their thing. They produce cool stuff. So the dog gets all that in one meal. So a little bit of fermented veg, do your own fermenting. It's really easy. It's very rewarding. There's a smug satisfaction in preparing the stuff yourself and you can just bung anything into the ferment, your seeds and your bits of veg and even a tiny bit of your blueberry powder, which I'm buying in from Scandinavia at the moment. Very posh, picked from the wild forest of Scandinavia.

Are you using that Nordic Organic?

Yeah, yeah. But there's the Vuce or something was the company I bought it from, but picked from a wild forest. And I thought, imagine the polyphenols in that compared to these tasteless things I'm getting from a greenhouse in some hot country. So yeah, so yeah, that's where I am on the raw veggies. I'm 50/50. I kind of— I probably will. I don't think about it, but I like to process it a bit first. What else have you got, Nick? Have you got anything else?

I got here, I'm just having a look. I just, just randomly picking these out from our patrons. Do you think a vet school would be less likely to accept somebody who is pro-raw and wants to become vet nurse. I'm currently doing level 3, so won't be there for a few years yet. Hopefully things will improve. I'm super anxious person. Even in class the other week when we did a raw versus non-raw debate, it was 1 to 22 of against raw. I presume nobody knew anything about raw except this wonderful Patreon person. So what do you think?

I think so. Two, two factors. There's a little bit of social proof that goes on. And what happens is that people that don't know how to explain things or don't or fear something will get round any scientific debate purely by ridiculing it and getting everybody else to ridicule it alongside them. You just have to rise above that, ignore it, don't enter into that in those environments. They do it about all sorts of complementary medicine through, you know, vet school. I think you glean from that course all of the conventional information and actually stand back and look at the scientific bias. That is what you glean from those, you know, environments so that you can understand when you're actually looking at research how to actually assimilate that information in an open and, you know, a way that will give you a bit more clarity in your own thoughts. You know, it's not about becoming a clone of some AI in a veterinary university. It's about learning so that you can go forth and actually help animals under your care. So I would say don't be fearful of what you currently do. I think go forth and actually, yeah, if it gets you through for that qualification and gets you to that endpoint, go for it. Absolutely go for it.

I'd add to that too, and I hate to blow smoke where smoke shouldn't be blown, but get Conor's book, read that, just learn that word for word. Will do you pretty good. And also the naughty boy Habib and Dr. the lovely Karen Becker— I don't know how she puts up with him— their book, The Forever Dog, is really good. That will set you in really great stead. And there's solid science behind those, so you can't argue with that. People will give you an opinion, but opinions are like noses— everyone's got one. Yeah. So just keep— stick to the science would be my recommendation. And, you know, speak your truth quietly and clearly, and if they don't want to listen to it, walk away.

Yeah, I like that, speak your truth as well. I wouldn't back away from it completely, but as the two of you have said, you're not going to get there by standing up and trying to debate them because they are not going to bring science to the table. That is not on offer for you. So while you want to say 'But look at this, look at the evidence,' or 'Where is your single study showing complete dry food outcompeted a biologically appropriate group of dogs, biologically appropriately fed group of dogs?' It doesn't matter what you say, it just will be on to the next thing, but it's dangerous. So it's impossible to debate these points, believe me. I spent 10 years banging my head off many a wall, and now I'm far more productive just saying, 'Look, if you want to ask me a question, I'll answer it.' But other than that, you will find your click they're training you to be a scientist, really, and you've got a question. And so fair play that you, you're skeptical enough to ask questions and not accept everything that is fed to you in college, because we do come out of college thinking we know an awful lot when really you've just dusted the very top of this, of the discipline you want to get into. So well done for questioning. But, you know, and they're not going to agree with you at the moment, but there's a hockey stick effect happening, guys. You can feel this. There's people jumping to rob by the I mean, with this book again, the Forever Dog, bloody hell, they'd be better to pay us for this. But, um, with that, with that book out and with the sheer— like, they're in every country, topping lists in every country. Think of the amount of people that are reading and going, oh, I don't have to feed kibble every day. So the, the bottom line of that book, for if you haven't bought it, then you'll be like, you know, putting just a little bit of stuff on the bowl, just get them hooked, like giving them a little bit of crack. And, uh, that's the way to get them going. And I think that will really change things.

I think this could be their last little push that the movement needs before it becomes, you know, and avoid thinking that the vociferous percentage that say out there saying they're so anti-raw are the majority. There are so many people that I come across in day-to-day life in the veterinary industry, nurses and vets, that are quietly just saying, oh, it's great, isn't it? I feed raw. You know, number of reps that are out there feeding raw to their pets the number of vets and nurses that you come across, yeah, I feed raw, I just don't make a big fuss about it because, you know, I totally get I don't want to feed an ultra-high processed food. So, you know, there are loads of people out there that are doing just as you guys are doing out there following us, you know, that are feeding raw and quite happy with it. So don't ever get put off. And universities, they are not the font of all knowledge. They are there to teach you how to learn, how to think. Yeah, otherwise, you know, what would be the point in going to university? Because there should be somebody who knows it all already.

Yeah, yeah.

Maudie Lambert, who's a big, uh, a big friend of the Raw Pet Medics, uh, she is saying a very good idea for all, uh, vet nurses-to-be, vet students-to-be, is to join the Raw Feeding Veterinary Society. And I think that's a brilliant idea. I don't think we promote the Raw Feeding Veterinary Society enough, boys. I think mention it on a regular basis. And they're, they're having a conference as well. Yeah, is it the 6th of November? 6th of November, guys. Just go to the website.

It's online. Yeah, we've got a link on our, on our, on our Facebook page, so you can find that link through.

So you can sit at home with your dogs and be entertained and delighted and intrigued by all the, all the speakers. The topic is, is it better to formulate diets, you know, how many milligrams of copper and what have you, or is it better to ratio feed, which is a bit of this and a bit of that, off we go.

Create.

Very interesting.

Create or formulate.

Yeah, create or formulate. Ah, that's very— yeah, that sounds lovely and musical. I had a question there, but we've done it a lot, but two different people, two similar sort of questions. Very itchy dog. Let's just shorten the answers, guys, because we've done each an awful lot. So your top 3 tips for itch. Guys, what's your top 3 things to tell this person to try?

Raw food, fish oils. Oh, just lost the light. Raw food, fish oils, and quercetin. Avoid wheat, beef, and chicken to start with. Yeah, you might be fine on those, but avoid those to start with. Brent, what about you?

So I'm going to go for 3 different ones, not because I think Nick's wrong. I think Nick is absolutely right. And those would be 3 starters, but I've got extras. And I would say if you've got a very yeasty dog, consider apple cider vinegar into the diet and also topically, because that can massively balance what's going on. I think Luka is also really useful. That's a probiotic spray that you can find out there. Topically, Brandon? Topically for the Luka? Okay, but both internally and topically for the apple cider vinegar, find really useful. Okay, and then last but not least, I'm gonna throw a bit of a curveball in there with sulfur. I would say, you know, let's just consider if you want to consider, um, you know, for the biggest sort of crossover to help with itch— not very homeopathic, I know, in that but if you wanted a start point just to try and reset and get rid of all of the drug issues that your dog might have had thrown at it, etc., then homeopathic sulfur 30C twice daily for 5 days is not a bad start point.

How about you, Conor? Where would you go? Because you've got a sulfur soap.

Oh yeah, no, I had— there's a cracking product called Sowa Plus Itch Be Gone. I think it's a Scandinavian product, but it's for horses. I was talking to a racehorse breeder and he was showing me this big yellow bar and he said, I use it on the dogs. I just said, oh, I've never heard of it. I talked to the pet shops, they all have heard of it. So Sowa Itch Be Gone, it's sulfur-based. You can look at the other ingredients and you think that might help too, but it's the sulfur. But a quick Google reveals sulfur is incredibly effective for itch. So yeah, I think that's it in my opinion. So my, my 3 will be like they're great if you've got an issue. Same thing Nick said, go for raw diet. And like Nick said, leave out, leave away chicken and beef. I would go as good as I can, go to a nice organic meat he hasn't had before, just plain. I would stick to— this is where I would go into my single proteins because I want to find out what's working and what's not. I would go single protein turkey, single protein pork, single protein venison, whatever, couple of weeks on each one just to make sure it's not a diet thing. Any raw will do, but this is the best way to do it. Then I would go— I would blame all inflammation on the gut because it's really, uh, I just blame everything on so I'd say canine probiotics, any real type will help, and a little bit of German chamomile to kind of anti-inflammation the gut. And I kind of do believe if you focus on the gut, generally these secondaries, I like to call them, can tend to kind of dissipate a great deal. And then if they're still around, then you've got your topical treatments that you can help with the dog. But in the meantime, if your dog has an itch, the stuff that Brown was saying and everything, of course. But that's how I would do the diet. Always the same advice: single proteins, bit of German chamomile, bit of probiotics, simple.

Sharon, that quantity for me, I'm gonna let Nick say for him, I would say a dessert spoonful a day, so about 15ml works out about right. So 5ml per 5kg, that works out on food, seems to be effective for me.

Nick? I would exactly emulate what Brendan's saying there. I'd say that the range is really big, and if they're really don't like it, you can put just a teaspoon in. But if they really, really go for it, you can put a dessert spoon or two. It's super safe, non-toxic, so you can't really go wrong. What I was going to say— somebody said I've actually forgotten what I was going to say, so I will shut up.

Go on, the next one that you wanted to ask, Conor. You had them.

I had various questions about raw dog foods. One person asked me, like, are 80/10/10— does anybody consider them complete anymore? And somebody else just put in the list there on the right-hand side, 80/10/10. What did she say? Sorry, I can't read my own writing here. Can it be too much for a spaniel? I think that's two very separate questions, but let's just stick with the first one because it's just nice in general. I like those sort of questions. Does anybody think 80/10/10 is complete? I mean, I think really the definition is, does anybody think there's such a word as complete? I mean, that's the issue. Where are we with 80/10/10s?

It's not, it's nowhere near complete. It's a great place to start though. It's basically, it's the animal part that you can buy very easily from any good supplier, and then you add your goodies to it, your seaweeds and your greens and your fish oil and your nuts, herbs, and seeds and what have you. So I think it's a great foundation.

I hope we're not being biased here about the conference that's about to come up and suggest we create, not formulate. But putting that to one side, let's listen to what the debate comes up with. I would agree, yeah, great start point maybe, but I love variation. I think, you know, to give a dog dog the ability to have firmer stools one day than another. They don't always have to be rock solid, I don't think. And I do find that some dogs— well, they're all individual, so some dogs will get super firm, you know, almost that it's just passing out in crumbles on that 80/10/10, and others, you know, will cope with it perfectly fine. So you have to adapt the diet to your individual dog, and that's, I You know, one of the big problems with anybody claiming completeness in any diet is, no, that's maybe for one dog that you've designed it around, but what about the next dog that comes along? And then the next dog? You haven't individualized it for their needs. And that's why I would say it's better to create for those that are in front of you than necessarily formulate and hope that it's going to be panacea for everything.

Yeah, okay, cool. I've got, I've got a two-for-one here. There's a question that's come up about, is the UK— is there a UK alternative to Gene Dodd's Saliva NutriScan test for food? And somebody else from Patreon is asking, can we test to see if our dogs are deficient with any minerals or nutrients or unbalanced in in any way. Is there anything decent in the UK or is Gene Gerald's Nutriscan the only worth the way worth going? Either of you guys.

All of those tests, I would say at best are a guide, at worst are misleading, not because of the quality of the test. And Nutriscan is brilliant in its quality, in my view. But the, the issue that comes to me is the limitation in the number of things that they test for. So you're making an assumption that the 10 to 15 foods, you know, that they may test for in those, those fairly expensive tests, let's face it, are going to be, if they're positive, the only thing in that dog's diet that's going to be positive, or if they're negative, that you haven't actually just come across one of the thousands of things that could be found in dogs' foods that actually is positive, but it just doesn't happen to be on that test. So don't discount them being food intolerant or food insensitive or hypoallergenic or anything like that if they're a negative test, because you just may not have tested for the one thing that they're exposed to.

And you can do these tests in the UK. If you talk to your vet, they can take blood, they send it off to one of the labs, IDEXX or wherever, or Evacto, who we use. But it's not that reliable a test. For example, the IgG could be just that you've been eating fish for the last month and therefore you've got a higher IgG level because of, because of exposure, not reaction. Yeah.

Dr. Conor Brady did a study there a few years ago, award-winning study, where he did patch tests and blood work on dogs that they knew were sensitive to proteins, 20 dogs they knew were sensitive proteins, and the patchwork, if it identified an issue, so that's where they actually prick the dog, you know, and you can see it as a little mosaic on the dog's side, if it identified an issue, it was only 80% right, okay, because other things could be affecting the dog in that situation. But if the dog didn't react when there was a patchwork, it was very effective. So if there was no reaction when they pricked the dog— but who wants to do patch tests on dogs? Looks a little bit tough for the dog. But what they really showed was the blood work is so inaccurate, guys. Like, it's— you're either food intolerant or not. I'm jumping out of the plane, have I a parachute or have I not? It's not enough that it's like— I think the blood work was 30% accurate if they identified an issue with the protein. It was 30% right in these dogs. That's not good enough, up to 80% if they didn't identify it. In other words, there was great room for maneuver. They couldn't tell you definitely what was going on. The only simple way, if it's food intolerance related, is to do your exclusion diet. It's simple, it's definitive, it's cheap and nutritious, and just make your way up, up, up, up, up through your single protein, simple single protein raw diets. That's the way to find about food intolerance. And you'll find out that you'll see that a lot of the environmental challenges the dog was suffering, these pollen allergies and dust mite allergies that that pull up in these tests all the time, you'll find that when you get the diet right or the gut right, that these become fine for the dog. It's like his immune system is back up and fighting fit and these everyday challenges are no problem. That's the great thing about these intolerances. It's not like allergies that it's a genetic mishap and they're very hard. You can't, you live with them, don't you? It's very, you can do immunotherapy, but you know, you're stuck with this genetic mess up. Whereas an intolerance pops up for a reason and the good news is you can put them back in the box. To a large extent. So, um, yeah, I'm the same, exactly what Brendan said. At best they're a guide, at worst they're misleading, and they just shoot your confidence as well. You look at this NASA-like reading and go, oh Jesus, this is every meat on the planet, you know. So, hmm, I don't know what to think about it.

Things about mast cell sensitization and other things that are going on in those— that whole mix of, of things that you were talking about as well, I think I think some of those blood results as well can vary depending on the quality of the assay, you know, as to how accurate they were and also who's reading them. But very interestingly, this comment by Annie Mac just with regards to hair tests, you know, this is obvious. This is usually down to what we call a bioresonance test. So there's no other great shakes about this. It is looking at the energetic of that animal's results to work out what's there. And that can be down to how that's read. You know, if you've got somebody who just reads off a list that the computer spits out and misreads it, then yes, there'll be exposures in there. There'll be all sorts of things that will act about bioresonance which will be totally misleading. And you get what you pay for. You know, if you pay £60 for a hair test you'll get £60 worth of advice. And I think that's, you know, in the grand scheme of things for these sort of things, not really great for, you know, working out what's going to be great for your dog's allergies, etc.

Yeah, guys, what was that question that Aston had? Let's not not answer that question or she'll kill us. Aston asked