RawPetMedics Feline Fridays

I really think that was almost coordinated.

Yes, tell me about it.

Hey buddy, I love it when we do this. Hi everyone, it's great to see you all. This month we're talking all about feline obesity, weight management, how we can control these little things. Big shout out to all of those joining us from Dr. Judy Morgan's page. I know this week you've probably been inundated with stuff about flea and tick controls, some great information out there. Have a little look, really informative if you want to know about how to control environmental sort of larval stages, etc., using nematodes. I was really interested in that the other day, but some great stuff, so keep watching. But we're breaking away over in the UK and Europe to talk a little bit about obesity and weight management because we looked at this a few months back that we said we needed to talk about it, and everybody's on the back end of their Easter eggs gorging and all the rest of it, uh, that they will be, um, now thinking about how to get the pounds back off ready for the summer. Okay, um, not going to start talking about beach bods, uh, because it's, it's just not going to happen for me anyway. Oh, Julie, I know Julianne's got so many things, so she's gonna pull out the cupboard almost.

I don't know what you mean. I am speaking innocent, thank you very much. I just don't want to picture you with a beach bod. No offense.

Wow.

Back to the cats, Brendan.

I never, never presumed you'd left them anyway. So, um, if you want to know a little bit more about what we do, you want to support us, please do come along to our Patreon page as well. Um, that's patreon.com/rawpetmedics. I can, uh, sponsor us for the price of a cup of coffee, um, and join information on there. There is, uh, lots of stuff that you'll get on our Facebook Lives if you want them to appear live in your Facebook stream, then please just like and follow our page @RawPetMedics on Facebook, and we will appear in your timeline whenever you want us, even on catch-up. So that's great. So shall we crack on? What do you want to know about obesity? If you've got any questions, please do put them in the questions. We are seeing your comments live at this point in time, and we will come back and answer some of those 2. So please do keep posting any questions there. Julianne, you always are great to start us off on these. What's your particular thing that gets you about our overweight feline friends?

I guess for me, like, the obesity, sometimes it can be a surprise, you know, like you don't realize that it's there. So, and by that I say because I've had personal experience, like Pickle became obese and I didn't even really realize it. So we got her from the shelter. She was so skinny and so scrawny. She had sores on her ears. She'd been stray for months. And I, I'm a feeder, right? I should have a family of 6, the amount that I cook per meal. My free— I've got a freezer full of, like, you know, batches and things and leftovers. So when we got her, I would— I didn't know better at the time, but I would free feed dry food, and as soon as the bowl was anywhere near empty, I would top it up because that's what I thought that you fed. This was 15 years ago, can I just say, 15 years ago. And also it was, you know, any food, just eat, just eat, just eat, you know. And one day we went to the vets for a checkup and I was told she was obese, and I nearly fell on the floor. Like, I'm like, what do you mean? She's just cuddly, you know. She's just round, like, you know, aren't we all a little bit at the time? Yeah. So it kind of crept up on me. And I think it's important for us to remember that it's not, you know, it doesn't happen sometimes by, like, on purpose, you know, and we sometimes aren't aware of it until someone else shows us. I think that is something that when it comes to obesity for me, we promptly switched her diet and things, you know, sadly for us, it led to diabetes, which obviously we talked about before. So, yeah, I mean, now, like, I, I'm, I'm almost like the opposite with Leo and baby Max. Every time they come in, I'm like, how's your tummy feeling? How you feeling when I lift you up? You know, what's the weight at the vets? I've read it in my book. So, you know, I'm all over it now. But sometimes it's a shocker. Sometimes you don't realize it's there, you know, and that's something I think we should start with.

Yeah, I think it's that level of normalization, is it? What is a normal body condition score? So, and I think really that's probably where I would start. Amaya, do you want to run us through how you would sort of assess a body condition score of a cat?

Yeah.

Okay. Well, one thing I would like to say about this, not knowing and noticing when you have a fat cat is also about the food that you choose, right? Because I noticed that cats fed with kibble usually have the round tummy and then they're very thin in their thighs. And when you get, when you get a cat that eats another type of food, the wet food especially, and raw food, they kind of get thin in the tummy and then they get really big thighs and just like a wild cat. Well, right. So I noticed that, and that's what actually made my, my own shift on how, how to approach body condition, because sometimes you say, okay, I have to feel the ribs, right? I have to have this sensation. And sometimes, you know, I noticed that the cat was fat in the belly, but, you know, there wasn't enough muscle. Right. So that was confusing as well for me because when I tried to, as a vet, when you read all this body conditions that, you know, you have different stages and you can, you have to look at their bone structure and see if you can feel it or not feel it at all or overfeel it. I don't know if that's the correct way to say it. It's, those things are It can be confusing if your food choice is, you know, it might change the shape of the size of the cat as well. Right. And then we have the internet that shows us fat cats as influencers. And that's nice. They say, oh, it's nice, it's chubby and whatever. And no, that's not healthy. And there's a lot of things to go around behind that.

Yeah. So it's really interesting you say that about different types of fat. I mean, we see this in humans too. Okay. And certainly propensity to disease, especially when we're talking about cancers and heart disease and, you know, inflammatory processes and diabetes. So type 2 diabetes that occurs in people. So insulin resistance, you're having visceral fat. Okay, so that abdominal fat is particularly bad for you. And, you know, we're going to touch on type 2 diabetes today. I think we should. Okay. It's really important. We've talked before about it, but it's really important that we talk about that. I think we're going to talk about calories in, calories out and where we get calories from. And I know, thank you, David, for sharing with us what's happening with your cat. We're going to talk about that in a moment. But I think what I would say is, look, as a general rule of thumb, I've got to simplify for the 80% of cat owners out there that are going to want to know about, well, how do I know if my cat is creeping above the norm or not? And what Amaya was talking about is that general sort of feel of the bone structure, etc. I would say for me, I would still stick to if you feel about a third of the way down the rib cage with your fingertips, okay? If you can feel that ribs as like the bones in your hand through the back by rubbing across, if it feels the same, because obviously some of our cats are really fluffy, aren't they, Amaya? You know, but if you can feel that, feel that as if that's That's pretty much the ideal. Okay. Now there's two scoring systems. There's a 1 to 5. There's a 1 to 9. Pretty much. Let's go for the 1 to 9. Okay. The 5 mark is the halfway mark, and that's what they would class as ideal. Now, some people that look up wildcats would actually say that 4 is ideal. So slightly slimmer. Okay. But we'll go for now that 5 is the norm. That is a 5. Okay. That is getting on for 9. Okay. So that's the sort of fatter. Okay.

Interesting. This is fascinating.

And then, and then if you clench your knuckles and you feel your knuckles, that's the 1. Okay. So that's where they're super thin. Okay. So if you do the knuckle side, Okay, and you can feel each rib individually. That's what we would class as a 1. So that gives you a very simplistic over the ribs. Now they should be tucked up underneath. Okay, they should be swept in between the rib cage and the pelvis. But their muscles over the back should mean that you can't feel the spinous processes that come out sideways. Okay, so that should be good muscles down the back either side because that's the muscles they run with. As Amaya was saying, really good thigh muscles, you know, all the muscle structure should be good within those for ideal weight. So it's all about, you know, reducing excess fat. Now they will vary month to month depending on activity. You know, some people will see them enjoying wintertime indoors, you know, on the heater, just sort of like sleeping around. It's dark too much of the time. They're just doing their thing and they will tend to put on a bit of weight over, over Christmas as the rest of us do. And, you know, but that can be on the outside. Okay. If their tummy remains swept up and they're thin, I'm not too worried about that. If they're piling on pounds everywhere, then there is a degree of can we control that with calories in versus calories out? But there are other things that are so important, as Amaya was saying, if you're bringing in different foods, if you're giving treats, as in, you know, treat biscuits, or you've, you've come to us, you're not feeding raw yet and you're feeding a high carbohydrate food, processed starch, can cause this lead-in to laying down fat. Now I'm going to try not to get too much more technical than that. So is there anything you wanted to ask, Julianne, having me just gone through about body condition scoring?

So, I mean, so if I— let's pretend like I don't, you know, I don't know the kind of the science or what to look for. Like, you've described it a little bit, but how do I do it? Like, how you've said you feel the knuckles in the hands and the ribs. What about like shoulders or, you know, like neck size? Are we looking at anything else in terms of the body or are we just looking at like the ribs, the tummy, and then that the kind of back end around the thighs? Is that the only thing that we're looking at for obesity or to like measure obesity?

So generally, yes, because the other stuff can be so varied. Okay. And actually those simplifying is always the best thing to do. So when it comes down to maybe in clinic measuring, they will do they will look at those signs that I've just said there, which are fairly easy, give you a body condition scoring, and then they will take measurements. And normally that is chest, abdomen, pelvis. Okay. They interestingly don't do a lot of neck size. Okay. And actually, you know, I went for one of these checks the other day. They literally wanted to know chest, waist and hips, and that was it.

That's like going to a swimming club. They advise you to do your measurements and to check what they are before you start to lose weight. Not that I would do that. One of the things I wanted to say is that also you mentioned about like seasons, you know, you said, you know, times of year. I think that is, that is important, you know, because that's, that's not just like Christmas. It's because it's, that's nature, isn't it? You know, even cats that were, that were feral, their weight would change. And, you know, even wild cats I wonder if you perhaps, Amaya, can talk anything about elements. So when we did the Holistic Cat Conference, Nayana talked about elements and, you know, I know very little about it, but that, you know, different cats will be different shapes. And I'm coming to you because you said about yours, you know, being really fluffy and a big cat. I never forget my gran's cat was like so long, he went the length of the cooker top and everybody was on at her saying, oh my God, he's so overweight, he needs to lose weight. Yet his paws were massive. Like he was a really long, a really big cat. Cat, and the number on the scales, she would tell the family and they would be really reactive about it, yet the vet was never concerned about his weight. So like, do different cats— is, you know, when we talk about healthy and body condition, does it matter about their Chinese element or their kind of like constitution? You know, can you talk a little bit about how that varies?

Well, I, I'm not an expert in the element side, but the thing is that I do look in the position. And if it's a big cat— and actually it was a challenge to have a Maine Coon because you always look, look at them and you see they're growing by, you know, by meter. I don't know, they're so huge. It's like suddenly I have a cat that, uh, occupies—

not a Maine Coon, that's a tiger.

Somebody, somebody, you know, didn't tell me this. And, and then you try to, you try to, uh, try to feel the ribs. And then you have a lot of hair and a lot of things, and, and it was quite a challenge to actually get, you know, uh, to see the, the weight that she had. So, uh, how, how did I manage is, uh, by, by brushing her. So once I got all the hair out and everything, I could see the body. And I always tried to feel the thighs and see how thick they are, they are, and how they grow, and the size of the paw, of course, the size the paw. And also knowing that he's a Maine Coon, that it's going to be huge, of course. Uh, but, uh, in, in regards of the season that you mentioned before, um, my cats actually eat less during the summer and eat a lot more during the winter. And this is something you can notice. Uh, I only notice it— I have never noticed it in, uh, in kibble when, when my cats were fed kibble. Um, I noticed this on raw food because I Suddenly, you know, they were hungry and they were asking me for more. And in the beginning I said, okay, but this is, you know, it's getting over the calories that you need for, for this season or for your day. And so I just allowed nature to go, you know, and say, okay, if you want more, just let's see if you can self-regulate. And, and they did. And actually you can see that, you know, they come a little bit more chubby, but it's not As Brendan said, it's not about, uh, in the tummy. It's that, you know, they get like fat everywhere, but a little bit just to, you know, like more, uh, I think for the— for them to keep warm. And then, uh, in the summer they get thin. They lose hair a lot and also they get thinner. So this is kind of, uh, what I notice. Um, and as, as the elements, as you said, as you mentioned the elements, I know some elements tend to be a little more heavy and others could be a little bit more light. But I never— I don't use too much of Chinese medicine for this. I only focus on a bit of the emotional side of things because we're going to get into that later on. A bit of the playtime that they have, the emotional, how they feel, the activity levels that they have, and to actually keep a routine all over the year depending on how they are, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So let's draw in then some of those factors because it's interesting. I've noticed a few people talking about, oh, they've, you know, they are seeing even on raw, you know, that their cats are gaining weight even if they cut food right down. And I would like to explore, and I was really interested in what you were saying, oh, they eat less in the summertime. Now, for me, I'd immediately say, well, mine do too, because they're out eating mice and birds and all sorts. But yours don't go out the house. I know coming from Madrid, it would have been terrible to let them out. Yeah. They might not have come back.

And Mallorca as well.

Yeah, right. So, um, you know, from a point of view of, uh, you know, if they're in a controlled environment, absolutely. You know, if they're doing less because of the heat, various things that might cause them to, to slow down a little bit. Um, I think for those that are on carbohydrate foods, look, the pathways are that excites effectively insulin release that insulin actually promotes the sugars to be changed into triglycerides within the liver and to excite the fat, so the adipose cells, to actually grow and lay down more fat. Okay, so it's one of those cycles that people often think, well, that's a sugar cycle, it's totally separate from the fat cycle, you know, their cholesterol levels, well, their triglycerides are actually directly related to sugar intake, not fat intake. So that's the first thing. So you don't eat more fat and then automatically become more fat in those circumstances. Now, something that's really interesting is if your raw food has a relatively low fat content but a relatively high protein content, if there's excess protein, the body will change that into sugars through a certain pathway called the pyruvate pathway. Getting a bit technical, sorry, I apologize now. Okay, but that is going to stimulate insulin release. Okay, so you will get fat deposition through excess protein. So do watch, you guys, if you're out there and you've changed and you've kept all of your meat super lean that you might find that they are putting on excess fat, okay, purely because they're not self-regulating in the same way. Most cats I find will self-regulate. They'll cope with that fat satiation sort of suppressing their appetite and they will switch down. And a lot of us don't necessarily give them the chance just to eat at will every single minute of the day because definitely we talked about this last summer, we won't leave food out through the day festering, you know, it will literally go out dawn and dusk, they're twilight feeders, so it's great to sort of match that behaviour and therefore we will be able to control their weight a little better. So do have a look, now I know David you've talked about hyperthyroidism, that's an interesting nuance to what's going on. We'll, we'll maybe touch on that because normally they would lose weight on any sort of food just because of their excesses. And it may be that you have to control their methimazole a little better because you may be actually inadvertently lowering their thyroid beyond what they should be lowered to, and that's allowing them to put weight on. But I would like to talk about stress. Because stress has an interesting factor on weight gain too. So, you know about the cortisol release, Julianne? Am I losing you?

No, no, I'm like, I'm, I'm, no, when we get into the emotional bit and behavior, I am right there. But right now I'm just like a sponge. So carry on.

Okay. I love to talk about this stuff. It's technical. I just don't know whether I'm losing people. So from a point of view of anything that drives our cortisol up. And this is one of the stress hormones that we'll see with sympathetic stress. And we're going to talk about that in a moment because that's things that can cause that behaviorally. But cortisol almost is the arch enemy of insulin in that it stops insulin working. So insulin is there to allow the cells to take up glucose. Cortisol blocks that. So what can happen is that if you're feeding excess carbs, the insulin is running away, trying to get higher and higher and higher to try and get that in. If you've got a super highly stressed animal that's releasing more and more cortisol, that's blocking that. So the insulin has to be more to get the cells to take up the glucose, and you end up in this horrible spiral of if you don't give them enough glucose in their diets, the insulin is blocked, it almost exhausts itself being able to try and get glucose up into the cells. So they become insulin resistant because of that high level of cortisol that gives us type 2 diabetes. Okay, so they're getting loads of triglycerides laid down and stuff. They're getting ketones and excessive amounts of glucose in their blood because of the diabolic metabolism that's going on. And therefore that is why we worry with fat animals that they can be a sign of type 2 diabetes that can lead to all sorts of other horrible diseases. So stress factors, we talked a little bit about this last month, are so important to note for if you're getting sudden weight changes think about the stress factors.

Yeah.

Okay.

And what I can add to that, to the stress levels, is that, well, yes, of course we can— we talked about anxiety, you know, but the— there are other things from the psychosomatic point of view that it's emotions that are behind it. And sometimes there are things that— here it's very common when you adopt a cat that has suffered, the background history that the cat had, you know, it makes him act and be in a certain way, you know, it creates the character and personality, uh, to survive. So those tools that the cat have also can promote, uh, obesity because the cat maybe wasn't fed enough, uh, wasn't, wasn't with his mother, and all the background history can promote this, uh, cortisol release sometimes and, and also promote this, this body shape as a protection. Right. So when you, when you are talking bio decoding or psychosomatic, fat means protecting myself from the environment, which is a way that you are not, you are not well, you cannot adapt, let's say. So you find ways to protect yourself. So there are small behaviors that you can look at when you have these problems, like maybe the cat is not fearful. Sometimes it can be, you know, they can just step in and be and pretend they're strong. Sometimes you can get— you have to see if you have other illnesses around it. If the cat is fat and, for example, has cystitis, or the cat has asthma, or the cat has allergies, or any other thing. My cat is destroying everything now in the front, all the trash that I have to take out. So that's— I'm hearing the noise there and I'm like, okay, that's good. Anyway, so, um, that, that's the thing. We have to look into the, uh, the behaviors and other illnesses that are— that anything that is happening in the cat, and also include that on your whatever treatment you use, diet and nutritional.

Yeah, so, and there is one element I know, Sarah-Jane, you've just talked about your cat also going out. For those— and I was going to mention this— the number of times that I have seen— sorry, I could just imagine the mayhem right now.

He's going through the rubbish like It's amongst all the rubbish and it's buried and it comes out. It was a white cat and now it's a black cat.

The good thing is paper. That's why I'm not rushing to look into it.

Sorry, Brendan, go on, you were talking about Sarah Jane.

So Sarah Jane, if your cat goes out and they may well hunt, just remember the number of times that we know that cats actually visit neighbors, and those neighbors won't know that they're on Raw, and they will suddenly start feeding them. Just what, me?

She's playing with a bag.

So there's often in foods, they place attractants because let's face it, little blocks of cardboard aren't that tasty to the normal carnivore. So they have to artificially heighten the sensation for those foods. And they will do that with attractants such as certain amino acid mixes, certain oils, certain sort of chemical additives to those. And they can be quite addictive. One of my colleagues calls them cat crack. Okay, you know, they literally are something that will attract them in. So you can be as holistic as you like. You can really be encouraging your cat to eat the most natural of diets, and what you'll end up with is a cat that keeps sneaking 3 doors down and helping themselves to the little bit of cat food that is put out. So just be aware, even if they're putting food out for the foxes, you know, that hedgehogs, this sort of stuff, or hedgehogs, you know, that they're going off and eating this stuff. So just, you know, be aware of that. I'm fortunate that mine are pretty much solid raw, so if I don't give them enough, they'll be out hunting, you know, and they drag back in the mice, the rats, the rabbit babies, the, you know, whatever it is, and chomp down and They've learned not to bring them back too close, otherwise the dogs finish them off.

Uh, but you're so aware of baby Max because I came down the stairs the other day to a headless and a footless mouse. And the good bit, so to speak, I was like, buddy, now, you know, like, I'm glad you got the memo of like dead through the door or not at all because I don't want to keep chasing them around the front room and it's 4 o'clock in the morning. So we've got that bit done. But I'm like, you know, if you want to eat it, like Eat the whole— eat a bit more. And then the other day he just licked the fur off half the side of it. It was fascinating, but gross.

Obviously needs the fiber.

That's all I'm thinking.

That's exactly what I said. The sinews, the bits of bony stuff, the skin. That's what he wants. And he probably needs some omega supplementation because he's gone for the brain of the mouse, which is great DHA, EPA. So he needs a bit more fiber supplementation and these omega-3s. Yeah, there you go.

Done.

That's like something really good. You know, this, this was your mention now that the cat also is choosing his food. It brings me to the idea of what do you feed during the winter and during the summer? Because this is something I do. Um, what, what sorts of proteins you use in the winter and what are those you use in the, in the summer, depending also on— well, I, I just let them choose. But usually you get that in the winter, they will eat more warm proteins. And this is actually from Chinese medicine. And in the summer, they will eat a little, they will not eat as well as they would eat in the winter, the warm proteins, and they would like more cold. So this is something interesting as well, that if you, if you would like to choose and you want to create variety with your cats, if you're feeding raw, try to use different sources of proteins and don't worry if, you know, at a certain point of the year they are not liking that protein in particular and look for it and say, okay, I'll just, you know, and also don't just feed them warm food in the winter and cold food in the summer because, you know, they make really random choices. And as Julie Ann's cats do, are, you know, having brain and fur, you can also, you can also learn from what they choose to eat. And, and the other thing is, well, you can do this.

There's a website for that. Because a good friend of mine, Nikki Camack, told me.

I know I'm on that group too.

Okay, people, let's move it on.

But, uh, but if you, if you let them, if you let them choose, uh, you can learn a lot from that. But also keep in mind that if the cat is anxious or suffers any sort of anxiety, maybe this selection, it won't be working as good as you expect. So, you know, keep in mind that you will have to work the stress levels and the anxiety, and then teach them and take time to let themselves select whatever they want.

Yeah, I think that's a really important point. Like, we talk about this— one of the myths, I think, not maybe myths, but one of the kind of stereotypes that really gets my back up is when people say, oh, cats are fussy eaters. You know, if we think about everything that impacts a cat, and how wise their bodies are. You know, they're not fussy eaters. They're particular because they know what they need to thrive. And if it's not going to make them thrive, they're unlikely to eat it. Now, obviously, there are exceptions to that rule when things are coated in sugar and they're addicted, etc. But, you know, people come to me and say, oh, my cat's a fussy eater. I'm like, really? What? So let's look at that. You know, what's going on? You know, like we've talked about before and Brendan says, you know, feeding the bookcase. That always sticks in my mind, you know, feed up on a height and, you know, are they somewhere where they can look around them? You know, what do they need? What— how do they feel safe when they're eating? Like, it's not just a question of picking a protein and putting it down. You've got to understand the emotional needs of your cat when it comes to food and feeding time. You know, I think that's also something that's really important because I don't perceive cats as fussy. When my boys are a bit let's say wonky with food. We've just gone through 2 weeks of it and I'm making notes. We've almost got a cycle going on. You know, I'm like, right, okay, well, let's look at my stress levels and anxiety. You know, we've just had an instance this weekend. My stress has been quite high. I'm like, okay, well, that's no wonder there then. And then, you know, we look at the time of day, the sleep pattern of everybody. I try to look at things using a holistic approach rather than just thinking, oh, well, Leo's just not having rabbit right now. You know, well, he's just being fussy. Because that puts almost like blame onto him. And actually, like, we're the guardians, you know, we have a duty of care to do the best we can for them. So what can we change? What can we support them with? What needs do they have? You know, I mean, Brenda, when people come into the clinic and you see they've got an obese cat, you know, we're talking about obesity, how do you deal with that? Because it's not just a question of saying like either change the food or change the diet. Do you bring in those other elements about, you know, asking whether the cat is how it's eating and the human side of things. Is that something you bring up?

Yeah, so multi-cat households, really important part. So you've got to think about, are they feeding at a low level? And so if you end up with, yeah, we feed them in the kitchen, they've, you know, got a couple of bowls that they share, and, you know, we just put the food down as and when, and, you know, there's these two cats that come in and seem to scoff the lot in one go. Usually that's the element that I will say, look, that's a stress-eat pattern, okay? And sometimes those cats will actually scoff it and they'll even be sick shortly afterwards, you know, as they've taken on a huge amount, you know, because you've put enough in for all 4 cats and they've decided to take out for 2 of them in one go. And I would say, look, think more about that bookcase scenario, you know, giving them, you know, feeding stations which are separate height, you know, they've got some protection from others, they get used to being fed in those environments. That can be really useful. That also reduces their stress levels that you may not perceive as stress, but actually, you know, reducing their cortisol, you know, from that feeding time scenario. So do that. Look at which brands you're using. Yeah, for those people worried, well, I'm giving a good mix of different proteins. It's not about just the— you know, when I talked about high protein, it was about the variety of protein either. It's just the fact that you're giving maybe lean proteins within that and you've got to think about some of the fattier meats and sort of rabbits, really lean, you know, some of the chicken can be quite lean, especially if you're making it yourself and you're using sort of breast meat to make up those foods. They're relatively high protein levels with low fats. Don't trim off the fat in this circumstance. I would leave the fat there for them to choose to eat or not. In those circumstances, give them that. But definitely look at that whole view, what's happening within their environment first, what stresses are there. Then you're into ruling out other diseases and medications. Okay, so Are they on steroids because of a skin condition? Are they on— so we used to have quite a lot of cats which were on various hormones for suppressing seasons and things like that, you know, as an alternate way to looking at season control rather than pregnancy, rather than necessarily neutering, but also because some of those sex hormones were used for skin diseases. And they are renowned for causing weight gain. Looking at, you know, are— do they have any other diseases ongoing which are, you know, type 2 diabetes, chronic inflammation going on, immune-mediated disease, you know, skin problems which aren't necessarily being addressed, so chronic allergies, etc., into then are some of the treatments for the conditions like hyperthyroidism, are they going excessive? How often are you getting those monitor bloods done for your cat on hyperthyroid medication? And yes, there are, David, some alternates with holistic care that we use to help control that symptoms and reduce your need for some of those conventional medicines. And that can be really useful for you where you're having problems with fluctuating weights and side effects of excessive medication. But that all becomes a huge sort of wealth of information that we then have to work with to coming down and reducing their weight. And it isn't as simple as just keep reducing. If you reduce and reduce and reduce, the amount they're eating, what you actually do is you can downregulate their requirement, their metabolic need, by up to two-thirds. So whereas a classic human, you'd be looking at 1,500 calories a day. Okay. If you starve yourself, if you reduce your food intake to such a great degree, humans can downregulate their metabolism so they can need as little as 500 calories a day to maintain their brain cognizance, you know. And still, therefore, as soon as they go back to stopping that massive restriction of diet, boom, their metabolism thinks, oh, that's an excessive amount, and I'm going to start storing that because there's going to be another famine coming along. So, you know, cutting your amount you're feeding down and down because your cat's weight to, you know, 65 grams, yada yada yada, and going down and down is not what you should be doing. At that point, that should kick home that there's something going wrong with the hormonal controls. This whole thing is about the ghrelin, which is that drive to want more food. You know, is your leptin levels getting up to a level where they're getting satiated? So the brain is switching off the desire for for food. You know, all of these are interactive with insulin, with cortisol, as loads of more complex hormones. So you've got to look, if you're feeding a really small amount of food to your pet, and in this case for cats, and they're still gaining weight, there is a disconnect with those control mechanisms, and we need to start driving changes through other mechanisms. Gut flora, you knew I was going to talk about gut microbiome that comes into it. We know that you can change metabolism of animals purely and ourselves purely by changing the type of gut flora that you've got. So if you can remove some of those current gut flora and substitute them with those from a thin cat equivalent, okay, you can make the changes to your own cat where they'll start losing weight. Because the gut flora influence on the metabolism kicks in. We see this in experimental mice. That's been done repeatedly. You know, those papers are out there and published, so you can do that too. So gut flora can be really important.

Excellent. And what do you think about now that we are talking about this, the fat content of things, right? The kibble that comes for neutered cats or light or obesity, you know, weight management, all of this are really, you know, they try to control certain, you know, they add fiber to it. They add elements to satiate the animal. But in my experience, what I experienced with this is that cats tend to be more aggressive because their stomach, you know, they're not feeling satiated. They are feeling hungry. They are, you know, they have anxiety. They are suffering and they only get fiber and sugar that stimulates this behavior as well. And then we still have this belief that fat content is the thing that it's is making us fat, right? When it's something that actually promotes society, satiety.

So the— I know what you meant, and I'm sure everybody out there did too. I would not be able to hold this in Spanish. So, you know, so from a point of view of— it's really interesting because they look at the stretch receptors on the stomach as almost like that's the only way you're going to satisfy this animal. For dogs and cats, oh well, we'll just pack them out with fiber, we'll stick them with cardboard, they'll feel full for longer, therefore they won't need to eat as much. And that goes through as full fiber, they're not going to get as many sugars and stuff out of it, so therefore calorie intake is not going to be as great. A total myth. For cats because then you get into this whole thing of what's going on with the hormones within their system because they're looking for the fats, they're looking for other micronutrients within those diets. So they'll be out searching all sorts of other stuff to try and satiate those needs. And it's, you know, they're missing so much. If we can just actually get them to have a slower digest of whole carcass material. So having some bone material in there, some fur and sinew to digest, that actually— and I'm not just talking about hairballs, you know, sort of fluff side of things, we're talking about, you know, skin being ingested. All of that has a role to play in how it's digested through the stomach. All of the other micronutrients are in there, all of the omegas are in there. Getting that right is really important for satiety in cats. And it's interesting that actually it's those things that often will increase the leptin release within the body and truly give the hormonal satiety of what's what's happening. Now, this is a really interesting point. I love to bring this up because I'm working with some human nutritionists on, on these and the peptides that are now out there. So Ozempic, you may have heard of, for type 2 diabetics, that's been released in the UK under the NHS, is a peptide addition which gives artificial satiation. You know, there are lots of peptides. So these sort of release chemicals, if you like, which are very similar to hormones, the known hormones out there. It's that there's just a wealth of them now coming to market which will have these nuanced influences on how we metabolize, how we change the metabolism of our hormones, the metabolism of our energy, what we need to use. I'm sure down the line some of the nuances in what we eat will— and how that influences our natural release of those peptides is going to become more and more known. But right now, people are actually supplementing those peptides to artificially nudge our leptin levels up, to replace those other things that we would have been doing to get that metabolism right. Okay. And that can have impacts on cancer and all sorts of things going forward. So it's really exciting stuff. But right now, I think the most interesting thing is a lot of those diets, if anything, they will just end up putting the cat's metabolism into that starvation mode that I talked about earlier. And they will also not be fulfilling some of the other micronutrients. So you'll get the grumpy cat, okay, that is maybe having voluminous poos because of the amount of fiber that's coming through. And really, as soon as they transgress, they go out and start looking for other ways to fulfill their calorific and their nutrient needs. Boom, they suddenly will pack on loads of weight again as soon as you stop those satiety diets because their metabolism rate has been set at such a low point.

Yeah, it's heartbreaking really when you think about the fact that this, this is an option that is given to people to try to help their cats. You know, those diets, that one in particular, makes me think about models who eat cotton wool buds. You know, it's just to kind of like fake the body, you know, into thinking that there is you know, some form of food, i.e., energy in their body. Fuel, there's the word I'm looking for, you know. And as we said, cats are so wise, they will look and hunt for other things. So you might see them then starting to eat like toxic plants in the house because they're looking for other nutrients, aren't they? They're looking for other—

to support these other elements that they're not having through their diet, and they don't have anything else to choose, so they will choose the toxic plants, because that's what you normally have at home. Well, yeah, you don't know. And, and there's another thing, uh, when you also feed raw but you use too many, uh, lean meats, as chicken breast for example, you also get constipation. So that is the importance also with fiber. It's not only about the protein that you get. If the protein is too lean, it also doesn't allow the bowel to move properly. And I, I had many, many cases that, you know, they— oh, I switched to raw, and then you saw— you see that the diet and it doesn't have any fibers, any fat, anything else. And the cat stops eating that food and says he doesn't like raw. And then you add a bit of fiber, a bit of organs, a bit of, you know, make it a little more varied. And then suddenly they love the food. So, you know, we need to understand that it's not about, it's not only about feeding them as carnivores is actually understanding what a carnivore means and that they need fat and that fat also is a really good element to lose weight. And we have to change that belief that we have about fat.

Yeah. Fat being bad.

Yeah.

I mean, it's necessary, right? It's essential. I mean, what— Amaya, do you have any cat-friendly sources of fiber that we could share with people?

Yes. Well, I use, well, I use a lot of, well, now I'm into the fermented vegetables because there is a brand here that it's creating actually menus with fermented carrot. Yeah. It's amazing. Puro Menu. It's, they're creating fermentation and they're doing that now for dogs. But, you know, I just added a bit of taurine. I had to try it. So I just bought and adapted the food a little bit. But I wanted to see if my cats would eat any of those menus. And actually they loved it. They love fermentation, fermented foods. I tried before to use a bit of, how do you say, sauerkraut is the, or any other fermented foods. And yeah, sometimes it works, sometimes it didn't. So that's something you should try and start with very small amounts and then increase it if the cat allows you to. That's one. Okay, the other one—

not including spicy kimchi, people, because although that's fermented, that's not to be offered to cats. Let's just be clear. Spicy kimchi, as I say to these two, ah, ah, nope.

And then if they don't like vegetables, vegetables I usually offer them very made a puree or puree, like a very puree.

Yeah, yeah, mashed up.

Yeah, puree, mashed up. Yes. And then other things that I— once if that doesn't work, because sometimes cats don't like veggies, and what I use is psyllium husk. And also what I do with psyllium husk is I don't start with the dosage that they recommend. I always start lower and increase if needed, because I noticed that some cats actually react with very small amounts, and then you can increase it later on if needed. And the other one is flaxseed seeds, like also mashed up. And I know omega-3 from veggies is not the best source for cats, but I had very well results for constipation and digestive issues with flaxseeds. Um, and chia seeds.

Chia seeds are great too.

Yes, yeah, I've been trying those, but actually my favorites are flaxseeds because that's— it's like any constipated cat, it has worked on that, lubricates it through. And at the beginning I was a bit afraid to use them because it said that this omega-3 is not the best option, but it works so well that, yeah, I've been, I've been using them since.

I love, you know, I would always look at some of the seeds and even fermented seeds, you know, mixes because you can do that within the ferment is just to mimic what's within the, what's, what's within the stomachs of the mice and things like that that they would otherwise eat. And so, you know, some of that fermented seed and what fiber that brings. But don't forget, for our true carnivores, fiber comes in collagen of the skin. It comes in what's going on with the fur. You know, all of those other bits of the mouse, the tendons, the ligaments, the bone material even is a fiber source for carnivores. Added to which we can cheat with these fiber sources. I mean, VetPro does one which is, you know, effectively has those inulin, so chicory and some other fiber sources in there with the— what was it that you said earlier? It was the psyllium husk, you know, within the product mixed with some vitamin B granulated. It's got probiotic in there, so you can actually sprinkle them as small nuggets onto the raw food, and it gives them that fiber source if you're not out there willing to give little pinkies from the reptile shop for your cat to eat.

Yeah, he won't eat it.

I can see its eyes, Mum.

I can see his eyes looking at me.

And I'm sure that's the same for you guys out there. The number of people that say, I can't, I can't eat it if it's got eyes.

It's like, guys, I'm conscious we've only got a couple of minutes left. And, you know, some of the— I think we might have to consider doing an obesity part 2 because what we haven't covered is we've talked a lot about the science today and the mechanics in the body. And what we haven't covered, and you know I'm going to bring this up, is the emotional behavioral part. So if we have a cat that has been diagnosed or given the label of, or the attributes of, an overweight or an obese cat, then what? And we obviously haven't got time to discuss that now, but that is something I think we could consider supporting people with because there are— you briefly touched on it before, Brendan, about not just reducing the food, but I think there are— there is a bit more to expand on that. And also there is the mental the severe mental toll on changing cat's food in the attempts to help them lose weight. How do you support them emotionally? So I don't know what you guys think, but I would be up for part 2 next month so that we can build on this week today and we can give people then those actual tips and things that they can do moving forward. What do you think?

Yeah, we've got asthma next month. Don't forget. So we've got to deal with asthma. So, but yeah, so that the shift it on.

I want to talk about asthma. That means you've got 2 months planned. Very happy.

Well, in that case, biochemically, I will just say to people, look out there, leaky gut, creating an increased leaky gut is also a bit of an issue. So if you're giving those licky treats, I'm not going to go any further than that, or the other sort of things that are spoilers, or you might think are extra special bits for your cat, they can actually increase the leaky gut. That increases inflammation, that increases their propensity to have increased fat. Okay, so please think very carefully about the treats that you use. You know, try and use jerky treats or, you know, some of these other things that you can use. If you're going to use something to try and improve ketogenesis in your cat, Okay. To help get some of that weight down, then consider something that's just like a C8 oil. Okay. Because in coconut oil, the higher carbon chains, so the C10, C12s actually increase the leakiness of the gut. Okay. So that can be a problem. So when you're choosing oils to add, okay, for weight loss, don't just use normal coconut oil. Do look at the C8 specific, okay, medium-chain triglycerides.

Okay, just ended on a really beautiful science note there, Brendan. Yeah, actually, I got the science. You did. I was like, we're about to wrap up, you're like, one more thing.

Well, I know we can be all emotional intelligence next month.

That was great, look at you holding your breaths when you said that.

I was holding my heart.

Okay, yeah, you have two hearts.

No more body shaming, you know, telling me I'm holding my moobs. It's not.

You said it, not me. I went back to the beach bod.

Tell you what, it's gonna be shirtless next month.

Anyway, God help us. So we hope you've enjoyed this week, and, um, there was already comments saying part 2. Yes, so why vote? We do part 2 next month, and then we do Ask Mother month after.

Okay, let's do that.

And they want to add a bit of the aggression involved in obesity. Yeah, I've seen that a lot.

Yeah, yeah.

And vote for us if you like us so much. You can vote for, um, whether we increase the frequency. I think Dr. Judy's already asked would we do more, but you know, if you really like us so much, you need to share this post, you need to talk about it, you need to let us know yes, you'd want more, um, and I'll bully these two guys into, uh, helping out.

Yeah, like, we're so difficult.

Like, God, he always wants to talk about science. Let's do more so we can do emotional stuff and behavior stuff and energy stuff. Right, 2 minutes to go. You better wrap us up, Brendan.

No, it's great. Yes, thank you. Yeah, they'll be sweating like crazy on Dr. Judy, because they'll be, uh, waiting to post the next one. So thanks, guys, for all of you who've joined us today. Remember, if you want to help sponsor us and do more stuff and fly us out to Mallorca so we can join Amaya and do something live together, uh, then please— I'm joking— to please— although that would be really nice— uh, please come along to patreon.com/rawpopmedics. Uh, we will try and post even more information for you guys, and including some of those papers on what's good fiber for your cats. And join us there. Otherwise, look forward to seeing you next month. We have that sorted. Can you remember the date, Julianne?

26th of May.

26th of May. There you go. You see, she's a marvel.

It's good that she does.

I will divide people.

She's my emotional sanity. There we go. It's been great to see you all join us today. Thank you very much. Thank you, Dr. Amaya. Thank you, Julianne.

Thank you.

It's been a pleasure as always. I enjoy these Fridays so much.

Indeed. We'll see you next month, guys. Thank you for joining us. Have a good day, everyone.

Take care.

Take care.

Bye-bye.