RawPetMedics Feline Fridays: Kidney Disease 2

Hello everybody, greetings, fantastic to see you. Fantastic, we are here Tuesday the 11th of October and we're going to be interviewing Alan Bashforth who is one of the co-founders of Lucilin. He's agreed to give us some time today to dive deep into his product and antibiotics and antibiosis and where we stand with all of that stuff. Guys, have you come across Lucilin at all?

I haven't. The first time I came across— actually, I've heard of it around the edges because I actually haven't done a whole lot of research into this. Normally I want to be terribly prepared for everything, and this time I thought I had a quick glance at the website and I reminded myself when I saw the packaging, I said, I know that product, I know the idea of it. I heard people talking about it. But in the last 2 years, the name has come up a lot. Yeah, I know that label anywhere. And the nice cool blue purple bottle. Yeah, so I know people like it, and when we mentioned this was on, my page lights up. Love Lucilin, couldn't live without it, everybody's using it. And we're going to say Lucilin a lot, guys. This is not a sponsored kind of show. This guy was invited on, Alan was invited on because we want to chat to him, we want to talk about infection control from the, from the kind of a natural antibacterial side. And Alan is going to know more about that than most people, so he's been invited on so that, you know, you know, if his brand gets mentioned a thousand times, it's got nothing to do with anything but our own interest. So, so yeah, so people like— what about you, Bren? You use that in clinic?

Yeah, we have used it. We've used it for cleaning down door handles and everything else through COVID. We've done everything from just using it for wiping tabletops, cleaning wounds from horses all the way through to little tiny critters. Yeah. So lots of good things. We're going to talk about that later on. Guys, if you want more information as well, please do join us on patreon.com/RAWPETMEDICS. There's another bit on the side afterwards for you guys to enjoy. Thank you to all of those supporters of the Patreon site. It's brilliant and it enables us to do what we are doing tonight without needing sponsorship from individual companies. It allows us to choose discerningly the companies we want to bring on. So So that's that, guys. So I think we should crack on. I think what we should really do is introduce Alan. And Nick, I think I'm going to leave that to you.

Yeah, absolutely. Alan Bashforth, father, co-father of Lucilin. Welcome. How are you?

Very well, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for allowing me to talk to you guys on this thing.

That's amazing. Great. It's really great that you're here. Just a little bit of background. I've been using Lucilin for a number of years and I'm really, really pleased with it. This is the product. I always say to people it's related distantly. Can you see that?

Everybody see it? Yeah, really bad.

Yeah, Alan's used to doing this. He's holding it in the camera.

Yeah, but if he's—

it's the shine.

Anyway, you get it, you get the idea.

Yeah.

And my, and my party piece, because I don't like using anything that damages tissue, so my party piece is I say this is related to Demestos, but you can do, you can do that with it because it's that safe with tissue. It's not going to kill any tissue. Don't try that with Demestos, guys.

It is related to outline what it is.

It is related to the it's what the body uses. Can you tell us what it is and what it does, please?

Okay, well, um, Lucilin is a synthesized version of a naturally occurring chlorine which your body, um, the mammalian body, actually manufactures. Your leukocyte, your white blood cell, actually makes this particular chlorine. It is a unique chlorine. And the fact that its pH is the same as us. And as Nick quite rightly says, it's non-toxic and you did your part of these, so I'll do mine. So now I'm just very wet.

Yeah, he's 140, everybody.

Doesn't he look amazing?

We're not going to start going on about moist. I think what we need to know is we just need to know. So I've also had people say that they've used it around the eyes on wounds and stuff because it's really safe even if it goes into the eye. Is that right, Alan?

That's correct. Yes, it is. We actually do a little dropper version of it, which I don't have— I should have with me tonight, which is this little guy. And that is a dropper. As you can see, that's just— that is the same product. There is no difference. And the liquid that's actually in it, whether you have this one or this guy or the one that Nick's holding. But the applicator is what it's about, and that's for ears, eyes, small openings, small wounds, or small animals. You wouldn't necessarily want a half a liter if you're just dealing with a hamster, you know, it's not about drowning the thing. Or small boys.

Alan, I've got a lovely story. Arthur has got a little bit of impetigo on his on his chin just here, and I sent him to school with some, uh, Lucilin. And the, the teachers, the school took one look at it, and I got a phone call from his teacher saying, I'm sure this is safe. And I said, I can absolutely guarantee you this is safe as houses, because otherwise he wouldn't have it in his, in his little hands. Um, and he says, we can't, we can't prescribe it for, for, we can't use it at school because it doesn't have written instructions for humans. So are you going to come out with the human version at some point? Is that a plan?

We actually already have done. It's called Lucilin Family Sanitizer. It is available. It's actually certified for sale by HSE, the Health and Safety Executive, which is the UK organization now that controls the UK's biocides. It used to be handled by the European Biocide Directive in Europe, but now it's all been handed over to HSE. So HSE is the governing body that rules what we do in the UK, and HSE have approved it for human use. Fabulous.

Okay, I'm going to get some of that then. So tell us therefore about how the more unusual uses— sorry guys, I'm hogging the questions here, I will shut up after this one— what are the most more unusual uses? Maybe you were talking about how it's used with sweet itch in horses, sweet itch being an allergy to culicoides, midgey mites on horses.

Well, that's an interesting one actually, Nick, because it's not an insecticide, it doesn't actually kill an insect. However, what it does do, as you're probably well aware, that most insects like flies or fleas or the little mites which cause sweet itch. The way they feed, they will bite you and then they regurgitate their previous meal into the bite and that starts the digestive process. They suck up then the meal, which is basically you and the bacteria. If you actually douse that with Lucilin, it kills the bacteria in their meal and eventually effectively starves them because they now can't digest what they've actually bitten, because they— you've killed off the, the bacteria, which is their digestive mechanism. So effectively, they will either starve or they'll move away.

Love this.

And so this is what I wanted to introduce to you guys, because when Alan said that to me, I just might the, the thought processes in my mind went, it went, went off crazily. I mean, it is a nice antibacterial, and, and, and you, you know, guys who are watching, you can use it or you can't use it, it's up to you completely, but it just doesn't damage tissue. But this is— this takes the whole use into another level. You are actually modifying microbiome of insects on the skin of the horse, and I'm wondering whether there are other applications in a similar way.

What about— analogy to a flea bite is often analogy to the flea dirt, is that right, lads? And surely it's not just the dirt but the baddies inside it. Does it have any application there?

Absolutely, it does. And there again, it's not going to kill the flea, but it will make the environment uncomfortable for them, but it will actually kill off the bacteria, which is what's causing the irritation. When the flea bites you, it's not so much the bite that is causing the irritation, it's what it leaves behind. It's the bacterial infection, which is what Lucilin will do. It will kill off that. And you can actually prove it to yourself. If you— we've all got animals, you've got animals. If you notice sometimes when you get a dog that scratches you, you get that wheal that comes up on your arm. That's an red raised part of your skin. If you douse that with a mucilin, you can almost watch the, the redness and the swelling go down as your body reacts now to the fact that it no longer needs to deal with that invading pathogen.

Wow.

So you can actually watch that happen.

Alan, you said, okay, just to backtrack, you said that this is a very natural product that our body produces it. Okay, so can you tell us a bit about that? You were saying something to do with the macrophages produce this. Could you explain to the people what that is? It's not like you're farming all these macrophages and squishing them like olives to get this extract out. Like, what is the process? You know, how did you do it?

Well, if I told you how we did it, I'd have to kill you.

Oh, go on.

It is a synthetic version. Okay, so there are many ways of making hypochlorous acid, and the typical one is through an electrolysis process. There are other ones which are through a chemical process. Ours is more unique— well, it is unique in the way we do it. It allows us— our methodology allows us to make it in vast quantities And it also allows us to adjust the strength of the free available chlorine, because that's the key to all of this, is what's called the FAC, the free available chlorine. But it allows us to control how much free available chlorine there is in the product, but more importantly, it allows us to maintain the pH factor. Now, HOCl has a very narrow window of pH where it's really, really effective. You go outside of that and the efficacy drops off. Also, if you drop below 4 pH, you're starting now to go into chlorine. If you go above 7.5, 8, you're now into hypochlorite. Okay. So what you need to do is you need to focus on the pH where hypochlorous acid is most effective, and that, believe it or not, is the same as our skin, 5.5. And our methodology allows us to manage the pH so tight and so precise that we can produce it in vast volumes at the most effective pH, 5.5.

Cool, okay.

And then this, the leucillin is hypochlorous acid, hypochlorous, whereas bleach is hypochlorite, and you don't want to get those mixed up, guys. Hypochlorous acid, okay. And it was discovered a long time ago, Alan, you were saying before you came on.

Yeah, it was actually identified by Michael Faraday and John Davy way, way, way in the 1800s. Yeah, and it was actually used in the battlefields on the First World War.

Oh, good, good, good.

How did they use that? How did they use it there?

Yeah, well, they used it exactly as a wound sanitizer, but there again, their product— but how did they stabilize it? They didn't. That's the problem. They didn't stabilize it. They had to make it and use it within like an hour or two.

Ah, okay.

So that's really— well, what we've done with Lucilin is to create the product which has a very tight pH, really focused on that most effective band, and has a 2-year shelf life in the bottle.

That's cool, I like it. And there's a number of questions coming down the side here, and one of them says, will this replace the colloidal silver in my press seen as colloidal silver as the brand. Where does it sit alongside products like colloidal silver?

Colloidal silver does do a similar job. It's not as effective. It does have other slight side effects to it which Lucilin doesn't. But efficacy-wise, your colloidal silver is probably, what, about a log 4? Lucilin is a log 7. Okay, you want me to explain MOGs, do you?

Not really, it sounds impressive though.

It's got a lot more activity, it's got a lot more active molecule in it, is that correct?

Yeah, well, basically what it is, we all see the adverts for Domestos and Parazet and things like that, and it says 99.9% effective. That's 3 nines, 99.9. That's log 3. Okay, Lucilin is log 7, so it's 99.99999% effective. So it's 10,000 times better at killing bacteria than the Nestos.

Wowzers, that's quite a claim.

Wow. And much quicker as well, Alan. One of the things you were saying was it kills within nanoseconds, is that right?

It's almost instantaneous. It depends on exactly what pathogen you are attempting. It's slightly slower on things like a fungus. Viruses, it's instantaneous. Most bacteria are instantaneous. There are some which it can take up to a minute.

And yeast? What about, what about yeasty ears? Surely not.

Yeast is a fungus, um, so yeah, it will kill that, uh, Pseudomonas or something like that. Yeah, it will even kill ringworm.

Oh yeah, I've even used this as, uh, you know, for those Pseudomonas infections that get into eye ulcers and things like that. I've actually, um, used it for those because those are really notoriously antimicrobial resistant. So it can be a really useful way to speed up the antimicrobials in there. But I just— this, this therefore sort of then begs the question, you know, this is such an effective biocide of killing bacteria and yeasts and viruses. Where do we draw the line of impact on what we would consider the friendlies on the skin? Friendlies in the gut? Because obviously there was an article about colloidal silver having some downsides for people that were using it in mouths of dogs, that it was possibly going to be ingested and start to upset their gut microbiome. Where are we at with hypochlorous acid?

Hypochlorous acid, actually, again, it's very broad spectrum. It doesn't differentiate between good and bad. The thing about hypochlorous acid is it's— it doesn't hang around. It neutralizes itself incredibly rapidly. In actual fact, if you were to spill some out in the street, within an hour or two there's nothing left but salt, that saline solution.

And on the skin, Alan, how long does it last?

There again, depending on what environment you're in, it's very susceptible to UV light. Ultraviolet light will actually kill the product too, which is why we make special bottles for it.

Hence the purple bottle.

Hence the color.

That's right. There's actually a UV blocker in the bottle as well, in the plastic. We actually have these bottles made for us specially. There's a UV blocker actually in the plastic. So it's not just because it's purple. We like purple. As you see, everything's purple. But there's also a UV blocker because this, it is naturally unstable. So that's really what we have to concentrate on is making the product stable. When you put it in the dog's mouth, there again, you must focus on the area you are trying to kill off, the area of of pathogen you're trying to kill off. But the saliva and the actual, the dog's own mucus and everything else will kill off the, the, the staph quite rapidly. So you don't, it doesn't hang around. It's not one of those products which sits, you could put on the skin and it's effective for like 24 hours. That's not what it's about. It immediately kills the pathogen and moves on.

Okay, it's for cleaning.

Very quickly, yeah, just, you know, Fiona's just said here, so therefore if it goes past the shelf life, because I know that arbitrarily they always say put 2-year shelf life on just about everything out there that's complementary, so if it goes past that, you know, Fiona's asked, you know, does that mean it just becomes less effective, or does it ever become harmful?

No, it becomes less effective. If I've got— we keep an archive of every batch we make, and we've been doing it now for 11 years, so I've got quite a large archive, and I can go back 7 or 8 years and still find product that's very active. It's not as active as it should, as it was by a long shot, but still active. But if it's out of date, what it does is it loses efficacy, and what you end up with is a bottle of saline.

Right, okay.

So at least it's not going to harm anybody. No.

Yes, Susie Greaves here. Susie, she says, I have a rabbit with respiratory issues, viral we are thinking, along with her vet. Would this be able to be used in a nebulizer? So therefore internally, and it comes back to the initial question there, can you use this product internally? What of the effect internally? Where are we with that? Nebulizer, inhaling it.

It's not being used in, in Pasteurella cases as well for nebulizing when they've had Pasteurella infection, you know, respiratory infections. So that sort of leads into that same, same thing.

It's a difficult one, actually, Brendan.

You can—

yes, it's been used in nebulizers. We've actually done some work with, uh, with horses in the nebulizer on it. Um, it's also been used, um, in, uh, in foggers, um, to damp down COVID, for instance. Um, the Japanese use it extensively for that purpose. From a regulatory standpoint though, the UK is well behind on allowing you the use of it. It's purely a regulatory step, it's not an efficacy step. We know it works, we know it's not harmful, but from a regulatory standpoint, it's— the UK has not approved it.

Hmm, I'm not surprised. And where do you think your product stands in relation to alcohol gels and that sort of washing?

We outperform alcohol gels and without the downside.

Yes, interesting.

Yeah, yeah, there was a couple of questions about America as well.

Are you asking that, Nick?

Uh, no, I wasn't. I was just going to jump in with regard to dental. She says, is it effective for dent— as a dental rinse for dogs?

It's actually used in America and to a certain extent, the electrolysis version is actually used by the dental practices in the UK for humans as well as dogs.

That was my next question, because I had a root canal done recently, and I was— I was, as much as one can talk when you're having a root canal— I was talking to the dentist about what they use, and I think they just use good old-fashioned bleach. And I was thinking, that's a little bit behind the times, somewhat toxic. Why don't they use hypochlorous acid.

And a lot of them do, actually, Nick. A lot of them do. But what they do is they have specialist machines which manufacture it on site.

Ah, okay.

There again, because of its lack of stability.

Ah, yeah, but they must cost a fortune, whereas they can just buy a bottle of this stuff and it would last them for, you know, a month.

They do. They do cost a fortune, and they also cost a lot in maintenance as well.

There was a piece a while ago on them, on mouthwashes, and, you know, mouthwash is coming in for a bit of flak because we have this flora in our mouth that's really important to most of us, and then you have a couple of baddies, you know, causing mischief as you always do. And so the idea of washing out and killing all bacteria in our mouth is kind of a little bit came into question there in the last year or so. It comes back to the same question. If I was to mouthwash with Lusilin, am I just clearing all life from my mouth and starting again? And because in the belief that I'm trying to fight, let's say I've got a gum infection of some sort of gingivitis, and rinsing to try and help this is a good idea at a slight cost of killing all life in my mouth because it's broad spectrum, do you know what I mean? Kind of the same with the gut question, really.

Generally, I'd say yes, it's a good idea. I mean, I use it personally for those things. I mean, if I've got a cough or a sore throat, I will actually gargle with it or spray it in the back of my throat, just to kill off maybe a staph infection or something like that. And it works incredibly well for that. Yes, it's a broad spectrum, so yes, it will kill off bacteria as well as the bad, but your good bacteria does recolonize very rapidly.

Oh yeah, I had strep throat last month, 2, 3 months ago. Oh man, it was so bad, and I haven't had it since I was a kid, and I was very, very uncomfortable, and I was— I would have gargled bloody Domestos if I had it in my hand. It was— my throat was so sore.

Yeah, next time you get some, just give it a good spray in the back of your throat. It doesn't taste very nice. Price. I'll give you that. Okay, okay, but it certainly works.

Cool. I'm looking— I'm gonna get—

my thought would be Peter McCulloch, the cardiologist who was at the forefront of looking at primary treatment of COVID not just going home and waiting to turn blue. He was saying we should treat this from day one when you get COVID, and his big thing was doing nasal flushes with a dilute povidone iodine solution. And I'm thinking, that's a hassle, it's potentially going to sting and what have you. Whereas if you've got this in some fashion and you can just do a rinse, apparently in— what's the—

there's a state Yeah, they completely knocked it on the head.

And one of the things that they did, they were using antimicrobial, antiviral nasal washes. So I thought that would be the bee's knees.

Japanese do actually do that. Japanese do it as well. And the Japanese actually have—

oh, oh, don't freeze.

Oh, there we go. It's just— I wondered what the noise was, and now I know it's the computer being wound up by a little—

yeah, oh, it just came back. He's got to come back in again.

I'm finding this very, very, really interesting, isn't it? I mean, we've got some questions popping up, and, you know, we need to ask these guys because there's loads of questions coming in.

Um, I think I can answer that.

Coming so many different— yeah, why does it keep coming into so many different bottles, uh, if it's all the same stuff? And I think that's just about application.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, it's just if you've got a horse and you buy a tiny little bottle like this, it'll last you 3 days. If you've got a horse and you buy something like that, it'll last you a decent length of time. That's it. It's just practicality because it will—

Yeah, yeah, you've got a little hamster and you have a massive spray bottle. It's like in his face. He's not going to appreciate that the second time around. Debbie Williams, I love purple too. Good stuff, Debbie, thanks for that. And then underneath that is Debbie Glasgow, what about the bird flu? How could we use this to help biosecurity with poultry? That's a cracker of a question.

Fogging, fogging, fogging poultry houses.

Yeah, can you gas poultry houses? Can you just like you do with these?

Well, yeah, you fog, you know those machines that look like some leaf blower but they're going around with the fog that comes out of them? That's effectively a particulate fog with the hypochlorous acid in, but it's very quickly, it goes, dissipates, as he was saying. So that's the beauty of it, is this lack of long-lasting impact on environmental bacteria and microbiome that's going on.

So I've got another idea. Here's my idea, right? You know the way the meat chain is filthy, okay? And all our salmonella and E. coli comes from the inside of these animals. And our big problem is then with the way we eviscerate the animal, we don't take care, particularly with poultry because it's an traumatic suction out of the guts. You break it out the mouth and anus and you spray some of the stomach and food gut contents back into the cavity. That's where our Salmonella coli comes from, splashing into this. They all use the same dunking bath to kill them. Okay, why don't we feed Lucilin to all the cattle and pigs and birds before they die and then just completely wipe out all the bacteria in their bodies and then we slaughter them? I know this sounds very, very controversial.

Can we not just use the lucilin in the processing plant rather than actually trying to throttle them with—

It has to go through the animal, and if the animal's not alive, how's it going to go through?

I think it's going to get absorbed by fomites and crap and it will be taken out by the stomach.

As soon as it's passed through the stomach, the pH has changed, therefore you've taken the product away. And what's more, is this not where chlorinated chickens come from? That idea.

Yeah, it's not chlorine though, it's a type of chlorine.

I know, chlorinated chickens, that's bleach essentially, isn't it? That's another name for bleach. Yeah, and this is not bleach. Ah, here's Alan back again.

Hey Alan, we've got a great question here, Alan. Debbie Glasgow asks, what about the bird flu? How could we use this to help with biosecurity of our poultry?

First of all, can you hear me?

Yep.

Yes, yes, okay.

It's an interesting one. We could look at, and actually I have looked at using a fogger within the birdhouses, and that seems to be a way of actually reducing the potential for it. There again, it's not something that you that you can easily administer. There are ways and means of putting it into the water that the chickens or the birds would actually drink, which will help. But the best way that we assume at the moment is probably to fog the chicken house or a to reduce the potential for it within the atmosphere that the birds live in.

I've seen people walking through birdhouses with foggers, because then you get it down at the level of the beak of the bird. You get, I don't know, these sheds are just enormous, but you get 4 guys walk through slowly, giving, you know, this kind of smoky effect, which will then dissipate very quickly. Because it's going to hit sawdust and crap and what have you.

Exactly.

I'd have thought that's a fairly ideal situation. In the gut will just persist.

Yeah, exactly. You can, you could use these portable foggers, or you can actually put a fogger within that birdhouse itself. You can put Lucilin into one of those foggers, that's not a problem. You could apply it that way. It's not a difficult thing to do, but yes, that would work.

Of course, from a regenerative point of view, the ideal would be to not have to use an antibacterial of any description because your chickens were A, so happy, B, the stocking density was low, C, had good access to—

That's where we are though.

And what have you. But we are where we are. You know, I think Lucilin in the real world does have an application, and, but, and I look forward to the day many years from now when we don't have to use it. We just use it on— I use it on my kids' knees, literally, this stuff on my kids' knees. And conjunctivitis, Sasha was saying, it's great with conjunctivitis. It's, it's a useful thing.

That's amazing. What about Angela Fieldhouse? Could it help with psoriasis?

It does help with psoriasis. Psoriasis and also eczema. But it won't— obviously it won't, it won't cure psoriasis, it won't cure eczema, but what it will do, it'll help you manage it. Uh, one of the biggest problems that I have— friends of mine who actually has eczema, um, that the skin dries and cracks and then it gets infected, uh, and then it starts, really starts to become irritated and sore. Yeah, at that point, that's where it can really help out a great deal. It will stop it getting infected. If it does get infected, it will kill off the infectant, and then actually that it will settle down. So it's not a cure, but it will help you manage it.

So just, just as we're entering our final furlong of the show here, Alan, I just wanted to say, what do you think about the idea of using Lucilin to kill all the good guys and the bad guys and then coming in with the probiotic, because we've got a lovely guy, Joe Flanagan, coming in next week to talk to us about the use of probiotics. And he's coming at managing bacteria, which is essentially what you're doing, but from the other perspective. He's saying blast out the bad guys with the good guys. And so just your thoughts on that.

I think it's a very interesting idea. I think it's probably an idea that it's well worth exploring. Yet, leucillin is a very broad spectrum. It doesn't really care what bacteria it's dealing with. Some bacteria is more resistant to leucillin than others, so there is that. But whether you are looking at a probiotic to rebuild the flora, probiotics don't necessarily build all the flora. They are more selective. So I think that whole argument is worthy of discussion. Yeah, I think it probably needs a little bit more thought process to look at the good bacteria, what are the good flora, what is it you're trying to actually rebuild and not just throw a probiotic at it.

Yeah, there's a number of— sorry, Bernd, just before I sort of read this, there's a number of people asking Where do we buy this? Just before, uh, Brent's question, where do you want, where do you want people to go here? Um, Alan, there's a lot of people looking for it and they're worried they won't be able to buy it now due to our phenomenal readership.

It's available in a wide variety of places. If you're looking at for the animals, Pets at Home stock it. Every branch of Pets at Home has it on the health and hygiene aisle.

Nice.

If you go to Amazon, you'll find it on Amazon. You'll find it on Amazon UK, Amazon Germany, Amazon America. You'll find it in a lot of those different places. Most good pet stores will store it or stock it. If they don't have it, then they will deal with one of the wholesalers that we deal with, people like the big ones, the Pets at Home, the Pedigrees, the Vitals, the Trust Pets of this world. If they buy from any of those, so even a good pet shop will, if they haven't got it in stock, they should be able to get it for you. It's available on Amazon, it's available on Fare, and everywhere.

Fiona rightly says your local independent pet store. I think that's a fantastic to support these guys. You know, pet cats at home, it's all very well, you know, they're great.

Yeah, I said if your local pet's a lot— we've got actually, if you go onto the Lucilin website, go to the where to buy button, put in your postcode, and it will give you an array of post— of pet shops that are within a mile or two of you where you're living.

Yeah, sounds good. Alan Clary there is a follower of ours for a while. Bubbles Pet Care. He's got a small pet shop. There you go. There's a small independent. If you're looking for a website that sells it, Bobbles Pecker. What were you going to say, Brad?

So there was a couple of things that we sort of raised whilst you took a break for a couple of minutes. Sorry, one was about— no, no, absolutely fine. Gave us a chance to have a chat. So one was just about the implications in the food industry. So there's all sorts of people getting worried about their raw, and let's face it, that's what we generally are talking about week on week. And they're talking about the bacteria that may be getting into their food and they're sort of trying to find a kill step that's not going to adjust the food unnecessarily. And we wanted to differentiate this from the chlorinated chicken stories that we get out of the US and at the same time also differentiate Could people, could companies end up using this in a food product with it then changing back to a saline effectively as it's inactivated, or would it just not get the distribution through the food?

Wow, great question.

I think you're, to be honest with you, I think your last point there, rather, is more correct, but I don't think it would actually work its way through the food. I think that if you wanted to use it on a chicken breast or something like that, absolutely you could do that. But to do it as part of the food chain, I don't think that would work within the raw environment. Hypochlorous acid is used in the US to spray fresh fruit and vegetables in the store. Safeway supermarkets actually have foggers in the store where they literally spray the fresh fruit and veg with it.

Oh, interesting.

Oh, is that what those foggers are? Because I just thought they were a cool way of making your fruit and veg aisle look super chilled and everything else.

But actually, yeah, a little experiment you can all do if you want to see what hypochlorous acid does to food. If you get 2 apples, take a bite out of each of them, spray one with Lucilin and leave the other one untouched. Put them on the side of the counter and see how quickly they rot.

Love it.

Nice. That's— I'm gonna do that for sure. And what about, Alan, what about hospitals? I know the guy that's coming on next, next week, Joe, he shared a couple of studies there of 2 Italian hospitals and apparently one in England starting soon, and they're now using probiotic cleaners to clean the environment because they're quite effective given a bit of time. They are very effective at keeping down hospital infections, antibiotic-resistant infections that everybody's very concerned about, the SICS in particular. And so these probiotic washes were great. Is there any future in a product like Lusulin or hypochlorous acid being used as a cleaner in the home, cleaner in hospitals? 'Can you produce us a concentrated version that we can dilute in our mop bucket?' That kind of thing.

Yes, there is an application for it, and yes, it's actually— we are working with a couple of hospitals on various applications of it. Can't go too much into that at the moment, but it's— hypochlorous acid is, as I said, is inherently unstable and it's expensive. If you're going to use it as a hard surface sanitiser, there are other alternatives which are a lot cheaper. You can't just dilute it, okay? Even if we made it a lot stronger and you use tap water, you'll kill it.

Ah, okay, interesting.

Okay, because as I said, because the nature of the hypochlorous acid molecule, it attaches itself, it will attach itself to minerals in water. So if you've got a high level of turbidity or a high level of minerals in your water, that will effectively dilute the hypochlorous acid to a point where it's very little use. So it's like when we sell— we sell 5-liter bottles of Lucilin as well for commercial use, and we always say that yes, you can decant it, but decant it into a Lucilin bottle. Don't put it into anything else. Don't mix it with anything else and don't dilute it, but you will damage the product.

Yeah, yeah, interesting. God, this sounds good.

So useful, useful for handles and small areas that you just want to kill what somebody else has slathered on or put on, but don't, but don't use it as a main thing. So, so when we're talking about, um, you know, biosecurity, because loads of people get panicked about parvovirus, for instance, here, you know. And what we're saying here is that therefore it's probably not so good as a foot bath or a large sort of cleaning out the kennel to try and reduce parvo. Is that what you're saying? Because it's not a good—

basically, yeah. If you try and, if you try and use things like hypochlorous acid to clean out a kennel, you're going to use a lot of it and it's going to be very expensive and you probably won't get any better results for it. If you're going to use it in a situation where you don't want to have a nasty chemical, you don't want to have a Domestos or something that is toxic, that's where hypochlorous acid fits. It doesn't fit in the cleaning the crap out of the kennel.

So when that guy comes to you to purchase a puppy, is wearing his really expensive Nike trainers and you want to spray them off with something so it doesn't bring parvovirus into your puppies, you can safely use Lucilin.

You can do, yeah, yeah, you could use Lucilin on that. But I said where—

we've missed out, boys, I could have got a Nike sponsorship for that.

Anyway, where Lucilin is best focused is what we refer to as on animal, on person. Applications. It is a skin disinfectant, it's a skin sanitizer in all aspects of that. That's where it fits, and that's where it fits best. It's an expensive product to use just to wipe down a table. Yes, you can do it, and yes, it works, but it's an expensive product to do that.

I think maybe— so, last minute, Anything that you'd want to say? Any places that we can reach you? Have you got any world tours to share? Any final words?

There you go. Paula's just come on there. I just said she uses it to wipe down the beards after—

That's a good shout, that. Good idea.

That's a very useful, a very good idea. Just a quick point, National Therapy Dogs, they use Lusilin as a skin and coat sanitizer between visits to vulnerable people. That's the sort of application you can't use things like alcohol for, you can't use things like Banesto for, because you are applying it to the animal. And that— so that's why they use Awesome, that's really good. So on the animal is where it really fits best as an application, and that's why, as I think somebody actually— there you go, Doris, I spray my dogs after being pet by strangers.

Oh my God, I can imagine petting somebody's dog and she runs up and she sprays her dogs afterwards. It's like, what's wrong with me?

Do you know, through COVID, we literally in the very beginning It was a thing that we would spray if dogs had to come into the surgery from a COVID patient. So we knew that the owner had COVID, then we would discuss spraying the dogs down with Lucilin just to reduce the risk of contamination.

Amazing.

That was what it was used for extensively, actually. There were 4 police forces in the UK that did exactly that with with it as well.

Good time to be an antibacterial when there's something like COVID. You don't want to celebrate, sorry, you shouldn't be celebrating, there's nothing to celebrate. Dan Keavey has asked about 3 times, can you get it in Ireland? You can, Dan. There's 2 places here, Christie's, which is the groomer suppliers, and Equestrian World, no surprises, monster online shop, equestrianworld.ie. But yeah, everywhere, every country has it. It's all over the place.

Well, can we just, can we just identify, just before you came on, Alan, you were talking about what was happening over the other side of the Atlantic. There's a few questions being asked about North America. Is it, is it available yet? Is it going to be available at some point? Where are we?

Canada.

It is available in Canada. We have a distributor in Canada called Arbor Dale. They have an array of stores in Canada, but we have also just shipped our first 2 pallets of product out to our new North American distributor who's based in New York State.

Nice one.

He will be developing the marketplace for us over the coming months, and I think he's planning on doing something on Amazon in the States with it as well.

You might need to get onto the shippers tomorrow and ship another 2 pallets to Dubai. The people want to buy it.

As you can see, we ship it all over Europe. We literally— in fact, we've got 2 shipments going out today. We've got one into Holland, one into Germany. We ship to Spain, we ship to Finland, Sweden, Denmark. So there's quite a lot of places you can get it now.

Sounds good.

If you really have trouble, if anybody really has trouble, just pick up the phone and call us and in the office. We love to talk to people. We're not one of these companies that hide behind the phone or eBay.

You know, just to check, is that your website as well if people want to find out a bit more?

That's it, that's the one. Yeah, that's the one.

Yeah, sounds good. Look, Alan, more particularly brilliant, uh, brilliant products. I'm definitely going to get some for the dog and kids. That just sounds, uh, yeah, sounds, sounds brilliant.

Uh, so I've heard somebody Just one thing, I heard somebody actually ask about if it's the same product, why all the different size bottles? Yeah, it's purely application. Yeah, yeah, purely application. Yeah, yeah, I think somebody said, you know, if you don't want to buy half a liter if you've got a gerbil, right? Yeah, by the same token, a 60ml spray is not going to go far on an 8-hand horse.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Yeah.

No, it makes sense. It sounds good. All right guys, we've got to go on to a bit on the side here. And so, so next week we have Joe from Ingenious Robotics. Guys, two guests in a row, you lucky things. So that was a cracker. Alan, thanks very much for your time. Really, really appreciated that cracking product, Lucilin. I can't wait to give it a go, and the two boys stand over it, so that's good enough for me. So fantastic, well done on that business, and best of luck in the future. Looks like you're growing at a phenomenal rate there, so that's Brilliant. Good news for you. Well done.

If anybody needs anything, anything, any help, or you've got, uh, if you're in a salon or something like that and you need the data sheets, the cost sheets, they're all available on the internet. We can send them out to you, all those sort of things.

Cool.

It's, it's, uh, so just contact us. That's the easiest way to do it.

Sounds good.

Cheers, Alan. Thank you very much. Thank you for your time.

Really appreciate it. All the best.

Take it easy, guys. Thank you.

So guys, so we're gonna see you all in about an hour on Patreon for those Patreon viewers on the bit on the side. Hope you enjoyed tonight. As Conor said, we've got part 2, which is all about smothering with probiotics next week with Luca and Joe. So let's— we look forward to that and see you all then.

Marvelous.

See you later.