RawPetMedics Tuesday Live

Oh dear God, are we live?

Hello, good evening everybody, good evening everybody. Let me put my microphone on and get myself in.

I can't find my earphones, Nick, I can't find my earphones.

I'm glad you're more useless than I am, my friend. Where am I? Hang on, apologies everybody. Brendan is in Denmark and he's giving an amazing talk to the Nordic Pets Food Manufacturers Association, so therefore Conor and I are in complete disarray. Annemarie is first in, Karen is second. Blimey, on time, says she. Cheeky, cheeky. Maudie's here giving us her full moral support, which is lovely. Thank you, Maudie.

Where are my earphones, Nick?

Uh, ask your wife.

This is somebody's fault.

Okay, so, uh, in the meantime, we— I'll just say we are going to be doing Q&As tonight, so please, uh, if you've got any, any questions, do put them up. Brendan, Denmark, doing a talk. He's above such things as, uh, hanging out with the likes of us. Um, and so it's Q&A, but just to, to remind you with this stuff at the bottom, uh, uh, many, many thanks to all our Patreon supporters. That's absolutely fantastic. You can reach us on rawpetmedics forward slash— no, patreon.com forward slash rawpetmedics. And the other thing is please come along. We are having an edutainment day on the 2nd of December in Manchester, Manchester, England. I'm not sure if there is a Manchester in the United States. I'm sure there is because there is a Boston and there is a, there's a Paris and there's everything else in the States. But we're going to be doing that and we're really excited about that. And in the morning, we're going to be having lectures that They're not going to be, you know, stretch your brain too much, but they're going to be stimulating and they're going to be lots of topics that we might not otherwise cover. So it's going to be— there's going to be education of a sort in the morning, but a lot of fun. And then in the afternoon, we've got Q&A between the three of us. And we— what else have we got, Conor? What else is on quiz is set up.

Yeah, and, uh, we want to try and make a bit more kind of, um, audience participation, you know. So we're going to have— we've got a lot of ideas set up. We want the first half to be kind of short little talks on this or that and a bit of fun, but the afternoon would be more a Christmas party. And so yeah, we've got a number of things set up. We've engaged the help of Fiona, who is awesome at setting these things up. You're gonna— you can try, uh, beat the lads, uh, in quizzes. We're gonna have some various different kind of interactive things. We're gonna have serious giveaways, and we're gonna have a few kind of a bit of fun at the end, Q&A at the end, bit of crack, bit of mingling, few drinks, which I am very much looking forward to. So all that. So yeah, that's the way we're gonna pitch it. We're pitching it more as a bit of a, bit of a party than anything else. And Fiona told me to tell everybody that we will all be wearing our RPM t-shirts, and there will be a free few t-shirts. And people get entered into their draws if they get their orders in before the 10th of October. So the game. I ideally would like all the tickets gone before November. That's my dream. But, um, so that's why we're going to give it a push over the next 3 or 4 weeks. We're going to start letting you in on the timetable, showing you exactly what's involved, telling you about some of the prizes and giveaways and some stuff that's happening. That'll all start coming out now at the moment, uh, just to kind of push that, give you a few deadlines, a few things. So yeah, that's what's happening, and we're very much looking forward to it. It's on the 2nd of December in Manchester. Don't miss it, it's gonna be great crack. And so we're about half booked now, but I want the rest of it done so we don't have to think about it November. November is busy. Yeah. We've got the RFES conference coming up. We've got a few other bits and bobs. So I kind of just, yeah, I'd like everything done and dusted. So yeah, that's it. That's what's going on.

Karen has put a link to Eventbrite, who are the people who do the tickets for us, and that's just in the comments just there on the side. And Karen is saying buy tickets before the 10th of October to be in with a chance of winning a t-shirt, an extra special Raw Pet Medics t-shirt. So that's pretty good. They are, they're really good actually. Yeah, I often sleep in mine. They're so comfortable. The cotton is really good. And so they're quite pleasant to sleep in. Not that I love you two so much that I want to sleep with you or anything like that.

Yeah, you just want my face on it. We've got some plans in that department, but that's all coming. I love those t-shirts. I have to get a few. So yeah, that's happening. I still can't connect to my earphones. Really sorry, Pete, you're going to have to tidy up the sound now because he doesn't like it when we don't have our earphones in. But I can't spend any more time stressing about that. Did you have a good week, Nick?

I did have a good week. I'm just trying to think what we did at the weekend. It was a bit of a weekend off because Helsinki was absolutely full on. So we just had a bit of a weekend off and had time with the children. In fact, we just took the kids to, uh, I took the kids because I don't see them as much as half as often, you know, for, for proper time together. So I took them to Bath and we went to the bookshop and we bought up a load of books. Surprise, surprise. And then we, we, we went to Pizza Express, which it— yes, it's carbs, guys, it is carbs. But it was— hey, but that's what they wanted to do, and so that's what we did. And I had a pizza and it was delicious. It was delicious. Yes, I kid you not.

What is going on? Something's— Nick's life has gone off the rails. We're going to see him on the front of the Irish Mirror soon, naked from the waist down, staggering through town. All right, Nick, back on the carbs. Next thing you know, you're going to be eating sweets.

Oh yes, and all sorts. How about you, my friend? What are you— But what have you been up to? Anything good?

I went to the zoo on Sunday. Somebody said— I was talking to Karen. Karen Becker is over in Africa just doing amazing— just, I'm over doing this wildlife. She's one of very few vets in the world that can do this particular role in wildlife conservation because she grew her degree in wildlife conservation before she became a vet. And so it's this rare kind of job where she's teaching other vets in that role. And I'm like, you're doing what? She goes, yeah, meeting a baby rhino tomorrow. And I'm like, you're meeting a baby rhino? That was just like, you know, that very few people are ever going to get close to that. So, um, so yeah, anyway, that was— so that inspired me and I thought, I am— I have not been doing enough animal stuff with the kids. So off to the zoo we went and it went, pack a big kick, and, uh, went off to Dublin Zoo. Dublin Zoo is enormous now. We have— it's doubled in size recently. They've got the African Plain, so they've got enormous, compared to what it was, space, uh, for some of the bigger animals and two huge islands, one of the chimpanzees, one of the gorillas you can barely see them. And so it's just awesome. You're looking for— I can't find these grizzlies. It'll take you all day to walk around the island, but eventually you just see one sitting there and he's just nibbling on something. And oh, it was just much better than the way it was, you know. So it was great, nice day out, show the kids the animals. They know all the names. It's amazing how they remember absolutely everything, isn't it? Like, you just show them once and they'll say, you know, what's— what animals does the jaguar eat in the Amazon? Tapir. It's like, how could you remember tapir? They've never even seen the animal before, you know. It looks like a kind of a pig. It's like, yeah, that's right. Anyway, so that was my weekend. And since then a few cool little posts on Facebook, a few little raw, raw v dry studies came out. So I posted them up, that got the juices going. Because everybody wants to hear that message. Is that the Bloop? Who's that?

That is the Mau, by the sounds of it, a little bit higher than the Bloop.

Yeah, I see. Oh, very good. So yeah, a couple of posts about that. So I was excited to see those studies coming out. And then also I announced to people, I said, look, there's a study coming out that I am a part of. So we're getting the study off the ground. To compare raw v dry dogs. And so in a real way, not like one of these surveys that the vegan pet food companies tend to put out, but this is actually— these dogs will be analyzed by vets. It's a retrospective analysis. So you go into the veterinary hospital, you go, right guys, give us your records from the last year, and we go through them and we can compare raw versus dry-fed dogs. That's the real McCoy, because these have been assessed by different vets, not just one fully loaded vet, but a number of different vets. And you can tell a lot of different things. So we've a doozy of a study ready to go, but it's going to be similar medicine science. It's going to be crowdfunding. If you— if people want these answers, we're going to need a bit of help to do this study. It's very cheap despite what everyone tells you, that research is extremely expensive and that's why these pharma companies have to make billions every year. But actually, the real meaningful studies, you get them done for like £30,000, you know, $40,000. So that's what we're going to be crowdfunding for. So we're going to announce that at the end of the week, and we'll be pushing that and asking everybody to help out and get all the— get all the people with voices to give it a push. You know, we've got—

okay, so that's literally Literally on Friday you're going to announce that crowdfunding to get some data. Okay, that's good. That's on Friday. And that's— you're going to announce that through your Facebook page?

Yeah, I'll be shouting it from everywhere. I'll get into your page, I'll get onto RPM, and yeah, hopefully get some of the bigger influencers on board and give it a push. Because the whole argument, the whole debate of health and nutrition pivot around just a tiny few studies because Nobody wants these sort of studies done. Nobody wants to know which is more expensive to grow, a raw or dry-fed dog, because the results of that study are hugely influential on the market. You know, all these nonsensical studies, but if you show someone one dog goes to the vet 3 times more than the other dog, you're going to start asking questions. Or costs twice as much, or consumes twice as many drugs, or in the case of Thomas Samberg's research, perhaps living shorter. They're real things that people think about, and those sort of studies aren't hard to do. They're quite cheap, and they just don't get done because that's not the sort of research that sadly our universities are putting out anymore. So, but we can get them done, and particularly if it means something to us and it's only a dollar or $2 and it gives a donation. And look, we'll talk about it more on the day, but I, I want to push it because we talk about the same 5, 6, 8 studies we use to say, look at this, and you know, they have thousands of nonsensical studies, but this is a real meaningful one. And so anyway, uh, we'll talk again about it. Nick, tonight is Q&A and you are going to be fielding some sticky questions.

Questions.

Oh, okay.

Can I have a nice look at them? So, but I am just looking at them right now. So yes, I'm happy.

Can I start? I'll start with one, okay? Because this one is a dog close to my heart. It's a client who can't get right, and lovely lad. The dog's name is Jackson and he's a lovely fella, but he suffers more in vomiting. So you've got your fancy scientific veterinary terms for that and we can get to that. But before we get— this dog suffers terrible when the gurgles hit him, when the tummy gurgles start kicking in. You know he's going to be doing a little morning vomit. People will say it's bile, so we'll talk about that. Is it bile or is it not? But before all that, there is a question here about all this. And the first one is like, explain to people the difference between vomiting and regurgitation. Is there a difference between those two things? And the follow-on is, are these dogs vomiting bile in the morning when you see that frothy puke before, before hunger pukes? So give us those three things. Vomiting or regurgitation. Vomiting, is that it? What's that frothy stuff? Yeah, can you give us a bit?

Okay, so vomiting is when you bring up a digested material from your stomach. Regurgitation is you're just bringing up pretty much undigested material from your stomach. So yeah, so regurgitation is just re-gurgle, it just comes back out as food.

Okay.

Whereas vomiting could be from stomach, could be stomach material, could be duodenal material in the early part of the small intestine. Yeah, so it's basically— and it's been mashed up and it's been mixed with acid. You know, if you vomit, you know, that when you've been hugging the toilet bowl and you vomit and you get that acid taste and it's that sour, sour smell, that's a vomit, okay? Because this is digested material that's coming up, whereas regurg is, it pretty much comes up, uh, uh, very quickly, like a mum coming back to her pups and she's bringing them— that would be regurgitating food. Yeah, precisely. That's so, that's, that's, that's the difference between those two. If you, if you're seeing bilious vomiting, there is a thing in veterinary medicine called bilious vomiting syndrome. And the classic signs are that the dog vomits maybe every morning, maybe once a week, twice a week, but it's a lot more frequently than you would like. And you get this frothy material. It can be yellowish frothy material from the bile. Yeah, from the duodenum. Yeah, so they're reaching, really reaching down and bringing up this material. And the great thing about bilious vomiting syndrome is that it will often respond to just feeding a significant meal at just before you go to bed. So most people, if they feed twice a day, they'll feed at maybe 8 in the morning, 7 or 8 in the morning, and they'll feed at 5 or 6 o'clock in the evening. And what I say to people is with that evening meal, you just split it in two and you continue to feed the dog at 5 or 6 because otherwise they think that, that, you know, you don't love them anymore, or the world has ended. But what you do is you take half of it, literally half. So you're not just giving up a little treat before bed, you're actually giving us a, a substantial meal. And that will cure many of these cases. If it does, you've got your diagnosis. It's classic, straight, simple Billious vomiting syndrome. And I would suggest you do that before you do anything else because it's dead easy to do. If you do that and you're feeding late and it's not making any difference, then it's not. You've got a vomiting type situation that happens to be in the morning. You see what I mean? Yeah, because Billious vomiting syndrome is basically the idea is that the stomach— and just to say it in very simple terms, the stomach hasn't got anything to do all night, and so it kind of churns and churns and churns. Then the dog wakes up in the morning. But why? Why?

Why this stuff? Why is this? Why? What's the kink?

I don't know. I don't know. But if you give them food, then the stomach has something to do through the night and it keeps it happy. And so you don't get this vomiting. And there's many a dog who comes to me with this, you know, oh, my dog's got a vomiting problem, vomiting problem, vomiting problem. They've seen the specialist and they've tried 6 different diets.

Yeah.

And I just say, split the evening meal or make sure that you feed something substantial at the end of the day. Boom, problem goes. Yeah.

Okay.

It can be as simple as that. So that would be a strong one. Have you tried that? I imagine you've tried that.

Yeah, I've tried that. And like, you know, I don't often announce what kind of Q&As we're doing for the day, for the night, because often, you know, I wouldn't know what's coming up. But this one, because the dog is close to my heart, I've tried that. I've tried the feeding regime. We've been messing around with that. I think my first bit was like, why is this happening? I don't think anybody knows, but I put it out to the people and the you can't beat 60,000 people for coming back with ideas. You know, I'm kind of— we were reared on science, and the more I get into science, the more I value anecdotal kind of answers. It's like nobody knows more about bilious vomiting than people that have gone through it with their dogs. They've tried everything, what worked. So I just put it out to them. I said, guys, have you experienced this? Post below. So I got— I divided into 6 ideas of what's worked for people, okay? And the first one, which is what Nick's just as well discussed, a bit grub before dinner and maybe getting the brekkie in early, that seems to work. Hasn't worked in this dog's case, sadly. So before bed, yeah, or maybe before bed, yeah, getting breakfast in early to preempt it, you know. So, um, okay, that's not working with this fella because his— he's really suffering, like, just gurgling, like it's, it's a noisy— and he's upset and he doesn't need his food. And it's like, what is this? Because we've, we've made leaps with this dog, but this is, this is the remnants of it. So here's a few more, uh, successful ones. The next one I'd put in digestive enzymes kind of category, possible pancreas, EPI, pancreatic insufficiency, lipex put in diet, which are just digestive enzymes, even a spoonful of yogurt, which two different people said before bedtime. So that would be the— well, the spoonful of yogurt, ignore that, that was my probiotic bit, the digestive enzymes. So pancreatitis. Do you see this as a symptom of EPI, pancreatitis, pancreatic insufficiency? Is that possible?

Well, pancreatitis is where you've got some degree of inflammation within the pancreas, okay? And so you need to try to get on top of that. It will often be because you've got inflammation in the gut itself, and you've got this— if you think of it, the pancreas comes out in sympathy with the gut. So if you've got a raging IBD, you can get a pancreatitis gastritis, which is secondary to the IBD, and sometimes the liver comes along and joins in the party as well. Okay, so, uh, the other side of it is where your pancreas just shuts down, and that's, uh, EPI— exocrine pancreatic insufficiency. Your pancreas, which is meant to produce the digestive enzymes, is not, and so you get very poor digestion, and then you get food, not, uh, broken down material, being dumped into the colon. You can get colitis and, and what have you. But in between those, or kind of maybe even linked to those, is something that I'm calling lazy pancreas syndrome. So you haven't got full-blown EPI where you just find it difficult to digest anything, but you haven't got fantastic pancreatic function. You're somewhere in between. Now, everybody, as they get older, all their organs work less efficiently. Your lungs, your heart, your liver, everything just kind of just slows down and ages. And that's really, really normal. Why shouldn't your pancreas do exactly the same? It's just that sometimes you see this kind of lazy pancreas syndrome in younger dogs where for some reason, possibly they've had maybe a virus which has attacked the pancreas, or there's been, yeah, maybe they've been on kibble and so they've had high blood triglycerides, and so they've been kind of flirting with very low-grade pancreatitis. And so the pancreas is just producing a wee bit less, a wee bit less of the pancreatic enzymes. I think it's an area that we don't know a lot, but for me, the lazy pancreas syndrome is quite a useful concept. And these are the guys where they can eat so much food, but if you give them even 10 grams more, they can't digest that extra material.

Can you see morning vomit coming from that? I mean, if it perturbs digestion, then if undigested material goes into the intestines, you're going to shift the gut flora because there's going to be different food available for different bacteria. And so you're going to get this IBS, IBD downstream effect of it because that really brings us on to the next one. How come probiotics work for some people? Probiotics, prebiotics, and a bit of garlic, those sort of additions focusing on the spoonfuls of yogurt, that seems to work for some people. And that, that will then move, shifts us down to the intestines lower down. And we're saying, okay, now it's a gut flora issue. If you've got gut flora issue, maybe an inflammatory issue. Issue. If you have an inflammatory issue, are you more likely to have vomiting? Does that make sense?

Yeah, it would do. But I mean, because all these things are tied together, you could say that if your pancreas is on a go slow, yeah, you've got lazy pancreas. That means you've got improper digestion. That means you've got a change in bugs. And if you've got that, you're going into IBD, which means you get some inflammatory change. And if your gut is inflamed, you can get gastritis because the stomach is just a pocket at the top of—

what's gastritis? An inflamed kind of stomach lining? Is that gastritis?

An inflamed stomach, yes. So that's gastritis. And if you've got the slightest bit— so you and I at the moment, I hope, have got zero gastritis. We can eat and it just goes down and there's no pain on eating, there's no heartburn, you know, that kind of heartburn sensation, or that, oh, every time I eat I get a little pain in my stomach and what have stomach, not abdomen, but stomach, then you could have, you know, gastric erosions. And God forbid you've got gastric ulceration. If you had gastric ulceration, you'd know about it. But if the stomach is unhappy in that it's slightly inflamed, it's going to be more reactive to food coming in or to the digestive process that it has to take place. It's going to maybe produce a little less acid, a little less pepsin.

And so Maybe if the stomach lining is a bit damaged and the dog, you know, they can get conditioned to breakfast and dinner coming, Pavlov's dogs where you ring the bell and they drool. But also all that gurgling and squirting you hear in a normal dog before breakfast is the release of acids and enzymes into his tummy in expectation of the meal. And so I wonder, is it that he knows breakfast is coming and his stomach is starting to get ready but his stomach is not well and his stomach isn't right. And so it's more— it suddenly starts to bring up acids and enzymes go into that stomach. They're poorly prepared for it. And they bring it up instead of letting it sit. Would that be a protective mechanism of the stomach?

Well, it's that whole thing about anticipatory anxiety. It's the classic is if the dog eats at 5 o'clock on the nose every afternoon, and it means that from 2 o'clock, at 2 o'clock, we think, oh, 3 hours till we eat and then 3 o'clock, oh, it's only 2 hours, and so you get this anticipation, anticipation, okay? And if you don't feed them bang on 5 o'clock, then the stomach is churning, the acid is going because they're waiting for the food because they've been conditioned, like Pavlov told us, to expect this food. And these would be the classic hunger pukes, yeah, okay? And the way to get around that is to vary the meals. So So to investigate whether it's some kind of anticipatory that, I don't know, breakfast is too late for this guy Jackson, you just for 1 or 2 days, you feed him really early and see if that makes any difference out of the blue. Yeah, you feed him at 5 AM, 6 AM if he's normally fed at 8 AM. So that's playing into it. It normally happens in the afternoon. Yeah, because the gut is usually very happy to be settled overnight. It just goes into quiet phase. And so that is worth looking at. So you'd be looking at pancreatic function, you'd be looking at inflammation. Why have you got inflammation? There's several reasons. Have we got a bit of gastritis? I've actually just come across a German product, so I'll let you just have a chat.

I'm going to promote my own product while you're doing that. Everybody in the comments on the side, I'm not sure if everybody watching this can see the comments. I think this is a YouTube YouTube thing or Facebook, I'm not sure. But everybody is talking about slippery elm and/or marshmallow. Marshmallow root and slippery elm do essentially the same thing. Marshmallow root is probably a more sustainable form of that. Slippery elm comes from places where you harvest the tree, the tree dies. So the marshmallow root does the same thing. And what it does is it adds mucilage, that snot on the inside of your gut lining. It adds more of that on to everywhere, to your lungs, but mainly your guts. And so it really helps. That's where your gut flora live. And so it's— if you, if you're suffering an intestinal kind of issue and your guts are on fire, it's a great idea to try that slippery elm marshmallow. Check out the comments on the side, there's loads of dosage ideas. People are putting in lots of it into water, letting the dog drink it if he wants, and that's great. The thing that I would add to that is German chamomile. Chamomile is called mother of the gut, and it talks about anti-inflammatory of the gut. It's unbelievable. Antispasmodic, it's going to be good for any of these sort of gut issues, I use it as a bandage. I mix those two together. That's that product there, BioFunctionate. It's a, it's a popular gut product, that with a few seaweeds which are anti-inflammatory and nutritious. So, but really the core of that product is marshmallow root and chamomile. But if you just sell marshmallow root and chamomile, people don't really believe in it. So you give it a fancy name and you wrap it up. So any products like that are great. Anything that uses slippery elm, marshmallow, or chamomile I would definitely give that a shot to see if it's kind of gut-related. Yeah, but yeah, Nick, what were you going to say?

That is exactly where this is coming from as well. Can you see that? Sally Tegrin will kill me if that's backwards. Can you read it?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so it's exactly the same thought. It's basically kind of a gastric bandage. So rather than using omeprazole, which is to reduce the stomach acid, you're putting in material to help the lining of the stomach, as you just described. So this one contains dill tincture, it contains psyllium, your friend psyllium.

Yeah.

Chamomile, as you rightly say, and marshmallow. But it actually, it does the same thing and it's in a very fine— so I'm going to be using that kind. I do use Biofunction 8. I've got it up on the, uh, on the, on the, yeah, uh, shelf there. Have you tried those products with Jackson?

I'm not quite sure about BioFunk Shake with Jackson, but I'd be surprised if I hadn't pushed that at this stage. And there's two more ideas here that I'm going to just go through because the comments are coming flying in now and getting more ideas. And so that was a slippery marshmallow. We talked a bit about probiotics. Maybe one lady came on and said she's very confident it's fat-related and that a higher fat diet will cause it. Now, this is interesting because and, you know, maybe that's the case because it happens to Dudley sometimes. He'll puke in the morning, there'll be a bit of puke on the ground. Very, very now and again it can happen. And I often think, is it fat related? Have I taken my eye off the ball? Was I feeding the wrong diet? He's susceptible to a few little proteins, he's not keen on some. And so I often think, is it food related that's caused this to the dog? And usually when dogs are suffering this, they're coming to you with an IBD, IBS diagnosis, their guts are shot, you know, and this is just one of the fires that you have to put out, but it's often the one that you're left with. It's often one that I've got sort of all these other things, but here's this vomiting still. So the fat thing is interesting, and what this person recommends— I'm sorry, I didn't take her name— Nora Lens does the mono-feeding website, mono-feeding Facebook group. But she says, yeah, no, she's had great success with moving dogs to ultra-lean diets. I'm only spitting this idea out, I have no idea if it works, but it's something to try if you're up against the wall. Move to a very, very lean dog food. So that would be, you know, at least 4 parts protein to 1 part fat, very, very lean. You know, most raw dog food is fairly— it's kind of 50/50 on the energy front with protein and fat. The fat content is quite high compared to what dogs would normally eat, which is quite lean animals. So you might move to a very lean diet. One more, Nick, because you could tell us about this. Two people said homeopathic Bell Nocils all day. Somebody said so. Homeopathic diagnosis all day. What does that mean? No, as in all day, they— they're— that's what you should do, as in so useful.

Yeah, I mean, the bowel notions. But then you can just— you can go really simple. Yeah, um, Samuel Hahnemann 200 years ago was using Nux vomica, he was using Lycopodium, uh, he was using Phosphorus to help with liver, he was using Iris fascicula for to support pancreas. Okay, it was only about the 1920s that the bowel nosodes— but very much, I've got a great book here, sorry guys, by one of the old mentors, Bowel Nosodes in Homeopathic Practice. They're pretty simple, and you can just use kind of a formulaic approach to the use of them. So bowel nosodes are definitely something to to think about. Nora Lentz is saying absolutely, and she's absolutely right, inflammation would have the same underlying causes as bile vomiting. It doesn't cause anything because they are concurrent symptoms. Yeah, Nora, we are absolutely all about getting to the key, the base of the problem. Yeah, and so we're looking to heal the gut, we're looking to heal the microbiome, to reduce inflammation But we're just exploring the, the broader approach. Did—

yeah.

And I, I imagine you've done food trials.

Yeah, you've done— we've done all like this. We're way past all that. We're way past— like, I've done everything I can with diet.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it's diet. It isn't— and I, I like— I would have thought it's not— it's not like some sort of mysterious— like, this lady's gone through an exclusion diet to beat the band. And also, we're using lean enough food, but it's not the leanest diet I've ever made. I didn't think that was necessary. It's something to try. But look, I think hopefully we've gone through 5 big categories of things there, so hopefully that's given people some idea, because this is a really big issue. I mean, Facebook lit up when we mentioned it. I mean, we're 33 minutes in and we've only done, you know, vomiting questions. Yeah, I have lots more. There's one put there by Rodney. Did you see Rodney? He was the first one who put— advertised the Q&A. And Ronnie said, how you doing? Rodney, have you been from Canada? And he puts up a little wavy, wavy color emoji. He always used these little emojis, they make me smile. And when he says Canada, I put Canadian flag. And he says, like, I've got a question, it's more philosophical. What would— what biscuit would you be if you mixed— if Bren and Nick and Conor were ingredients? Okay, bye, let me know. Bye, Rodney. I thought that was very funny. People come up with some good ideas. I only picked out two, but I like Coconut Dream Cookie, I have to say, that was very good. But the one that got the most likes was a Snickerdoodle, and I thought, a Snickerdoodle, that is a good name for a biscuit that contains the lads. So yes, Snickerdoodle. Tools. There was many, many other questions that came up. Nick, have you got one that you want to do, or do you want me just to share it?

Oh, there's loads. I've got some, I've got some from Patreon just here, uh, and I will just grab them. Uh, there we go. Okay, so, um, Michelle has come along and, and said, uh, tapeworms! I found them in the stools of one of my dogs using Vermex. Vermex, apple cider vinegar, garlic, pumpkin seeds, throwing everything at it. Had a negative count 3 months ago, definitely no fleas. Should I be supporting the gut with anything else? And added in, can't get Vermex in him, now using grapefruit seed extract. Okay, so do you want to have a go at that?

Did she— it's just to read that, start that question. Did she clear the tapeworm issue using natural methods, or did she say she's passed the tapeworm, she used a chemical napalm, which many people do, not criticizing it, and now we're using worm preventatives? Because I often—

what she's saying, I think what she's saying is 3 months ago, dog was absolutely clear, and now for some reason with no fleas, no, no anything else, and she's throwing all these things at the dog, why are— why she's still got tapeworms?

Okay, yeah, okay. So look, looking into the— at least if just the literature to support natural preventatives, it's very hit and miss. These are not studies that companies do. They don't want these studies out there. These aren't studies that universities do because they're not paid to do them. And so we don't get these studies. They're not are, and the ones that are done are very hit and miss. They're not like, you know, 100 dogs in crates. As much as people don't want to hear it, it's the study you want. And they're not even pet dogs using these remedies versus, say, you know, chemical napalm. So we don't have those studies. And often when a natural treatment works, from garlic to pumpkin seeds to— usually they are isolating the compound such as cucurbitacin, which is the compound in pumpkin seeds. Kynic acid, which is the compound in red seaweed, on and on and on. They isolate that compound 'cause they know it has a pretty big role in this anti-helminthic activity. And then they give it to dogs as an extract and quite a dose. And you're left thinking, would giving some pumpkin seeds to your dog now and again have the same effect as isolating that compound and whacking dogs with it? So the answer's probably no. So that's why I think natural preventives, I use the word preventive, I'd say it sets the environment to make it very unpalatable for worms to get hold. It doesn't mean that they're— it's going to prevent them all. I mean, poo happens, and that's just the way it is. Dogs eat everything, you know, so that's just gonna happen, your dog. But it's rarer than I even thought coming into this. I mean, I just— you just don't hear many dogs getting worms. So I think when I've talked to anybody, the veterinary herbalists, you know, the next level of using herbs is going for GFSE, grapefruit seed extract, wormwood, black walnut hull. I mean, these are harder, more effective, and have more evidence behind them, but I kind of wouldn't put them into a product too easily myself. I wouldn't go willy-nilly. I would probably just contact a veterinary herbalist. Type in veterinary herbalist online, Holistic Hound in Ireland, Holistic Hound in the UK, whoever. You type it in, and these guys have thought way more about it than you have. They've looked at all the research, and they've produced to use the products, and that might be a more effective way of clearing tapeworms than you muddling around in the dark. And they'll hold your hand, and you get— you buy something off them, you get their email now, and you're talking to them. How would you do it? What's a large dose? Because I want to clear this. So that's good advice before I would go for chemical napalm. But maybe there's always an argument for it. Nick, you might be able to tell us, is there a safe one that you use, or what's your advice for, for tapeworms?

For— well, in this particular situation, because there's lots of different reasons, I'd say, how come I presume the dog has been negative for a while and then all of a sudden now has got the tape. So what's changed in the gut? I presume you're feeding a great, fantastic raw diet. I presume the poos are in great shape, you know, most of the time, like most healthy dogs. And I presume there's been no other major effect. I'll tell you a story about 7 or 8 years ago. Lady rang me, she'd been using the products for years and never ever had a problem with worms at all with her horse. Yeah, it's a horse, it's not a dog, but bear with me. And she said, all of a sudden we've got loads of red worms, not tapeworms, but just red worms, but it's a similar principle. And, and so I said, okay, so what's the difference between the last time you tested and now? And she said, well, there's no change. The food is the same, the field is him and everything. And then she said, oh, hang on, about a month ago a dog got into the field and chased the, the, this older mare around the field for half an hour.

Okay.

And I said, I think that's probably what it is. It was a massive stress event. There was a massive cortisol overload. And lo and behold, you had an immunosuppressive effect. Because my experience is that the, the, the, the, the vermex doesn't work on its own. It works when your immune system is in great shape. So if you've got pain, or if you've got some other inflammatory process going on, it's not going to work as well. It doesn't do your homework for you. When you use pharmaceutical, it does all the work. Vermex works with your body, or any herbal product, you know, there are other, other herbal products that you can get. So So I would say that I'd be looking peripheral to just the gut, just the worms, and just saying what might have changed. So with that in mind, a combination of a good dose of vermex, good dose of apple cider vinegar, good dose of garlic, freshly ground pumpkin seeds every single day, freshly ground every single day, that is. That really should do the trick. Putting in the grapefruit seed extract as well is a great idea there. I have cleared persistent Giardia with that kind of regime as well as tapeworms. Okay, because we get these questions periodically, and all you need to do is just really go to town on these things. But remember, don't just think of the gut. You've got to think, have we got pain? Is the dog, you know, coming on with Cushing's disease? Is the dog— has the dog got some other problem somewhere else in the body? Low thyroid disease, for example. Jean Dodds talks a lot about low thyroid disease. So it— because sometimes when the worms— the worms will take advantage of a suppressed immune system. And so if you are seeing the worms come up, you've just got to think a little bit more broadly there.

If you can't get Vermex liquid in Oh, is it just Nick or is it me? Am I still on?

Long-term basis.

Yeah, very good. Sorry, Nick, you cut out there, or I cut out. I'm not sure who did that.

Oh, I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

That's okay, that's okay. Um, okay, so, uh, there's some— these are great comments coming down the side I was like, bloody hell, people are clued in today. I mean, 10 years ago you could say stuff and people go, oh my God, dogs can eat blackberries? Can't put a post like that anymore. It's just like we've moved on here. Somebody's made a, Lucy made a comment there about ZooPharmacose. You know, you mentioned quite a lot of herbs there, quite a lot of additions to hit the tapeworm. And wearing my tiny ZooPharmacose hat, which I don't know, I know very little about it, but would it be a case where maybe the dog might know which one of those is best? And is it that maybe you offer them out like separate and kind of say, here buddy, which one of these do you want? I wonder would the dog select which one it needs, and that would be really putting zoopharmacology to the test. Does the dog know it's imbalanced and it knows which thing to eat? Because this lady recently said, she discovered, I discovered my dog had tapeworm through a zoopharmacology session with calendula oil. You know, that's amazing. Like, it's like, oh, I just discovered you had tapeworm because you were selecting calendula Angel oil. I mean, that's amazing. There's so much stuff out there I don't know. It's, it's frustrating. Um, yeah, it's brilliant. Then she says—

yeah, sorry, after you, after you.

She said, then I treated her chemically. Sorry. It's like, you never need to be sorry because like, you got worms, you know. So that's something normally people might want to reach for. Have you any advice for someone that might want to use a product? Is there, is there a product that's the safer type in your head that might napalm the baddies Well, I think the black walnuts and the wormwoods of this world make me nervous because they are a lot—

the range of dosing where most dogs are going to be safe is much narrower. Yeah, so you've got to get your dosing right, but then you've got to think, right, what are the idiosyncratic reactions that the dog may have to this herb? So I've— and I can honestly say I've never used wormwood, never used, um, uh, black walnut and those more toxic elements. They do in the States because they have to deal with heartworm and what have you, but in this country I find that just using a variation of Vermex, apple cider vinegar, garlic, pumpkin seed, yeah, grapefruit seed extract, but also diatomaceous earth can be very useful. And I will usually use that in my formulae And we have cleared tapes using that. With my conventional hat on, I have to say, if you've got tapes and your dog is ill, then you should see your vet to discuss pharmaceutical, pharmaceutical options. However, the other thing is, if you're seeing tapeworms come out, it may be that you're actually winning because they're actually coming out. So I would say carry on doing what you're doing. Make sure you've got— you're maxing out with all of those things. Get some, some diatomaceous earth in there, and then, um, you may find that those tapeworms, you know, peter out.

Penny Vander Mu, uh, she says full moon is on Friday, so whip out the pumpkin seeds, ACV, garlic, and DE. I mean, that's cool, the full moon thing. I will never criticize it again because I criticized eyes in front of the wrong person, Anna Heimborgman from Helsinki. And she said, what, what do you know? Like, I was laughing at her. She goes, what do you know about the full moon and the effects on people? And I was like, very little. And she goes, exactly, you know. So it's like, you know, we all used to breed in time with the full moon. Don't forget, we come from the sea, and that's, that's a very popular thing to happen in sea. And all the whole heap of other effects, it's a whole gravitational pull. You'll feel it in your joints and all this kind of stuff. So how interesting that there's a parasite linked to full moons of not the first time I've heard that, and I'd love to know more about it. Nick probably has a book recommendation, I suppose. Are you dying to say something?

I, I am dying to say something. So number one is, is Rudolf Steiner. I went to Rudolf Steiner School when I was, uh, very young, and he has had, uh, he came up with, uh, biodynamic farming, and they will plant and reap and treat for worms and what have you according to the, uh, the phase of the moon, the seasons, um, and the planets as well. Biodynamic farming. I haven't got a book, but it's really, really interesting. The guy to, to look at is a guy called Charlie Arnott, who's an Australian farmer. He does a, he does a podcast called The Regenerative Journey. Forgive me if you're Australian. That was my Australian via Mumbai accent. But he's very, very big, and he works with a guy called Hamish— someone, another Australian— and they do biodynamic workshops for Australian farmers up and down Australia, and it's going great guns. It really is.

So I love that there really is something in Nick, do you know how to work the technology of moving over to Patreon, or should we just do another 10 minutes? Great, we just stay. I think everyone's getting the bonus 10 minutes. I've, uh, I have another one here for you. Uh, okay, um, dog eating soil, I think we've covered that quite a number of times now. Um, but, uh, you know, grass eating, it's always been mentioned 2 or 3 times. I think I just want to touch on something else. There's, uh, 2 people asked this question and the vets at the moment are worried that raw is causing neurological issues. And I have a very short answer for that. I said I really think that that is something from 5 years ago. It was a study from Melbourne, which, anyway, veterinary department in Melbourne, and it was related to this APN, a potential neurological issue from dogs eating chicken. There was an enormous number of things wrong with that study. We tried to contact the authors. It was not, not good science, and that's just, that's just a fact. I've written an article on it. Chicken, raw chicken does not cause paralysis in dogs. The usual people went to town on it, and you know, let's face it, SkeptVet and a few others post their articles. And since then, how many cases of APN from raw chicken? Zero. Zero cases since then. It's just utter nonsense that they spit out now and again. So I think my point was about— the reason I bring it up is that when when somebody says, you know, we suspect there may be neurological issues from eating raw, we just go, well, what's the science? Have you got a study? Can I see the study? Because if you ever— if somebody like Nick or Bren says there may be a link, it's because they've read a few studies and it makes kind of scientific sense before they go saying things online and kind of scaring people away from something. So if you ask these people, they will come up with a study and they'll be happy to share it with you and say, you know, this is the concern we have. As opposed to a rumor. And so I think, you know, you can always ask today, just have you got a study? Have you seen something recent? Have you an article online, some Vet Times magazine you can direct me to that they've— the recent studies come out? You know, let's have a look at the figures behind that because it tends to scare people and it just brings up brutal studies from, from years ago that have no point. They have no, um, role at all, you know. So, um, anyway, that— I just thought I'd mention that to people.

You can always ask for the study, ask for However, you did present some stuff in Helsinki on some neurological issues which was subsequent to feeding a certain type of, of dried food. Do you want to just tell us this, tell us the story there and a little bit of the background? Like the Australian police dogs?

Oh yeah, that was Karen actually. Well, that was in my book initially, but, um, what led that was a TED Talk. That was megaesophagus. That was, um, those police. Yeah, it was a, um, yeah, so, um, that was a— they still don't know what it is, but a toxin that was in pet food was in Mars Dermal Care pet food that this Latvian vet discovered. And, uh, that was not acted upon by the world. And, uh, this microbiologist was not, uh, humored. Really, let's say, treading delicately. Watch her TED Talk. I spoke the truth and lost my job or something like that. I'll put up a link on Facebook actually because it's a real doozy to watch. It's a TED, great TED Talk. When it kicked off was 2 years later when Sydney police dogs had a problem and 8 police dogs came down with megaesophagus. So there goes your whole, it was just a genetic issue, which people thought up until that point because when 8 dogs come down in the same kennels, you know you've an environmental factor. And they said, oh, we're feeding Mars DermaCare. And they said, oh well, look at all this vet work that the Latvian vet was doing, saying that Mars Dermal Care product— I like saying Mars Dermal Care, by the way, because it was Mars Dermal Care, and so it was proven, so there's not anything I can get sued for here. And so they found that that was the product. But yeah, talk about neurological issues. I mean, if you're gonna have neurological concerns, there is a number of things we could talk about that raw food can help with. You know, there's just so many angles. You could just be all day talking about inflammation and the role that has on nasty chemicals and ages and, you know, mycotoxins. There's just so many things that can negatively affect your brain and behavior, the lack of bioactive compounds, omega-3, like, come on, vitamins and minerals, anything. So it's a bit of a video. So always ask the person for their sources. Let's do another question. Do you want to do another question from Patreon, Nick?

Yeah, let's absolutely do that. But just to say, she was a pathologist, a veterinary pathologist in Latvia. She noticed this association. She went to her superiors and they said, don't even talk about it. And I think she may have even lost her job, but she did, she did publicize it. And then the Australian dogs who were being fed the same foods, they came down with it, and that corroborated.

2 years later, 2 years later. Can you imagine the amount of dogs that went around with megasophagus? Could you imagine those people's lives are changed because because ask Karen, anything to do with that kind of— suddenly your dog has to be fed in a sitting up position for the rest of its life, can't drink water normally, and you're nursing that dog. Nobody's going to help you. So that's a big, big issue. And they left it go for 2 years. Why would anybody let that happen? It's like, if we suspect it and she had all the evidence, she nailed it down, they were trying to find out the exact toxin that was causing it, and they said stop your research. They pulled her funding. So that's a very dark story. We'll share it on Facebook. Here's a good one from Michelle. Michelle always has a good one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know bone meal and ground eggshell aren't great sources of calcium, but I've heard about people pureeing the really soft cooked bones from bone broth and adding that back to the food. How do you feel, Nick?

I think that's not a bad idea. I think that's not a bad idea, really, except with the bone broth, the idea is you get all the minerals out into the— yeah, into the solution. You're not going to get loads out, but what you are going to get is a big, big old hit of cartilage. Yeah, there is. It is going to be— it's going to be full of minerals still. And so I'm pretty happy with that. I would be using bone broth and the soft bones which are put in the blender. Yeah, I'm really excited about that. That's a great idea.

Do you know what? It's not the first time I thought about it. I think Judy Morgan started started, popped her head above the parapet maybe a few months ago, and she started saying, look guys, you know, well-pureed raw dog food, you know, cooking that is not going to introduce bone fragments into your dog's gut. She's going to digest that perfectly well because it's so small and it's easy to digest. Now, for some raw dog foods that have too much bone in them, and we all know them, let's face it, your dog ends up pooing white chalk or yellow poos, too much calcium. And when you cook that, it might be even harder to digest, and whatever, but I don't think it's going to damage the dog the way we associate cooked splinters of bone. So this idea of soft bones, the thing is what we're really worried about is Maillard reactions, and that occurs over 110, 120 degrees where protein and sugar really get it on, and that's a big problem. So cooking on a barbecue and frying on a pan, that will make your bone turn to very hard brittle mass, but boiling and particularly simmering, making bone broth is only 90 degrees. So you're just making the bone gooey, and you've removed a lot of the fat and cool stuff, and that goes into the broth. But what you're left behind is a heap of collagen, which is not easy to digest, but it's not bad. It's better than having no collagen. You need some in your diet. Cats are getting none. They need huge amounts, and they're getting none in their dry food. And so, but they're also— it's a source of calcium. It's a great source of calcium. So, and I don't know if it's any better or worse than eggshells, but I mean, I'd say it's far more nutritious because there's more stuff in bones and leaching it out with simmering. So I think it's quite a novel, quite a cool idea. I can't see how it's a problem.

I can't see how it's a problem at all, because bones are a problem because they can cause perforations and things like that. They rarely, rarely do, but that's the worry. And the worry is that a cooked bone is really very indigestible and can really cause perforation. So that's really it. But if you've got soft bones, it's impossible for a soft bone, soft gooey cartilaginous material to cause perforation, isn't it, really?

Yeah.

So I think it's a really great idea. The other idea that sparks in my mind is about kind of recycling gooey stuff is, you know, the Yakchews?

Yeah.

Fantastic things. The Yak bars, they're basically just kind of dehydrated yak milk. I don't know how they make them, but it's, you know, really, really clever stuff. It kind of scares me when they get down to the end.

Yeah.

Because they're about the size of an avocado pit or a walnut.

I think the same thing.

And they can get stuck here. So I always used to say to people, as soon as you get down to anything about, you know, the size that is swallowable size, you've got to get rid of it. And somebody came to me online and just said, oh, what I do with mine. And I can't remember the detail, but it was something like what she does, she, she collects up 2 or 3 of these when they're too— they become swallowable size. And I think she just boils them up together with a little bit of water and they all kind of googe in together. And, and I think she then kind of, uh, dries them out and they've got this, this whole new brand new yak bar. Yeah, so I think the 40%, you know, the 40% of food material that is grown on farms across the globe, 40% is wasted. Yeah. Wow. It's either damaged in the cropping process or it's damaged in transport or it's damaged in the restaurant or it's damaged or you forget it in the fridge. And so it all goes in the bin in the West. That's where the waste goes. And so anything we can do to reduce waste, I think is a good thing.

Yeah, totally, totally. I mean, there are like little bins for my table scraps. I just love giving everything to Dotty. He eats absolutely everything. He really does. I mean, I'm no purist, as everybody knows, but he does get all my bits and pieces. But it's great not having to worry, can you have the fat off the steak? Of course he can't. The dog is absolutely bulletproof. So it's not the steak, there's not a bit of fat off the steak that's going to hurt his pancreas. A lot of people there are saying you can microwave the end of your yak bar. I've never, I've never even touched a yak bar, but they— you can microwave the end of them and they puff up again to their full size.

So maybe that's what it was. Maybe we found that out.

Who found that out? It's like, I'm gonna put this in the microwave and see what happens. I mean, people are great. Um, okay, look, that was a good one. I like that cooked bone conversation because that's a nice little hot topic. It's a nice little hot potato. Brilliant.

It's brilliant.

Um, let's see, um, one more from— actually, you know what, I'm just gonna go back to this other page. Um, yeah, look, somebody said, so somebody said in Patreon, how to detox a dog. Um, I think we should definitely do a whole show on that.

We should maybe ask, uh, you know, yeah, Yeah, he's booked, he's booked, he's booked.

He's booked.

Yeah, well, he wants to do cancer. I think he's gonna, he's gonna come and talk about cancer because he does a lot of cancer cases, fantastic ideas, vitamin D and things like that. So he's going to be in, in a month or two-ish.

Yeah.

And then after that, we'll, we'll say, right, where can we go with the, with the detox? Because it's a big fluffy and can be a little bit Yeah, definitely.

It's a word that's thrown around a lot, but that's not to say that there isn't decent, uh, as, as Bren likes to talk about that book Toxic by Neil whatever his name is, um, it— that's a— that there is solid, solid kind of stuff behind it. And so I saw Habib sharing a few bits and pieces on, actually quite, quite useful as well, so he might be handy. Um, so yeah, that detox, we will, we will definitely hit that in a full show because I want to have a nice a nice little root around and see what I can find there. You know, spirulina is unbelievable, and bentonite clay and morrowlight clay, which is essentially the same stuff, but they're really good for, for adsorbing bodies. Absorbing is where they bring it in, and adsorbing, it sticks to the outside. So there is a difference. And so, so there is a lot of senses, and it's like, if you, if you're eating a lot of, you know, predatory fish and you're high in mercury, you can get that out of your body, and you do it by doing a detox with various bits and bobs. So I want to learn about that. I know nothing about it. Uh, so yeah, anyway, doesn't Jane Buxton—

I think Jane Buxton goes into a thing about mercury. If not, I can find some stuff. There are one or two compounds that you can use for helping to, uh, get rid of the, the mercury. I've, I've read various contradictory statements on that. But yeah, let's find out because mercury fillings. Yeah, yeah. You know, for 100 years, I mean, what the madness of putting mercury in people's mouths.

I've got them in my jaw. Do you know Rita Hogan was saying, the legendary canine herbalist, she was getting her mercury fillings out. I thought, I said, I thought you couldn't get that done. And she goes, a specialist can do it. But you have to have be very kitted out for it. Be very prepared. There's all sorts of things you have to go through because even touching it can release mercury. So I'm thinking like, I've got a mouthful of it, a mouthful of mercury, and it's safest when it's not being annoyed. And I'm like, but I'm chewing stuff all the time, and yeah, you know, I'm always with a toothpick in my mouth, and I actually have one in my hand as I speak. So like, you know, now, have you got, have you got mercury fillings?

No, I had mine out.

Did you? Oh, uh, nice.

Uh, I did as a kid, you know, because that was the fashion in the '70s and the '80s. Sorry for showing my, uh, buccal cavity to everybody. But yeah, I was speaking to, speaking to somebody the other day, and she said that she had a, a bite guard, you know, because she was, she was chewing, which is another way of releasing mercury. And on her bite guard where her mercury fillings were, there was a black area on the white bite guard. No. So every— because everybody says, oh, it's, it's benign, it just sits there, it doesn't do anything. I'm sorry, it will gradually leach in time. Not very much, but you don't need very much.

You don't need much of that to be very toxic indeed. And can you get your— can you get like— is it easy to get Neil, thanks, Leslie. Toxic by Neil Nathan. Yes, that's an easy name to remember. So he wouldn't— Neil Nathan is obsessed about mycotoxins. And so I like that because there's so much to it. And like studies show, kibble suffers terribly from mycotoxins. In the US, they can transport the grain to pet food companies in open, open trucks so it can just rain and the elements can fall on the grain. And which is the way mycotoxins grow. So that's why we have silos and it always has to be covered. You can't let the moisture out because this fungus that grows on it, it's a type of that, that green fungus you see on the peanuts in your bird feeder if the birds haven't been out. Highly toxic stuff, so particularly for your cats and dogs. But dry studies of dry-fed dogs show that they did much higher these mycotoxins. There's no grain in raw dog food, so, but it's that what it produces, it produces this little aflatoxin and vomitoxin. And these are the most carcinogenic substances we have on the earth. And they're so carcinogenic, there's a great story about Mars again, where there was— yeah, no, it was in the courts. And the staff took this Mars company to task because there was phosphine gas alarms in the factory. And The initial question is phosphine gas. It's like, that's what they used in World War II to do terrible things. And it's like, why would there be phosphine gas? Why would you need alarms? You know, I mean, how much phosphine gas is in your food production facility? And what they were doing was they were using— as the story goes, I'll just say allegedly because I'm not fully sure how this court case went— but they were using phosphine gas to clear the grain as it came out of the open trucks because mycotoxins are covered in mold and phosphine gas will kill mold. It'll kill anything.

Anything.

So yeah, and the core case were the fact that these guys weren't masked up. They were just spraying phosphine gas on the grain and then making pet food out of it. So I'll say all allegedly because I'm not quite sure how that went, but it's very clear in my book if anybody wants.

The place to go for that is Susan Thicke's Pixon. Remember Susan Pixon came along to the Raw Feeding Veterinary Society 2018 or so?

Never forget that talk.

And, and she told that talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She actually— that talk, Nick, was about tularemia, and she was wearing a t-shirt, 'Got tularemia?' question mark, like got milk, got tularemia. And tularemia is this bacteria that is just incredibly dangerous. It'd be like, you know, Ebola-type level of scary if you have it. And, uh, there was— yeah, and tularemia, check out her articles on it. There's 2 or 3 unbelievable articles on it. And the factory, when they started coming on, when she started putting the pressure on, the factory was shut down and concreted over. Concreted over. I mean, when you're concreting over a facility, you are— you really scare people.

Yeah, yeah, you are.

Oh, that was a dark one.

Burying the bodies. Where'd you get thalaremia? Just give us 1 minute. Meat because I'm gonna have to run.

Uh, like, honestly, I wouldn't be your expert on it, but it's from extreme— it's an extremely hazardous pathogenic pathogen of, of rancid meat. So it's a, it's a, it's, it's something that you hear coming up from the permafrost in Siberia or something. It's like, it's so rare but it's so incredibly lethal. And if you've got it, you've got serious traceability issues. But the problem was that there was a lack of admission and people were going home to their families and spreading it, and they and they were going for help and they're saying no, there's no issues, so they're going back to their families. And you know, so that's just, you know, any— if you don't immediately drop everything you're doing and sort it out, which is rare these big companies ever do that. So, uh, all of that allegedly, I suppose. I'll keep on saying allegedly because I don't want to be sued. But, um, yeah, it's, uh, some dark, dark stuff again from the same, you know.

And I'm gonna say thanks very much to Karen for putting on the, uh, the Eventbrite link. Yeah, to the Manchester on the 2nd of December, and that's really, really great. Fiona says we should get Susan Thixton on. Yes, we haven't spoken to her. Yeah, yeah, let's get her on. That would be really great. Good thought, Fiona. Sandra says, oh, how'd you spell tularemia? I haven't got a clue.

No clue. Looks good, Sandra, you've made a good effort. Yeah, yeah, I can't improve on Sandra Lawrence's. Uh, you know what, let's get Susan on and ask her to do the tularemia story. That was an unbelievable talk. That was— and she also did the pet food project where she took, uh, I love the way she did it to keep her hands clean because everyone's taking shots at her, uh, she ordered the 12 pet foods from 3 or 4 online suppliers and just sent them straight to the lab. And so give us the results, lab, and she can publish that because I didn't touch the food, so there's no bias there whatsoever. And her results, just type in the big pet food results in fact, I'll share that as well. I'll share the TED Talk and I'll share Susan Thixen's pet food results. Check out the stuff she found. I mean, in one of the kidney products, there was 7 times the amount of calcium in, in one of the kidney products for urinary issues. 7 times one of the things you've got to be careful with. Uh, like, it's just crazy, crazy revelations. Never mentioned, pushing under the carpet, you know. Focus on Raw. Danger, danger. Um, anyway guys, that was, that was great. Nick, thank you so much for all that. You've shared a lot of that. Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, it was really good. Really good.

We'll be back next week with God knows what. I don't even know what the fuck. Yeah, what's the plan?

Sorry Patreon that we couldn't do something special for you, but we just thought we'd, we'd share the love. But the real answer is we can't. You— we can't work.

Yeah, because Bren isn't here.

So yeah, it is Yeah, that was a— it was a good chat. It was really nice.

It's funny, isn't it, when you give over the— when you give over the, the handling of the technical stuff, uh, you just very quickly you get out of the routine of having to do it. It's like, you know, I just go to the airport now following Elaine with the bags, and she's got everything. And it's like, now when I have to travel on my own, I'm like, Elaine, I'm on my own, I'm having a good time. I just got lost and my phone's run out of battery, and I was like a child. I'm just just like calling her from the airport going, I hate traveling by myself. Like, I've lost all, uh, ability to be—

he's not exaggerating, guys. I've actually—

I'm really not. An absolute disaster. It's just like, found in the corner, could somebody come to Lost and Found to pick up Conor, please?

Uh, found crying in the corner. Does anybody own this child?

I mean, this gentleman in spare pants. But, uh, yeah, anyway, uh, okay, we will see you all next week. Yeah.

All the best, everybody. Thank you very, very much. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye. Did you stop it, Nick? Oh, he's gone. I'm going too then. Bye-bye.