RawPetMedics Tuesday live

Good evening, everybody. Good evening, Brendan, and your glass of wine. Good evening, Rhys.

Hello.

I'm gonna say happy birthday, Fiona, before we go any further. Um, I hope you're enjoying a small glass of vino, um, as we, uh, start this evening's, um, nutcracker, literally, of, uh, conversation.

Very good. I can't see anybody joining, Brent. Oh, Rach Mac, there she is. There she is.

So jumpy. So, so just to let you guys know, I have got control this evening. I will be making sure that they don't mess up. We've kicked Conor to look after his kids so that literally he can't mess it up this week. Uh, so bless him, I'm sure he'll be back next week. Uh, and Nick is under control right down the bottom there.

Yes, yes, yes. Um, listen, it's, it's great to be here. And speaking about a really kind of prescient and, uh, timely subject, so it's really, really great. And the person of the moment for this subject is Lise Hansen, Dr. Lise Hansen. I met her, who authored this amazing book, The Complete Book of Cat and Dog Health, which will be a prize at the RPM edutainment party, call it what you like, on the 2nd of December in Manchester. And if I get a second, I'll read out some of the games that we're going to play. But in the morning we're doing lectures, and in the afternoon we're going to do a big Q&A, and then we're going to play some kind of foodie, animaly, let's have some fun kind of games. So that's great, Lise. You're very welcome to come along to that if you would like to come along. But your books are going to be one of the prizes, and that's amazing. Thank you. Really want to say Thank you very much to all our Patreon supporters. You can, you can find us on Patreon, on patreon.com/rawpetmedics. Thank you to all our podcast subscribers. You can find us on all the usual, the Apples, the Spotifys, the you name it. It's surprising the reach of the podcast. So we can go with you on your morning walks with the dogs, which is quite cool. And on YouTube, Hello YouTubers. So there we go. Today we're going to be talking about neutering, and what really sparked this was that Lisa and I and a wonderful guy by the name of Dr. Andrew Prentice were— no, Lisa contacted Andrew and I and said we need to write a letter to bring many vets in the UK up to speed with the current data on neutering. Is that a fair summary of how we started, kind of June time of this year, Lise?

Yeah, well, it was earlier than that. I think it was in the winter. I was— I think I was loading my frustration off on you, actually, because I'd been I've been speaking to some colleagues who were unaware of the dangers of neutering, and it still happens, though less and less I'm sure, that animals, dogs, are neutered for no particular reason. And it's upsetting because the science is now available to say that this is really, really harmful. And I think I was just venting, and you said, well, let's do something about it. And then we made this little working group consisting of, of Yumi and Andrew, and we wrote this letter that lots and lots of colleagues, Brendan included, signed, and we got it printed this summer in the Veterinary Record. I mean, the frustration is that I think we're all creatures of habit and we tend to do what we do, and sometimes we don't remember anymore while we're doing it. And vets have been neutering dogs forever for no particular reason other than it's what we— this is what we do. If we're not going to breed, we'll neuter. And we used to not know how problematic this was. And I mean, in the last decade, really, this information has come to light. But it's— more and more studies have been done, more and more papers have been published, and it's now very clear that neutering dogs is a really bad idea and it's really harmful. And it's just that there is inevitably, I suppose, this discrepancy, at least for a while, between where the science is at and what happens in practice. There will be this lag between finding out and actually implementing it, and that's the frustrating part. So really, we just need vets everywhere to update their practices and to stop neutering and stop you know, carrying out this harmful procedure. So we had this letter printed this summer, and this is very much a hot debate in veterinary circles, as you know, at the moment. And really, I think we can all agree, we just want everyone who loves dogs, everyone who's involved with dogs, to know about this and to help spread the word so that we can stop this procedure happening, really. I mean, the fact that dogs may be neutered today now that the evidence is there to say how dangerous it is. The fact that someone may walk into a veterinary clinic and have their dog neutered just because they haven't heard yet, that shouldn't happen. And let's do our, let's do our best to stop that happening.

Well, that's why we're talking. So that's really, really powerful. So tell us, tell us where you started. What were your frustrations and And then if you can tell us about what are the studies that have come out that now show us of the dangers, because there are pros and cons to every intervention in veterinary medicine. So if you can just talk about where we were and where the science is now, that would be really, really handy. And also just to say neutering is a word for de-sexing, as the Americans call either a male or a female. Yeah, neutering, it's a, it's a non-gender de-sexing. Yeah, with boys you castrate, with girls you hysterectomize, you spay. But if you want to lump them both with the same word, we just call it neutering. So if you can tell us of your initial frustrations and the papers that you came across that made you want to share that with the profession?

Sure. I mean, I think until exactly 10 years ago, I don't think anyone were aware. Well, we just neutered without giving it much thought, really. And then this study came out from University of California in 2013 the study which is often referred to as the Golden Retriever Study, which was the first time anyone really shed light on the fact that neutering could be problematic. And what they'd done is they looked at the lifetime health data of 700-and-something golden retrievers, looking for factors that influence their health and influence their lifespan. And they found that neutered dogs males and females, had a much higher risk than their non-neutered or intact or entire counterparts, a much higher risk of cancer, osteoarthritis, and cruciate ligament problems, knee problems. And this was completely— it was shocking to me, and I think to any other vet who read that study, that there should be such a link. It was the first time that was suggested, and it caused a real frenzy of studies, everybody looking into the effects of neutering, comparing breeds, looking at the age of neutering. And I mean, I think ever since there's been new papers coming out in a steady stream, really, in the last decade. I was— I think Brendan was too— at the World Small Animal Veterinary Association Congress in Copenhagen in 2017, where there was a symposium on this. And already then, I mean, that's 6 years ago, and already then they were saying, you know, neutering as a routine procedure is something that has to stop. The cons far outweigh the pros of neutering dogs. And the frustration for me, I suppose I'm just impatient, but the frustration is that it It takes years for this information to filter out and to become common practice. We're conservative, I suppose, and we do what we've always done, even though science is now telling us that we should really change our ways. And this is why this needs talking about.

I mean, it was really interesting because around about the year 2000, I was already with Milena, who was working with us at the time. We were investigating different options for neutering because there certainly were discussions about deferring neutering and the benefits that that might have. There were a lot of people just starting on that journey of really early neutering, like ridiculously before they'd even left mum, getting them booked in so that before they went to the new owners, they were already neutered for cats, particularly. There was information about maybe just doing an ovariectomy, so removing the ovaries and leaving the uterus intact, versus doing the opposite, which is to do a hysterectomy and, you know, leaving the ovaries active. So, I mean, all of this is all about giving people choice to some degree and understanding a little bit more about the impacts of gonadectomy, certainly in both males and females, because we're going to talk about females a little bit more, I think, just now. Have you already been on that journey? Were you doing much surgery, working with people that were doing much surgery, having those discussions, or was this really just a bolt out of the blue?

I think it was 2013, yes. It was quite shocking. It was. I mean, I've never had a neutered animal, so all my dogs have been intact forever. So I suppose intuitively to me, I didn't see the point of neutering. But the fact that the data, the science, so clearly pointed out the dangers was completely new to me. I mean, prior to 2013, if anyone had asked me what the implications would be in terms of osteoarthritis or cancer from neutering, I would not have suspected a link at all. It was more of that instinctive feeling that surely being intact is better. Why would you mess with the body as it is? But there's a difference between that intuitive feeling and then having the data to support it.

Guys, I think what we need to do is look at the pros and the cons of neutering and of, uh, leaving them entire, males and females entire. To kick that off, I've got a list here from Michelle Kutzler, who is kind of the high priestess of all this stuff. And so the cons of desexing, let's just start there, because these are not really very much discussed within owners, breeders, within the profession. So here we go. For non-cancer conditions, we've got obesity, puppy coat syndrome, diabetes mellitus, which is diabetes, hypothyroidism, Addison's, hyperadrenocorticism, urinary calculi, which is massive, urinary incontinence, which most people know about. We've got cranial cruciate ligament, yeah, where you get a break of the ligament in the knee. Hip dysplasia. Hip dysplasia is associated with neutering, especially if you neuter really early. Behavioral problems, obviously, and cognitive dysfunction is now associated with science on neutering. If we look at the cancer side of things, it's even more scary, if anything could be more scary than that list of things. We've got prostate adenocarcinoma, we've got transitional cell carcinoma in the bladder, we've got osteosarcoma, which is one of the nastiest bone, bone cancers. We've got hemangiosarcoma, which is rife these days, which is often in the spleen or the heart. We've got lymphosarcoma and we've got mast cell tumors. So that's a terrifying conversation that is often not had when you talk to the vet. Shall we neuter? Shall we not? Yeah. So what are the pros therefore, guys?

I think— could I just come in? There is one also missing and looking at testosterone therapy where they name specifically myelopathies. So I'm not sure that you talked about the sort of hind limb myelopathies, CDRM type syndromes as well, is now also being drawn into that list. So yeah, just to add that in as an extra, which can be a devastating disease, you know, to slowly see dogs going off their back end with a wasting syndrome. But yeah, pros, well, you know, a short list, a very short list. There's not going to be lots of unwanted kittens, I think is the one for the cats. There's not going to be lots of unwanted puppies. I mean, because obviously we don't control our dogs because we're just like, chuck them out now and let them rampage around the neighborhoods. Not. And then, you know, there's obviously with cats, because, you know, I'm a cat lover, and from a point of view of the level of fighting for males is seen as reducing the level of territorial behavior in that sense, the But I would still say some cats will still be territorial and still will fight if they're neutered. So be aware, you know, that can be a personality trait. Smell. I think a lot of people would say smell for male cats, you know, because tomcats and tire can wreak, literally wreak havoc within the home for many people. And I think, you know, going on to the female cats, definitely we'd be looking at, look, once they come into season and unless they're mated, they can continually come into season around, you know, that time of year. And that can be, you know, much more than just every 6 months than for dogs. So be aware of that if you've got an entire cat. Lisa, do you want to take over for the positives for the dogs?

Yeah, no, I mean, I just have to say, when I talk about this, I prefer to keep dogs and cats separate because I think cats really There are a few exceptions, but generally speaking, I would still recommend neutering cats of both sexes for lots of reasons. It's difficult to have an entire cat, and you'd certainly have to have it as a completely— as an indoor cat, and even then there'd be problems. So I think it's easier to— if we stay with dogs, and in terms of dogs, I mean, all the diseases Nick just listed are problems that are the risk of which are hugely increased if you neuter. If you want to look for advantages of neutering for male dogs, there are none. The only one might be that intact males of any species, I think any mammals that I know of, have an increased risk in old age of a benign enlarged prostate. That's about the only disadvantage for an intact male dog compared to a neutered one. And it's not, you know, it's not dangerous, it's treatable, it's what human men tend to suffer from in old age as well, you know, we don't castrate them for that reason too. So I mean, it's negligible in this context compared to the list of risks associated with neutering dogs.

It will stop male dogs running away to go and chase a bitch in season though.

Yes, yes.

And so it will stop them getting run down by a bus. That, that's all.

Sure.

If they— if, if the male dogs are hypersexual and they're, they're humping everything, including Auntie May's leg, then that's sometimes quite difficult for people to live with. I know it's a really— it's a small thing in the grand scheme of things compared with, you know, prostate adenocarcinoma, transitional cell carcinoma, etc., but sometimes that is a factor that people Uh, sure, but there you're comparing dying from cancer with slight social embarrassment. But I'm with you, I'm with you, but some people don't get that. Sure, sure, because cancer is down the line. Uh, her leg is right now, and every time she appears. Yeah, so yeah, it's, it's one of— it's just a perception thing, I guess.

Sure. Yeah, but if we're talking—

so where do we go?

Go on.

Yeah, where do we go? Just to ask, so there is information out there that 27% thereabouts of male dogs at some point in their life, if left intact, may get a testicular tumor. So should we just touch on that for a moment? Because obviously, you know, preventatively neuter and take away the testes, they're not going to get that particular tumour. I think there has to be a balance, because some of the stats for the other types of much more horrific tumours that you're not going to see very readily, or be able to detect very readily, are quite astonishing, aren't they, Lisa?

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Where would you compare those two? You know, the testicular tumour versus, you know, osteosarcoma and hemangiosarcoma, for instance?

Sure.

I mean, I think generally speaking, And an argument, any argument for removing an organ to prevent it becoming diseased is a bit absurd. You know, obviously if you remove something, it won't get a cancer, but I mean, that's, I mean, that becomes a bit silly. Testicular tumors are quite easy to detect, and obviously if you have an entire male dog, whenever you're tickling its tummy, if you see any irregularities, if the testicles change size, if they become asymmetrical, if there are lumps, then you take the dog to the vet. Testicular cancer is rarely fatal, you know, it's treatable, you can see it, you can act on it, and that reduces the risk of dying from testicular cancer enormously. Whereas, as you were saying, the cancer types that are increased in neutered animals are typically cancers that by the time that, like hemangiosarcomas, lymphomas, by the time the diagnosis is made, it's a death sentence. So the two are not, they're not equal in terms of risk. They're not comparable in that way. There are some, there is some sort of education, of course. If you have an entire male, you need to react if the testicles changed shape. Similarly, if you have a female dog, an entire female dog, you need to be aware of two risks that you don't have or have to a much lesser degree in neutered female dogs, which is mammary— the risk of mammary tumors and the risk of a pyometra, both something that can be detected and treated. So I would say mammary tumors and pyometra, if you live in a, in a context where having entire animals is unusual, in my experience, this is particular for the Americans who are very, very worried about mammary cancer and, and pyometra. They're easily detectable and they're treatable. So they're both conditions with a very high morbidity but a low mortality, meaning that they happen quite commonly, but they don't have to be fatal. So it's just getting used to noticing these things. You know, if you have an entire bitch and there's a discharge from her vulva, you take her to the vet. You keep an extra eye in the period immediately after her season. If at any point you're tickling her tummy and there are any lumps or changes in her breast tissue outside of her season or the period immediately after the season, then you take her to the vet and you have it have it tested. Most of these lumps will be benign and a few will be cancerous, and it'll generally be curable through surgery. So much like you'd look after your own health, really, if there are changes, you have them, you have them checked out.

And if you do an ovary-sparing spay, which I hope we'll be able to discuss before the, uh, 7:45, you won't get a pyometra at least.

No.

Okay, no ovaries will be there, and you know, oestrogen may promote the tumors, but the tumors are obvious. You just feel down. If you feel a lump, then get it checked. Yes, as you, as you say, these are very, very treatable, like the testicular tumor. Okay, fantastic.

So should we do that? Should we just do the definitions? Because there is some confusion. I mean, if we're talking about females, when you neuter a female, yeah, you traditionally you take away— either you take away— it's, it's— there's some cultural differences for whatever reason. I mean, I was in Denmark and in Scandinavia where I am, uh, if you're neutered a dog, you generally take away only, um, the ovaries, whereas in other places you take— you tend to take out the ovaries and the womb. So it's the difference between doing an, an ovariectomy or an ovary hysterectomy. It makes no difference. They're both neutered. It doesn't matter if you take out just the ovaries or you take out the ovaries and the womb, it's the same thing. If the ovaries are removed, they're the key part. If the ovaries are removed, then the dog has been neutered and the sex hormones are gone, which is what causes all the problems.

Yes.

However, and my advice, I have to admit, my advice would be obviously don't neuter routinely ever. Just leave them intact. It's not a problem living with an intact female at all. It's just something we need to get used to. However, for those who are very worried about the prospect of having an intact female, there is this compromise, so to speak, this sort of halfway house where you leave the ovaries intact so they are hormonally intact. They're not neutered, but you take away the uterus. The advantage of that is that they can't get pregnant and they can't develop pyometra. I think it's, it's quite a— I think it's a bit unnecessary, to be honest. And I, and I think there is some— it's fine to do it. I mean, it's certainly better to do it than to neuter the animal. But I do see, I hear comments indicating that there is some confusion in this. I mean, people will say, I can't find anyone to do an ovary-sparing spay, so I must neuter. And that's just silly, you know. I mean, to me, the logical answer to all of this is to leave the animals intact. And if for whatever reason you're not comfortable doing that, then have an ovary-sparing spay. But but never neuter unless there is a reason for doing so. Maybe we should just say that there's two things that I'd like to say. One is that we're obviously talking about routine neutering of young animals. We're not talking about neutering in a situation where there may be health reasons to do so, but to neuter young healthy animals really should be a thing of the past and just shouldn't be happening anymore. And the other thing is that I think this has to be separated from any talk of population control. You know, shelters are often very concerned with this when rehoming animals, and lots of people will say, well, you know, if we don't neuter, we'll have puppies everywhere. And I just see no reason to. I mean, I think that's— I just don't agree with that. But I also think this is not about population control. I am taking for granted, I'm assuming from the outset that that you're able to look after your dog. And that, in my opinion, if you can't have an entire dog, you shouldn't have a dog at all. So I'm assuming that that's taken care of. As Brendan said, you know, we're not just going to let them roam free. We've got control of our dogs.

Because the argument in the UK and in the US is that the only way to control puppies is by neutering every single dog, whereas in Denmark they've been for many, many years, and I think Germany as well, it's been considered an offense. It's illegal to neuter unless there is a surgical, unless there's a medical reason to do so. Yeah, it's actually an illegal operation to do. So are there any stats from Scandinavia, Germany, the UK, and America for the level of puppies?

Well, it's really interesting, a really interesting point, and I think it illustrates how this is— neutering was never about the health. Neutering is about cultural bias, habits, you know, societal expectations. It's not about dog health at all. In Norway, it's illegal to neuter dogs. In Sweden, it's not illegal, but it's considered unethical, and almost all dogs are left intact. Whereas in— and I think most of Europe is sort of somewhere in the middle, but in America almost all dogs are neutered. And neutering has been for ages considered the only responsible option for a dog owner. So it's bizarre when you compare that, you know, that in America it's hard to imagine an entire dog, and in Norway neutering is illegal. And I'm Scandinavia is certainly not overrun with stray puppies. No, I mean, it's, uh, I think the population control has got nothing to do with it really.

It's, um, so there's the proof of the pudding. In the States, I imagine they've got a lot of puppy problems. Yes, bizarrely. And yet in Scandinavia, not where they don't, where they don't routinely neuter. I mean, for me, that's the proof of the pudding. Bren, where are you on this one? The puppy population?

Puppy population generally out and about, not an issue. I think there's— it's an interesting dynamic, isn't it, for a lot of people in the UK. I see, for whatever reason, I don't know whether it's like their choice of children, they want one of each and they'll tend to have a girl and a boy and they'll come every 6 months that they find it really difficult if they're not wanting to neuter you know, separating those two, you know, for 3 weeks is a nightmare for them, let alone, you know, the fact if they go out. And I even actually have a colleague who literally has an unmuted bitch and an unmuted male. She was in one room on a Zoom call, not thinking twice. Next thing she realized, her little boy was that she thought was too young to really be that interested had disappeared. The bitch who was in season was actually locked in a crate, and interestingly, the little boy had managed to get to the crate, undo the latch, and they were found frolicking in the garden. And, you know, I say frolicking in the best sense of the word. And so, you know, even for somebody trained You know, that can happen even with the best intentions, you're keeping them separate. And that may be a fault of maybe we need to rethink our psyche as, look, if you've got girls, you've got girls. If you've got boys, you've got boys. And, you know, that's your solution, not have one of each because you want a set family or whatever it be. As it happens, I've gone for all girls. Pre these guys, I had all boys and it sort of made it a little bit easier in that circumstance. And certainly, you know, even my girls in season, for the younger one, she is just not interested, you know. She, she is so much more focused on me because of training that actually it's not, uh, oh my God, constantly she's escaping the garden to, to find some fella somewhere, which is helpful to me. For some people, it's devastating. And the one other thing that I think has been put up here is the consideration when they have pseudopregnancies. Jules, you've mentioned this here, I think is another thing that's raised. And a lot of my colleagues have said, okay, we delay, we delay as much as possible the neutering, but actually if they're having lots of pseudopregnancies, so I'd like both of your views on this, you know, maybe they've had remedies, maybe they've, you know, a number of things that have gone on because there is a natural hormonal cycle for dogs which can predispose them to effectively false pregnancies, which is great in a pack environment because they can feed the other puppies whilst they're out hunting or whatever it is as a sort of fall over from nature way back when. But what's your thoughts on if they're having constant pseudo-pregnancy pregnancies, so false pregnancies, where would you sit then?

Yes, absolutely. I think pseudopregnancies— I think all dogs, all female dogs have pseudopregnancy. Pseudopregnancy is that progesterone phase after the season when they think mentally, emotionally— well, maybe not mentally, but emotionally and hormonally, physically— they think they're pregnant. And I think that has been— and I'm tempted to say probably at a time when it was predominantly a male view from the veterinary profession— this has kind of been made into a problem. But it is a completely normal phase of the female dog's hormonal cycle. And if you're a female, you don't feel the same the whole time. You know, you are different at different times of your hormonal cycles, which is absolutely normal and the way it should be. So All dogs have false pregnancies in the sense that all dogs feel pregnant for a month or two after each season. For some, you'd never know it. For others, they are adopting slippers and teddy bears and, you know, don't want to go for walks because they've got to tend to their babies. And my, I mean, my approach to this is that for the vast majority of dogs, it's not a problem. Some dog owners see a milk production or you know, less energy, less willingness to go to training or to go for walks, and they feel that their dog is unwell. Something that is often, I think, reinforced by their vets who want to give them hormone treatments to bring them out of it. And I think if you understand that this is the hormonal phase that they're in, you know, give them a cuddle instead. Let them rest. Let them— they're in more of a cuddly, cozy, I want to stay at home and build a nest kind of mood because that's what their hormones are telling them. If you understand that, it's not really a problem. Then there are the small minority that where it goes over the top, you know, where they feel unwell with it. Um, and, and for those, um, I will take them to see a homeopath. I mean, homeopathy is, is the treatment of choice for, for hormonal imbalances, or, or maybe rather overreaction to normal hormone levels, homeopathy will sort them out. I would never ever neuter a female dog because of false pregnancies, not in a million years. For most of them, it's not even a problem, it's just a phase, natural phase. And for those where it is a problem, take them to a homeopath.

Yeah, completely agree, completely agree. Yeah, yeah, we're all, I think, aligned on that. Bren, a lot of people saying we're cutting in and out. I'm not sure, is that your end or our end?

That's interesting. I'm not coming up with any issues.

So it's looking good this end. Lise, everything good with you?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, okay. I think we'll plow on because Hopefully you're getting more, uh, uh, information than you are not. Okay, so, um, just in the last 5 minutes, guys, um, we've spoken a little about ovary sparing spays. Brendan, you do these, um, when asked to do so, but there's also vasectomies in boys whereby you don't remove the testes as we normally do, you just cut the tube that goes from the testes and delivers sperm, and that makes them fertile. So, Brent, you want to give us a little time on ovary sparing spays, your experience, and also vasectomies? Do you do them? And what are your thoughts?

So, ovary sparing spays, I always say to people, look, it's effectively a hysterectomy rather than ovary hysterectomy. The biggest people are worried about, and I've seen on various former forums has been, oh my God, but what if they get caught because they're hormonally active and the male is, you know, going to catch them? You know, there's this sort of thing going out there that there is an issue with any number of— sorry, there's lots of messages coming up with no sound.

No sound.

That's interesting. Can you hear me, guys?

I can hear everything. It's really good.

It's working fine for me.

Yeah, oh well, sorry, I don't know what's happening on your end, but we can all hear each other. Yeah, see the recording because we know what's going on and we can hear each other, which means the internet must be working because otherwise we'd cut out. So, okay, literally going back to— maybe somebody's neutering us for being on talking about this subject. So yeah, anyway, so yeah, it's interesting. So now even Fiona can't hear us.

Uh, I don't know what to say about that. Or I, I would suggest, because this is such a fascinating thing, thing that, uh, we're gonna crack on. Look at the podcast because we, we record this stuff, guys. So, um, look at the podcast. I'm not sure if we can get Pete to overdub The video?

Well, we'll go back to the video and we'll double-check it because it's being recorded on BeLive.

So, okay, okay.

So, um, what we're going to do is literally to say, um, this is, uh, the situation of, um, a very inspiring space. I do not worry. I don't know any women that have had a hysterectomy that have been advised by their doctor to never have sex again. And I think it would be remiss of me to assume that therefore there's going to be a major issue. We're taking below the cervix to reduce the risk or to stop the risk of any discharge and also risk of stump pyometra. But there is still so much flex within the vagina that I've never come across an issue with what's going on in injury there.

It's going to be a theoretical risk. But having said that though, I think there can be a false sense of security because if your male dog has a vasectomy or your female dog has an ovary-sparing spay, I would still not recommend that then you can just let them roam free or let them be. I mean, you don't want dogs to mate unsupervised. They might be fighting, they might, I mean, You know, I would— I think if they— I think there is a risk of a false sense of security and for just letting them be and just letting them mate. And I would never recommend that, not for fear of penetration, just for fear of— yeah, I mean, they can get worried or they can, they can get upset with each other.

Yeah. And, you know, from a point of, uh, um, the male side and vasectomies, you know, most people are doing pre-scrotal castrations these days when they're doing castrations.

And actually, Okay, nearly there, nearly there. Great. Oh, here we go.