RawPetMedics Tuesday Live: Q&A Jan 2023

We're finally here.

We're here.

So sorry, Brendan.

Brendan's lost about a stone because he's been sweating on the top line for the last 15 minutes. So Brendan, well done. Thank you for rescuing it. I don't know what you've done to do that, but that is brilliant.

Well done.

Yeah, it's a brand new account with an IT company in 5 minutes, 3 seconds.

Amazing work. Great guys, how are you?

Very good, very good. Yeah, I was looking in horror, looking in horror at the AVMA announcing a brand new dry pet food from Hill's. Did you see that?

Oh no, the AVMA acting as poster boys for Hill's pet food.

ONC support, our cancer product for ultra-processed pet food for cancer patients. I'm sure everybody's breathing a sigh of relief that they suddenly have a food Um, so yeah, a Camp Key Resort, um, kibble for—

that is very worrying because they're both together, aren't they?

They used to have Neoplasia Diet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, in the late '90s.

Okay, well, this one's on prescription now, so it means a whole lot more. There must be lots of medicines and stuff in it. And, uh, but what struck me was that the AVMA put up this ad— it's an ad, uh, for this new product— didn't even list the ingredients. It's just like can't wait for this new product that's going to come and sort us all out cancer-wise. And the AVMA don't even ask for ingredients now. Now ingredients aren't even a thing. It's just a post saying 3 months and vets can see the ingredients. Now you guys can log in. Um, I did, but I'd have to lie and say I wasn't a vet, and I'm not like that. So, uh, I just thought, oh my God, they don't even talk about ingredients or studies or possible benefits. Isn't it scary? I'm kind of like, this is just a pure ad for a candy company, you know.

The link between the AVMA, who are supposed to be independent. Yeah. And if they're blatant, I wonder if they do the same for Royal Canin and Purina and goodness knows who.

The Price is Right. That's just the way it is.

That's naughty.

No. Well, they're corporate owned. And I just think people are actually listening to that and reading that information going, this is good, this is good stuff because, you know, the AVMA are behind it. Why would the American Veterinary Medical Association promote ultra-processed food unless they saw some serious evidence. And in the article it says they're going to be studying this food for the next 5 years to see how good it is. It's like, I would love if you studied it for the last 5 years.

It is just—

oh, it's so annoying that somebody sent that to me. But anyway, that's what's been annoying me.

Let's release a new product and then trial it on the population. That would be a really good idea. No, no, it's never been tried and it always works out well. Yes.

Yeah. At least humans wouldn't fall for that. It's just dogs. Oh, skating close. Here we are. Oh, technology issues we're having shortly, guys. Listen, we are Raw Pet Medics. Thanks to everybody who had the patience to wait for us there. Sorry about that, that was, uh, just, uh, what can you do? Uh, you'll find us on patreon.com/rawpetmedics, and we have some great questions that came into us on that, and we will certainly attend to those tonight. Uh, 3 doozies in a row. And so one is a surprise for the lads. I haven't even said it to them yet. It just came in. So, lads, do you want to just bust straight into it? Because we always— yeah, yeah, yeah. Is there anything else you guys want to chat about? Is there something— is there anything that you need to get off your chest?

No, let's go for it. Let's go for it.

Let's go for it. Let's go straight into it. We've already wasted 5 minutes of my life.

Yeah, okay.

So, and let's say—

should we— let's say a big hello to all Judy Morgan fans who've joined us. Hello to everybody stateside. It's great to have you here. It's great to be with you in your living room, bedroom, kitchen, wherever you happen to be watching this very strange show. So great. Let's jump into it.

We've got some questions off from Judy Morgan fans as well. Let's get— let's do one of Judy Morgan's group. So this person, two questions, very similar questions. So I'll just lump them together. Pregnant females. Everybody's very concerned to raw feed pregnant females. Why is it so hard for me to find a raw-fed pup? Why are people not raw feeding their dogs when everyone's raw feeding— raw feeding pregnant dogs when everyone's happy to raw feed their own dog? What are your thoughts on that as vets?

Okay, is this a UK or a US question?

That's a US question. Yeah, it's both actually, to be honest. I mashed the two of them together.

Gotcha. Okay, I'm going to jump into that. I think that there are lots of breeders out there who are feeding raw and they are They are getting great results. I speak to many of them and I don't think there's a problem. It's just a question of identifying it. I would suggest that probably within every breed you can think of, all the common, you know, 2 dozen common breeds, there will be raw feeding breeders out there. It's just a question of connecting with them. I would suggest they've probably got Facebook pages and they are They're there and they're real. And some of them are even either supported by their vets or their vets are kind of neutral and they say, yeah, just get on with it, just be sensible and take advice from people who know about these things. So I don't know what the score is in the States. I imagine it's similar to over here. You've got, you know, a proportion of breeders will be feeding raw and they will have been doing it 30 years typically. So that would be my take, is, is, you know, look for those people who are doing it. Go to breed— go to your breed pages on Facebook, you know, uh, Irish Setters, um, Together page, and, you know, hunt down those breeders. And when you find breeders, find— hunt down the raw feeding breeders, and, and off you go for whatever breed you're looking. Or if you're looking for mongrels, you know, great, go for it. You know, nothing like a Heinz 57. What are your thoughts, boys?

Ben, do you want to go in or do you want me to shoot?

Yeah, well, I mean, last year we did do a whole thing on feeding the breeding bitch. You know, it was something that I think so many people panic that there's going to be something not quite right as far as, you know, oh, there's going to be deficiency. Calcium is a classic. Oh, they're all going to go into eclampsia if you start feeding raw, or you're not going to get the nutrients right for the developing puppies. And we really delve into, well, look, it's all about the fats. You've got to get development of the brain and everything else for those puppies. Get the fats right, you're going to get the calories right. Okay, just think about the fact that your breeding bitch is going to require more calories to feed those. But actually, if you look at the detail, it's about the time, the trimesters that you need to feed. So you don't really need to change much initially, and you need to ramp it up as you go through, and you need to feed you know, in the middle trimester, so the middle third of pregnancy. But at the end, you've got to accept that they're going to want to take less food because at any one time, because of the volume of the puppies. So you've then got to really think about, right, you need it fat-rich, you need it to be super energetic, but you need to just keep the meals small and maybe more frequent and accept there's a little bit of a tail-off in how much food you're going to get in. So it's a little bit complex in one respect, I guess, and people panic as soon as there's any degree of complexity for feeding, and so it puts them off. And they think that actually, well, it must be that the guys that have made that dry food have got it right. Okay. And that's not necessarily the case. There's all sorts of stuff that comes in if you stick to just the standard processed foods with no variation, so no access to different nutrients as they're needed. And all of the microbiome gets changed, all of those things. So, you know, it is doable. You know, humans have done it for millennia. Animals have done it for millennia. They've not needed a processed food to get it right. So we need to sort of, yeah, just say, you know, we can make it simpler. There's a great video that the three of us did a year ago. Look back on Raw Pet Medics on Facebook. Like and follow us, you'll be able to see through the video posts all of the information we put out there.

Yeah, like, listen, I'm after having two babies here, and at no stage did anybody tell my wife how to eat before she had the baby, you know, at no stage. 10 months and not a single word was said about her diet. And we all know that our diets are up and down in various nutrients, down in some of the critical ones from not eating enough fresh food. And so we know that's the case, but we also know studies of complete dry food show they are dreadfully erratic. They're not hitting the minimum amount of nutrients. So the 25% contain no EPA/DHA, which is disastrous for brain development. Studies show supplementing puppy foods with fish oil was very good for puppy development. You could go on slagging dry food, but I like the phrase that comes from the movie Platoon: there's no atheists in foxholes. And foxholes are the bit up the front of the line where the guys would hide in the ground and they'd shoot at the baddies that are coming. But as a result, they draw all the fire from the baddies. So it's a great way to keep the baddies from— but it means that everybody's praying to God in those holes because you usually die if you're in it. You attract all the attention. So it's easy to be an atheist until you're looking down the barrel of a gun. And I believe that some raw kind of breeders would have their pups will come along and there'll be a moment of doubt and go, oh shit, I won't be able to feed these dogs myself. Even though you fed your kids yourself, you probably went through pregnancy, you know what I mean? And you never thought about, you know, how much calcium do my kids need or how much they absorbed. It's nonsense. It's a fear that it works. Absolutely. Nobody tells a pregnant woman to do anything.

Yeah, I have a second thing to say about this.

Okay. Lauren Elgie, I met over in Brisbane Guide Dogs. She is one of, in the world, one of the only geneticists and animal breeding specialists. She's the only one in the southern hemisphere, and she works exclusively in canine colony management. She ships sperm all over the world. She is hot shit when it comes to pups. So when Lauren Elgie says something about developing pups, you listen, okay? She's the top of her game when it comes to this. Lauren Elgie exclusively feeds raw dog food to her pups, and this is what she said. She worked with Brisbane Guide Dogs, and to quote her, she said the organization enjoyed extremely significant savings with respect to colony vet expenses, but lacking vet support from the Brisbane Guide Dogs vets, it was always going to be hard for the program to confidently stand over the practice long term. That's in relation to Brisbane Guide Dogs raw feeding for 5 years, veterinary bills falling by 82%, then they were forced back onto dry food. Lauren continues, unfortunately, when we place our stock, as in Lauren Elgie's stock, into various service dog organizations, they are inevitably fed kibble which is a little disappointing as I feel they may not reach their potential with respect to optimal growth and health. She's got no reason to say that. She's not working for a dry food company or a raw dog food company. So I just think people fear that the pup won't get what they need, but that is just not bearing fruit. That's not what we're seeing. It's not like pups are coming out with, you know, deformed legs and rickets and stuff. It's just not happening. But the fear stops people doing it. What can you do? Um, I think that stuff is passing slowly. There are raw feeding breeders, as the lad says, out there. No doubt.

I just want to just recap on what Brendan was saying. Just want to re-emphasize and just demystify it, okay? It's really, really simple because bitches can do this in the wild on their own with no textbooks whatsoever, okay? And the way I see it, I divide pregnancy into 3 parts. As Brendan was saying, you've got the first third, the middle third, and the last third. And this comes to a certain extent from the great man who is Ian Billingham, okay? And he explained this. So what he does is in the first and the second the bitch needs more calories and nutrients and protein and what have you. And that is taken care of by the increase in the appetite. Okay. You just eat more because you're pregnant.

Yeah.

Eating, eating, eating. But in that last third. Yeah. This is like a right angle triangle. All right. So in that last third, in order to top up with nutrient-dense food, because she may be going off of her food a little bit, she's got a belly full of puppies. The way to do that without giving lots and lots of calcium, because we don't want to embarrass her calcium metabolism and then push her into eclampsia, not that you see it in raw bitches anyway, but the trick that Ian Billingham came along with from the '80s and '90s was that you top up that extra appetite with organ meat, obviously without making the dog loose or anything like that. So basically that last little triangle there before she whelps you're increasing the calories and the nutrients and everything with organ meat. And that's the way to do it because then you're leveling off on the calcium, but you're increasing with the amount of goodness that's going in so that she hits whelping. She's fit, she's not fat, she's not got too much calcium in her blood, which is going to upset calcium metabolism. And off you go. And I think— and that's so simple. There you go. In 60 seconds, I've explained that. And that's the basics of it. Talk to a raw feeding vet or nutritionist, and they will take you through it. It's as simple as that.

I don't think it's been shown that feeding calcium— well, Bill and her Ian was, you know, appropriately concerned about calcium and that kind of stuff. I don't— I haven't yet seen studies of dogs eating too much natural calcium and there being eclampsia or structural issues. What it could be related to is the calcium supplements, supplementation, just like phosphate versus phosphorus. I mean, is it possible that a dog would consume too much Aside from constipation, I mean, and resulting structural issues, I've never seen anything like that in any literature, have you?

I tell you what, I've seen eclampsia in one raw-fed bitch, but she was a tiny little spaniel and she had about 8 or 9 enormous puppies because she was raw-fed and she was doing them so well. And towards the end, they were about 6, 7 weeks, and she got a bit— she had low blood calcium because she was pumping out so much milk for these pups. But My thought is that she would have become eclampsic. She would have had eclampsia.

Eclampsic, is that a word?

Yeah, she would have become eclampsic on any diet whatsoever. Yeah, that we would— what would be wise would be to manage, take the 3 biggest pups and fill them with goat's milk or whatever it might be. That's— that would be my thought. Bren, you're itching.

And absolutely, with say, for eclampsia, a lot of the information that's out there, people think it's about the amount of calcium available in the food, but actually it's about what's happening with their hormones. Where's their vitamin D levels at? Where's their parathyroid health at? What other predispositions have they got? And often it's not about what you're feeding at that time. It's about the storage of calcium that they've had up to that point and the health they're generally in. So I have seen eclampsia in numerous kibble-fed bitches. Okay, so they know that they're not necessarily going to get it right by feeding kibble. I haven't fortunately seen it in a raw-fed bitch like Nick has, but it's not to say it can't happen if they've got other health issues. But I do implore you, I think we've gone on, you know, 15 minutes in, we've dealt with one question. Conor, you always tell me we need to move on. It's not in the side, by the way. Uh, sorry guys, look, the Ukrainian stuff is going on because we've had to sign up to an account very, very quickly. Sorry, it's a distraction. We're not being super political or anything like that, but I, um, I do apologize if if it's distracting you. As far as— there's lots of questions coming up live tonight. There's such a great community with us, and you will see lots of great answers to your live questions. So do keep looking down the strip of comments because you might find answers to your questions that you're asking live.

Let's burn through, let's burn through the questions.

Go on, Conor, I'm waiting.

Will I hit you with another one?

Yes.

Okay, here's another one. Uh, let's just hit Patreon again and then do a Judy Morgan one. Um, did you know— this is a doozy now, guys, I'm gonna throw you in hot water. I was reluctant to read it out. Did you know that neutered males live longer?

Says who?

Says 2 and a half studies. Tell me about the half study. I wasn't very impressed at one of them at all, but I haven't had time to digest this fully. This, this question escaped us in the— does Guys, we get an awful lot of questions on Patreon, so please forgive us if we miss them. It's not because out of malice, we are going through them and getting to the questions, but it's just the three of us. So anyway, this question was from a little bit ago, but I only tuned into it 5 minutes beforehand. I just wanted to ask, have you ever heard of this? Because when I went to see any supporting literature, I found two studies as we're starting off there about the best mix, sex and neuter, females and neutered. For longevity. And that verifies a large British study. And that's an American study there that I'm looking at as I'm talking to you. I was shocked. And they said that in relation to the male nutrition, just focusing on the males, because it's not such a big difference in females, apparently, guys, because I don't want to stand over what I'm saying. It's what the study says. But they said that with intact males, the lives, any difference in lifespan happened when the males were young. Afterwards, once they got past 3, 4, or 5 years old, there was no difference. But in the first year or two or three, and what the, what the writer, what the author suggests was that it may be due to roaming and whatnot, uh, during that time. And I just—

is that a euphemism, whatnot?

Yeah, sex to death. Um, so what a wonderful way to go. Um, so I— what, have you ever heard of such a thing? I haven't. I, I could— I thought it was the opposite way around, I have to be honest. That was a shock to me. I need to digest this.

As to whether they're chronically suffering with arthritis, various cancers, etc. And that's just, you know, so they have a long miserable life, or whether they're absolutely living a longer healthy life. There are so many factors that I'd need to look at those studies. You know, we've not looked at what they're feeding, what was that comparison, was it dry to dry, was it dry to wet, was it, you know, Were they obese animals, you know, in that study? There's so many other factors that sort of come in. Were they colony dogs, you know?

I mean, there's studies that go against it. Here's one from 2009. Waters et al., 2009, found that neutering female Rotties before 4 years of age reduces life expectancy by 30%. 30% if you neuter before 4 years of age. And then you have increased likelihood of many cancers, and then you have structural issues and all the rest. And that we know result from that. Uh, so I am shocked, and it's going to take me a while. What do you think, Nick?

Guys, I think, I think that we should do a show on longevity. Boom, full stop. Longevity. Okay, and we should bring this in as part of that. I think this is such a big and such a contentious issue. I'd like a long, long run at this. I'd like to see those 3, 2 and a half papers and just see, because as we know it's very easy to make your point if you just select, you know, select certain papers and, you know, there's quality of evidence.

Are you talking about a systematic review?

No, I'm just talking about the three of us going away, finding what evidence we can, and then presenting it to the world at large.

Yeah, it was published. This study was published, guys. Can you tell me what this word is? This It's like I'm asking my teacher, is this gerontology? What is gerontology?

Old, the study of old age.

Study of age.

Oh, bloody hell. Okay. Yes, of course.

Geriatrics.

Yes, geriatrics, of course. And the person, the author made the mistake of saying it's not only good for their health, it's good for the community. And I thought, oh, you're wrong there. You're wrong to say that.

I've just suddenly realized, are you lining up for the old? Never mind the snip, it's going to be a couple of bricks.

Oh yeah, that's how they used to do it back in the day. Yeah, no, so when somebody starts pushing the whole idea that neutering is good for the community, that whole obviously just goes against the stats. I mean, America, England, Ireland aggressively neutering and with dog overpopulation problems. Places like Scandinavia, Denmark do not. No dog overpopulation problems. To suggest it's helping with dog overpopulation is is just ridiculous. So that they said that now, that they are just, okay, Nick, you're right, let's not do that. Do you want me to hit you with another one, guys? This one from the Judy Morgan page. Two questions on the same thing. How does everybody feel about buying prebiotics for dogs, fresh-fed dogs?

I don't use probiotics on raw-fed dogs unless they need it, unless they've had surgery, they've had the squits, they've had what have you. I think that we know very little about the canine, the human microbiome, and we are guessing. There was another question about soil probiotics. Should we use soil probiotics? And that's guessing even more because, you know, one shovel from that side of the garden is going to be different from a shovel full of soil from this side of the garden. So we just need to realize we are playing with stuff that we have absolutely no clue about. So I would say don't use them unless you have to. If you find the dog does well on a certain type of probiotic, great, you've hit the jackpot. If you give a probiotic and it makes no difference, then you're no further forward and therefore try something else. But if nothing makes a difference, well, you may have a leaky gut, you may have an EPI where your pancreas is not producing enough enzymes. So there's more to the gut than just the bugs, although they are fun, you know, they are, they are absolutely fundamental. There you go. My thought.

That's good. Yeah, that's good. In a nutshell, Nick, our brand, pre and pro and soil.

Okay, well, I would debate that actually pre, we give lots of prebiotics in our food because there's all of those long fiber chains in everything from rabbit ears and fur and things like that. That's fiber that those bacteria look at. So I debate that we can't give them prebiotics. There are prebiotics in everything, every bite. From the other element of probiotics, Artie would definitely— wouldn't you debate whether she has probiotics alongside her raw food because she eats various rabbit poos, goat poo, you know, all of that sort of stuff. So she's taking in bacteria all the time. I would definitely say for those that have had one category that Nick left out, any of those that had previous antibiotics, especially when they were young, or if mum had antibiotics maybe for mastitis whilst the pups were still suckling, you know, there's sort of elements there. Or even if she had antibiotics during pregnancy pregnancy, which occasionally happens for some of them, and that can affect their microbiome and what they pass on to their offspring. So I think there's certain times, even if they're raw fed, that I would consider probiotics. There's a debate as to which probiotics, I would guess. And I think there's lots of debate. I'm reading some really interesting stuff. There's even more books appearing every year on the gut-brain axis. Um, there was a great one that I think, Nick, you talked about, um, probably 2 years ago, The Psychobiotic Revolution by Kryan.

C-R-Y-A-N. Uh, guys in the States, if you haven't seen this one, it's called The Psychobiotic Revolution. You'll get it on Amazon or other.

And he's the guy that actually worked in conjunction with 2 Irish Irish.

Um, no, he's the Irish fella. And if you go on YouTube and you look at— and you put in Kryan, C-R-Y-A-N, and probiotics, you'll see 5, 6, 7, uh, things by him. Lovely, lovely chap from, um, Trinity.

It was amazing. Dublin. The book is so digestible, it's ridiculous. It's just stunning.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, uh, there's another one that's the, um Gut Brain, that is just out last year, interestingly says virtually the same stuff. And just looking at the level of disease and the effects on gut microbes, the level of stress, so just mental stress, and then in reverse as well, stuff that's actually been around for over 100 years, believe it or not. But I do get frustrated. Some of these books say it's new, it's all out. We just discovered this in this millennium. And you think, hold on, there's actually an article in 1911 at a, I think it was a psychiatrist's conference on the effects of gut bacteria on mental health. So, you know, this is not, this is not stuff that we've just suddenly discovered this year.

Anyway, is the one, is the one that you're talking about, uh, Emmeran Meyer? Meyer? Meyer?

Yeah.

Is that him?

Yeah.

Yes. Okay. Broccoli Brain.

Isn't that the one that the front cover of that book is the one of a broccoli and it's a brain? Is that not it?

No, no, no.

Okay. No, I thought that was it. And I saw talks here on pre-pro and, uh, and soil-based probiotics. I think just like what, uh, Brian said about prebiotics, I think prebiotics— for just a quick summary, prebiotics is bacteria food, probiotics is the little critters themselves, be they bacteria or yeast or virus or whatever. You've got a whole host of weird protozoa and all sorts of stuff going on in your it's all kind of, you know, things working together. But prebiotics is the food they eat. And so when you feed a varied raw diet, you are feeding a cacophony of prebiotics. It's just an absolute cacophony. The milk, breast milk is a prebiotic for certain bacteria in infants. So just the protein from the milk is a prebiotic. Everything is a prebiotic to a bacterial community that is looking to eat it. So, oh, I haven't seen that one. Good. Okay, cool.

We're in Maya. Yeah.

So, So yes, that's the prebiotic thing. I don't think adding prebiotics to a healthy dog, no way, you already are. But I do think that there's an argument for adding them to gut sick dogs. As a probiotics piece I just read there recently, they said there's over 300 probiotic species in your guts and you're going to supplement with which? And I thought, oh, that's a great question. It's like you're going to add in a probiotic with 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 bacterial groups. How do you know which one you need? It's like throwing grass seed on a grass garden. And it's like, this is tricky. So it's very convoluted. And when you talk to probiotic specialists at the top of their game, they are saying broad spectrum probiotics, they're not using them. Okay, perhaps if you're gut sick, there's a reason to use them. I still think they might help because they have identified some species that when you take them, when you're gut sick, they can help. They get in there, they release compounds and they can help, but definitely not for healthy animals. So I think just like the guy said, specific occasions, why not? I don't think there's any harm at the moment that we have heard of. But there's no long-term studies of health yet either. So we are kind of shooting in the dark, as Nick said. So that's the hesitancy, because the more somebody like Nick reads, the more they go, I don't know. And then with soil-based probiotics, people always think, did you know, the less you know, the more certain you are. Isn't it a fact? It's like online, everyone, the loudest person knows the least because the people that know the most go, I just don't know. But nobody wants to listen to those. They want certainty, yes or no. But the last one is soil-based probiotics. I think soil-based probiotics, They're from the soil, guys, so they don't live in your guts and they're very cool at the moment and people are taking them like it's a probiotic for somebody. But soil-based probiotics don't kind of live in your guts. Okay. But what we're exploiting them for is they're yeasts and they hate bacteria. And this is how we discovered antibiotics. You know, these two groups of, of, of beans hate each other and yeast release these compounds to keep bacteria away from eating them. So we eat these yeasts, especially these like S. boulardii, loads of studies on it. Really interesting. And while they're in there, and they can exist in you for a couple of days, they release compounds and that studies show kill nasty bacteria groups. We don't know if they kill good bacteria or how many, but it looks like so far quite targeted at baddies. So this is fantastic for humans because it's like a natural, I think, antibiotic. And so if you've got a terribly gut sick dog, a soil-based probiotic can be wonderfully effective. That's not reseeding your garden. A probiotic piece that I just read said That's what prebiotics do. So soil-based probiotics can come in and kill a baddie. This is what the way I have it in my head at the moment. And then taking prebiotics via a varied diet that doesn't have loads of chemical preservatives in it like kibble, then you will just farm the right bacteria. Throwing probiotics in is a bit of a hit and miss thing. That's where I am on all this. And the very final point, canine probiotics, human probiotics, almost virtually the same. Dogs clearly have a different gut flora than ours. But they're different in the anaerobic bacterial groups, which means bacteria that don't like oxygen can't tolerate oxygen. So you can't make probiotics for them in a little factory with oxygen. So they end up eating the same probiotics as us. I know some companies are tailoring them to some good companies out there. That's a quality book. That's the one I love.

Yeah.

But anyway, that's by the three authors. So it's actually— yeah, Anderson is the author. Cryan and Deenan are the two Irish um, Professor researchers.

Anderson just makes it look, uh, readable. Yeah, you're right. Um, okay, boys, here I've got a question for you, right? If you put, if you put a prebiotic, so inulin or slippery elm or whatever it might be, into the gut, how do you know that you're only feeding the good guys? Because the bad guys, they're going to be hungry. How do you know that you're feeding the bad guys and therefore you're raising the bar on both. And pound to a penny, they're going to differentially eat the probiotic that you have just— I hate to unmake your day, but this is something that I've been thinking for a while. You know, that's really interesting. You're not feeding the bad guys.

I am really interested when you go to the microbiome labs and you go, here's my pet's gut flora, you know, tell me what's in it, what do I need to adjust. And the number of times I've had totally different animals with totally different issues, and yet the advice for what they want to give you, which happens to be the things that they can send out, are exactly the same. Okay, and there'll be different things, like there'll be increasing blueberry powder in the food, there'll be, you know, other sort of various things that are from plant makeups. There'll be sometimes mushroom mixes, there'll be sometimes inulin, you know, in various amounts. And I think it's that tweaking, isn't it, of that environment that they're trying to establish in there that gives you great certain bacteria that are going to be better. But I absolutely— I think it's— they've tried to oversimplify it, and I think there's a lot more complexity than we know. And I think you had a great conversation with is a human person that works with skin microbiome. Is that right? He was just saying, oh, do you know what? Just chuck in, it's all the same stuff. Just give them, it's about numbers. Just give them loads.

Dr. Cathy Brown, Manchester professor. And she goes, she's a skin specialist. Give me some tips on gut probiotics. And she goes, I don't know anything about gut probiotics. It's like, what? You're the probiotic queen. And she goes, I just do skin. I said, but surely you've heard something. And she goes, there's no difference in dog and human probiotics. And I was like, what? I'm the dog specialist. I'll tell you, there is canine probiotics in the course. She goes, call up your favorite. And I called up that, and she just called it Bio-Kult, which is a very popular product over here for humans. And she goes, there you go, exactly the same, but there's more in this one. I'd recommend that one. And it's like, oh, okay. So it's enormously complex. It's a bit— there's a lot of money to be made because it's very cool, but we don't know. And I like to stick with what the lads recommend, which is if you're looking for probiotics, get it from your food. Nice fresh food that hasn't been chemically adulterated, a bit of fermented veg if you want to get groovy, because they would be eating the intestines of the animals where there's fermented matter. And so why not get bits and pieces from that? And I am slowly coming around to that way of thinking, actually, as it happens. Studies show you get benefits from eating yogurt, behavioral benefits from eating just yogurt, and you can imagine how much of that life is lost to the gut acids. So there has to be truth to it. But, um, I think the specialist specialists are working with single species now. Like one single species, almost like a pill. This will help with a behavioral thing, this will help with something else.

So guys, we're going on 2 questions in, half an hour done. You guys coming over from America, I do apologize. You'll get used to us one day. And for some of you saying slow down with the books, we're just going through them too much, it'll be a standing joke because we usually get through so many book recommendations that—

yeah, yeah, I, I'm holding back here because I get such shit from everybody as soon as I mention the book. It's like, oh God, my— yeah, My bedside table is groaning. Please don't mention another book.

You are ferocious.

You're a ferocious reader.

I rest my case, Your Honor.

You are a ferocious reader, Nick, I have to say. I'm Brent, so it's quite intimidating because you just feel like a dunce. So let's do one more from Patreon. Oh, look, this is on the same whim. I actually combined two questions there with the Premium Pro and Soil Pro box. We just got three questions in one. While we're talking about that, what are your thoughts on fecal transfer, guys? Have you ever done it? We've talked about this before, but just for the sake that it came up twice, once in Judy Morgan's page. Fecal transfer, where are you?

I have, yes, done it, had some amazing results. Gotta be careful. It's not just about checking for pathogens, although that's really important. So, you know, you're gonna have to do that and These days, look out for your PCRs because it's not just about culture either. So a lot of people used to just culture them, and when you've got C. difficile, which is Clostridium, you know, I've seen loads of cases of Clostridium where it's been difficult to work out why they've got variable diarrheas that have gone on persistent regardless of what we've done to try and help them out. And all of a sudden you PCR them, which is available now, and you find specific Clostridia hiding in the wings. So there are lots of things out there that you've got to look into when you're doing that. And I would even consider doing a full, you know, microbiome check wherever you can. But many of those will culture them, they won't shotgun genetically test them, which is actually far more informative. And you then have to also look at what's happening with that clinical dog that you're taking it from. There's no point finding your best mate's dog that's really shiny coated that's as nervous as anything from traffic or other dogs. There's no point in finding that mate's dog that looks great but has recently suffered from, um, cancer or something like that and had a surgery to remove that cancer. So it looks looks okay now, but actually it suffered from something like that, or it's had adverse reactions to something, because actually some of that, as we've just discussed, will be reflected in the microbiome. So all you might end up accidentally instilling is an aberrant microbiome into the dog that you're in. I would say another thing, a Trantol. Do I have a Trantol to hand? Sometimes I usually have it. Nick, have you got your Trantol box?

It's downstairs. I'm taking it because it went out of date, so I'm taking it.

Very good.

Never waste anything. However, you see, it's always worth looking around in your office. So there you go. This is a herbal combination which will effectively till the soil of the guts for your dog, reducing excess numbers. Okay. And it means that whenever you instill a gut transference of bacteria, it's more likely to take because they come off this. You give the faecal transfer. So something to think about first. Really what you're trying to do is to reseed. So you just pass a tube up the rectum through the colon as far as you can reach. You pump it in with some fluids which will help to enhance that mashed up poo with all of those bacteria and implant that in as far as you can because you want to reseed the appendix, which we now know is one of the reserve bags of your microbiome, so that as everything else goes to pot and you get diarrhea and everything else, once that's passed and flushed out, then those bacteria start to, you know, it contracts and it starts to put all of those bacteria back out. So you want to try and change that, otherwise you're not going to be as effective, which is why some people will find that they have to go for repeat in taking of these fecal transplants in order to get there eventually, because it doesn't always take the first time. Sorry, that was a very rocket ship through.

Just before, Nick, I know you're dying to get an edit, but yeah, what I took from that, Brian, was you can use PCR analysis on poo, and I think it's fantastic that they finally found a good use for PCR analysis. So that's, uh, two in one night. Anyway, what were you going to say?

Sorry, I was going to say, uh, Michelle and Karen have rightly said Dr. Margot Roman. She is doing some amazing— she seems to be the leader in the field. Dr. Margot Roman, check her out. Karen Becker has interviewed her a couple of times. She's on YouTube, Dr. Margot Roman. And it looks like Brendan is going to give us some, um, goodness.

Another book. This was actually, uh, one a doctor The Human Doctor. Yeah, really talks about, you know, the length of time, uh, it took, I think, for a daughter as well to, um, be helped with, um, fecal transplants, etc. So it's always worth, you know, having a little read of what's happening in the human sphere, especially around functional medicine. Don't just stick to your normal medics and stuff, you know.

There's a lot of questions there. Yep, there's a question there on the poo pills. Uh, what about taken orally?

Yes, you can. Do you know what they're called when you, when you take them orally? Crab stools. Crab stools.

Yeah, sorry, Nick.

Yeah, yes, yeah, he's just so predictable.

Oh, I know, I know, we've cracked that one before.

I, I've tried it a few times on the fecal transfer, on like, you know, um, I've heard of a few people that have them. I can see one person commenting in the comments whose dog is a very difficult case, I have to say, very, very tricky. And fecal transfers have worked, but the dog has kind of regressed back into whatever the state is. And this owner is well clued in, she knows exactly what she's doing. So it's a very complicated case. I think the dog would be in trouble in anybody else's hands. But, um, so I would say that like it seems to work sometimes and not work for others, but like I suppose that's the case for lots of things because you're just not quite sure what you're dealing with with what's reefing that good flora out of position. I mean, it can work for a while and then it doesn't work anymore. Is that fair to say? It's not going to work for everybody, but it's worth a shot.

I think it depends where you start from with all these things, because, you know, some people's gut— I say people, I mean dogs— some people's guts are in absolute misery, and therefore I think a fecal transplant is going to really, really help. You know, these are the human beings, they've had 24 antibiotics over the last 24 months, and they've got Clostridium you know, overgrowth, and that they've got Proteus, and, you know, they are on death's door. Literally, there are no antibiotics to kill all the bad guys, and they're just being overrun. And they, they have a fecal transplant, and, and, you know, within weeks they're up and out. They, they're in great shape. So it can be really transformative. Yeah, not just for everything.

Well, in behavior, I've had great results with that.

Yeah, I think it's a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant thing. Here's a thought. Tim Spector, in his lovely, lovely book, which is called Spoonfed Awesome— okay, it's a lovely book, goes through about 24 things. Hang on, that's him trying to talk to me here.

Most of us—

there you go. The, uh, what, what, what he says that— and this is— this will blow your mind, everybody. Fiona, you especially. If you get two identical twins and you look at the microbiome of those identical twins, there is only a 37% overlap with identical twins. So you've got the same genetics, very similar upbringing, and yet those two— it's about as close as you can get— they're going to be 37% similar. So if you get scruffy down the road and your dog, you know, Simba, is that poo sample going to work? You don't know, but you might as well try because they eat poo anyway, so you're not really doing them any harm. And if you can knock them out like Bren says and just go up the back end, then you're not really offending them. I've tried it with dogs where you take some frozen stool samples, you take a tiny little bit, and most dogs will just refuse it. You said that, you know, you put it in the food and they'll go go, shit, they see it from a mile away. Yeah, and these are dogs, you know, who would otherwise go out and eat cat poo? So where's the logic in that?

So many people wonder, but actually when you use what we call a lamb feeding tube, so it's a reasonably stiff plastic but very supple, you can, you know, put a lubricant on it, they will stand there. It's no worse than having that temperature taken, and you do them totally conscious. So you don't need to knock them out. Okay, so, you know, it is doable. You just need to make sure you get the mix right. Secret recipe. Maybe I'll use that on Patreon.

And there's some nice music. Buy him dinner.

If that floats your boat, mate, you go for it.

Oh dear, the Americans are going to leave in droves, guys.

So we are really running it close because they are getting super nervous because they've got something on Judy Morgan's page at 9. Okay, which is in, uh, literally 10 minutes. We've got that question from Judy Morgan's page. What is it? Let's do that, and then we'll go to our bit on the side. So any of you on Patreon will catch the rest.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, um, actually, I was just gonna say one more— have we got another one more second to say another Tim Spector thing? This was great because he hates ultra-processed foods. Specter, he's just brilliant. And he says they want you to focus on calories and, you know, calories in, calories out. They want you to focus on calories and nutrients and labels so you don't look at your expanding waistline. You know, they don't want you to look at ingredients. Like, talk about pet food analogy, it's perfect. They want you to look at, oh, it's just energy and nutrients and that's all that's needed. And he said, for example, he says they will tell you that 100 grams of whole almonds is the same calorie density as 100 grams of almond flour. And he goes, but they're not. If you eat 100 grams of whole almonds, you'll only get 70% of the energy out of it. So while you eat, you'll be satiated for longer because it's harder work and you'll get less calories out. It's more work for the gut. You don't break it all down, you pull more of it out. But the flour is ultra-processed and so you go straight into blood sugar. And I thought, that is genius. This is one of the advantages, one of the advantages of eating whole foods. And this is just— there's many more, but Spectre puts it in very simple terms. His books are fantastic. And Karen just The Diary of a CEO, good podcast, and Spectre is on that talking for 2.5 hours. Every word is so obvious and it's like, oh, but this is a guy that's years at it, you know? Shall we dash on to Patreon and do—

Yeah, let's do that. Well, what was the— you had one question, didn't you, from Judy's questions here? I've got Judy's. Just one from Judy's just to finish them off before we leave.

This is— you can pick up two. Here's one. More and more people are using spices in real food. Okay. I'm not quite sure of the definition of spices, but they gave us three. Advice on adding spice to raw dog food, and they gave us 4 to choose from, such as ginger, garlic, turmeric, and I can't read my writing. I think I just wrote spices again. Ginger, adding ginger, garlic, and turmeric to foods. I think that's quite a big question, but I do see a trend of people adding spices to flavor food and stuff for dogs. How do people feel?

I think it's more medicinal. So my quick go-in would be, look, you know, ginger, great for gut, you know, turmeric, great for inflammation, you know, the garlic, great just for the immune system. Just very simplistic, that's, that's oversimplified things, I'm sure. But offer it on an aside, you know, don't just mix it throughout. Um, give them a bit of Zoo Pharma. We love to talk about Zoo Pharma. We've got Caroline coming on soon, uh, so let's, um, let's talk about that a bit more with her. But I would definitely say, look, lots of people are doing it. I hate it where people think that one of those herbs is the mixed, do it all for every condition ever, okay? Because that's just, you know, drives me nuts when people say, well, you should just add this because it cures everything. No, you should— you know, different animals will need a little bit of difference, and offering it I think is advantageous. Mixing everything in every meal I think is wrong, and that's partly why I fall out a bit with vermex sometimes. I think if they're mixing it in every single time, um, with a Is that right? And I prefer their option to offer it when they need it. I get that some of those gut health things are brilliant in vermex, but I can't get my head around giving it even if they don't have worms.

We give it 3 days a month. We just give the liquid 3 days a month and that's it. So, so we're really good. My take on the spices thing for ginger and so, so there's herbs and there's spices. Spices are kind of more aromatic, and they tend to be powdered. I would say just generally, I would say don't give a spice that your dog doesn't like, even if it's going to be really, really good for them. If your dog doesn't like turmeric, you don't give turmeric. There are lots of other things which will cover those bases, and variety is key. Don't just say, oh, my dog really likes a little bit of ginger, I'm going to give it for the rest of your life, especially in summer because it's very heating. So variety, with everything in raw food. Variety is the spice of life will be my closing contribution.

So Tracy Smith was asking, is anybody going to the Healthy Dog Expo in New York? I was due to speak at that. I was one of the speakers, but I just had to pull out because—

why?

And here's a third mention of the elephant in the room— because I'm not vaccinated for COVID.

So, and then they asked me and I had to refuse because I'm not vaccinated.

Oh, bloody hell. So there you go. And I was dying, dying to go. Anyway, what can you do?

However, we are talking the end of February.

Oh yes, we need to start giving our dates out.

I don't even know what date that is.

It's the 25th, 26th, 27th. Yeah, 25th of February.

Yeah, that's going to be good. That's for DTC, Dog Training College, isn't it?

So yeah, check out Dog Training College, go and join them. They're a great bunch.

Yeah, absolutely. And my thing about spices, guys, you can add all the turmeric you want onto food. First of all, the dog's not going to want to eat it that way. And second of all, it's not going to be bioactive to the body. You need to— turmeric's not something that you absorb and get great benefits from. You need to kind of present it in a certain way, usually cooked up with a little something. It needs a little activator, for want of a better word. Sorry, I'm butchering this to all the people that understand these things, but people make golden turmeric paste for a reason, because you cook it up with a bit of black pepper. We've covered this a number of times, but a lot of spices don't work that way. And yes, I would definitely take a healthy dose from ZooPharmacose. A lot of animals don't want those things on their food, so put it on the side. They'll choose. A little bit of garlic is great now and again if you want, absolutely. But it's in the medicinal kind of category. So you just don't take medicines all the time anymore than you take probiotics when you're healthy. If your dog had worms, does garlic even work to clear them? We're not sure, but we hope that it works as an anti-helminthic, as a preventative. So there's times to use them, there's times to use them on and off, as the lad said. But the idea of putting them into foods and into raw dog foods as the window dressing to get you to buy them, I'm not quite sure that's the way it works. Tim Spector does say to use spices in your life as much as you can, to add in those bits and pieces, because it's— they're all prebiotics. You're feeding different bacterial colonies. 30 different plants a week, he said, and plants include different spices, herbs, vegetables, fruit. He says 30 different items a week, and it keeps your biome nice and varied because we get stuck into the same 5 or 10 things in the fridge, don't we? So There is a place for spices, I'm sure, and for dogs, but we— it's a dark art for us. We don't know what they want. They've got a lot less taste buds than we have, so like, that helps them eat poo, but I still don't think they want chili flakes, you know what I mean? And it's just not the right thing.

Well, guys, we love you all. They're about to pull the plug in America, so yeah, we love you. If you want to join us a bit more, join us on patreon.com/rawpetmedics. You'll catch a little bit more on some live. Otherwise, next week we're back on Tuesday, so look out for the live. Can you remember what it is? Is that our interviews?

We always should have. No, I think that's the— one day we'll be very good.

Oh, brilliant. Gwen, thank you for tolerating us. Sorry we've given all of the guys there a little bit of squeaky time. I'm not going to say anything else. And thanks, Judy. We'll