RawPetMedics Tuesday night live: Longevity Plus

We see true to form, keeping them guessing, 2 minutes over. You know, uh, we, we surprised everybody on Tuesday because we were 2 minutes earlier and they were just like, what?

Oh, the cats always come late.

That's right, you know, you can't, you can't come late to the party. Uh, so, um, hi guys, those joining us for Feline Fridays. Oh, and Amaya's decided to leave already. You know, she says, no, I truly want to come in late.

So she's going to make an entrance, isn't she?

She is.

She says, I'm dropping out and dropping in. She says, just, she just told me just before we came live. I heard the traffic noise and obviously in Madrid, there's loads of traffic outside. He says, don't worry. You'll hear the police sirens soon.

Oh my goodness.

So I hope her internet hasn't overheated with actually going online in Madrid. She's back. You see, we had this last time. I'm sure that you were all dropping in and out.

Okay.

So that's fine. As soon as she's back on camera, had a power cut by the looks of it. Waiting for some of the guys to join us. Yeah, yeah, she's getting there. She's there, she's there. You ready? 1, 2, 3, she's coming on.

What's going on? Everything—

you do this every week. I did it.

I didn't do anything this time. I don't know. Anyway.

Hi, hi!

Come on guys, if you want to say hello, just pop a note in the little notes box and just say hi. Hi Heidi, it's nice to see you joining us. And yeah, this week we're all talking about feed transitions and how to get our kitty cats onto raw, particularly some of the tricks of the trade, some of the issues, some of the reasons why they might not want to come across, and hopefully we'll put some of those reasons to bed here today. Thanks again for Julianne and for Amaya joining us today, cat experts extraordinaires. And hopefully if you've got any questions, pop them up in the chat and we'll deal with those. So things of the week, come on, what's happened this month? You've had a month actually, not a week. I'm always saying week. Um, yeah. What's your news of the month?

It's a holiday month here in Spain. Nothing happens in August. It's kind of, you know, if you need to do something important, just remember August is not the month.

Okay. So is that, is it just too hot? Is that, is that the reason or is it just everybody goes, it's summer, we're off holidays? No.

Well, it usually, it is the summer holidays, but still, I think it is the weather because it was awful this year. Oh, well, I heard in the UK was as awful as well for what you're used to.

Yeah, we had it in the 30s.

It saved so many people buying airfares because they could just stay at home.

Yeah, I have to say though, it did affect the boys.

So Leo and Max with the weather, they weren't eating as much. You know, even when we tried to do what Brendan said last time, which is feed at dawn and dusk, they weren't having it. They were picky with their food. They'd eat one protein one day and then not the next. The next meal, they were really like off it. And I had to kind of just catch my breath and, you know, cool my anxiety down because I'm like, oh my God, they're not eating. What's going on? You know, but it was— yeah. So I think the hot weather can affect us all like humans. And cats, definitely.

Well, for example, in my case, my cats didn't want to eat any lamb. Actually, I always buy the same proteins because, you know, you're used to just make the same. I shop the same meats every time and I was like, okay, now I have lamb and nobody wants it. Yeah, yeah. For September, maybe.

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Oh, it's one of those, isn't it? You know, we start to go into other forms of medicine and whether they're heating meats or cooling meets. And here we go. No, we're not going to go there today. But look, guys, it just shows for all of those guys that are watching, you know, even for the guys that know their cats inside out, they still get anxious about when a cat doesn't eat. So we're with you, we understand. We understand this is a real, real concern for all of those guys out there. So, you know, let's just see whether we can give you some tricks to keep them eating. And also things to reduce your anxiety. So, um, who wants to pick up first? Julianne, go on, let's, let's— you haven't given us your news of the month yet. You know, what else you've been having other than Leo and, um, not wanting to eat?

So pretty much Max has decided that he is an avid hunter, so we've been getting little gifts. I came home yesterday, there was a lovely blade of grass by the door. I'm like, oh, that's beautiful, he's almost brought me flowers. And then I looked to the side and there was a nice dead mouse there on the mat for me. I've I've just come home now and there's a nice dead vole. So, you know, it's obviously gift month for Mummy. Um, and, uh, and, you know, it's, it's tough because I wrestle with the, you know, nature-nurture. You killed an animal, you know, etc. I've got carnivores as pets. That's my choice. That's his, you know, his innate, um, drive. I just wish he'd eat them. I really wish he'd eat them because I'm like, buddy, that's fine. Like, the whole circle of life, Pumbaa, you know, it's fine. But eat it, or at least eat part of it, you know. It's just whole— I mean, I don't want to see it like a dead mouse head, don't get me wrong, but still, I'd be like, yes, he's eaten some, you know.

And it—

he doesn't.

It's not a wasted life.

Yeah, yes, that is exactly it. That is exactly it. Um, but yeah, it's, uh, it's— he's definitely becoming so much more confident with it, which is beautiful to see, because with him being outside him and Leo are starting to sort of have a few more tussles in the house. But when they're outside, you know, it's great to see that Max is able to be, be himself, you know.

And you know what, this was a really interesting point on Tuesday. It was raised, um, in the national media about, uh, the— there's certain areas, I think in South Africa, that they've actually banned cats from being you let outdoors. In fact, actually, you can get fined an enormous amount of money because there's like 6 breeding pairs of a certain bird, and if they're caught with that bird in their mouth, that's it, you get slammed with 5,000 Rand fine or something. Um, and there, there was then a whole conversation about should we be keeping our cats on leads, you know, should we be keeping them indoors. There's a whole conversation there, isn't there, about, well, what's natural, what's appropriate, Are we overpopulating our urban areas with cats and therefore decimating the wildlife? You know, actually, what are the welfare implications of keeping them in? That side of things. Amaya, are you keeping your cats indoors in Madrid, or are they—

Yes, I cannot have my cats outside. There's too much traffic. I live really near to the train station, so it is impossible. I could take them outside on a leash, but one of my cats has a well, suffers hyperesthesia, so he doesn't like anything on his body. And the other one, well, the other one is deaf, so she wouldn't care. But I don't know, I feel it's unfair in a way.

I can feel like sensory overload for her, for her nose though. If she can't hear, like, her other senses are obviously going to be heightened, you know, so it could be.

Yeah, well, but no, I don't— I think she's like very relaxed and she's never worried about anything. She likes to I mean, even when I do self-selection with her, she's like so peaceful, like, okay, let's see what's, okay, yeah. So she takes everything, her life is like that. So I don't know, probably she would be very good outside, but I don't like, well, I'm trying to move out from Madrid and see, look for better places so they don't have this contamination air. And the traffic and the noises and everything. So, but well, it will come in a moment. And what you said about cats going outside, there is a paper that actually points nutrition into this thing. It says that if you feed your cats appropriate food and you play, and you don't have to play a lot, but if you just play and you have a good routine, actually their, their hunting reduces a lot from cats that don't eat appropriate food. So I think we need to, we need to figure it out, a way for them to go outside. That's like my point of view, but not in a wild situation.

Yeah, although I'm, you know, all for my, my mouse catcher because, I mean, I can't imagine how many mice she'd catch if she wasn't on raw food in that case. But, you know, from a point of view of you know, she's out there predating stuff. She's trained my youngest dog to predate and go out and eat rats. You know, it's great. It's just like, yeah, true Yorkshireman, you know, free food, never turn down free food. So from that side of things, you want them to take that side out, but not necessarily all of the wonderful little birds and things like that. Yeah, exactly. Let's all love this. What do you think of putting bells on their collars to scare the birds off? Have you done that?

No, no, no, no, no bells. I don't like bells. They can be very confusing and actually can be very— how do you say— like, it could bother them a lot, the noise.

Yeah, yes, overwhelming.

That's the word I was looking for. And then there is a— there was a Chilean brand that actually did certain collars that were kind of like those collars that you use for surgery or whatever, but shorter. And they have like very bright colors and they were really soft. And so the birds were also, you know, the birds also escaped from that because the cat, you know, once the cat was running, those lights were moving. And that seemed to be very It was working very good in Chile, but I don't know what happened to the brand. I was trying to look for them to see if they could sell and try them, you know, and that is a good idea.

Yeah, so I mean, really interestingly, there is an electronic collar which is designed that they can predate mice, they can do all of that, but if they do a certain movement when they are predating birds, that's supposed to be different. So the hunting technique, the pre-launch and then the launch to catch is slightly different and the collar recognizes it and emits a high-pitched noise if they launch for birds but not if they're hunting mice. And all sounds brilliant, doesn't it? And then you're thinking, yeah, the high pitch, you might not hear it, but will your cat? You know, it's like those training collars to not do it. And so anyway, My cats don't have collars on at all, so, uh, I'm sorry, Penny. I know, Penny, you're asking for where's Nick. Uh, no, it's just us three today. Uh, Nick's not a cat person really, so, um, he's not going to be online with us.

Yeah, the collar situation— like, ours have got collars on because Leo's asthmatic, so he's got a little stainless steel engraved pendant that says his name, my phone number, and it's asthmatic, you know. And he's got clip release collars. When we— when they get delivered, we take the bells off because I don't like the bell all the time, you know. And to be honest with you, I don't think it's good for them. And we tried a GPS tracker collar on him once, and when he came home, he was a completely different cat. He was agitated, he was irritated, he was frustrated. His eyes, you know, his brow was furrowed. And I'm like, imagine having electronics around, you know. We choose to have watches or whatever, you know, electronics we're around. But for him, like, it just, it wasn't a good thing. So like that one with the— you're saying about Brendan, like that That would be how I— yeah, I wouldn't want to try anything like that.

I mean, no, no, me neither.

You don't see it everywhere, and it's— I don't think it's that popular a brand, otherwise they'd be, you know, really eulogizing about it, wouldn't it, to save the bird population of Britain. Yeah, it is what it is. Anyway, let's crack on. Yeah, so that's really what we're here for today. Um, what's— let's— you're gonna have one top tip. We'll work it down, and then we'll try and work out who's got the, the top 10. So Julianne, you go first. What is your top tip for transition?

So my top tip would be realistic expectations.

That's a good one.

And I know we're not starting off with like, try this meat, try this protein, do this plate, put it here. I know all that. But my— so many people comment and speak and message me and everything and say, I've tried for a week, tried for a month. I'm like, okay, well, it took me 6 months. You know, and we've been on raw for 5 months and we still have setbacks where we go to a bit of wet and occasionally, God forbid, a bit of dry, and then we're back on raw. So I would say the top tip is realistic expectations about how much time and effort you're going to put into it, how much capacity you've got to give to it, because it's not— some cats do it overnight, great, and they're like, you know, the golden cats that I, I've had a client say to me, oh yeah, we put him on raw and he's been on it ever since, you know. I'm like, well, Wow. Yeah, that's amazing. Gold star to you. Um, but for me, like, with all 3 of my cats, you know, we've had it, we've had different experiences, and every cat is unique. Every cat is unique. So for me, it's about understanding, like, are you doing it because you think you should, or are you doing it because you want to? You know, what's your motivation behind it, and how much energy have you got to put into it? Because if you're going to try it for 1 meal or for 2 meals or for a week and then think, oh, it didn't work, you may not get very far, you know, and then the guilt and the shame and the frustration that comes from us humans will then be then, you know, going to the cat. So my top tip is really about realistic expectations. Look at how much you can afford to spend on this, how much time you can involve with it, how many other people in the house you've got to get involved. So is it just you that feeds the cats? Is it you and your partner? Is it you, your partner and your kids? Is it your housemate? You know, because when you bring in those changes or a change to a previous routine, you've got to have buy-in, you've got to have support. So for me, it's about realistic expectations.

And interestingly with that, because again, I think that that's part of the cat crack generation from all of the processed foods and what they stick in there to make them really high flavor. You know, realistically, if you're giving a low processed food with none of that in, It's like the classic in England that the builders with 6 sugars in their tea, you know, you're never going to give them a cup of tea with no sugar in and expect them not to spit it back at you. You know, it's like you've got to wean them off or you've got to even taint the unprocessed food with that cat crack. And I'm going to call that in the best way. I obviously don't mean that it's cocaine and heroin, but I do mean that it is really addictive. Flavour, strong flavoured additions to those foods. Otherwise they'd just be cardboard, you know, let's face it, you know, that processed stuff that's brown and slightly wooden looking, or sometimes quite red, slightly looking. Yeah, well, yeah, or green, you know.

Yeah, vegetables.

Yes, better.

Meat and veg, red and green, that's the one. Not that.

Yeah, I mean, you know, cats use their sense of smell, so how do you get dehydrated, ultra-processed, then dehydrated again and ultra-processed something to be smelly, to smell appealing to cats. You cover it with chemicals and sugars and flavorings and crappy stuff, you know.

Yeah, so I think, you know, Ella, you've raised an interesting thing. Would you put kittens straight onto raw? Yeah, I would. You know, I think that's a great age to really bring them on to that, you know, without any problems. I think, you know, as long as you've got a reliable source of raw, that you're not getting stuff that's looking slightly out of date on the yellow label aisle with green stuff on it and that horrible sort of metallic sheen of— Where did you get the meat?

What is that? Where did you buy the meat?

Well, I, do you know, in the UK, because there's this whole thing now about how can you keep your costs down, so all the supermarkets that they sell by day end thing, they start to stick yellow labels in the supermarket. So this is for you to eat Okay. And I go past and I take a little nosy at these things to think, you know, would I dare to, you know, put this on? And some of them you just think, because it's never how bad they've come out of the abattoir, it's often how badly they've been stored in the supermarket.

Yes.

And I just look at that and you just sort of like, you pick them up and you just sort of like hold them up to the light because obviously the shelves are usually in a bit of dinginess so you can't truly see what you're buying. And, you know, that metallic sheen is just a bacterial sheen of, oh, just don't want to know. Okay, and it looks, you know, that's when definitely not to buy it. But let's go with it.

You're doing it wrong.

Yeah, Conor thinks it's great to buy the yellow label stuff for dogs, and I'm just like, what are you on? But no, he likes to keep costs down. I think realistically Good source of raw. Absolutely. I would start them from day dot. In fact, actually, my little spider, um, who's the black cat I've shared within our group, um, is, um, she is weaned straight onto raw from, uh, me bottle feeding because she came to me at a week old. Um, and so, you know, we've done all of that, and because my dogs were eating raw, she sort of copied that. And in fact, actually, that's something I want to say to you guys. Somebody messaged me earlier in the week, you know, what if I run out of I don't have raw cat food, what can I use? And I'd just like to say raw dog food is still rich in taurine, and that's really the main difference. And as long as you're not getting the added loads of veg options, you know, there is no reason why you can't shortcut and divide up raw dog food. That's a meat-only option for the week that you're short or whatever. Okay, so if you're into a raw shop and there's no cat food in there that week because they haven't got the order or whatever, buy some of the meat-only dog range. You'll be fine. Okay. So going back to Cat Crack, you know, have you got any other toppers that you would add? Should we— I think that's the next top tip is toppers. That you would think would be great additions to raw to make them a little bit more flavoursome? Amaya, you've got to have a top tip on that.

Yes, I do. Well, first of all, I try to— I do several things, and actually not only the topper but how you mix it is also important. Okay, what I use is brewer's yeast. That's one of the favourite— my cat's favourite But I usually, what I do, it's kind of analyze the behavior of the cat, right? So first of all, I look if the cat is addicted to more salty foods, more sweet foods, or, you know, so I keep trying different things before I decide which topper I'm going to use. Sometimes I use a bit, just a little bit of syrup, of a really good source syrup and mix it so I make it sweet. And if the cat likes it, then I would choose something in the way of, well, brewer's yeast usually works, any kind of vitamin B which has this sweetie taste. So then I go and move forward to that. And if I try it with a little bit of salt, of course everything is good quality salt, not just any salt. And then I put that, and if the cat likes it, then I will move to Parmesan cheese or any other topper. Also, I can use grounded kibble if the cat is too addicted to that. And I've tried also this kind of treats that are sweet, the liquid treats. Right? And I put that on top. And then how you mix it, because some people, what they told me about this, putting the topper, is that they eat the topper and then they don't eat the meat, right? So they like what you put on top. So what I usually do is I try to use big plates. I put a thin layer of meat, but very, very well expanded like that. And then I just put the topper and I press with the fork or whatever I have and make sure it gets in. And then I put a little bit on top again. So I think—

hide the broccoli, I like it.

Yes, I hide. So I tried different ways.

I'm now thinking of layer cake, you know.

And then another one of these, then you can slice it.

And then they—

isn't that ultra cake?

And I serve it with clotted cream, a quenelle on the side, with a little bit of kefir on the side.

Well, kefir is actually another one that I use when they like the taste of milk, but I don't use milk. I use kefir or any fermented kind of food. But anyway, that would be my 3 top toppers.

Oh, great. Okay, so then, Juliane, before I come back in because I just talk too much, what's your favorite topper? Go on.

Interesting. I've never, I've never used any of those that Amaya's recommended, and I think it's great because now I've got tools that I can try as well. So we, we generally have, um, uh, so we've got 3 again. We use freeze-dried green-lipped mussels, and sometimes the boys like it, sometimes they don't. So, you know, we don't do it every day. I know some people say you should, but we don't. So we use that, um, as one. We also use freeze-dried what I call treats, but they're just pieces really. Um, but they're not a balanced diet to feed 100% all of the time. So we have, um, one of the boys likes salmon, one of the boys likes chicken, and they crumble really well. So we just sprinkle that on top. Um, and yes, we have done the dry food. So for example, with the heat and the weather last week, to try and get the boys to eat a little, we had some dry food and we sprinkled a couple on top, and it, and it worked. You know, they ate the dry food, they ate the raw or wet underneath because you know, we've had a situation where we've been feeding, you know, feeding all three to try and get something in them. So for toppers, I would say look at what you're using already, you know, and use some of that because we haven't talked about like the two-plate method, mixing the food, you know, dry to wet to raw, you know, and those are elements—

it's coming—

I thought it might be. Those elements are important as well. So we've, you know, we've made great suggestions, but also think about what you're currently using because, you know, to get your cat familiar with a new smell of a new food, a new texture of a new food, you know, give them some familiarity. So, you know, look at what we've, we've discussed, but also think about what you've already got. How about you, Brendan? What would you use?

Yeah, so I, I, you know, I love bone broth. Okay. So I think, you know, and I find it really useful in so many ways. There is now dried bone broth. And so, you know, it's sort of you can just sprinkle it as dry on top. and sometimes that's enough.

You have to share that link with us.

Okay. There is also even making bone broth, and if you're going to go to that extent, adding a little bit of sea salt to the bone broth. Okay. Not just apple cider vinegar, but sea salt towards the end. People worry, oh, my cat's going to have renal disease if I give them too much salt. In the grand scheme of things, the amount of salt that you're giving in bone broth compared to what's already going to be in the other foods anyway is so small in the grand scheme of things. But the added flavor that that brings that attracts cats to it, or some cats, as you quite rightly say, Amaya, some are salt flavors, you know, they, they love that very homeopathic, um, approach to, uh, characters. Uh, some even cats, you know, you wouldn't think it, but actually those cats that are rare that love sweet. Okay. Is out there. A lot of the cat crack stuff is actually really small amino acid additions to make them attractive because cats have that taste attraction for things that are already easily assimilatable within their foods. So I think the glycine within the bone broth can be really useful. And the other options, rather than dried sprinkled on top, warm bone broth onto an ambient meat, I think is a great way forwards for those cats. Sometimes being super chilled, they're so sensitive to smell that food, as you quite rightly said, Julianne, that actually if it's a chilled food, there's just not the pungency there to hit their nose for them to be attracted. And warm bone broth onto that food just excites so much more within that. That I love adding bone broth in that sense. For those that are difficult to transition right now, my cat Spider would just, you know, she sees the dog's bowls out and she'll be eating theirs before hers gets put out. You know, she's like, you know, that's not fair. They've got bigger bowls. I'm going to have some of theirs too. I mean, she's so slim, you would not think that she can eat So much. I mean, she's on— I laugh because there's a company that I work with that sort of gives out an amount of food in a dish and they say, yeah, you can divide that into 3 or 4 because it's easily going to work in the fridge for that long. It'll stay good for that long. And that's then 3 or 4 meals and everything else. Well, you're lucky if you get 2 out of those for my cat. You know, in fact, actually, that's probably about a day.

Yeah, I have to keep opening you know, small bags, and it's like, no, just give me the dog one.

I don't care.

I just fix it myself.

So one of the other interesting things that Jane Johnson just said about dried sprats, so that was going to be my second sort of thing. So that I do find there's this chicken cat and fish cat, you know, I think, yeah, in practice I always ask the question, you know, if I'm going to support them which do they prefer at that? A little bit like the sweet and salty, I guess it is, but it is very much the chicken cat or the fish cat. There are some that are going to eat both, of course, but heaven forbid you try and give a chicken cat fish-flavored stuff and they're just like—

Nope, walk away. Yeah, we have that.

I've dealt with very, very addicted cats to fish, especially fish. And then when you want to switch, it's impossible, not even to fresh fish or whatever. You cannot take, so what I usually do when I have an addicted cat is I try to change it within the food they're eating. So if they're eating dry food, then I would go and try to add a bit of chicken or different, and maybe not chicken, maybe something very strange like, I don't know, venison or whatever. As possible, as weird as possible, and then I'll try to add that into the, into the fish. And what I will do also is make the most attractive food into a toy, into something that they have to play with. So they have the easy one if they are, they feel lazy, then they have to eat the venison with just a little bit of fish. And then if they want the kibble that it's fish, the one they really like, I try to to take the one that— put that one in a toy and make sure they play for it. So that actually helps me to, you know, slowly start changing diet into actually the flavor of the diet. And then I'll do the same with the canned food. I'll make it more difficult and then move very, very slowly because cats are very addicted to fish. For me, it's even worse cats addicted to fish than chicken. I don't know what's your experience.

Wow.

So while I was away on holiday, my nurses were coming in to feed Spider, and they found the Sprats, which were the treats for the dogs from a certain food company, and they literally were giving her them as treats. And so they'd lay out, they'd feed her, she'd scoff the food down, and she'd sort of like do the you know, all the purring and everything. Have you not done that? Anyway, so, you know, she'd do all of that and, uh, and they'd think, oh, that's— oh, bless, you know. So they'd get out, they found these sprats, and they gave her a few of those. And then they were getting a bit disturbed because what they'd find, a little bit mafiosa-like, uh, is the next day the fish heads would all be left. And so she'd just eat the body and leave the heads.

Craziness.

So that's, that's my fish story as far as— yeah, she's, she's— I don't think she likes the eyes looking at her. She's all right with mice and birds because they close their eyes as she eats them.

Yeah, she doesn't like to be looked at.

So, but really good. So there's some good toppers for you guys out there. You know, I love the sort of ground-up mussel sort of powders and things like that. That brings some saltiness and some omega-3s and things like that into that mix, which is great. But I would say, you know, Amaya, you've touched on another great point for attracting cats into eating, full stop. And that's, you know, what you were saying about making it into a toy, making it into something that provokes that hunt mechanism, you know. And, you know, do you do anything else with that? Do you sort of do some other play before exposing them to food?

Well, the first thing I do, it's assess behavior in all, because sometimes it's simple, because I don't always do the same thing with every single cat. As Juliane mentioned, every cat is unique. So first of all, I address behavior. I see if the cat is living among others or maybe a dog or something, because that will only— living in a multi-cat household will just be enough for the cat that won't want to change food, right? Just because somebody's looking at him, just like you said with the fish. But if you have just one cat, or maybe two, and you want, first of all, try to look for a place that it's safe for them. Maybe it's on a place that is higher. It depends. Not all cats like to jump to get their food. So I try to assess that and figure out what type of personality do I have, and then put some strategies on. So if I see that a cat, it's lazy, or maybe, how do you say, this kind of overweight cats that, you know, they're very attached to people, they're very attached to their food, I usually do that, try to stimulate this predation mechanism that they have. And also I make the guardian to be committed to that and work because the cat is only going to do things that are promoted by the guardian and not do it just because they have the will. They are overweighted, they don't want to play, right? So what I do there is that I try to strengthen the bond between the two, then try to play a little bit, and once the play is established, then I use the food to actually make a change. I don't make a change in the beginning. You know, I have clear—

yeah, I think so. I mean, uh, Julianne, I'm gonna let you have a go about that behavioral thing. We've talked before a little bit about that, and I think, you know, just I'd really like to hear on here what, what you think of, you know, how to get cats engaged with food, with behavior, and then I'll come in. So go for it, Julianne.

Yeah, I think Amaya's right. You need to understand the, the drives of the cat to start with, you know. If there's any form of weight issue, you know, you need to to instigate play before you even try to change or to bring in food. For me, you know, it's about using it to bringing in that curiosity element. So, you know, baby Max, he was on wet and dry from the rescue center for 5 months. And, you know, when the person mentioned about feeding kittens as raw, I was like, I wish, you know, we've been able to do that, but we couldn't. So I started to bring in things for him to play with, to get used to the texture, the smell, the fun element of it, you know, a chicken wing tip and a quail's leg that he ate the whole bloody thing, including the foot. I'll never forget that. So it's about, you know, and like Amaya said, bring the guardian in as well, you know, because when we can get engaged with them, our energy makes a difference. So rather than thinking, eat the food because it's new, eat the food, you know, it's like, come on, let's have play with it. You know, is there bits that you can hide and put into treats and into treat bowls?

Can I just pause you there for one moment? Can I just say to all of the viewers out there, That's not that we're encouraging you to take the quail's leg and suck the bone and eat it whilst it's raw so that they're joining in, okay? It's just that you've got to be part of that behavioural relaxation. Okay, carry on, Julianne. I don't know how that came across.

Just out of panic. No, no, no, so I'm not talking like one leg for you, one leg for him. I mean, for goodness sake.

This is for you.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So I had, I had a bit of kitchen roll, was holding on to the foot and like, you know, playing with it dangling so that he could kind of paw at it and things. It went nowhere near my mouth at all whatsoever. This is not for vegans, or not for me. Um, so thank you for clarifying. So bring in— I've lost my train of thought now.

Sorry.

Um, what was the question? Right, yes, bring in the play, the bonding element, bring in the curiosity element, and, um, make it fun. You know, I'm very lucky with my boys, they, they tell me when they're hungry. You know, yes, we put a plate down. Max eats high. Leo just, he wouldn't even entertain it. He's on the floor, you know, near somewhere where he can hide away. Sometimes he actually eats behind the sofa, you know, that's how we got him to eat in the heatwave. So it's about reading the cat and knowing what they're interested in. But like we've talked before about, you know, cubes of meat and things, it's all very new. So give it to them as fun and as play and be curious yourself about what they'll do with it. You know, don't put it down and expect them to eat it straight away and get frustrated when they don't. You know, have a bit of meat, play with it with the cat, and, you know, enjoy that kind of— that this new chapter that you're going into, you know, approach it with that, that energy. I think it's important as well. Did I answer the question?

Yeah, I absolutely agree that, you know, getting a little bit of the prey drive, a little bit of hunting stuff going on, physiologically works. It gets their parasympathetics ready for digestion, and actually that drives them, their hunger. It makes them want to take that next step. Um, you know, the smells and things like that that then come into it following that exercise. And both of you have talked about, you know, the hiding away, that, you know, cats do not like to sit in the middle of a polished floor exposed to everything and people walking around them to eat. You know, I often say to people, look, you know, how many times do you read those books on the bookshelf? You know, they're there for show. Take half of them off, put a grippy covering on maybe a carpet tile or something like that onto the other half and actually give them a shelf that they can perch on and be covered over effectively looking out on things as to where to eat.

Brilliant. That's a brilliant suggestion, Brendan. I've never thought of that. That's a really great idea.

Yes, you know, those, those are just those little things. And the water stuff, if, if your cats will probably reduce their amount of water intake when they're on raw Just because they are desert creatures, they will absorb a lot of their moisture from their food and then not necessarily urinate loads. But if we're really concerned because they've got other problems, maybe renal disease, maybe, you know, issues with crystals, which we're going to cover in the future, then, you know, encouraging them to drink more, absolutely. But put that way away. I usually put it on a windowsill in a nice ceramic or other sort of glass dish, not plastic, and so that they can see the reflection on the surface. That's the meniscus that we see, we call that, and that gives them somewhere totally different to drink water. None of this dual bowls. Dual bowls are to give them a little bit of choice of different foods, different raw foods, etc., sometimes, but they're not for water in one half and food in the other.

Okay, that's what And another thing, now that you mentioned bowls, is that please clean them because I've seen, like, a few years ago—

That's what my dogs are for.

Sorry, I did, you know, I did cat sitting because, well, it was fun. And one of the things that I noticed is that the water bowl It was never, you know, it was refilled but never washed. And it's important to wash it. It's important because then you have that slime of bacteria around. It's awful. The cats will hate it and they won't drink water. And it's more frequent than you would think. Okay, so that's why I mention it, because it's not only the material that you use in the bowls, it's also washing them. Because I'm assuming that if you're giving raw, you're already washing every single time you put a meal, but just in case.

Not only that, you know, if you're putting them on the windowsill, okay, there's all sorts of pollutants that are going to get into that water. And if you're not replacing— just because the water bowl hasn't changed height, okay, doesn't mean that you just leave it there. You know, there's all sorts of elements that are going to be dissolving into that from the environment, from, you know, just day-to-day stuff. You want to be emptying that at least daily. Okay. And just refilling it with new stuff. We will talk in the future about filtered or not. You know, let's talk about transitions.

Yeah, we're sort of going off topic here a little bit, but I love the fact that Heidi said, sorry guys, but I'm not up for playing with stinky trike mix to make it fun. I'm with you there, Heidi.

Well, I wasn't meaning drag it across your floor for the parade. No, we're not doing that.

So what about, we've talked about toppers and sort of like placement. What about like how to do it? You know, like, so, you know, I'm going to emcee for a little and throw this question to you first, Brendan, and then to Ameya. So like, you know, if you decide, you know, you've set your realistic expectation and you've got your bowls ready, you've got your placement ready and you're like, yeah, I'm going to try this brand, right? I'm good to go. Starting blocks, what would you do next? So what would you advise people do next, Brendan?

Look, so if there's a lot of debate about sudden transition and just relax, if they don't eat it, don't worry, just keep a small amount available, make sure it's in their standard bowl. You know, we've talked about all the behavioral stuff already and just put it in that place. And if they don't eat it, you know, over the couple of hours of dusk and dawn. We've talked about dusk and dawn before. I would literally then just be, you know, either throwing it away, getting out the next spoonful for the next time, and just doing a hard, you know, look, you're not going to starve yourself, you will be encouraged. I think that's all very well for me as a clinician to give, to prescribe to people, but I know for an absolute fact, and we touched on it right at the beginning of this, that we all get really stressed when our cats don't eat. And so I do I do say to people, you know, if they've been on an old food, that I have no issue if they want to mix through that food into the new. I don't tend to do a half-and-half choice or anything like that, although some people do use those bowls, those dual bowls, to do that. So they'll sort of add a little bit of the new stuff next to the old just to sort of like try and fool the cats into thinking it's all one thing. I absolutely think that actually mixing it through is the way to do it if you're going to use an old food, especially with some of these sort of in jelly sachet foods and things like that. You know, mashing those up and mixing it through some raw is an option, and it just fools the cats into, no, I know that smell, and that's really an overpowering smell compared to the raw. I'm going to go with that. Okay, okay. Amaya, what's yours? What's your sort of, um, select choice? Well, mixing them across.

First of all, I put the Eye of the Tiger soundtrack just to keep myself inspired.

Exciting.

If I'd have known that, I'd have got that ready and primed so we could have played that.

Right, I'm gonna look that up quickly. We've gotta get that, get it, get the soundtrack.

Track. Every time we start RPM Cats, we've got to start with our tune.

You wait till next month.

So once you're inspired to do that, then what I do is— well, let's say you remove kibble, then you're in the wet zone with wet food and you're trying to get into raw. I actually agree with you, I tried to mix it And I try with very, very small amount of the new food and mix it and try to use that jelly kind of thing, which it's, I think it's tapioca starch. I don't know if that's tapioca, it's the name in English. So I know that if it's that, I'll try to put that on the mix and I'll start adding a little bit more every single time once they get adapted to eating that. Because there are some cats that even if you put just a single scoop, a small amount, they will just put it away. Okay, so if that doesn't work, the other thing that I do is that I expose it. I just put, but not into different bowls, but I put a smaller amount of food of the old one and just a small, like really close to the border of the bowl, just like laying there. And I just leave it there because they are going to feel hungry after they ate whatever they actually liked. And then sometimes I got the, they actually took the other new food because it was, oh, this wasn't enough, so I'm just gonna take the other one. And I did this, for example, with my cat because a brand here actually had made raw, already made raw, but now they decided to make wet food based on raw, and which is very high quality, and my cat, didn't like anything. So I said, let's have this just in case, you know, I forget to buy raw or it's not enough. And I started trying them and I put, I just mixed it and my cat hated it. It's like, what are you doing? This is my raw and you're mixing it with this. What is that thing around, right? So I did this the other way around, just put it a little bit near the bowl, separated from the from the raw food, and he actually ate it, and now he loves it. So yeah, after I tried several times, one over and over again, this actually worked. But usually I would go for your tip and mix it all and start slowly and use the toppers and, you know, relax with the music that I just suggested.

How about you? Yeah, how do you go, Julianne? Come on. What's yours?

Oh, I'm different to you two, I have to say. So I'm, I'm, I'm slower. And we, we started off with the two plate method. So a plate down of their normal food, plate down of the— a little bit of the new food for a couple of meals. And actually what I do is I do that every other meal for like 2 or 3 days. It's not every single meal because I've had one of my cats has been very, very sensitive, like very sensitive. The new plate went— the two plates went down. Walked away, wouldn't, you know, wouldn't come back to his normal food for hours. So, you know, I, I probably— and this is again probably the extreme, I appreciate that— but we've gone really slow. So we've done 2 plates for every other meal, just side by side. Um, and again, there are the odd times, like Ameya said, the cat will go to sniff it, maybe lick it, maybe lick at it. Um, and then we— then I migrate it onto the same plate. So, but again, I'm probably looking at like 2 weeks after we've started to introduce a new food. You know, I am, I am, I am risk-averse, like, in my life. So I will do things very slow because I want to, to take my time. I want it to work, you know. And we've had instances with the cats before where, you know, they've not eaten for 5 days, ended up at the vet's and things. So I have, you know, probably trauma there around transitioning food. So we do it very slow. So we would then go to the one plate and I don't mix it in until they're, you know, if for example, with Leo, until he's clearing his old food and the new stuff's there, you know, and then I will start to mix it in because again, we've had instances where mix it in, they walk away, mix it in, they walk away, and I'm like, I've got to get food in this cat, you know. So for me, it is much, much slower. But that's based on my experience, you know, and the cats that we've had. I've never really had a cat that's been very food driven because I think if a cat is food driven, you may have a much more, much easier transition to shift dry to wet, wet to raw, whatever, you know. You know, um, whereas my cats haven't been. They've all been very cautious type cats, you know. Even with baby Max, he's very friendly, he's very cuddly, he's very social, but when it comes to food, you know, it— like I said, it's taken us— we started in what, February, and it's, you know, we're August and we're still between the three, you know. We haven't— we've had weeks when we've had him fully on raw, and I know a couple of people, which I'm hopeful we'll get time to address, mentioned that they did really well, the cats on raw for a few weeks. Then they stop eating it, you know. And we've had to kind of almost, in my opinion, take a back step, in my view. Um, but we're much slower in our house, and that's how I advise my clients. So when one says to me, oh, we put raw food down the next morning and he's eaten it ever since, like, it rocks my world because I've never had that or done that ever.

I, I have— I had a cat that actually took 6 months to, to change, uh, to switch food. And, and it, it was kind of your your experience, I had to, you know, take a step back. And, but what I tried to do is not to, you know, overwhelm guardians, because if I— sometimes if I see that they're very, very addictive, I would go to your, your method and go slowly. Or if I see that they are very— that they would like to do it very slowly, they are not in a rush or anything, I would probably use some of your methods that you mentioned. But if I see that someone is very anxious or, I don't know, usually I look at the human, not the cat.

I was going to say, I know I'm a bit controlling, that's okay. I know I'm a bit freaky, okay, that's okay.

So I take a look at the human and then I decide what method I'm going to use. And then if I see that there has to be behavior work before Actually, switching foods, that's what I would do first. And then I always tell them, don't be afraid to take a step back. Because if you get too stressful and you're like, oh my God, he's not eating, or you're driving yourself crazy, you're not gonna get there because your cats need to feel safe, as you mentioned before, Brendon. You cannot put them exposed in the middle of somewhere they need to feel safe. And safety also comes from the human. If the human feels so stressed, some cats are going to say, what's going on? Why are you looking at me like that? Like, you bitch.

Yeah. So, please don't stare at me like that.

I'm not watching. I'm not watching.

What are you doing?

Yeah. And I own that completely, right? Totally, totally own that, you know. And that's why, like, you know, I— that's why I'm being completely honest. Like, for some people it happens really quickly, others not so much. And I completely agree with you, Maya, the humans have a big role to play in it. Very, very much so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think that, that, that thing of— I have got owners that will literally sit there and stare at their cats, willing them to eat, willing them to eat, and I'm just like please do not. You know, this is the beauty of dawn and dusk. You know, dusk, you just put it there. It's nighttime. You know, worst case scenario, it's going to be slightly dried in the morning. Go to bed, let the cats do what they want to do. And if they, you know, will— if they eat it, brilliant. If they don't, throw it in the bin. You know, it's— yeah, so can we touch— I think we need to— we're already 50 minutes in. Wow. Can we touch on this whole thing about neophilic versus the ones which are just set in their ways. So the ones that just constantly changing the foods that they want to have. And Beth, you know, this sort of deals with where you're at with this, you know, constantly rotating proteins and wondering how many proteins you have to throw away before they're going to eat. What have you come across with that, you know, that neophilic cat scenario? Do you find that a lot? Do you find that actually it's more the other way, that it's the stubborn cat that really is not going to want to change what they eat? And how do you address that with transition?

Well, I found that neophilic cats are mostly— it's a behavioral issue that you will find that they're picky in other ways in their lives, and they're afraid of changing, and they're afraid of changes, and Most of the time what I try to tell people is that it's okay to be aware that they don't like change, but after working in animal protection services, what I noticed is that cats actually like change. The problem is that they don't like the change that does not benefit them. If you do something that actually will bother their inner peace, then that's not a good change. But if you make changes that actually are good for them, they are open to change. So I found that's the same thing, that's my experience with cats, cats that are really, really picky that, you know, or maybe you just put chicken and they will only eat chicken because that's what they like and whatever. Most of the time I found out that there are other pickiness around in the house And I try first to address that. I use a lot of self-selection. And then I decide to change food. Actually, food is kind of the last thing I change. Every time I find, I find myself like struggling with transition, I try to look anywhere else to see where the problem is and then make an adjustment in food. Because food, it has to, for me, it's related to safety. They need to feel safe. And if they don't feel safe, neophilic, if their cat already has this neophilic sense, then this will be increased. But if the cat is open and learns how to adapt better, which that it's different in every cat, of course, then I will find other strategies for transition. So that would be my experience. Encounter myself with many neophilic cats. Impossible.

Okay, and for you, Julianne?

Oh, I don't know if you can hear, I've got Leo yelling at the bottom of the stairs.

Mum, have you finished yet?

Yeah, are you talking about me? What was the question? I'm distracted now by the cat behind me.

It's about, you know, how you address those neophilic cats versus the ones that are set in their ways. You know, are you, are you prone to sort of constantly changing foods when you give out advice, or are you— how do you stop people wasting so much if they're doing that constantly?

Yeah. So again, like Amaya said, you know, you look at the cat and is it showing up in other areas? You know, I would— my experience myself, and I've suggested to clients, when you buy frozen food like raw food and things, it's very rare you could buy a box, you know, or like a tray. You know, you've got to buy a minimum of like 5 kilograms or 20 sachets or whatever it is. So, you know, you invariably have some in the freezer at some point. So, you know, we used to feed Pickle the same protein all the time because I thought that was the right thing to do. Now I've learned that, you know, you need to— you want to vary the protein. So I now see it actually as a good thing that they will, you know, be what we call picky, I think it's about our reframing. They're sharing that they're ready for the next protein. They need whatever components, you know, beef has over chicken or chicken has over venison or, you know, whatever it may be. Maybe they need a slightly fattier meat. Maybe they need a slightly leaner meat. You know, I try to change my perspective about it rather than, you know, looking at the cat and thinking they're picky, they're bad, they're frustrating me. It's like, well, actually, what am I viewing about this? The best way to not waste raw cat food is to have— I completely agree. Totally agree with that, Marta. We've had situations where Max hasn't eaten a plate, so I've put it down for Leo and Leo's eaten. I'm like, yes, score! Plate not wasted. But equally, like, you know, when you are transitioning, and in fact even if you have a cat, there will be plates that you will need to ditch. There will be meals that they won't eat that, like Amaya said, you've had down for too long, or it's been put in this maybe just slightly grubby bowl or whatever. You know, you, you know, there are times when us humans cook something and it doesn't taste how you think it's gonna, and you probably have a couple of spoonfuls and 'Oh God, you know what, I can't eat that,' you know. I remember making a paella and putting so much chili in it we couldn't even have a second mouthful. So, you know, it's— it's— I think that's about our perspective and what we're projecting onto the cat around that. I think it's good to try and involve a variety of proteins, make sure you've got space in the freezer. We had to get a second freezer that's outside for all our cat food because we've got different brands, because they've got different qualities and components to them, you know, which was part of trying to give a balanced diet.

Yeah, and I think, you know, roll on that, that people realizing if your cat is, you know, stable and eating that minced chicken food, you know, over and over again, and you think that you're doing it right, I would absolutely implore you to have a little bit of variety in there because that single source or that continual feeding the same thing over and over again is the reason deficiencies and excesses happen in dietary problems. Okay? Because if you give variety, then actually the body has the opportunity to absorb different nutrients at different rates from those other foods. If you just give the one thing over and over again, that's when you're at risk of those deficiencies creeping in. And that's probably one of the big concerns over balance that many vets have with patients, but that actually reflects for the processed foods exactly the same things are a concern, that if you're feeding one processed food over and over again, you are at high risk of a poor diet because of a balance issue. Okay, even though they say they're complete and balanced, there is still a risk.

You're just setting yourself up, aren't you, you know, for intolerances and immune issues. And actually, like, you know, you It's like I said, I learned the hard way, but it is important to feed a varied diet. So if your cat won't eat chicken the next day or they, you know, they've gone off the food, great. See it as an opportunity. What can I try with you next? Rather than, for goodness sake, why won't you eat that?

And also, for example, in my case, as I mentioned in the beginning, that, for example, lamb is not a meat that they want now. My cats usually get 5 different protein proteins along the month, right? I do, I shop just once a month and I put everything in the freezer and I try to have 4, 3 of them are basic, are the only, the always there. Their favorite, it's rabbit, but then they will have some chicken, some turkey, some beef, and some lamb. Well, I said 5, 5 then. And then when lamb came around, lamb in the summer wasn't a choice. I started using others. I bought another one and tried it out. And well, it didn't come as expected, but anyway, I'll keep trying. So every single time I just buy a little amount of a new one. I keep trying in small amounts and add it up and say, okay, do you like it or not? Just like that, if I'm very patient, sometimes that meat actually stays. For example, the one that I used was wild, that it's, I think it's venison, but I'm not sure. Which, that's the one I used. Or duck, for example, duck also, they don't usually like it. A cat is going to get across here, there you go.

Oh, don't try and trump me!

There we go!

Hello! You've done it now, you've gone!

You're on camera!

I don't care, I eat everything you put on a plate, I don't care.

Totally stole my thunder there.

So all we're waiting for is a raw food company that starts to rear little mice and chicks, and that's all they put in in their entirety. So they've just got two flavors that they just keep swapping between.

And in a— please not in a disgusting way, because for what I've seen so far is like they're all whole mice. And I tell people it's really good for fiber, you know, and they're like, yeah, no way, I'm not buying.

With a little ear stuck out of one corner of the cube.

And they're like, no, I'm not buying that, that's disgusting. So just all brands over there, just listen to that.

Oh look, Kaiserbrink has mice bins. Marvelous, I love it.

Yeah, they do whole chicks and things as well. They do amazing.

There you go.

I haven't tried that.

Yeah, I wonder which lab they're reared in. You know, it's like, yeah, some genetic freaks or something.

Just like, oh, you just made it worse.

That's been a wonderful session, guys. Lots of tips for loads of people to try transitioning. And, you know, good luck for you guys out there if you are struggling. I'm sure, you know, lots more support we can give you over the coming months. We've got some further dates in the diary already. These guys have properly organized me to make sure that there's dates in my diary.

Um, so, um, and I'm the OCD one, like I said, like low risk, you know, high organized, like let's get the dates in, people, come on, you know, we've got to show up for everybody. I'm an organizer, I admit it.

Yeah, thank God.

We're always open to more people to put in, uh, lots more different, um, suggestions of what they want to talk about. I think there's loads of things. There's renal disease we've got to touch on. That's a big one I think we're going to bring in because loads of people panic when their cats have kidney disease and they're scared to feed raw. And actually, I'd encourage them to. So yeah, we can touch on that and how we address that in the coming months. But so many other projects are on crystals and crystal urine. All sorts of things. Hypothyroidism we can touch on. So we're going to be dealing with those sort of things going forwards. But if you've got any specific sort of nutritional questions, you know, stuff about balance, bone material levels— somebody mentioned earlier— yeah, we can deal with that too. So look forward to seeing you guys soon.

I have to say, Brendan, when you said that there's a topic about crystals, my first thought was like amethyst and citrine. Oh, we're gonna do—

well, if you go off and start talking about that, that's absolutely your bag. You can do that, no problem whatsoever. Um, I'll have my rose quartz on the shelf up here.

Just, uh, urinary crystals, right? Okay, I get it.

I think everybody watching will be perfectly happy with you going through healing crystals. Yes, you're absolutely fine with that. So look, guys, you know, we've done a really good stint here, and thanks so much for joining us. Thank you, Amaia, all the way from Madrid in the burning heat, I'm sure.

And I managed to stay.

Yes.

And the police didn't drag you off. We only heard one siren. It was fine. And Julianne, thank you again so much. Cats Naturally, Naturally Cats. Which face naturally cats get the right way around. Slap myself later. Um, and thank you to Brendan for being our awesome host as well. Oh yeah, well, you know, it's, it's great to have some feline friends. It really is. So thank you so much, and thank you to all of our wonderful audience and all of your comments. I look forward to speaking to you soon.

Take care.