RawSafe Tuesday night live: Dental Care

We're just on time as we start. You've caught us clapping.

We are clapping to try and synchronize the audio and the video, and we can't even do that. We can't even clap in unison, the two of us. How reassuring is that? Good evening, everybody. It's 7 o'clock. It's Tuesday, the 14th of June. It is the most beautiful day. Bren, have you been out today at all?

Actually, I went out this glorious morning, wonderful time, and then I have been poring over cases and trying to catch up with so many things. I'm training other vets and doing the nurses, and you do a lot of conversations with them. And just, but look, part of the bit I enjoy, you know. Sort of nipping into theatre still, sort of like trying to pass on any information I can to those around me.

But it's wisdom to the younger persons. Amazing. Fantastic.

Makes me feel so old.

It's great to see everybody here. Maudie's here. Joyce Morley is here. Rach Mac. Hey everybody, it's very good. Diane Keaveney is here and Heidi Dixon. Great, guys. Everybody's lining up. Fantastic. Great. What have you been up to, Bren, this week? Anything exciting?

So we had a great ball, a blast on Sunday, didn't we?

I mean, that was just an inside scoop with Rodney Habib. You may have heard of him, guys.

Yes.

There was the three of us lined up and he was on the end and he was saying, this is like the— I want to be the fourth Beatle. So what we should do, Brent, is let's invite him on in a month or so.

And be very careful, be very careful. You're saying that, Karen will be watching. You know, we've got to be really careful here. Karen was watching us on Sunday and had some comments to make.

Well, she claims that she's the fourth Beatle. And I said, well, maybe we can be like Earth, Wind and Fire and have you know, a 7-piece lineup and, you know, the guy on the bongos as well as the guy on the drum and 3 lead guitars and 3 rhythm guitars and some dancers and some backing singers. And so I think we can maybe go there and we can expand the family so that we can all come together. Yeah, whatever, whatever keeps Habib happy would be good.

Oh, indeed.

Fantastic. Oh, Jennifer. Jennifer says dramatic. Jennifer's Dramatic Paul says we were great on Sunday. Jennifer, you can stay. We like you very much. Thank you. So, um, yeah, we had an amazing time.

Won the pinch post pots. There you go. Oh, did the person—

oh, let's have a look. Janet. Okay. Oh, well, they will be winging— that will be winging its way over to you very pronto. If it doesn't, let me know, Janet. Please, please, please. Um, yeah, great stuff. Well done. You, you'll really love those, that's for sure. Can I tell you what I was— I will be doing tomorrow and, uh, and Thursday, Bren? I'm going to the Sustainable Food Trust, uh, annual conference where they're getting speakers on, uh, sustainable and regenerative, uh, agriculture and food production. And so we're going to be And the weather tomorrow is going to be absolutely glorious. It's up in Stow-in-the-Wold, which is near Chipping Norton, which is where I was raised. So it's going to be like going home, going to be in the Cotswolds, lots of deep-thinking, ecologically-minded people. It's going to be an absolute blast for a couple of days. I can't wait.

Oh, brilliant.

That's my plan.

Yeah. Oh, well, you're going to update us next week with all of that stuff.

Yeah, absolutely. I'll give you all the gen. And actually, then on Saturday, I've got the Natural Pet Healthcare Show in London. And so if you haven't heard about that, or if you're in or near London, come along to that. It's just a big natural health show, as the name suggests. Does what it says on the tin. So yeah, I'm going to be speaking at that, and there's going to be lots of alternative and complementary people there talking about health, health, health. And so it's going to be really exciting. So looking forward to that. We've actually got quite a summer of talks and stuff, haven't we?

There's quite a few things going on through the summer, all the way through to our conference with the RFVS in September and a few talks beyond. So it's, yeah, it's going to be quite a hectic time fitting all of those things in.

That's the Raw Feeding Veterinary Society conference. Yeah. And where— that's on the— is that the 25th, Bren? Have you got—

24th of September. 24th of September.

24th of September. And that's an online thing, isn't it?

Is that right? I'm sure. Yes, yes, online. Although there'll be a few of us getting together, but it's online.

A few of us will get together, but it's an online thing. So that'll be great. So wherever you are in the world, you can check out that. That's the Raw Feeding Veterinary Society. There are a few other notices that we need to do. So the first one I'd like to do that thanking our Patreon supporters. And what our Patreon supporters do is they very, very kindly every month— because normally Brady does this, so I'm going to do it in the Thompson fashion— and it's basically you guys are really kindly giving us a small amount of money. It's a dollar, a quid, a couple of quid, 5 quid, sometimes even 10 quid. But you're just saying thank you very much for every Tuesday night giving us your time every Tuesday afternoon for researching what you're going to do and what have you, and, and, you know, sharing, delivering, and what have you. So I just want to say thank you, thank you very much. Bren has put somewhere down here on the—

yes, there is—

it'll be coming across. So if you want to contribute to that, and that really helps us to make sure we've got good equipment, make sure we've We pay our podcast guy so that we can get our message out to lots and lots and lots of people. You can listen to us while you're walking the dog, for example. And so, yeah, really big thanks for that. What other things do we have to say? Oh, Candident. Do you want to do the Candident thing?

Yeah, there is. We've got a great giveaway, so look out for the post when we finish here. If you want to share it with your friends, all you need to do, like our page, share the link with your friends, post a picture of your dog's teeth. Okay, so we'll show you a picture of the sort of side-on view. You don't need to open their mouths, you just literally lift their lips back, take a photo, post it with your comment. Okay, and by the end of the week, I think 9 PM on Friday, Mr. Brady is going to draw, or probably Karen actually, because Karen does everything for Brady. He's going to— She is the is going to draw the winner, and they will be sent a whole load of Canadent, a large bag of Canadent, free of charge, anywhere in the world. I'm going to say, because he said that on Sunday, so I'm going to say anywhere in the world. So don't be ashamed if you are South African or you're in Australia or in America. I'm going to chuckle at Conor's face when he has to send it around the world. So please post your pictures, as many as you can. Okay, I don't care whether they're beautiful teeth because you're feeding raw or you're new to raw and you want to show what your dog's teeth are like, or cat's teeth as well. That'll be a challenge because I'm sure he's going, 'Can I dent?' No, it's only for dogs, but you can give a little bit to cats. It's just you've got to be careful if they're hyperthyroid. We'll talk about that later.

Rowan Godfrey's in Kenya. I really hope Rowan wins because that will, that will be, that'll be really difficult to get post something.

If there's anybody listening on the moon or any moons of Jupiter, please, please, the real, real wild Canada, you know, that you can only get there by sled dog.

Yeah, the more out of the way the better. Yeah, out of Mongolia. Good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, Peter Smith out of Mongolia. That's the kind of address we want to see. Right.

He knows me too well. I'm going to have a private word with Karen to say, please, please, please, can you make sure when you randomly pick somebody, it's not random, it's from the other side of the world? I won't be that cruel. In fact, actually, I think Brady has just let me know that it might be the best 3. So there's 3 opportunities, okay, to get your hands on some freebies this week. So let's see how we go.

Other than that, I've got one more, one more notice and be afraid, be very afraid. You know what I'm going to say? Yeah. I'm going to say it. Okay. Guys, this is— I did it off the top of my head. I heard Chris Evans say that every— we'll just talk about guys, okay, because otherwise personal. But I heard 20 years ago, I heard Chris Evans say that all men's nipples are X distance apart. Off the top of my head last week, I said 12 inches, and that's a little bit generous. And Karen's better half measured his, and he was really disappointed because he was only 9 inches. And I thought, oh God, you What am I doing here? But actually, I've just measured mine before I came on, and it's 9 inches. So if any gentlemen— girls, don't even go there— if there are any gentlemen who are listening tonight, if you've got a ruler handy or whatever, please really just measure the distance between your nips. And I think it might be—

totally given me a complex now, because obviously I've made sure that everything That's that wide, it's 12 inches apart. So that's 12 inches. I've taken it as red.

So, oh mate. So guys, men, that is measure your nips and just let us know just so we can validate this or not. And Brendan, I'd like you to do it before the show is out.

For all of you women out there with husbands, you can join in by measuring the distance and posting their distance too, and we can see if the science really does speak the truth. Uh, without any further ado, we're going to avoid Montgomery glands and we're going to move on to the subject of tonight.

So we're talking about dental health, which is absolutely massive, massive in people, in, in the human world over the last 20 years or so. There is a branch of medicine, the branch of dentistry which is called periodontology. And this is essentially looking at the health of the gap between your teeth and your gums, because there's a lot going on there immunologically, anatomically, structurally, minerally, if that's such a word. There's a lot going on. And there's so much going on that it is a study of itself. And when you get periodontitis, when your you get a chronic gingivitis for whatever reason, you will get a dump of bacterial toxins into your bloodstream. And on a day-by-day-by-day-by-day basis, it's like drinking poison all day long in minute quantities, but significant nonetheless. And that in humans, and I think it's similar in dogs, is associated with cardiovascular disease, with liver disease, with basically name an organ and it's got a disease. But also it's associated with Alzheimer's, cancer, low birth weight babies. So this is really profound stuff. It's not just having a nice Maclean's minty smile. It's much more than that. It is fundamental to your health. And it is exactly the same in dogs, which is why we're devoting— when we're not talking about nipples and Mongolia, we're devoting the entire show to dental health. What are your opening thoughts, Bren?

Oh, look, there is some really interesting research out there on dental care and the effects on heart disease, the effect on kidney disease, the effect on even things like pancreatitis and cancers within the pancreas across species. And I think, you know, it is such an important area, and I get asked so often why, you know, why are we even looking in their mouths and dealing with that? They've got all of these other big problems and say, you know, I've just talked to them about heart disease and I'm looking in their mouths and talking about their dog's teeth and they're going, why? Why am I even going to look at that? And actually trying to get across, it's all very well you saying the dog's got a heart problem, but actually if there's constant huge amounts of bacteria in the mouth, so those Yorkies where their teeth are so gross that they're almost falling out, yet they're hanging on by some thread. Every time that poor dog eats something, bacteria flooding into the bloodstream, and this is where you get it seeding out onto the heart valves and effectively giving them an endocarditis of those valves that can really be critical for their quality of life and how long they're going to live. We need to get rid of that. If, yeah, okay, for one-off, there may be circulating bacteria if we do dental work, but actually that's better than a twice a day surge of bacteria if they're eating twice a day for the rest of their lives. So we've got to look at how we can cut that risk down. Now, for many of you guys, some of the stuff we're going to talk about today, it will be about prevention. It's going to be about never getting to that point. It's going to be about raw food feeding. We're going to talk about the different things that we can do to enhance their oral health by changing up their foods, et cetera, in the raw field. But just so that you're aware, if you're new to this, if you've just joined the Raw Revolution and you're just ditching the dry— go on, show your t-shirt off, I know you want to— then ultimately you may already have some dental issues for your pets and you want to know how to get them. So we're also going to talk about how to deal with that too.

Amazing.

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. And so for, for you, Nick, what's your go-to if somebody's sort of coming to raw and, um, you're sort of advising about dental health? What sort of information have you had in the past about why raw is good for, for teeth?

Well, I think just going raw is, is good, but I think as part of raw, you have got to have some bones in there, or at the very least, you've got to have some substantial chews. You know, there's a lot of chews, really, really quite chunky chews these days, which will have a really good cleaning effect. If you're scared of feeding bones, I've done a video, it's called Bones and How to Feed Them. And, um, I think that that was a, uh, something that you can have a look at. Okay, I'm trying to plug it, but basically it's just lots of information all in one space, so definitely worth a, a look there. Um, and so just going raw on its own, I'm afraid— and I am the world's biggest fan of raw food— is probably not enough. It will improve the the oral microbiome. And we're going to talk about oral microbiome. And there is, you know, gritty bony material. So there will be a certain amount of attrition, kind of sandpaper effect as you chew, as you chew, as you chew. But I think to really get the gold standard would be a good chunky or fine, depending on what the day— it doesn't really matter what the texture of the everyday food is, but some chews on a regular basis and bones on a regular basis, uh, don't just jump into marrow bones because especially with a dog who's not eaten raw for years and years and years, okay, uh, marrow bones are very big, they're very tough, they've got all the fibers kind of all facing the same way. They are designed to allow a ton of cattle to, uh, a cow to roam across the earth. Okay, so they're very, very, very strong, and so they're quite brittle. So if you're— if you've got a dog who's an advanced raw feeder, then you will probably be okay. If you've had a puppy who's been on, on bones since they're a baby and what have you, they'll probably be okay with a marrow bone. Also, marrow bones filled with loads of fatty marrow, and that could give you the squits as well. So Don't go for those to start with. If you just want— can I give them a minute on bones? Bones, it's like education, okay? You start with nursery and then you go to primary school, then you go to secondary school. That's how you educate anybody about anything, possibly. There are alternative education methods, but let's not go there. So nursery school will be the really soft stuff, things like chicken carcasses or soft-ish chews. You then go to primary school. Primary school would be duck necks, turkey necks, things like this. So they're fairly soft, fairly easy to manage and what have you. And then secondary school would be things like ribs, brisket, vertebrae, things like that. And I would say university level raw feeding, these are for the advanced dogs and dog owners would be considering the tougher bones. The thing about marrow bones is that they are sawn, and so you have this very sharp edge. And if you crunch that, it's classically into premolar 4 here, you can go, and you can give yourself a slab fracture. So I would say do nursery school, do primary school, do secondary school, and only then— and you don't even need to go to university— you can just stick with ribs and brisket and neck and all those kind of things. Any other thoughts on bone? Yeah, we could talk a whole show about bones, but absolutely.

I think a couple of things, you know, Rowan, absolutely agree. You know, heads can be a brilliant thing for larger dogs to go that. Now, it grosses some people out, and certainly my neighbors don't get particularly happy if they see the dog chewing a deer skull in the back garden. But, you know, it is an option that's there. Just the, the bone is relatively soft, and it's actually not just the bone that's particularly good. It's all of the sinew, it's the skin, it's the things on it that they're going to get. So they don't have the ability to grind from side to side. There isn't that grinding action for dogs and cats. It is just chomp, chomp. Okay. And so the only things that they truly will work those back teeth on are often things which are just got that sinew that they need to slice through, they need to scissor through, and that's the only reason that they'll be chewing away. Now, I love things like necks, etc., because I think that's really, really useful. But I think, you know, also remember if your dogs do have allergies to things like chicken and duck, turkey is as different from a chicken as lamb is from beef. You've got to remember there are different options out there. I would still even say quail, you know, a whole little quail for them to chew through is an option. Okay. And that's the whole carcass again. It's not just about the bone, but it's about them going through all of the cartilage and the sinews around that. So giving them access to whole carcass for little tinies. Look at the little tiny birds that they can get, okay, that you can give to them to feed on. Also bits of rabbit. So rabbit heads for the littlies. If we're going to talk here for littlies with ears, you can usually get— people buy whole rabbits. They'll be grossed out by the head, so they'll chop the head off and just, you know, give them— but you've got the whole bit about the whole head, the rest of the hide that's on there. So what have you got there? Just ears, rabbit ears?

I've got— well, I tell you what, I got this about 3, 4 weeks ago. It's from— lovely, this is from Ruby at The Real Dog Box. She's based in the States somewhere. Ruby, sorry, can't remember where you're from. I did know, but I've just forgotten. And they've done amazing. And there are lots of companies, even in the UK. So if you're in the States, check out the Real Doll Box. They seem like a great bunch. And in the UK, there are lots of people and lots of the food companies do them as well. But it's just as I just happen to have this next to me. These are furry rabbit's ears, which are rather nice.

They look like rabbit's feet from here. Not so lucky, mate, my friend.

You can put them on your key ring if you like. This Any, any thoughts on what that might be? It could be anything in this light, I guess. This is bison spleen. How cool is that? Bison spleen, my friend. Um, Gabrielle is saying kangaroo tails. Unbelievable. Yes, love it. Any, any tails are good. Um, if you want something a bit more— you know, I was saying that some of the chews are, are as good as feeding bone. Well, there This is the heavy chew of the month, and can you see what that's— that's a, that's a big old thing. That's about the size of a, of a plimp sole, a smallish—

yeah, and just, just for these guys, because some of them are saying, is that cooked? Okay, and I think you just need to discern the difference between air-dried and cooked. Just for the guys out there, what's the difference in your view?

Air dried is low temperature drying. You just, you know, in the old days, the Native American Indians would just hang things in the breeze and let them dry so that they've got meat material in the winter, for example. And nowadays they'll do it in kind of fanned, slightly warm but not hot, you know, no more than about 40-odd degrees to dry, dry, dry. They then put them into a into a, into a pack and send it to you. So things like that. Yeah, it's dry, lasts for a very long time. It's really, really healthy, and you can't really go wrong with those kind of things.

And Catherine, this is exactly what I was saying. For— I've got a Labrador, I know exactly what you mean. If the treat is small, it's chomp, chomp, swallow, it's gone. You know, even for some of the wings. This is why I really do advocate carcass material sometimes. Even frozen carcass material. You know, if it's a hot sunny day and you don't want all the flies coming from everywhere in the neighborhood, putting out that frozen carcass for them to start chewing on to get through can be just as useful. You know, I'm not talking about something that's been at -40 and is like rock hard and brittle. I'm talking about something that has just been in a normal freezer. You've maybe got out, hasn't finished defrosting, but it's cool enough just to be able to put out on the lawn with them. Okay, so have a little look at that. There's things to play with. That's the great thing about heads as well. There's no way a Labrador is going to just chomp, chomp, swallow a head. You know, it gives them something to really go at.

So Catherine, try a sheep's head. That'll slow him down a bit.

Yes. Or it looks like you're from South Africa, so it might well be, you know, something a bit more exotic.

No, her email is gazelle something. So that's why.

Oh, right. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. So excellent. So choose, choose, choose, and then migrate to bones, bones, bones. I think it's a really, really good idea. We remember we were having conversation a few days ago. What are you saying?

People that follow us and start to chuckle about what we were talking about on Sunday. Yeah. Whole ground squirrel, never mind the tail. Just like, you know.

Squirrel tails, fantastic. Yes, we've got loads of squirrels here, so if anybody wants to come and hunt those, you're very welcome.

Gray squirrels, pests of the earth.

Indeed.

My woodland.

Indeed. Okay, so, but remember we were talking about, and I'm not sure, no, actually I think we need to have a session on bones, actually, on, you know, feeding quantities of bones and of bioavailability, how much ground up they are, So, well, there was a really—

another really interesting article. I think this is quite a few years ago. You know, the lady from Pet Plus, Susie McIntyre, who's also a veterinary dentist in her previous life before Pet Plus. And she did a study with another veterinary dentist on feeding cats just raw. And it was a blended raw. It wasn't even a bone material. And they saw quite a large percentage decrease in gingivitis just by feeding that raw. And she used to talk about the thought that it was just because you were bathing those teeth, those gums in coenzyme Q10 from the meat that they were eating in that raw form. None of it was denatured. So the muscles are filled with antioxidants because otherwise your muscles just melt when you try and walk down the street, let alone running or anything like that. So they have to have a really good way of effectively taking out all those free radicals that are formed by metabolism. So those muscles in their raw form, as they're chewing through them, are effectively bathing the mouth in this whole plethora of antioxidants, which can only have some benefits. And I do know that somebody posted on the initial advertisement for tonight with regards to— they were surprised by how their dogs' mouths, just fed minced chicken, you know, the plaque and everything just disappeared within weeks of starting that raw diet, not without any brushing or anything like that. So there is an effect, and I would Absolutely agree with that. But I think there are other dogs in other states that don't always respond just to having raw. And as somebody stated earlier, is it going to stay bathed in the mouth long enough to actually truly bathe the teeth? Yes, they have to chomp through it, but once they've gone through it once, how long does that effect stay there? It's a little bit like the argument about if there's bacteria in the mouths of these animals, that's a risk to you because they've picked up something. Is that truly a risk? Is there truly that microbiota stuck there from their food for that long? I think it takes a little bit more than that. You know, things like Pasteurella in cats' mouths, that's not because it's come in on the food, that's because they've engendered an environment within their mouths that the Pasteurella can survive in. So we need to sort of take all of that in the round.

Okay, I do think though that Mother Nature in her wisdom is telling us that eating raw is a very good half of the equation, but physical— the physical effect of larger chewing material is also part of the deal. Yeah, you will get a certain, you know, certain dogs will get, you know, some of them doing very, very well just by going raw, you know, mushy, mincy, raw. However, I think for the real deal, I think there needs to be some bony material in there, is my impression. My dog, who is called Bluebell, you know Bluebell, guys, yeah, she, and she's 3 and a bit now, she was developing, this is really common in many raw dogs, I'm afraid to say, on her canine teeth just here, she developed a tiny little smidge of tartar, and I was absolutely mortified. And this was about 2 and a half years, and I thought, crumbs. And the— if, if somebody brought her to me, I'd say you need to eat more leathery hidey material. Not, not, uh, what are they called, bone hide chews, you know, the things with the tying tied up ends. They are death on a plate. Don't even think about those. But if you can get venison—

just to explain that, I think from the point of view of it's, it's the chemical tools that they, you know, extract and melt down all of that material with and the chemicals they've found on top of those raw hides. So, you know, to Pam, we're going to talk about this a little bit as Nick goes through this. So hopefully, listen, listen to this section, you'll know a little bit more about the non-true raw with blood dripping on treats that we feed.

So raw hide chews, do not touch them. These are the things that are tied at each end. They are very, very artificial. However, if you go to your raw store, your local raw store, don't know where you pampa in the UK. Practically every town nowadays— thank goodness— and Rodney was very impressed with this— practically every town has got a raw store. Nip along to them and say, um, what range of chewing of dry, just simply dried bits of animals have you got for me to chew? Our guys downstairs, they've got, they've got, um, horns from sheep and goats, they've got tendons which which have been, uh, um, braided. They've got, oh, uh, bits of, you know, all sorts of things. And they have bony, bony material. They have hooves. Yep, yep, yep. So lots, lots of options there. So I would say do a, do a pick and mix and see what works with your dog. If you've got big dogs, go for the very much bigger, you know, dinosaur-sized shoes, I would suggest. Is a good idea. And if you've got a smaller dog, you can go for whatever size chew because they will take a while to get through that. But I think chews, very, very important. Anyway, I was saying, this is my little story, is that she was developing a little bit of tartar just on the top of that canine, which is not unusual for raw-fed dogs. And just, um, Joe at Ingenious sent me some of this stuff. Can you see that? It's a bit like this, it's by a company called Lucar Plus and Ingenious is the company in the UK who distributes and he sent me this and I'd been using the allergy spray which is a probiotic spray for skin and I thought that's quite a useful thing to use and he was saying this will clear tartar and I thought, oh really? And so I tried it, and I only gave her 2 or 3 sprays, checked her 2 weeks later, and it was actually clear. So actually, this is really, really quite useful. So I think your options, if you've just got a bit of tartar there and the teeth are fundamentally good, then, you know, Chews and Bones, yes. Canident, check out dogsfirst.ie, and there's, you know, there's a link in the thing here that The Fourth Beetle has put on. And So definitely the chewing. But if you want to just change the microbiome and the, the kind of the, the, the seaweed will change kind of the viscosity of the saliva and the biofilm which is on there. You, Bren, you were saying something about something that acts a bit like seaweed and and to do with biofilms and how they're created.

So I know that some of you guys that may use Bella and Duke, they actually went out and found a product from the States called TEF, T-E-F, and it's basically looked at how those algal formulas that are used for teeth and dental health and did some work on the how plaque is formed. And we'll come to Canada in a moment because that's one of those algal— I'll call them algal, but seaweed is another name for those.

Yeah.

And they looked at the how to interrupt the communication between the bacteria that forms this plaque, which then when it mineralizes, usually with some sort of calcium salt, becomes Tartar. So let's get this straight for everybody out there. The start point is you get mucus that dries in the mouth, and the bacteria are there munching away on that and eating, you know, all of that mucus and all the debris that's in the mouth.

And that's called plaque.

And when they create an initial film, a biofilm, that is called plaque, as Nick quite rightly says. And that's the stuff that if you put the dye on will stain pink across the teeth. And that's the bit that they tell you to brush off every day because realistically that biofilm should break down with you physically interacting. And there's a couple of options with that for dogs. There's a lot of groomers out there using EmiDog now, which is this ultrasonic brushing. And that they're doing for conscious dogs. I've seen that happen. But Teef is ultimately a product that you can dissolve in water and spray into the dog's mouths. You can dissolve in the water that they drink and they can just drink it, and it effectively is secreted back out. It's acting on the biofilm to interrupt that communication, stop the bacteria from being able to multiply and grow there. And, you know, some of the work that they went on to look at with the oral microbiota was just identifying such bacteria as Porphyromonas, which actually in humans has been associated with causing pancreatic cancer and pancreatitis. So there is yet more evidence that the importance of dental health and the microbiota that's in there as to why we need to really be able to control that. So going back, there was an earlier comment with regards to they've got a raw-fed dog, and even with a raw-fed dog, they're still seeing some yellowing of the teeth, as you did with Bubba. And I think it may well be that you need to do that little bit more, that the wrong bacteria have got into the mouth and are managing to establish a biofilm. So look at all of these products like Teef, like Luka, like Canident, There are some other seaweed extracts out there, you know, VetPro and NutriVet do a dental oral care product which is seaweed-based as well. Canadent, we've got to say, look, it's got some great work, it's got more types of seaweed in it than the other products, and, you know, I think Conor has done a great job of putting that together. I don't get anything from it, do you, Nick?

I don't know, I don't make it. Somebody was—

yeah, somebody was I don't know why we're selling it.

We should just— I don't know why. You know, he—

yeah, he makes it— give it away, I think. Yeah, it's great for our dog's health and we want all of your dogs to be healthy.

So yeah, but the thing is, give away as much as possible. The thing is, um, it's a good product and, uh, what's more, he will give a money-back guarantee. So it, you know, you, you can't be robbed. So check it out. It's not because he's a mate, It's definitely not because we don't make commission. If everybody could sign a petition to say that Brendan and I really deserve lots of commission on every sale of Caledon, that would be really nice. So if somebody can organize that, please, Karen, that would be really good. Thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What else? What else we got? I think we're not going to cover half the stuff that we should see.

I think a pint. I think it's more than a pint, Rachel.

Probably half a pint, knowing him.

Yeah. Anyway, so from— anyway, okay, there's some other bits that we probably need to cover off. There's a few people, in fact, actually, here we go.

Um, lost you.

Asked, have you lost me? Can you hear me? Are you there? So, uh, can you see that? So, um, yeah, there are a couple of other options that are on there, so there are some things from homeopathy that you can use with regards to the teeth. So look at fragraria particularly. Fragraria is a remedy that we use to reduce plaque. It's a wild strawberry. So there you go. There's an off-the-shelf one. I think you will find that Dore West Herbs do actually sell fragraria as a homeopathic remedy over the counter.

So if you wanted to find some of those products, and that would be a 6x or a 12x, quite a low potency is what we typically use with Frigaria. Yeah, okay, cool, cool, cool. What about you? Where are you? Just, we've just got a few more minutes left, Ben. Where are you on the shall I brush my dog's teeth debate? Let's, let's have that for our final furlong.

Yeah, okay, so That's a really interesting one. I spent years and years and years teaching people how to brush teeth. So going from wrapping stockings around fingers and not trying to open their mouths, but just lift their lip back and get them used to being handled around their mouths. And I mean, it's useful because if we need to check their mouths, being used to having their mouths handled without it hurting, you know, is invaluable. So there is always that side of things. But, you know, really from a physical side of things, getting them used to that, putting on gels, you know, VetLife gels and things like that that can reduce gingivitis, all of those things we used to do, abrasive products to try and actually break that biofilm down. And there was a study in General Small Animal Practice that talked about the benefits, but it was a relatively small study and there were some biases within those studies because obviously the encouragement of doing that process was encouraging them to score the mouths better, so they had a lower score. And, but it was a relatively small number, and I think they did state more work needs to be done, and they didn't include any raw-fed dogs or any others that had treats, et cetera. So there is this thing about then moving on to a brush, a soft bristle brush, much softer than human ones, placing it along the palm of your hand with the head on your fingertips. So if you want to work out how painful it is, get your partner to brush your teeth with your toothbrush and you'll suddenly find out how difficult it is for them to be accurate. So get them to hold the head of the brush on the finger and go in. What did I find out over years is compliance. People actually being able to do that on a daily basis, day in, day out for their dogs, virtually zero. Okay. They might remember to do it once or twice a week. Is it truly effective? Hands down, I would say giving something that is something that they're more willing to do has much greater effect and is, you know, much better received than somebody actually spending 20 minutes trying to brush their dog's teeth. So personally, if it's a manual brush, I don't find that it's as effective as I would like it to be.

But you quite like the Emipet, the ultrasonic cleaners.

Yeah, well, I've seen again, I've seen some people showing the befores and afters, you know, and I mean that not literally, you know, 5 minutes later they're all clean, but the before and then, you know, after 2 months, this is where they'd got to with that dog with once a week brushing, you know, so not, you know, daily brushing, but once a week brushing. I always have that niggle in the back of my head. They say, look, you can't hear it, but it's ultrasonic. So I always question, you know, you can't hear a dog whistle. Is the dog just tolerating that high volume? I've heard horror stories of dogs which aren't compliant effectively having their mouths tied shut so that they can open, lift the lip and do the teeth, but the dog can't have a snap at them because it's got the band around its nose. So I always just go, it doesn't sit particularly well with me. I'm sure there are lots of groomers out there that can tell me if they're using this product how great it is. I think there are some dogs which are very compliant that do love it, and I think if all of the studies and the evidence that they, Emedog, have put out there are absolutely true, then, you know, it's a great possibility without requiring anesthetics for cleaning those dogs' teeth.

However, neither of us are particularly keen on brushing teeth if we can get carcasses and good chews and bones and these kind of things into our, into our dogs. The way I look at it is that if you've got a moderately compliant dog, you might be able to do the outside of the teeth, but to get most dogs to do the inside of the teeth, which is 50%, 40% of the teeth surface. Yeah, your teeth have got an outside, they've got a top, and they've got an inside. So if you only do the outside and the top, that's only 60% of the mouth. So it means that you're neglecting on a daily basis 40% of your mouth. And I think that's probably not going to lend itself to a clean oral environment. And I think Hands down, working on the biome and working on the food and working on the bones and the chews, that for me is the future. That really is the future. And also, as Michelle from the States, Michelle Barg Chardon, sorry, Michelle, she says she's got 15 dogs. She'd be spending all day long cleaning every dog's, and it would be like the Forth Bridge. She'd just have to go the next morning, start the other one, right the way through. So It's a no-go. Dogs have been cleaning their teeth pretty effectively, I think. There are papers that say that there are many wolves who have tartar in their teeth, but I think a wolf's environment and a, you know, a pet dog's environment are two different things. They don't have to go and, you know, pull down their prey with their face, as Brady would say.

One last bit about dental treats. Somebody asked earlier, you know, they don't feed raw. What about you know, other dental treats. There are some dental treats out there I would please say avoid, avoid, avoid. Packed with whey and cereal and sugars, they've got more calories than a Mars bar. Um, they are, um, you know, just full of things that will cause leaky gut and reactive guts. They often will cause diarrhea. Um, and I've had a number of allergic dogs which people have been feeding restricted protein diets, but they insist on giving their dog one of these as a treat because it's great for the teeth. And, you know, 4 months in, you're trying to work out why the dog has always continued to react when they've, you know, you've gone through a number of proteins trying to exclude them. And then we've realized it was purely down to the amount of cereals and other Let's find a word on it. Rubbish. Oh, thank you, you got me out of a hole there.

Yeah, and these are dental— it sounds a bit like dental sticks, these things that you're describing.

Does it? I didn't mention a word, but I think it sounds a bit like dental.

Sounds like dental sticks. Yes, it does sound a bit like that. And Star Russell is saying rice bones. Okay, nah, rice it just breaks down to glucose and it doesn't do you any good. Go for the real deal. If you don't want to feed bones, have bone in the food and give really big chunky chews. But bones, you know, get some ribs, get some beef ribs, get some lamb ribs, get some goat ribs, things like that, and get those into the dog. Really, really, really good. So, um, this is good. Any—

no, lumps and bumps. Somebody has mentioned we said we were going to talk about lumps in the mouth. There are some benign and some fairly aggressive lumps, and we wanted to deal with dental care today because it's sort of like the first step. We must then, once we've talked about how easy it is to look into dogs' mouths if you train them, etc., we're going to talk about lumps and bumps in the mouth because there are quite a number which can be fairly aggressive types of tumor, and there is no way you can tell by lifting the lip and just going, 'That is.' Okay. As Nick said last week, lots of thoughts about how to test them. We're going to dedicate a whole session to lumps and bumps in the mouth so that we can talk from epulis, which is sort of a benign fibrosis, all the way through to malignant melanomas, squamous cell carcinomas, all of that horrible stuff. That can affect our dogs and cats. So we will be dedicating a special section all to that over the coming weeks. So watch out.

When should we do that, Bren? Should we do that next week?

What have we got thinking about? Gotta think about what we've got on for the next couple of weeks. So I think we're on Q&A, aren't we?

No, Q&A will be 2 weeks, won't it? So 14th to 28th will be— oh, do we do it the third Thursday, Tuesday?

No, it's the last final Tuesday.

Okay, so that'll be 2 weeks.

I love it, like we're working this out with you guys.

Yeah, no, sorry, this is us, you know, this is our brains ticking over there. So let's have a look.

Yes, you can meet Luca with Canadent. Just, Leslie, just as Nick's processing in his brain, they work 2 different ways. And so yes, you can absolutely mix those 2 together. Okay.

Okay. So why don't we do lumps and bumps in the mouth next week? Will Brady be back for that? I think he will, won't he?

I don't know. He's sunning himself in the middle of Ireland somewhere, somehow. I'm not sure how.

Okay. Okay. Well, why don't we do that? Let's do lumps and bumps. Tumours, cancers, lumps, sialoceles, if you can spell it. You'll be doing well. How about that? We'll do all the lumps and bumps in the mouth, and that will be as an adjunct part of dental care and dental observation. Should we do that?

Yes, let's do that for all of those guys that are sort of feeling that we need to look at that. Michelle, we've talked about Cannadent and other seaweed supplements. There are some anti-inflammatory properties to it. There's stuff about interrupting this microbiome film in there. A lot of them talk about it's digested and effectively resecreted in the saliva to get the maximum effect. It's not just about being topical. One last thing I did mention about cats. Remember, if your cats have hyperthyroidism and maybe your vet's put them on a low iodine diet, you will be countering that by giving them a seaweed because that's got loads of iodine in there. So do make sure your vet is aware. And also, if they have hyperthyroidism, there is— if they have not had that controlled in another way, then giving them seaweed, again, you should be talking to your vet about how much of an effect that might have on their T4 levels.

Yeah.

Okay, great.

Okay, so there you go.

That's—

hasn't it I can't believe it. Seriously, it was, um, yes. And we're not just saying that, guys. Literally, we only just got started. It was half past, but it was good. Really, really good. Um, great to see everybody. This just, it just feels good on a Tuesday night. We have, uh, you know, it's good, good vibe, and we really, really appreciate your, your contribution and the company.

You know, just the fact that you're with us, just because you're there. Yeah, it's great. It's great.

It really is good.

And we're settling into it, being part of our loving community. You're helping each other out. That means so much to us as well. So great. Thank you so much.

Amazing. We'll see you next week for Lumps and Bumps in the Mouth. Yes. Okay.

Thank you. Don't forget, if you do want to help us out, do look at joining us on Patreon as well. Okay.

Patreon. Yes. And it's, uh, and it does seem that it's the, the consensus seems to be 9 inches is about right. Yeah, whether you're, whether you're really, really big and, and, you know, broad-shouldered or really, really skinny, it's about 9 inches, gentlemen.

I'm going, I'm gonna get— yeah, yeah, whatever, I'm gonna