RawSafe Tuesday night live: Oral lumps

Hi, don't forget to press record on your voice.

Oh, okay. Yes, yes, yes. And let's clap, Bren. Ready?

3, 2, 1. And at that point they say hello. They're going to say, what are they doing?

We're actually training to be Morris men and we're We're getting our clap organized soon. We're going to have sticks and we're going to have—

be careful, we're not getting— we've not got the clap. We're not getting a clap organized. It will—

we'll, we'll be, uh, jumping up and down with, uh, socks and things on. Um, here we go. Uh, Alison Evans is— I met Alison Evans at, uh, on Saturday, Bren. She came to the talk that I did at the Natural Pet Care conference, and she's a big Bernese fan. And so I said I'd say hello to her. It's great to see you there, Alison. Thank you very much. And Rach Mack has pipped you at the post once again, I'm afraid. Not wanting to rub it in, Alison. But listen, great to see you. Great to see you.

Good luck next time.

How's your week been, mate?

Oh, really interesting. A few, uh, interesting articles we're going to talk about before we crack on with oral lumps, uh, sort of coming up. Some interesting musings, um, uh, yeah, just, uh, really looking forward to some great science that, um, we're getting into, um, uh, organizing with a couple of companies. So, um, I'm looking forward to that coming up. It really gets your brain ticking over when you start to look at this digestibility assimilation versus energy release and what is actually the correct way of looking at these foods. And obviously, the more processed your food, the more you want energy release to be the measure of digestibility. So it's really interesting arguments that are out there already. So we're going to be looking in depth at that. So there's a few things out there that we want to, uh, to check out. So no, it's all good, all good.

Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? When we first started, remember Brady was, was saying, oh God, we're going to run out of stuff by, by week 8. But actually, the more we talk about, it's a bit like clearing a, a, a patch in the jungle. The bigger you make the area, i.e., the stuff that you've covered and the stuff that you, you're interested in, the bigger the the perimeter of, of that interface between what you know and what you don't know, which is fascinating, isn't it? It's just, you know, the more we talk about—

you've got to remember there's all that stuff that's growing in the patch you've cleared that you've got to go back and tend to. So it's like, you just— yeah, yeah, it's perpetual. It's marvelous.

I think it is marvelous. And, uh, Sally Tobin— I've just seen Sally Tobin, uh, is in the house, and she was there as well. So thank you very much for your and, you know, thank you for supporting us on Patreon, you guys. Just talking about Patreon, just— I'll just jump in. Thank you very much. We do this for love, but it just helps with the nuts and bolts. We've been trying to do some studies with analyzing kibble and stuff, but it's just getting bogged down there. Bear with it, we will get there. But your contributions, you know, whether it's £2, £5, or even a tenner, every month is massively helpful for us, and it allows us to pay Pete the podcast man and, you know, pay for little things here and there. So thank you very, very much for that. But what I was wanting to say was there are quite a lot of people who are wanting responses from us. There's 25 there, actually. Please don't think we are neglecting you, but we are— all we're doing is we're trying to prioritize great shows and great podcasts. So that's— there's only so much time to do it. So if you want us to come back to you on a clinical point, then probably the best is to email Bren or me. Or me. No, I'm getting there. I'm just giving you a little time. So I'm at nickthompson@holisticvet.co.uk and I do a lot of telemedicine these days, so maybe we can, we can have a chat. Bren, what's your email, just for the record?

Yeah, if they put it on holistic@towerwoodvets.co.uk, they'll get through to my team and they'll try and sort you out with a consultation as soon as possible.

Very nice, very nice. Okay, and so before we get into lumps and bumps, I think I'm going to just offer a little ray of sunshine. A lot of people are saying Michelle, uh, Michelle is here. That's great, marvelous. Um, what a lot of people talking about the sunshine. So yes, it's, it's very sunny. And here's— I've had a revelation, Bren. I've had an absolute revelation. I wish Brady was here to share it, but maybe he'll watch this later. I went to the Sustainable Food Trust, uh, conference. We spoke about it the other day, and my eyes are absolutely opened. I am— I feel a well of joy in my heart, and I don't say that lightly. I just feel, you know how when you're first in love and you just feel, oh my God, this is just divine, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's a little bit like that. Yeah, I won't say it's like that because Ellie will kill me, but no, she want to know who you met. Anyway, it's a dilution of that wonderful glowy sort of feel, because there is hope for this planet, and it comes in the form of regenerative agriculture. And as far as I can see, it's the only thing between us and complete and utter destruction pretty soon, in the next generation or two. You know, we are on a— we are on the edge of the cliff. We're not over the cliff yet, but I we've got very limited options and we need to start going, you know, reversing this decline. And regenerative agriculture is where it's at. And I've just discovered the most divine— I'm talking too much, but as somebody said there, I'm taking over from Conor's rants. But, but, and you can have a good rant in a minute. I've discovered this, an Australian farmer by a biodynamic farmer called Charlie Arnott. Charlie Arnott, he does a podcast, and in, in the last, uh, 5 days I've done about 14 1-hour episodes of this, and it's just a massive, massive revelation. And the reason that the Australians are so good at this is because they're, they're trying to farm in extreme conditions. If it, if If it's not a drought, you've got forest fires beyond belief. You've got, you know, potentially very devastated land to start with. So they really, really know what they're talking about in extreme farming. So they are— I'm learning so many things, and these guys are just brilliant and inspiring. So even if you're not really into farming, But you are into good food and, you know, saving the planet, which I think is probably in everybody's interest. Call me old-fashioned. It's just absolutely glorious. And the other thing I must do, because Pete will kill me, is put my thingies in. Oops, sorry, Pete. Yeah, sorry, sorry, Pete.

I mean, there was something really interesting we were talking about just before we came on with regards to that regenerative farming. And you were saying you were having a conversation with one of the delegates there about the amount of CO2 and methane. I think it was methane actually that termites were giving off. And we sort of like had that question then, you know, we're sort of like, you know, there's a whole food industry that say, oh my God, cows are bad. You know, they create methane. Which is debatable because there's a whole carbon offset and everything else that goes on. But let's go back for a moment. So it's driving this production of insect protein for the food industry, whether that's for our own meat or whether it's for, you know, as replacement, or whether it's for pet food as replacement protein. And yet we're thinking, hold on a moment, what if we suddenly discover that all of those black soldier fly production actually produces 10 times more methane than producing beef. Yeah. Where are we all going to be at that point? You know, who's going to be shooting who for going down that route? So that's another question.

Yeah.

Any of you guys out there know the answer? Is it just termites that produce more methane or is it all insect generation of protein, then let us know. You can put a comment up here. If you're out there and you're a keyboard warrior and you can search super quick, let's see if we get the answer by the end of the show.

Yeah, fabulous. This is great. Just sharing this information is so, so important. And what was going to— somebody said, who is the farmer? He's— this is he. He's called Charlie Arnott.

That's one. We can see that.

Is that good? Yeah, yeah, is that the right way around? Yes, it is. Yeah, okay, well, there you go. So that's that, Charlie Arnott, and he's just such an intelligent, sensitive, and incisive interviewer. He's just a joy to listen to. So fabulous. What else was Andy— oh gosh, here we go. I'm just a tiny 30-second rant. I met one of the leading regenerative agriculture farmers who's based down at Crediton in Devon. Lovely Devon. And he's called Andy Gray, and he— here's the kicker— he makes raw dog food, uh, now from his regeneratively raised cattle on a regenerative farm. So the soil, soil thickness, the soil biodiversity is increasing, increasing, increasing. I— he's, he's very much one of the good guys, and he's producing raw dog food, and it's called The Farmer's Dog, The Farmer's Dog, um, down in Crediton. So check him out if that's a big thing for you. Uh, I think it is. One lovely phrase— sorry, I'm just— here you go, I'm kind of feeling a bit in love here. Um, uh, the phrase that really caught my ear was Cheap food will cost the Earth.

Yes, yes, that's so true on so many levels, isn't it?

Cheap food is costing the Earth. No, will cost the Earth. Yes, so that kind of hits the nail on the head. That kind of summarizes the whole thing. So wonderful, wonderful. There's so much great stuff to talk about.

So yeah, check out And some of you guys, you know, may have come across this article that's out there on Salmonella and E. coli, which is antimicrobial resistance in food. There are some nuggets of information in there. So they found fecal transmission was increased in raw-fed dogs. And so looking into that, so just a cursory glance, and I'm going to have a bit more research into this. So 4%, that's yes, just 4% of dogs fed raw of no particular prescription. So we might find that some of those are supermarket fed, some of those are, you know, from varying degrees of meats that are being selected for them, not necessarily the top of the range stuff. There may be treats coming into that, there may be some scavenging of wildlife, but only 4% were positive. Now they class that as significantly more than the high-processed food diets, but it's still 4%. In that, there's a couple of caveats that I'll just add before Nick's got a comment.

No, no, no, no, I'm agreeing. I'm bigging you up.

Salmonella, we have a question as to whether they were just because they just named salmonella, it wasn't specific down to pathogenic salmonellas or not. So there are salmonella everywhere. And there's only a few species, I think in the 20s or something like that, 25, something like that, that are pathogenic. And there are hundreds that are non-pathogenic forms. Same with E. coli. And so there's a bit of a debate as to how they're going to manage if they're selecting out cultures and then saying these are present, doesn't necessarily mean they're transmissible amongst the wealth of other bacteria that are going to be in the fecal matter. And there's still a question as to whether there's going to be oral transmission just because there's these bacteria in the feces. So that whole thing of licking your face that's going to suddenly kill your children, I think, is still up for debate. And yet we still see still see so many people proposing that that is a real risk when actually in real life we're not seeing that come to fruition. So bear with us. We're going to sort of try and pick that one apart for you guys in more detail. But that's a brief outline. If anybody comes at you with this new article and it's, you know, the death knell for raw food feeding, I think far from it. We are still feeling great about raw food feeding, that the health benefits that are there, it is the way forwards if you're going to be feeding for health. So let's have a look at that. But without further ado, I think, you know, there's so many people asking about oral lumps, the different types and what's going on. I think it is really important that we probably go through this in a bit more detail so that people have an understanding Nick and myself might have slightly different approaches here. I guess there's some agreement, there'll always be some difference of opinion. That's absolutely fine. That's, you know, put 10 vets in a room, you'll come out with 12 opinions. So I think, you know, it's good to have a different point of view sometimes. So yeah, yeah. Can we start with benign growths? We talked in the very first, you know, 2 weeks ago about the difference between benign and more malignant tumors. So if you're not sure about that terminology, please flip back to 2 weeks ago and have a look at that video. Same things apply for all tumors. Most common tumor that you've seen in the mouth? I know you're not really in first opinion practice anymore, but can you remember that, Nick?

I can do better than that. I've got a nice little article that I've posted on Patreon, and it says that oral tumors are around 6% of all canine tumors, which I think is really quite, quite significant. Therefore, I think it pays to every month or so have a little gander in your dog's mouth, especially if they're over middle age, so kind of 6, 7, 8 years old. I just have a little squint in there if you can. Without getting bitten, of course. And my friend here, I can't see who wrote it, but it's quite a nice article. It says that melanoma, squamous cell carcinoma, sarcomas, and ameloblastomas are the most common. But basically, you don't really want a lump in your mouth if you can help it. And I think it's really important to get it checked as soon as you can. Now, Brent, you were saying about— oh, sorry.

Yeah, that's really interesting. So you've named those some serious tumors there, you know, some really serious tumors. Okay. And they're malignant tumors. But you've not mentioned epulis, which I would consider the most common tumorous growth in the mouth. Yet they are benign. Okay.

Yes, they are. And so I think we need to do that first because that will be the most common lump that you find in your mouth and you will be terrified until you go to the vet and they say, no, it looks like it's just epulis. So what is epulis, Bren?

So epulis is a proliferation of the fibrous tissue around the ligamentous structure of the tooth and it creates quite a hard almost warty-like growth along the dental margin between the gum and the tooth. Boxers particularly are prone to this, although other breeds do get it definitely. I mean, I have seen severe cases, and some of the conventional approach to those severe cases was literally to do gingival resections and advancement procedures in severe cases. I would definitely say from a complementary point of view, if you don't address some of the underlying reasons why they're forming that in the first place, it will come back. Okay. Without any shadow of a doubt. Uh, and, uh, it is one of those things that you've got to be very careful if you're selecting that way of, uh, removing these growths. I think changing diet, giving some of the remedies, things like Thuja, can be helpful. Really trying to improve oral health as much as possible, which again, if you want to know more, look back to last week, we talked about that in general terms. Anything that's going to cause chronic inflammation of that gingival margin that's going to just help those cells to go wrong and start to, you know, not die off and form new cells and effectively proliferate.

Okay, this is good stuff. I'll tell you what, I'm just going to jump in there because I've got a client who, on her own bat, rubbed CBD onto epulis in her dog. You know, we talked about changing the diet and improving the diet and making sure they've got something to chew and improving dental health, because I think that's what provokes it in the first place. But she, she was doing everything she could, but she added in, uh, she said, I'm going to rub CBD onto the epulis probably twice a day. And you know what? It disappeared. So I think that's really, really interesting. So I would suggest to everybody who's coming along on this journey with us, um, if they have a diagnosed epulis and it's not too bad and they don't— that they're not staring down the barrel of surgery, they might want to get some good quality CBD and give it a go. It's not going to cost you much, and it would be really interesting if we could just do a survey to see whether we get anything coming back from everybody. And also, I'm going to be using it on more and more dogs as well. What are your thoughts there, Brendon?

Yeah, I think, you know, definitely this is one of those cases where Although I see it as the most common tumour, it is one of those cases. It is impossible to distinguish between epulis, sometimes melanoma, squamous cell carcinoma, you know, ameloblastomas in just looking at them. And I would absolutely say, if not taking a fine needle aspirate, you know, taking a small sample of these, because it is really easy to take samples of oral tumours. In these circumstances, it is worth doing even if you've got a small one. I mean, I've done everything, and there was some lovely lady who posted on the advert for tonight, you know, about the huge oral tumor and a resection of the jaw that they had to have done for their beloved pet, and you know how that pet was coping. She even posted a video of it still eating raw and everything else, but without a lower jaw. I would hope that we would never get to that point. I mean, one of the pictures on those was a patient of mine that we did do a jaw resection, but we managed to remove it with a V incision of the lower mandible, leaving the rest intact. So made a full recovery, managed to get it early. And, you know, it's about taking teeth either side and enough of the root of that to make sure it's not spreading. But it is, you know, some people will be horrified by the thought that there's— I've seen Dobermans with hemangiosarcomas of the jaw, and I've done maxillectomies and mandibulectomies, and people are horrified by the thought. But actually, do you know what, once you've reconstructed those, sometimes you barely see that they've had a jaw resection until you look at them closely. And I would, you know, definitely say don't get put off if your vet is saying that this is a serious tumor, we need to take some of the jaw bone to remove this. You know, they do cope really well. And, you know, there are limits in it, you know, extremes. And, you know, I'm not going to go into the absolutes of what you should and shouldn't do, but I think discuss it carefully, you know, try and find some people that have maybe experienced that and see what their dogs had looked like afterwards. Certainly, you know, contact a vet and try and get some information from them that has done these procedures. And, you know, don't get put off, but, you know, don't look at it as an absolute, oh my God, that's it. You know, if they've got a melanoma, which is quite malignant, there are other things. And I would definitely say we can then back those cases up with good nutrition, you know, getting ketogenesis going, you know, cutting down, starving out those more malignant tumors. Squamous cell carcinomas are probably the ones that I really hate because they tend to have already spread to other areas of the mouth by the time the owner even sees, you know, an area that's going on. And so they they are something that's severe, especially around the tonsillar area. But we can still slow them down, and that's the point, and still give you quality of lifetime with those dogs in those circumstances. So, so should we just backtrack a little bit? I've talked about, you know, trying to make sure you diagnose the, the epulis before you just go ahead and rub on CBD and hope that's the end of it. I think, you know, a couple of people have said colloidal silver, you know, there's Other things, yeah, this comes back to just trying to improve the oral microbiome. So Luka may even help, you know, in those circumstances. As Nick said right very early on, please, you know, this is the time to act before they've got a growth or any oral pain to actually, even if they're snappy dogs, try and desensitize them to having their muzzles and mouths looked at. This isn't about stretching their mouths open. If you can just lift the lip and look along the outside margins, that's probably 75% better than most dogs out there can get to, and we can do the rest. So I would really love if you do nothing else after this, is just to get your dogs desensitized to having their lips lifted and their mouths looked at. Okay, so other things on there. So have you had some experience in treating some of the more sinister masses.

Yeah, I mean, and I would just reinforce the idea, if you go to the vet with a dog with a lump in its mouth somewhere and they say we're going to have to take away some of the mandible, for example, on the bottom here, you're going to think, oh my God, well, how on earth will the dog survive? They do remarkably well. They really do. You will be horrified initially, but bear with it and do investigate. Okay, don't let that initial horror do it. They do it in people all the time, but dogs, they tolerate it incredibly well. I've seen dogs do just famously, and you can't even see it because especially if they've got, you know, a bit of lip, you can't even see it, and they just do great.

Yeah, in fact, do you know what, guys, I'm going to put a little post up and I would say if If any of you, like Shelley here, have had a dog that has had a little bit of their jaw removed for tumor reasons, if you could post those on there, that would be wonderful, just so that people can see, you know, what they end up like, that then they're not horrendous, you know, at all. And I think that would be really, really great for for your other colleagues on this forum to see and for you to direct people to, so they can be reassured that it's not a horrendous thing if they need to have that done.

Good. That sounds really, really good. Okay, so let's have a look. How do you diagnose oral tumors in dogs? So the first thing is to get They'll probably have to be sedated for this, but to get a fine needle aspirate in, there are certain technicalities of some tumours you can find by doing that and some you can't. But if they do that but they can't identify the tumour, it doesn't mean there's no tumour there, but you can go further and go with a biopsy, which is where you take a a slice, or you can even, you know, superficially remove or remove as much as you can of the tumour and get that to a lab so that they can put it under a microscope. And if they do take it off, then at the lab they may even have to go to immunohistochemistry, which is fancy staining using antibodies, in order to get a definitive diagnosis, especially of an oral melanoma, which can be tricky to diagnose. So if you— so that would be it, really. So go with the fine needle aspirate initially, or if it looks like that's not going to be sufficient, then go straight for the biopsy and get the diagnosis. Because by diagnosing what it is, you're going to know whether it's locally invasive and it's not going to touch the body, or it's locally invasive and it's going to metastasize to the rest of the body, or whether it's going to be locally invasive and that's it. Okay, so you would— you need to differentiate those things so you know what's what. There are some tumors in the mouth, by the time you find them, they're in your lungs. So I think staging is— and getting a really firm diagnosis is a good idea. It's not fun to find out that the dog has got cancer, but I think for your mental health, to know that it's X, Y, or Z tumor and you have a better idea of what to expect, I think that there is value, real value in that.

Um, and so what about Sorry, I would definitely say, you know, look, you know, them checking lymph nodes, them checking chest X-ray, you know, X-rays, dental X-rays are so much better these days. You know, I definitely say that that has a bearing because you can see bone erosion around the mass, and that gives you an idea of local invasion. The question about, you know, if we're poking and prodding these masses, are they likely to cause problem. There are some, you know, if they're obviously roughened and friable, I will just do an impression smear from those and can often find out what sort of cells they are within those. I would definitely say there are options with some of them to actually take a superficial biopsy. And if it's, you know, marking whereabouts on the jaw that is, and if we then effectively can say, no, that's fairly malignant. We need to go back in and remove a tooth either side and take a section out. That's then doable from looking at those results. They do take time. If you submit them with bone, then that can take a month to get a diagnosis. So I would always say if your vet is taking those masses out, to ask them to take a section of it off to have histology of the soft tissue done separately, and then to look at margins on the bone separately, which we'll come back later. Because in that month, you may want to be checking lymph nodes, taking fine needle aspirates of them. You may want to be doing survey radiographs to look at lymph nodes and lungs. So, yeah, think about that. There are a number of Other therapies that are coming out, so some of the rarer ones. I have had some mast cell tumors in the mouth, and they can be differentials. And again, you know, knowing what's going on there will allow you to look at those in a different light. And if you're getting repeat ones, there are now injections that you can use that will actually kill off those tumour cells. So, they activate the immune system against them. And although it leaves an area that needs to be healed in, it seems to be much better than trying to resect a mast cell tumour in many circumstances. So, I would just say, you know, it is possible to look at all of these therapies that are becoming available. Now.

So yeah, I've got a list here: surgery, radiation therapy, and what they call systemic therapy, which is not calling chemotherapy chemotherapy, basically. So those would be the main conventional ones. But I'd love to get on to what are our alternative— you know, we're both alternative vets— what are our What are our therapeutics? Where does your brain go with therapeutics? What's your top treatment? And then I'll chuck one in and then—

So I will generally, as a rule of thumb, probably go to Turkey Tail, so Mycoplex Coriolis. I will go high dose until resolution. Although they say 60 days and then reduce, I will go high dose until resolution. If they do resolve, I'll go high antioxidants. So PET Plus I find is a useful option there. And then I'll be looking down to the type of growth. So I love a method, a Ramakrishnan method of treatment of cancers, which looks at a repetitive remedy treatment, probably with Carcinosin and then another tumor-dependent remedy. So I think Nick's going to pull the book just so that he can show you the cancer treatment, but definitely stimulating locally the body's reaction to those tumors Even for squamous cell carcinoma, I've had some great responses to Aurum muriaticum and Aurum muriaticum naturum just for the local remedy with Carcinosin alternating on a plussing basis. So there are things that can be done along with those herbal supports that can buy really useful time. And just going back to, you know, people say, well, that's off-label. All chemotherapeutic agents in dogs are off-label. Okay, so if a chemo, you know, an oncologist is coming to you and saying, I will use some chlorambucil, well, has that been tested in oral tumors? No, but, you know, on the basis of it will reduce angiogenesis and, you know, it's going to keep them stoked You know, the same with even prednisolone in those circumstances is off-label. And I would just say, think about quality of life. You know, the impact of some fairly notable chemotherapeutic agents in dogs and what will impact their quality of life. Similarly, radiotherapy, because it's not a drug, they won't class it as off-label, But there are impacts of having those radiation burns. I've treated dogs that have had melanomas that have spread into the submandibular lymph nodes, and they've ended up with radiation burns down the side of the face and everything else. It's not without side effects. Ask that question. If you go back to the posting I made on the review of cancer treatments and, you know, what is a step too far and why are we grasping for treating the small percentages? You know, they even stated for tumor cases, I think that was particularly with breast cancer, like 4% of cases actually respond to chemotherapy in that particular survey. And actually, the majority were resolved by surgery alone. And it was just that 4% are responsive to chemotherapy. And what they ended up doing is people literally go, do you know what, just in case I fall into that 4%, I'm going to grasp chemotherapy with both hands and will put themselves through hell. Well, I've just got a question whether it's fair to our dogs to put them through hell for that small percentage chance that we're going to actually resolve them with that chemotherapy. But that's, you know, a personal opinion. That's, you know, where I'm at with seeing all of these cases that tend to come to me because they can't cope with the side effects of the treatment of cancer. And the ones that come with, yeah, primary cancers.

So this is it. I think you need to talk very carefully with your, your vet, your oncologist, as to what it's going to involve. Because if it's a really harsh therapeutic over even a short or long period, but it's only going to buy you a short period of time, you've got to be thinking, are we buying time but kind of not giving them quality during that time? Okay, so it's all about, for me, the phrase healthspan is really important, not lifespan per se. I would definitely want that for myself. There's no point in living till you're 120 if you're miserable for the last 40, you know. So Just bear that. I think it's really clear communication is very, very important here. Make sure, you know, you know, go into the vet, go into the oncologist with a list and tick them off. You know, if you need more time, rebook, get some more time, whatever it might be, or book a telephone appointment as a follow-up to say, yeah, thank you very much for seeing us last week, we've had these thoughts. Be very informed. And find clinicians who are good communicators when talking about this stuff. Some of the other things that— so Bren has mentioned the Turkey Tail, the Coriolus. I use Coriolus Plus, which is a mix of 5 mushrooms. I will also look at the Mushrooms for Pets one. That is the Mushrooms for Pets, yes. Yes, Korea.

Are you getting that supply direct? Because there is some, a couple of people on their website that are suppliers within the UK. And interestingly, I was trying to direct people to be able to buying that online, and they had an issue purchasing that particular one from the online supplier. So if you've got issues, Nick obviously knows how to get hold of it. He's rifling through his cupboards right now.

I am. Yeah, so let's just give you an idea of what this is. We've got 5 minutes, so we'll just gather our thoughts, but I'm going to come off that paper and come back to you, Brent, there. And here we go. This is the stuff that we use.

Yeah.

Is that—

yeah, absolutely. That's a really great backup that I've come across. Are you directing to people online as well to purchase that, or are you just, um, you get a supply yourself?

Whichever. I will supply it if anybody needs it. Then this is a really nice product, and it's about as non-risky as— it's about as gentle and What am I trying to say? The side effects, almost zero. I don't think— can't remember the last time I saw any side effects whatsoever. As far as CBD is concerned, this is the one that we use. It's a human product, but we can prescribe it if we have communication with your vet, if they okay that. This is Global Greens And what they do is they take the CBD and they emulsify it with lecithin in order to really increase the bioavailability. Because, because CBD, you can increase it by mucking about with the way it's absorbed in the gut. And Brent, a few months ago you were talking about CBD that it's knocked out in the liver, and therefore it's important to give it away from food and to allow really good buccal mucosal absorption in the mouth. Do you want to just tell us about that again?

So you will get a couple. So Cannadol V is another one that's effectively pharmaceutically graded, so you know that bottle 1 is going to be the same as the batch 3 months down the line, it's going to have exactly the same milligrams. So you're not having to adjust dose dependent on the dog's, you know, which batch you're using. But what I would say with those, they're often created more of a paste. If you put them into the buccal mucosa, so you literally lift the cheek back and paste them in, or just below, try and give them about 10 to 15 minutes away from water or food so that it stays there for longer. And if you've tried it yourself, it might feel a little bit weird having that stuff there, but it's absorbed so much better through that mucosal membrane that actually circulates. So when we're talking about the masses and what's going on with the health and trying to get local activity, it's right there. But also the liver takes out about 90% of the product. So if you just put it in food, then pretty much 90% of that activity is taken out by the liver before it even sees the rest of the system. So you're, you know, diluting down what you're giving as a product. So I would definitely say, please think about, even if it doesn't say for mucosal application, think about popping it in there, leaving it, keeping them away from water and food for 10 to 15 minutes, and then review the effects. If your dog is suddenly getting super sleepy when you give it that way, okay, then it may well be you just need to reduce that dose because you'll be giving it in a much more effective way. The other caveats, please, and your vet should go through this with you. If your dog is on gabapentin as a pain relief, for any reason, maybe because this tumor is causing pain within bone or something along those lines, then please be careful about using CBD at the same time as gabapentin. It uses the same pathways of stimulation, and there are some cross-reactivities. You may get undue sedation with that combination.

Which is easily reversed. You just need to just play with your dosing, you know, so you get maximum benefit from, from both of those interventions. Wonderful. I, I am going to re-emphasize the idea of homeopathy. I think homeopathy in the oral tissue, um, just as with, with hormones— homeopathic's fabulous with hormones, Cushing's and, and what have you, but really very much consider. So if your vet turns around and says, um, you've got tumor X and it's in the mouth and there's not a lot we can do and chemo is no good, even if you think it's just too, too much to think about— the— I know, not even too much to think about. If even if you think, I don't like the idea of homeopathy, it is super safe, it is very effective. When it's effective, it can be miraculous. And dogs tolerate it very, very well. And if it was a dog of mine, I would definitely— for any lumps in the mouth, I'm not saying, you know, homeopathy will cure anything, but it just promotes the health, the immune system, and energizes DNA transcription, etc., etc., etc. This is how they think it works. Nobody really knows. But don't discard the idea. Do have a think about that idea. I think it's definitely where Bren and I would go if we had beloved dogs who had lumps anywhere really, but especially in the mouth. So there you go, just one thought.

Somebody had just talked about, do we look at needing to cook the mushrooms and things like that. Certainly if you're giving fresh, they are better if you make them into a tea or you heat process them. For some reason, they release the materials within them as almost like a prebiotic mix and some other things and the chemical activities more if they do that. The mushrooms for pets have already been processed, so they're at the maximum bioavailability. So you don't need to sprinkle those and heat them up or anything like that. So just remember that that's already been produced in that way, as has the CorePet, which is the Mycoplex Coriolus that's, that's done, that's prepared so that they know the bioavailability and the activity of them. But you're right, if you're going out there and getting fresh mushroom type turkey tail and things like that, you will need to put them into a tea probably to get maximum effect. Okay.

Yeah, good stuff. Patricia Robinson says, which homeopathic remedies do you suggest for mouth tumors? Well, that depends on the mouth tumor, I'm afraid, Patricia, and it depends on the dog as well. Yeah, you can have the same, you can have a melanoma in, in, in, in identical twin dogs, and they would have completely different remedies. That is a possibility. So have a look at the Ramakrishnan, spelt as it sounds, Ramakrishnan. Dr. Ramakrishnan, a genius Indian physician who's really revolutionized.

And even though they're human oral tumors, he does give a couple of remedy options in there. I've named a couple earlier on whilst Nick was searching out to see if he'd got the book on hand. And I've just had a look around to see if I've got mine to hand, but I haven't got it with me. It's downstairs.

I've got mine downstairs, but you can look him up. He's got a website.

Yeah. Yes.

You don't— nobody needs books these days really, because you can— most of this information is online, but sometimes it's just nice to have a book. Good. Any kind of closing thoughts, Bren, do you think? I'm going to shoot fairly soon.

Yeah, quality of life. Always, always, always, whatever's going on. Yeah, discuss quality of life. You know, if you're, if you're under an oncologist and you've gone to the most highfalutin referral practice, remember to come back to your primary vet. And, you know, they should help keep you grounded when you— because they know your relationship. You know, I hope they know your relationship with your dog. And, you know, if you're not sure about what we're talking about with quality of life, look at our quality of life and euthanasia discussion last year. There's a video there you can come across. We go into that in a bit more detail. But think quality of life always. And monitoring, you know, don't just think, oh, I've got the diagnosis, I'm just— that's it until I call it a day. You know, there's lots of support and monitoring that can be done by the nurses in your local practice. You don't need to just be seeing the vets, you know, there's a great support team there. Talk to them, engage with them, keep up that, and actually enjoy the moments that you have left. You may have been given a serious diagnosis, but at least if you know that you've got to now make the most of the time that you've got left, you've got that opportunity, grasp it with both hands.

Brilliant. I think that's really, really great advice. Rebecca says, can you feed cooked mushrooms regularly? Yeah, I think sauté with a bit of butter releases a lot of goodness for me. Yeah, it works for me, that's for sure. I always have mine with a bit of garlic as well, and which you can do for the dogs if you don't go crazy with the garlic. What was I going to say? I can't remember. Mushrooms, very good source of many minerals. So don't forget the mushrooms of this world. And my final word is this podcast, as well as my whole regenerative journey, has made me put me into a very, very wonderful state. And this is it. It's called The Vert Regenerative Journey by Charlie Arnott. You know, I ridiculously thought that all Australians were rugby-playing, beer-swilling rednecks. All right, I did. I did. I did. I've got cousins, and I hope they're not watching this, okay, who are wonderful, beautiful people. But I just thought, you know, generally speaking, especially the farmers, but you know what, they are the leading edge edge. These guys are the leading edge of regenerative agriculture, and I take my hat off. I was totally wrong about the Aussies, and I'm just thinking, how can I get out to Australia just to go and talk to these guys and see what they're doing with, with their land? Because it's— they are changing the world, these guys, and it's so exciting. So there you go. Um, I think we're good now. Next week, I think it's—

sorry, Yeah, I was just going to say, if you like what we talk about and you want to support us, do visit the Patreon page. There's more on there. Next week, Nick, we were talking about what we want to discuss. I think we're into— is that the final week? That's Q&A next week, isn't it?

Yeah, it's Q&A.

There's Patreon. We'll put a post up so that you guys can put in some more questions. There's still a bit of a hangover from the last couple of months, so we're going to have a look at those as well.

More questions than answers. Yeah.

We never get through all of our questions.

We never do, do we?

I blame that ranter that's on absence at the moment, wherever he is. Is he in the depths of Ireland or has he escaped that green and verdant land?

He's probably in his budgies right now, plodging, plodging himself. I know, don't mention. I bet he is. He's plodging away in the, in the sea right now as we speak. Yeah, but good luck.

He's got a mankini to cover his Montgomery glands anyway, just like—

that's a painful thought. Um, absolutely, listen, absolutely wonderful. We've got Q&A next week. Really looking forward to it. Brady will be back. Sorry about that, but you know, we can't keep him away. And yeah, Brent, thanks a lot for that. That was just a cracker. Really enjoyed that.

Great. Good to see you all and look forward