RPM Facebook Live: The Forever Dog

I've been dreaming about this for the last week, you know. I've been—

I've been—

questions are popping into my mind at 3 in the morning.

It's a fact.

Yeah, that's what happens when you read a book at 3 in the morning.

Yeah, I took the whole day off today to go back through the book, and I'm taking my notes again, and I'm adding on bits and a few rabbit holes where I had today. So, uh, my heart's beating. I can't wait to get at it. But listen, before we start, before we bring in the lads, um, uh, Bren, you wanted to— who, who, what's the— who's sponsoring the show tonight?

Yeah, no, absolutely. Thanks first to Bella and Duke. They've kindly sponsored tonight's show. So for all of you guys, if you— they've also said please, you know, do take some time just to use the PRM code if you want to try their food. We've got a clickable link if you look on the scroll notes, so you can just follow through, click on that, and that'll take you through, or you can go to Bella and Duke Please have a look at them. Say thank you for viewing this video. But without more ado, I think the other thing is for you, Conor, to—

yeah, again, Patreon. Again, guys, as we do every week, you'll find us on patreon.com/rawpetmedics. It's a totally free-to-view show. You know, we do this because we love it. But if you guys have, you know, the price of a cup of coffee each month, that's great. If you don't, the show, as always, is free to view. You can see the lives back through Facebook. But that really helps us get things going because the likes of Karen and Roddy, they're extremely expensive guests and they cost a ferocious amount of money, particularly Karen. So, um, to get that cash together, we had to do a lot of— pull a lot of strings. Um, I'm joking.

It was, it was, it was the time to read their book 4 times.

They did give me a free book though, which was lovely for the £25. That was very nice. I'm only joking. Uh, but without any further ado, could we just bring in the, the main events here, Karen and Rodney. Everybody, hello!

Ah, there they are, guys. We do apologize if there's any stuttering at all during this video. It's this transatlantic link, um, and we're just about using all the broadband width for all of those viewing around the world. Um, you know, it's great to see you guys. Thanks for coming.

Yeah, Dr. Karen Becker and Rodney Hebbitt. As if it needs any introduction. Do you guys still get excited by these things? Do you still get a little bit nervous coming onto a live show like I do? Oh, this—

for me, for me, this is like a blessing in disguise. I even like was like trolling your comment section, like, to be with all of this testosterone, hanging out with all of these dudes. I, I like— this is a 95% female industry, so it's always with wonderful females. This is my first time to talk with dudes.

I'm so excited.

Yeah, well, this is also excellent for me, so this is like a win-win. This is the Unleash All podcast. Yes. And I don't get nervous anymore. I get excited because every conversation brings something new and exciting and different, and you don't really know how it's going to unfold. And that's the exciting piece. So I love this, and thanks for having us.

Let's go.

Yeah, and thank you guys for cross-posting us to, um, you know, Planet Paws. Um, you know, great, thank you, and welcome to that audience too.

Um, for those that don't know us, actually, uh, I'm Dr. Conor Brady from dogsfirst.ie. You're going to check out my stuff there. Down below me is—

I'm Brendan Clarke. I'm a part of Towerwood Vets and also the RFVS, which is nicely mentioned in a certain book. And also they don't even remember the reference. And, and to this side is—

my name is Nick Thompson and I am holisticvet.co.uk and I was the founding father of the Raw Feeding Veterinary Society.

You're the godfather.

Introduce yourselves. You don't need really any introduction because you're raw food, fresh food royalty, but just for the record, I am Karen Becker, a fresh feeding veterinarian, happy to be here.

And I am currently in Canada with Canada's sweetheart, as he calls himself, the self-proclaimed Canadian Otherwise known as Sir Rodders or the Count, is that right?

Yes, Count Rodney also works up here in Canada as well. I go by either, so feel free to call me whatever you want.

Lovely. The Wizards of Raw. Behind you, you can see a poster there for the book you guys are bringing out soon, The Forever Dog. You've kindly sent us advance copies of that, and we have been tucked into it for the last few— for the last month. And it's just been highly, highly enjoyable. So we are having you guys on here as a dual event, really a two-parter. The first part, we want to talk a bit about what's going on today, a bit about you, what's going on today, maybe a little bit about the future, and we'll get to the Forever Dog, the actual nitty-gritty of it, certainly in our second show as well, because anybody that watches is well used to how we like to go through bits and pieces. We love the rabbit holes. But could I just start it off, guys? I am starting with, let's say, Karen. At the start of the book, you know, you're talking a little bit about yourself and, uh, the way your folks kind of nourished the way you got into animals, similar to me. And then you went to the animal shelters. Is it your parents that instilled the, and the love, this, this, this way of life that you're living today?

Yes, I would say so, because my parents did an amazing job of fostering empathy in me. I just did some genetic testing 3 years ago and learned that I was also— I have dual empathy genes. So I'm a homozygous dominant empath, which also plays into my desire to want to save everything, like butterflies and worms and one-legged frogs that I find. So that happened at a very young age where I would find things and have this overwhelming desire to save them. But the cool thing was I was partnered with parents that allowed that to happen. So as I found wild animals and became overwhelmed with the sense needing to save them, it was a logical step for me to first become a wildlife rehabilitator, which I did when I was 14, and then I became a federally licensed wildlife rehabilitator. And in fixing all of these wild animals, I was constantly going to the veterinarian. And so it was not, you know, I think I was probably 16 when I realized I need to become the vet because I can't keep going to the veterinarian. I'm finding animals at 2 or 3 in the morning, and then I had to wait until the veterinarian opened, and I just needed to become a vet. So I became— oh, uh, Yeah, so I became a vet and still doing wildlife, but actually just enjoying caring for everything I find because it's just the nature of who I am.

That's amazing. It's such a drive for you to say, well, this would be so much easier if I was just a vet. It'd be so much easier if I just studied to get into vet college, did a 5-year degree, all the hassle that goes with it. That's obviously the easier solution than going to see the vet every day. That's a, that's a serious bit of drive you have.

It has been— it has proven to be a very good choice for me because I do have this innate desire to want to fix things. But I think even more than that, I think the piece, Connor, that my parents instilled in me was the proactive piece. I have really healthy proactive parents with a lot of logical common sense. So my parents question all the time was, you know, why did that happen? If you have a headache, why do you have a headache? Is your C1 twisted? Did you eat something toxic? Are you dehydrated? Like, my parents ask really good questions. So I grew up critically thinking about why does the body break. And that has been a real gift for sure.

Yeah, that's quality. That's called— that's— I mean, what a useful resource that is to ask questions properly. And Rodney, what about you? I mean, everybody's read your Wikipedia page. How did you get into this, Rodney? What was the start for you? What was the, you know, what was the flip over from your past life to being—

well, unfortunately, I didn't get my genes tested, so I, I don't think I had all of that awesomeness inside my genes. I'm sure my genes I'm sure my jeans would not be spectacular.

I don't know if anyone wants to look at Rodney's jeans.

I recommend no one ever look at my jeans, ever, ever, ever. Yeah, I know. I, you know what, uh, but so very quickly, just my story is just an easy one. I'm your, uh, quintessential second-generation, uh, Mediterranean. My, my parent, Lebanese guy from— my parents came from Lebanon here to Canada. They immigrated in the '70s. It's very difficult to convince Mediterranean parents to have a pet in your home. So I was not blessed with that awesome experience that all of you have had until I was in my 30s. No way. I swear to God. So I got to experience like the love of a pet in my 30s. And man, like if I go back in a time machine, I probably would have moved out when I was like 5 and then just been able to get my pets on my own because how incredible that experience is. And so of course I have a fascination with science and a lot of citizen science, and I've been able to spend the last couple years, of course, highlighting science to my fellow pet parents. So that's my bio in 10.

That's it. And what a job you've done on that. Like, I mean, I'm going to come back to it anyway. Exactly finishing where you just started there, where you ended, Rodney, is exactly the point I want to drill into later. But for the moment, then I'm just going to pass you on to Bren, hand you over to Bren for a second.

Yeah, so I was really interested in sort of taking you from that, you know, where do you feel, what have been your big wins, your big achievements over this last 10 years? I mean, you've done amazing stuff online. We've probably all seen loads of the videos and the sort of, you know, starting out and building and building. So what do you feel have been the big wins for you guys?

Hmm, I think for me, because I'm constantly learning, I am taking some type of course or class all the time. I just can't get enough. And for me, my biggest motivator are the patients that I can't cure. Of course, we can't cure everything. We try, but we fail. The animals that I can't fix, I'm obsessed with trying to determine why. So I'm always learning something, but I also, I have this inquisitive brain that, thanks to my parents, I want to ask a lot of questions like, why is that? Or how did we end up here? So I think my big wins over my veterinary career have been asking Um, what ha— I started noticing some things when I was spaying and neutering dogs when they were 8 weeks old, and I started noticing some things. So I would say my big wins are early desexing. I started asking a bunch of questions. Um, ultra-processed foods for a lifetime, started asking questions like, I don't know if that's the healthiest thing. I'm all about establishing protective immunity with vaccines, but I started seeing weird things with vaccines. So I started asking hard questions in my profession that I would say were not, not only not easily answered, they did not make me popular, but it certainly started a worldwide conversation. And for that, I am forever grateful. I think talking about difficult topics or confusing topics or topics that don't really have an answer, but we can at least start a discussion about why is this happening. I've done that with a multitude of different issues that I believe have made pet parents better. And our veterinarian, core veterinary group of people starting to discuss things that I think will down the road potentially make our profession better because we'll know more and advise differently in 5, 10, 20 years.

Yeah, and giving some informed consent as well for all of those pet parents out there, you know.

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah. And Rodney, from your side of things, I mean, uh, you know, you've come at this effectively from pet ownership to, you know, being launched into driving this. What's been your big sort of Um, you know, piece de resistance.

Gosh, you know, it's— of course, you know, if you, if you put family aside, your dogs aside, and all these incredible big wins in your life, and if you just put it solely on, on social media, it's, it's connecting with people and connect— like being a pet parent and being— it's such a blessing and an honor to be on a podcasts like this with a bunch of doctors as a— with a pet parent perspective, right? Being able— and also being able to connect the world, being able to get on planes and sit with like scientists, Nobel Prize-winning scientists, um, and then meeting them and then connecting them with other people and then connecting the medical world with the, uh, the veterinary world with just research and the love of dogs and passions and stories. That is by far, hands down, my biggest win. Look, I get to sit here with you three amigos, and of course my side amigo right here, hands down biggest win.

That's cool.

Amazing.

And Nick, you've got some questions to add in at this point as well.

Absolutely.

I was going to ask you about, uh, to what do you put your success? What is it that's made you so successful? But I think you've kind of covered that already, so I'm going to go a little bit further and I'm going to say it's really interesting that the two books have come out together. We've got Conor's book here, and he didn't even ask me to put this up, okay? I've I'm just doing this off the top of my head.

That's an awesome book.

It is fantastic. And the Forever Dog book is also a game changer. And I think the raw food world is going to be before the two books and after the two books. I think it's gonna— there's gonna be a seismic change with the Forever Dog taking some of that information and just educating the, the, the, the so much into so many people. And I, first of all, I just want to thank you for it. And second of all, apart from the book, which is all about education and getting people to look and think and feed in a different way, what do you, what else do we need to do to make people think really carefully about the food and the environment and the behavior? What, how else can we drive that message home?

Well, my take on that.

Yeah.

And this was one of the things that we had to try and encompass when writing A Forever Dog. We had a really tall task. We tried to write, you know, we interviewed the top longevity experts around the world, really truly Nobel Prize winning. We went to Harvard, we went to Salk Institute, we went to Broad Institute, we went to MIT. We went to the top people doing amazing research. And then we asked them to backtrack to explain, and some of them doing, you know, DNA testing and doing epigenetic research on the exact older dogs of the owners that we interviewed. So we're kind of doing full circle with the most ancient living, thriving dogs in the world, their DNA, and what their owners did and didn't do, and then talking to the top longevity scientists. But we had to make it digestible for like the brand new pet parent who's never heard about any of this and is like, oh my gosh. We don't want to overwhelm anyone. We want to silence the critics. As critics. We want to give tangible, utilizable information in bite-sized nuggets that everyone can digest, but we want to back up literally every sentence we wrote with a reference or science. So that was a tall order. The book started out like 700 pages, and HarperCollins were like, nope, so start chopping it down. That's really hard. It's like, it's like, what limb do you want to cut off? And I'm like, no, every single time they're like, delete 100 pages. I'm like, yeah, well, you've been through this, Connor. It's really hard.

How stressful. The thing about Go ahead. Sorry, Carla, I cut you off.

It's horrible, Conor Brady. The thing I love about your book is that we tried to cover, yes, food, but what both of us realized and what the longevity scientists talked about is that food matters. Food's the most important thing. It's what we do for our dogs every single day. It's what we're putting in their mouth or not putting in their mouth that shifts everything. But we have been so focused on just food that we oftentimes forget all of the other variables that play into healthy living. And we have both experienced that because we have people that have said, listen, and I've done free-range, organic, raw, nutritionally complete foods my whole life, and my dog still died at 7. How do you explain that? Right? That's why we wrote the book.

Yeah.

Because food is critical, but food isn't everything. So, for me, it was the whole picture. I really view your book, Dr. Conor Brady, like part 2. When people like finish reading Forever Dog and they're like, okay, food is critically important, but so is environment, so is stress, so is metabolic disease, so is Gut health. So is environmental toxins. All of these things play into a long-lived dog. When people want to really focus and drill down on food, you really are like the, okay. In fact, we just, we just put your book on the Fur website when people are like, I want to learn more about food.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, I mean, so you're a nice step too, but putting all of those variables in one book was a difficult task. Did you, did you feel the same way about that?

Oh, there's no question. Right. I mean, of course, when you're doing this, um, There's— it's so multifactorial too, right? Because you've got to think about the, the pet parent ahead of time. I've got to get this from point A to point B. Yeah. As Karen said, just putting the— just the citations alone made the book from like this to like this, but then the cost went from like this to like this, right? Yeah. So it was like, there's no way that we can get— there's no way that we can get this information into every pet parent's hands unless we start, you know, we, we've got to focus on the topics that are important and touch on the things that are also important and allow colleagues like yourselves, like, and all these other incredible doctors and researchers and scientists out in the world, they also have the deep dives and the in-depth, um, of carrying on with those conversations. But the hard part is, and, and all of you know this, if you— when you write a book, is how do I talk to a pet parent How do I talk to a young aspiring vet student who wants to go, you know, make their way up into the ranks? How do I talk to a veterinarian? And how do I talk to like researchers and scientists? And is it even possible to do that? So yeah, we really, really broke it down and tried to make— and tried to speak to everybody. And also— sorry, go ahead.

Go ahead, Rodney. No, sorry, I'll cut off. Sorry, a little bit of a delay.

No, I was just going to say it was— science is I mean, all of us love science, right? But it's trying to make also science fun, right? And then also validating the science. We brought in a third person.

And utilizable.

And utilizable. We wanted to be sort of critical on ourselves. So we brought in a science writer, an incredible, incredible science writer to call us out on our BS, meaning we would bring studies to the table and then we would play Red Army, Blue Army. And so our science writer would be like, hey, Here's where this study is flawed. And then we'd have to go back and argue with our science, write our own book because we wanted, we wanted for all critics to come along at every angle.

And that was important for us because we understand that our viewpoint is not necessarily— our viewpoint is to start a worldwide discussion on what works and what doesn't and why it works and why it doesn't. But out of that, you know, we've asked a lot of questions that our conventional colleagues are saying, where did you come up with that? Or why are we discussing this? And, and so it was important to us that what we put in this book was basically third-party validated. As, as not just credible, but as not cherry-picking the science to support our particular vantage point. So we did bring in third-party validation, which I think is an important piece to the book.

Definitely. I, I— isn't that exactly though— I mean, the two of you are such a perfect team in this respect, because the, the danger is when, uh, uh, I, I'm a classically trained scientist, and so when I write a book, it is— it's not necessarily digestible by the every, everyman. I, I'm not necessarily going to put it down how everybody's going to pick it up. And you know, while Karen is a force of nature from the veterinary world, Rodney, it's like you're just a force of nature of an ability to take a message and, and, you know, unpeel it and like deliver it in such an easy-to-digest manner. Like, it's such an effective way. And Forever— that's the difference between other books and Forever Dog, that the Forever Dog has taken some pretty heavy science. I mean, you have touched on some serious subjects there, and I've written it in a way that I need to read the next page. It's just been flawless. So like, I can see the influence of the two of you in that book. Had Karen written it by herself, it would have gone one way perhaps. Had Rodney written it, it would have gone another way. In your experience, Rodney, like, as— did you feel any intimidation coming to it? Like, when you were talking to these rock stars of science, was there a bit of intimidation at the start? Because I think like today, today people think science is this thing that's handed down on stone tablets, and this is what the science says, trust the science. And it's like, but actually science is just so applicable. Every raw feeder, all the people watching Planet Paws and on Raw Pet Medics, we're all scientists. We all had a question. Our dog had recurring gut issues, and it's just not being fixed with this particular approach. So I'm going to do an experiment, and then you get your conclusions. And so like Rodney, did you feel a little bit of kind of trepidation at the start with the whole science of it being a field that maybe you weren't classically trained into, but you actually are now one of the most influential in the field, ironically.

Yeah, very much so.

Yeah, you know, this— and this goes all the way back to science is curiosity, right? So we're all scientists as kids. Neil deGrasse Tyson says it all the time. As young kids, that's what science is, is curiosity. And of course, you know, if I, I find that I, you know, I always refer to the term citizen science, right? This is where all of us pet parents around the world, citizens around the world, can help and assist scientists, especially when you're sharing their research and their studies, because You know, many times people will reach out to us and scientists and say, hey, I've got this study. It didn't really get a lot. Is there any way that you can try to communicate with people? Right. I have a very short attention span. Dr. Becker will tell you this. She's brilliant in the way she speaks. I don't even understand half the words she says. I have to keep a dictionary in my pocket most of the time.

So, but, but your ADD has served you so well in the sense that he has top-tier scientists. About to publish in Nature, email him and say, the average pet parent's gonna find this really overwhelming. Could you pare it down and make a viral video to help people understand it? That's— Rodney really is a bridge to dry, boring science with big words that no one could understand, but the message is so important. Rodney can take that. And do you know his— the thing I love the most with these brilliant scientists that we sit down with, He'll say, so we let the scientists explain the science. Beautiful. And then Rodney says, now I'll explain it to a 5-year-old child. And you'll see the scientists stop and say, yeah. But it's wonderful because it's out of that message is the connection to meeting people where they're at. And really no book, no message, no platform, no idea is going to get transmitted if we can't say it in a way that people understand. Grasp it, and then are motivated by the results to execute it, to do it. So until those steps happen, we can talk all we want, but it's not information anyone can use until we bring it.

But you'll always have imposter syndrome. Look, when, you know, just being asked to do like, um, the first TEDx talk and then a second TEDx talk, you'll always feel you're not worthy, right? You're always— you'll always feel like you have that imposter syndrome, like, why am I the one who's being asked to do this? Oh my gosh, you know, like I say, just, just an everyday pet parent, right? That will happen to all of us, I truly believe. But it's, it's one of those things where if passion drives you enough and you— if you're built with being comfortable feeling uncomfortable, if that makes any sense, then this is the thing that you want to do. Because listen, even the scientists themselves, those poor guys, get attacked all the time. Anybody can pick apart a study. It doesn't matter what study it is because You'll always hear somebody say, well, you know, I really wish I was a scientist and I could have done that study. Well, you might want to think twice about it because you'll get attacked just like anybody else. People will talk about how the study's flawed. Just look at the memes I make when I'm referencing studies and the people who will attack and be like, oh yeah, well, since you made the meme, you're going to be the representative for the study, so let me fire arrows at you, right? So it does— yeah, but there's always— there's more love than there is, of course, arrows. And so it's, uh, it is a blessing.

That's a very true point though. It's like when you're talking in, um, If you ever see like comments in a non-sciency platform, like an online newspaper or something, you know, you see the comments are like somebody makes a very astute point with something that has oodles of scientific papers behind it, and they'll say, I disagree, and they'll put up one study that disagrees, and that gets 1,000 likes. And it's like, you don't understand this. We always disagree. We're right sometimes, we're wrong sometimes, and people are afraid to be wrong now. It's that kind of social media thing where I must be seen to be right all the time. It's like, That's not how science works. You put out hypotheses, they're rejected sometimes. I mean, we learn from each other and that's what the Forever Dog book was really, is, I mean, because I've read it already. But like, you know, it's this collection of, you know, people say standing on the shoulders of giants. That's what science is. You come equipped because of what people have done before you and then you add your own tiny, often, you know, it seems like an infinitesimal bit and that's what it is. And Forever Dog takes these massive lessons from these huge scientists and, you know, touches on so many— I just, I'm dying to get into some of the things you're talking about, but I can feel myself going to come.

We're going to come to that. We're going to come to that. I want to know from you guys, how did you find transferring the science? Because science often it's about taking an element, you know, whether it's epigenetics, whether it's, you know, a specific nutrient or whatever, which you talk about through your book, which is great. But how did you find taking all of those individual pieces and trying to get it together to sort of give practical advice as to how to add that together for a pet parent in the whole.

That was the nightmare. That was the nightmare.

A plus B equaling C. Yeah. Yeah. Welcome to the world.

And Conor, when I interviewed you, you said, you know, this took— for you, you spent 10 years trying to weave the components together. And then you end up unweaving it and then you reweave it. And then it's kind of a patchwork quilt. And what you hope is at the end of you patching together science, with ideas, with tangible information, you hope that people read it and say, okay, this makes sense. And that is our hope as well. It's so interesting. My dear friend Steve Brown, I have coffee with him once a week. We're Skyping. And so, last week he said to me, hey, where are you? And I said, listen, we're totally overwhelmed. We just feel overwhelmed. Like every day it's just overwhelming. And he said, oh, this is the easy part, Karen. The book drops and then you're just aerial assaulted with criticism. And I was like, oh.

I look forward to that.

Undoubtedly.

Exactly. Undoubtedly that's coming. But there again, when you decide to start a conversation and talk about topics that need to be talked about, you will get criticized. But I think the point is the international global audience and platform and doctors coming to the table wanting to have the conversation is so invigorating and inspiring. And because it's happening worldwide, this is no longer, uh, this is what they think. This is around the globe. This is how the paradigm is shifting worldwide. So, it's not a doctor or a small group of doctors. It's an international community being weaved together by principles and ideas that are shifting. And, we're starting a worldwide discussion, all of us. And, it's amazing because it's no longer kind of us against them, it's people with open minds deciding to come together and critically think about topics that have not yet previously been discussed.

Yeah, that's so good.

You can argue that if you want, but we're going to continue the discussion whether you join or not. And that's the exciting piece.

That's so good. It's like, you know, the danger today is that there's a lack of scientific debate. There's nowhere where we can voice our thoughts, you know, bar a bit of social media, but it gets— it can be a bit tricky. That we all seem to be a bit isolated, you know. So you're this weird guy setting up a raw dog food factory in Ireland, and then there was like Nick Thompson over in the UK who was doing this raw, and we were all these different groups. And there was Karen Becker over there. I watched your video on YouTube, I think was my real first, like, oh my God, it was so effective to me. And, uh, and so then you stray into different groups, but isn't it great when you all come together? Then you're no longer a weakened force of single people, you know. It just becomes a group that it's so positive. You don't need to be battling this, you know, trying to debate with people in forums that don't suit you. Now you can just surround yourself by like thousands of people that are watching this that are just soaking up loads of holistic vets, holistic practitioners, you know, not just pet parents.

We've got loads of professionals come on and, you know, sharing ideas constantly in the messages to the, you know, side or to the below. And it's great to see that actually when I go through and make some comments and you sort of like, you know, actually I'm I'm talking to another holistic vet here and just making comment about, you know, what we've discussed this evening. And it's great. It's, you know, those, those are the sort of things to, to be encouraged by that community, as you say, Karen.

What was that, guys? Sorry, sorry, go ahead, Rodney.

I was gonna say a lot of it has to do just with relating to people, right? Because nobody wants their personal truth challenged. It never works out very well. All of us have our our personal truths, right? And personal truths, when it starts to tie into science and you start challenging people's belief systems, it never really works out well. And then you turn around and you put a study in front of them, it makes it 100 times worse. Research will show they'll build a thicker invisible force field around them when you come at them with a study, right? In fact, they become even more— they believe more in their belief system when you come at them with a study. So it's relatability. It's We all— I mean, the name of the book is because we all want our dogs to live forever. You're a psychopath if you don't. Every single one of us wants our dog, our cat, our family members to be with us as long as possible, right? And so ultimately, at the end of the day, that is the first common— what we all are— can relate to.

We can agree on that.

Absolutely. And that's how we understood with a lot of these scientists. Some of these scientists are so like, they built walls around them. But when you come at them with, hey, I love dogs, you love dogs, yeah, you want your dog to live forever, I want my dog to live forever, let's have a conversation, it always opens the door.

I have to say this, I was really nervous about approaching David Sinclair. Like, one of the—

he was just, I think, Time Magazine's 100 of the most important people on the planet, genetics.

So I'm like, I gotta talk to this guy, right? So everyone's like— I've talked to other colleagues, we talk Even other professional human longevity researchers are like, difficult guy to get a hold of. So, I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to track this guy down. So, I email him. I'm like, I like dogs a lot. Like, this is my focus is dogs. And, he's like, hey, here's my cell number, call me. I'm like, yes. Every single person, every single person that we approached, even these Doctors who are not on other platforms, not giving other interviews, not talking to newspapers. When we told them about the project, we said, hey, listen, we need your information to help support what we have discerned from these ancient dogs and their DNA. We need your help. You're the top geneticist in the U.S. Will you talk to me? And he's like, here's my cell phone. Yes. We were not turned down by a single person. Every single expert agreed to talk to us because they love dogs. And that's the power of dog, right? That's the power, that's the magic.

Yeah, of dogs.

Yeah, they're manifestations of love, aren't they?

Basically, yes.

You know, it's love, it's family, it's— yes, that's what it comes down to, guys. You must have done a phenomenal amount of, of, of reading for this. And I saw on one of the posts you did recently that you had Jason Fung saying great things about you.

Love him.

The Forever Dog. And I think he is one of my heroes. The Obesity Myth is unbelievable. And I'm just doing The Cancer Code at the moment. And so kudos to you for nailing down the Fungmeister. That's very, very good. What other reading— no, what are you reading right now? What are your favorite books of the moment? And what are you gifting? What books are you gifting at the moment?

I haven't read anything in the last 6 months because I've been doing this. I also haven't slept or kept up on my cardiovascular training as well, Nick, sadly. Oh my goodness. We're at that kind of crunch point where our entire lives are consumed. But that being said, the last book that I— I do a lot of audiobooks, books on tape, because I run. And when I run, I just listen to audiobooks.

For sure.

The last audiobook that I downloaded was— okay, you go first and I'll look at my downloads.

Okay, I think that's a bit of a cheat to say the last book. The Alchemist.

Marvelous.

See, for all of our normal followers, this is the book club, um, book of the week. Okay, we're gonna have two.

I like this.

Okay, Rodney, the last book. Okay.

Oh, sorry, Karen, you want to know the last book I read?

Yeah, go ahead.

Go first.

I read Mindset by Carol Dweck, The Happiness Track by Emma Seppala, and Joyful by Ingrid Lee. Those are the last 3 books last month I downloaded.

Those sound very positive.

Well, yeah, you obviously needed a boost.

You were in the—

I worked myself up the emotional scale while running.

Absolutely amazing.

Um, isn't it a terrible— like, people don't understand though, when you're bringing out something like the book, it's a ferocious amount of work. And particularly the type of book that you've gone for, it's a ferocious amount of work. Whatever— I'm not sure about writing a fictional book, I have no experience of it, but in my opinion, I see fictional writers churning out a book every 6 months or a year, and that has to be a different amount of commitment surely than bringing out something that has so many factoids in it. That you feel like you can be tripped up by any one of those factoids. So you have to explore each one of them and do a huge amount of due diligence. So it takes a horrific amount of mind health and effort to get the book out. And then the book comes out and you deal with the next 5 or 6 months. So it does like— it takes up everything. It takes— it's all you think about. It's a huge process, you know. So while you hope it was enjoyable for the two of you, I can only imagine that it was quite stressful. But it is great fun afterwards. Whatever people say that you have to deal with a certain amount of hassle That's— that was not my experience. I had nothing but positive stuff coming from people. People are just so hungry for the information. So I, well, I respect Steve Brown like no other. If it was Steve to tell it to you, like, you know, I think there'll be so much positivity coming from this. I really don't see— I really don't see, uh, it's just such a positive message. And you didn't just focus on one subject, whereas I'm just upset everything I see is nutrition's fault, and so I'm not going to be right all the time. Whereas you touch on a lot of subjects that— there's many ways to increase the health of your dog. I mean, you touch on some huge subjects that— God, I'm dying to talk about them. But, um, what would be your, what would be your, your, your major take-home message from The Forever Dog? What do you want to happen for pet owners reading this?

I—

so for me, I think what's very important Dr. Conor Brady, is that sometimes, no matter how much you think you're doing it right, there's so many other things that you don't think of. For one of the hardest things for me, and, you know, you know, when I just getting into this, was just thinking, if I just fed my dogs raw, whole, live, fresh, organic foods, if I handmade it myself every single day, my dogs are all going to live to be 30, right? That's just where my mindset was. I didn't understand the complexities of all of the other things that I needed to take into consideration. And all of the other things that I believe my fellow pet parents— I believe we all know a lot about some stuff and maybe not so much about other stuff. So it was like, how do we bring all— Karen built this incredible list, which is so ironic, dogs. But she broke it down, D-O-G-S. Talk a little bit about you, D-O-G-S.

Yeah, so I will stop. So I set up this DOGS strategy for diet, nutrition, like the 4 things you got to think about if you want to create optimal vitality and wellbeing is diet and nutrition, D, optimal movement exercise, genetic and epigenetic triggers. So you can have a poorly bred dog that does, that can do well, or a beautiful genetic masterpiece that you can ruin with environmental poor choices. And then stress in the environment. And when we say stress in the environment, yes, emotional stress, yes, physical stress, but yes, chemical stress, veterinary stress, all of those stressors affect wellbeing. And so for me, the DOGS strategy is easy to think of the things that guardians need to be focusing on because we tend to get tunnel vision and we focus on the area that is front and center for us, but we don't necessarily think about all of the insidious variables that play into health.

Yeah.

And for me, Conor, it was, um, it was what if you're broke? And this is another— when I told Steve Brown I was writing this book, he said, Karen, do you realize that 85% of dogs around the world are eating ultra-processed food? Not because their owners want to feed them that, because they can't afford fresh food for their own kids, two-legged kids, much less four-legged kids. So your beautiful organic free-range, ethically sourced, ethically slaughtered meats is a gift if you can afford to feed that to yourself and your family and then dogs and cats. But what if you can't? The book has to give clear instructions on if you cannot afford to feed anything other than ultra-processed little brown chunks to your dog their whole life, what else can you do to radically improve health? And that to me, Conor, was my biggest challenge in this book, to provide tangible options for people that may not have the resources they need to feed what they want, but still want to extend the life of their dog.

I love that. That was exactly what I was getting at. I wanted to bring up dogs, that, that, um, D-O-G-S kind of approach. Do you know what it made me think of? It's some— it's a similar way I approach it. I see the— your health as, as, as a scale of 1, not to 100, you know, or a force field of 100%. You're at maximum health, 100%, rude, positive, strong health. And people are always looking for the one thing I can do. I'll feed good nutrition and my dog will be better. But actually so many things are annihilating that all the time. You do a great job certainly convincing me of just looking at the chemicals around the home. I know we're touching on the book but it's just so effective when you say these guys are on the ground nuzzling around in the dust all day and you list off for me a horrifying amount of where I was ticking boxes. I hated you for the tick box thing because I was ticking it going, oh my God, my score is not good here. And so That's the whole point. Like, I would be so obsessed about nutrition and I would take my eyes off the fact that, you know, I did some smelly compound that's on the toilet, you know, the kind of thing that gives you nice fragrances and stuff that people put in their houses. And like, what do I wash my floor in? And, you know, that sort of stuff accumulates. It's not just one thing that people can do. It's a whole bevy of things from the exercise that you talk about to the stuff to use around the home, to nutrition, to stress, which was so like even the sleep you touch on sleep, which is something that I want to, want to dive into. So like you said, it's such a lovely holistic approach to like, it's not one thing, guys, it's all these things. And they're so simple to change when you're given the information, when you read it and you do that checklist and you look at your score mounting up and you feel like, oh, I'm going to lie on this one because I was planning on buying the natural cleaner, actually. So You know, so it was really effective for me too. I read that and I thought things have to change. I started texting my wife straight away going, you know, you know, we have got to stop using fabric softener in the house. I know this, I know this fabric softener I'm using is not right. It's a lovely smell, but it's, it's not right. There's better choices. And we sent— we thought dry cleaning was a new thing. This is fantastic. This lady will wash our clothes for 20 quid, this company, and a whole big bag. And I said, ladies, we're going to talk about his shorts tonight. Anyway, but even all those small things add up, guys, and that's what the Forever Dog did wonderfully for me. It's like it brought in that force field approach where you can regenerate that force field only so quick, but if you're getting attacked all the time, it's only gonna— it's only gonna shrink. Yeah, so I love that approach. People only consider their health when it starts to rock and get bad, but it— the whole environmental thing has allowed it to get there. So that was my take on that. From the book was.

I think that that was the— well, that was just going to mention that that was that piece when dogs are 2 to 3 years of age, when their bodies are thriving and they don't have achy joints and they, you know, they've got— still have clean white teeth. We don't think about internal cellular aging or the body accumulation. We call it body burden in the book. What the body burden— we don't think about cellular aging happening in our 1-year-old dog. But it is.

Yeah.

And we don't think about that because our dogs are, they're hyperactive. They're bouncing off the wall. They're thriving. You don't think about what's happening at a year of age, but that is what some of these scientists really rattled us with. If you don't address what's happening in a dog's environment when they're 1 and 2 and 3, you have just removed the opportunity to some extent by maximizing their lifespan at 14, 16, 18. And that was, that was hard.

It did hit us very hard, right? Again, to go back to the original question you asked, which for me was I always thought looking in the bowl was the most important thing. And, you know, I come to the hard realization, especially speaking with a lot of scientists, that the environment is so critical, especially right now during this pandemic. They've been doing so many different studies on dogs, just analyzing what's floating around in the dog's body. There was a study that just came out just testing urine in dogs and cats. They found six-fold levels of home toxins today, the highest levels that they've ever seen because we are spending more time at home because of what's going on around the world, this global pandemic that's happening, right? Little things that we're not thinking about, right? Like frying oils in our home. Who thinks about that? I don't think about that, right? Acrolein, the chemical when testing dogs, sixfold, sixfold levels. So the accumulation of frying things inside your home, these are things you don't think about. Your couch. Oregon State, when they did the study on cats, yeah, 19— in the 1980s, it was 1 in 200 cats were diagnosed with hyperthyroidism hypothyroidism. Dr. Conor Brady was just telling me this this morning. Today it's 1 in 10. And guess what they're pointing at? The culprit. Guess what the culprit they're pointing at? Your couch. Your couch, because of the fire retardant sprayed on your couch, could potentially be increasing the odds of hyperthyroidism in cats. Well, my God, I'm on my couch. My pets are on my couch.

So we asked the Environmental Working Group, we're like, okay, listen, everyone buys their couches. I mean, I can't afford an organic couch. I'd love one. It's like $20 grand. So I, you know, everyone goes to IKEA and buys their couches and they're like, right, put an organic cat and throw over it. Done. I was like, brilliant. Yeah. I mean, just simple, easy. All the pet beds coming in sprayed with flame retardants, you know, all of our dogs are hypothyroid, all of our kitties are hyperthyroid. There's a reason for that.

Yeah.

Same thing over here.

Environmental chemicals. Exactly.

Yeah.

Big people are into, into, you know, carpets as well. And the amount of people have been doing home renovations and putting new stuff down and getting new carpets and the amount of chemicals and stuff that's chucked onto those carpets to stop them going mouldy in the warehouses, it's just unbelievable, you know, for floorings of all descriptions.

And you see, we're only like, we've only been picking on one tiny part of the book, and this chemical conversation for me needs to go on for 45 more minutes.

We're going to move on, we're going to move on.

Guys, let's dig in. I was offered like, when we bought the couch, we've got a couch downstairs, like myself and Leïla wanted to get a nice couch, it was pretty much our only purchase that we could afford time 5, 6 years ago. Let's get a nice couch. Would you like stain protection on that? Some something guard? And it's like, well, yeah, I mean, I spill stuff all the time and Elaine does too. It's like, I don't want my couch looking moldy after 2 years. And it's like, yeah, put it on, this is great. And then, you know, I've often thought in the back of my head, that probably wasn't a great idea. And then I'm reading in your book going, I don't believe it, I'm really annoyed, my baby's lying on that couch, you know. Now then you tell me, but then you throw out the solution. It's like, well, just stick a blanket on top. I was like, yes, I'm going to stick a blanket on top. So I went down and then back up again. So, you know, thanks for that one as well.

And I got to tell you this one story, just one quick story while we're going. I have, I have friends who have done absolutely everything right in their homes and they've, they've made sure that the couches are correct and they've made sure that the carpets and they've made sure they had no VOCs and air fresheners and scented candles. I mean, they did absolutely everything. And here in Nova Scotia, especially in Canada where I'm at, A lot of these dogs have been dying of cancer and specifically lung cancer. And so, you know, we wanted to address the invisible things in the homes that one may not think of. Like, check this out. I have this little meter right here. This is a radon meter. So here in Nova Scotia, and especially this is a problem actually globally, worldwide, you know, radon, a natural gas that comes up, you know, from the soil up into the earth. If you get a small crack in your foundation and radon starts to build up within your home, You can't smell it, you can't taste it, you can't see it. It's invisible. Nobody in the household can see it. Yet here in my province, after they did an analysis, 50% of the homes here have toxic levels within them. Can't smell it, can't taste it, can't see it. Dogs and cats will be impacted the most aside from family members. My sister and everyone now are buying these meters. These are like, these are the kind of the small hacks we're talking about in the Forever Dog book, because you could be doing a million things, right? And there's only so many things you can control. That's the big, big part of this, right? There's only so many things that you can control, but when you know better, you'll only do better. So this has been a really big focus right now here in my hometown, and I know in different parts of the US, testing your home for radon.

Yeah, I think it's just— I think part of our— both of us waking up to the fact that the other thing that right here in Nova Scotia, there, all of the water goes through a natural foundation of arsenic. The bedrock contains arsenic, so all the water is contaminated. The government doesn't tell you that. So, when we had the water tested, I'm like, "Holy cow, like the arsenic is off the flipping charts." So, that's really good to know, right? Great. And it's thinking about this holistic perspective of what are we doing to clean up the air? What are we doing to filter the water? What are we doing to minimize contact with endocrine-disrupting chemicals? And we don't really think about it because we don't necessarily connect our dog's cancer diagnosis to what they've been laying on or licking carpet their entire lives. We don't think about that.

The toys, the toys we give them. I have a post coming out tomorrow just showing they are still making chicken-flavored plastic and pork-flavored plastic toys for dogs. So their bones, they look like bones and they're as hard as bones, and, you know, but crucially, they're not actual bones. These ones cost money and come in a nice plastic container, but these plastic bones have chicken flavor and MSG in it to make the dog want to chew the bone. And it's like, I cannot believe there's a chicken flavor on a plastic toy, but it's not for serious chewers. It's only for dogs that go a little tiny bite just in case he swallows bits. It's like the madness of the sector that we just, we look for one or two things that we can do, but we all— it's so, it's— oh my God, there's just so much to talk about.

I'm just going to round up a little bit just to say, you know, there's so much information in here. Um, I've seen a little bit coming out on your feeds. Uh, you've been dripping in a few of the sort of additions and things like that, which has been great to see. But I think you also mentioned in the book that you've got a couple of websites that you're putting more information on, um, probably those 1,000 or so pages they asked you to axe from the book. Uh, you've got all of that information on those websites, is that right? Are those the two right, the websites that are coming across for, for you guys?

The—

I— it's actually just Forever Dog, not the It's just foreverdog.com.

All right.

Okay.

Yes.

Yeah.

And we are building that now. We are.

Yeah.

So yeah, the foreverdog.com would be— that's so again, especially for all the science buffs that are out there that want all those citations, those, those links that we have, like the big giant section we had to take out of the book. We have everything organized and all stacked up there as well. Yeah.

Yeah. That's cool.

Fantastic. So guys, will you come back for a part 2, please? It's, it's so fascinating to, to talk to you. Rodney Habib, Dr. Karen Becker, you are marvels of the raw and fresh world. You are changing the life of millions, and we love you for it.

Absolutely.

So, so much. We at Raw PM think you're the best thing since sliced bread.

Yeah, absolutely. Hats off to you.

Thank you, all three of you.

Well, we feel the same way. We absolutely feel the same way. It's just so awesome to see what all you of incredible, uh, doctors and influencers and scientists and what people are doing all over the world with their channels. It's so awesome. Like, look how many different countries we have connected right now with just, with just this call alone. So, um, I'm a huge fan of you guys as well. We're, we're over here watching your guys's stuff as well.

You guys are doing some incredible stuff, and it is through synergism, it's through us connecting and continuing the conversation on, on an international level. This is how we not only change perspective, open our brains, generate new ideas, but it's how we make our animals live a happier, longer, healthier life. We start a conversation that needs to continue. So yes to part 2 of a podcast and part 3 and part 4.

So many things to talk about.

Yeah, there is. We have so many things. Yeah, we've got the nitty-gritty to get into. So for the second part, just to prep everyone, that's what's going to be coming. We will be getting into a little bit about the book and some of the details in the book that we want to probe on and chat about and explore and put our minds together about, but it's going to take another 45 minutes to do it justice. So that is coming, guys, in time. But for now, I just want to really thank you guys for coming along. It's just been great. I love talking to you. I find you inspirational, and I am very much looking forward to you coming back very shortly. So thanks very much for joining us tonight. Absolutely.

Yeah, great. Thanks to all the guys out there making comments too. And yeah, thanks from—

yeah, thank you, thank you to everyone watching. Yes, all the people that are watching right now, all the awesome comments. It's just my favorite part about all of these is just the community within the comment section and everyone helping each other, everyone out. That's my favorite part.

Yeah, it is, it is good. It's good to have the crew. So, so that's it. So guys, we're going to be back next week at same time, same place, um, I'm assuming. But, uh, So something.

Yeah, we'll be talking about some sort of supplement. You know, we'll probably get something out, whether it's some sort of stuff or, you know.

Oh yeah, we did say we were going to do that.

Actually, we were going to do fermented foods. That's the—

Harry, you're calling to remind me. Okay, so look, we will—

Sorry, no, I'm going to tune in and I want to participate with a fermented foods conversation.

You could be a regular guest, Karen, sitting in the back, kind of like, uh, is it Shapiro on the, on the Dave Letterman Show? We can just bring you on, you can play a bit of guitar.

Well, you need some estrogen. You definitely need some estrogen to balance out the show. You can't beat it.

We keep giving it to Nick. That's why he's got beautiful hair.

Yeah, the hair.

Absolutely fantastic. We're going to wrap it up now. Brendan's going to press the button and we're going to say a massive thanks to you guys and to everybody who's joined.

I love this.

Couldn't do it without you. Absolutely fantastic. So good night to everybody. Thank you.