RPM Friday Night Live: Carbohydrates 2

It's, it's Friday, it's 7 o'clock, it's time for RPM.

RPM. RPM.

Oh my God.

And I'm in the middle, so I'm going to introduce today, and it is my great good fortune to be with Dr. Brendan Clarke and Dr. Conor Brady. Guys, how are you?

Feeling good tonight? Yes. Feeling, feeling ready to get at it. What about you, Bren?

Oh yeah, I've had a really interesting week of admin just before I go back to work. You know, it's just like paperwork has to happen, doesn't it? It's just like, but hey, no, it's been a rainy week. I'm going to go back to work next week and it's going to be glorious sunshine for 3 weeks on the trot. That's just what I'm looking forward to. Nice.

It's nice getting the admin done though. It hangs over you like a wet blanket and it slows you down and you feel depressed thinking I have got to tackle that shoebox. Receipts or I'm just going to drown. Yeah.

How about you, Conor? What have you been up to?

Just mad busy this week. I took a week off there last week, so things build up, you know yourself, and getting a few consults and stuff. So that was just a busy week of that. I'm not managing. Takes, takes time. I did. Becker, thank you, Bren. Karen Becker did release the interview that we did, and more crucially really, and she wrote a big long piece for Mercola and put it on the head of their website, on the top banner of their homepage. Top Story. And so it was a great interview and she like, she really gave it a good push. And as a result, on Tuesday I was the, or still am I think, the number one book in veterinary, in veterinary books on amazon.com in the States. I got second in the UK and first in the US. Yeah, so that's good. So now you can say, oh, I made a bestseller list, like even if it was like for an hour, as long as I got the snapshot of that.

I think they're trying to poach him. I think they're trying to poach him for their show.

Oh yeah, 3 is a good number.

We should try and get, try and get, uh, Becca and Habib.

Yes, if we can work out if we can get, you know, we put them in the corner, that would be great. That would be great crack. The two of them are great crack to talk to, like, they are good fun. Um, and the other thing was, um, I just wanted to say that yesterday I posted that, um, Russia has started vaccinating their pets for COVID. And I know this is a bit of a hot potato, and we don't talk about— we don't do politics, we don't do any of that stuff. I know we don't, but I just wanted to highlight that no pet has ever given COVID to a human yet that we've seen, and I don't even know if there's any been any history of coronavirus transmitting from pets to humans. Some animals can, it has happened very rarely, but never from pets, and not certainly not with COVID And I kind of put up a post 2 months ago, uh, because some expert was in the Daily Mail or one of the rags, and they were saying that, uh, pets are a very significant risk of COVID And it's like, no, there's— it's the CDC is saying absolutely no risk. And yes, yesterday then we get the announcements, uh, Russians have developed a vaccine for pets. And I guarantee you this one's coming because, you know, and I was really annoyed. I put that up last night and I rewrote it about 2 or 3 times to not sound too angry, but I was angry. So, um, yeah, I just wanted to kind of announce that and go.

Just going back to that, it's one of the, uh, virus— the, the vaccines. So there is another coronavirus, different Sirovar, for dogs. And it's one of the ones that the WSABA put absolutely don't bother with whatsoever in your dog.

Why?

Because it's useless.

Useless.

Oh, wow.

I think pointless.

That's really—

that was really depressing. I was thinking about it all last night and I woke up this morning thinking about it. But anyway, it'll be interesting to get the people's opinion that are listening. What about you, Nick? How was your week?

I've had a really good week. So number one, I had a haircut.

Oh, very nice.

My darling wife gave me a haircut and very good it is. So thank you to Ellie for that. And I've had a really exciting I've had my first proper day of work that it feels like. I've came down this morning to the Ashdown Forest where Benefit Natural have got their plants, and I've been looking around that with Greg van Praagh, and very impressed. Some really just, you know, great setup, really nice product. Yeah, went in, smelt 2 tons of tripe, and it was just fresh as a daisy.

Isn't that funny? It doesn't have to stink.

Beautiful.

Yeah, beautiful.

So really fun. And he's going to cook me and his missus a ribeye steak and give us some very fine wine after the show. And I'm at his place now. Yeah, I thought you were sitting in a shed or something. So guys, we're going to talk about carbs.

Yes, talk about carbs.

It's all about carbs. All about you and me.

Yeah.

So should I kick off?

Yes.

Explain, because it took me 25 years to really, really, really understand this stuff. And what I wanted to say was that it kind of, kind of strays into obesity and things like that. But oh, yes.

Yeah.

Well done. If you have, for example, if you had two people, okay, and you give one person 2,000 calories of high-fat diet and you give the other person 2,000 calories of high-carb diet, so loads of pasta, that's going to have a completely different effect. So let's say they're identical twins, that's going to have a different effect. So the person on the high-fat diet may lose weight, or if they're on a high-protein diet— I think you've got a study that talks about this.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

Brilliant. They may lose weight, but almost certainly the person on the high-carb diet, 2,000 calories, remember, and that's doing the same level of exercise and everything's the same, they will almost certainly put on weight. And so it took me a long time to get that. They also did a study. There's a 2008 New England Journal of Medicine study where they had 3 groups of 500. It was published, it was published by the New England Journal of Medicine out of Tel Aviv. So this is an Israeli study and they had 3 groups. Okay. They all— and so 3 groups of 500 men. And the first group, they had a, a low-carb, high fat diet. In the second group, they had a Mediterranean diet where the— and they could eat as much as they like. Okay, so this was low carb, high fat. The middle group was capped, only 1,800 calories or something, and they were on a Mediterranean diet. And the third group was classic Weight Watchers low-fat diet, and they were capped as well. Gentlemen, of those 3 groups, which group do you think— remember, one has no cap to their calories, the first one, the high fat, the Mediterranean is capped, and the Weight Watchers, the low fat diet, is capped as well— which one lost the weight best and kept off the weight the best? The answer—

I'll have to go with that—

is the first group, where they did not have their calories capped and they were eating a low-carb, high-fat diet. And that was— I came across this maybe, I don't know, 6, 8 years ago, and that absolutely blew my mind. Absolutely blew my mind. And so it's basically carbs promote insulin, and insulin is the hormone of storage. It inhibits fats coming out of your fat deposits, and it hastens glucose into your glycogen in your liver, into your muscle, and into your fat deposits so that you can make more fat. Okay, that's why carbs are— no, that's one of the many reasons that carbs are so, so bad for you. I've just got one other. I should have sent you this diagram, but I've got a diagram here which says And the problem with insulin, if you get just one spike of insulin, it's like it's neither here nor there. It's doing its job. Yeah, fine. The problem is that humans, when you eat cornflakes for breakfast, you have a sandwich for lunch, and then you have a low-carb, low-fat dinner because you've been told to eat that. You have pasta. Okay, so carb, carb, carb. Okay, so we're doing that and everybody's putting on weight. And in America especially. But what we're doing with, with kibble is we're feeding our dogs high-carb food twice a day. Most dogs eat twice a day. Most dogs eat kibble. And we're wondering why we're seeing the obesity rates climbing, climbing, climbing so much. And if you have high insulin— insulin is a Sunday best hormone which you just use, you know, a bit here and there. But we humans and our dogs, because they're eating kibble, are eating it all, are having high insulin. And insulin like that is toxic. And the diagram I've got in front of me here is saying you have high insulin for too high for too long, which is pretty standard with the Western diet or the kibble diet. You get, you get your, the smooth muscle in your blood vessels will contract, uh, you will Why would they contract? Because of the insulin. It's insulin-y. Insulin has that effect on the blood vessels when it's too high for too long. You will absorb sodium and this will mean that your blood pressure rises. And how many people are on blood pressure medication when actually all they need to do is have a low-fat, a low-carb and low vegetable oil? I've just found out from the Shanahan book that vegetable oil is just death on a plate. That's a whole whole other side of things. And that's going to give you hypertension, it's going to give you lesions on your blood vessels. You don't get them in dogs, but we do.

We—

sure, sure as anything that they get away with that, which gives you cardiovascular disease, which is why most of us are going to get heart attacks and strokes and, and, and these kind of things. I think it's— there you go, that's it. That's just my—

like, what's the— remember somebody said about when cholesterol was building in the arteries, and for years the same thing we saw people were getting fat, it must be 'cause they're eating fat. So low-fat, high-carb diets, '70s obesity epidemic. Then they saw the cholesterol and they said, suddenly you've all started eating too much cholesterol, low-cholesterol diet.

Low cholesterol.

But that cholesterol was not coming from your food, it was coming from your body. It's the body's fire extinguisher. You're so inflamed because one thing about insulin, guys, is that it spikes cytokines. I've a poster here on the side of this and it spikes cytokines in the body. It's inflammatory. Every gram of fat on your body, excess fat, is inflammatory. So the more of it you have, the more inflamed you are. And then there was one more trick. Do you remember, Nick, our mate Lustig? Professor Lustig is the insulin carb guy. And he is the one who discovered the missing link. What was it that we kept on eating and the fat stores weren't saying enough? And the fat stores produce leptin. And that's like them saying, we've enough, guys, we're rammed. You know, we're full of fat. And insulin knocks off that leptin. It stops the communication of leptin. Isn't that right? It blocks leptin receptors. So you just, you don't—

yeah, which is how you can eat a bag of chips in one go because you just keep on eating. Just keep on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It resets your base level as well. That leptin level tries to, you know, outdo the insulin, so it's a bit of a competition, and you actually reset your baseline so that your weight then becomes heavier for longer because it's harder to break that leptin release. So you end up constantly, you know, just going up a stepladder of just getting heavier and heavier.

And what's criminal is that we know this is what happens with humans.

Oh yeah.

And we're omnivores, so we can deal with, you know, vegetables and starch, a bit of starch here and there. And then we go and do it to our dogs and wonder why they all get obese and cardiovascular disease. The BSABA now classes obesity as a disease. No, as a disease. Previously they didn't, and they, they're relating it. They say that it can reduce your life, the dog's life expectancy, by up to 2 years. Yeah, carbs bump your insulin, insulin bumps your fat deposits. That's basically how it works. You can live up to 2 years less as a dog. Your expense of owning an obese dog is nearly significantly higher. And cardiovascular disease, you've got renal disease, all these things come on back, respiratory disease on the back of it because of the carbs, because we're feeding kibble.

Yeah, it's mad, isn't it? And so it's so painful to know that like we're feeding it to them. Like at least with us, we've got this addiction, money in our pockets and we can just buy stuff in shops. It's very hard not to do it when you're shopping, walking past the chocolate aisle at the start when you're hungry. It's designed very well. But with dogs, it's literally what we're giving them. So it's kind of torturous that we actually totally did that to them. Okay, on the advice, we're going on pretty poor advice. There was one thing to mention there, but when Nick, as Nick had mentioned this last week, when we mentioned carbs, we're doing a very throwaway term there for the carbs that we were mentioning last week. If you didn't watch last week, please watch last week. These are like your high-impact, high-glycemic carbs. They're being dextrinized, they've been cooked, they're going to impact the blood a lot, which spikes the insulin. There are good carbs, and good carbs are fiber, okay? So what we're doing is, I want to say good carbs, we're not really talking about dogs, we're straying back to humans here. But what fiber does, which we, you know, the difference between white rice and brown rice, brown rice has a bit of fiber on the outside of it, so it's slightly better, but still very lot of carbs packed underneath the shell there ready to be released. So what fiber does is it slows the rate of digestion in the body, which means you get a slower, a lower spike. So studies show that the more high fiber foods you eat, the less insulin spikes you get, the less inflamed you become, And they actually, while high carbohydrate diets, I'm just reading this out straight here, increase inflammatory heart disease, joint inflammation, the opposite can be said of high fiber foods which decrease heart disease and joint inflammation in studies of over 2,500 people. So it's like when there's some good carbs in there, but it's the processing. And when you present a dog with 50% wheat, processed, ultra-processed wheat or corn, that is just pure sugar syrup. There's very little difference. It's one tiny digestive step.

Polished rice too.

Polished rice.

All of it.

Like, you know, sweet potato, pea, it doesn't matter if there's a tiny bit of fiber in there with it. That is— so when we talk about carbs, that's— that's—

we're talking about white carbs. Yeah, sugar and refined flour and pasta. Not the pasta's white, but you know what I mean.

Yeah.

And bread.

Yeah, yeah, that can be metabolized very quickly into sugars.

Yeah.

And that's what we do with the kibble. Not only do we feed them— feed them these refined carbs. It's very, very refined, very, very tiny particle size. We cook it 6 times.

So ready to go. And I think like, like coming back to the thing that we're putting that into the pets, what would very much annoy me as a non-vet, not having a go at all the vets here, but it's very annoying also with pancreatitis, obesity and pancreatitis, where the inclination of the vet is that you have caused the disease by— I'm trying to point to the camera— you have caused it. Whose fault is this? It's you. You're loving them too much. You're loving them to death. There is powerful, what you would call, influencers out there that are producing copious amounts of science saying why carbs aren't so bad for dogs, but they don't actually produce a long-life study or anything that of use. They just talk around the fact that you are simply giving them too much pizza. And so I really don't like the fact that when your dog is overweight, it's like, are you giving him an extra treat or two? It's like, why can't your dog have a treat or two? I mean, what's wrong with that? It's because he's living on 50% sugar is he's overweight, and not because I gave him— oh God, I was going to say a grape— of whatever, you know, a meat, a lump of meat now and again, a sausage, you know. And it's the same with pancreatitis. It's like when you come in, it's like, did you give him the fat off your steak? It's like, why couldn't the dog eat the fat off a steak? It's because I've been feeding your high carbohydrate food that my dog's on the table, not because I gave him a sausage. And it sparked off some—

Just tell us about that, Conor, the triglyceride thing. Just there's a study by Mark—

Yeah, Roberts is the—

Roberts, that's right. Just tell us about triglycerides and—

We did a thing on pancreatitis and if people want more detail, they can go back over this. But we've known for years in the same way in the '70s as we've just discussed, we thought that people are getting fat, it must be because they're eating fat. No, it was because of carbs. And then we thought people are getting cholesterol in their arteries, it must be because they're eating cholesterol. No, they're eating too much carbs, sugar. And now we saw pancreatitis was the issue. And one of the kind of symptoms of this disease when it really progresses in an acute bout of pancreatitis is there's going to be lots of fat in the blood. Am I right, lads? Blood triglycerides are quite high, so they test for these things, or they test for the enzymes, test for lipase or whatever. Anyway, it's one of the signs that you don't want too much fat in your blood, and it's to be avoided. And when your dog presents with these high fat readings, the vet's inclination is that, well, the dog, it's got a fat issue, you must have been eating fat. So what do they do? They drop the fat content of the food, even more carbs. But we've known for 10 years, in fact, 15 years in humans. And where's the slide on pancreatitis?

While you're finding that, I'll just explain that actually the triglycerides and the low-density lipids versus the high-density lipids. So cholesterols are not actually problematic. It's actually the triglycerides within the blood that's causing a lot of this inflammation that you're talking about. So this is where there's a bit of a myth around cholesterol, which is a really useful molecule for bandaging vessels, for finding damage, but also for forming hormones.

It's vital.

Yeah, the white matter around neurons so that they work better. So, you know, having low cholesterol can actually strip your brain of all of those vital fat components, the neurons. You know, all of that cognitive dysfunction.

Yeah, if you do drop the cholesterol, your body just makes loads more. Yeah, so it's—

sorry to interrupt—

physiology, isn't it? You know, oh, let's feed low cholesterol, that's going to have no difference. Yeah, and that's criminal, isn't it?

We have a slide here. Listen to this for stats, just to read out the scariest stats from the pancreatitis talk we did here. 34 to 64% of normal dogs at post-mortem are found to be suffering chronic pancreatitis at the time of death. 45 to 60% of adult cats. So it's just like endemic that they are, that in animals that they're going to have rotten pancreases by the time— and that was mid-age cats. Anyway, here's the studies. The more carbs you eat, the more— so in very short, I don't need to read this out. If you burn, if you eat lots of carbs in very simplistic language here, if you eat lots of carbs, the body is more than happy to burn carbs for energy and it burns it away and it just focuses on carbs. Keep giving me carbs, I'll burn it because it's fast impact energy and the body loves it. And all the while it takes its eye off burning fat. Which is a much slower creature to burn. It's diesel as opposed to a petrol engine, and it just does— would rather burn the carbs. It takes its eye off the fat burning. So what happens? Fat builds in the blood, rather paradoxically. So it's feeding carbohydrates initially to humans that actually builds blood fat. We know that. So in dogs, these meat eaters who have no metabolic need of carbs at all in their diet, when we feed them— now Robert has done the studies and he's showing that as you feed high carbs to dogs, their blood fat spike. So in the middle of a bout of pancreatitis, to sum up, if you're not going to go back and watch the video, it's like whatever works. Okay. A lean protein diet. Great. Okay. But at all stages, like after that, Mark Roberts is saying, I don't have dietary advice for a week or two after that because fat's not the issue. Dogs should be on lean meat diets. Fat isn't going to cause the issue. It spikes blood triglycerides a tiny bit, but nothing like carbs. Carbs are the enemy for pancreatitis. Yeah. And I wanted to just before we want to get into cancer and stuff because we do have a lot to get through. I wanted to come back to that weight loss thing, the study. I just wanted to read out this paragraph that the dry pet food— I'm ranting, I'm getting hot in the face.

You want to be careful, we're going to cut you off if you carry on ranting.

Yeah, no, I've plugged myself in with extra power, so I'm not going to— all the lights will go. So look, here's a paragraph and it's telling because of who did it and who did it was Nestlé Purina did their own study. So it's interesting that the people are doing these studies, they've already been told with these weight loss diets. Thank you, Nestlé Purina. Yeah, these, yes, absolutely. There's many problems with these weight loss diets, okay? So with the weight loss diets for dogs, low fat, whatever they call it, and what they do is they bulk the amount of indigestible fiber in the diet. So the dog, it's like a runway model chewing tissue before a show, as I said in the obesity talk. But we know that these diets don't work when they're trialed properly. We know that high protein diets produce better weight loss in dogs. There's 7 studies on that. Light pet foods, in inverted commas, are shown to cause nutritional deficiencies because you're now eating a huge amount of fiber at the cost of the other ingredients, but also it affects how much the dog's going to poo, which is pulling the food through far too quick, on and on. Also your taurine issue if you're worried about DCM. Hydrated diets produce better weight loss in overweight cats. That was a huge study. And high protein diets reduce problem behaviors such as begging and scavenging in dogs. But here's the really interesting one because it was done by a dry food company on why high protein diets are so important for obesity because because they did the study. So Diaz et al. in 2002 took a number of obese beagles and divided them into two groups. One was placed on a high protein diet of 48% protein, and the other received a conventional weight loss dry diet by a certain pet food manufacturer. They fed each dog whatever it took to induce weight loss at the rate of 2% per week. Once the dogs reached their target weights, Diaz assessed how they got there. The first thing they noted was that the dogs eating the higher protein diet actually consumed more calories than the dogs in the weight loss food. 76% versus 68%, they were eating more food, which is great news if you're a fatty and you want a big dinner. You don't have to give them smaller meals, guys. Second, while both groups lost the same amount of weight, the high protein group lost on average 13% more body fat. That's the crucial bit compared to their brethren on the weight loss foods. In other words, they retained lean lean body mass. And lean body mass is the basal driver of the inflammatory kind of whole pathway. Here's the last little bit of this. Nestlé Purina, Nestlé Purina repeated this study 3 years later, this time in cats, substituting corn for protein-rich ingredients. They had similar results where both groups lost similar amounts of weight in the same time. The only difference was that the cats on the higher protein diet lost more fat and less lean muscle mass than the higher carbohydrate group on the light dry food.

So just give us a little resume of that.

Which company did that?

Oh, sorry, did you miss that? Sorry, that was Nestlé Purina did that study. Conor, just give us a little resume of that because the short of it is that the animals on the higher protein diets, dogs and cats, carnivores, the dogs on the higher protein diets could eat more of the food and yet lost, let's say, similar amounts of weight. Yeah, similar in the dogs, they actually lost a bit more weight. But the most crucial aspect is the weight that the dogs were losing was body fat. So the other animals who are just being on these high carbohydrate nutritionally defunct diets were losing all sorts of weight, lean muscle mass and fat, because we just look at a dog and go by the weight and you go, no. And have you ever seen the weight of a lean pug and like a lean English bulldog? And it's like these dogs weigh like Dudley weighs a ton. And but he looks really lean. So just having a less lean muscle mass and fat anyway. The point was they have these results, they know the light diets don't work, they know it's not a good way, but it's a cheap way of dieting the dog because 15% plant fiber, you know, indigestible plant fiber is a great way to, for dogs locked in a cage to lose weight in tiny studies produced by pet food companies. When anybody else does these studies, it's a ridiculous way of doing it. So that was it on obesity. They have these results and they still don't push this information out to the conventional vets who are blaming people for feeding too much dry food. Give me a break.

Yeah, but that's what they always— that's what they do with people as well, don't they? They blame it. They say you're obese because you haven't got any willpower and you don't do enough exercise. Yes, completely deflecting the fact that they're eating an inappropriate diet with, with too high carbs because they don't know any different. They're eating pasta because they've been told to eat carbs.

Like, we all just suddenly lost the run of ourselves in the '70s. Up until that point, everybody was nailing their calorific intake because they knew about calories 40s and 50s. So like one glass of wine extra puts on something like 30 or 40 pounds in a year if that's what they were supposed to be doing. It's ridiculous. A cold night, I'm going to have slightly less food or more food tomorrow. Give me a break. We all got stupid in the '70s and it's continually more stupid every decade.

It followed the '60s. That's what it was. So, but the thing is, those, those arguments about sugar versus fat fats. When you look at all of the books we've been reading and promoting to the you guys out there, you know, following the book club stuff, you know, they've been discussing this for 150 years. Yeah, you know, all of the, yeah, all of the Banting stuff all the way forwards. And there's been arguments about how, you know, should it be carbs, should it be fats, what's the right way to deal with this? And actually, the interesting thing is, as you said, Conor, In '77, the Americans actually came up with a policy to get rid of their grain, and that's when they actually went to Congress and actually promoted the cereals really being pushed out as a way of feeding the masses.

Because low fat, that means '77, that's when the guidelines, the American guidelines came out.

83, the UK followed suit and produced something similar.

Yeah, you can see that, you can see the graph starts in '77, so obesity goes like this and then in '77 it starts climbing.

And guess what, right, when did the NRC get together and produce AFCO for the American feeds? And then when did EFSA follow on? You know, it's really interesting how some of these things almost together. So, uh, I think that with me, and I'll get the year.

Hang on there a second.

But you'll find it's pretty close.

Yeah, it is close. When the NRC handed things over to AFCO— NRC was formed in the '70s, the pet food section of that— and then they handed over to AFCO within about maybe 6, 8 years. Was it '86 or something when they handed over to AFCO? They said, oh, this is too much of a spicy meatball for us. But that's interesting. That was— was that all just one big And wouldn't you think that, oh, maybe—

and a lot of them took all of their information from human nutrition and just piled it into the dogs.

Yeah, because our obesity epidemic and the canine obesity epidemic mirror each other in a graph. It's like they took off at the same time. Yeah, that was interesting, you know. Bloody hell, it's just rocking.

Yeah, and diabetes came, it follows the diabetes.

Yeah, diabetes were awful. It's still quite low in the dog population, which is kind of interesting. How come there isn't so much type 2 diabetes out there?

Whether it's diagnosed as well. Okay, there'll be a lot of low-grade stuff which is all about chronic inflammation. And yeah, this is where the pancreatitis comes back in as well. You know, these sugars causing chronic inflammation, we talked about it back in the pancreatitis video, not just about the fats being an influence on that, but actually that it's the chronic inflammatory diseases that start to come in here and the immune-mediated diseases that reflect on that. And that's something that we've got to understand. You know, some of these sugars, if you've got lots of sugars floating around the system, instead of you having nice supple lipid layers to the outer layers of those cells, they start to stiffen up and they get these complex sort of crystalline structures on the outside, which means that those are more readily recognized by your inflammatory cells as foreign, as not right. And they try and take them out. So you're chronically, so that's long-term, constantly just stimulating your immune system and the inflammation that comes from that. And that has consequences for a whole range of diseases. Nick's talked about all of the issues around your circulation. You've talked about all of the stuff around pancreatitis. You've talked about diabetes. So many of these are all down to inflammation. And one of the big ones that I want to just put in at the end here is very much about cancer, which is also a result we see from chronic inflammatory disease in many cases. You know, mast cell tumors in chronic inflamed skins is just a classic, but it's across the board. But also they know, you know, these companies produce diets that are low in carbohydrate, high in fats. You know, Hill's actually produced a diet for cancer called ND.

ND-based.

Never heard this.

So that was all based around the fact that they know that cancer cells thrive more on high sugars within your bloodstream. So if you can reduce those sugars and go to ketosis rather than— it's not necessarily that you are causing cancer, but you are helping the cancers to grow more rapidly if there's high sugar. So if you reduce that, you're starving the cancer. So this is why, guys, when we speak to you about cancer diets, you know, it's actually better to look at some of the not just the high antioxidant diets, but things which will put you into ketosis. And there's a number of ways. And we named, you know, the Keto Pet Sanctuary that help, you know, you do that. You know, they're a Facebook group to go and have a look at. But there's lots of books out there to look at how you can promote that. And it's all about the fats, not just about protein. Either. Protein in high, high quantities can actually be reverse engineered into producing sugars.

Yes. Okay.

It's about the fat levels. And this is why Nick's thing of the first group that he mentioned where they had unrestricted access to fats, you know, still lost weight because they can go into ketosis. It sort of self-regulates and it seems to be recurrent across the human sphere that they're seeing this. And it happens to to also work for our dogs.

I found that ND product actually, and I can't find it for sale online, which is interesting. It's all out of stock. But here's the ingredients.

What a surprise. Wait, wait, yeah, having a few problems with their stocking issues.

Here's the— it's a wet food only that I can find, and the ingredients here are, listen to this, beef, pork liver, ground rice, boo, fish oil, chicken protein hydroxylate, and then a whole lot of stuff to keep them very pronounced. But that's nearly a great raw dog food there. Beef, pork liver, fish oil, chicken, and then a little bit of ground rice. Now you're getting close to the Anza Hills. You know, that's very interesting, lads. I've never seen that product before.

Yeah, that's been around for quite some time, but it's something that we based a lot of the approaches, you know, I did for— well, this is why just, you know, in cancer there is no two ways about it. I would switch them to a ketogenic diet, you know, to look at, you know, higher fats within their foods.

That's interesting. I have a couple of slides here on the cancer bit, and here's why cancer fuels, or why sugar fuels cancer. I'm not saying cause, but fuels it. First of all, 500 out of 100,000 Americans are diagnosed with cancer each year. 5,300 American dogs out of 100,000 dogs are diagnosed with cancer each year. 10 times the level of cancer in dogs than humans. I mean, Mother Nature made a serious mistake with these animals, didn't she? And so here's the thing, cancer cells use 10 to 20 times the glucose of normal cells. They are, they love a bit of glucose. Okay, well, it's actually the insulin that they have, isn't that right? Is that the cancer cells are covered in insulin receptors because that's for growth, is not the way it works?

Yeah, yeah.

And the way they scan, so this PET scan that they do is they feed radioactive 7-Up to cancer patients and then they make—

Iron Brew.

Iron Brew, isn't it? Yeah, that's correct. It depends on where you're coming from. It's a red lemonade over here. So, so they radioactive tag that and then they watch where all the sugar goes and the cancer cells get to gobbling because they eat it 10 to 20 times more than the regular cells and it glows. So when you scan the body, you see where the tumor cells are. So that just shows they love a bit of carbs. They actually love insulin because insulin helps them grow in their out-of-control manner. So that's the sugar role in that. I understand that in the whole cancer thing. So just 100 grams of sugar reduces phagocytosis for 5 hours. So just 100 grams of sugar reduces your ability to go around eating the baddies, your immune system to go around fighting the baddies for 5 hours. So it's just crazy. I had a few more little things like that, but that was kind of the background to it.

So therefore the high-carb diet is immunosuppressive.

That's correct. For 5 hours, just 100 grams.

Viruses and bacteria and autoimmune disease.

2 pieces of bread, your immune system stops working for 5 hours.

So yeah, you know, Sue just asked about that whole where does autoimmune disease come into this? Well, this is all about that pro-inflammatory response to cells which are made to look abnormal but are still your own cells. So your own immune system starts to recognize them as foreign, and that's when you'll get that cross-reaction. So that's where you're into the autoimmune diseases. So that's why you want to reduce that.

That's crazy.

Also, over-vaccination. I'm not an anti-vaxxer for dogs per se, but we— I think that many dogs get a vaccine that they don't need when you can just do a titer test to check instead. I think that's a much more responsible way of approaching medicine. Why give a medicine when you don't need it?

You know, what would the cancer link be there, Nick?

With, with vaccine? Yeah, I think that that is going into areas that we don't really want to go into.

Yeah, yeah, I suppose. Okay, yeah, the lumps that you mentioned, Brendan, at the site, I was thinking of the injection site, was one of, it was one of the things. Yeah, so what's the story with mast cell tumors briefly? Like, why, why are they so plentiful, uh, Why is that? Is there a particular carb thing or are any, any and all tumors?

It's just mast cells you can see on the skin surface.

That's the thing.

You know, people start to— yeah, it's one of those tumors that people particularly get alarmed about because some of the nastier ones, yeah, they do all sorts of weird and wonderful things, a little bit like squamous cell carcinomas can, you know, you know, and melanomas. And people will often mistake the two, you know, those three of, you know, very similar issues.

So I will say to people though, that if you have got a dog with cancer, please, please, please go to the Keto Pet Sanctuary website. There's a lot of really great information there.

Really?

Yeah. And they have recipes.

Yeah, actually, I was just going to say that. Yeah. And that's a great company. They take, you know, end of life or, you know, dogs that are faced looking at a death, a PTS kind of diagnosis in pounds. They take them out and they rescue them and feed them these diets. And the advice, the money that the company makes, the huge majority of it goes back to charity to rescuing these dogs. What a brilliant— so they're the boss of kind of raw feeding, but their dietary advice is the same as all of ours, or we get our cues from them, whatever. It's that they promote fresh, real food ingredients, high fat, zero carb, high fat, low protein, zero carb. But the problem is, as you jack up the fat in the dog's diet, he has less of the stuff that offers all the nutrition. Okay, fat offers nutrition as well, so I'm being very kind of loose-handed here. But those diets do need to be tailored quite specifically by somebody that knows what they're talking about. You need to be holding the hand of a vet that has studied nutrition. There's no two ways about it because you need the conventional side of things to protect your dog, and you need the actual diet to be tailored properly, and you need to do your vitamins and minerals checks all the time, vitamin and minerals checks, find out where you are because everything that you're going to be doing is going to be messing with those levels.

Remember, you know, some of the great sources of fat fats, you know, the livers, the kidneys, the organs, you know, great levels of fat to be distributed in those diets as well within the organs, which contain loads of those nutrients.

And we humans should be eating more organ meat. Yes, yeah, yeah. I went out for lunch the other day and deliberately had liver pâté as a starter, and then I steak and kidney suet. How cool is that?

Yeah, not bad.

It's gonna be liver and kidney with suet dumplings on top, you see. I was talking to one of the guys on Facebook, one of our supporters, who was reminiscing about the, the good old days of what we used to get given up north for proper food. Yeah, we were saying, yeah, that's when we made dumplings out of suet.

Yeah, and Shanahan is saying exactly this: we should go back to traditional ways of cooking and traditional eating.

Yeah, she makes, she makes a very, uh, convincing argument when you listen to her. Um, I'm actually, I actually have stopped listening to the vegetable oils chapter as again that sort of stuff ruins my walks because I'm stopping and trying to take notes on my phone.

And it's about your tea tonight, Connor.

I have an order from this takeaway before everybody else because these lads already know the story, but I have an order from this takeaway, uh, ages. And I just rang them and said, I was caught in the hop, I forgot to order the food, and Elaine was going mad, and it's not gonna be here for 6. So who cares if it's not 6, you know? So I ordered the food. What did I order last time? Goes, I don't know, just give us that again. So I essentially bought food for 4 people, and the bill came to like €60. I was fuming at myself. So then the food came, and there was vegetable spring rolls there. I haven't seen them in a while. And I was like, oh, lovely, vegetable spring rolls, lovely. And as I take a delicious bite of these vegetable spring rolls, all I could hear was Catherine Shanahan's voice It's actually somebody else is reading the book.

It's—

and I'm not mad in a better voice, actually. But, uh, vegetable oil, boiled, reboiled vegetable oil, lads, is just pure, uh, death on a plate. Yeah, it's just the worst. It's just the worst thing you could be eating. I mean, we always knew it was bad, so you save your kind of chip eating to the rarities, don't you? And you know, when you eat crisps, it's like, I shouldn't eat too much of this too often. But anyway, as I'm eating this delicious spring roll, I notice I'm dipping it into the sweet and sour sauce, which is just pure sugar. And I'm about to do this talk as this nutritionist fella on carbohydrates, and I am eating the carbohydrate meal.

This is AA, everybody. This is our confessions about our addictions.

Yeah.

And you made a good point, Nick, actually, because I was trying to say to people, like, you know, at least this is real life. This stuff is hard to avoid.

Yeah.

As well as— as much as you need to get off the, the screaming gravy train that is a carb addiction, which I have a sweet tooth, you know, I know I'm not in perfect shape here. I'm locked in with COVID I've got a baby, and I've just— my diet has been poor and my exercise is going out the window, and I know where I am. But even when I get off that, the problem is staying off that train because like cigarettes, you know, don't have a cigarette and your addiction will decrease. But it's not like people are just stuffing cigarettes in your water and into your little bar. And it's like, well, sugar is everywhere. It's in your pasta sauce. It's like it's virtually rice and spaghetti. Like those, it is so easy to cause that little bit of dysbiosis where the gut flora goes, now would you get me a little bit more sugar? And then that's it. That's all I want.

And then absolutely, it is a drug.

It is a drug and it operates— it doesn't kick off the same parts of your brain. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you get the same kick out of it.

Cocaine-addicted rats will choose sugar water over cocaine-laced water. Did you know that?

Whoa.

Yeah, we'll share that study actually on Facebook later because that's a real Friday night.

If you're on the road, avoiding sugar and vegetable oil is nigh on impossible. You go to any restaurant and unless you're going to the Ivy or something, where they will probably give you real food and they'll cook in butter and things like this, it's very, very difficult to avoid vegetable oil and sugar.

And, you know, I just want to give a few minutes, just a little bit of hope. We've got a load of guys, uh, making a comment about they don't eat meat, they're vegetarian and everything else. Guys, we're not ditching vegetarianism. What we're trying to say is that there are levels of processing of oils which causes a problem. That's what the guys are talking about with vegetable oils. It's the ones that are processed in order to form them, usually a heat process for the majority of them. And actually, you know, there are things like olive oils that have loads of the polyphenols, which are the antioxidants in them. And if they're just mechanically cold pressed, that antioxidant keeps that oil. So buy it small, use it quickly. Don't store it open. Tip: keep it in the fridge. And it's great to use. It's only slightly more expensive than using oils, and it's great to use in those.

Really good for your microbiome, loves it. So the good oils are butter and ghee, you know, the Indian stuff, the, the rarefied butter. So butter, ghee, olive oil, and peanut oil— those are the, those are the goodies. And definitely, we're not saying don't, don't be veggie, It's just if you eat meat, then eat more organs. If you're veggie, try and avoid vegetable oils. It's because the vegetables that they come from are fantastic and the seeds that they come from, it's when they are processed, they oxidize and they turn toxic.

Ultra-processed, like everything, like your pet food. I'm a vegetarian, right? And I would never have thought about going back to meat. And I've read the diet books and I know I'm making a few sacrifices. I'm probably be not as fit as I could be, perhaps because I'm not doing as well as I should, whatever about all that. But listening to Catherine Shanahan's book has made me think I am going to go back down to Wicklow to the convent there where they have their own chickens running around and they kind of kill them in front of you and stuff. And I'm thinking about going back to a chicken a month or a chicken every, you know, every couple of weeks for the sake of Holly. Because when I think about it, my joints are crap. So knock me out of my football when I was 30, I had my first knee operation, then bang, bang, bang, the same knee 3 times. My left knee is in bits and I've got— now I've got a bit of arthritis in my right ankle. And I just thought, oh, that's what happens, people, you know. But actually, as Catherine Shannon highlights, it's kind of like when you look at a vegetarian diet, I have cut out all the things I'm telling people to feed dogs. They need the building blocks for those joints. They need glucosamine, chondroitin, all that. But they also need collagen. They also need glucagon, glutathione, all the stuff that's in bones that we leach out for broth. And I'm saying puppies have to eat this to build their joints. And now I'm looking at my two kids and I'm going, what building blocks am I giving those kids to form solid joints? Where am I getting collagen from in the plant kingdom? I, I can't believe this oversight is only striking me now from reading this book.

So now I'm thinking, oh, bloody hell, I've already apologized to my 19 and 21-year-old for the transgressions that I made. That's why I gave you the book, Conor, just so you could learn from my mistakes early on. It's interesting.

Look, Guys, it's 19:45. I just want to say, we didn't say at the start because we didn't thank our, uh, first of all, patrons. Guys, thanks so much for all the help on, uh, patreon.com. That's really, really helping us get this stuff together. So hopefully it's looking a bit more coherent to you guys because that's what we do to prep for this on Fridays. So, uh, that's patreon.com/rawpetmedics. And, uh, you know, we popped up an article there after the show last week because so many people were talking about what's the difference between kibble, grain-free, dehydrated, and all, and air-dried. So we just pop up an article that goes to the patrons. It's a little tiny reward on top of the fact we do this great show for you 4 and a half times a month. And listen, guys, if you can afford a price of a cup of coffee a month for us, we deeply appreciate it. Really, really helps. If you can't, you're perfectly welcome to continue on watching. We want the crowd. But if you can go to Patreon and you can afford that price of a cup of coffee each month, it really, really helps because our numbers are really building now. And secondly, you've got 3 days left at paleoridge.co.uk and have given us this coupon to use in Paleo Ridge's store. The coupon is RAWPETMEDICS. That's going to get you £5 off any of your orders. You've got about 3 days left to use that. So if you're a Paleo Ridge customer or you're thinking about doing this, now's a very good time to get kind of free delivery on your first order type bonuses and use your coupon. So you could be getting kind of a very, very cheap hamper delivered to your door I'd recommend that just as, just, um, you know, why not? Uh, thanks to Paleo Ridge for the sponsors for the last couple of months. They've been really good to us. And thanks to the patrons, lads.

Um, oh, we're thinking of things for next week. There's loads of people asking in the comments about good fats, bad fats. Oh yeah, do that for next week.

Oh yes, I love that.

Yes.

Yeah. And should we do Tuesday simply because we're all coming out of— oh yeah, and the Fridays are going to get booked.

Yeah, we've had lots of comments from you guys. Thanks for all of your feedback. Lots of you guys that can't necessarily make it on a Friday night because you're all coming out of lockdown, you're all wanting to go away, do things at the weekend, be human beings. Yeah, so we're gonna move it to Tuesday. Don't worry, you can always watch us on a Friday, um, that's your choice. We will still be answering your comments and join us on Patreon and join in the fun there. Somebody's asked for the book name again and I'm gonna just say that is on both both Patreon and the Facebook page, so you can have a look at those so that you can go ahead and read some of those excerpts.

So we jump to Tuesday with— let's move away from it. Good fats, bad fats, is that what we're doing on Tuesday? That's going to be cool. Very good. And another one we've got to get to at some stage, guys, which is really annoying me because it keeps— I see it everywhere now, is, uh, Bren, at some stage, and Nick, uh, you're gonna have to convince me about fermented veggies and teach me a little bit about that because that's subject that I have kind of stayed away from a little bit.

Oh guys, you know, for all of those vegetarians out there, you know, remember, you know, there's ways to reduce the sugar in those foods. One, fermented. So fermented bean curds, fermented, you know, you've got fermented kimchi and all of those sort of things.

It's lovely.

Also sprout. If you sprout the grains before you then make breads out of them, that can massively change the profile of that bread. You know, you're talking about where it's— how it's metabolized, how it's released, and just it massively changes the sugar release from those grains.

Save it for a plant and veg talk, Brent.

Yeah, so there's lots of stuff out there, you know, please, we're not anti-vegetarian at all.

No, at all. We put up with you, Conor, for goodness' sake.

There's another one, organotherapy, just talking about organ meats. I mean, God, just really, if we got to the bottom of every organ, we just look at the one or two organs so much, but we could really dig in there.

Some Q&A, so we should do a Q&A every month, I think.

Do a Q&A as well.

What we'll do is on Patreon we'll put some of those forward. We'll do good fats, bad fats on Tuesday, and then we're going to put a list up on Patreon for people to choose from, from those things from maybe bloat through to fermented veg, fermented veg, and then organs. Organs, that they're cool ones to choose from. So people can put a vote in and then we can go from there.

That's great, that sounds amazing. Amazing, amazing.

Code, guys, it's going across the screen. Use it, it's going to be gone soon.

3 days.

All of the rest of you, it has been a pleasure on a Friday night. We are loving it, loving the attention, and unlike Nick who's somewhere else in the shed.

No, I'm actually doing proper work and I'm going to have a ribeye made, cooked by Gregory Lovely. Very nice. Benefit Natural.

Very good. Right, lads, I'm going to declare that on every article that you write.

You know that, don't you?

You are?

Say again.

Oh, I just declared it on every article you write. I was given a meal by—

Yeah, yeah. I was in the Mirror this week talking about dehydration. How about that? The— not— oh yeah, mirror, mirror on the wall. I was in the Daily Mirror So check that out. It's a very simple article.

I was going to make back on your comment, but I resisted.

Yeah, dead print, then.

You see what I have to put up with, guys.

Anyway, I have to dash. I have some little kiddies to put to bed here.

Indeed. Yeah, pleasure as always.

Thank you, guys.

Great for your audience.