Infidelity Recovery Workbook to Rebuild the Coupleship with Dr. Monique Thompson

And for your listeners, that therapeutic alliance, that working alliance is critical in your work with anybody, coach or therapist alike. You have to have some kind of working alliance. And that basically means that I trust you, you trust me, and we can work together. We can use whatever we need to do our work. We already had a really strong bond and this comes up and I just literally said, well, we're here now. We're here now. We may as well keep going. And it was beautiful work. It worked out. I learned a lot about setting aside my bias, my bias, my bias, and my curiosity opened up, right?

Good.

Curiosity opened up. So then that worked. That worked out great.

Partner betrayal is disorienting, heartbreaking, and results in absolute confusion for the betrayed partner. You worry that nothing in your life was real and you Fear that you will never be able to trust your spouse or yourself again. Well, welcome to the Rebuilding Trust Podcast with Carol the Coach. I'm Carol Jurgensen Sheets, aka Carol the Coach. And what I can promise is that when you listen to my podcast, you'll begin to believe that there is hope. We will be hearing from experts all over the world who specialize in problematic sexual behavior, sex addiction, and infidelity. Together, we will be asking them the hard questions about how you both can rebuild safety Find strength, grieve and mourn what you had, what you never had, and what you fear you will never find again. The truth is that rebuilding trust is possible, and I am going to show you the steps to working together to build a whole new marriage based on the honesty, authenticity, and transparency that your marriage deserves. Rebuilding Trust with Carol the Coach.

You know, today I feel like we're really— you're getting to hear somebody who has an amazing background, and I can't believe I don't know her. She's written workbooks. You know, I'm the queen of workbooks. She's done that. She's a coach. She's a PhD. She has made it her mission to work within trauma, partner betrayal, sexual compulsion, compulsive sexual problematic behavior. I mean, you guys are in for a treat. So I want to introduce Dr. Monique Thompson, who is EMDR trained, trauma-informed. You're a life coach, so you can work anywhere in the world. And welcome to Rebuilding Trust. This is our podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad that we found our way across the worlds of the internet to each other. We have a lot in common, so I'm glad to meet you today too.

Absolutely. And, and how did you get into this field?

Well, so, um, as you know, we have to go through enormous amounts of training to even get licensed. And at the beginning, I really wanted to make sure, um, that I was the best that I could possibly be. And my thought was to choose a pathway that involved a lot of rigor. So I did my internship in a hospital setting.

Mm-hmm.

It just forces you to be quick and to be accurate. I wanted that. And I did a lot of work in the forensic side of things. So I worked with adult male sex offenders and with adults on adult probation and parole. And in the middle of my work with adult male sex offenders, which as you know from your body of work, it, on the one hand, it is complex. On the other hand, the person that you are, the professional, you just have to just clock in and make a commitment to deep learning and constant practice. You just have to accept that that is the way that world is. And at one point I was so exhausted, the person training me, I was like, I'd say, he said, yes, you're right. If you can do this, you can do anything, which was somewhat true for anything you can really readily find in the DSM, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. That's what we use for our— for disorders, identification of disorders. But when I found myself working with couples, I recognized that while I had stamina and I was ready academically, clinically speaking, This particular area is a unique beast and it defies all odds. One, there's no predictability really to it. I don't know if a couple is going to recover and stay together or if the recovery involves a peaceful separation. I can never tell that part of it. I have appreciated over the years that there's been more trauma-informed approaches available. I came into the field right at the cusp of EMDR even being discovered and then going through the clinical trials so that we could even use it and the training becoming all of that. Um, polyvagal theory was not even— was not even a theory. Um, just there are a lot of different trauma-informed aspects of my work now that I incorporate that I wish I'd had So many years ago. So I've been practicing 25 years in May. Um, but getting here, my pathway was, um, and I'll be very transparent with your audience, somewhat also kind of centered in my faith. Um, my Master of Counseling is from Dallas Baptist University. I wanted to understand if and how faith can be integrated into my work.

Mm-hmm.

So the night before my LPC exam, I my then boyfriend, now husband, we were supposed to go out to kind of like blow off some steam. And I called him and said, I cannot meet up with you. He was already where we were supposed to meet up. I cannot meet up with you. I just need some quiet time with God and I'll see you tomorrow. So—

Right.

I just sat in my little living room. The sun was setting. I had my music playing, my little gospel music. I had my little candles lit and I just laid on the floor and I asked God, just make me exactly as you need me to be to do whatever work you need with the people you need me to see. Let me do whatever I do so that you are happy with me. And that was my prayer. And he has been with me this whole time. And I do use that when I'm invited with people. I use my faith approaches when I'm invited, but I respect everybody's walk of faith entirely. And because, like you said, with coaching, I've seen people from Everywhere. Every— literally every continent. Um, but it helps me to, as a therapist, stay humble about everything I'm experiencing and seeing, stay open to learning. Um, I would say for anybody working with the scope of partner, um, what over time I— the Infidelity Workbook is titled Infidelity Workbook, but how we define infidelity for me has has emerged over time to non-consent, meaning—

Yeah.

Just, you know, if your partner would not have consented, then we need to count it. And it has widened so much, heavily due to accessibility. There are things that people can access now that they literally could not access when I even first started my practice. There are ways to not be faithful to your spouse that people would not have known to say, I would rather you not do that. Even just 15 years ago, especially now with chatbots and AI where you can have an entire sexual universe that is non-human entirely, but you're interacting and engaging with this entity as if it is a partner. And I can easily see how someone's human partner might at first think, I don't have a problem with it, but then notice, I think I do have a problem with it.

Yeah.

And so now I've emerged into defining infidelity as non-consent.

Yes, and I agree with you 100%. It is evolving so quickly. And you know, I trained under Patrick Carnes, who had the first—

Yes, I loved his work. Yes.

Yes. Well, and you know, he wrote the Green Book, which is in the 12-step program, and—

A Gentle Path Through the 12 Steps. Yeah, I use that so much. Yes.

Yeah, so I've got some questions for you because obviously a friend of yours reached out to me after seeing my podcast and he said, I think Dr. Monique would be a great fit. And, you know, I looked at your bio, I looked at what you've done, and it, it is so admirable of you to have devoted part of your career to this.

Yes.

So I want our listeners to hear now, um, why it's so important for both of them.

Yes, yes.

To work with each other, but also to work on themselves.

Yes.

To stabilize that central nervous system and to be the best person they can be, even though they're both in trauma.

Both.

Yeah.

Both. And it is a common misunderstanding that the partner who was betrayed is the person hurting, when in fact both partners are in excruciating pain.

Mm-hmm.

And both need both their individual nervous systems cooled down, regulated, deactivated, um, and their lives together create kind of a third organism that also needs to be tended to and taken care of. But the thing is, even on like, what do we know now? So now we even know about epigenetics, especially if there has been any child born to this family, it raises the bar even more on the importance of you both— Quelling your nervous system and coping in a healthy way, because even without your intention, you are passing forward genetic markers to the next generation. So the more we know, the more it just raises the importance. Every new scientific discovery just raises the importance of both partners seeking help, getting yourself together, and not falling into Some of the, you know, some common myths like, you know, time heals all wounds. It 100% does not.

Uh-huh.

Time just passes. That's all time does is pass. It doesn't heal anything. Or that just accountability, if I just say I'm sorry and say I'm taking ownership and responsibility, that is not enough. Healing means that if we were to take a picture of your brain we would see the trauma resolved. If we were to check your blood pressure, we would see that you're fine. We would— but there are biological measures to see, are you actually okay? And then on the cognitive side of this, do you have some reasonable expectations of yourself?

Yeah. You know, you mentioned the epigenetics, and for our listening audience, what we are seeing is that these traits do get passed on and have been passed on by the generations before us. And so it really is important for each person to take really good care of themselves, have a self-compassion, and find people who can work with trauma so that you don't pass this on to your children and to your children's children, right?

Well, who even believes it is a trauma? So there's a whole, you know, a discussion there about Um, the kind of approaches that different counselors take to dealing with this, that I approach it as if it is for both partners a trauma that we need to actually treat, heal, and that the working through requires the brain to be calm, right? Requires the nervous system to be calm. But everyone isn't quite on that same page of it being trauma. And even sometimes I notice the comments that I'll see.

Mm-hmm.

social media posts from time to time, people still are, are kind of a little legalistic in their approach to it, wanting someone to be wrong and someone to be the victim and for someone to be, you know. So that approach, while it has its place in amends, Mm-hmm. it is not the center of what we're doing, um, and it doesn't guarantee Reconciliation. Like, I work with a lot of couples. I mean, I'm kind of like you, I've been doing it for a long time, so you end up with like hundreds, then thousands of hours of work with couples, and you start to see some patterns emerge. And one of them is people wanting it to, first of all, have never happened, and then secondly, for there to be some kind of, um, I call it a Disney promise, that you will never hurt me again. Or for the person to say, oh, I will never hurt you. Again, and the pressure to kind of put yourself in a column of yes or no, these binary approaches to it, it doesn't work.

Right. Especially if you're working with problematic sexual behavior, which infidelity is, but it's different than that compulsivity that we used to call sex addiction. That's one of the hardest addictions to manage and monitor. And so you don't want to have false promises, but you also as a couple have to have defined expectations. And you use that word intentions, right?

Yes.

One of the first things I do in my work, in the first chapter of all my books, is I say, what is your intention for this work today? And it can change. And what is your intention for the marriage? And they— couples really appreciate Being asked that even though they don't know, you know?

Right. This flowing authenticity. Well, what is my answer, my most honest answer right now? And keeping a door open for thought, for you to evolve, for you to change your mind, and to come back to the conversation with your most authentic answer in the moment we're living in right now. Especially sometimes I notice people will want to come to therapy Saying we're here to work things out. You might change your mind, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Or to say, I'm done, it's over, I filed for divorce. You might change your mind. How do we know? Well, because people do all the time. And I say this repeatedly, especially when I get a fresh new couple. The people that you're admiring their marriages and their relationships went somewhere, kicked their shoes off, read the books, did the workbooks, talked to— they worked hard. They worked really, really hard.

Mm-hmm.

For you to watch this swan dance of their relationship, there was a lot of hard work behind the scenes. And they at some point had to stomach, I do not control this other free will human being. I do not control it. Even if you intellectually get that, emotionally digesting it Even spiritually digesting it is another matter entirely. And there's a grieving process that I have noticed that is a necessary grieving process. The loss of the prior expectations, the loss of the illusion of what this would be like. There's a grieving process. And those things, all those things come into every relationship when there's been infidelity. And I don't find it avoidable on the one hand. On the other hand, I do find many people wanting to avoid it, but I don't find it avoidable.

Well, and I, again, I come from the APSATS model and the ITAP model. ITAP works with sex addiction and partner betrayal, and APSATS primarily works with partner betrayal. And we know when this occurs, there is that safety and stabilization that we as professionals work towards. And then that second phase, although it is not linear, is that grief, grief stage where they really have to be encouraged to grieve. And that's both parties.

Mm-hmm.

Because once the betrayer comes out of the fog of the betrayal, The betrayer is wondering, what in the heck I did? So I want to pick your brain for a second. Okay? Okay. Because you had said, um, that you believe cultural expectations impact how both partners, um, process trauma and make decisions. So will you say a little bit more about that? I'm always looking at cultural diversity.

Yes. So Um, some of this emerged from, um, a list that I used to have when I first started my practice of things I was not going to do. Um, you can— and, and to be fair, you're trained to say, well, what is it that you're— that you enjoy? Well, you know, what is your niche? Well, coming into the field, I'm like, well, I don't want to do these certain kinds of, um, of, of groups. One of them being because I was coming from a faith lens, I didn't want to do pagan worshipers. I did not want to do people who lived a quote unquote lifestyle. Okay, so fast forward what really happened. I don't have on my intake paperwork a little box though that says I'm doing these things. So it came out. It came out. This was years ago. Like I'm at 25. This was maybe year 2. I mean, early on someone comes in and all this stuff is going on, but we've already created a working alliance. And for your listeners, that therapeutic alliance, that working alliance is critical in your work with anybody, coach or therapist alike. You have to have some kind of working alliance. And that basically means that I trust you, you trust me, and we can work together. We can use whatever we need to do our work. We already had a really strong bond and this comes up and I just literally said, well, we're here now. We're here now. We may as well And it was beautiful work. It worked out. I learned a lot about setting aside my biases, and my curiosity opened up.

Good.

My curiosity opened up. So then that worked out great. Right after that case ended, I mean, literally a week or two later, people I'd worked with before have been coming back in. And at this time, I was a consultant at SMU Perkins School of Theology, so that we are clear. I had a lot of clergy coming into the practice, and some of them came back in. You know, people come in for maintenance, for just something happens, they come back in. And people just started to self-reveal all of this content that was going on. And I realized, oh, I need to be way— there's something about my presence I need to really lower something about me so people feel free to express whatever's going on because the culture around them before they come into the office, if I represent too heavily, then they may close up even with me.

Mm-hmm.

And so, for example, a church culture where you're not supposed to, you know, these rules, you're not supposed to do A, B, and C, you're not supposed to do D, E, and F. Well, if I too heavily represent that culture, then people might feel shut down. So I started working on that, right? Let me fast forward. Now I've seen— I jokingly say I think I have seen everybody, but you know, like I know as soon as I say that, um, this afternoon somebody will say, no, you have not, you know. Um, but I've seen, um, non-binary matched with, um, a very, you know, traditional conservative person. I could not make this up, you know, from another continent. I've had people from different continents trying to figure out how they're defining fidelity. Like, if we don't live together at all, do we have a marriage? And I've had— I've worked with people who define their marriage according to their terms, even though in their respective cultures it would be defined very differently.

differently.

Um, I've worked a lot with young people who are emerging into their own identities here, even on American soil, where their family culture is bringing them to therapy for me to fix them.

Uh-huh.

Um, and so let me ask you something. Go ahead.

Because you used the word non-binary. Yes. And tell our listening audience what that is.

Yes, yes, yes. Non-binary. So for example, some be— years ago we would say, what are you, male or female, right? Um, and then emerged the term transgender. What do you know? I'm male? No, I'm not male. I'm not female. I'm transgender. But then some people say, I am neither. I am non-binary. I am just me, basically. I'm just— I am me. Um, so, um, sometimes a non-binary person might use pronouns like they. versus she or he, whereas someone who identifies as female identifying might use a pronoun she or her. So sometimes for your listeners who are watching the changing of pronouns, um, it is more a reflection of a person saying, this is who I am and please identify me as such. But if I don't identify in one of those— binary meaning one or the other—

Mm-hmm.

Then I'm none. I'm non-binary. So I've worked with, um, couples where one's very traditional and one is— Yeah, you would think you wouldn't see that, but you do. You think you wouldn't see that, but you do. Um, I enjoy Helen Fisher's work on love, especially, um, because of how we have— we can be attracted to someone and trust someone, be attached and attracted, but still not have love. And sometimes in couples where there's been infidelity that can emerge. And what happens with culture often in those couples is how love was defined by their culture is what they were expecting. And they find that they actually are being loved according to the other person's culture. I'll give an easy example. In some cultures, there are arranged marriages. And I do have couples who were, um, Indian couples where there was an arranged marriage. And their definition of how they express and expected love It's very different from, for example, an Americanized couple that expected to explore and date and even have multiple sexual partners as a way of finding love. So sometimes the culture itself can create in the person's mind and expectation what it means to love and be loved.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I try my best to kind of— I call it a studio, the counseling room, a studio. Just keep the studio as clean as possible and have as much room or psychological space as possible. But it really comes from those early experiences as a therapist where I had my little list. And I'm forever grateful for the one client who came in and just tore up my list. And I— but I appreciate that my response was curiosity. And I've remained—

Right.

I'm naturally— but my response was curiosity. And a lot of humility. You have, I believe, you need a lot of humility to keep growing and learning in our field, especially when things like the new studies on how the brain works, like a lot of the images even of the brain, what's going on, you can see these things. You don't have to guess anymore or to know with certainty. Like your listeners may know, like certain words, the DSM-5-TR, we don't have the words that were in it before are gone, you know?

Right.

Because we've decided to redefine them. Staying humble to learning and growing is key, especially when it comes to culture and being open to what this person's culture is, is likely their truth they grew up with. But coming into their adult life, they may not themselves still align with that culture, and they may redefine it in their own adult life. But what if— what— how do you— how do you find authenticity in that? And being able to let people do their work without me Inserting their truth, you know.

Okay, and so clearly I, like you, believe that not all couples need to stay together, although that's what I promote if that's what they want. But if they don't, I want them to figure out a way to do it in integrity so that they're not hurting each other, especially because this is a field that has experienced lots and lots and lots of pain.

Yes.

So I want you to talk a little bit about, um, your background with, uh, you know, the parts program.

Okay.

And how you help people to understand, well, that was your protective part, and, you know, who else can you pull in instead as you begin to find more confidence in who you are?

Yeah, well, I combine— I have Internal Family Systems or parts work with EMDR, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.

Mm-hmm.

They marry well. And for practical purposes, sometimes it depends on when I get the couple. I consider it sort of a butterfly effect. Sometimes a couple saw someone or several other counselors or coaches or therapists or went to so many different things before they even got to me. Those couples are sometimes cooled down enough to do different kinds of work than a couple who just found out they are hot, you know, literally hot.

Mm-hmm.

And quite legitimately, we may be trying to prevent crime. I jokingly, but kind of not jokingly, say that, that sometimes the first part of the discovery is crisis counseling. Um, and engaging with the person.

Almost always.

Yes, yes.

You know?

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So for those, for those couples that are in that space, then, um, intensive sessions help. Um, I— you often cannot do a lot of education because you are quite literally, um, trying to get somebody to just calmed down enough to even have the session. I often do the longer appointment where I have the one-on-one and the joint the same day.

Uh-huh.

So that we can just, and the next appointment is the next day. Using a trauma-informed approach there is critical. So that parts work combined with the EMDR helps a great deal. I use, walking with a lot of my clients. And so typically not that first appointment, but walking helps.

Mm-hmm.

So the person going for a walk during the session, now you've got the bilateral stimulation, or for your listeners, we call it BLS, which just means left-right movement. But, you know, the brain-heavy benefit is they're walking at a stroll, not a workout pace, but just at a stroll. And that helps a great deal with Getting the nervous system regulated, getting the brain, you're getting a nice little decrease of stress just by being outside. And I think that—

So you walk with them?

I don't because, listen, Carol, I mean, I appreciate that technology is there and technically I could, but I don't have, I can't finesse that. I have tried. I cannot. I can't fit. So there are therapists that do that. I feel like they must be more tech savvy or younger than I am. I cannot— I can't do it all because even like we're talking, I have my notepad. I'm so old-fashioned. I still have paper.

I do too. I do too.

Yeah, I can't do it.

Well, you know, you said that and I love that admission. You remember that Francine Shapiro discovered EMDR when she was walking in a park?

Yes.

And then applied it to all of her patients. That's where I got it from.

I literally— I Working with these couples, you know, you got to quickly get people to— they have to calm down, you know. And really, I just, I said, this will probably— in my mind I said, this shouldn't— this should work, you know. So I just had— the first time I tried it, I had someone who was just so escalated. And I said, just let's just, you know, they had, you know, space to walk. Why don't you just walk? So as they walked, it was exactly what she experienced. they were deescalating. And I was like, this is nice, because they were just so agitated. The nervous system was in full activation level that I could not get them to connect with me and get— and I'm like, they're not going to connect.

Yeah.

We're not going to get anywhere, but we've got to get somewhere. We've got to get somewhere. And the walking helped. I can't figure out how to walk with people because I am a little over— I keep my notes here and sometimes I have like Venn diagram level notes where I'm drawing these, you know, so I can't figure out how to do that and walk, but I do have them walk. And sometimes I'm in their ear.

Sure.

Meaning they are switched off their video and I'm on audio with them. Sometimes they are on video and I can still see them, but I keep the pace at a stroll, not a workout. And if somebody wants to stop, then I use a lot of polyvagal theory. You know, I tend to pull my voice into kindergarten teacher voice. Slow down the pace of even my voice. We do a lot of 4-7-8 breathing, kind of really trying to get everything de-escalated. But the parts work is wonderful. It is wonderful. Getting somebody to create a meeting place for your parts. Let's see who's there. Will these parts really talk today? And I have noticed some patterns with the parts work.

Oh.

For the early on, the parts are Arguing. They are— it's a war zone. They're in there just going at it. Um, and it is telling as that world, that commit— that whatever that meeting place is, that universe the person creates for those parts, as that world becomes more peaceful, more calm, the parts are willing to take turns. A part is willing to step back.

Willing.

You know, to step back. You're not having to keep asking it to step back. Then the person is able to engage a little bit better. Um, a few sessions into where they're— and now, you know, you do the body scan at the end. How you feeling? You noticing you feel calm? I feel calm. Okay. Um, well, let's kind of check in. Let's see what's going on with those parts. If the parts are doing better with communicating internally with the person It does help. The challenge is the couples don't always do— they're not always pacing at the same pace, meaning one may be getting there and the other one may not even have shown up for their appointments. Just being real, they might not have shown up for their appointments. They're not physically present. Um, sometimes their guardedness is just up so high, the protectors are so present that they're It's difficult. So I usually work with whoever is there, and I sometimes refer the other partner to someone else because sometimes they don't have the psychological space with me to do it all in-house. So—

Yeah.

Locally, there's 2 other therapists that I'll send maybe one partner there. I keep one. Sometimes I keep both partners for the joint time, but send them individually someplace else. So it does work. And I've been that person for other people. I have coaches who've sent the people to me for the EMDR and the parts work, and they're working with the couple. So just to kind of— for your audience that's listening, it doesn't mean failure if your coach or your therapist wants to create a team for you where someone's doing some parts of the work and the coach is still doing the coaching.

Yeah.

Um, and you're individually going someplace, it is legitimately necessary, but the goal is peace. And for peace, we have to kind of all come to the table for peace, but not guarantee of relationship reconciliation. Peace is reasonable to expect, but it may not be peace together, it may be peace apart. And to get there, we may have to pull other people in. So that's the approach that I usually—

Yeah.

I usually take.

Yeah, whatever kind of calms that prefrontal cortex down and, and the amygdala. So now let me— because we've got about 10 minutes, and I want to, um, ask you what the trauma-informed markers are, uh, that tell a couple that they're able to move from stabilization to one of my favorite words, Yes.

All right, so, um, some are practical, um, some are very practical.

Are they in your workbook?

I think so, I think so. This is probably in the workbook because it's such a copy-paste thing I say outside. Are you sleeping? Seriously, are you sleeping well? Um, are, are both parties sleeping well? I genuinely mean that. Are you sleeping well? Um, how, how is, um, the conversation being handled? Meaning, are you using avoidance or are you using approach behavior? Um, approach behavior, those— that's a marker. Um, avoidance behavior, we need to do some more work. You do need a third party to help you. Um, but when you're naturally able to approach it, here's an easy little example. The partner, either one, Um, is in an, you know, is in an agitated state for seemingly no good reason. For seemingly no good reason, they're in an agitated state. Um, you're noticing that we haven't had sex in a couple of days, which is maybe unusual for this, for this couple. Um, take that, um, scenario. But then one of them says, hey, can we talk about this? And the other one says, you know, we really, we need to talk about this. Yeah. That's approach behavior.

Uh-huh.

Absolutely. Same thing happens. Hey, can we talk about this? Well, talk about what? What do you want to talk about? There's nothing to discuss. Okay, now we're using avoiding behavior.

Or defensive.

Defensive, yes. And so that would be, we're not headed toward reconciling. We actually not, we need to do work. So I'm looking for ability to repair. So, um, think Gottman. I like—

Yeah, repair and restore.

I like to see people get to Gottman. Um, and if I see that you're getting— in fact, I will say to somebody, if you're at the place where we can use Gottman, we are all— we're probably almost done with the necessity of our work. We could continue working if we wanted to, but if we've gotten to Gottman, we're probably ready to, you know, you can see—

I call that post- I call that post-traumatic growth. Yeah, I mean, they're right there in that place where they're willing to make a choice. Yes, to better their lives no matter how that looks.

Yes, choosing. Yes, an active choice. It's an active choice. Yes, exactly.

So tell me about your workbook. Give us the name of it.

Yes. Okay.

You got it in front of you.

You saw me lean back, so I would have had it in front of me, but I had the holidays and I cleared out everything to make it all pretty for the holidays.

All right, I get it.

So, but my, my little workshop is literally right, but it's the Infidelity Recovery Workbook for Couples available anywhere, also available on Amazon. Um, and, um, to get that book, you just can't, you can go to Amazon, my website. If people actually want to find me, it's Dr. Monique Thompson. I'm on Instagram, @dmoniquethompson, and people can access me. I have a lot of free materials because sometimes you just need to kind of browse and see what's going on. And I often encourage people, if you're thinking, if you're even thinking about getting help, get help. Trust that gut feeling. If you're even thinking about it, just go ahead and schedule, if not with me, with somebody. Just go ahead and get scheduled. The crux of getting better is choosing to heal.

No kidding. And that again is post-traumatic growth. And for our listening audience, uh, Dr. Monique Thompson and the— her book, her workbook is called Infidelity Recovery Workbook for Couples: Tools and Exercises to Rebuild Your Relationship. And I just want to go over that you can go to Dr. D-O-C-T-O-R moniquethompson.com to find out more about her. As you can see, this is a very knowledgeable woman who has put a lot of time and energy into providing those tools and exercises. And you really, you're the queen of trauma recovery. I can feel it, you know, that you, you can spot it, you see it, and you know what to do to help stabilize couples. And I love that. Now, give our listening audience one last piece of advice. You just did a beautiful job by telling them that they obviously, if they think they're ready to, then they are, and to just do it, kind of like the Nike commercial.

Yes. Yes, it's just last word is seek help early and often. It's actually something that you'll hear if you look at most marriage therapists, most men seek help early and often, number one. And number two, this is a practical piece of advice. It does not matter who schedules the appointment. It does not matter who arranges the scheduling of the appointment. What matters is showing up. Just show up for a while. You will just be showing up. And eventually it'll kind of get into a different rhythm. But for a little while, you just are scheduling an appointment with someone, someone, and showing up. And that is the work at the beginning.

And I'm sure you are very, very, very busy, but because she is a coach and because she wrote the book, yes, I would encourage you to show up at her website and see how you can contact her to set that up. Yes, right. So again, that's D-O-C-T-O-R, drmoniquethompson.com. And, um, it has been a pleasure. You know, it's always fun to meet people that I don't know. And you've not been in either of those organizations, APSATS or ITAP, have you?

No, I haven't. I haven't.

So you have just Done self-study all by your lonesome.

I, you know, I would like to say that, but that's not entirely true. Um, early in my career, I was seeking to be a registered sex offender treatment provider. Um, and the truth is I had a baby. I had my firstborn and I, I could not pursue. I could not get that balance again of the professional distance plus doing good work after I had my first girl. So that is really what happened. But I definitely, you know, this is the most fun thing is to get to meet colleagues across the waves like this, because as you know, once upon a time, you just had to wait for a conference to come to your town. I'm in a Metroplex environment, but even then you might not get to really connect and have conversations like this and really get to know each other. And this has been wonderful. I listen to your stuff all the time, just so you know, I'm low-key a fan. And it's been my pleasure and honor to actually get to be a part of your show for today.

Thank you. Oh, thank you so much. Well, our destiny is to meet again. Yes. So let's, let's keep doing this. Let's keep having these conversations on the podcast. Okay. Because I got a million more questions to ask you. A million.

Not a million and two. Why not two million?

Dr. Monique Thompson, you know, I just went to see a comedian. Monique Marvez this weekend. So, uh, I loved— I love the name.

Monique's around you. You got to make this happen.

Do you know what Monique means?

No, I did not. What does Monique mean?

Wisdom.

You are kidding.

I am not.

I— you know, I am about to be 55 and I did not know that. Okay, this is— I know we're done. At a very young age, my aunt asked me, you know, choose what do you want? What do you want your spiritual gift— what do you want your spiritual gift to be? What do you want to ask God for as your spiritual gift? And I got really, really quiet, and I sat with it, and I asked him to help me figure out what to ask him.

Oh.

I asked for wisdom.

Well, I am not surprised. So you just, uh, resonated that and manifested that all up. Yes, you think— thank Peter Wong for putting us together.

And yeah, I will thank Peter.

I look forward to chatting again soon. Thank you so much for coming to Rebuilding Trust Podcast and sharing your wisdom, Monique.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Carol. Take care. All right, you too.

Bye-bye.