Recovering from Infidelity: An Interview with Dr. Monique Thompson

Whoever thought we could find such a love at our age? Whoever thought we could dance on a— Welcome to Couples Therapy in 7 Words. I'm your co-host Judy Alexander, and I'm here with my husband, Dr. Bruce Chalmer.

Well, hello Judy.

Hello viewers and listeners.

What's Today's topic, Recovering from Infidelity, an interview with Dr. Monique Thompson.

We just had a blast.

Oh, she's amazing.

She is. And well, you, you'll see when you see the, the interview, folks. I, I commented it suddenly at one point. I said, you know, if I weren't like probably 20 years older than you, I think we were twins separated at birth.

I think so.

We just speak the same language and cite some of the same people. And there's differences there as well, but it was really just So much fun.

So much fun. And she's just so compassionate and passionate, which is, uh, it would— I, I, if I had to go to a therapist, I would go to Monique.

Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, highly recommended. So please check that out. We have some really exciting— at least I'm very excited.

Very exciting.

Some exciting news to share with our, our viewers and listeners. Um, so how should we do this?

Well, why don't you tell them?

Oh, just— what about—

Just come right out and tell them, honey.

So regular viewers and listeners of our podcast will know But I recently came out with a book called, and you can hold up the book.

I can. The Passion Paradox: When You Feel Miles Apart and Still Love Each Other, a workbook.

Yeah, now a funny thing happened as I was having finished that book, and suddenly I realized, you know, I could create a course, it turns out a video course, that would share with people the stuff that I do with folks in the first, certainly the first session and really several sessions worth, It's basically that book turned into a self-help course, a self-paced video course. And the thing about this course that I realized as I was making it, oh my God, if you do this— and I put this on my website— if you do this course, you will save yourself a bunch of therapy sessions and be much better equipped to handle it. And that includes, frankly, working with me. That's why I put it on my website, brucechalmer.com. I will repeat that a few times in the course of this. discussion. brucechelmer.com, all one word, brucechelmer.com. If you know my name, what's my name?

brucechelmer.com.

There you go. Well, my name is just Bruce Chelmer. You knew that. So, you can tell I'm excited about this. So, if you go to my website, you will see there's a link to this course and it has a free introductory session, a free introductory lesson that in fact you will learn from even that. So, just go do that even if you don't then Proceed to purchase the course. But this thing will save you an enormous amount. It's really, in my humble opinion, it's really good.

It's really good.

And so you will get a— also, if anybody is interested possibly in working with me, you will get a really good sense what would it be like to work with this dude by going and doing that free introductory lesson. So go and find that. And it is, again, even if you're interested in working with someone else or if you're currently working with someone else, Go and get a hold of that. I'm really excited about that. That's— by the way, what website should they go to for that one?

Uh, let me see, brucechalmers.com.

Brilliant. And let me throw in something else.

Okay.

What we have established for this course is a coupon code. The coupon code, of course, is CTIN7. CTIN7, right? You get that? Couples therapy in 7 words. Well, if you just do CTIN7, C-T-I-N-7. That's the coupon code.

Is it S-E-V-E-N or the number 7?

It's the number 7. Thank you for pointing that out.

I was wondering.

You know, if I'm smart, I'll go and put in one for that too in case people don't get that. But anyway, C-T-I-N-7 is the coupon code. And if you do that, you will get a 20% discount on this course. And these things frankly are not inexpensive. That's a rather substantial savings. So check it out. But of course, you can do the intro one for free. You won't have to put in a credit card or anything to do the one for free. You just go ahead and do that without having to pay for it. But if you then decide you want to go on and purchase it, you can get 20% off just by using that coupon code. What's that coupon code again?

CTN7.

And what's the website again? I keep forgetting.

BruceChalmer.com.

Bruce Chalmer. Thank you. BruceChalmer.com. There you are. I think we've beaten that one to death.

I think we have.

I think we should get on with Dr. Monique.

Let's get on with Dr. Monique, and we'll see you next time. On the other side.

Our guest today is Dr. Monique Thompson. Dr. Thompson is a psychotherapist with over 22 years of clinical experience and the author of the best-selling Infidelity Recovery Workbook for Couples. She has seen over 1,000 couples in her practice and specializes in helping partners move from disconnected timelines to a shared vision of recovery. Monique, welcome to Couples Therapy in 7 Words.

Thank you. I'm so glad to be here with you guys. This is a wonderful podcast.

Well, thank you. We're delighted to have you. We always like to start off with our guests by asking, how did you get into the work you do? Tell us something about your own journey.

Oh, oh, goodness. And I'm somewhat prepared for that question because I do get asked that question at the beginning of lots of podcast interviews. I do radio once a month. And so the quick answer is I had a very strict mother and she had me in a lot of AP and GT classes my entire life. When I got to high school, there were no classes left to really take. Um, and she said I had to find some. So my school counselor at that time— I'm gonna date myself here— but my school counselor at the time had a grant to train teenagers in the Just Say No program, in the D.A.R.E. program, and the Red Ribbon Campaign program as peer counselors in suicide prevention. So she offered to enroll me in her program so that that would take up some of my time and to enroll me in AP psychology. in AP sociology. I loved it. I was trained at that early age as a counselor, which meant about once or twice a week, I went down the street from my high school to the elementary school to deliver the program. So I started to actually do programming and counseling. We did in-day retreats in the cafeteria about once a month with kids. It was fun. I've done enough rope courses and retreats to last me a lifetime, right? So fast forward to today, I'm married. I have 2 kids. And my practice has kind of evolved and changed as my life has evolved and changed. So now I don't even see kids anymore. Um, at one point, 90% of my practice was kids. Now, no kids. I only see adults and couples. Um, I've recently adjusted that to be adults ages 25 and older. Um, and I love— I've always loved my work, and I just kind of— as I change and grow, the practice changes and grows. So. My interest in infidelity recovery somewhat naturally evolved from forensic work I was doing with adult male sex offenders and then adult probation and parole. And that's a pretty robust skill set. And I was also doing psych ER, community mental health, that level of intense care, which you would think would translate easily into skill sets for working with infidelity recovery. But I know you know from listening to some of your—

Yeah.

know already, this is its own beast.

Um, yes, it is.

Um, so I, I tell anybody, yeah, you're kind of prepared, but you're also mostly not. And the humility, the humility to learn and to grow and to be flexible and to gather as many skills as you can as you go, and to constantly choose as a practitioner to grow and expand your skill set, because this is such a A fantastic opportunity because I've had a lot of couples. I've seen thousands and thousands. It's been 25 years this May.

I'm in 2026.

It'll be 25 years. But every couple is uniquely different in that I can never know how things are. Is it going to work out? Is it not going to work out? I never know. And it does— there's no real— it could look terrible.

Yes.

Terrible and work out just fine in the end. And I've also had it look like, how could this not be working out? You know, it just, just falls apart almost like a cake coming out of the oven. Like, I followed the recipe and it doesn't always work out. But having said that, it has been a beautiful opportunity for me every day. And I keep doing this. I'll keep doing it. I say at some point they'll make me a hologram and somebody who looks like me will be able to sound like me and look like me and deliver the sessions. And then along came AI and I'm like, nah, I was just kidding. Yes. I was just kidding.

Yeah, be careful what you wish for.

Right? Right.

Yeah.

So when I started, I was like, oh, I didn't really mean it. But so I will, I say I will do this until I simply cannot. I enjoy it that much. So that's my reason for coming into the field. We have my mother to thank for the entry. And then I just never left.

That is, that's so interesting. I was smiling. Most people listen to this rather than see it. Some people see the video, but I was smiling broadly as you were speaking. And I don't know if you were noticing that you were saying stuff that I say so much, you know, the bit about I never predict. Remember, I've said this to you many times. I gave up, you know, even in my mind predicting how's it going to turn out decades ago.

Yes.

Because it's, it is so fascinating. Every couple is unique. And the other thing, and I especially like this when, you know, when we looked at your materials and invited you to be on this program, The essence, I think, of the work we do has to involve humility. And that is so clear. We got to not know going in.

Exactly.

And that, I think it's also a protection against burnout. You know, the joy you're expressing in the work is exactly what I feel as well. And I think that is totally tied to my realizing I'm not trying to sell people a bill of goods. I'm not trying to fit them into my structure. I'm just trying to work with them, you know, We're trying to be alive together. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to facilitate. And then you never know how it's going to turn out. It's fascinating.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, we're on the same— kinship there. Definitely.

Yeah, indeed. Yeah. So this is a very broad question. But you know, what, what's your approach? How do you help couples when they're— when they come in, and they're reeling from, you know, somebody's discovered infidelity? Like, what do you do?

Well, initially in training, I was a cognitive behavioral therapist. Um, quickly learned that that does not work early on. People are in a great deal of pain. And, um, like you, it's been decades. And so some of it was observing the event and recognizing the elements, quickly recognizing that I think this is traumatizing people.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and recognizing that we have to do something about the trauma. For a while, I would piece out, parcel out the trauma work to a colleague, to 2 different colleagues. one of them retired, and he was really my go-to. Um, I noticed that people were not kind of seeing— I finally called him and said, hey, what's going on? Like, are you taking people?

I'm retiring.

I'm like, what do you mean you're retiring? And then I kind of thought about it. I'm like, well, he started EMDR back when I was in grad school, which was in the '90s. But as you know, that was right when it was coming out. Not a lot of practitioners had accepted it and were using it. So he was one of the early adapters. So I had been sending people to him for years and getting great results. Well, so he's retiring, the other person's full. And I said, well, I'll maybe try it, you know. So I decided to get the training, um, and have been relieved that I could have done this first of all so many years ago. I wish that I had because it is so much more seamless. As you know, compliance is everything when it comes to your referral. And that was becoming a problem. People come in to see me. And then I send you someplace else for just that part, but then you, you don't go. So then you come back to the next session. And with betrayal trauma, people are not just where they were the last time. It is sometimes worsening as we go.

Yeah.

Well, if you're very charged, if your nervous system is very activated, it makes it almost impossible to talk. And that's exactly what people want to do is talk about what happened. So with couples, I've adapted a few practices that help us to safely do the work. So mine is safety first. What is the most safe way for us to approach this? Because I actually have compassion for all parties involved.

For another key point, isn't it? Yes, totally. Yes. Including the cheater, right?

Yes.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. And you're right. When you do this work, you recognize quickly that these misunderstandings in the community can tiptoe into the therapy session. And part of my responsibility is to keep this room clean and full of integrity, but safe, which means compassion for all involved, the person who cheated and the person who was experiencing the betrayal. And in fact, sometimes even the larger organism of their family life, the kids, anybody who found out anything, and in fact, a little bit the affair partner. So sometimes people have to be really strict about their boundaries when it comes to the affair partner. But occasionally, I'm sure this may be happening in your work, sometimes there's no getting around interacting with the affair partner. It could be their boss. It could be a subordinate that there's, there's no getting around having to interact with the affair partner. And sometimes when I see, um, like, oh, you know, social media, but you have to stop all communication, stop all contact with family. Sometimes it's not even an option. Or even if it is an option, we've got to get to that option. And sometimes we've even got to legally get to that option. Sometimes it's the business partner. It could be someone that you can't quite move. A client a long time ago said it's an untethering. And I said, yes, it's not as simple. Yes.

I've noticed, I mean, I've had numbers of people over the years where They can't just break contact because they would be subject possibly to a sexual harassment lawsuit or something like that. You know, a business owner who would, would make the mistake of taking up with an employee and then wants to, you know, dump them, but it's realizing how sticky that is.

Yes, yes, yes. So ironically, sometimes for me, safety means a legal counsel. I'm not an attorney, so I do have a few partnerships with a few law firms here locally. Um, I love that now there's different resources online. JustAnswer is one. So I will say to people, people. First, we need safety. And some of our safety includes a legal counsel, which I cannot give you, but you may need. So you need to check out some of your legal options. I see a few celebrities, a few professional athletes, and sometimes they need a cease and desist. They need an NDA. They need to protect themselves, protect their livelihood while they're in therapy, because those crises can snowball out of control and impede therapy. We have to first create a safe space. So safety means all involved. And I just, I'm by nature nonjudgmental. That helps a lot. And I'm by nature very curious. Um, I love human puzzles and every puzzle is different. I don't know, you know, when you get a big million-piece puzzle, you at least find the outline first. Well, with humans, there's no real outline. So you just have to kind of stay very curious and excited. I do a lot of self-care. So part of my safety for therapy is my own self-care. So in between, I do maybe 3— I have a 3-minute playlist I listen to to make sure that I kind of clean up my own nervous system and bring my most authentic self, my caring self into the session. But as you know, dealing with betrayal trauma, I have to bring in a strong presence and establish a presence in the session.

Absolutely.

So we can all respectfully approach the topic. But you do have to approach. So as with some kinds of trauma, when people come in maybe with childhood trauma, we can sometimes take our time. It's, you know, a leisurely route. With couples, you don't always have the gift of so much time. And my approach to that is to bring the sessions together. We may have to meet often for— we may have to meet daily for a few. We may have to increase the session frequency.

Mm-hmm.

Over a few weeks, I may need to see in intense sessions both parties and a joint time right after. You have to adjust. And the cousin to that would be someone coming in for a mental health issue that is not stabilized. And so now I need you to go on the unit for a few weeks to get stabilized. You're going to step down to a partial hospital level for 5 days a week. Then an IOP program for 3 days a week, and then finally step back into private care. Well, the cousin to that for couples is we may be intense for a few weeks just to kind of get this safety established. Um, there's fires going on that have to be put out, and sometimes we need to get out of the burning building. So the crisis stabilization is important, but it, it is not— it is delicate surgical work that you just said. If you, as a therapist, any therapist listening to this, if you're doing this work, your self-care, your sense of self is actually a component to the work.

Sure.

Yes. So that's how I go back to that puzzle component.

How do you help couples when they have a different understanding of what happened?

Which is kind of par for the course, right?

Yes.

They usually come in with very different understandings.

Very different understandings. And the Accessibility of ways to cheat on a partner have expanded since I started my practice, right? So once upon a time, it was only so much you could actually do. It was only so much you were limited in what you could actually, what you can actually do. Now there really is no limit, right? There's access and access is very easy now. Once upon a time, you had to like find corners of time to even slip away from your family. Now you have your phone, you can cheat. Um, you could access any number of ways to cheat, but here's what I consider cheating to kind of— the definition I consider is consent. If my partner did not or would not consent to this, it is cheating.

Yeah.

Yes. And because of our relationship. So, um, and for listeners who may be curious, if you will listen a little bit to Helen Fisher's research.

Born. Monique, I think if I weren't probably 20 years older than you, I think we were twins separated at birth.

You think so? I'm listening to you talk.

I mean, I am like Helen Fisher all the time.

EMDR training. I mean, all this stuff. You guys are like parallel.

Yes, we were. So we're soul twins then. We'll call it— we're soul twins. Yeah. But so then we're not restricted by time and space. Okay, so we're souls. So Neil deGrasse Tyson listens to this is gonna like have his head is gonna explode. But I'm just saying, Possibly on some universe, we're soul twins, and we found our way to Earth, and now we're just in different bodies. Okay, so evidently my faith-based listeners are going to kill me. But anyway, I'm just saying. So but her work helps you understand that the level of betrayal you feel— she's scanned thousands of people's brains after heartbreak. It is a real event. It is an observable event in the brain. It is not something that you could just snap. Time does nothing. Time does nothing to heal this at all. I mean, it actually can worsen. over time. If you do nothing, it can worsen over time. So it is a real event. And sometimes when people experience that kind of heartbreak from their partner cheating, that experience has to be dealt with. So I like using the trauma-based works, that trauma family, you know, brain spotting, IFS, internal family systems. I use a lot of polyvagal theory in my work because there is an actual observable event of trauma and you can see it. You can actually physically see that event. So it helps to normalize the biological understandings that you can physically see that you're not just making up this pain. And for people who can kind of come into the— that therapeutic alliance we need to do that work is a primary too. If we can trust each other, we can get a lot of things done. We can access all these different modalities. If we don't have a strong therapeutic alliance, we can get nothing done. And now the therapy itself can become, um, a traumatic experience. With couples, you want to quickly— and by this, I mean quickly, but in the first meeting, I sometimes try to get that alliance started over the phone. That first meeting, move quickly, just like a firefighter moving quickly, getting people to trust you enough to let you get them out of this burning building. That's a firefighter response, right? So a little bit, the therapist is in that identity, that role. But then once you get people outside across the street, switch out of that role. We're out of the— we don't need to steal the firefighter role, but now softly moving into care and keeping. And as soon as that nervous system is settled enough to have some insight and work, you can really do great things. Except back to the beginning of the podcast, I still can't guarantee your outcome.

Yes.

I still won't know where But I do ask for a tiny— this is something I used many, many years ago and it worked. I had a couple come back to me and tell me that helped a lot, which was establishing a date in the future that we're going to make a decision about which way to go. And that this time in between is ICU time. We're not making any decisions. You know, the relationship is in the hospital. We're not deciding to pull the plug. We're not making any decisions. We're just making sure that we've done all we can. We're using life-saving measures. And it— on such and such a date, we're going to decide if we're pulling the plug or if we're going to continue with whatever measures we want to try to see if this relationship can recover. But I like to have the relationship looked at as its own thing, as its own part, versus internalizing and feeling such shame and blame that you, you, you.

Mm-hmm.

Instead, we are looking at this thing and deciding. So for some, and I just agree with a couple depending on the timeframe, 3 months, 6 months, a year. I had a couple once say 3 years. When I heard that, I thought we might be okay.

Apparently they're not that desperate.

Right. Yeah.

How do you help the couples establish that emotional safety?

We, we have open conversations often. So on the one hand, we established that day, but then a check-in every once in a while. How much stamina do you feel right now? Let's talk about it. Um, I have a lot of ebooks that are just free downloads for them to learn about their nervous system, to learn about what's happening. Um, I do keep a recommended reading list for couples that includes just some of the basic, like Gottman's work on the Four Horsemen. The jolly is like feeding them in the stables at this point because of what's going on. You know, they, they have to be tended to. Um, so some of those basics, and then I'd like for them to learn some higher listening skills, advanced listening skills. Compassionate listening is one skill. I'm just kind of looking at all the— so our basic— you can't help but hear, but listening requires attending. And in this kind of way, with betrayal trauma, you're actually having to learn to listen to each other in much the same way that therapists do, where we pay attention to top to bottom. what's said, what's not said, and we approach with seeking to understand first versus being understood. So there's a lot of coaching, Judy. There's a lot of coaching. So at the beginning, I may say, you know, would you guys mind if I coach a little bit? And somebody says no, somebody says yes. I say, okay, well, why don't we just sit with this? Let's look at it, and maybe we'll come back in a few minutes and see if you feel coachable. But I need an invitation. to coach. Because just like with sports, coaching is, you know, it's pretty straightforward, you know. So it's a little bit more of a straightforward approach. And I do have to interrupt people in coaching. I say, okay, let's just give me 5 more minutes of coaching. And then let's, just like with sports, let's take a break, get some water. Let's take a break from coaching. And let's talk about how you feel. Are you feeling okay? I'd like for the sessions to end on a high note. So that's where a lot of that brain spotting, polyvagal theory comes in. You know, find a spot to look at. Where's your gaze? Notice comfort. I slow my voice down. I have a little hourglass here in my house that has some blue sand in it. The blue helps me. So I notice the blue sand. And also when it's going down, it reminds me we had better get off these horses and put them in the stable because I want them to end on a soft note.

Yeah.

I'm like, scan your body, you're noticing tension. All right, why don't we breathe? You know, 4-7-8 breathing at the end of the session. I send a little infographic that shows them how to do the 4-7-8. We monitor sleep. I mean, a lot of people don't know that that's really my first symptom to pay attention to is sleep. If someone is not sleeping, which is natural, if they've been through infidelity, it's natural for both parties. You have to go to sleep because that's our key component for therapy is your brain. And if that brain has had maybe 4 or 5 nights of poor sleep, Your hippocampus is taking a hit, genuinely taking a hit. That's where you use emotional control, and it can fail you even if you're trying to calm down. It can fail you if you haven't been sleeping. The highway between your amygdala and prefrontal cortex depends on healthy sleep cycles. So all you need is a couple of weeks of not sleeping well, and now suddenly you're noticing that you're agitated all the time. And yes, you've been through a traumatic event, but your brain is so beautifully made. Beautifully made that it can actually clean itself and do a lot of the recovery with healthy sleep day to day, week to week. You're still going to face this terrible event, but with a healthier brain, you can do a little bit more robust work. So that's another approach early on is I ask people, well, how have you been sleeping? I haven't been sleeping.

Okay.

Can we, can we agree to try? Can we agree to try that first? Well, I don't know. I can't sleep. Okay, well, let's look at— so sleep training is a first one. And I do— I use a lot of free materials. I'm like, you know, I have a self-help course on that. Would you like that? A lot of permission getting, you know, would you like that? Would that help? Do you think that would help? But that's establishing a therapeutic alliance. It has to be there. So on the one hand, I'm thinking, please don't say no. But when they accept those invitations, I do, you know, get in there with them.

A lot of that, what you're describing, I think a lot of that is, it's all about getting out of that panic state. And so even the fact of your calmly offering all these possibilities, whether or not any given possibility is the solution, you know, it's just the fact that you're doing it. It's like, okay, wait a minute, there is a way out of this. Here is this person, the therapist sitting there, clearly embodying the fact that hope is possible. Even though they may not be feeling, you know, the couple may not be feeling it yet.

Right.

But just that can get them enough out of that panic state that they can then start to hear each other, start to hear themselves, maybe start to sleep. And, you know, the word I throw in, a word in all of my writings that has a lot to do with what you're describing, which is faith.

Yes.

And I don't mean necessarily religious faith per se, but I mean that basic sense that, you know, we are equipped to handle this. Reality is right to be what it is. Even infidelity has a basis. It's bad. It's immoral. Okay, fair enough. But it has a basis. And you're not, you know, one of the things I tell couples routinely in the first session is, and I usually say it's about 20 minutes in, I've done a few things, you know, in a family diagram and stuff. And I say, well, now I can tell, you know, I can tell one thing about you right from the get-go. Neither one of you is batshit crazy, you know. And they smile, you know, and because they're not.

I mean, they're not. Yes.

And people have told me, they were, you know, and I say, and I trust you didn't need me to tell you that, you know. But they tell me that's really reassuring to hear. It's like, oh, We're not crazy. Okay, well, that's good to start with. You know, I say they're not crazy, they're not evil, and they're not stupid. They're just human beings dealing with stuff.

Yes, yes, very much. And to that, with evidence-based practice, there's no reason why we wouldn't expect a reasonable outcome. I can't promise your relationship will reconcile. But there's no reason why you individually can't find center, that you can't find peace If we're using evidence-based practice. And some of those evidence-based practices are down to minutes. EMDR, about 810 minutes if we're using consistent trauma work. And what is the consistency of trauma? It's not having too big of a break between your sessions. It's not being unprepared for your appointment, being someplace where you can— exciting virtual.

Mm-hmm.

So people are somewhat tasked with creating a therapeutic environment. And it has happened before, um, that a couple will show up kind of, meaning they're on the camera, but one is driving, the other's in the passenger seat, or they are—

I won't do that.

Right. And I won't either. Right. So I say, so, you know, I'm, I'm happy to stay logged in while you guys pull over. No, we can go ahead. I'm like, we, we really can't. We really can't.

I don't want an unmade punch.

Right. I'm happy to stay logged in while you pull over. And then back to any therapist, now you've got to be flexible and keep moving. It can't be they are now penalized because they weren't ready, or they are penalized because they had this terrible argument the night before because somebody moved out, even though you had a safety plan that everybody was going to stay put. So nothing for the therapist can be the end of days. Or spell the end of days, and some of that comes from me seeing that nothing really was like that. That's an honest statement at the beginning to say. Well, probably you're not. Mine is SNC, show enough crazy. So I say, probably you're not show enough crazy, and likely you were in your right mind when you chose to pair with each other. Statistically speaking, this is such a common occurrence. And then I do share without spilling anybody's confidential. I'm like, a lot of people that you're seeing walking around looking like they're having happy marriages came in here, kicked their shoes off, and sweated it out. They put a lot of sweat equity into it. Um, now you're seeing the end result of a lot of work from behind the scenes. That's not— this was not magical. There was no Disney going on in the person's happy marriage. So some of these marriages that you may feel like you Why didn't we? Why were we? You're not the only ones. 100%, you're not the only ones. What the others tend to do is either self-help themselves through, which I don't quite recommend. Um, there's— it can, it can work, but there's just so many ways it can go terribly, horribly wrong. And marriage is such a precious thing. Um, the longest study, right? Harvard study, 85 years. That is the single component with, uh, Um, close relationship. Your, your partner for life matters so much to your physical health, not just your emotional health. And so if you found possibly your partner for life, there's been this event, before you put that in Tuesday's trash and wait for them to take it away, I'm like, well, first let's see, let's, let's see, um, what metaphor could we use for this? I use a lot of metaphors, you know, and, um, sometimes I try to guide us toward metaphors that don't fall apart quickly, like weather or nature. You know, what weather event would this be? Um, well, what do you do if you have a tornado and a tsunami and a hurricane all happen at the same time? What do you do? You know, what is the marriage doing right now? Kind of as much as possible creating an observer ego so that people can look at the marriage versus internalizing all this stuff. It is difficult to do, and sometimes the remedy for it is longer sessions, more frequent upfront and slowing down as the nervous system is more stable between sessions. Um, I'm, I'm not always a hero of this must work out.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I'm mostly, can we have peace talks and not have war? Can we agree to not have war for a period of time, um, with no promises? You know, and sometimes you think it'd be the person who cheated who's making all the promises, but that's not always the case. Sometimes it's the person who was betrayed. It's like, I'm not going to leave. We're going to work this out. I promise. And some of that one-on-one time is, hey, you know, is there any part of you? Because a lot of parts work for me. Is there any part of you that's wanting to do something different? You, you know, do you feel like we can invite that part of you to talk a little bit? What is that part of you thinking and feeling about this? A lot of emotion integration. What emotions is that part of me feeling? What emotions is this part of me feeling? You know, what do you think? How can we give a space for all those parts to talk and have a meeting place where they can talk about this before you make a final decision? And so really inviting that protective ego to be kind and compassionate to all these conflicting parts. Um, and it's always so interesting to hear people describe what those parts are doing early on.

It is fascinating. IFS work, you're talking about?

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Internal Family Systems.

Yeah.

And it's so beautiful what they're doing at the end. Like, at the end, it's like a beautiful party. People are happy. But at the beginning, they're not talking to each other. They're fighting. One part is taken. I'm like, it's pretty dark. Even the factor of darkness. Like, if you ask me, what color do you see? Dark, red, black. At the end, I mean, all you're missing are butterflies and unicorns at the end. But the beginning, And for the, the person doing the work, which in this case is me, using— I usually, I feel like I'm part of a community of scientists and artists, and I like to find what scientists and artists are doing now in 2026.

Mm-hmm.

What do we know now? So even Gottman's work, you know, what is he saying now? So I'll try to look and see what within the last 2 to 3 years is he saying now? What is Daniel Amen I'm saying now. I like the video of he and his wife, um, Tana, where they're talking about her journey in EMDR and that he gifted her with, um, 8 sessions of EMDR because he said, hey, you've been through all this stuff, this is going to affect our relationship, and I really like you, so can we just deal with that? Um, and I— well, I share that video. I'm like, this is a person who is a, you know, internationally recognized neuroscientist in love with a woman who is also a medical professional And him saying, for the, for the health of our relationship, even though it's not even impacting, I think it might. So let's just try to do something. And to normalize that with my couples, when I'm saying, let's do some trauma work, I'm like, even, even if you had a pretty good, it's still always a good idea to clean things up. And so let's clean it up. Let's clean things up. So that's kind of how I approach it. Yes.

You know, someone I often, I will invoke the notion of parts as well with folks. I got a little bit of, uh, IFS training a few years ago from Dick Schwartz. And it was the other person I love to cite, to mention to people is Jill Bolte Taylor. Do you know her work?

Yes. Yes. Yes. 90-second rule. Yes.

Absolutely.

Yes.

I'm telling you, we are twins separated at birth.

We are twins separated at birth.

Yeah. I'm always talking and, and, and I tell people about her book, Whole Brain Living, and the 4 different— that we're all 4 different people walking around. I asked Judy when, when we were— when, when I read the book, and I don't— you never did read that book. But when I was telling Judy about the book, and I said, who— well, how What would you name your 4 parts? Remember what you said?

Oh yeah, yeah, the 4 parts of the brain: John, Paul, George, and Ringo.

Which, you know, what a metaphor of beautiful music. I mean, love that.

Yeah, and there, you know, there is something— I mean, maybe they don't fit perfectly, but there is sort of something to that, that the, the reason they were so amazing is they did kind of fill in 4 different areas, 4 different, uh, aspects, you know. And there's, there's the upper and lower brain, and there's the left and right. And it was just— anyway, I'll often mention it.

Yeah, but no bad parts. Right?

No bad parts.

No bad parts.

To normalize, to normalize the fact that we freak out, but there are other parts of us that can take care of the part that freaks out.

Exactly.

It's not crazy to panic sometimes. That's a necessary physiological function.

Yes, yes, yes. Beautiful. Yeah, we were separated by something. We'll figure that out.

That is impressive. How can folks get in touch with you?

Well, I'm easy to find online, Dr. Monique Thompson. On Instagram, DR. So DR. Monique Thompson. Thompson. And follow me, just get, you know, get— I have lots of free stuff. I like for people to access kind of curated information for free. Just a shameless acknowledgement, you know, being transparent. It is from my own frustration of watching such inaccurate information being shared by so many. And a younger friend of mine, very, you know, a couple generations now, she said, well, you know, you could just put stuff out that is true. And I said, Well, I could do that. Oh, she said, yeah, just point it out all the time. And I said, okay. And so I just started doing it at the suggestion of a friend, a younger generation. I was like, all these people on here, y'all listen to that stuff and they're wrong. And so I was explaining something to her that was inaccurate. It was a little bit about attachment theory. So I'm like, you know, this really started with Dr. Renee Spitz in World War II. And I'm like, then he— then Dr. Bowlby just got funded. That's all that happened. Dr. Bowlby got funded. And so he did another study. Then he did it. I said, So really, this started with some orphaned babies in a hospital during World War II. And she was like, nobody knows that. I said, what are they really saying? She's like, oh, they said— I'm like, she said, just put it out there all the time so people can follow me and get accurate information all the time. I have lots of free downloads, and I love the accuracy of the science we have now. It's so accessible to everyone, but I understand it's overwhelming.

So.

Following me is not just to get care; it's also sometimes to get the education that I love for people to get.

Well, that's great. So we will put that information in the notes for this episode. Thank you so much for doing this.

Yes, bye twins.

It's a pleasure.

Yes.

Welcome back. I hope I told you you were going to enjoy this interview.

We sure did.

We sure did.

So you know it's fun. I've said this before. It's you know among all of our guests, it's not like I like to compare them. It's like comparing children, you know. But you know some of them, the vast majority of them are really interesting. Some of them are just hugely amounts of fun, and this was one of the fun ones.

Yeah, yeah.

This one just had fun.

And like you two so simpatico. It was I was like my jaws dropping open.

I say that all the time.

Plus she's got a workbook too, just like you do.

Yes, she does. And which you know I haven't seen yet. Because we didn't get a chance to get it, she's going to send it to us.

Yes, we didn't have a chance to get it in time before this interview.

And I'm going to guess I'll be recommending it.

Yeah, right.

And it's doing very well on Amazon. It's got hundreds of reviews.

I can see why. She's pretty amazing. So I'm not surprised.

Do check that out. So we've got, of course, I already mentioned beforehand in the intro, my new video course. It's called, by the way, The Passion Paradox. Not surprising, that's the same as the name of the new book. I've also got some other books out there. You've got a book, we might as well mention that.

Oh sure, what the heck.

Of course.

It's not here. Oh yeah, there it is. Okay, that would be The Blue Tent: Erotic Tales from the Bible. So speaking of couples, if you and your couple, your partner, want to add a little bit of spice into your sex lives, You can read that together with each other or read it alone and add some spice to your own life.

That's right. And notice the name of the author, that's Judy's pseudonym, which is Lauria Zylber. If you go to lauriazylber.com, you will see information there on how to get a hold of that book. You can go to Amazon, make sure to search for The Blue Tent: Erotic Tales from the Bible. Otherwise, you will get all sorts of blue tents, which is not what you're looking for, probably. Although maybe that'll help you.

Unless you're going camping.

You're going camping, maybe that'll help you a couple of times.

And if you go camping, you can take the book along with you in your blue tent. You can read it.

You can read it in the blue tent, but you still need to put in the blue tent erotic tales, and that'll get the book.

So until next time, remember, be kind, don't panic, and have faith.