161. The Philosophical Side of BE, an interview with Dr. Nick Hobson

Welcome to episode 161 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Nick Hobson for a fascinating conversation that even if you know of Nick, I'm guessing there's at least one thing you haven't heard him talk about on a show before. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business podcast. Today. I'm very excited to have a fellow behavioral science podcaster, Nick Hobson on the show. His podcast is called It's All Just a Bunch of bs. Such a fun name. He also writes for the Behaviorist and is the chief scientist scientist at Emotive Technologies. He's keeping busy, to be sure. So why did I say at the top of the show that this would likely show you a different side of Nick than you may have seen or heard before? It's because we really focus on philosophy, which is different than anything I've had.

On the show before.

And it was a lot of fun to chat about. I must admit, in my undergrad, I really hated philosophy. I'm not sure if I had a bad teacher or if I just wasn't ready for it yet, but. But it was one of my least favorite classes, though. As time has passed, I've come to realize that the types of questions I love to ask and my personal approach to applying behavioral economics is built on a foundation of philosophy. So even if you've not been a fan of the field in the past, I recommend you stick around. I think you're going to like the conversation. A bit of housekeeping before we jump in. There are lots of links to past episodes, books mentioned on the show, and how to get in touch with Nick, all within the show. Notes for the episode which are waiting for you within the app you're listening to or atthebrainybusiness.com 161. All right, let's jump right in. Dr. Nick Hobson, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Thanks. That's me, right? Doctor? Yeah. That's weird.

Anyone you know? I always like to. I know Katie Milkman. I had the same conversation with her, which is like, yeah, I mean, I guess you can say it, but I feel like there's so much work and Effort, I know that goes into earning that doctorate, that I like to acknowledge it at least once and give you that credit when it's due, and it very much is.

So thank you. And I have a funny.

I'll call you Dr. Nick forever.

That's right. Yeah. And I say, what is it? Hi, everybody. If anyone listens to it's Dr. Nick reference, which I use. I used to use in front of my students when I was lecturing, and they. It went right over their heads because they're born in, like, 1995 and. Well, no, they're born in, like, 2000 now. So the Simpsons references, they just don't get, which is depressing. And the doctor. The doctor thing. I'll tell you a story. It's funny, if you don't mind.

No, please do.

My wife makes fun of me about the doctor thing, you know, because it's like, oh, it's not a real doctor. And I appreciate what you're saying about, like, the effort and the work. I agree. So we. This was pre pandemic. We were going to a restaurant. I think we was like, date night. Because our daughter was really young, and she was being like. It was one of the first times. And so I made a reservation at this nice restaurant and local, like, local restaurant in the city. And when I made the reservation on. I think it was online on, you know, one of those platforms or portals. I was like, oh, just for the fun of it, I'm going to put in. Because they had the part, the dropdown, for, like, Mr. Mrs. You know, your. What do they call those prefixes or whatever? And so I was like, yeah, doctor. So I put in. I put in doctor just like, to myself, kind of like a little chuckle. And then we go there and, you know, walk up to the host stand and say, you know, hi, have a reservation. And she says, oh, yes, we'll be with you in a second. And then we're waiting. And a couple minutes later, she comes back and she says, your table is all ready, Dr. Hobson. My wife looked at me like, you're an idiot. Like.

I. Yeah, I feel like it's worth it. I like it. That's. I have made the joke. So my husband is one of those people. So he's like a human calculator type of a brain person. And so when people think about him, it's like, you know, words to describe Aaron, you know, super smart, is very, like, top of mind, I think, for a lot of people. And so I have always said, I really want to get my doctorate first we both talked about going through and getting them because I really want to be doctor and Mr. Palmer, even if it's just for a short period of time. So that's, that's like my new life goal.

A feminist move. I like it.

Yes, yes, for sure, for sure. So speaking of where, I'm sure, while you're not a medical doctor, tell us, what did you get your doctorate in?

I got my doctorate in social psychology and social neuroscience, I guess specifically. Now if I look at my, my degree, I don't know, but yeah, let's, let's, let's go with that.

What was your dissertation about? I guess let's look at that then.

The psychology and neuroscience of rituals. Yeah, so. Which I continue to work on today. So it is sort of a pieced together story. Although it's sort of a bit of a mess. It wasn't perfectly aligned. I came in with an interest in the psychology of morality, moral emotions and religion. And that's what I'd studied, cognitive science of religion. So, like what happens in the brain and the mind and the behavior of the believer and what are the sort of garden variety cognitive systems and processes that allow a human being to believe and to behave in a sort of religious way, in a religious context, with other people. So that's what my interest was. And then my first meeting with my advisor, Mickey Inslicht, was this. I was so, I can remember it. I was so nervous, sweating probably as I'm sweating now. And he was saying, you know, I know you have this interest in morality and religion. There's this new work that has just been published, this is in 2011. There's this new paper that just been published by Mike Norton and Francesca Gino on the psychology of ritual, looking at consumption rituals and grieving rituals. And it was amazingly the first empirical paper in psychology published on the topic of rituals. Even though our sister discipline, anthropology, had been publishing and doing amazing work with rituals for 100 years, that is the main thing that anthropologists and sociologists to some extent study and we psychologists, behavioral scientists, refuse to touch it. And there's, I think, a set of reasons for that. But at the time I was like, oh, ritual is cool because it's kind of like, you know, religious rituals are like the, they kind of are the epitome of ritual, the ones that exist in religious conte and religious domains. So I was like, sure, why not? And then that sort of just determined my path for the next five years in graduate school when I studied the heck out of rituals. And then it became my dissertation.

I love that. And of course, when you said rituals and I thought, oh, like Mike Norton. And I'm sure you've read plenty of their work with Francesca Gino.

We ended up working with them, which was actually why I became what I kind of credit Mike and Francesca to some extent. And then Juliana Schroeder and her team was a collaborator of theirs. She's now in her own faculty at UC Haas. But yeah, Mickey, my advisor was like, oh, and by the way, here's. I'm going to introduce you to these like big wig Harvard Business School people. And my anxiety just went even higher at the time. And of course, Mike and Francesca are both amazing and such cool and kind and smart people that they became my collaborators for the next five years. And well, no, we still collaborate actually on all things ritual. So, yeah, just so you know, you think back of like when we think of like, what do we do and why we're here? And so much of it is good fortune and a little bit of luck and a little bit of hard work along the way. But, you know, having been introduced to Mike and Francesca was my first exposure to the applied side of psychology. They brought me to one of the first. What is it, Behavioral insights group. Big events at Harvard in my second year. And. And at that time, like my training is really theoretical social psych, like just like getting in the weeds and a little bit of cognitive neuroscience thrown in there as well. It is the. It was the least applicable thing. And now I'm an applied behavioral scientist. But I do credit that maybe that turn in my. In my career to having been introduced and met Mike and Francesca. So if you're guys, if you guys are listening, thanks.

Yeah, please, please do listen. And I've definitely been having it in my to do to ping one or both of them about coming on together at separate times. So hopefully that will happen someday soon. Get them to.

Yeah, I'll reach out to them. I'll get the. I'll get them. We'll get them on.

Awesome, thanks. So with all that, I think, you know, it's an interesting. I love taking these kind of side conversations. So it's not that you're having the same interview over and over with any show that you go on to and where you talk. And so I think that there's such interesting in like you're talking there the theoretical versus applied and how it feels like they're very separate, maybe on the surface, but when we're talking about the brain in the brain's world, like that theory is kind of so much even in the applied space that it has to come together. And the school where I got my master's from, they also have a doctorate in behavioral economics and it's in the school of philosophy where my master's was from the psychology side. And I thought that was so interesting and weird, you know, like, for a while I was like, why would I philosophy. Why would my doctorate be in that? That makes no sense at all. But as I continue to think on it, you know, this, there's so much of what I do, and I'm sure you as well, that is just asking questions that don't necessarily have a correct answer.

Right.

And that you have to say, well, what if this and the. Well, if a tree did make a sound when it fell in the woods, what would that do? You know? So what are your thoughts on that?

Oh, I love that question because I have many thoughts on it. I double majored philosophy in undergrad with brain science, Behavioral brain science in undergrad. So it was sort of like this dual double major. And so I have just an affinity for philosophy for sure, which, which actually explains why I ended up in the area of psychology that I ended up in like morality and, and religion. It just sort of lent itself. So I have a natural bent towards it, for sure. So whatever I say next is clearly going to be a bit biased in favor of philosophy and the arts and humanities in general. I am definitely one of those scientists who believes that there is a great deal of value that comes with philosophy and the arts and sort of philosophical thinking. Questioning, as you said, I think that's the biggest part. Um, so I actually believe whether it's in a, like a basic researcher in academia or whether you are an applied researcher in policy or business, like outside of academia, I would hazard a guess that you'd be better at your job if you had some sort of philosophy training or background. And that, I mean, it doesn't have. You don't have to like take, you know, 17th, 16th century Western philosophy to get that. I think it's just like back to your point, asking the right questions and running those different thought experiments. So one of my favorites is Daniel Dennett, because Daniel Dennett is the perfect blend between he's a philosopher by training, but he bridged the gap between philosophy and computational cognitive science. And so there is such a natural marriage between the two disciplines. And I think somebody who has that philosophy background is just going to be trained to think about things in a different way. And that's ultimately what I Think good scientist is always trying to do. Well, at least that's one of the two things that they're always trying to do. The one thing is so, the one which is relevant here is that they're always trying to push, you know, what does it push the boundaries like explore the outer edges of the unexplored, you know, and break through a scientific innovation that is ultimately an exercise in curiosity and philosophizing and navel gazing and all these things and armchair. Yeah, being an armchair philosopher and psychologist. But the other sort of pillar, if you will, or main bucket of science is replication. And it's this constant tension between the two worlds. The one of let's go out and explore what we don't know and let's take what we know and try to falsify it through hypothesis testing and replicate it, because that's what the scientific methodology is. But why there's a tension between those two things is because they're almost at odds with one another. And I think the philosophy lives in the first one with asking the big questions and being curious and then the really analytic and method, sort of empirical, methodological type thinking sits within that second bucket of being able to replicate and redo our findings and results.

Yeah, and I think it's got such a great balance to. I've always been a fan of embracing both qualitative and quantitative research and that neither one can live in a vacuum, especially in the type of work that we are doing. And while it's not fully, I mean the philosophy side is kind of that qualitative, you ask some questions, you think through what it could mean, you design an experiment to test part and then you get these results and you think.

Now why did that happen?

And then you get to do it all over again and refine or shift and work things together in that way.

You bet. Yeah, exactly. It's sort of this back and forth and again it makes sense because some of the, some of the biggest and best, most famous psychologists, like William James, who's the found like one of the founding, at least within the North American school of psychology, was a pragmatist, was a philosopher. Most of those, most of those old white men back then were philosophers. And I think that informed a lot of their thinking. And as we know, like that's the birth of psychology, was a marriage between philosophy and physiology. Because in the late 19th century physiology was starting to come out with tools of measurement which then the philosophers were going, you know, we've been sitting around asking ourselves these deep questions in circles, but you know, there's some good in that, but not really getting anywhere in terms of like actually answering those questions for them. I think it was just ask, like one question led to another question which led to more questioning. But I think some of them were probably like, let's actually answer some of these questions. And then they're like, okay, well, how do we do that? Well, we do that with tools of measurement. And tools of measurement are like, that is the foundation of any science, not just our science of, you know, human behavioral sciences, but any science is. Rests upon the foundation of measurement, of measuring things properly. So now that these tools from the physiologists were coming out, these philosophers were saying, oh, we can actually use them to measure and then, you know, infer certain, certain realities or phenomena about the mind and about the, about the human behavior.

Totally. I think we're, we're all applied. Behavioral science is like the ultimate Benjamin Franklin living in the world. Right. So you've got the salons and the experiments all together in one space.

Yeah, exactly. I love that. I love that. That's a good way to think of it.

Yeah. So I know this is probably not what you expected we were going to talk about, but I love having conversations like this, so I do want to. There's in the morality question you were talking about, I remember, of course, there's the famous question of if, you know, there's the boulder or the bus is coming and it's going to hit five people, what do you do? It seems you know what I'm talking about. So do you want to share some of your thoughts, explain kind of what that question is and talk about it a little bit?

Sure. So I haven't heard that version or that variant, the one that. It's what we. What I learned is called the trolley problem. Same, same logic, same idea. Yeah. So if those of you who are listening haven't, haven't heard it before, it's a train is going down the track and it's going to. There's five people on the track and it's going to, oh, in a very unfortunate circumstance, run over those five people and kill them. And you're watching this and you have the option to pull a lever which is then going to divert the train onto a separate track and as a result save the five, but kill one person who's on that track. The question, what is considered a moral dilemma in moral philosophy and moral psychology is do you pull the lever? And if you say yes, you are binned and categorized as a utilitarian and if you say no, you are binned and categorized as a deontologist, which is these fancy schmancy words. If you're a utilitarian, you're kind of like the John Stuart Mill. You say, you know, five lives is clearly more costly than one life. Therefore simple math, we're going to save the person with one life, even though it's sort of at the hands of me pulling the lever. And the deontologist says it's not up to me to make that decision. And usually if you look at research from these, from moral psychology and deontology versus utilitarianism, you see that utilitarians tend to think in more system to and deliberate analytical frame of mind, whereas deontologists are more system one and they rely on more gut level intuitive and emotional processes to arrive at their decisions. And then of course they kind of rationalize after the fact. But I love me a good moral dilemma.

Let's talk about some business context and how you transitioned from this space of rituals and more philosophical stuff, theory into the work you do today. And tell us a little bit about the work that you do today.

I am currently the chief scientist at Emotive Technologies and also our first product launch called Apex. So Apex and Emotive kind of live together. So I head up the research and innovation there. That's half my time. And then the other half my time I'm the director of Behavioral and Data Sciences, that potential project. And then with whatever time I have left, I can do some content creation and curation, so podcasting and writing and stuff like that. But yeah, much, much of my focus these days as of late has been with the Emotive group and my business partners there. And Emotive, what it is, is sort of a perfect blend between technology and behavioral science. If I had to throw a third one in there, I'd say kind of like brand strategy or corporate strategy. But essentially what it is is Apex, which is, as I said, the first tool that's come out of the Emotive Labs is a SaaS based solution that uncovers and tracks the emotions and attitudes behind audience relationships. So when I say audience relationships, that can be the relationship between customer and brand, between employee and organization, or even between donor and charity. So ultimately we as behavioral scientists, well, not just behavioral scientists, anyone in business is ultimately interested in the point of action that a person engages in and re engages in over and over again. And we ask ourselves, what is that process? What is that decision process? How do we arrive? How does the end user arrive at that point? What are the set of antecedents and upstream indicators that follow before that decision point, which we can then use to somehow predict, quantify and track that person's behavior long term? So in another way, a customer buys something, why do they buy something? And there's a whole host of reasons of why that are sort of motivational in nature and emotional and contextual and environmental. And obviously humans are very complex. But with our tool, we ask ourselves, what are the things that are inside the head that are happening before the customer decides to purchase or before the customer decides to advocate for your product or service? Or if it's in the employee context, what does the employee have to experience in his or her head? What emotions, what attitudes before they get up for the day and feel engaged, like they can go to work and do and be their best, or before they go and sit down and deliver on a, on a, on a sort of a work stream or a task that's due in three days, or before they reach out to somebody and collaborate, like, what is the optimal employee look like? How do we get there? And what are the things that are happening inside the head which facilitate that whole process? So that's a bit of the boilerplate of Apex and my work at Emotive.

Yeah, that's interesting, I think, in that I'm sure some of that is shaped by your background in rituals. But just when you were talking about the employees specifically, it feels like that getting up and feeling like they're ready to go. It seems like there must be a lot of ritual built in somewhere in that.

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of rituals on both the external customer facing as well as the internal employee. And I've done work on, on both sides. They tend to be a little bit more interesting on the, on the customer side. So I've done some work with Major League Soccer and soccer or football, if you're European listening rituals, so fan rituals and how those rituals, which, if you're talking about sports and soccer in particular, it is the most ritualistic kind of, I guess, practice or sport that there is. And so I've done that. I've done some with health and beauty rituals as well. So that's a, that's a big space. And so, you know, that said, there are, there are plenty that exist within the employee context. And I've done a little bit of work on, on that side as well. I like to call them like they're not rituals with a capital R. They're sort of like mini rituals that you wouldn't necessarily think are ritualistic per se, but they kind of have a little bit of a little tinge to them that we can consider them ritualistic. And we know that on the surface, and this applies to both the consumer and the employee context, on the surface, these behaviors appear totally rational and superfluous and unnecessary waste of time. Like, why are you doing this? This actually has no sort of direct goal or instrumental value. And yet, despite all that, we are ritual creatures. We are actually only here, as advanced as we are as a species, in the sort of very futuristic world we live in because of ritual and maybe a little bit of religion as well. But here I am getting into those rabbit holes. So let me pull back out.

If you were to say, have someone reach out from a business and if you're going to say, oh, yeah, this is what we did for such and such, I know that when we get into consumer projects, not everything is a case study that is shareable. So do you have something where you're able to say, like, this was the problem that they had with their customers, whether it's through MLS or something else. And this is kind of what we found, you know, that tie within the, like big data personalization and behavioral science is such a huge next frontier, I.

Think, for the world.

So what sort of insights can you share about that?

Yeah, thank you. And I'll give my answer that is not necessarily related to ritual, if that's okay, but more related to kind of like emotions. So with Apex, the tool that we have, the SAS offering, what we do is we essentially poll consumers, customers, end users, and we ask them about their 16 of their internal states. And these can be attitudes, feelings or beliefs. And then we also ask them about their intended behaviors to purchase a particular product or to engage with a particular brand or to advocate for that brand. And then we run our IP through this algorithm that the team, the tech team, the dev team, has been building for a couple of years now, a long time. It's an amazing little piece of technology. And then what that basically says is it gives the end client a score. And then there's a series of reporting and dashboards that they can kind of click through and walk through when they're in product. And that then brings to life what that score means. And it shows them. Here are the 16 attitudes that are driving or failing to drive your consumers to act in your favor. And then it says, these are the ones that you're doing really well on. These are the ones that you kind of need to start to pay attention to. And these are the ones that you're totally just failing at and where there's opportunity for improvement. So that's the tool. And I'll walk through a scenario now that that's sort of laid out. There was one client where, when we first engaged with them, they had a pretty strong intuition and hypothesis that the problem with their customers and why they were having issues was because of the price point and the affordability of their product. And they ran some tests to sort of confirm or disconfirm that. And when they came to us, they still kind of believed that to be true. Then when we went out, gathered data, ran the model through the algorithm, what we actually saw was that wasn't the case whatsoever. The loyalists, who are still the loyalists of this brand, of this product, weren't loyalists because they said, I love it because it's affordable. They were saying why they loved this product was because it brought them a sense of joy and daily happiness. Something that our sponsors on the client side had no idea or didn't at least consider. Like what happiness? Our fans, our true fans and loyalists are being driven by the fact that our product makes them happy. And the whole time they were looking under the wrong tree, under the wrong rock, whatever. Something. Looking under the wrong something. And so the Apex score and the diagnostics that we ran for them allowed them to see that it was actually something else that entirely. And it was a bit of a counterintuitive finding for them.

Right. And so then essentially, the advice being, I'm assuming, something in the lines of, if you can find more people that are looking for this type of joy, if you can really focus on that joy piece and the daily joy that you get from the product price, as I often say, is never about the price.

That's not the problem.

It's all the stuff that happens before. So if you're able to message and showcase that value that you're providing, people will buy and be more likely to and be happier with what they get, regardless of, you know, keeping this price point. That's not actually a barrier when it's properly communicated.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And because we're. We're so sort of. We're very granular when we're looking at 16 to 18 individual psychological constructs, attitudes, feelings and beliefs, we can be very precise in our prescriptions back to the client of what to do. So we can say, look, ignore these fif. No, let's say ignore these 11. These things like, you don't need to concern, maybe another brand, maybe another company needs to concern themselves with these things. You don't for what you in terms of getting your like your biggest fans. Instead start to continue to nurture these three things. You know, being meaningful, being principled and being a dependable brand or organization if it's on the internal side. And really you need to dial up on these two things. Your two areas of opportunity for improvement are joy and respect your customers in order to feel maximally engaged with your product, with your brand need those two things and they're telling you this and yet you're underperforming on it. You're under delivering and that's what the diagnostic tells them. And what we know about behavior change and behavior science of course is that we can then design interventions, strategic interventions or what we would call manipulations in the lab because we know that the psychology of joy or the psychology of meaning says a whole bunch of things that are really interesting that we know can move the needle on those two particular psychological constructs. So then Apex for us is the starting insights point that then leads to the more strategic work that we do with our clients called Apex Research Roadmap. And Roadmap is the services based strategy work that we use to help sort of close the gap that the original technology has has exposed to clients.

I love all that. I think it's such a great technique, you know, and the tool and I know I personally am fascinated to be able to see kind of, you know, knowing that we all don't get to go look under the hood of those things. But I have so many questions and things that I'm intrigued to learn about as that would go as I'm sure that the audience is as well. So as we are actually getting close to our time, then what is the best way for all those who are listening and are thinking I need to hear more about that. How do they reach out and contact you?

They can contact me through LinkedIn which is. I spent far too much time on there. They can also email me directly if they want. N Hobson H O B S o n@motiveinc.com and they can also visit the site. We're at Apexscore AI and we're very busy. The team marketing team and the client success team on producing content podcast actually just came out today for a little miniseries we're doing around each of the individual attitudes and feelings and beliefs. So they can go there and yeah, read and listen and drop me a line always. As you can tell, I like to talk probably a little too much, but I'm always down to chat it's never.

Too much, as we would all say as kindred spirits. Right. To know that. Put you and I in a room and we'll just talk forever. I think probably.

I know.

And for everyone listening, we'll put the links, of course, for contacting Nick in the show notes. However, I don't typically write out email addresses because I care about your inbox and you don't need spam. So if you heard it here, you can go back and you can write it down since he said it, but it won't be listed there and clickable because all those darn bots will attack you. And I don't want that for you.

I appreciate that. That's really kind of you because I can barely stay on top of my email as it is right now.

Yeah, definitely. For all of us. So any last closing thoughts that you would want to share as we go? Something that you wish I would have asked about or.

Oh, my gosh, is this my time to say whatever I want? Here's a parting gift for listeners is you and I and those who are listening and love behavior. Of course we love behavior. We're behavioral scientists and behavioral enthusiasts and behavioral economists and behavioral practitioners. But for all of that behavior that we are looking at and observing, let's not forget about what is actually happening inside the head, inside the mind, which are the precursors to those behaviors. And it's a bit of a. It's a bit of a shift that I started out in my journey as a psychologist, so it's, you know, in the mind. Then I shifted to the behavioral side as a behavioral practitioner, and now I'm finding myself going back to inside the head. And of course, both matter and we need both. But I challenge listeners to think about how those two things work together and how we actually end up doing the stuff we do and why we do the stuff we do.

I love it. Wonderful words to end on. Thank you so much, Dr. Nick Hobson, for joining me. Gotta go full circle.

That's right. No, I really, I really. It's been a long time coming, so I really appreciate you having me on.

Agreed.

Thanks so much, and I look forward to talking with you again soon.

Thank you again to Nick Hobson for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing? In today's conversation, I loved talking about rituals and morality and the way our brains react to these questions instinctively, even if we can't quite articulate why. It's fascinating to me and was something I really enjoyed in my master's program as I said during our conversation. The doctoral program at the school where I got my master's has its doctorate in behavioral economics as part of the philosophy department, which I thought was very strange at first. The master's is part of business psychology and I figured, you know, it'd be in the same place. I really struggled with this for a while because as I said at the beginning of the show, I really hated.

Philosophy in my undergrad.

But after really thinking about the questions I like to ask and the unknown conundrums of how the brain works and looking for something deeper, being okay with questions that can't be answered and still trying to seek out those lessons within them, I'm definitely coming around to the idea of my own PhD in Philosophy and behavioral economics. We'll see. Nick, perhaps I'll be chatting with you about that soon, as I've already said a couple times. There are links to past episodes and ways to get in touch with Nick in the show notes. You'll also find links to books by Mike Norton and Francesca Gino, who are both mentioned in the show, so you can check those out. Mike's book is called Happy Money and Francesca's is Rebel Talent. There's also a link to the conversation with Beck Weeks, a co founder of Peak who's done work with Mike Norton on rituals and so much other cool stuff within their app up. It's all waiting for you@the brainybusiness.com 161 and thank you again to Dr. Nick Hobson for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Next week on episode 162, we will learn why Less is Not a loss with Dr. Lydie Klotz. It's going to be a lot of fun. You won't want to miss it. Until then. Thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.