349. Unlocking Success Through Collaboration: Insights from Priscilla McKinney

Welcome to episode 349 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to be Speaking with Priscilla McKinney, author of Collaboration Is the New Competition Ready?

Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Priscilla McKinney. Priscilla is the CEO of Little Bird Marketing, a popular keynote speaker, author, prolific blogger, host of two podcasts, industry innovator and diversity champion. Best known for making waves in the digital marketing industry, Priscilla has been featured on numerous podcasts including this one, is the past president of American Advertising Federation Heartland, and has received numerous design, entrepreneurship and industry awards. Along with her expert team, she developed the SOAR system, a proprietary process designed to create sustainable lead generation for busy leaders so they can have confidence in the growth of their company without losing focus on their other responsibilities. Priscilla personifies creativity, entrepreneurship and authentic leadership, inspiring others to truly carve out their own path of success in her uniquely funny, no nonsense and slightly irreverent way.

Don't worry, you'll hear lots of that.

In our chat today. Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for everything, including related past episodes, links to articles and books, including Priscilla's new book, Collaboration is the New Competition Competition and so much more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 349. Now let's jump right in. Priscilla McKinney, welcome back to the Brainy Business Podcast.

I love me some Brainy Business podcast.

And I'm so happy to be here. Thanks so much.

Oh, I'm so happy too. I'm always delighted to go to events. When I get, when I see you and I know you're gonna be there, it's like, ah, I always, I know I've got a friendly face all the time and anytime we get to chat and connect, I see on my, on my LinkedIn or on my Twitter or.

X I suppose, whatever you have to call it these days.

So anyway, clearly I will have said a little bit about you in the intro and you've been on the show before. But for everyone who doesn't yet Know you can you share a little bit about yourself and your background and the work you do.

Yeah, I like to refer to myself as an aspiring lunch eater.

So there's that.

I'm also the CEO of a sleep improvement agency. So business owners who are stressed about the short term and the long term revenue goals for their company come to us and we take care of things and they start sleeping again at night.

So that's what we do. Otherwise known as the CEO of a content marketing company.

I love it. This is. Is this the loop in so that it makes sense that when your podcast is now going to be, like, sponsored by Purple Mattresses or Casper or something?

Yes, exactly. If you want a good night's sleep, use this mattress and call Little Bird Marketing.

Yeah.

Hey, you know, there's a. There's an association, a way to tie in everything. For sure.

That's right. Yes.

And in your. The last time you were on the show, we talked about your background in anthropology and how that comes into marketing and whatnot. So we don't have to dig in too much on that. But understanding and thinking about people and how they work together, come together and everything I think is so interesting and important for behavioral science. Some people don't think it ties into marketing, but can we just say they're wrong?

Those people can.

Well, this is, this is your show, and on my show we can say they're wrong too.

So anyway, all kidding aside, can you share a little bit about that kind of understanding of people and, you know, anthropology, I guess, of why you think that matters in the work you do in marketing?

Yeah, I'll make it a little more personal this time. I'm the fifth of five girls, and so basically I was born into a roving gang.

And now we did a.

Lot of good in this gang.

But I can also neither confirm nor deny how many puppet shows happened that were a product of this gang.

But it is very, very interesting when you already are born into a family system that is dynamic, you know, and. And we also, you know, grew up overseas. I went to four different high schools in three different countries. I've lived in, I, I don't know, well over 30 houses at this point. And that's interesting because I've lived in this last house for 20 years, so it was a lot of moving growing up. My parents were missionaries, and so we grew up as what we refer to as third culture kids. So I do think this reflects about marketing, about, you know, how people come together, why people come together, how those, you know, bonds are formed. And what people need to do to get along, even when they do have a short Runway to do so or when they have a shorter shared Runway. And so that's kind of where culture comes in for me, is that, you know, I was often the odd man out when I was growing up in Spain, I wasn't Spanish. When I was in boarding school in Germany, I wasn't German. When I came back to the US I wasn't really American anymore. And so you're always on that side saying, hey, can't we all get along and here's how.

And so that's how cultural anthropology, marketing, behavioral science and collaboration all come together.

Yeah, I love the. When we look at, back at our own lives and being able to see how we've kind of become the way we are and the expertise that we have. I recently had Matt Abrahams on the show and his book is called Think Faster, Talk Smarter. His podcast is Think Fast, Talk Smart. But he is speaking about how he's really good at impromptu speaking because with the last name that starts with ab, he was always the first person called on or having to go in school or whatever it was like, because things typically are alphabetical. And, you know, he attributes his ability to like think on his feet to having that be conditioned in him for his whole life.

Yeah. Yeah. I love listening to him. That kind of that improv mindset, I guess, is how I think he even refers to it is. It is. So it's a coveted skill.

Right.

And it serves you well, but it is also nerve wracking. And so I would say that's exactly my life.

It's a coveted skill. It served me well. And it's rather nerve wracking, for sure.

Well, and he too, you know, think you, you both would have a lot in common for sure in this of like talking about prep. Right. So being prepared for the unexpected is what helps you to be able to think more quickly and speak on your feet and that sort of thing. And you, I know, talk in your, in your book about prep work too, which we won't necessarily jump into now because it's like deep in the. In the process of stuff. But your new book, which I'm so, so excited about, is called Collaboration is the new Competition. I would say we've, I guess, bonded over this from day zero. Right?

That we. Yes, yes.

And unfortunately, day zero was about two years ago because that's how long it takes to get a book done.

Yeah, well, even that, I mean, of day zero of us connecting too. Right. Which for sure like, of just. I remember that you and I believe the first time I remember seeing you, and maybe this is our rule of 15, right. Was when I was asked to emcee you better behave for a group that was doing this daylong event in the pandemic. And it was, you know, three companies that had come together with Green Book to help put this thing on, and then it was me. Or actually, I don't think Green Book was a part of that one.

I forget.

Anyway, but I was emceeing and it was just all the. As I'm like, looking at comments and looking at the feed, and it's like, Priscilla, Priscilla, Priscilla McKinney says this. Priscilla McKinney's like tagging somebody about this. And so y. So I think that was when we even maybe connected on that day, because it's like engaging and interacting with you and then say, like, I can't not talk to stay connected to this person.

Well, and I really already liked a lot of the people presenting, and that's why I was so engaged behaviorally. Put that on with Maro Group and Protoboard. Yeah. And yeah, they. They chose a great. A great mc, Good job for them. So it just made it more dynamic and it was such a very great collaborative moment. So it. It's a really great origin story you and I have.

Right. I love it. And that they've gone on. And big thanks to our mutual friend Will Leach for connecting me into that. And that's kind of how that came about, that I became the emcee for that. And the reason I was thinking about Green Book is, of course, because we better behave is something that's done at their events now every year, bringing those same, you know, groups together. So really showing how collaboration is valuable, even because people would say, like, those three are competitors.

Absolutely.

So before we get too deep into that sort of stuff, how about you share a little bit about collaboration being the new competition and what inspired you kind of to write the book?

Yeah, well, I guess I. The idea to. I missed the push, the insistence internally.

You know, that I must write this.

Book was because, you know, I saw a real gap in business books about this different kind of approach. And you and I both hate the kinds of traditional business books that present this, like, really romanticized, linear journey. The hero goes from here to here, winning only with this one small dip.

You know, to make the story work, you know, and it.

And we know as entrepreneurs and what I refer to as the stunning discomfort of entrepreneurship, that it is not like that the journey is not like that. It doesn't feel like that. It's not experienced like that. Your nervous system doesn't take it in like that. And so it was very far from the reality of the business world. Now, I don't want to disparage business books because there have been so many that have been so helpful to me and you. And I have a lot of friends who've written good ones.

I love.

I love yours. I just have been on a kick with Ryan holidays, and just these books, you know, in their simplicity and mindset shifts, have been so helpful in giving me clarity. And so, of course, I love books, but I love books that basically acknowledge the complexity of the business environment and that formulaic responses don't work, but frameworks will, because as long as you can have some kind of a system, you can't just go at everything with zero system or zero framework. But if you can stay as loose, as flexible, and, you know, keep your mind as open to what could happen, you know, then I think a mindset shift can help you think of a new way to solve problems. And also I think what's seminal is a new way of perceiving what the problems are.

Yeah, I. I was thinking so much about. So recently, I have just been feeling like this survivorship bias. This mantra is everywhere. I'm seeing it so much of the, like, you're saying the. The one thing that every successful entrepreneur does, like, change your whole life with these two lessons about whatever. Like, everybody says this is the only thing that matters. And, like, change that and whatever, right?

The year of. Yes. The year of. No, I'm like, what's next?

The year of maybe.

I mean, it's like, oh, my gosh, these things just keep going, you know, running circles and. And they aren't very helpful to me.

Well, and it's just.

It.

It's just not correct. I. I try to be pretty. What, partisan, right? Like, I try to be in the middle of stuff a lot of the time. And, like, there's a possibility of this or it could be that, and. But it's just not right that those are. That is the one thing that did something every single time. And we know from behavioral science, you know, I have, you know, clients and students that all the time they're going through and like. But so which one is it? It's. It's both, right?

It's.

It's both. It's neither. Right? It's. It can be anything in here. And embracing that gray is really critical for being able to look for opportunities like you said, though, understanding the framework, understanding some of the underlying concepts, knowing what we're trying to focus on is really critical as we're moving forward and having a. A touchstone of sorts. Right. And I think your book does a really great job of that.

Well, thank you. But you know this super well and that is what got you here, is not going to take you to the next place. And when I think about, you know, your book, what your customer Wants and Can't Tell youl, you really hone in on that idea that, you know, you cannot stop listening to the customer. They may not be able to articulate what it is. But the moment you take their lack of articulation or their silence for permission to just continue to do the same old, same old as the moment your brand is dying.

Right.

I mean, this is to me the summary of your book. Right.

And at least how I took it.

But I do think that, you know, I see it in marketing, so people are very successful. So they get here and be like, well, we were successful. We're just going to keep doing the same thing. It's not going to work. And they just beat their, you know, head against a wall with that. And I think that's also what's happening in business. We have problems that are, you know, very entrenched. We have problems we've been facing for a long time and we have newly emerging problems. And for both of them, we're going to have to rethink how we perceive it and how we solve it. But just because it kind of sits there latently does not give us the permission to not formalize a very intense investigation about what's going on.

Yeah, for sure. And just because I think building on that, like it's always been done, like business in this kind of secretive way. It's funny. So I do know, I too, I know you talk about how your son didn't like the group project. Like me either. Right. Anytime you're assigned a group project, it's like, well, that's more work for me or sort of a problem, problem. And I can really tie back my. I was really fortunate being in the credit union industry pretty early on in my career in that has a spirit of what we lovingly refer to as coopetition. And so which, you know, is very similar, I think, to that, like, you know, collaboration being new competition and there's kind of this abundance mindset of there's enough for everybody and that we're able to share ideas and even, you know, the credit union down the street, I Could call and say, hey, you know, I see that you've been having success with this. Can you tell me about it? And they're like, yeah, here's my, my business plan. And here's the, like, maybe not in a over the top way, but like they're just really open and willing to share to help everyone to thrive. And so having my business experience and exposure early on, being really built on openness and sharing and helping other people and lifting as you climb sort of a deal in different entrepreneurship groups I've been in, have a similar mindset. So again, I just have been really, really fortunate. And I always say that's the basis of any of my success comes from that. And I know that you're, you know, in a similar, in a similar vein.

Yeah. And I think I got very lucky, you know, falling into the market research world. I did have, have a market research job, the first one out of college.

But I didn't really even notice it and went on, which is funny. We have, you know, banking and credit union work in common, so that's another commonality we have.

So I didn't really think about that. But yeah, the, the, the credit union is such a good example of how it can work and how it does work, it continues to work. But yeah, I have surrounded myself with people and so because of that, we keep, we keep growing that network of people who are willing to do that. So that keeps being a larger and larger part of our experience. I think it's because we do weed out people who are not willing to work that way. And so I fell into this market research industry and it happens to be a very empathetic, a very intelligent group, a very articulate group, and a very cooperative group. So it kind of follows.

Yeah, no, I love it. So I. Do you have additional introduction into the book before I ask you about the Kumbaya effect?

Well, maybe, maybe to say to people that, I guess the idea that I want people to open their mind to at the beginning before they just read something and throw this book across the room is how dare you. I know you hear collaboration and you think, I've tried that before. Maybe just think, is it possible that what people have said was collaboration was actually not collaboration, it was something else. But maybe you actually haven't tried collaboration and if you tried it, you might like it. So I guess that's the only setup.

And then we can talk about Kumbaya.

Well, that's a great setup. Right? So in the. It's almost like you've been thinking about this for a long time and, like, writing a book about it. But yeah, if. If you. I appreciate, you know, reframing that a little bit. Right. If you don't like it yet, it's because you did it wrong. So let me tell you.

Right, right.

And. And maybe you did it wrong, but.

Also maybe everybody keeps forcing it on.

You to do it wrong. Right. That's right. And group project.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And.

And you haven't been either given permission. Maybe you don't have authority in those particular places. We know, you know, students don't have authority. We know, you know, young kids going to camp don't have authority to make.

It be a certain way.

You know, and we also know that, you know, you and I, as bosses, we know that oftentimes our employees don't have the authority unless we give it to them, to, you know, to make things different. And so there are some employees in some places that don't have the authority to make collaboration truly collaborative. You know, So I think in all fairness, maybe you haven't done it right or maybe someone has not let you do it right. I don't know what the case is. Yeah.

And probably. Yeah. And in a lot of cases, if you're not doing it right, it's not any fault of you. It's one, it's some of the, like, wiring for us. And two, it's just the way it's been presented to us over time. It's the same thing about where I say, like, brainstorming is not great. Right. Which is why we should be doing question storming. But all we've ever known is brainstorming, so why would we do it any differently? So can you share a little bit about what is wrong with what people are thinking about as traditional collaboration and what real collaboration is?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Boy, I gotta nail this.

Yeah.

So collaboration gone wrong. I use the example of my fifth grader coming home and being pretty upset about a science project. And, you know, I don't even have to tell you this trope.

You already know.

Right. So he's an A student. He's. They're gonna put a C student in there, and they're gonna put a failing student in that group, and they're going to call it collaboration. And what's going to happen is that one kid is going to end up doing all of the work, and the other ones are going to get the good grade for it. And what happens there is that the inequity of the setup is already very apparent. The A student has everything to lose the C student is, you know, neither win nor lose. And the failing student can only win in this scenario, you know, so that is not collaboration. And I point out a lot of different ways that you can tell when collaboration is not there. But one of the deeper looks we talk about is this Kumbaya effect is like a lot of times people think just because they force togetherness, that that is collaboration. And when I look at things like a Kumbaya moment around the campfire, we all might get together. To me, that's geography, that's not collaboration. Right now you might have geography with an emotional benefit.

So I feel much better after I.

Left, but I still have only accomplished being in the same place with someone. And if. If solving a problem only required proximity to someone else, we would have solved.

A lot more of today's problems.

Right.

So, you know, whether it's collaboration that's.

Gone wrong because of improper frameworks or just misuse of that name, or it's a Kumbaya effect where, you know, people are doing it for the sense of, we'll all feel better about this in the morning. Either one of them are very misguided. But I truly believe that, you know, what is difficult today in business is very hard for individuals to get right or individual companies to get right. And this is just, look, a bias I have just right from the start of the book. I do think business is more complex now. You know, digital media alone is more complex now. Social media networks are more complex now. Going to a conference is more complex now. You talk about like, you know, you and I are members of a good old girls club with women in research, you know, and we have done that because to face the complexity of the world, of the work world. We have come together and banded together as a gang in order to fix it. And this is what I offer in the collaboration.

Yeah, yeah. And there's so much that can come from working together with others and sharing ideas and insights and learning and whatnot. And we obviously talked about a little bit of that coming into the. This point in the conversation. You then get to, in the book, the kind of, I guess, like, main point takeaway of what we're able to do here. You have. So in behavioral science, we talk about anchoring in a very specific way. You talk about anchors, and you have seven of them that are a little bit different. But can you share about those kind of overarching of these, what the anchors even are and how to think about that?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I'll back up just a Little bit to say once you realize what you shouldn't be doing anymore. Right. Then the framework for actual collaboration is really simple. I mean, I brought it down to three things. Number one, people who are involved have to, each one of them have something to lose and something to gain. Secondly, they have to be willing to show their cards, meaning they have to be willing to engage without subterfuge, no guile. And then thirdly, they have to have a desire to win, not just for me, but for whoever's involved. Like, they have to be a pusher. You know, they've got to be a trier. They've got to be, you know, they can't be taking up a seat. So to me, these are the three things. If you get these three things together, those, those are. If one of those is missing, you will not have collaboration is my premise. Right. But then the anchors are. It's like, okay, let's say I got all of that right and now we're starting to go, we've got the right people, they've said the right things. And I'll bring in Melanie Courtright, our, you know, fearless leader from Insights association, who talks about showing your cards does not mean, you know, sharing trade secrets. You can still have that, you know, coopetition kind of thing where you are showing the cards needed to be involved in this collaboration. And not having guile about those, it doesn't mean, you know, looking under the kimono. Okay, so, you know, I just want to be really clear with that. But if, even if you have all three of those things and you go, okay, we're winning, you know, something goes wrong. And so I created seven anchors to say, look, I don't know what will go wrong because a lot of different things will go wrong. And when something goes wrong, you do check your framework. Do I have A, do I have B, do I have C? I do. Okay, well then what's going on here? Well, maybe a newly complex issue is emerging that we've never thought of before, we've never dealt with before. And so I created these anchors and certainly I'm sure someone will think of some better ones or some additional ones to it, but they're things that when I start feeling very adrift and, oh my gosh, this thing is not working, I can say, is it? This is it, this is it. That. Because there's not one formulaic answer. And so if I'm going to solve it and get us back on track, I'm going to need to anchor down and stop for a minute. And this is where kind of comes in my metaphor that I love sailing. We are, you know, my husband and I are sailors. And you know, every different bottom, whether it's sandy or rocky or muddy, you have to drop a different anchor for that in order to hold your ship fast.

And I did. I did have my moment when I was reading as a. I was. And I was going to ask you now to elaborate, right. And be like, for those of us who aren't sailors, like, boats have different anchors, question mark, right?

Yeah, they do. It's really interesting.

And you can lose it.

You know, you're just going to start drifting again. You know, if you don't have the right one, it's not going to hold. And if you need to stop and really hold yourself and say, wait, wait, wait, what's going on? You need to get somewhere that you can just get everything stopped properly and get your brain back engaged. Right. And quit reacting. And so you drop an anchor. And so I have these seven of them just to say, could it be this? Could it be this? Could. And it basically gives you another mindset to come at the problem. Not a solution for the problem. But say, let me ask myself this set of questions and see if this unveils what the true problem is. And maybe I could get back on course and as soon as I realize what's happening, then I can pull that anchor back up. It served me. And now I can get back on course.

What I love about that metaphor, like that comparison being like you, when I think of an anchor, super novice, non A sailor over here, right. You assume the, the re. The way anchors work is because they're heavy and they are heavy enough to counterbalance my boat. Right. Like that's, that's how that works. And if you have a heavy enough anchor, you're not going to go anywhere. And you just have your heavy anchor and you're good to go. Right? That's what we would think. But you can't just put weight behind something and not enough weight isn't going to do it. And I think that's a really good comparison with business too. If it's the wrong. The right anchor can be a lot lighter, not as heavy of a load. And same thing, you can't load up your boat with so many heavy anchors.

No. And, and you actually, you, you didn't know this, but this is even better, you know, depth to the metaphor, and that is that you can't have too heavy of an anchor. You have to be able to go, maybe this one, maybe that one, because you can drop an anchor. But at some point, if you want to get going again, you got to pull that anchor up.

Right.

And if it is too heavy, which I'm reading a book right now about a guy solo sailing through the Bahamas and sure enough, he's having this problem where he's dropped an anchor and he actually has to figure out a way to rewench something in order to bring it up because he has dropped too heavy of an anchor and. And it has too much line and he himself, manning the boat, cannot pull this up. So this is also a cautionary tale to us of don't get thinking just, oh, you know, get in a rut and be like, I'll drop this, I'll drop this one. No, you, you really need to be flexible and say, you know, let's try this one maybe, you know, just because this one worked last time doesn't mean it's going to work to get us back on course the next time.

Yeah, right. Yeah. It's so good with like status quo and sunk cost.

Right.

Like, we're getting so, so many good ones getting back on course. I mean, I really got the metaphor extended here.

I love it. Well, now that we've introduced the idea of anchors, can you share just what the seven are a little bit about those for people?

Yeah, the basics, things. The first one I start with is ABC to abh, which means get a mindset of away from always be closing and move to always be helping. Right. So you talked about this, you know, moving away from a scarcity mindset and moving into an abundance mindset. When people feel like their scarcity, they're going to be always trying to get their way. And that's kind of that old slimy salesperson. Always be closing. Always be closing. And instead, if you believe in abundance and you believe that we can all get what we want and actually even have a deeper win, then you will move to always be helping. So that's my first one. My itchy backs one is actually one of my favorites.

It's very weird to say because it kind of gets creepy thinking about scratching someone else's back, especially in the business world world, you know, but this is.

About helping you cultivate a new way of seeing people where you really start seeing people always for their need. And I would liken this to why you and I are friends, because we very quickly moved into an itchy back friendship. Like, oh, what do you need? Oh, you want to be on my podcast? Oh, you have a new book coming out. Okay, come be on my Podcast. Oh, okay. You have this, like, I'm free to give to you because I am not only in this always be helping mindset, but also I am thinking about being very cognizant about what you need and actually bringing it to the surface because guess what? You need something. And I do too. And I'm not afraid to say, oh, I have a book too. Do you want to have me on your podcast? Right. And so it's about really becoming more and more astute at spotting other people's itchy backs. It's like, hey, I think your back looks itchy. Do you want me to get that for you? And you know, and so it's about like, you and I, what we do is try and bring people around us. And I don't eschew people out of the group because they need something. I bring them in closer. And yeah, I mean, we could go through all seven of them, but the next one's digital first. It's just about, hey, get quicker to doing things digitally because you're going to move quicker in this world. So I go into a lot of good examples about that. I like the vice versa one. And that's about, you know, I've always thought about it this way. Like, for example, in social media. I met this person on social media, okay, Now I need to actually try and meet them in person. Now that might be on a zoom, but, you know, face to face call. You know, you and I met in a chat room during a webinar. Well, how do I then have an individual coffee with her? How do I see her at a conference and then make sure that we have a follow up? I met her at a conference. How do I get an email to her? Like, it's about constantly vice versa in your life. The next one I have is called Uber or Lyft. And it is a cautionary tale about minding your personal preferences and realizing that your personal preferences can take you where you did not intend to go. So I use the quick example of, hey, do you love Uber? Do you love Lyft? And of course, people are die hard one way or the other. And I say, okay, well, great. When was the last time you got in that car and you told the driver to take them anywhere they wanted to go? And people are stunned. I'm like, of course that's stupid. I would never do that. And I'm like, you kind of do that. You do that with, you know, when you get on LinkedIn, you let LinkedIn take you wherever LinkedIn is wanting you to Go. You know, when we go to a conference, if we're not careful, we, you know, do the bidding of the conference event people, you know, it's just like, no, you gotta go and do your own bidding. And that is you can't collaborate with people if you're not awake and alive to where you're intending to go. And the last two are the rule of 15. We've touched on that a little bit. But it is about creating content that inspires collaboration and basically paying it forward so that you do get the opportunity. You can't walk into a room, be like, hi, would you like to be in a joint venture with me tomorrow? That's like walking into a cocktail party and being like, hey, so you want to go to bed with me tonight?

It's just so icky and so not appropriate. And you won't get invited back to that cocktail party party if you act like that.

And so it's about, like, really being mindful of how you show up in multiple contexts with people so that you can get the opportunity to collaborate with them. And the last one is be the zebra. And I truly believe that unseen is unsold. If you look, walk, talk, act like everybody else, there's no differentiation. And you're never going to get an opportunity for an interesting collaborative, you know, moment.

Yeah, definitely. I love all the, the titles of them and the comparison points. And I know we could dig in on multiple. The one that I already told you that I wanted to make sure we talked about, and I wanted to have you come on the show to talk about this before I even knew you had a book that was coming out, because I've heard you speak on this topic multiple, multiple times is about the LinkedIn cocktail party, which is. You sort of touched on it, but not, not, not enough.

We need to talk about not enough.

Well, I, I do talk about LinkedIn. It's like, about a mindset shift and say, you know, instead of thinking of it as a social media platform, why don't you think about it as an online cocktail party that's going on all the time. This already helps us line ourselves up for better collaboration. Right? Because in my opinion, who doesn't like a cocktail party? I happen to enjoy them an awful lot, you know, and so this cocktail party idea is helpful in number one, if you're going to host a party, you're going to clean your house, right? So I'm not going to invite you over and ask you to step over my dirty underwear, right? So it is about. You have to show up correctly. Like, you have to get it clear, make it very easy for someone to connect with me. That's kind of like setting up for itchy bags, right? If I don't even know what I need. And then, you know, I see you at a conference and you're like, hey, Priscilla, well, what can I do for you? And I'm like, I don't know. You know, I'm not ready. I haven't cleaned up my house.

It's amazing how many people do that. I mean, just crazy. But go ahead, keep going.

No, I totally agree.

And, you know, you and I literally were just at another conference, and I asked you what you needed. You asked me what my needed was. We divided and conquered. And we, you know, during the day, hey, hey, I found this person. Hey, you should talk with Melina about this, because this is what she does about, you know, have you listened to her podcast? Have you done. And it's basically trying to be of service to other people, right? But you have to clean your own house up for that. And then secondly, another point to the cocktail party is this idea of, you know, curating a great guest list. You and I have already touched on this. It's like when you want to collaborate, you talk about it so much that you invite more. More collaboration, right? Because you start narrowing the people that you want to be with and you want to be around and people who are going to be willing to get involved with, you know, with this method of seeing the world, Right? And then, you know, one of the other points about the cocktail party is that you got to be a good conversationalist. You got to know what's important to other people. You can't sit there and blab on about yourself. You, again, don't get invited back.

You know, I don't bark at people.

I don't stand at the front of the cocktail party and say, hey, I'm here. Come on over. I'm ready to talk.

Everyone, hello, I've arrived.

LinkedIn. It's time to begin.

I'm here now.

Oh, my God.

I love it.

I love it. But that's what you. It's so, so funny.

We're only laughing so hard because we know people who do that, Right? And it doesn't help them.

Right? It doesn't. And I think. Were you the.

You.

I don't know if it's fair to ask if you were the first person I heard say this. I feel like the origination of the phrasing to not pitch slap people came from you. From where have I heard you say that.

Yes, many times.

I talk about that all the time.

I feel I attribute this to you and I think you were the first person I heard say it. And I love it because we get pitch slapped all the time and it's unpleasant and it's so clear. I find it fascinating and I tell people all the time to look in this weird aspect of our brains, right. We can immediately, I can low from a subject line and like a half a second glance of an email or I can see the LinkedIn message and instantly know spam. Like spam, spam, spam. Like you are not, you're not here for anything about me and you know it so quickly. And we don't realize how often we're actually sending messages like that. That person might be actually wanting to genuinely help people, but it comes off so obviously.

Yeah, 100%. And it's, it's not that you can't ask people for things, it's that you ask at the wrong point of the relationship.

Like, hi, nice to meet you. I know how to perfectly revolutionize your business.

Yes.

People just like you have been working with me for this long of a time. Like, you don't know anything about me.

Yeah, yeah. My favorites on LinkedIn are like, Priscilla, so nice to meet you. What is the biggest challenge you are facing at Little Bird Marketing? I'm like, I only tell that to.

People when they've bought me two glasses of wine.

The biggest challenge I'm facing is my feed clogged up with people pitching me without knowing anything about me.

Exactly, exactly.

And so all of us feel like this is a repellent and yet we continue to act that way if we are not mindful of this etiquette. Right. And it is a choice for us to work this way. It's not always convenient. Sometimes we really do need revenue in our company. Sometimes we really do need to, you know, have more book sales or be called more often or fill a class, you know, or what we, we all have these needs, but we have to, you know, basically, you know, look at the way we're approaching things and when we're approaching things and if we've paid it forward enough to approach more directly. And I got to tell you, you, you, you said that you really like this rule of 15. And I think it's really important to also say the counterbalance to it, which is the rule is you need to have for 15 interactions, 10 of them that show you're interesting. Just be, just be interesting. It's a cardinal rule against you know, of the web. Don't be boring. Right, Right. People say, oh, people don't read anymore. No, people don't suffer through reading horrible crap anymore. You know, they won't read your, your, your stupid crap. But if you write something amazing, you will find it. You know, people will flock to it, right? And they'll bring a friend and bring a friend. Right? So, you know, this idea that you need to be interesting is key. Then four things, Interactions, posts, however you want to look at it, four things need to show that you're interested. Hey, Molina, what do you need? Or how's the podcast going? Or, you know, you need to do four things like, oh, hey, I wrote this whole guide up that could help you. Here it is for free. Okay, see you later. You know, something helpful, overtly helpful without wanting something in return. But then you have earned the right for one moment. That is your, as Nacho Libra would like to say, your glory days in the sun.

Right?

So you get a chance to tell people what you do and say what you need. And too often people take. Take these things too literal and go the opposite way and be like, oh, I'll just be online doing everything for. This is an altruistic hour.

Right.

We all have things that need to get done, but you have to do it in the right way and in order to collaborate and have big wins. If you follow those 10 and then the four and you make sure you are clear when you give your one message about what you need and how you need it, people will flock to help you with it.

Yeah, I love it. And it's a great, you know, rule of thumb there for those 15 and you don't.

You only make.

This is also just, I think, boils back to what you're saying on the knowing what you want and what you need. If you only get one ask for every 15 things you do, you better make sure it's the right thing. And know what you want, know how to ask for it, know who to ask for it, and how to put that out there instead of, you just can't be like, me, me, me, ask, ask, ask. And so that thoughtfulness is, is really easy, important.

Yeah. It boils down to lead with giving.

Right.

For sure you'll get. But you gotta lead with giving.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we already know that we could talk all day and night through the cocktail party and, and the after party and whatever. But for everyone who is now so excited to get your book and learn more about you and connect and collaborate, what is their best path?

Path to do so well, I have a new site for the book. It's Priscilla McKinney.com. so, yeah, it's, it's super fun. I know you'll put it in the show notes, so very, very easy. But I am on LinkedIn a lot. I teach social influence and digital transformation to groups. So, you know, I'm out there a lot. Not going to be hard to find me. And so those are probably the two best places. If you're interested in what we do at Little Bird Marketing, we do have a lot of, of overtly helpful free resources. So littlebirdmarketing.com and of course the resources that are at forward slash resources, very straightforward. But all those different ways you can find also who I'm connected to. Maybe that person could help you. I'm here to collaborate and to that extent, you know, obviously I'd love for you to read this book and give me your feedback and tell me what I'm missing in my anchors and how you know what I'm going to do for this second edition.

I love it. And we'll definitely have links to everything in the show notes so you can follow Priscilla on LinkedIn and connect and check out the website, get your copy of the book, share one with a friend right by two. That's the way to do that. Yeah. So anyway, well, thanks again, Priscilla. I always love chatting with you. I think everybody can tell. And it was great to have you on the show once again.

Oh, my gosh. Friend of the podcast forever. So any favor you need, you just, you know, give my Celia ring. And thank you. Thank you for having me on. And hey, for someone who wants to, like, start an interesting collaboration and wants to lead with giving, maybe go out and give an amazing rating to this podcast, the Brainy Business podcast, because this is how more people find it. So do her a favor. This is your good deed for the day. Call out.

Oh, thanks, Priscilla. Appreciate you.

Thank you again to Priscilla McKinney for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I love every time I get to talk to Priscilla on and off the mic.

She's so much fun.

And as you can tell, we laugh and joke a lot. When we were both speaking in Amsterdam last year at the iiex Europe conference, I was able to catch one of her sessions when she Talked about treating LinkedIn like a cocktail party. And it was so fun and engaging and relatable. Everyone loved it. I knew that I wanted to have her back on at some point to.

Talk about it, but the first episode.

We recorded had just come out just a few weeks before the event, so I knew I needed a little bit more space. And when we were both speaking at iiex North America earlier this year, she mentioned she had a book coming out soon and I knew I had my perfect opportunity. Of course she talks about that LinkedIn cocktail party in the book and we got to discuss it a little bit today. And I'm so glad she's written this book because it can help anyone to look at working with others. Whether it's networking or working with partners or peers, or even connecting with your competition, it can all help you and your business to grow in amazing ways. I connect with and share great things about my competition all the time. This podcast would be very different if I didn't. There are people who I feature on this show who do work in very similar space to me. We may have the same clients or perhaps someone chooses them instead of me. Sometimes it's all good. There's plenty to go around and I know that the long game and good intentions will always win out. Being generous and thoughtful in the way you interact with everyone, even your competition, goes a long way if you aren't quite convinced yet, or frankly, if you're fully bought in and ready to start implementing. Either way, you need to pick up Priscilla's book Collaboration is the new competition. She has lots of examples and insights making the case for collaboration. There are even some from big companies like Coca Cola who are known for not sharing a lot. Everyone's collaborating these days, so you should too. There are of course links to get your copy of Collaboration is the new competition in the show notes and in them you're also going to find links to tons of related past episodes, ways to connect with Priscilla and myself, a full time stamped summary of our discussion, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthebrainybusiness.com 3 and thank you again to Priscilla McKinney for joining me on the show again today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me next time for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You won't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be Fox.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.