479. The Housefly Effect: Small Changes, Big Impact

Welcome to episode 479 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Ava Vandenbrook and Tim Denhare, co authors of the Housefly Effect. Ready? Let's get started. You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer. Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. You know that moment where you realize there's a fly in your house? It has likely been there for quite a while. Side note, I looked it up to have an accurate number or something to share here and learned that there are, get this, over a hundred hundred species of bug in your house at any given time on average, which is terrifying. I stopped myself from going down an Internet rabbit hole. But you do you if you want to know more about that and don't share with me whatever you find. I know I always say to share with me. I don't know if I can handle it. So anyway, Housefly has been minding its own business and you didn't notice or care about it. And you aren't thinking about it being there until it buzzes past your ear or it's in your line of vision. And then, oh my goodness, it is all you can pay attention to. You can't get work done. You're so distracted by this rogue intruder in your house. So you've probably felt this way before, right? But why in the world am I talking about this? Well, it's because that phenomenon is what gave my guests today, Dr. Ava van den Brook and Tim Denhare, the name and theme of their new book, the Housefly Effect. It is full of fascinating examples and insights and before we dig into it, let me tell you a little bit about each of them. Ava is a behavioral economist and the founder of Behavioral Insights Netherlands. She specializes in using behavioral science to improve public policy and has extensive experience working with government agencies and ministries. Her work spans a variety of real world applications from interventions in education to to campaigns promoting use of the library among low literacy adults. She's also a lecturer and public speaker known for making complex behavioral insights accessible and practical. Tim is a creative strategist, copywriter and founder of Brain Creatives, an agency that combines advertising and behavioral Science with over 20 years in advertising, Tim has helped shape campaigns for some of the world's biggest brands. His work focuses on finding creative ways to connect behavioral insights with marketing goals. His approach blends curiosity with pragmatism, drawing on his love hate relationship with advertising to question conventional wisdom and explore new ideas in behavioral influence. One last thing before we get into the conversation is to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with Ava Tim and myself and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainy business.com 479 now let's jump right in. Ava Tim, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

Thank you, thank you.

Yes. I'm so excited to have you here. Before we jump in and start talking about houseflies, can you share a little bit about yourselves and the work that you do for everyone who doesn't you yet know you sure?

So I'm a. A behavioral economist who turned into a sort of a policy advisor, I guess. So in a. A normal week I would spend a couple of days in the HA advising Dutch ministries on how policies play out in the real world and experimenting with that, seeing what actually comes out when, when real people come into play. And every now and then I do I give lectures at universities or. Yeah. Set up behavioral teams within ministries that kind of things.

Awesome.

And Tim, well, I'm actually from the world of advertising. Was a creative director for quite a while, some well known agencies. Then I started to realize that our business was really changing because of neuro and behavioral insights coming in and that it wasn't just a question of adjusting a little bit, but that this would really change the way we did our work. So I started my own company called Brain Creatives which has the motto inspired by science. We make creative campaigns inspired by science. I also started talking about it, giving lectures about our approach which led to more lectures which led to the idea of writing a book which led to being introduced to Ava and well, here we are.

I love that, love the way that those paths came together and so you two just met when for book time, right?

Yeah. So it was actually, yeah, it was our publisher who, who thought maybe these two should talk. At first I was a bit reluctant actually. I was like, man, I can do this by myself. What should I do with a marketeer? But then actually we met and it was, yeah, we went on and didn't stop talking ever since. Like now we're sending WhatsApp messages every hour of the day and the night, I guess about behavioral stuff we encounter.

In the world Yeah, I love that. I can totally appreciate where you're coming from, Ava. I. Having written three books, I'm always amazed by people that co author anything. Like just anything but a book especially. And there's always this question of how you can get like do you have it feel like a singular voice or how do you shout out and be. I've seen some where it's like this author says this, but this author says that. Like how do I even know who's who or how to do? I. I would be totally lost. So for anybody who is actually listening, just as an interesting point here, I know a lot of people that listen either write books or other papers and things. What advice do you have for anybody who is going to be working with a. A co author? Any tips?

I would definitely say jump in because it's so much nicer. The whole process is. Well, I've. I've only written an academic book before on my own and that was a. An ordeal really. Right. It's. It's also a different kind of book, I guess, but still this project and also the. The following projects felt much more like a joy and a project that is collaborative and it's just great to have someone else reading and then someone else writing and you reading. So it grows twice as fast, I guess. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think the choice we made was to have both our voices in the book and Atley exaggerate the difference a little bit. So they're typical Tim parts where I played part of the sort of opportunistic ad guy that I'm not really as bad as I see you in the book and very straight scientist and well, those who know her know she's a little bit different than that. So we play up the differences not just for fun, but also to give people, readers, two different perspectives or perspectives on some issues and give them an opportunity to figure out which perspective works for them. Or maybe they come somewhere in the middle.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was fun actually playing it out a bit. It's almost like we're acting ourselves. Yeah.

Right. Be like caricatures almost of the. Yeah. Extending that idea. That's fun. I like that. Well, I didn't think either of you came off bad in the book, as you were saying, Tim, so no worries. That wasn't. But you know, being a marketing person myself, maybe that's why I'm just as bad, I guess, maybe approach. So. But I would love to dig in a little bit and talk about the book because as I had mentioned to you, you know, this podcast. And so I'm, I'm also, you know, applied behavioral economist with the background in marketing, as we said. And so it's like, it's very similar to the two of you here. So I like live somewhere in the middle, I guess. So how that comes together. And so the people listening to the show are familiar with different terms from behavioral science, behavioral economics, thinking about how to apply them. And there is a brand new effect that you introduced with the titling of your book and how you've brought it all together. So can you share a little bit about house flies and what they have to do with behavioral science?

Yeah, well, I'm usually the one who has to talk about the housefly because I actually had to sell it to Ava that name our book after this. It all starts with our fascination for, I guess you could say things where the proportionality is a little bit off. Things where you do you make a slight change and the effect is big. And we were looking for examples of that and also for a nice metaphor for it. And we were thinking about the butterfly effect. And then we were thinking about this famous nudge of the fly in the urinal. So that all came together to be honest. And we're honest about it in the book as well. We were also looking for something with effect in it because we know people love effects. And there's even the effect effect, which means people think something is more interesting once you name it an effect. So we said, let's go with that.

I think he actually used this kind of put in the door thing on me. He first told me the effects story. So then we were looking for something that we could call it something effects. And that's how this house fly finally got in. But now by now I'm sort of convinced.

Yeah, so basically it's about small things, everyday things that have a larger effect on behavior than you might think. And fly in the urinal, which I think most listeners know about. And maybe.

Well, here's what's amazing. Believe it or not, in over 450 episodes we have not talked about the fly in the urinal ever on the show. So potentially there are plenty of people who have no idea what you're talking about. And it's the perfect time to talk about that housefly for whichever one of you wants to jump in and share what you're talking about.

Yes, I'll take housefly jizzies and then if I can do the more. More interesting stuff. No. Okay, so Schiphol Airport, which is airport actually very close to where we are today had the problem that guys when using the urinal wouldn't aim too well and the floors would get wet and they would have to clean them. And that costs a lot of money. But it's also very inconvenient for travelers when a Toyota is closed down. And they came up with this little nudge to paint the fake fly inside the urinal. And this changed the behavior effectively. It said that it's saves them €40,000 a year. And the interesting thing is that it's not something that an advertising or marketing person would have thought of. We would have made a campaign with a little joke about aiming or with some deep purpose. And why about we believe in a great traveling experience, but we wouldn't have come up with that. And it's so fascinating that sometimes huge campaigns feed fail to change behavior and then a little fly just does it and people don't even know why. Even the people who, who are actually who. Who see that their behavior is changed by it, they say, well, it just happens.

Yeah. And I've been. I mean there were people at international conferences with behavioral economists who asked me about this fly in the urinals at schipo and I, of course I. I've not been to the man spoilers. So I, I didn't know whether it was still there, whether it was true. I just thought all these economists know about it. But then when I tried it out, just the idea of the title to people here in the Netherlands, actually most women wouldn't have heard of it. So it's not that famous here, I think.

Yeah, but it is, you know, just really amazing. Like you're saying, Tim, like what you were saying there that the, like everybody would say like the great thing of the fly is like that doesn't influence me. Like I, I wouldn't have been one of those people that made a mess or whatever. I'm always careful. Blah, blah, whatever. Right. It's like, well, you know, the. Isn't it. It's a reduction of what they. Spillage is the term. Right? Gross. This is why I don't talk about it because I think, yuck. Like I hate the idea of it. I've never brought it up. Exactly. That's why I didn't want this. But you know, I get it. It's. But it reduced by like 80% or something, right? I mean it's reduction. And so you know, whether people realize it or not, it impacts their behavior. So then you like, you expand on this idea of the house fly throughout the book. I'M excited for when I got of course an early edition that's you know, in a Word document. So it just says like there's apparently there are going to be pictures of flies all throughout the book, which I'm very excited to see when it comes to fruition on that. But you know this idea that it's like the little thing that we're like swatting away. Right. So like that's where it's like, it's small but it can be such a pest that it's going to totally change my behavior or the whole room because even though it's so small.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course it's. So we, we have different families of flies. I'm partially a biologist, so I had the most fun in coming up with Latin names with the funny subspecies and all that. But we, we basically we start with a sort of a self deception fly. Because what you're saying is just, it's just that that is the most effective thing we know in the environment that we tend to ascribe to other people these, this kind of, what is it, vulnerability for these effects and completely overlook or deny that they're also affecting us. Right. So everyone feels like, yeah, these nudges, that's all about other people. It's not me. I know about these nudges. Right. So of course they don't affect us. But even us and the people that listen to your show, of course we.

Are vulnerable to them definitely. Well, can you share a few examples maybe of some of your houseflies and some of those key effects that I will say there are plenty of examples throughout where it's like, okay, yeah, I know this study. I, I remember this thing and there were so many where for me it's like, oh my gosh, I've never heard of that thing. And so I always think that that's really fun. So do you have a favorite house fly or a place where you start good stories or anything?

Yeah, we have, yeah, a couple of favorites definitely. I really like all these time related flight. So all these things like order effects, let's call it with a dirty word, hyperbolic discounting with all these things about how people sort of underestimate how much the timing of a decision actually influences their choice. And also when I'm, when I'm giving talks about these kind of topics for policymakers, they're always flabbergasted by the idea that actually. So we have some kind of a. What's that? So I even forgot the name of the effect I Think it's a sort of a diversity bias that if you choose now what kind of lunch you would have over the next couple of days, you choose three or four different things because variety and all of that. And then every time you get to the counter of the canteen in the department of. I don't know. Well, just this, of course you would take the same very Dutch, very unhealthy meat filled crockets and all these policymakers would nod and say yes, yes, yes, you're right, I do exactly that. Whereas if you would ask me at the beginning of the week I would order a couple of salads and different things and so these kind of time. What's that? Time related flies are my favorites.

Really?

Yeah. Do we didn't have an effect for effect name for this one?

I'm not sure. No, I know that. And now, now I feel like I don't even want to throw out the thing. But like any idea? Because I think I'm going to be off. Right. We're now in our own heads about what the name is. But I'll make sure to grab it and we'll talk about when I do the. The outro. But I. Yeah, that just the. That it's like you said that diversification. The diversification. That's an oversimplification. Right. That you think that you're going to want more choices. This is also why. So I always overpack for everything.

Yeah.

And we'll bring like six outfits when I'm speaking one time and going to a one day conference because I don't know what I'm going to like when I get there. Or like say you bring too many books. You bring a bunch of books on vacation and then you just end up reading some sort of magazine or you know, something that's. Or playing games on your phone and you don't read any of them.

Yep.

Yes. What about you, Tim? Do you have a favorite? I saw you grabbed a book.

Well, being from a marketing perspective, I'm always very much fascinated by placebo effects because I think you.

Yay.

This is part of my list is.

Basically turning the brand into a placebo and making people think that if it's a sound system it sounds better and if it's food it tastes better. And even if their phone isn't working well, the guys at the phone company have a little trouble today. You know, you're more lenient because you like the brand. So it's not so bad. So yeah. Near a showing. These are actually actual placebos that we hand out. And what I love is that even if you tell somebody that you're about to give them a placebo, it will still work because they're expecting the placebo effect and the nocebo effect, where people actually get the side effects from something. And then you see these all over in daily life, like the little button that says close the doors in the elevator. Chances are nothing is behind the button, the door is going to close anyway, but you feel more in charge. There are people who hear all their audio systems who think they can hear whether they have one kind of electricity or another kind of electricity, you know, and we actually experience all this stuff. And I think for marketers to, to remember that if your brand is thrown, then any experience with that brand will be more positive because of the placebo effect. It's so important to, to, to really to realize and also invest in. And then I think another effect that is sort of linked to that, in my head at least, is the mere exposure effect. You have this wisdom that you see in social media, this, this meme or quote that's attributed to Einstein that says the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and explain expecting a different result. Whereas we would probably say that's the definition of great marketing, because I've seen brain scans of, of people watching TV commercials that are creative and surprising. And the first time they see it, there's a very negative response. But the fourth or the fifth time, it's pure joy. And this is the effect of mere exposure. So I think the idea that, well, sometimes in marketing we can look at these effects and say, oh, that's a little trick that I'm going to use to sell more. And I think if we look at these effects and say, okay, how are these going to help me build a brand in the long run, make people care about my brand and make the brand into a very powerful placebo, I think that's a more interesting approach in business.

Yeah, I'm so glad. Obviously I audibly cheered when you brought up placebos because that was the first in the book where, you know, I was like, I have never heard of this brand Zebo. Apparently that you can buy that. They have Amazon reviews saying it like worked just as advertised. So. So, hey world, you can actually go buy placebo pills on Amazon that are, you know, nothingness, but that they can help. And it's like, helps with calm or energy or whatever. And it's just like, like artificial sugar pill or whatever thing. Hilarious. Like, I think that's amazing and that people like you were saying, though, even though, you know, it's a placebo, it can actually still work and do that act of doing something. Or when I had mentioned that to my husband, he was saying, oh, yeah, like, for kids, right? So it's like, if you're gonna give, like, kids, my goodness, my kids, you know, there's something wrong all the time. Like, oh, no, it hurts. I need medicine. I need medicine. Right? And so if I had, you know, we have placebos that we can give. I think that that's helpful to be able to share there. I have a couple others that I made some notes on that I thought were interesting in addition to that. So one of the things I really liked is looking at this, you know, so framing aspect. I always go back. I think framing is such a key thing that anybody can really start with, right? That how we say something differently can make an impact. And you have the example of the trash cans with the. The weather. And I'll let you explain it. But the quote that was there saying that even when things can't be simplified, you can get them to look less complicated. Which I think is really, you know, important in the way that we're thinking about it. Where if you say, like, it's just a complex process, it's scientific, it just is that, like. Yes. And right. Like, so, you know, Thaler and Sunstein and in nudging, they talk about the megapixels on a camera, right? Like, megapixel means nothing to anybody. But if you say this is poster size versus billboard size, like, I get what that is. So can you share your. The example you had of some of that too?

I'm thinking of the. Of the bins example. Trishkins. Oh, yeah, of course. It was actually about the weather. No, it's yours. It's yours.

So this would happen all the time, right.

We would come up with some bias or some principle that we wanted to find some example of. And then Tim would come up with this brilliant example.

Well, actually, if I did some research into whether or not people understand the weather report, and as it turns out, they don't. If it says 20% chance of rain tomorrow, they just don't know if it means that means 20% of the day it will be raining or the rain will be 20 will cover 20 of the country or whatever, they just don't understand. And then we found this American, maybe, you know it, weather report that has a trash can. Oh, meter that when instead of saying it's gale force 12 or whatever, just tells you where Your trash can will end up so, you know, 12 you, it'll all be done. And for four means it will be in the neighbor's garden, and one means it will probably fall over but will still be in your garden, which we thought was such a clever way to take steps from a number that doesn't mean anything to anybody to a very vivid image. And I think another interesting example of this is if you look at the scale for weighing people, very few people in the world actually need to know their weight as a number. Maybe if you're going in a hot air balloon, you have to tell people your weight. And maybe if you're going, going to get surgery, they need to know it. But really what you want to know is, is my diet working? And 57 kilos isn't an answer to that. So I love this scale that I think behavioral scientists were involved in that just shows you a line that's going up and down over two weeks, which answers the question you actually have and makes it very visual.

Yeah. And then I've had. So Dan Arielle's been on the show talking about shape and in that case using color, you know, to where it's saying if it's shades of blue, you've lost a little or a lot. If it's gray, you've gained a little bit or a lot. And you know, green is that you're maintaining. Right. So, and so it's interesting where, like you said, the number can be very demotivating and confusing. Right. I don't know what, what that even means. Like, I guess that's good. I don't know. But yeah, being able and how it's trending and different stuff. So that's, that's a good.

Yeah.

We both work for people in, in banking and I think the same goes for looking at your. It's. Well, the number on your bank account, they don't really tell you if you're spending wisely or if you're spending too much. And that's the information you would actually want to see in your bank app. Right. How am I doing this month? How am I doing this year? Should I spend more? Should I invest more? Should I save more? Should I live a little? And I find it fascinating that we have all these numbers, all this data, but that isn't really giving us answers to the questions we really have about should I change my behavior and how should I change it?

Yeah, well, I think that's a good lead in too. You have some about with herding and social proof. And I appreciate that you have come to similar terminology that I have sort of made up on my side of things that I, I talk about unintentional normalizing. Right. So. And you had some similar language that you used in the book when it's if we use essentially the wrong herds for social proof in that way. So if you're trying to tell somebody like good job, you use less energy than everybody else, like those things can backfire, right?

Yeah, enormously. So there's a couple of examples that were actually put on big billboards in my area where I live in my hometown. And they would say things like here 87% of girls have been grabbed by men or so. And I was just shocked to read that it turned out to be some kind of an, I think it was an Amazon prime kind of campaign. And they were definitely well meaning. But my, these things really harm. Right. Two ways also for victims and for perpetrators. I was really shocked that people were still so daring to put these kind of things out there. And also in more innocent kind of areas of life, like the municipality of Amsterdam had just a couple of years ago, they had these big posters out saying don't do this or that and then putting up, I think big garbage binge with broken chairs and stuff and bags next to it. So he would have all over the place the wrong example. Beautiful. Oh man, doesn't anyone tell them? And then luckily at some point someone told them, apparently I did send a letter, but I don't think it was me. And they cleared up the example and actually now it looks better. So there's progress.

But what's fascinating is that for many people who are quite clever at making campaigns, at changing behavior, their intuition is completely off when it comes to negative social proof. And they really think if I show the big numbers, if I show people how big this problem is, they will probably change their behavior, which obviously they won't. And I think it has a lot to do with, in certain cases this does work. If you want the government to change something, you have to go to some representative and tell them this is a bigger problem than you thought. It also had to do, I think a little bit with ego. Sometimes if you're responsible for solving a problem, it's nice if everybody knows that it's a big problem. But my latest example was I was in the, in the Cinema with my 14 year old daughter next to me and this commercial against taping came up and it was like a room full of 14, 15, 16 year olds. And it started with more and more teenagers are vaping I was like, am I watching a vaping commercial? Yeah. So I think we will still be discussing this 20 years from now and.

Yeah, well, at least your daughter knows now.

Yeah, yeah, well, and that's, I mean, you say it this way and hopefully everybody that's listening goes, obviously that's bad. Right. Like we shouldn't do that messaging of the vaping. Right. Like we're gonna jump in to be like, well, if everybody else is, I guess I should. Right. And that, like I said, unintentional normalizing that you have there. But we do it all the time where, you know, we look at the, you know, conscious subconscious system one, system two, Deal, right? That you sit down to do your campaign or whatever it is and you go, well, we need to tell people this and you write that ad copy that is just totally counterintuitive to, you know, what you're actually getting people to do. And knowing how in this way those little missteps, those little house flies, I guess, of getting that thing wrong can just be buzzing around in a way that it's not going to be helpful for what it is that you're trying to do. So as you look to, I guess in like why you wrote the book and what you think is, you know, advice, what, what would you hope that people are going to do as they go pick up their copy of the Housefly effect and starting to, you know, use the information. What's, what's the goal for people?

Yeah, so I, I'm really keen on getting people curious for more somehow. So I'd love people to start experimenting themselves. So I'm, I have a nine year old and he's really trying to make his classmates do stuff and things like that. He's the big manipulator now, but. So I would love people to, to try out things on their, I don't know, office mates, partners, whatever, teenager, kids at home, just in order to assess how enormous the influence is that the environment and structure in our environment that it has on us. And I think that would really help people to be a bit more. What's that? Not lenient, but a bit more.

Open or curious.

Yeah, yeah. As in you, you wouldn't judge other people so harshly if you knew what their environment would look like. Right. And it might be social environment that might be, I don't know, stress in terms of money or whatever, time. But it's pretty hard to admit how much this environment changes our behavior and influences it. And I think by experimenting you get the idea you really sort of entertain the idea of it. And yeah, I think, I think it's a useful thing to do for people every now and then.

Yeah, definitely. What about you, Tim? What would you add to that?

Well, to build on that, I think that we really like the idea that we ourselves are the masters of our destiny and that with pure willpower we can do lots of stuff. And then of course with that, with that idea it goes that other people are also masses of their destiny and make their own decisions. So whenever they do something that obsesses, they did so on, on purpose. Which makes it very easy to see people you disagree with as these very bad people. So one thing we're trying to do is, is well, take our own medicine and apply some behavioral science to getting people interested in behavioral science. So we try to, we know that if we go to tell people this, this image that you have about the way your brain works and the way your personality influences your behavior, there may be some barriers. So we're trying to give a lot of examples and tell funny stories to get people to sort of lower those barriers and say, huh, well, it's sort of funny, but I recognize it. So I hope if we can just lower these barriers a little bit and get people to say okay, yeah, well maybe it's not quite the way I thought it was, then that can lead to a different way of looking at yourself.

And, and Tim called it actually. And I really like that, like what we aspire to be is that our book is the gateway drug into behavioral science because that people love about themselves. Right. And sort of, yeah, get people interested in how these working minds of ours work. And that would be.

Yes, I love that we have the well known effects and we're naming all the effects and because we know that people, when they're starting to get interested in behavioral science, that's something that they can grab onto and that they really enjoy that in the, in a meeting they can say, oh, but it's called the phone restorative effect. Obviously it doesn't really change anything that you know what it's called, but it gives you an entrance way, entryway. So we're using that like a kind of udo and by the end AFA is actually explaining to them that there's a lot more to behavioral science and that you should experiment for yourself and not just use these well known effects and, and all that. But it's, it's a way to get people in, I think.

Yeah, yeah, well, a decent way that is as in I'm playing the angry scientists with Glasses again. And then I would put constraints and say, well, it doesn't always apply and all that. But still, I think this is a well thought through entry. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a good spark of inspiration and being able to just show how these things can go together. I think it's fascinating to see how. And I, in a future conversation, you know, we can talk about how you decided how to group different things together. Because I remember early in the podcast I did a series that I called all the Nudges, which of course, but it was like, so you go through it or all the biases. Right. So you go through and then saying like, there are these 200 and something things. And I'm trying to say, like, how would I sort them? Going off of the, you know, that biases codex that I think we all kind of. But it's not a great tool, I don't think. And the way they group the information I don't think is quite right. But so then going in and trying to figure out how would I do it? Right. And then seeing that how you do them is a little bit different than how I have. But I definitely see how they go together in this way if I want to think about it, to apply it in a certain aspect or whatnot. And so I think it's just really cool to see how as you go to shape and think about the interconnectedness of all these things and the way that our brains are wired and everything. I think it's just cool to see how you put everything together. And I enjoyed reading it and I know that our audience will as well. So we'll of course have links for everyone to get their own copy of the Housefly effect and to learn more for everybody who does want to connect with you and to follow you or whatnot. What's their best path to go do that and learn more about you in the book and whatnot.

Yeah. So we're both on LinkedIn under our very Dutch name, so we'll write those.

Out and link them in the show notes. Don't worry.

Yeah. And there's some stuff on Insta and Twitter as well, but not that active, I guess.

Well, getting a little bit more LinkedIn is the best way to get in touch and we have some content there in English as well, so I think that works best.

Yeah, perfect. Well, we, like I said, we'll have links so that they're clickable and we don't have to spell, which is good. And just want to say thank you so much again, Tim and Ava for joining me today. It was really fun. Fun and fascinating to learn and chat with you.

Thanks. That was a lot.

Yeah. Thank you again to Tim and Ava for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation like that house fly buzzing around for me. I really enjoyed this book, as you likely heard in my enthusiasm during our conversation. I'm guessing you know that I read a lot research studies, books, articles and as would be expected when I'm reading books and things specifically within the fields of behavioral economics, behavioral science, there are a lot of studies, insights and approaches that I've seen or heard before. Everyone has their own take and way of weaving things together, which I always find interesting. And that was the case with several case studies in the housefly effect. But there were also so many interesting insights and concepts and case studies and research tidbits I hadn't come across before. It was like a little gold mine of them, like Zebo, the pure honest placebo pills you can buy on Amazon for 24.95 a jar. They even have different kinds including Zebo Relief and Zebo Imagine. Let me tell you, this is fascinating and really shows a lot about the power of the brain, doesn't it? I looked into it more of course, and they have steps on their website to help you set them up for yourself, including to focus on a particular symptom. So you don't just, you know, willy nilly take these things. You want to have a reason you're going to take it. You set up a regimen for it like when and how you're going to take it and that even though you know it's a placebo, that's the honest part, it can still alleviate whatever symptom you're focusing on. It's amazing. I think I might do an episode on this. Let me know if you would be interested and I can start working on it. So come find me on social media as the Brainy Biz or Melina Palmer on LinkedIn to let me know if that is something you think I should do an episode about Zeebo is just one of the many interesting stories and examples from the housefly effect. They also of course talk about the fly in the urinals at the Amsterdam airport. They talk about supermarket shelf placement, casino layouts, household office and hotel thermostats. I think about this one all the time now while I'm traveling, Google's I'm feeling lucky button and so much more. Great stuff with lots of insights for your own life and business. Be sure to get your copy of the Housefly Effect today. There is of course a link in the show notes to make it easy for you, along with links to my top related past episodes and other books, ways to get in touch with Ava, Tim and myself, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 479 and thank you again to Tim and Ava for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful. Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.