196. Anthropology, Market Research & Behavioral Economics with Priscilla McKinney

Welcome to episode 196 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I am so excited to introduce you to Priscilla McKinney, CEO of Littlebird Marketing.

Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello.

Hello everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Today I am very excited to introduce you to Priscilla McKinney, CEO of Little Bird Marketing and host of the Ponderings from the Perch podcast. As you'll hear in our conversation today, I love how thoughtful Priscilla and her team are about those brain associations and little play on word moments like calling the podcast Ponderings from the Perch when the company is Little Bird Marketing, which is of course an extension of the benefits of word of mouth and saying that a little birdie told you something. Priscilla is also ittlebirdmama on Twitter and there are so many other little hidden gems like that. This builds upon Dan Gingis insights on creating remarkable experiences that people can't wait to share and his wiser framework for from the Experience Maker book. It's witty and engaging to have little Easter eggs like this. It helps people feel like they know you and want to connect more. Or for those who wouldn't be a great client, they know early on that they aren't a fit and can self select out which is also a great thing because it doesn't waste either of your time. I won't go on and on about it here as Priscilla and I talk about this and so much more during our conversation today. And and before we jump in, I want to make sure you know that the show notes for the episode which have links to related books and past episodes like that interview with Dan Gingis I mentioned a few moments ago as well as his book are located within the app you're listening to or@the brainybusiness.com 196 now let's jump right in. Priscilla McKinney, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

You do not know how much of.

A fan girl I am, so I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit and just say I am so so excited to be on this.

I feel like I have hit the elite status of, you know, of podcast nirvana. Oh whoa.

That's so fun. I wasn't expecting like you said like on the Spot. That's welcome. Welcome. So happy to have you here. And I would love for you to tell a little bit about yourself to the audience so they can know all about your awesomeness.

Yeah, well, I am the fifth of five girls, which means that I know all about competition, so let's just start there.

I grew up overseas, a very interesting.

Family, and so I eventually ended up in cultural anthropology, which of course, as we all know, is the normal path to being a CEO of a digital marketing agency.

Totally.

So I love that I kind of sit at the intersection of marketing and market research. So I understand all you nerds. And like I said, I'm so proud to be on a brainy podcast for.

For once.

I'm usually just joking around, but I did put some glasses on that people are not able to see through the podcast just to make myself feel a.

Little smarter to be on your show. But we do try and bring really.

Smart strategies to people's marketing efforts. We really believe that every company should have a clear and effective marketing plan.

That's our sing song of the year. And the thing is, there's so much.

Out there that people could do, should.

Do, ought to try, et cetera, et cetera.

It's just so, so much. And so we like to come at it and say, wait a minute, forget what everybody else is doing. Let's understand what you need to do, and let's get smart about what efforts in marketing will actually move the needle for you. So that's what we do day in and day out, whether it's blogging or emails or making videos or doing podcasts or lead magnets, whatever it is, it's all for that goal of driving revenue for companies that are in the B2B space. Yeah.

And so one of the things I really like about behavioral science as a greater field in behavioral economics is that because there wasn't a set path for any of us because it didn't exist, you know, for a lot of us when we were going to college, you know, back in the day that you. It's not like you were a kid and like, when I grow up, I'm going to be this. And this is the path to get there. And so you find that the degrees that people have are so varied, where it's like microbiology and now I do this and my degrees in architecture and like this other, you know, some marketing and. And things like that. And so, of course, you know, ethnography or anthropology, you know, they all come in. And the behavioral sciences is a space where if we're talking about people and how they behave and communicating better. It seems totally natural to me. But I can appreciate that in a, we'll just say traditional marketing world, the idea of an anthropology degree might seem strange.

Yeah, for sure it might seem strange.

And you're right. You and I know better. But there is, you know, really a dearth of data analyst Halloween costumes at Party City.

So nobody knows to aspire to these types of things. But here we are, cultural anthropologists and a behavioral economist. So this is what is possible. There just was no costume for it, right?

Oh, man. Yeah. Well, I don't know what it would even look like, but we'll make one that'll be good. So how then did you find yourself in marketing? How did that transition happen?

Well, I found myself in marketing because I found myself doing it on the side. I was involved in finance and in revenue generation and in banking, and I ended up really talking to clients who were talking about revenue and end up having marketing conversation. Why don't you try this? How about this for Tuesdays and Thursdays?

You know, I'm going to over hyperbole it here as if I was, you know, imagining coupons. But, but you know what I'm saying.

I ended up naturally helping people strategize. And I would usually take the thing they thought was the problem. Say, wait a minute, couldn't it be true that that's actually the best news we've ever heard? And, and if that's true, that's a certain behavior that we could capitalize on. Look at that behavior. And how can we get people to then do some behaviors they weren't doing naturally? You know, so it was like a combination of looking at what people do naturally and what they're not doing naturally and saying, is there a way we could like, you know, bring that into a very organic experience for people and maximize, you know, revenue for the company at the same time maximizing an amazing customer experience. That's all I kept talking about. And lo and behold, you know, I ended up then, you know, taking over a, an ad agency from a girlfriend of mine and she came and sought me out. She's like, you are so good at this and you send me all the referrals. Why don't you just run this place?

Interesting. So that's how I got into marketing. It was, it was a pretty interesting.

Unrepeatable path, probably right, Nice.

Organic. Just sort of not like where the wind blows, right? But we'll just, we'll say destined, right? It was in the stars, meant to be. And it all just sort of came together.

So I think it is about natural genius or native genius. You know, what you kind of can't help but be good at. And, you know, when I have talked with you in the past, I just feel like you can't help but see things the way you see it.

And I hear your native genius come out so fast in a conversation. And, you know, I think it's just.

Our way of looking at the world, which is just a little bit more askew from. From other people. And I think you and I both capitalized our careers on that.

Yeah, agreed.

So just to keep on the anthropological side of stuff for a little bit, what sort of pieces, from your background in cultural anthropology would you say translate into effective marketing? I know that you really work on Personas and looking at people and understanding your segment and who you're marketing to. I'm assuming that's pretty built in on understanding individual people, you know. Can you expand on that?

Yeah, for sure. I think that is super important. I am very known for talking about your ideal client Persona. And people call them all different kinds of things. But my point to people at the very beginning is to say, quit marketing to everybody. Like, think about who the most ideal person is. And I think in terms of really purpose in the world too, it's about not just the money, but also who do you serve the best. And so I like to start there. And I think where it comes from, anthropology is to say, look, we're all humans and we're all operating as these quote unquote, consumers. So as soon as market research and behavioral economists start talking about consumers, I.

Start going, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. They're humans, they're people.

And we operate one way when we are consumers. And then unfortunately, we come into our office and I put my marketing hat on and all sudden I start writing copy that's like very weird and slimy salesy.

And, you know, and I'm like, wait.

A minute, you were just a human a minute ago, and you would not have put up with that.

Right.

And now you're writing it, and now you're charging for it. And I don't understand that. So I think the anthropology part of it is to say, you know, observe people in their natural habitat and understand what is convenient for them, what is natural for them, what is helpful for them, and what delights them and what engages them. And then start building a plan around attracting those people who are the most ideal and using those systems which we all know words are just a You know, vehicle for meaning.

Let's get anthropological.

You know, so how do I really craft amazing messages that are going to convey this meeting and really attract the.

Right person to me?

So I do see it as a real natural fit.

Yeah, well, that's to put in the way that I talk about this with people too, is that like, you know, subconscious is what's doing all the buying and it's going around and has, you know, like, ooh, that looks good and this is exciting and whatnot. And when we sit down and you're working on your strategy for, for your company and you're creating a new product or setting up the pricing or creating that marketing campaign, what part of your brain do you think you're using, right, where you're like, this is important, I need to focus on it right now. And so you're in your conscious space thinking you're talking to other conscious brains. And that's totally wrong. And I love, like you said, like you were a human 10 seconds ago, you would never buy, you would never buy from this. You would read this and go, ugh, what? Right, yeah, such a good, a good point. So what sort of knowing that? Of course, I'm sure it's, you know, for your clients, you help to be the consumer for them. But are there tips that you have of helping people to be humans again when they're thinking about their own messaging and communication?

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I like to take the idea of Personas really a step further. And one of my favorite questions to ask my clients is to get them to think about the last few conversations they've had with their most ideal clients. And we can do this scientifically and actually go focus group this, you know, completely, completely possible in market research world. I can also just query my clients who have been in the business for a long time, but what I want them to tune in on is when your best and brightest client starts talking and they say, ugh, what comes next? What is that level of frustration? Because if we can get to them and start, you know, figuring out how we help them when they're in that mind state, we could get them back into the conscious mind state. Right. And, you know, I certainly don't know as much about non conscious behavior as you do, for sure. But I think what I'm getting at is the same thing that you look at in terms of putting these on the scale of economics and pricing, you know, considerations and, you know, these kinds of things that we think are trivial. But in marketing, you and I both know these Are not trivial at all. They are very fine, tunable, right? So I start there by saying what is really frustrating them, what is hurting them, what is an obstacle in their life. And even if it is not related directly to my product, could I solve that problem in order to build rapport? So now they come back online to their conscious self and now I can have a conversation. But honestly, that person is never going to, you know, give me their attention if their toddler is running down the train track, metaphorically, okay? They think something is going horrifically wrong. I need to go help them get that thing solved and, and then we can have a conversation. And in my opinion, that's kind of what marketing is at least rapport building marketing and conversational marketing and social selling and being able to say, I want to, I'm in this for the long haul, I'm in it for the relationship. I'm going to prove to you that I can build that rapport. I see that kid, I'm a go run after it. I'm going to go get it and then I'm put it in my lap. Now we can have this conversation, right? Yeah.

I got, I got your baby.

It's your baby.

I love how we get there.

I think, I'm pretty sure when we did the recording for your podcast, right away I was talking about sitting on the couch, binge eating Cheetos and drinking wine.

So, you know, so here we are.

Just exactly where we expected ourselves.

Wine and Cheetos, like, I got your baby. This is, this is us. We got it. We're fast friends here. And I think that is because of a lot of the rapport building, as you said, where I've been talking to a lot of people recently and truly for years, But I feel like it's coming up again here. Maybe it's pandemic related or otherwise as people are working on replacing relationships that we feel like we lost. When you're not in person, not having in person conferences for such a long time and meetings and things like that, but people still are not social enough on social media, right? It's too, too many people are like, you know, behind the megaphone saying like, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. And like, let's have a conversation, share someone else's stuff, comment on what they're doing and tag them and, you know, give first and generously this reciprocity that comes with the report and, you know, we feel better when we help other people. There's a lot of value in that anyway, so bringing back some of that what's missing from, you know, pandemic of not being able to be in person with people. Like, hopefully, you know, hopefully we're like fully changing that as moving forward, but that you can bring that back in a social way. And that's where, you know, you and I on LinkedIn both kind of being in the commenting, sharing genuine social people on LinkedIn, I think really stood out. And I think that has helped you to be someone that people remember.

Yeah. And I think what I see you do very effectively is amplify your thought leadership. You have something to offer, you have something to say, and you amplify it in a way that is not broadcast, but what I would refer to as narrow cast. And it's that narrow casting that to me feels very human. And I'm not concerned with making everybody happy with my post. In fact, a good friend of mine posted this morning something about grief. And you know, there's not going to be everybody who's the audience for that. So, you know, he's not for everybody. But you know what? He's for me. And I, I look at that post and I'm like, of course I do business with this person. Of course, you know, this is, this is another human on the planet. And, you know, in that particular moment, you know, I understand where this person is sitting. Well, let me tell you, when this person talks two weeks later and we're talking about making a difference sitting in our chairs as CEOs and that we care about our clients, believe me, I believe him now. So it may have seemed like a frivolous sharing of himself, but now I understand the whole person. And what I see you do, if I may be so bold, is you come out and you give that askew perspective many times and instead of just commenting, liking, like, really great. Loved your article. A lot of times you're saying, yes, this, and, and I love that way that you bring a challenge really to the table. And I think that's a way of saying, hey, not me, me, me, me. But yes, I have a great idea. But me, you, me, you, me, you like what? I've got this and then you got this. So it doesn't have to be, you know, the flip side of the coin, which is just like, it's all about everybody and just go out there and serve and it's just a nice portal. But that amplification of your thought leadership basically is where you can't help but see things just a little differently, even if it's not something that is going to bring you business and so I learned from that. Oh, so she really is a thought leader, then. This isn't about just what she does day in and day out. And I think that the best and brightest professionals are really understanding that.

Yeah. Well, thank you for the very kind words. I appreciate it. And yes, I just can't help myself but share thoughts.

I know.

I listen to them all the time.

Yeah. And. But trying to do it in a way that's not like, hey, hey, hey, let's do the podcast so much as like, here's this, and if it is of value to you, you know, there's a whole episode on it, and I'll go that way.

But here, for.

For all the market research nerds that.

Are out there, I'm going to give you a nice stat so all the. All the mathematical anxiety can just die down for just a little bit. But, you know, it's true that 92% of people who are engaged online want to deal with the person who is acknowledged as the thought leader in their industry, or at least perceived as the thought leader. And somebody else said to me, well, how do you become a thought leader, Priscilla?

And I said, well, first, there's a lot more to it, but one of the pieces is you have to tell.

People, I'm a thought leader in this.

Industry, which is kind of funny.

But it is also a part of sharing the thoughts. Right. Because you have to build the platform and then. And then have, you know what it is you're going to speak on from the platform. But it is both. And it's funny because I was just on the stage in October of 2021, and it was at Insights Marketing Day with Green Book and Keena's mustard and fieldwork and Little Bird marketing here. And somebody said something about being a thought leader in the industry and especially in market research. And I said, you know what? The funny thing is, I'm not the smartest. I'm not the number one thought leader in marketing. It's just, to you, I'm the number one most visible one.

Yeah.

And so I think there's something to be said for that, too. You know, your podcast is giving you visibility. Your podcast is also creating a platform for other people's thought leadership. And I think that's super important, too.

Yeah, I talked about that in episode. It was 177. I know, because, like, when we're recording this, it just came out, but it's a couple of months down the line. But about how to pitch yourself and knowing. To the media. Yes. But also just in General and good conversations and things like that and knowing. And I have an example of someone who is a handwriting expert that ended up being like the person for all the royal weddings and, like, was featured on all these different things because she was able to say, like, this is what the signatures of William and Kate say about them. Back for Kate Middleton, right? And then of course, when Harry and Meghan are getting married, like, oh, we have to call her again. And you're like, who would even think of that? But because you're the first one, you have to go against the herd, right? So everybody's talking about this and if you think, well, but if everybody's saying this sort of thing, that must, you know, you feel comfortable in that. So being willing to kind of step outside, say something a little bit different, find a new perspective and share it with the world. Michael F. Shine talks about making war, not love. So being willing to go out there and say something that's different and in a way that's helpful to people and not just being contrary for the sake of it, but, you know, when you truly believe and you can help to be noticed. And like I said in that episode, I'm sure she's a great handwriting expert, friend of a friend. I've never actually met her. Uh, but I'm not saying she's the best, but she was the best known and the person that when something comes up and you want to be talking about character of a celebrity, who do you think you're going to call? What comes up when you do a Google search for something like that? You know, she was the first one for a long time. And again, it doesn't mean that she has the most expertise, but she has leveraged her thoughts in a way and then everyone else is just next, right? You're just another version of that. So you have to be willing to be a little bit different than everybody else to get that heard and like you said, have that thought leadership.

Oh, my gosh, I am taking that.

Quote that you just said.

I just want everybody else to be next. I love it.

And you know, I know you feel that way for your clients, like you're trying to get, you know, understand the whole science of what's going on. Let's say for a pricing model or something like that, say, well, I want, you know, I want the consumer to pick this and everything else is just next, you know, so I love that mindset. And, you know, of course, you know, we're out there really genuinely trying to.

Help people with the skills that we have. But I do think there's something really beautiful about making a lot of money along the way to doing a lot of good.

Sure.

Yeah.

Well, and I think the.

Everyone.

Everyone else is just next is maybe a nicer way of the, you know, second place is the first loser. Sort of another good thing that people like to say. So one of the things I really love about Little Bird marketing is the thoughtfulness that is very clear in everything that you do, that it's on theme, which it is not something that you see all that often where people will use. They mix metaphors, they use different stuff. But you, you know, you have your soar system and thoughts from the perch and all these pieces or ponderings, apologies, but that it's, you know, little bird, which I'm guessing little bird is kind of like a little bird told me. It's sort of in that, like, word of mouth aspect of the marketing that you do. But keeping that thoughtfulness throughout is such an important way to prime people to know that, like, we're the. We're so thoughtful. Like, we thought about all these little things and we can do that for you too, without even having to say it. Is there insight behind that? I know, like you said, you took over, so I don't know how much of that you came up with or what's built on over time, but what do you do to be building everything in to be this really cohesive brand theme?

Yeah. Well, what's interesting, I did buy leasehold improvements from a gal, but it was called grow marketing at the time. So about three weeks after we had a tornado here in Joplin, I stood on the sidewalk and watched my creative studio burn to the ground. So standing on that sidewalk had a few thoughts.

And one of those thoughts is, I'm going to rebrand.

So finally, for me, I mean, I.

Don'T advise people, you know, burning it all down to build from the ground up. That's not a metaphor. I didn't, you know, maybe the metaphor is a phoenix, but the burning it down, that really happened.

And I chose Little Bird for exactly.

What you're talking about.

That little birdie told me a little bit of word of mouth, but also it also connotes you're on the in crowd. Like you've been told, like, there's intimacy going on with this brand and we're sharing good news. So there's a lot there. But yeah, how did I do that? I mean, for me, it was fun. First of all, I think it needs to be around something that's a little bit fun. And it has to be meaningful to you. And then I think it's about making sure that your whole team has the buy in. Because we call our team the Peeps. We're here at the Nest is our office. And you know, they come up with great things. I said something to someone today about, you know, how I joke around when I'm talking with people and say, you know, to kill two birds with one stone. And then I always pause and say, but I don't think you should be killing birds. And they all think it's very funny because it's on brand for me.

Right.

But William Clift, one of my graphic.

Designers, he said, oh, just tell them you're going to feed two birds with one scone. And I said, gosh darn it, it's.

Been ages and I never heard that. So I think it's about like just.

Listening for other people and finding really fun things to do. But then it's about being faithful to that brand. That fidelity to your brand is something that, that really takes. It takes effort. A lot of times we will write something. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. What are we doing here?

We're the birds.

Like, no, this can't happen. But it is easy sometimes to fall off of it if you're person pushing that forward at this point, it's a train that is going so fast I couldn't stop the birds if I wanted to. And that's really, that's really well developed brand, right?

Yeah. And that it's just a natural thing. And where, when we know about how associations work with the brain and when you see an apple at the grocery store, you don't get to say, like, I'm not thinking about computers or phones right now, brain. Like, when I see apples, it's just the food apples. But because of the way that that's associated there, that brand becomes reinforced whenever you see apples and possibly even oranges and you know, things that are close by. And so, you know, you think even about a tweet and Twitter and like that I don't know how much is. Because you know that there's an association there. I'm assuming you do some Twitter stuff for your clients too, or some recommendations.

100%.

But I mean, that's just, that's like the peanut butter to your jelly. You know, that that's reinforcing you and who you are and what you're able to do. And you know, then you see, you see a bird and it can make people remember and think of You. It's the. One of my very, very favorite ad campaigns of all time. And I feel okay priming you now. I'm going to ask you what yours is, so just get ready.

Okay? All right.

Is from the 2018 or 2019. I forget now. Super Bowl. It's a Tide ad. Was the best ad, in my opinion, to where they have. Where it's like, oh, this is amazing. Like, sports car driving and it's fun. And they're like, the beer commercial. Or is it. And they're like, no, it's a Tide ad. And then it comes up because, like, they all have clean shirts. And then because Procter and Gamble owns all these other brands, then it would start a commercial, and you think it's Mr. Clean. Like, no, no.

Hey, hey, hey.

Come on. It's a tie, dad, right? And then it's another guy. And then they have the Old Spice commercial. He's like, no tie, dad. And so they. And it's like coming up at each quarter. And then they say, is every super bowl ad a tight ad? Because, of course, everyone has clean shirts. And so then every commercial that's coming up, you're questioning, is this. Is it a Tide ad? Is this another one that's going to be here? And essentially, they made it. So every single ad that everyone bought was reinforcing Tide in that. And so I think that is the very best ad campaign.

I haven't had a chance to talk.

About it on the show yet. So fun there.

Well, another one that somebody took notes.

And took this back into the boardroom.

Because you know how Subway has been doing that campaign this year about, oh, you know, Subway so long. And it's so. You know, there's so much to talk about, so much good news. You know, we had to buy a space in so. And so's ad. So they're. They're running their ad and then going into someone else's.

Oh, yeah.

And so then you get to the point where you're thinking, wait, is this gonna.

Is this a real ad or is this. Am I about ready to be interrupted with the Subway ad? So they totally got that message. But I think for me, personally, like, the one that I. That I always come back to, that.

I think is just so funny.

And maybe it says a lot more about my humor.

But it's when they really came out with the Old Spice, the guy on.

The, you know, that, like the, you know, on the white horse, on the beach. And, like, it's like me looking at you. Exactly.

And just that.

And I Think the reason why I.

Love that is because it didn't have those layers. Like, it breaks through those layers of, can you just talk to me like.

We'Re hanging out and it's funny?

And I'd be like, if I. If I picked up Old Spice and I was at a party, at a cocktail party and I probably had a few too many, I'd be like, here's the ad. I'm on a horse. I'm doing this.

And you know, and I would do.

That whole thing out of a mockery. And for me, like, the fact that that makes people laugh and it makes me like, that stand out, it brings me back to my humanity. Those are the ads that I love the most. That they're not necessarily, you know, trying.

To be like, we are the best.

And is this crazy? Isn't you want to own this thing? You know, it's more like we're kind.

Of laughing at ourselves at this point.

Yeah. That made me think of. Okay, one more really good ad that I like is for Planters peanuts and where all the peanuts are having the holiday party and then the nutcracker comes in and he, like, tries to bite and that he, Mr. Peanut, like, puts the. His cane in the mouth, like to prop the nutcracker open because he just can't help himself. That's a good one too.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh, that stuff just so clever.

But it's by really kind of, you know, taking your brand maybe a little less seriously. And I think that's the commonality there.

Yeah. Fun is such an important part of engaging with other people and knowing that your brand of fun and funny will have enough people that resonate with it, typically that are enough to be your. Your clients, your. All of what you need. And if you can just be authentically fun and engaging, it's such a better way work environment. Anyway, so thank you for going on that fun little tangent with me. And I would love if you have some examples of how you've used Personas and if you have a client story of how you were able to really focus in on somebody and like, how that made a difference for them, you know, bringing that anthropology into the marketing, you know, why is that important for everyone that's listening?

Yeah, for sure. I'll use an example from, you know, pretty early in my career. But, you know, I. And I use this example kind of often because I think it really hits the nail on the head. You can have a marriage counseling facility who really could be motivated by helping people. They could be motivated by Making a lot of money. They could be motivated. They could be motivated by all kinds of things. I'll tell you what I don't care about. I don't care what year they started. So please don't make me write, you know, social media copy or web copy. In fact, you can't.

I dare you. It's not possible to get me to write in. Starting in 1984, I'm like, and I quit.

Right? So, you know, you think about, like, they could have all kinds of other motivations, but who is their ideal client? Well, their ideal client we'd identify, was a professional. And why is that? With a, you know, counseling. This was. Did not take insurance. It was a private practice. And so therefore, people had to be able to pay for it. Not only be able to pay for it, but a professional really had more of a set schedule. And a professional at a higher level also understood the value of appointments and keeping them. So when we took a look at all the problems that were going on in this, you know, in this business that were causing revenue to just plummet and never to be able to get that, what I call that firm and sustainable prediction of lead generation, then we started identifying, well, the ideal person automatically overcomes all these problems for us. So let's only market to this ideal person. But this ideal person has all these wonderful things. They can afford it, they can make, keep an appointment if they make it. But what are the downsides to that? What is the thing that that person says? They say, oh, I have so much work. I've got to get this done. Right. This is probably part of the problems why they have marriage problems. Right.

They're working all the time. Right.

Or the thing that we started doing by going down that Persona development is also the other thing they're saying is, I'm so frustrated that I lean five inches from someone and I feel 500 light years away from them. This kind of feeling like that's the problem. Right? And so at first glance, if you don't do a lot of good Persona work, you could say, oh, let's make sure and go out there and say, well, this person works. And they're going to be interested in after hours. So we want to make sure to let them know we're available from five to six. We have appointments from seven to this. We could do early morning. We could do Saturdays, you know, so we can go out and do features and benefits and bark at them. The things that we have that. The things that we have. And it's not going to do Anything. But what is the thing in a Persona work that can overcome any other obstacle is if you speak to that real heart of that problem and say, are you tired of being five inches from someone and 500 light years away? Then see us at that point, the hours, the time, the money, the making, the appointment, the hassle, none of that matters anymore. Because ideally, if I'm someone who really is hurting over a relationship, then I'm going to make it worth it to me. Because we all know that very, very busy people and people make a lot of money. They make time for what they want to make time for. And so we can't keep fighting that battle. So that's a really good, I think, a good, you know, example of Persona work where if you go kind of like into behaviors and demographics of them, you might come up with one answer. But if you go deeper into really the pain and thinking about what comes out of their mouths, what keeps them up on Sunday night, what gets them going on Monday, what are they sick and tired about? Being sick and tired about? What will they not admit to you? What are they so embarrassed about? Like, these kinds of things, these kinds of questions that are so much more qualitative, really help you get to the core of what is going on for this person and helps you, in the end, serve them.

Yeah. And I think that. So Personas have become the, like, buzz. It had a buzzword phase. And then, you know, you have so many people that didn't do them justice, we shall say, and to where then you get like, Personas don't work. That's buzz. Right. It's not a real thing that that's gonna help. But you're talking about here. It's not just like, this is Susie. Susie drives a minivan and she has.

Two kids, blah, blah, blah.

I narrate the rest of mine. It's pretty funny.

But, you know, to that point, I.

Mean, diet and exercise don't work either.

Right.

If you do them right.

Right. Yeah. And so with this, it's like taking the Persona idea and where it became something so sterile and like you said, still in that features, benefits land and saying they're busy, so they want this. Like, oh, yeah, she's a busy mom. Like, oh, busy, like after hours or whatever. You know, you just do that first easiest thing that comes up. But understanding the problem you're solving and thinking more about this person. And as I talk about, you know, pricing is not about the price. The working with you is not. Even if somebody's saying, like, oh, it's too expensive or I don't have time during the day. It's because you haven't done a good enough job making them feel that they need this and they need you. That actually goes back to the thought leadership stuff. We were talking about that for you to stand out and be the people they want. It's not just I need a marriage counselor and I'll just find whoever's around. I want xyz like that is where I'm going. And if they only have an appointment in three weeks on a Tuesday at 11am like you can be sure we'll be there. And I'm going to make sure we're there and we're going to make our appointment and we're going to make it happen and it's worth. And then scarcity works for you because of being in demand and all these things. And so I think that is such a good point that I think I would say and based on what I'm hearing when you're talking about it is kind of light bulbs for me of most people just didn't take that Persona far enough. Like they got to the idea of finding out who the person is and then saying, well like you said, this is the feature we should talk to them about versus really understanding those pain points and the language that they use. So do you have a tip for someone, I guess to get over the hurdle of the. Well, whether it's features, benefits hurdle or something else, but to get past preconceived notions about Personas and know that it can work if you really like get in, like put on your human hat.

Right? Yeah, no, a couple of things I'll give. The first thing is that when people do them, they usually do them and then that's checked off and it goes in a, in a drawer. So number one is if you do the Personas, then use the Personas. And I'm not joking. We have binders on our desks. How old school is that? You know, we have all of our Personas digital on the Trello cards for our clients. Like they can look at them at any time. We look at them at any time. But I'm telling you, we are flipping through and we're like, okay, I'm writing, you know, I'm going to write 120 social media posts for this client today on six, seven, eight different topics. Okay, well guess what? I'm not touching the computer until the Persona is sitting in front of me because I can be reminded how that person talks. And I've got my Audience completely in mind. So I guess the biggest tip I could give people is if you're going to do them, then pull them out of the drawer and keep them central. And, you know, make sure that everybody who touches your copy, whether it's a vendor or it's internal, even a silly internal memo should be within your brand. It should talk like you talk. And that's where we kind of end up with, you know, with problems like people don't think about that audience whether it's internal or external. So I think it's about getting those Personas out of the drawer and on the desks.

Yeah, well, and that's even like talking about how you do such a great job at Little Bird of living that through everything, not. Not threads through all the feathers of your organization. Right. So you're able to. It just exudes and you. Everybody sort of is naturally looking for those puns, which I'm a big fan of the pun myself, so I appreciate it. And you can't help but make it more fun and interesting. Dan Genghis was on the show. I ended out 2021 with his interview. His book is called the Experience Maker. And talking about making things fun. He has a framework, of course, but even where he's saying, like, his 404 error page that he has on his website is you get to the wrong page and it's not just like, oops, the end. Right. But that's a spot where, you know, he's got a little something silly that's on brand for him. I know that I also have, you know, my 404 people are going to get there, and you don't want it to be this like, wa, wa.

Dad, experience mine up.

Because I'm trying to remember what mine is.

And here it is. Okay, Ours has a cage on it and there's no bird and there's just feathers like that. The door is open and it's just.

Like, oh, my God, what just happened here? And it says, this is not joking. I'm looking at this live and I did not remember. So there's a quote.

Sometimes you have to forget what's gone, appreciate what still remains, and look forward to what's coming next. Will Smith.

You know, like, I crack me up.

I don't even remember, you know, asking that to be built like that.

But you know what?

Probably Leighton on my team wrote it.

After I said, hey, make sure our.

44 is on brand. And sure enough, you know, this kind.

Of stuff, it just pervades everything. And if you. If you think about your audience like that, you know, then you're always going to be thinking about your audience and that you have to also realize that your brain can't hold all that info.

Yeah.

So if you're holding all your brand voice, then you don't have all the space to remember every Persona. And so getting that Persona, the written codified one out in front of you every time you're going to write something is super important. Yeah.

And just as the other examples of my 404 is saying that the E in nudges is for expect error. And so we knew that people would end up here. Most people are looking for these three things. Like, so if you were looking for the podcast or you were looking for like, here's a way to go and if not, send us an email. Right?

Yeah.

But yeah, so good stuff to have those come together. I could obviously talk to you forever and ever and ever. And I'm excited that again, assuming things go the way that we all hope they're going to go, we're going to finally meet in person coming up here in April of 2022. Do you want to talk about where that is?

Yes. I'm so excited. I have the pleasure of emceeing Green Books iiex again in Austin this year. It's going to be super fun. But, you know, IIX really is about that innovation and it's about giving stage to people who really have a new idea or have applied an idea differently. So it's not, in my opinion, the same droning, you know, presentations that we've always heard like, oh, if I can get a great client, I'll just get a chance to talk. We're all saying, what's next, what's new? And I love that focus about iiex because it also hones in on heavy collaboration, which is really important to me. And right now I'm writing a book called Collaboration is the New Competition. And because of that, you know, I can see how I've been drawn to work with Green Book over and over again. Whether I'm doing there insights marketing day or, you know, I've spoken in Bangkok and Europe and North America for this. But, you know, this big one in North America is so important because first of all, it's a very large show, but it really highlights disruption and it really highlights what's evolving, you know, and yes, of course it's fun. I think it's really great and I'm so excited to hear what you're going to be speaking on, but I feel like it's A little bit more like the real, real of conference world. Like, I get the academia, but what the hell are we doing tomorrow? Like, to really make a difference and to break through the noise.

Yeah, well, that's, I, it's my, it'll be my first time attending. So I, you know, I spoke and did IEX behavior in 2021, which was all virtual, and then going to be in theory at both IIEX North America and Europe this year coming up in 2022. And very excited for those. And hopefully we'll be seeing people in Austin and Am Dam as we get to be doing those and essentially in the podcast stage, sort of doing like live podcasting stuff while I'm there. And I don't know exactly what that looks like because I haven't been before. I've done that before, but not here. So it'll be fun to see how that all comes together.

Well, for me, it's going to be super fun to actually get to mention.

Your name from the stage because I.

Get to talk about all of the wonderful market research podcasts that have been out there and we have been the sponsor of the Market Research Annual Podcast Award, and I get to give that out live on the stage. I don't know who the winner is.

But I'm just saying I'm going to.

Get to say your name because I'm going to get to highlight a lot of this amazing, amazing work that's being done in podcast world, in this industry that's really elevating the conversation and getting people to collaborate. So it's going to be fun to get a chance, which is the whole point of it is to highlight what's going on and get more people listening to more of these podcasts and sharing some ideas. So. And then I will drum roll, announce the winner at iex.

So it'll be really fun. Don't ask me who it is because I always have an envelope handed to me and I don't want to know beforehand.

Yeah, no, I know we were talking about it before and it truly is in the most cliche way. It is such an honor to be nominated. There are some amazing podcasts on the list and hopefully many of them will be sharing that podcast stage. Get to meet so many people in person. I just, I can't even wait. It's. It's going to be super, super exciting. So for everyone listening, you know, assuming it is still before we timed this, that you should be able to come join us at IEX North America in April 2022. And if not, after the fact. You know, look at Europe is in the summer and there'll be another conference next year. So come join us whenever.

I'll be doing the the one in Austin and then also Amsterdam and also so I'm going to be doing a little bit of some of this Persona work with an Insights Marketing day piece built on to both iiex North America and Amsterdam. And so if you can join us for that, those are really green book goes the distance to try and give resources to market research firms or Insights professionals who need to do better marketing their own business. And that's really what I'm there for. We also have it littlebirdmarketing.com resources resources with an S because if you use just resource, you'll go to my 404 page.

But that's fun too.

That's fun. Go to either one, but you can.

Get some free stuff there. Or join us at IEX and there'll be a separate module and some other fun things like that where you can also learn kind of take a break from, you know, market research and from Insights and say, okay, how do I, how do I really market my business? You can see what Molina does, what a good job she does with her brand. And it looks so polished. And people always come to me about, you know, how do people do that?

Like, where do you start? You know, and it is, it is.

Can be complex, but it should be able to be simplified.

Yeah. Well, you already took us down the path of where we were going here, which is the best way for people to get in contact with you and to learn more. So we'll put in littlebirdmarketing.com resources into the show notes. And so I'm assuming Maybe Twitter and LinkedIn could be be on there as well. But what are the other ways to connect with you and with Little Bird Marketing?

Well, I always accept if people mail me a bottle of Vogue Clico champagne and put a post it note with their message on top. I always accept that. I always answer those.

But other than that, I'm on LinkedIn.

That's really the quickest and easiest way to get me. If you've bumped into me at a conference at any point, you have my.

Cell phone already, so.

Nice.

So if you buy me a drink at one of the conferences, you'll probably get my cell phone number and then we can collaborative ideas about marketing.

Fun. Well, I look forward to it. We'll clink our glasses there when we meet up here in Austin in a few weeks.

Oh, it'll be so great. That's going to be so great.

All right, thank you again Priscilla. It was so much fun to chat with you as always.

Thanks, Melina.

Thank you again to Priscilla McKinney for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? Or maybe wings flapping or some other likely obvious bird related pun I'm missing here? Tag me on Twitter the Brain Eat Biz and let me know what I.

Should have said here that would have.

Been a better fit for me. I have to bring it back to the thoughtfulness of a brand and tying together all these connection points and associations to help build a strong Persona. As Priscilla shared during our conversation, Personas are about more than generic details. It's about really knowing the mindset of someone has what they want to do and achieve, what drives them, and how you can help them to know they're in the right place. Little moments of thoughtfulness that tie in across your brand's interaction points. Everything from individual staff emails both internally and externally, to the names of products or services, to titles or anything else help to prime others to realize you think about things at a deep level. This can have a halo effect where they have confidence that you'll do the same for them, that you're thoughtful in everything you do. And I can't think of any company for which that wouldn't be considered a benefit. Whatever resonated with you the most, come share it with Priscilla and I on Twitter or LinkedIn. As mentioned, she is Little Bird Mama, M o M M A and I am the Brainy Biz on Twitter, both of which are linked for you in the show notes which are waiting for you at the brainy business.com196 along with a curated list of what I think are the best next episodes for you to listen to related books and things like that. And if you are listening to this in advance of Green Book's iiex North America Conference, consider coming to hang out with us both in person. If you're already going to be there, please do connect. Reach out in advance. I am honored to be doing two live podcast episodes in Austin in 2022.

And Priscilla's doing all sorts of sessions there as well.

We can't wait to see you in Austin. Thank you again to Priscilla McKinney for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chirp with and learn from you. Next week, Dr. Vince Vanessa Bonds is here to talk about why you have more influence than you think. It's going to be a lot of fun. You won't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.