259. Cognitive Semiotics and Metaphors with Sarah Thompson

Welcome to episode 259 of the Brainy Business, Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Sarah Thompson to talk about my new obsession, cognitive semiotics.

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Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast, where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello, everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Sarah Thompson, a behavioral designer at Live Neuron Labs who has a master's in cognitive semiotics. Don't worry, we're going to have lots of conversation today about what cognitive semiotics is and why it matters.

So I won't get into it much.

Here as Sarah can kick off that conversation. One thing I do want to do is to set the stage on getting you thinking about metaphor. Now, this isn't the first time we're talking about metaphor on the show or semiotics links for both of those episodes in the show notes, but this episode is specifically talking about how important metaphor really is when it comes to understanding the brain, thought, behavior and decision making. Metaphor matters because research is starting to show that we don't just use them as colorful language to make a point, but we actually think in metaphors. It's how our cognitive system is structured. Sarah's going to talk about a lot of great resources also linked in the show notes, including a book called Metaphors We Live by, which was written by George Lakoff and Mark Johnson. If, like me, you're ready to go all in on cognitive semiotics metaphor, this is a book to add to your library immediately. And of course, if you're ready to.

Go all in on this, connect with.

Sarah and I so we can have a conversation about all of it. Cognitive semiotics is an emerging field, so we all need to stick together and know who else is researching and working in this space. You can find me as the brainy biz pretty much everywhere and as molina Palmer on LinkedIn. And of course, there are links to make it easy in those show notes I've mentioned a few times now, which are found within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 259. Now let's jump right in. Sarah Thompson, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. It's such a Pleasure to be here.

Absolutely. I'm so, so excited to have you. And I know we've had a little bit of a. A chat to start here. Our connection came, as with so many other interviews on the podcast through LinkedIn. And in this case, though, you were. I think it's actually so a mutual friend, Aaron. Um, and now I'm real. I realize that I don't know how to pronounce her last name. Levrone, I think that's correct.

We're. We're sort of newly acquainted. We're both organizers for Action Design Network here in Austin. So it's. It's also a recent connection for me, but I think that's right.

All right, so, Aaron, we appreciate you. Sorry if I pronounced your name wrong, but. So Erin had posted about an event that was going to be happening in Austin that was about the using metaphor in design, something along those lines. I forget the exact title of the session. And then I saw that and of course went, ooh, what's that? And knowing it was in person. And so I wouldn't be able to attend because even though I teach in Texas, I don't live in Texas. And I reached out and said, is there some sort of recording or, you know, virtual option for those of us that can't be there? Turns out you were the one giving that talk. And we got all connected and chatting, and I learned more about your work and said, yeah, you're my new best friend. Sorry, it's happened. You have to. No choice. And so here you are on the show, and with that, we'll say, lovely introduction or sort of random rambling from me. How about you do a nice job of introducing yourself, talking a little bit about your background and the work that you do and how it all relates to. To brain science.

Sure. So, first and foremost, I'm a behavioral designer. I work at a consulting firm in Austin, Texas, called Live Neuron Labs. And I think most of your listeners probably know what behavioral design is, but kind of, simply put, my job is to apply behavioral science through design to help people make better decisions. And currently with Live Neuron Labs, we're really focused on pro social behavior change. So trying to drive behavior behaviors that help people take care of their health, improve their well being, you know, support themselves financially, and also cultivate healthy habits in their daily lives. So that's what I do in behavior design. And my foundation, my education is in cognitive semiotics, which usually when I tell people that I'm a cognitive semiotician, their eyes kind of glaze over. And there's like a moment of silence, and I can tell they don't know what I'm talking about. They usually don't ask me to explain any further, to be honest.

So when we were first talking, you said that you have your degree in cognitive semiotics. And I went, amazing. Did you even know what to do with yourself?

No. I was like, I better figure out how to convey what this is. I better figure out what to say. So I will. I'm so excited when I get to talk about this to people. So cognitive semiotics, even though it sounds fancy, is really quite simple. So, you know, it really, truly is the intersection of semiotics, which is the study of meaning, and cognitive science, which is the study of the mind. So if you put those two together, cognitive semiotics is the study of how the mind makes meaning. And so, you know, some things we're interested in in this field are, you know, what types of mental processes are at work when we need to make sense the world around us, when we need to make sense of the perceptual experiences we're having, our interactions with other people, our interactions with technology. And even more granular than that, how do we make sense of text, of images, of music, of products that we're interacting with? Obviously, all of that is super connected to design, which is why it's the perfect thing to bring into my behavioral design work. There is one central question in cognitive semiotics that I'm excited to talk more about today. And sort of that central question is, what can studying language, you know, studying how we speak and also how we other forms of communication, what can that tell us about how our cognition is structured, how we think? And there's some really great insights there that I apply in my work all the time that I want to share more about.

Yeah, well, does it make sense to jump right in there, or is there some other background we should do before we get to that point?

I think that's my whole life story. I think that's the whole background.

Well, let's do that. Right? Why not?

Sure, yeah. So you mentioned that the talk you saw I was giving was on metaphor. And I think that is one of the biggest, sort of one of the biggest insights from cognitive semiotics is that metaphors are just incredibly powerful at shaping not just how we talk, but also, you know, how we think and how we make decisions. And I think for a lot of us, we know what metaphors are, but they're a lot deeper than most of us realize. So I Think we were talking earlier and we were just kind of, you know, discussing how amazing it is that every, like, 20th or 25th word, depending on who's making the estimate, is metaphorical. And so it's just metaphors are something that we don't really go out of our way to use. It's just something that naturally flows out of us. We use them subconsciously. And I think, you know, when we talk about type 1 or type 2 processing, the sort of metaphorical use is very much automatic and very much part of that. That type one cognition, for sure.

And so let's revisit a little bit on the Every will go extreme and say 25th word, which is still a lot. Right. So it's still so much. And so give some of the examples because I'm sure that people will say, no, I don't. Right. I. I don't really talk that way. And I know the thing about metaphor that I find to be so fascinating is because we use it so much. And I know from just both the. The rabbit hole of research that I have done since we first started talking, of course, knowing like the rabbit hole of research. Own metaphor. Like, once we. This is the, like you say, the matrix. Like, once you start to see the metaphors, you can't not notice when they're coming up, but you still miss a bunch of them. You don't even. We don't even realize because this is how our brain makes meaning of all the things is by using these metaphorical associations, which I think is just so awesome and amazing. But can you give some examples of everyday language, things that people say and don't even realize are metaphor, but absolutely are.

Right. Well, one you hear a lot these days is a phrase like inflation is rising. When we say things like that, we don't mean that there are sort of dollars flying around up in the air. Right. We're conveying something a little bit more complex, but we talk about it as if there's sort of a physical process that's happening. Or we soon are going to say Christmas is coming because it's November right now or December. Today's December 1st. Oh, my goodness.

I know.

And this is going to come out in. So it'll be interesting, too, of saying, you know, what are. What are those? I'm sure there'll be plenty of their own metaphors for January as we're getting back into health, losing those resolutions, like.

The year flew by. Right. Even that. Like, that's another metaphor. So just anything like that. She's a cool girl. You know, we're not talking about the fact that somebody has cold skin. We're saying that they have a cool disposition, they're a cool person, they're interesting. So all of those things are metaphorical. Just to even go beyond that, we kind of have this myth that metaphors are just a part of language, kind of just the way we talk. But metaphors are actually in all other types of communication. So in the way we gesture. So you can imagine somebody telling you that they're weighing the options, and they start to move their hands up and down as if they're physically weighing two different things in each hand. Like that's. That's metaphor just directly coming through our body language. Even if we don't even tell somebody we're weighing the options, we might go, eh. You know, kind of move our hands up and down. So that's a way it could show up in gesture, for example, or another kind of example we can all relate to is you can think of, you know, movie posters and art similar to that. So if you look at a movie poster, you probably know who the most important character, like the main character is by how big they're depicted in the image. Right. So the main character is always the largest. And that's kind of a manifestation of a conceptual metaphor we have that size is important, big is important. You know, we say, like, he's a big deal, or that's a big part of our mission. And what we mean is that, you know, that's something that's important to us. And so that shows up in art. Sort of the most important features of the art are depicted as larger than everything else. That might not be something we're aware of. Right. When we're looking at a movie poster. But there's metaphor there, right?

Yes. And in. In all the things, I. I love that you were talking about music, too. So I'm a vocalist in training, and I almost went to school for musical theater. That was the plan for a very, very long time. But I always. I. I love listening to and looking at lyrics and the way that a lot of singers will. Or I guess it would be more on the. The lyricist, at that point, of the person who's writing the words. But the. Where you say something that's a common phrase and you say it in a slightly different way, but we're able to understand it still. And it's close enough to be nostalgic, but it still has this newness which draws back on when Prince Guman was on the show, talking about why we like the things they like and this balance of novelty and nostalgia that's so important. And, you know, like, John Mayer has a song called that. He talks about slow dancing in a burning room, which is such an interesting thing that we get it. I get what that means, even where it's not, you know, literally what's happening, but it's. You know, we're in our own little world. We're in our bubble, and everything's falling apart around us, and we should be focused on something else, you know, but. And I can have a different meaning for that than someone else and depending on where I am in my life and, you know, different things where they say the word low, but the tone gets higher and how that juxtaposition is so interesting in the brain. I'm not going to go down this tangent, but it's something that I've bored many people, many friends, to hear me talk about of this, how interesting I think all of that is. And that little moment of what you were expecting isn't what you get. And how that makes music resonate with us in a different way than other just language or more straight talk. I don't know the right way to say that if we're just having a conversation versus singing.

Right, right. I mean. And I think that's what's really interesting about metaphors. Typically in a metaphor, we talk about one concept as if it's another concept. So, for example, we might talk about love as a fire, which is very related to your slow dancing in a burning room example. So, you know, if we say love is a fire, it's different than saying love is like a fire. We're saying it is one. And so what happens in a metaphor is that, you know, there are these little packages of meaning, and our brain goes to work immediately to unpack it. So when we're exposed to a metaphor, we kind of automatically figure out what's similar about love and a fire, even though kind of on the surface they're completely unrelated. Like, they don't really have anything to do with each other. But as we start to make meaning and process this metaphor, we realize that, you know, there's a big reward there. We can have an interpretation of it just like there's a big reward in kind of unpacking song lyrics. So with the example love is a fire, you know, we'll think about it and. Or, you know, even subconsciously, this processing happens, and we come to think, okay, well, that could mean love is hot or love is consuming, or love is out of control. There's a lot of meaning hidden in these metaphors. And visuals, too, and stories. Right. So metaphors transfer a lot of knowledge and associations when you're exposed to them. And they're. They're these incredibly rich concepts, which is why they have a pretty potent ability to influence us.

Yeah, absolutely. And this is the. So I know that priming can get a bad rap in the behavioral sciences space of saying as far as replication. And then we look at, you know, it didn't do exactly what it did the first time. And so it might not be as potent as we think that it is. But I find so much in the words that came just before the decision or the imagery that was shown or how something is talked about. When we look at this research and, and work that you've shared and the, you know, the work that you do in. In the space of metaphor and how it can impact decision making is so closely tied to priming in my mind. And I think that that is something that's really important. Can you share the example of the virus?

Yes. And I think, you know, when you say. Say that you view it as being closely related to priming, that also resonates with me because there are a lot of studies that show, you know, the earlier you can get a metaphor in your conceptualization of an idea. Like, the earlier you can bring it into whatever you're trying to convey, the more ability it has to influence how somebody thinks about it. So it's. It's not as effective if you kind of add the metaphor at the end, but if you add it early on, it can completely shape how people are thinking about whatever it is you're asking them to think about. Right.

Because it's. Then you get the, like, the focusing, you know, focusing illusion. But I don't think that that's really the right terminology for this. But so we focus on different things based on what's been put, you know, put into our mind at the beginning here of what's going to be important. And then for confirmation bias, we're looking for stuff that backs that up and that fits into the mold of what we're looking for here. And then the actions that we feel like we want to take or whether we want to move forward or we want to wait or we feel stressed or. Or whatnot all comes from something that happened a little bit earlier. Right. And so the. Even something as simple as the metaphor choice that you use, and knowing that, as with everything, really, you're using metaphors constantly, even when you're not thinking about them. And they might be steering you wrong, and you don't even realize it, but you can just change and align those metaphors and be more impactful, which I know we're going to talk about today. So to the viruses.

Yes, to the viruses. We've talked a little bit too much about viruses over the last couple of years, but I think this is a particularly interesting study out of Stanford University. And it was two psychologists, two researchers who wanted to know whether using a metaphor could affect how somebody thought about a complex social issue like crime. And so, you know, they had two different participant groups, and they had them both read the same description, same little story about a fake city that was experiencing a rise in crime. But for one of the groups, they very explicitly described the crime as a beast ravaging the city. And for the other group, they described crime as a virus ravaging the city. So virus ravaging doesn't sound supernatural. But what they really wanted to change was only one word. So that one word was beast or virus. And so, you know, they had. They were exposed to these two different metaphors. And then the researchers asked them, okay, what should we do to solve the crime problem? And what they found was that the people who were exposed to the beast metaphor were, I think, 20% more likely to say that they wanted crime and punishment, so they wanted to hire more police, build more jails, things like that, very punitive. Whereas the people who were exposed to the virus metaphor were much more likely to recommend social reform, like sort of finding the root cause of the problem. So their recommendations fell more in line with things like education reform and. And supporting the economy and things further upstream. And so I think this is a particularly interesting example because it was just a single word that affected how people thought about a very complex social issue. And when they asked participants, hey, what is it that made you give us this answer? Almost none of them could identify that it was the metaphor. There was a lot of post hoc rationalization where people would go back through the text and say, oh, it was this statistic that you told me it was how much crime was rising. And so people were highly influenced by it, but had no idea. And just another side note about this study, you would expect that people's political affiliation might influence how they answer this question. But it turned out that the metaphor was actually more powerful at determining people's responses than their political affiliation. So maybe that's a little helpful, right? That metaphor could be a way to kind of break down some of these political divides that we have. And lots of countries Have. So, yeah, that's the study. Yeah.

Well, and you alluded to, mentioned a little bit of the, you know, too much about viruses recently. But I know that also in some of the research and stuff you sent to me in advance of this, talking about how people chose to talk about the COVID 19 pandemic was actually, I don't know if it's a mixed metaphor as much as a misused metaphor and that there could have been a better. A better way than what was chosen. So I know that potentially this is getting ahead of talking about how we kind of break down the metaphor. So if we need to put a pin in this and then have you talk about some other stuff, that's okay. But I think that's a really interesting example as well.

Yeah, well, no, I think we can talk about that example with the pandemic because it is so recent, and it's something that I think every single listener can relate to, especially because we were all exposed to the messaging. Right. So even from the very beginnings of the pandemic, it was governments, it was health agencies, and media around the world. They were all trying to communicate effectively about how we should all behave in light of the events. You had, for example, France's president, I think you call him the president, but he was saying that they're at war with an invisible and elusive enemy. And then you had the British Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, saying that every citizen was going to be directly enlisted in this fight, and there was just directly enlisted invisible enemy. I think, you know, Xi Jinping of China was calling it, you know, a people's war on the coronavirus. So you just have lots of this war metaphor that was being used to talk about the situation. And I think it makes sense that this was used kind of cross culturally because we. It kind of ties back to. We have these things called primary metaphors, which are ones that are sort of deeply rooted in their embodied metaphors. So we come to acquire them from, you know, interactions with the world from a very early age. The primary metaphor that this would be based on is that difficulties are opponents. And so it kind of makes sense that this war metaphor wasn't just being used in one country, but globally. And I wouldn't say that it was a bad metaphor to use because it was very apt right there. There are a lot of good cognitive and rhetorical reasons why we. We might choose to speak like this, but unfortunately had a lot of unintended consequences. So by talking about the pandemic as if it was a war, new studies are coming out every day that kind of show that this had really harmful psychological effects on the population. And this is in part because metaphors aren't perfect, Right? You're comparing two concepts, and they're not identical. But what happens is that the concept that's more tangible, like war, helps us understand the more abstract concept, like a pandemic. But there are going to be some parts of war that don't necessarily match pandemic. Right. And so we end up with these sort of meanings that we don't mean to have associations that aren't necessarily helpful. So, for example, you know, when we think of a pandemic as a war, a lot of times we think sort of battles can be quickly won. You know, it's something you fight a battle and then, you know, the battle's over, or maybe soon thereafter, the war is over. But with the pandemic, you know, this is an ongoing issue. This is something that's going to be around for a very long time. This requires, like, longevity and patience. You know, it's not just a big fight up front, and then we beat it, and then we move on with our lives. So I think that kind of set the wrong expectations about the scale and duration of what most of us would be living with. So that's just sort of one unintended consequence. But just from a. From a behavioral perspective, there's another huge one, which is that what do you do when you're at war? Well, you fight. It's a very activating metaphor. It primes you for aggressive action and getting up and getting out there. But the war metaphor isn't particularly good at telling us what behavior is not to do. And that was a really critical piece of the pandemic. Right. We had to forego normal routines. We had to stay home. We weren't going out and fighting. We needed to kind of like, do nothing. And so it was a bit of a mismatch metaphor in that sense.

Right. And then you potentially. It made it to where people felt less, even less control and, like, they weren't doing enough, which you already have all of this stress because it feels like, you know, I'm. I'm pumped up and rallying to go do something, and then I'm just sitting here and I don't know what I'm supposed to do, and it kind of adds some of that extra stress. So I thought that was so, so interesting. And I think, like, you said something everyone can really, really relate to. And I know that we could definitely talk about all the metaphors and all the examples all day long, I really loved. One other, well, I love all of it, but one that I think was particularly useful, where you are looking at this example about diabetes and fighting diabetes. Not that it's all about these sort of health related items and, you know, viruses and things, but can you share that example itself and the issue of, as we look to metaphor, where mixing them is a problem and then being able to kind of identify and, you know, that whole sort of process that you go through with your work?

Yeah, absolutely. So it's one thing to understand that metaphors are just part of everyday communication and that they have the ability to influence us and that they structure our thoughts. Like, it's one thing to kind of know all of that and to be aware and to be interested and to be more mindful. But then we kind of run into, okay, well, now we know, how can we make sure that we're in our designs and in our businesses using metaphors that get us the outcomes we want? Right? Because metaphors can have these unintended consequences, and even if they seem to be fitting, it might not be driving the behaviors that we want our customers or users to do. And so I kind of, through reading a lot of cognitive semiotic research on this and through applying some of the insights in my own work, I've kind of come up with like five key things that I think help people choose metaphors that get them the outcomes that they want. And so, you know, I'll use sort of a diabetes case study as an example to make these five points, because it's just kind of nice to, you know, have something to grab onto. Otherwise it can get a little bit conceptual. But so, I mean, let's just take a sample problem, which is like a little mini case study we can talk through together. So we can imagine that we have this really stellar diabetes prevention program. You know, it's fantastic. Everybody gets a free coach. It's super effective. The CDC loves it. You know, it's this fantastic program, but nobody is signing up. And so we kind of have a key behavior that we want people who are at risk of getting diabetes to sign up for a prevention program. And so what's really important, how you can kind of start to use metaphor already, is that you need to understand, you know, what do these participants or the people who you want to join the program, what kind of metaphors do they have about diabetes and diabetes prevention? This is why I think working with metaphor can be actually kind of seamless to integrate into any design process, because a lot of Times we already go out and we talk to our users, right? We already go do interviews, maybe we do focus groups. Maybe we get a lot of qualitative data from users. And so what you can do and sort of the first key thing in using metaphor is that you need to identify your users metaphors. And so you can take the data that you get from them and then you can start to sort of maybe look through transcripts and start to pull out some metaphors. You keep showing up. And so you can imagine that if you're asking people about diabetes, people might say things like, I'm on the road to diabetes. Or they might say things like, you know, I'm not really worried about it, it's far away. Or maybe they'll say, you know, I want to avoid catching diabetes like the plague. And all of those are metaphors. And so once you're able to sort of identify what metaphors your users or customers are already using, you can kind of evaluate them for which ones are going to be best for you to use in your communication going forward. And I say that you should use your users metaphors because the key thing is, and a lot of times in design, we think that novelty is what we need. You know, we want to shake up people's ways of thinking and sweep them off their feet with our really interesting slogans and all of that. But with metaphors, you really are trying to tap into associations and knowledge people already have and to kind of filter them in a way that gets them thinking, maybe even evolves their thinking on some issues where you need that thinking to evolve. And so if you use your users metaphors, that's one way to do it. And so what can be tricky is that you end up with a lot of different metaphorical expressions, right? A lot of different quotes you might be able to get from your customers. But once you have those, you need to kind of figure out, so those are their metaphors in their language. How does that relate to the metaphors that are guiding their thinking? And so there are these higher level, what we call conceptual metaphors that are often tied to those metaphorical expressions. So for example, when people say, I'm on the road to diabetes or it's far away, those are both expressions that tie back to the diabetes is a journey metaphor. They're talking about diabetes as going from point A to point B. Or maybe when they say they want to avoid it like the plague, they're talking about that diabetes is contagious. Essentially, once you know what your users are saying, you can figure out those sort of higher level conceptual metaphors. And this isn't something you have to just know automatically. There's a ton of fabulous resources. For example, George Lakoff and Mark Johnson's Metaphors We Live by book has done a fantastic job of, of cataloging these. And there's also a database at Stanford University that's identified hundreds of these conceptual metaphors. So those are a handy thing to have when you're trying to figure out what your user's metaphors are.

Yeah. And hopefully, so definitely we'll have a link to Metaphors We Live by in the show notes to have a link to that book. And hopefully you can share the stuff from Stanford as well and we can be linking that in the show notes. I know there's going to be plenty of stuff in the show notes for sure.

Yeah. So once you kind of have your users metaphors, you of course need to evaluate them because they're going to give you a ton of them. I know there are definitely some, you know, metaphor elicitation techniques and things like that, which are, you know, brilliant ways to organize user interviews. But I think even if you're just talking to your users and you really listen, you're going to be able to pull out the metaphors. They're just going to hand them to you. Right. So once you have them, you just need to kind of evaluate them and figure out, okay, which of these metaphors that they give, that they've given me are going to align with my sort of behavioral outcome, with the behavior that I want them to do. You know, which metaphors are going to create urgency to act, which metaphors are going to bring the right associations. And very critically, you know, what metaphors are going to elicit positive emotions, because we know that positive emotions are what drive behavior. And so, for example, you know, with diabetes, you know, say you hear your users talking about diabetes as an enemy. You know, they're talking about it similar to that warframe we were talking about with, with the pandemic. So they're saying that they, they're going to put up a good fight against diabetes or they, they're going to fight it with diet, or that it's just going to sneak up on them. That's an interesting metaphor. But the problem with that is that it may mobilize people for action, but people who are trying to prevent diabetes don't have it yet. And so there's not really anything to fight. What people really need is to do prevention behaviors. And so similar to the pandemic example, exactly like it primes you for action, but what you really need is more like self restraining behaviors so you can evaluate metaphors like that and try to figure out like which ones are actually going to sort of prime the right behaviors.

Yeah, definitely. So I really think this is so. I think it's all fascinating. Of course, as we know as I'm like gushing over this whole episode and I know that I've had a couple other interviews between when we had our conversation and then now where we're booked, where I've been on other people's shows or things and people say, oh, what are you interested in right now? And I'm saying, ah, cognitive semiotics. Like, like it's the new thing that I'm so interested in. And I've, I've been loving metaphor and stuff too. So, so we, we know that we have the problem or the, you know, the project we're working on, we're needing to identify. I love this idea of being able to take the step back and say, you know, focus groups, user interaction, ethnographic research, whatever, all the things that people have tools at their disposal already. Something you can go back in and dig up old data that you didn't know you were going to be using for this purpose on whatever project or product you have in front of you. You don't have to spend a bunch of new money. You know, potentially you have this existing somewhere already or social media feeds or whatever else. I know that was something else that was in some of the stuff we've talked about outside of this conversation. But you have lots of ways where you can go and find what people are actually saying. And then if you break that down and you look for the metaphors that exist and then start to group them into the categories in the way people are talking about it and then you can find those higher level conceptual metaphors and then we start to evaluate which is going to help me on the action I need someone to take. So like you said, the fight against diabetes doesn't really work in the, this stage where we're looking for preventative action and that's maybe not going to align. So, so when we go to do that process, you know, what are some of the other metaphor, those conceptual level ones that might have not worked and kind of where did you go to what does work? And you know, once you figure that out, you know, what next?

Yeah, so I think another one that, that might work that I kind of want to use for the, the rest of talking through this example is the diabetes is A journey metaphor. So that's the high conceptual metaphor. And you know, that's when people say, you know, I'm not too worried about it, it's far away. Which in some sense isn't great because there's not much urgency to act. But a positive thing about that is that, you know, it can be quite scary if you're headed towards some negative health outcomes. And the journey metaphor kind of places those at a distance from the person. Like you're not asking somebody to think about being sick or to, you know, it can be overwhelming to face illness. So I think that the diabetes is a journey metaphor, is one that is particularly suited to this. And also people are like, have a lot of agency, right. On a journey, you get to decide where you want to go. So you give people this feeling that they, you know, they are empowered, they can do something, they can make decisions along the journey that will change their course and potentially change the destination.

If I can just really quick, I think that. Sorry, that just made me think here even of a very related metaphor, but one that would be potentially harmful here is by telling people they're at a crossroads, like where you're looking at the prevention and we're a little bit further back and it's tied in with the journey piece. But if you say that it's now or never, you're at the crossroad. But we're looking for a longer term thing and that there's some opportunity for airing, you know, as we go and that we're not totally off base as long as we're headed in the right direction. Sort of, you know, pieces with the journey, longer distance that can help in this particular example.

Yeah, I think, I think that's a really great point. And also, you know, you don't do a prevention behavior once it's kind of sustained action. So I don't think a metaphor conveying that would necessarily be. Be helpful or accurate because it's not like a one time action and then you're forever on the right course. Right. You want people to kind of change little habits over a long period of time. I think it's technically called lifestyle change. Right. Like you kind of have to change your whole life one little piece at a time. So that's a really great point you bring up.

Thanks.

Yeah, sorry to interrupt you as you're doing that. So we're on the journey metaphor.

We're on the journey metaphor. Yeah. So we decide that that's one that we think is going to resonate and that's going to capture what we need it to for the people who we want to onboard onto this program. And I think the next critical piece is that whatever metaphor you use to describe your user's problem, you need to use the same metaphor to describe the solution. So I think not to come out of the diabetes example, but there's a lot of literature about this. So, for example, in studies where they describe depression as being physically down, people seem to think that the antidepressant is going to be more effective when it's described as being elevating. So you can see that being physically down, the opposite of that, would be elevating. And similarly, when depression is described as being dark or darkness, people have more hope for it and think the medication is going to work for them when the antidepressant is described as illuminating. So you can very clearly see there that the same metaphor is framing both the problem and solution. And so if we come back to our diabetes example, if we say someone's on the road to diabetes or they're on the path to diabetes, then a way to position our solution, our prevention program, would be to say, this is an exit from the road, for example. You have the ability to take an exit or you have an ability to get on a different path or something like that. And that would be using the same metaphor for problem and solution.

Yeah, absolutely. And with that, making sure, again, that you're just really thoughtful about taking the metaphor, really thinking through all the ripples and steps of what this might mean, and not just the first thing that came to your mind as tying to the metaphor, but, like, what. What am I missing in this metaphor? Like when you were talking about love. Right. So it's all consuming, it's hot, it's if it's fire.

Right.

And we're saying that there are very. There are a lot of different things someone could be associating with fire if you're using that. And so to get what that could mean and make sure that, well, it's possible that not absolutely everything is going to fit where you're going every single time, making sure that the bulk of them are taking you in the right direction with the language or imagery that you do choose. So even, like, you're talking about the journey and taking an exit is different than taking a detour on this diabetes conversation. Right, because detour, we're going back to where we were, and that's bad.

And I mean, detour just implies you're going to end up in the same place anyway. Whereas an exit might get you to a Completely different result, which can feel, hey, I want that. I don't want to get diabetes. I want my actions to matter. I want to do something that's actually going to help me live a healthier life, not just kind of delay getting diabetes by a few years. Right.

Take a really long road to get there.

Yeah, no thanks. Give me the shortcut. But you can see, like, how easy it was to kind of take what you just said and then come up with some, you know, really negative thoughts about what that program might be. Mm, mm.

That's. So I'm linking, obviously to the episode about priming, which we've talked about already. I'm linking to the episodes on the Senses in the show notes because I think that's going to be really important as well. And definitely going to link to the episode on framing and its worksheets. Because this process of looking at, you know, what's the best case scenario, what this means, how if it's said in a different way, what might that mean?

Really?

Like taking you down the path and then seeing what's the worst case of what this might mean to someone and really dialing down, digging in on that to make sure that it aligns with what you want to be said and the negatives aren't too negative for what you want, and that it's all going to work together is really, really important to think those through as you choose the right one that you want to move forward with. And I know as one of the things on the list of stuff to do, which I might be skipping one in this process, but is to test.

Right.

You have to start to test what you're going to use.

Yeah. So I think with, with metaphors, it's particularly important because, you know, like I mentioned, metaphors kind of trigger or call to mind associations or experiences that your users already have. And because everyone's coming to, you know, coming with different life experiences and different associations, and maybe you're designing for a culture that's not your own, Right. And you can't even possibly know what those associations are going to be that are going to be triggered. You can do your best to kind of, you know, choose a metaphor that you think is going to work. But it's the same with any time we're designing and iterating, Right. Like, you take a best guess and then you put it out there and you test it and you get feedback and you, you know, like I said, metaphors are little packages of meaning, and users are the ones who create that meaning when they, when they Open that package. And so you really need to make sure that, yeah, you're having the intended meaning effects and it will be different for different people. But those primary metaphors that I mentioned a bit earlier, those are cross cultural. Those are deeply embodied. So if you, if you're using those, you can be a little bit more confident usually that they're going to produce similar meanings across groups of people. People and across individuals. But, but still, yes, test is always best.

Yes, for sure. We want to do lots and lots of testing and it can be on a pretty simple level. Again, it doesn't have to be really, really expensive stuff when you're doing those tests. So, you know, checking things out in that way. If you can do one more piece on this example, because a really thought it was very enlightening to be experiencing and knowing that people can't see the design here of this sort of landing page and the, the text that was put together about, you know, diabetes in this way. But if you can kind of read through what the language was for that and then we can show the. What was wrong, it seems good. But we're missing something and why, that would be really helpful, I think.

Yeah, absolutely. So let's just imagine, you know, we're working on this diabetes prevention program project still. We've chosen the journey metaphor and we're pretty confident that we're going to describe it as people being on the road to diabetes. And we want to position our program as an exit from the road. And so our first task is to go and, you know, design our landing page that's going to be conveying this concept and linking to where people can register for the program. So you can imagine one version where you have a few different copywriters working on it. And it reads a little something like this. So the headline might say, are you on the road to diabetes? And then underneath it might say, we've got some not so sweet news. This could increase your chance of getting diabetes later in life. Join our prevention program and, you know, it'll keep you safe. Register now and then maybe there's a little bit of information about, you know, saying no to diabetes. Is what you're eating making you sick? You can prevent getting diabetes by making lifestyle changes like eating healthier, exercising more, and losing weight. You know, this program is going to teach you how to fight diabetes one meal at a time. And so when I read that, you might have thought, okay, it's maybe not the best writing, but that doesn't seem so bad. Right? It started off really strong. We're immediately invoking the metaphor early on Road to Diabetes. So, yeah, it doesn't seem so bad. But if you kind of take a closer look or a closer listen, I might say there are so many mixed metaphors in a piece of communication like I just read. So on the Road to Diabetes, that's invoking the diabetes as a journey metaphor. But when we say join our program, it can keep you safe. That again, is coming back to, like, an enemy or a warframe, like, keeping you safe from an enemy. If we say, say no to diabetes, that metaphor is that diabetes is a choice, you know, and then if we say, is what you're eating making you sick? That metaphor is that diabetes is contagious. And so just in a few sentences of text, I've used now, like four or five different metaphors. And what's problematic about that, and kind of a simple way to remember it is that mixed metaphors are like mixed messages, basically. First of all, they increase cognitive load. It can take somebody longer to process and understand what you're trying to communicate. And because of the way metaphors frame our thoughts, they activate. They're very exclusive. Once you invoke a metaphor, that's the narrative, and those are the associations that are going to be called to mind. But if you change the metaphor, it's like changing the story mid sentence. All of a sudden, it's a completely different scene, completely different story. And so if you keep changing your metaphors, it's basically like changing the channel all the time. And so you can understand how that would be, first of all, less motivating, less convincing, but also potentially confusing.

Definitely. And so I know that the. If you have the example of the kind of better language where we put it together just to help someone to see, because I know we. Because we do use metaphors so often, this is not something that's going to be super easy for the listener for anyone to jump in and just get right. It's going to take some work, but it's worth it. So if you can give this other example of how it kind of holds the metaphor throughout, I think that'll help people.

Yes. So I think a fantastic exercise to do is when you have decided on what your kind of core metaphor for that moment in the journey is going to be, you take it and try to carry it through. Carry it through the entire communication. So compared to what I. The example I just gave, if we want to take the. You're on the road to diabetes, our program is an exit journey metaphor. And carry it through a Piece of communication might read something a little bit more like this. So we might say, are you on the road to diabetes? Our program will help you take your health in a new direction, choose a better destination. Our program is proven to work from day one. We'll pair you with a personal coach to get your health on track. So again, talking about new directions, better destinations, getting back on track, those are things that all conceptually make sense and kind of help complete the story of, you know, this decision making moment that we're, we're, we're in with this user.

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's just so valuable to show that really it truly is especially, you know, very thoughtful about it as you go through. But really, every sentence, every word is a possibility of being metaphor. And we don't even realize it. I've been so aware as we're talking and all the times I've said digging in on something and all of that. But you, you know, write something or look, go look at your about us page or your sales page of your website or an ad that you put out there or anything else, you know, and just go and look and see if you can. I. My tip would be, and, you know, definitely, Sarah, jump in with all of what's missing here for this first task, but I think is to go and try to just circle all the metaphors first. Right? Just, just trying to find them around you. And it's, it's often easier to, to look at other people's stuff than to be kind of critical of our own. So maybe go look at some other company's website, some that you like or somewhere you didn't want to buy. You know, find all the metaphors, try and see what they're really saying. And then you just practice and see how you might carry a metaphor through. What might that look like? Just doing a little practice.

Yeah, that's a fantastic idea. And you know, once you do circle or find those metaphors, even if you just take one of them and you know, kind of jot down some associations you have with it that just kind of shows you, like how your thinking might be influenced by, you know, the words that this company is putting out there. And I think you'll be surprised at how many associations you do have with it and you can almost go on forever. So just kind of prove to yourself how powerful some, even just a single word might be.

Yes.

The virus or the beast.

Right.

A little change can make so much of a big, big difference. Well, speaking of going on and on forever, I feel like, well, for one, I'm sorry for you that you have to hang out with me probably for the whole nine days. I'm going to be in Austin for South by Southwest here in what's going to be a couple of months. And I'm so excited to continue our conversation many, many times into the future. But for now we'll have to leave it here. And for everyone who I'm sure is so excited to learn more about you and your work, we'll have links in the show notes. But what's the best way for people to connect with you and learn more and get projects or whatever else?

LinkedIn would be one place where we met or also just@sarahive neuronlabs.com so I'm always. You can always reach me there. Reach out about anything, questions, comments. I'd be super happy to hear from you guys.

Perfect. Well, we'll definitely have links in the show notes. I don't know, put email addresses in the show notes because I care about your inbox and you not getting spammed by the bots of the world. So that's a special treat for everyone who's listening that you have that now.

She said her email, you can go.

Write it down and send her a message. And you absolutely should. Or connect with me. I can get you connected. All the things we'll keep talking. Thank you so much again, Sarah, for coming and talking about metaphor and cognitive semiotics and all the amazing things of the brain today. It's been a lot of fun to chat with you.

Thank you again to Sarah Thompson for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I just adore how much value there is in brain association and understanding the main root metaphors and how our brains process information. I love knowing how this can be used for advertising and communicating value in teams and having better relationships at home and helping people to care about the planet or to help combat depression and for people to be more likely to adhere to their goals. It is so important in everything we do and I've gotten a little obsessed.

With it, to put it bluntly.

Now I'm thinking about the term putting it bluntly and wondering why we decided to use that metaphor when I'm being clear and firm. Isn't that more sharp than blunt? Why do we say this and how did it become popular? Resisting Rabbit hole Must not Google Anyway.

I've been really focusing on metaphor and.

Semiotics for the past year to 18 months and everything I uncover is helping me to see how deeply ingrained this is in behavioral economics and how I think it's a next exciting frontier for the field, a way to go a.

Bit deeper, to learn a bit more.

At least that's where I think my career is taking me. Cognitive Semiotics Understanding how the mind makes meaning is so key to understanding behavior, and I can't wait to keep learning and researching more and more in this space in the years to come. If you or someone you know is working in cognitive semiotics or doing a lot of work in metaphor, please do connect with me as I would love to have a conversation. Find me as the Brainy Biz on all the socials and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. You can also email melinathebrainybusiness.com to start a conversation. I can't wait to hear from you. And now that you're all excited about metaphor and semiotics, let me recommend two more episodes from the back catalog for you to check out, which are linked for you in the show notes. The first is my conversation with Malcolm and Hannibal Brooks from Olson Zaltman discussing how they and the team there use metaphor to help brands with some really great case studies. I'm also linking to my interview with Rachel Laws on her books Using Semiotics in Retail and Using Semiotics in Marketing. Fascinating stuff I know you're going to love. Those are both linked for you in the show notes for the episode, along with other great resources from Sarah, more books and and ways to get in contact with her and myself, and so much more. Those show notes are found within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com259 and thank you again to Sarah Thompson for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast.

It's going to be a lot of fun you have.

You won't want to miss it.

Until then.

Thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com them.