269. Getting Along: How to Work with Anyone, featuring Harvard Business Review’s Amy Gallo

Welcome to episode 269 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why people Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Amy Gallo, contributing editor at the Harvard Business Review and author of Getting Along. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello.

Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation I am joined by Amy Gallo. Amy is an expert in conflict communication and workplace dynamics. She combines the latest management research with practical advice to deliver evidence based ideas on how to improve relationships and excel at work. She has written two books, the HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict and her newest, which we're discussing today, Getting along, how to work with Anyone, Even Difficult People. In her role as a contributing editor at Harvard Business Review, Amy writes about interpersonal dynamics, communicating ideas, leading and influencing people, and building your career. And we're going to talk a little bit about how she found herself at HBR during our conversation today. Amy has contributed to numerous books on feedback, emotional intelligence, and managing others, and is the co author of the HBR Guide to Building your Business Case. She's also the co host of HBR's Women at Work podcast which is in its eighth season. She's contributed to other books and has taught at both Brown University and UPenn and is an all around wonderful person I'm so delighted to have met. It's kind of a fun and serendipitous story as to how Amy ended up on the show today after finding out that I was going to be speaking at south by Southwest, which I have time to have this episode come out on the day of my talk, because why not? I was scrolling through to see who else had been invited to speak and I saw Amy's name as one of the featured speakers in the same track I'm in, which is called Workplace Revolution. I made a little mental note of the name and went on with my day. Then a few days or maybe a week later, when the name was still fresh in my mind, I got an email, I think it was probably from the Harvard Business Review, announcing that Amy was doing a talk in Seattle about her new book Getting along and there was an opportunity to sign up and get a ticket. It felt like it was absolutely meant to be, and even in the worst case supporting another author on a book tour felt like a good thing to do.

So I got my ticket and hauled it up the hour and a half to Seattle on a Tuesday night for.

Her talk and I'm just so glad that I did. She mentioned Dolly Chug and her book A More Just Future during that town hall session, and I was interviewing Dolly the next week and she's also speaking at south by Southwest. Being the, let's say, assertive person I am, I made it a point to introduce myself and say hello and mention south by Southwest and the podcast. And Amy was kind enough to connect with me again, even though I'm sure I was way overly enthusiastic and excited to meet her.

And so after things settled down from.

Her fantastic book tour in the holidays, we caught up and did this interview. And speaking of serendipitous information, she let me know that her first time speaking at south by Southwest, she had the exact same time slot as I have now, day one at 2:30pm so I'm going to take that as a good sign and I'm so excited for the talk. It's a little meta to think that I'm writing this several weeks in advance, but you're going to potentially be listening to this in the midst of my session. So wherever you are, send me some positive vibes.

I appreciate them, even if it's way after the fact.

Always good to get good thoughts. And as I know that not everyone is familiar with south by Southwest and you may be wondering why I'm making a big deal about this event. It's massive over 10 days with a film festival, music festival, food festival, comedy festival, and a conference focused on innovation and technology. According to their website, 278,681 people attended this conference last year in 2022 and there are lots of side events that aren't even part of the conference that even more people attend. It's massive. I have never been and I'm just ready to be swept up in the magic of it. In addition to myself, Amy and Dolly Chug, who are all speaking there this year, Nancy Harhut, who wrote Using Behavioral Science and Marketing and was a guest on the show last year, will also be presenting a couple hours before me on Friday. Congrats Nancy. And she is the one who encouraged me to apply. So thank you. There are links to all those books and episodes and lots of other related.

Content for you in the show notes.

Which are waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 2, 6, 9. All right, enough on all that backstory and serendipitous goodness. Let's jump right in on how to get along with anyone, even difficult people. Amy Gallo, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

Thank you so much for having me, Melina. I'm excited about this conversation.

Absolutely. I'm so, so delighted. As I will have said in the intro, we've got south by Southwest connections, and I saw that you were also then coming to Seattle to promote your book. And so I did the haul. It's 90 minutes or so to drive up there to go solidarity, support you doing your talk. Cause these days, you know, I was like, in person stuff at night, you know, it's like there are going to be two people there or 200 people there. You know, who knows? Right, Right.

You are such a trooper for making that trip and showing up.

I love it.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well. And I want. And I'm so glad that I did, for all the reasons. And, you know, being able to read your book, it's just such a perfect fit for what we talk about here on the show, and I'm so excited to share it with everyone. And before we get to the book.

Can you share a little bit about.

Your yourself and your background in the work that you do? Sure.

So I wear many hats. One of them is book author, which we'll talk about. Another is contributing editor at Harvard Business Review, where I edit articles, write articles, and also am a co host of the Women at Work podcast. And the third hat I wear is as a leadership coach. And I have a very small leadership coaching practice where I work with executives mostly around communication and conflict, the topics that I love.

Yeah, well, while it's not all about such things, I know a thousand percent, everyone listening has dreamed at some point, maybe not everyone, we'll say 99.9% have dreamed about, you know, being featured in Harvard Business Review, contributing an article, things like that. So I think the question is more like, how did you get so involved with, you know, because there's one thing to be a contributor and get something there, and then there's multiple. And then to be doing the editing and podcasting, like, what's the, you know, tie in, you know, with HBR any.

Yeah, well, it's, you know, it's one of those things where you'd never plan your career. Things just sort of happen and you end up somewhere. And. And, um, I really never thought I'd be an editor at hbr, actually. Never thought I'd be an editor. I. I worked earlier in my career as a management consultant. Before that, I actually worked at HIV prevention organizations right out of college. And through all of those roles, I always really loved writing. And so I would gravitate toward any assignment or project that that involved me writing something. And I wrote some stuff for the consulting firm I was working with that caught the attention of some HBR editors. And I had a friend, actually, who worked at hbr and she asked me, she's like, well, why don't you write some copy for us? And so I just started writing, actually. It's very funny. The first thing I wrote for them was the Management Tip of the Day, which is one of their newsletters that summarizes an article and a specific tip. Sort of an actionable.

I received that, yes.

And it's. It's their most popular newsletter now. And it's. It's. I worked on it for over a decade, so it was the first thing I did. And that. And that just sort of snowballed. It went from there to, you know, writing articles, and then we sort of formalized the relationship. I became a contributing editor and I started acquiring articles as well. And then the podcast, the Women at Work Podcast, actually launched right in the. The. Right around the MeToo movement. You know, HBR really wanted to have a response to the shifting norms in the workplace and what we were seeing around gender in workplace culture. And I actually, it was a project that started with three other editors, and one of them left HBR and they asked me to sit in for her. And I was thrilled. It was actually one of my favorite podcasts as a listener. And I was. It's funny if you go back and listen to my first episode, there's just a very short episode where they introduce me and we chat, me and Nike chat about the podcast. And I sound giddy. Like I really. I'm like, I sort of can't believe I'm sitting in that chair. And it's still, to this day one of my favorite projects I work on. So to answer your question more directly, a lot of it was luck. And it just sort of built. It was a very small. I was just writing copy for, you know, it was like an hourly thing. And then it snowballed from there. And it's. I love being part of the organization. It's obviously very high quality publication, but it's also the people who work there are just super high quality people. And I feel lucky that it's my organizational home at the moment.

Oh, I love that. And I love that. Like you said, it wasn't feel like so many of the best stories are the. I was doing the thing I love to do and someone found me. It's the, like, sure, it's serendipitous, and it shows the value of getting along with people and about having good relationships and being, you know, giving first and then, you know, good things happen. I talk about that all the time. And of course, it ties in with your book, so.

Sure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it. It's. You know, I'm sure some people would say, don't say you're lucky. Like, you worked hard to get where you were. And it's true. It wasn't. You know, I. I did put in a lot of work on my writing and on the ideas that I was writing about and. And in building relationships. You know, building relationships with my colleagues, but also friends who could make introductions and. And who could also help me see what I was great at. I think that was the. That's the part I loved writing, but I never thought I would do anything with it as a career. And, you know, I had friends who were like. And actually even a mentor at the consulting firm who was just. He said, you are the only person who I don't edit. Right. You write something, and I love it. And it just goes out to our clients. And I remember that conversation. I remember exactly where I was standing in that office, even though it was a long time ago, because I was like, oh, he is helping me see what my superpower is. And that's awesome. So helpful.

No, that is awesome. I would also think there's a big lesson for people in. So that management tip of the day. Being something where as someone who is not the best of friends, with brevity, like, love the way.

You.

Know, for my first book, when my publisher said, okay, you can't be less than 35,000 words, I was like, what's the max? What are we.

Give me the high end. Please give me the high end.

Where have we seen a problem on the other side here? So with that, though, you know, being able to write good subject lines, something that's interesting and catchy, but not clickbait, but giving you a good nugget of something where you don't have to read forever and helping to get those. The. What's the point in a little article like that? Because then you can always expand. But I think there's a lot of skill and importance in that with communicating anything.

Yes, absolutely. And I feel grateful that that was my first assignment because two reasons. Exactly what you're saying. It helped me hone the skill of what's the quickest way to say this for an impatient reader? Because we presume you're subscribing to the management tip of the day because you're going to skim it, you're going to see if it's relevant to you. Maybe you'll read all 120 words of it. Maybe you'll, you know, just read the opening line or the headline. Um, so that was, it helped me hone that skill. But then it also exposed me to a lot of what we were publishing. In order to write those management tips, I had to read those articles. I'd read other articles we decided not to pull a management tip from. And I got very familiar with the work that was being done by academics, by thought leaders, you know, by executives who were writing for HBR to see what ideas were out there. And that really started, that is what led to me writing is because I could see there was so much good work being put out there by people in different fields. And I, all of my work, my first book, the HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict and my most recent one, are taking research that others have done and I don't do any primary research myself. So taking that research and trying to figure out, okay, what is the most sort of useful, helpful, practical advice that we can pull from this. And I try to integrate research from different fields, management science, neuroscience, emotional intelligence and let that all inform the advice that I end up giving in my writing.

Yeah, I, I, I'm a big fan of. So back what feels like another lifetime ago when I first started doing consulting work is where I had a full time job and then saying, oh, I need a little, you know, this was the side hustle of things, right. And said ah, I'm, I love to read. I'm typically like correcting people's grammar as I'm reading anyway. And so I started doing book editing where I had a friend that helped people get their books written and you know, published. And so I went through and did book editing and reading about how to optimize the lighting and getting people into be use a dressing room at a, at a retail location because it increases the likelihood they're going to buy. And another one is the Myers Briggs personality type expert piece. And then just, just so many different types of books on very different things and always going well that's interesting. I want that, I wonder how that applies personal finance or you know, right. Making all those associations that don't seem like they go together and then Bringing them together is one of my favorite things. And I think knowing a little bit about a lot of things and a lot about a few things is a really good balance to being able to make interesting connections.

Yeah, we are compatriots in that for sure.

For sure. Well, speaking of that, as I was reading your book, there's so much of like, oh, I say that all the time. Oh, I totally agree with that. Right. So let's talk a little bit about getting along and how you, of course, get along perfectly with every person you've.

Ever met in your whole life. Right.

That's what the book's about.

That's right. I have nothing but high quality drama, free relationships in every arena of my life. Thanks for recognizing.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. You're wonderful and perfect in every relationship. Okay, so in case the listener can't pick up on the sarcasm, that's of course not the world that we live in. So share a little bit about what getting along is really about.

Yeah, I mean, and to be clear, I mean, obviously very sarcastic, but I don't think I could write a book about relationships and high quality relationships at work if I hadn't made a lot of mistakes and continue to make them. Right. That's how we learn. So, you know, and for me, getting along is not about we smile and we see eye to eye on everything. And you give me an idea and I'm like, that's perfect, I'm gonna run with it. Right. It is about navigating the messiness of human interaction and recognizing that we are not all our best selves all the time, especially at work, and that we need the skills and emotional intelligence skills, negotiation skills, communication skills to be able to make the most of these very important relationships. And I say very important because we spend a lot of time at work, for sure. So it would be, it's much more pleasant to actually get along with people you work with. But there's also decades of research that show that people perform better, have higher cognitive functioning, are more resilient, see challenges as less thorny if they have friends at work. And so, and I'm not, you know, the book is really about dealing with difficult people. And I'm not saying that that really challenging person is going to become your bff, but there are ways to make that relationship more productive, evidence based ways to make that relationship more productive. And even if it doesn't end up being positive, at least making it neutral so it's not having the mental and physical toll that we know those, those tricky relationships do. Have on us.

Yeah, for sure.

In my second book, I talk a lot about the. The time pressure and the stress it creates on people when there's. In this case in what your employees need and can't tell you. I'm talking about it from the sake of extra deadlines and all the miscommunications of not sharing as much up front and the like. Do you have five minutes and a slack chat and the thing and just all. If we were. We're a little more thoughtful up front, we could reduce this time and we have more time to be creative and think. But I love that in this way. And what you're saying is the same problem from a different piece of. We've all had that person that's difficult to work with at work that we don't get along with. And I, you know, in the. You have so many things that one relates to as they're reading at various relationships over time and like say the. The name that comes in on your inbox and you go, ugh, yeah, that's right.

You're like, oh boy, do I have to open this?

Right, right. And we don't want to have that. And that's a conditioned response that we've created. So it's one that we can adjust if we focus on it. So it doesn't create that same stress, you know, thinking about just all the extra cognitive load that comes from these difficult relationships. And you have stories about, you know, from yourself or from others that it's the, you know, at night you can't stop thinking about the thing. I particularly love the story and it's pretty early on, but of the email of the person. So you already know what I'm saying. I do.

I call him Brad. That's not his real name, but yes, it's. This email is someone who wanted to write for HBR and sent in a pitch to another editor and then followed up with me and asked if we could hop on the phone. And to be clear like this, that's part of my job is to find new contributors. But I also, if I got on the phone with every would be contributor, I would be on the phone right now and probably into like 2030. Right. It's just there's. I simply just don't have the time. And it looked like we weren't going to accept the submission he had put in. So again, it wasn't a good use of my time. So I declined politely twice. And after the second polite decline, I think it was polite. He wrote an email telling me that he couldn't handle the ego, that human connection was the most important thing and that he was going to take his writing elsewhere. And, you know, I probably received, let's be conservative, 150 emails that day. I cannot tell you what any of them said, but I can recite that that interaction was over two years ago. And I can recite word for word what he wrote in that email because it was so upsetting. And it's. And I was up for three nights in a row thinking about, was he right? Like, do I not care about human connection? Should I have gotten on the phone with him? Maybe the. Maybe my email wasn't as polite as I thought it was. And then, you know, of course, the, like, what a jerk thoughts. Right? Then just the. The. And the revenge fantasies of, I'm gonna send him an email that sets him straight. I'm gonna publish his email on social media. Like, just the horrible things. Luckily, none of which I did. And it's actually funny you bring up that story, Valena, because I was read. I just did a talk two nights ago in New York City, and someone in the audience had read the book and said, I don't think you handled the Brad situation right and actually really challenged me on it. And it was. It was. First of all, I love difficult questions during a talk just because it's, you know, it's what I study. So I'm like, how are we going to handle this conflict? This is fun. But also it. It pushed me to think, like, did I feel like I handled it correctly? And I do. I still feel strongly that it wasn't worth my time to have the call. I was quite polite. I explained why I wouldn't be able to meet with him. And, you know, it's still. But it's still in there. And I think it really speaks to the negativity bias of. Our brains are so wired to scan for threats that we are so focused on negative things. Whether that's a negative email. Right. A snarky email like the one Brad sent, or whether it's a challenging relationship. Right. I can have 45 positive interactions at work, but if one person challenges me in a meeting and, you know, I go home at the end of the day, or I log off at the end of the day, what I tell my spouse is, oh, listen to what happened in this meeting. I don't say, oh, I had a great interaction with so and so. And so and so is doing good. You know, we're really focused on the negative, right?

Yeah. So the person who challenged you at the talk.

Now I'm intrigued. What. What did they. What were they suggesting you should have done differently in the Brad interaction? That you should have had the call or that you should have. Oh, yeah.

Well, she thought it was a missed opportunity for a connection. She thought Brad was right about human connection. Now I see her point. I have to say, it's funny. She's also. She identified herself as a. As a conflict mediation expert. So she was also coming to. To that story with some expertise. And I think she thought, well, yeah, you missed out on this is part of your job is assessing potential contributors. And why wouldn't you have the call? And it's. A few of my fellow editors were in the audience, and afterwards they were like, do they understand? Like, how many. And. And, you know, I don't. I didn't feel I owed Brad anything. But she saw it differently. She thought Brad, you know, as someone who had put effort into writing a pitch, into doing research on what we were looking for in articles, that I did owe him the courtesy of a phone call. I'm still very glad I didn't have it. But I think her perspective points out something really important, which I talk about in the book, which is that Brad has a different viewpoint of what happened than I do. Strangers, now that I've shared that story, you know, in my book, strangers have a different viewpoint of that. And anytime you have a tricky interaction with someone, you can't force the person to see it the way you see it. In fact, there's this concept in social psychology called naive realism, which is we believe we're seeing things so clearly, and if someone disagrees with us, then they're misinformed or they're just wrong. And I think that. That her challenging me was a classic example of that, which is that no one, you know, and actually, if we think about, like, another editor who had been on the receiving end of the. The Brad exchange, they might have handled it differently. Maybe they would have had the call. Maybe they would have ignored his email and never responded at all. Right. But who knows? And so that's, I think, one of the most important things when we're interacting with others and we find ourselves triggered or upset or feeling like, ugh, this person is so difficult, that there are many ways to view that situation, and you have to own your interpretation as your perspective.

Yeah, I was gonna. Where it felt like we're jumping ahead in a lot of ways, but, you know, so you have your nine principles that come up in toward the end of the book, the end of Part two. And where one of them being your perspective is just one perspective and to have that awareness and there's the confirmation bias that's in there. And so whenever I do a talk on confirmation bias, I'll show an image. I'll say like, tell me in less than three words what this image is about. I'm going to show it for a very short period of time. Ready, go. And you know, two seconds and then it's gone. And you know, then people shout something out and I have a couple that I know where I can say like, thank you, you're all wrong. That's not what the image is about. Like, it's actually about this other thing, you know, that's something super obscure that happened to be there. Like what? You're ridiculous. And we do that at work all the time, right. Where we say like, this is the only way to be right. Wendy Smith was just on the show talking about both and thinking and how, you know, paradoxical issues we have at work. And the again, your perspective is just one perspective. And being able to step back and know that for me to be right doesn't mean everyone else has to be wrong.

That's right. That's right. And your interpretation of what's appropriate behavior at work is not going to be the same.

Right.

And I think that's one of the things, especially if you think about working in cross cultural organizations, organizations that have a lot of diversity, which hopefully your organization does because it leads to lots of great outcomes that you are not like you're going to disagree on everything from whether it's okay to be late to a meeting to what's the solution for this quarter's budget shortfall. Right. And, and in deciding that someone is just simply wrong or their behavior is inappropriate. Right. I can't tell you how many people will come up to me and say, listen to what my coworker did. And they're like, isn't that inappropriate? Like, well, they seem to think it was appropriate. So I can have my own judgment on it. But it's up to you and that person to find a path forward. It's not you to decide. I'm the judge of their behavior. Now of course there is behavior that is harmful, disrespectful, Right. And that we have to acknowledge and have rules and norms about. But a lot of the stuff like is it okay to say send a one word response to an email. Right. Some people would be like, they are so rude. Right. And others are like efficient. Love it. Great. Thank you so much.

Yes. That reminds me of Zoe Chance in Influences yous Superpower. And she says no is a complete sentence. No, thank you is a polite complete sentence.

That's right.

That's right.

I love Zoe.

That's great. I know. Who doesn't love Zoe? She's just one of my favorite people. So let's talk a little bit about the book. So you have the seven types. Eight. Okay, I know that's. I was getting the. It's like nine principles and the, you know, sometimes.

I know it's funny, that is something we discussed in the editing. Like, is it confusing? Do we need the same number of principles as the archetypes? But anyway, yes, we've got eight archetypes, nine principles. I find it pretty straightforward. I hope others do.

Oh, for sure. I just didn't make a good note. I didn't make a good note. Now I know. So with those, can you share a little bit about the eight archetypes and the structure of the book here? Because we all. And I really loved when you were talking about this at the town hall in Seattle. And I would buy no means expect you to remember any of what you said in any particular talk because I'm sure talk about it all all the time. But you know, just being able to kind of introduce and show that, you know, anything that is the, like this is the one thing that will always work in every situation and you never have to look at anything else. You know, there are different things that people are doing that are important to be aware of. So kind of how do you sort out the archetypes that you came to and why is it important to look at the different behaviors differently?

Yeah. Well, there were two main things I wanted to do with this book. One is to give people specific evidence based advice for the situation they were dealing with. So a lot of books about difficult people or relationships at work talk very generically about how to address, you know, someone who's pushing your buttons. And what I was finding, especially in my first book did this right. The Guide to Dealing with Conflict was a pretty high level in terms of, well, a very specific approach to handling conflict. But it wasn't about specific types of conflict. And what I would find when I was talking about the book at workshops or keynotes is that inevitably someone would ask me, well, can I tell you about this one situation? And they would want advice for dealing with a certain pattern of behavior. Almost always it was like about passive aggression, believe it or not, I very much believe it. And so what I knew from my work at HBR was like, there is research on these specific patterns of behavior and how to work with someone who exhibits them. Why isn't there a book that actually delivers that specific advice? And so the structure, the reason I structured it around archetypes is I wanted people to be able to see the, what they were experiencing in the description of the archetype. So the common behaviors and then find the several tactics that might or might not work. I don't guarantee any, any, you know, 100% success, but that you can then try out for dealing with that type of behavior that, that you're experiencing. And so then the eight archetypes were based on my interviews with people who were experiencing surveys and interviews with people who were experiencing difficult people at work and what they were noticing about the behaviors that were most common. So the archetypes are really meant to give people a way into the specific advice that they need. I will say the, the thing that I hesitate about the archetypes, and I have a little bit of mixed feelings about them, is I don't want to them to be misused as dismissive labels. I don't want people to decide, Amy's passive aggressive, I don't have to deal with her. Right. Or Paul's a know it all, I'm done with him. Right. It's not. They're not. They're really meant to be. How do I get the tactics that have been shown in research to work for this specific type of behavior? Now, the second thing I wanted to do with the book, and I hadn't seen done much in similar books, was to talk about how identity plays a role, both in terms of how we interpret difficult behavior and also in terms of the tactics that we can use and that are effective for someone who shares the identity that we have. So I do try to pay attention to gender, race, other issues, identity factors, and how that both complicates these tricky interactions, but then also feeds into what we can and cannot do to solve them.

Yeah. And I will say, as a reader of the book, and I'm sure you've gotten this feedback, I think that if they aren't, if they weren't called out in the way that you do, and you do such a great job of using terms that people use anyway, like you said the know it all or like they're just passive aggressive and it's just a thing that you throw out there. And you of course, do a great job too of saying, like, let's not be calling people narcissists. That's a, That's a whole thing like that is a diagnosable condition that's different. Then we just don't slap that label and throw terms like that around. But because it uses language that people already use and then shows, there's a bunch of research that shows some stuff that you can be doing in a way to understand them and yourself and what you're do, what you're contributing to the situation and how. Same with the, you know, focusing illusion, the confirmation bias piece we were talking about already, that if you're going into everything saying, well, they're just this, then they'll always be that. But if you start with you and you make a change, those ripples of change are very, very possible. So I believe, having read the book, that it does a very good job of helping where someone may have done that without the assistance of the book to see that they have a resource to show that that doesn't have to be true. It may have needed to have been true for you before, but it doesn't have to be the way that you proceed. And there are some things that you can be doing and trying and knowing some things that you should definitely not do because it's going to make it worse if you're approaching that archetype in the wrong way.

I appreciate that. I mean, it's nice to hear that it works. But it's also, I mean, you're pointing out one of the themes that I actually don't. I don't think I talk about as explicitly, which is that I really want to give people hope that change is possible. I think one of the things that I see in all my talks and my coaching is that there's just a tendency to really, because of the harm that this uncivil treatment or these patterns of behavior cause, there's just a sort of pessimism about like, well, will they ever change? Will this dynamic ever change? And sometimes the answer is no. But I believe that if we really take a close look on what's happening, what could be motivating that behavior? We, as you say, work on ourselves, change our own reaction, thoughts, behavior, that change is possible. And it may not be possible on the first, second or third try, but it's worth not just for that relationship, but for you as a person to continue to try. Because that's how we develop that interpersonal resilience, right? Is that we take a tactic that has been shown to work in research, we try it out, we see if it works. It doesn't work. Okay, what did I learn? Move on to Another tactic or. Oh, that actually worked, but let me tweak it a little bit and try again. And really trying to have that scientist experimental mindset for our relationships as opposed to like, oh, God, this is. No, like, this is just the way it is. Which I think is a total human reaction when you're frustrated and when you feel dehumanized, devalued. Right. Like there's. It's a normal reaction to shut down when you're on the receiving end, especially of some of the more harmful behaviors that, that people exhibit at work.

Yeah, definitely. Well, on that.

Can you share a little bit about what the eight archetypes are? And then if you want to, you know, pick one to jump into to share a little bit about to kind of show what people will get from the book. I think that would be fun. And you can pick the most common one or one you don't get to.

Talk about very often.

Whatever feels good to you works for me. Okay, good, good, good.

So the eight are the insecure boss, the pessimist, the victim, the passive aggressive peer, the know it all, the biased co worker, the tormentor, and the political operator. And oh, gosh, it's funny, I. Everyone, sometimes people are like, what's your favorite? I'm like, I don't like any of them. They're all horrible. But I do love, you know, one of the ones I don't get to talk about much is the, is the pessimist. And, and I think it's, it's. I think it's partly because the behavior doesn't feel as extreme as like the passive aggressive, which is incredibly challenging to deal with, or the tormentor. Right. Someone who you expect to be a mentor but actually is undermining you. But the pessimist is interesting because I think all of us have a little bit of that in us and I think we hear a lot lately. And actually I'm curious if you've had guests on who talk about this. But the culture of toxic positivity that's happening in so many organizations where people just this insistence that we, you know, be optimistic and focus on the upsides and sort of any challenge to that happiness feeling is seen as so bad. And I think the pessimist plays an important role. And I think we're losing, we're losing touch with what is important about someone who has a pessimistic attitude now. So that was my preamble for why I wanted to talk about it, but it's also incredibly frustrating. I mean, this is like the eeyore of your office, the Chicken Little, just like the sky is falling. I think in the uk, the Henny Penny is the name of that character. It can be incredibly hindering to progress, right, to actually making meaningful progress on your work together. So it's, it's not just like, oh, it's annoying that someone's a pessimist. It's. It can have real costs for you in terms of your psyche. We know actually pessimism is contagious in the same way optimism is, but also for the team, if it really holds the team back. So in each of the archetype chapters, I talk about what are the common behaviors, what might be motivating this behavior? And for the pessimist, it's interesting. There's this framework in social psychology of prevention focus versus promotion focused. And promotion focused people tend to be optimistic. They look at opportunities, they're. They are expansive in their thinking quite a lot. Whereas prevention focused people are really focused on what are the risks, how do we guard against those coming to be. They tend to be pessimistic. And that is likely what's feeding into your pessimistic colleague's attitude. And then I talk about questions you want to ask yourself before you try to approach, you know, changing the dynamic. So in this case, one of the questions would be, do they have good reason to be pessimistic? Are they pointing out things that are genuinely problems that other people are ignoring? And that's just an example. And then I share, I like to call them a menu of tactics, right? Things you can try out. And also some cautions, like one of the cautions with a pessimist. You know, pessimists think optimists are morons. So if you sit there, if you counter there, like, that will never work with, yes, it will. You're just not seeing the, you know, the upside. They will just dig deeper into their, into their pessimism, into their negativity. So you really want to be careful not to polarize with them. You have to sort of grant them their premise of, yeah, wow, okay, I could see how that wouldn't work. Well, what would make it work? Like, what would have to be true for this to actually succeed? Or if you were in charge, like, how would you remove the obstacles in the way of that, that succeeding, you know, and, and I do try to give sample, I'm a big fan of sample language. Not that you would read that line from, from the book out loud to your colleague, but it does give people a sense of what it sounds like to actually try to put some of this advice in action and really giving. One of the things about optimists is. Or, sorry, pessimists, is that they don't often don't feel like they have agency. Like, they don't feel like they're. They. They think bad things are going to happen and they have no way of changing that. And so giving them agency, even if it's just hypothetical, like, if you were in charge or, well, what could we do? Let's remove all obstacles. Let's not think about cost or time or resources.

What.

What would we be able to do? And just trying to give them that sense of agency. And the other thing is you can give them a formal role to play as, you know, the devil's advocate or disagreer in chief, that they actually, you know, you make it their job to point out the risk. Like, you are really good at identifying what things that we might be missing or things that could go wrong. So we're going to turn to you when we need that perspective.

Right.

And then it's sort of treating their pessimism not as an obstacle or a problem, but as a benefit to the team. And it also helps to sort of. Right. Size that negativity that they might be sharing as opposed to sort of letting them spew it all over the meeting. Right. It gives them a real focal point for that. For that attitude and that perspective, for sure.

And then not just like spinning on all of what they're not able to say. You know, it's like building up the, like, I can't take it anymore and then just go with all the things that have been bugging you. Whereas like you said, if there's some space to share intentionally, and then hopefully, you know, looking for some balance that if they are given the opportunity to share those negative aspects, to then help see some of the positives as well, being part of that process.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And helping all the optimistic morons like me to see. I was, when I was reading it, said, oh, so many people think I'm a moron.

And you know what, to be fair, like, we don't have the best. I mean, I can. I identify as an optimist too. Like, we don't have the best perspective on them. Like, we think they're a total downer. Like. And so it's just sort of trying to bridge that. That gap. I mean, I do, in the book, I think in every chapter, talk about sort of times where I've actually exhibited this behavior. I mean, I identify really with all the of all the archetypes, I identify the most with the know it all but there, you know, I can be passive aggressive. I certainly can be biased. I can play off as politics sometimes. And not the healthiest way. Right. Like, we've all been there. So instead of trying to really put your colleague in this box and use your confirmation bias just to prove how terrible they are, right. You're trying to give that dynamic between you some space to change and evolve. And sometimes saying, like, I get it, like, yeah, I don't have the best outlook today either.

Right?

Like that. That can sometimes bridge that and give them, like you say, like, give them a sense of, like, okay, like, they're not a complete moron. They've got some valid points. And then you hopefully can evolve and transform the dynamic from there.

For sure. We didn't have time to talk about it today, but I love the concept of fundamental attribution error. And I'm going to have my episode on. It is going to be the one that I refresh. I do two episodes a week, so the Tuesday is one from the back catalog, since we're in the. This episode's going to be about 270, 269, something like that, when this one comes out. So there's a lot from, you know, four or five years ago that people haven't, you know, heard maybe. So it's fun to bring them back. So I'll have fundamental attribution error come out just before this one because it's a good one to put in there. I also talk about it in the case of being late for a meeting and how, you know, you give yourself the benefit of the doubt, but other people maybe aren't. You think, oh, what a jerk, they're lazy, whatever else. But the way I say it too, is similar to what you were just saying, is to not have a complex, but know that you are lots of other people's them. In the, like, us versus them world, you're a lot of people's them. And we need to internalize that and do what we can to adjust it.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Someone recently asked me. They're like, if you. If you can't identify anyone you work with who fits into any of the archetypes, does that mean you're one of the archetypes? I was like, I can't say for sure, but there's a good chance you're one of the archetypes, because we all are. And, yeah, I have to go back and listen to that. Episode on Fundamental Attribution Error. It is for me one of the. It's one of the most important concepts when it comes to trying to improve relationships with people who push your buttons is remembering how we're all prone to assign, you know, others with negative attributes when we give ourselves, when we understand the circumstances in which we made all of these decisions. Right. Like, I can rationalize my know it allness to the end of the day, but when someone else talks over me, talks down to me mansplains, I'm like, ugh, what a horrible person.

Right, right, right. For sure. Yeah, it's. I love that concept too. I think it's one too just even understanding our circles of empathy and how we get, you know, siloed organizations and marketing versus finance or whatever that when you say we're team company, you know, it can make things a lot better just by having a tiny shift. When you have more people be part of your us, that can make a big difference. Yeah, I love that.

Make more people part of your us. That's a great. I love that.

Oh, fun. I love it. Well, I could of course talk to you all day. I love all the, the knowledge that you have. I'm so delighted that you came to share it with us here on the show. And of course in Getting along, which we'll have linked in the show notes and for everyone who does want to learn more about you and the book and you know, connect or whatever else follow you somewhere, you know, what's their best path to doing so.

Yeah, well, you can definitely connect with me on LinkedIn or follow me on LinkedIn. But also my website is really the best place amyegallo.com and that has links to where you can buy the book depending on where you like to shop. It also has a link to connect with me via my newsletter to follow me there and any. If you're interested also in my writing for HBR, you can just google hbr.org and my name and you'll see the hundreds of articles I've written there as well as the podcast episodes for women at work.

Absolutely. And we will make it even easier in that all the links will be in the show notes so it's easy for people to find. Knowing that this is potentially a very unfair question because I know that they're all ones babies and favorites. Do you have favorite podcast episode? I know you mentioned the your very first time when you got introduced, but maybe a concept or a topic of something you say people are going to start and they were going to go Listen to one. Do you have one that comes to mind that you would recommend or an article or anything?

There are. Oh, that is really hard to choose. The. I will say the women at work, but don't listen to my first episode because I sound silly. I'm so, like, just, like I said, giddy. But. But there are. There's actually a series of episodes called One is Sisterhood is Scarce. Another is called Sisterhood is Trust, which featured the research of Dr. Tina Opie and her colleague Beth Livingston about how women from different racial backgrounds can work together to create change in their organization and the work that's required, the personal work that's required to make that happen. And those are just some of my favorite episodes we've done. I mean, I could list like 10 right now. The other thing I will say, if you are interested in the book, I did a series of four podcasts for women at work based on the book, where I actually coached women who were having a difficult relationship at work and needed help navigating that. And so I used the archetypes as well as the advice and the book to sort of coach them through how can they make change and transform that dynamic?

Oh, wonderful. Those, I'm sure, are all fantastic. I will make sure to find them and we'll link them in the show notes as well for people to be able to listen to. And like you said, with the language in the book, things like that, being able to hear it straight from you and have some of that language is always so, so helpful. So I'm sure people will enjoy that a lot. And the book definitely worth picking up. Everybody, you will not be sorry when you get that. So thank you again, Amy, for joining me on the show. It was so, so wonderful to learn from you today.

Thank you, Melina. And I look forward to seeing you in Austin.

Yay. Thank you again to Amy Gallo for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I love how Amy has broken up the different archetypes to focus the advice she provides provides. This helps the reader to see their unique situation in the stories and feel empowered to take action based on what they hear. There are so many times where we hear advice and think, yeah, but will that work for my boss? Being more specific and sharing the examples from real people while also summarizing it all so you can get some general tactics that can be helpful when working with anyone. One is so valuable. I feel like those archetypes help you to feel the power to know that this can work to have some tips for what definitely not to do with your specific person and then you can use the general rules to create your action plan. I also really love that Amy gives real language to use instead of just general overarching tips. It's so hard to think of what to say and how to say it. So so this piece is really important for people to really use what they learn in the book, which is the whole point. And you know where I talk about framing and word choice and how everything matters. Having those specific tips of language as you're feeling already uncomfortable is really, really helpful. The other piece I love is how she emphasizes the importance of looking at yourself before you look to change someone else. She gives tips for seeing how you are contributing to every different difficult relationship and to know that it starts with changing you. Yes, some people are really difficult to work with and their behavior is a problem, but in general you can control and start with you and understanding your own brain and theirs is a really great way to have a better time at work. The last thing I want to call out where she does a really great job, and this might be the most important part, is admitting her own own ways that she's made errors along the way, how she can look back and see herself in many of the archetypes. This helps to humanize the experience both from that difficult person you are working with so you give them a little more room to be seen as a person and not just an enemy, as well as knowing that none of us are perfect. Being passive aggressive once or twice or 50 times in your life doesn't mean you're a bad person or always passive aggressive and you don't have to be that way forever. And if you don't, they don't either. There's always room to change both for yourself and those you work with, and getting along is a great way to better understand what you've been doing yourself in life and work and have a better experience with everyone tomorrow to get your copy of Getting along and all the other books mentioned in this episode, including those from my south by Southwest cohort. More Just Future by Dolly Chug, Using Behavioral Science and Marketing by Nancy Harhut and my books what your customer wants.

And can't tell you and what your.

Employees need and can't tell you.

They're all in the show notes for.

You, along with related past articles and episodes atthebrainybusiness.com 269 and if you haven't already sent positive vibes or happy thoughts to all the speakers and performers at south by Southwest. Now's a great time to do so. I'm sure we will all feel it in Austin, no matter where you're listening from. And if you happen to be at south by Southwest, come find me. Connect on LinkedIn or Twitter where you can find me as the Brainy Biz and I'm sure we can find a time to say hi. I already know of so many people who are going and I can't wait to meet them in person. Many of them for the time first. First time. I'll see you all there and I'll be sure to add pictures for everyone who wants to see what it was all about.

Again.

Check me out on social media where you can find me as the Brainy Biz. And thank you again to Amy Gallo for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You won't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.