285. Bringing Behavioral Economics to the Spanish-Speaking Community with Carlos Hoyos

Welcome to episode 285 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Carlos Hoyos, Senior Behavioral Design Consultant at B Way. Ready?

Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more or brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello.

Hello everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Carlos Hoyos, Senior Behavioral Design Consultant at B Way and co founder at kstudio. I'm so excited to introduce you to Carlos today. He and I have been connected for.

A while via LinkedIn.

He recommended Karina Montez and Maria Drago, who who were the first guests from Peru on the show, sharing about the.

Work they did with BE UEFA to.

Save Peru's environment one nudge at a time. As you'll hear me share about on the show today, I knew that Carlos.

Did work in the space, but I.

Wasn'T too familiar with what he was doing specifically. I'm going to chalk this up to.

The fact that I haven't gotten a.

Lot of updates in my feed from Carlos potentially because they're in Spanish and LinkedIn knows that. Much to my own sadness, I only speak one language, but I realized recently how much amazing content he's been sharing. When he won Content Person of the Year in the Habit Weekly awards, Habit Weekly said they got more than 5,000 votes and there were a lot of impressive people on the list like Katie Milkman, Peter Slattery, Pete Judo, Merle Van Denaker, and so many more. So when Carlos won, I was so excited for him and it was a great opportunity to reach out and and learn more about the work he's doing and I'm so excited to have him on to share about that and the importance of providing behavioral economics and behavioral science content to the Spanish speaking community and those who speak other languages around the world. Behavioral science is important everywhere and I hope people like Carlos can help to inspire others around the world to jump into the field and do great work and research that helps this to spread globally in a more representative way. Before we get into the conversation and Carlos shares more about himself and his work, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for everything, including related past episodes, links to articles and books, and so much more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 285. Now let's jump right in. Carlos Hoyos, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Hi, Melina. So really glad to be here.

Yay. I'm so glad you're here too. We, as I think is always the case and been chatting to where we could have been chatting all day long and said, okay, it's time to hit.

Record because we're losing information, we're losing material.

Right. All the fun that could translate here. That's where we say, you might hear me say the same thing again, but that's the, the way of the world, I suppose. So I'm so excited to have you here. I will have talked a little bit about our background together in your intro, but for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about who you are and the work that you do in behavioral science?

Yeah, sure. Well, like I said, my name is Carlos Oyos. I'm a Peruvian psychologist. I, I, let's say I finished my studies in psychology here, like when I was like 21 years old. And then I've just dedicated my whole career to basically market research at the beginning. So I've always had a lot of interest to understand why and how human behavior manifests itself in terms of consumption. And worked for many companies and consultancies. I've worked many years in insurance. So that was like a very interesting career, maybe like 10 years of doing that. And then suddenly I always felt this frustration that, like, being a psychologist didn't necessarily, I didn't feel that being a psychologist really meant any difference from what I did compared to other professionals that work in market research. You know, so until the day I found these marvelous books about behavioral science, because I always had this feeling that I am, I know things, but I don't know how to apply them in terms of human behavior. And suddenly I read a couple of books like Dan Ariely's Predictably Irrational, Richard Taylor's Nudge. There's another book from UK Cho called Actionable Gamification, who also talks about motivational models. And suddenly being exposed to so much research and so much, so many frameworks and so much information that kind of organized all the information I think I had from my upbringing as a psychologist really, like, sparked a huge interest in me in terms of trying to find a way to apply all this information to what I did in that moment that was working for insurance. So that's like that was like four or five years ago. And from that moment until now, I've just dedicated my whole career to just developing my knowledge in terms of behavioral science, behavioral design and specifically to find ways to apply it in business specifically and other, you know, other areas. So yeah, now I worked. I work in, in a consultancy company, one of the biggest consultancy companies in Hispanic America called B Way. It's a Spanish company, but we work like for many countries. We're like more than 50 consultants from all around the world. Hispanic world, let's say. And learning so much. Learning so much. I'm really happy because in this part of the world behavioral science is still growing. So there are not those many companies like there are in English speaking countries. So I'm really grateful that I have the opportunity to actually dedicate 100% of my time to behavioral science.

Yeah, it's the best thing to dedicate.

All of our time to, I think. Right. It's the understanding people and all the things. And so I love all of that. And of course, so you have been at least mentioned on the show before because you suggested that I have. So Karina Montez and Mario Drago came on, we talked about their work at BE UEFA and what they're doing. And so that was a really great conversation which will of course be linked in the show notes. And it just wasn't, I guess, the right time for, for us.

And then here we are and we.

Had this amazing catalyst of you, which I know that maybe you're gonna like kill me through the video here as I brag on you for a bit that you were named content Person of the Year by Habit Weekly, which is amazing. And that's not just, you know, even if it was just Sam going in and picking and saying, hey, like, you're really cool, you're the content person of the Year. That's still worth winning. But they said they had over 5000 votes cast this year by their readers. And you were selected among some pretty notably amazing people. But I mean, the list had. There were like.

Yeah, I'm still surprised.

20 people, you know, that were as the finalists for those, for those nominations. And you won. And I'm so excited to talk to you about it. So congratulations for one.

Well, thank you so much. I'm actually now sweating because of the nerve. I'm so nervous about this because, I mean, I still, like I said before, I still can't believe it because I'm really grateful, obviously. And at some point I was like, I'm sure Sam had something to do with this because I mean like, I don't even know how many people actually like knew what we were doing here in Latin America specifically like what maybe I was doing. So. And like you said like competing with many names like yourself and it was like for me was so, so overwhelming the fact to be on, on that list. But, but yeah, I'm really grateful. I do know it was a really, really like maybe I won by some votes. It was like a really like short difference. I'm sure that I remember Sam mentioning that. So, so yeah, I'm really grateful. Still trying to, I don't know, believe it, but I'm really happy and, and not only not just because of, you know, you know what it is to actually produce content and share information. You do it on your extra hours that you don't necessarily have. But I'm more, what makes me even more happy is that it gives us the opportunity to Latin Americans to be somewhere, you know, because when I watch, you know, Nudge Talk, that's for me one of the main moments I want to see how people share knowledge about behavioral science. There's never a Spanish speaking presenter, you know, there's never someone from Hispanic America presenting results and stuff like that. So that's why I was always also grateful that you gave us the opportunity to talk about the UEFA with Mario and Karina. So because that was for us like a very cool opportunity to, to show that hey, here in Peru and Latin America we're doing stuff. So, so like really thank you for giving us this, this space. It's really important for us because you, you know, you have in Spanish speaking countries, everyone's talking about these, you know, the lack of information from, you know, applying behavioral science to other parts of the world. But my question is like, okay, yeah, but what are you doing about it? You know, like not only in terms of papers but you know, there are a lot of professionals and you could say like from here there are many professionals, very good ones that are doing a lot of work and I can talk a little bit later about this, but there are many companies that are investing now in behavioral science in Latin America. So I'm really grateful that that award gave us the opportunity to show that there are also people from this part that are doing some software.

Yeah, absolutely. And like I had said to you after that came out where it was like, I know you, We've talked over LinkedIn for years now and like I said, you made a connection and a suggestion and we, we, we've talked, I see your name and I Go, oh, it's Carlos, right? And then when you won, or actually it was when your name was on the list of nominees, I started to, to look on the list of the finalists, you know, and seen people that I was like, I know Carlos, but I don't really realize what you're doing. And like we said, as I think because your content is in Spanish, it doesn't come to me. So I, I, I didn't get to see all of what you were doing. And so when I asked you to come on the show, it's even with like, I actually don't really know all of what you're doing, but it has to be amazing because you won this thing and so we should talk about it. And so with that I guess is when did you start really actively sharing, you know, going out and like you said you have a YouTube channel and you're sharing other information. So can you share a little bit about that journey? So you already talked about, you know, you have your background in psychology and then you found behavioral science and you know, seeing what was out there. And then when did you decide, like you said, to go do something about it when you saw that there wasn't anyone else creating content?

I think it was really early on when I discovered behavioral science because the challenge was that in, I would say like back in 2017, maybe 18 in Peru and in general Latin America, behavioral science and behavioral design was not something you heard about, like not at all. Behavioral economics, maybe someone took a class or a master and they talk about it, but it wasn't just out there, you know, so I was so in love with what I was finding out in these books and I was seeing that, that it was, was a thing in Spanish in English speaking countries that I, you know, I just, I just had this, I don't know how to call it, this drive to actually like say if no one's, I'm not going to wait around for someone to give me the opportunity. I have to clearly I have to build it for myself. Because the other thing was I had no idea how to apply this. You know, I was really scared. I had like no experience at all. So, you know, I just, I just like doing stuff. And I just started with one post on LinkedIn and I got some, you know, like my mom and my dad maybe gave me a, like and, and, and then, you know, suddenly more people were interested in what I was trying to share. And to be honest, much of my content, I mean I do, I do produce my own content. I have, you know, I Do interviews. I do like video essays or stuff like that. But most of my content is just sharing what other good professionals are doing. So I see myself as a curator in some way that I try to see. Like, okay, this article is very interesting and I give my opinion. Normally my posts always have my own opinion about what's. What I'm. I'm sharing. And suddenly more and more people, like, I didn't know just started following me and they started inviting me to conferences and talk about behavioral science. How does this apply? And you know, the funny thing is that at the beginning I was, you know, talking like an expert and I didn't really have that much experience in terms of. Of hours of applying it. And that's when I really got scared because, you know, everyone was relating me to behavioral science, but I wasn't really applying that much. I was just, you know, sharing what. What I learned through books and everything. And that's when I had. I kind of had the opportunity in Remax Seguros Insurance, the company I worked on that they gave me opportunity to build our own behavioral design team. And that's when I started to have the experience applying it. And that just, you know, it's like a snowball, just got bigger and bigger. And I always, like, share stuff, but to be honest, I don't really have a strategy. I just like to have fun. I just share information because I like it. I really enjoy it. I have my YouTube channel just because I enjoy feeling, you know, it's like for me, like playing that I am on my own TV show, you know, like I have my own talk show. So. So it's. It's just. It just was fun, you know, and I just enjoy it. I don't do anything I don't want to do, really. And I don't know, just people connect, I think. Just people love about to talk about human behavior. It's so fascinating. You know, you don't even have to be a psychologist or social scientists to be interested in human behavior. So I think that it really connects to people. And I don't know, it just. Years went by and I just share. There's so much information to share. I've actually shared much of your information on your content, your interviews, the book itself, you know, so there's so much out there that people have to know or want to know. So it wasn't really that difficult. It's just a matter of discipline and, you know, just keep doing it. I share like every week. And yeah, that's been the journey. Like just having Fun and sharing things you love.

Yeah, definitely. And like you had said when we were talking before, so I don't think you said this here. That's part of the problem of the pre chat is then we forget like, what did we talk about then versus here? But I know we had a conversation about that. You were debating and trying to decide if you should create your content in English or in Spanish. Can you talk a little bit about that choice?

Yeah, I mean, I always, always think about it. For example, when I, when I put my YouTube videos out there, for example, I have one of the latest videos I did was about the Argentinian victory in the World cup and trying to explain how and why people, at least in Latin America, actually lived the match as if it was our match using social identity theory. And it had so many reactions like I had. No, was not used to that many reactions. I even had like haters in the comments. I'm not used to haters in the comments. So it was like crazy. And I was thinking like, should I do this also in English? But the thing is that there is so much information out there in English that I would just be one more. I just think there's so much of that out there and there's so little in Spanish. And that's when I decided I'm just going to keep this in Spanish because even though Latin American countries learn English as a second language, it's not the same when you read or you listen to this information in your own language. So I'm trying to stick to my people right now, like I said before the program, because I do think we need that. We need more people like me, like, and other friends I have that also do this to try to spread the word in our own language that is easier, more friendly. And that can show that behavioral science is not something that only Americans and Europeans know how to do, you know. So, yeah, that's. I'm always thinking maybe some stuff put in English. But again, there's so much to say in Spanish that I'm just trying to stick to that right now.

Yeah, well, it's. It's one of those things too when you look at, I think the kind of herding brain right to where we look and see. But like everybody's talking about it in English, so I have, I should be there because that's where the people are that care about it. But like you said, the flip of that is like, yeah, everyone is talking about it in English. So. And it's not that people that don't speak, speak English. Don't care about this. That's a ridiculous thing. They just don't have options yet. Right. And even, you know, for myself, and I know I have listeners and people that reach out all the time and say, you know, when's your book going to be in Spanish? When's your book going to be in German? When's the book going to be in French? Or now the books, you know, when are they going to be translated? And all I can do is say, you know, like, I'm reaching out to my publisher. I do what I can, you know, but there are agreements and things that you wait for. And so it's just hard to get done sometimes. Right? It's as much as it would be great to just say like, ta da, it's in Spanish, I would love that. But it's hard to do. And as I was saying to you before as well is I really wish that I spoke all the languages and I do not. And so I can't, you know, translate stuff all that well. And so that. But for you, you know, taking that leap and being really the first one or one of the first people to really sharing in Spanish makes it so other people feel comfortable to do that. And then you're one of the people that you know, you know, as an authority that you can go look to. And that's why you, I would say that's why you won Content Person of the Year, right? Because you stand out from. And I'm sure, and you know, content is great and all those things, but daring to do the thing that no one else has done yet is what helps people to stand out. And so, you know, bravo. Because going against that hurting instinct is really, really hard.

No, I really thank you for, for saying this because again, it wasn't an easy decision because obviously there's also ego involved, right? Because you also want to be there. You want to be with the big names, with the big boys, you know, like, you want everyone also to recognize what you do and what you're saying. So, yeah, I mean, again, I really thank you because it's sacrificing some of the spot that obviously everyone enjoys. But again, for me, it's like, for example, that what you talk about your book. One of the things I've done in my past publications was talk about your book, but in Spanish, like saying, okay, so Melina is talking about this with the Spanish terms because not everyone knows English the same way. Some English words are difficult to pronounce or even to understand. So when you translate it, it's really friendlier for who's listening. So I really thank you for those comments because it's something that I really enjoy doing even though it's a tough decision sometimes.

Yeah. Well, I am honored that you have chosen to include any of the stuff from my books or podcast in the that which gets translated from you onto others. So thank you.

It's a great book.

Thank you.

I love your book. I mean, I'm waiting for a new one obviously at some point, but yeah, I mean it's. I mean I just love, I just love how you and I also like for example Jennifer Kleinhans, you know, because I feel like it's kind of the same vibe in terms of bringing behavioral science to the day to day decision making right to business to day, to like real life, real earth problems that companies face and people who are doing their own startups face. So I really enjoy your book. So I really want to congratulate you and really hope that we can see much more of your information. It's a really good production.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Well, I am so delighted to hear that. And yes, Jennifer Kleinhens is awesome. I'll share her episode in the show notes as well for everyone loved her conversation. And of course she's mentioned in the first book too, so we have that there.

So speaking of practical application with real.

Business work, can you share a little bit? I know you said one of your clients has said that you're able to share some of the cool stuff that you're doing with bank in Latin America. Can you share about it?

Yeah, sure. And first just say a quick shout out and thank you to Julian Rincon who's, who's our client who gave us the okay to share some of the secrets that we're working on. Because one of the companies we work for in b way is, I don't know if in English, I mean the company is in America for example, but I'm not sure how many other countries is there is that Bebe Ubea. It's in Spanish. Bbva. Sorry, it's really difficult for me to translate it in English. I don't know. Like BBVA is not easier to Bebe Ubea in Spanish is much easier. But so yeah, he's. They're one of our major clients and we've done so much work last year and years before, but specifically last year and to be honest, like BBVA is, I would say from what I've, I've gathered information and I've researched, I would say that is if it's not the biggest, it is one of the biggest companies that supply in behavioral science in a, in a, in a scale way, you know, because they have behavioral science teams in different countries and in this case we work a lot with the Mexican team. They're doing a great job. They're the biggest team of behavioral science of the, of the company. And we've done so much, so many projects last year. And the interesting thing about this and what this company is doing is that they actually have had the opportunity to merge behavioral science practice into day to day business decision making. You know, because in other companies that are starting to do it, they're doing a very good job, but they're still struggling to get buy in from other parts of the, of the business. Right. So you have like behavioral scientists or behavioral designers trying to propose ideas or something we could do and you have to, you know, sail through this corporate ladder and try to get buy in from management, stuff like that. But in bbba they already bought it from the big decision makers so it's much easier to apply. What is that we do and we actually have, I mean like the Mexican team, at least they're more like 30 consultants, 30 behavioral scientists working day to day in different experiments. So for example. Right. So just to give you one of the examples I wanted to share with you, with you and your audience is like something so simple as working with credit cards. So they're a bank. BBA is one of the biggest banks in Latin America and we work in many parts of the business. But for example, in credit cards we had this project where there was this challenge in terms of, okay, so you want to place more credit cards, for example, you know, have people have more access to credit, to financial opportunities through that credit. And it was funny because many people weren't really interested in applying for these credit cards, these credit cards because of all the, let's say, lack of trust in the banking system that I know that is not just a Latin American problem. Right. So many people had this idea that once you acquire that credit card, that's credit card, you know, you're not going to be able to get rid of it if you don't want it anymore at some point, you know. So we had this idea because they, the team did all this research and you know, we always do these diagnostics of what's going on where we identify this, you know, this aversion to the idea that if you acquire this credit card you're going to be stuck to it. So it's kind of A risky decision, right? So should I acquire, should I not acquire? So many, many of the potential consumers didn't want to acquire and that we proposed the idea to make, to. To make it very easy for them that if they acquired a credit card, they could, they could leave the credit card, you know, cancel it anytime. And in a very simple process, you know, like reducing the friction cost of the process, to actually cancel your credit card. That in Latin America and some companies, it's not that easy. And obviously this was a very interesting project because at the beginning, the business was not very sure of that decision because your business intuition was saying, like, wait, I mean, I'm not going to offer a credit card that's easy to cancel at any time. That's not the idea. Why should I offer a product that it's easy for people just to cancel in any moment? But at the end, they really bought the idea. They gave us a chance. And it was really interesting because I actually have the results here. Because we did this communication, this launch of the new credit card promotion and stuff like that. When we said it's easy to buy out if you don't like it, just take the credit card if you don't like it. It's really simple, really easy to cancel. You don't have to stick to it, there's no strings attached, like being really clear, very transparent, you know, using all those, all those communication principles and stuff like that. And we always do AB testing. That is something very important for the bank. We do it all the time. Like, experimentation is a must in most of our projects. And you know, what's the funny thing is like, we actually did the AB testing and our design gave us an uplift, you know, of 0.70% of acquisition. You know, and the funny thing is that like, 0.70% doesn't sound like anything. If you go to a board meeting and you say, yeah, my idea just gave you 0.70% of an uplift, people are going to say, yeah, that doesn't matter. But when you look at it in terms of money, because of the scale, we're talking about more than 3 million euros, you know, of business intake for like in an annual intake. Just because that's how we. That's what having a credit card could mean to the business. You know, of someone who normally doesn't have. Because of different business opportunities. So it's very interesting because even though you have like a very little impact in terms of percentage of the uplift, that could mean a lot of money for the company. And the question here is like, what are your options? Like, do it, what I said, that could give you 3 million more dollars this year or do it the same way you've always done and you're not going to get that money. So it's an easy decision, right? So, so stuff like that. So that's just one example of one of the interventions we did. And we did that. We do these interventions in a span of time of like, let's say like, I don't know, like a month maybe or a little bit more than a month. So it's not that it doesn't take that much, you know, really fast decision, decisions that you can make as a business and things like that we've done in the past year. Like in 2022, we did more than 130 experiments in different areas of the business. And that actually represented an extra income of more than, of around like 45 million euros in the year. So it's like a very interesting business case for anyone who's thinking about, okay, should I apply behavioral science or not? Because the investment is so little, like what the bank invested in having a behavioral science team. It's a fragment of that later value that you can generate just by thinking differently and saying, hey, why don't we just, instead of using this copy or instead of using this element in my communication, just change it. Because I'm thinking like these elements of psychology and whatever, they can help give you some, a little bit like 0.70% of an uplift. And if you do that in many of your business decisions and in scale and you can make a lot of money. And again, the idea here, I'm talking about money because I know that's what business wants. But if you want to talk, you want to think about what in terms of, of health, financial health, we work in many projects all related to helping people to save more money and helping people to be more financially independent and stuff like that. So it's not only a matter of money, but I always put it in the table because that's what business always wants to look at. But my point here is that there are so many things, so many little things where behavioral science can help and that can, that can make a very big impact in business everywhere, you know, and I'm just talking about banking, you know, in just one year. So yeah, that's, that's, that's one of the experiences I was really interested in sharing. Unfortunately, I can't share anything else from the business. We have many more. For me, it's awesome. Because you have access to a document where I have all the experiments we've done and there's so much insight in human behavior, what works, what doesn't work. But it's really cool to have a company that invests and really believes that behavioral science can do something for the business. And we're just trying to accelerate the decision of, of other companies to actually do the same thing.

Yeah, absolutely. And I love, like you said, when there's a real applied case that we're able to share and those numbers that you're sharing too. I know, I get, I have people ask me all the time from all over the world, you know, and it's, it's funny where, you know, it's like, oh, in name country. Like, we don't have really behavioral economics in our businesses yet. Like, nobody's doing behavioral science here. It's not like in the US I can tell you this because I get calls from people in the US all the time too. There are a lot of companies that are not doing it here either. Right. So there's still, there's still a lot of room there. And as people are just saying, like behavioral economics, what's that? Like, that's still a case here in the States and in the UK and everywhere else. So there's plenty of room and opportunity here. And part of the issue in industry is people don't share what they're doing. So then it doesn't, you don't get to see it as much. And so we don't know that what is happening there to help others to see. You really need to get on this train because, like, it's already gone. Right. We're making, making moves there. So, you know, being able to have that is really important. And so having those numbers and where people say, you know, well, how could I make a case? How can I even convince. And I was just talking with one of my clients actually about this today, where when we're working on our own stuff, stuff, we get really myopic in what we think matters and what people are going to care about. And you really focus on details that you think should matter to people and then they don't. And so this idea of asking, well.

Like, how can I get, you know.

Just, I don't know, can I even.

Get $500 to run an experiment?

Like, oh, it's. How am I even gonna ask? I don't even know how to do this thing. You say, like, hey, let's take a step back, let's reframe this a little bit. Right. And you have this example of, of course, BBV. BBVA has invested more than $500 in what they are doing. But to show the scale of it, you know, like you said, 45 million euros that they know that they got lift from 130 experiments that they ran last year that I'm guessing are in projects and things they were going to do anyway. For the most part.

Exactly.

We're looking at an AB test on this mailer. We're looking at an AB test on the way that we're going to be creating this website. Like, let's look at how we can adapt this. Like you said, there's a little bit of nuance in making it so a credit card is easy to cancel. Maybe there's some product you have to create and do stuff for. But still didn't. I'm guessing it wasn't $3 million worth of shift to get that lift. Right? Definitely not. So it's definitely. Most of your juice will be worth the squeeze and it'll definitely make up for the flip when it's not so totally, totally worth it. And I love having that example for people to be able to see something they can do. I was also reminded when you of when you were talking of as another banking example, when Richard Chataway was on the show and he was talking about in a call center, also for a bank, and that they were looking to reduce call time, which is like every call center is looking to do that. And what they ended up recommending was to tell people to take their time when they were calling in and having to remember a passcode, which is very counterintuitive because we think like, no, we want to reduce call times. We shouldn't tell people to take their time. But the problem was if you were saying, hey, you know, if you get this wrong, there's nothing I can do to help you and you're going to have to wait five or six days before you can do anything. So, you know, good luck. The stress on the brain when you're trying to. Like he was saying in this, it was a passcode. They needed to get, you know, a check for a mortgage or something. And if they got it wrong, they might lose the house they're trying to buy. And all this stress that when they told people that and then they got it wrong, there's all this extra work down the line to fix the problem, expense for the bank, time for the customer. It's really bad experience. And by telling people like, you know, just take your time, no worries. I'm here for you.

Right.

Then they were able to get it right more often and it was just so much better for everyone. And overall call time went down.

Right.

Because you have less people calling back and doing that. So just looking at the bigger picture, understanding behavior and those stressors. And like you said, the. It's not that everyone's going to go and be canceling cards every five minutes because canceling a card is no good and we understand status quo bias and you just need to get them in. Right. We just need to have that opportunity to have the card. And that particular hurdle is one that can help, you know, get that 0.70% lift.

Yeah. And the thing here is that it's not only a matter of are you using behavioral principles to design a solution just by experimenting or having the experimenting mindset in a company. There's so much that you can learn from that because you're now actually making decisions with data, you know, with, with actual information and not something you, you, you have. So we have, we have one of the best professionals in, in our business in, in. He's called, his, his name is Pablo Bonino. He's like a very good experimenter and he has this saying in Spanish, it's, it goes like dato matarelato. You know, a very rough and awful translation would be like, data kills your talk. You know, like. Because what it's trying to say is that you can say many things. You have, you can have many opinions of if this should work or not work. And you can argue that you're using all the theory that you want in your opinion, but the data is going to kill your opinion because maybe it's not going to work. So experimenting, doing an A B testing on every single decision you want to make, even though it looks like you're going to lose time experimenting, you're always going to learn, you're always going to have data to make a better decision for now and for the future. Because what, what we do with the bank is that many times later on other areas or other parts of the business have questions, say they want to do maybe the same thing you just did, and they can go to your experiment and say, hey, but a couple of months ago they did this and this happened. So we have data that kind of gives us a little bit more of information about human behavior before making a decision. So it's not only a matter of, oh, cool, I made an uplift now. Now I have evidence data that this worked in this situation. Maybe this could help me for future decisions. So you're, it's actually an investment in understanding your, the behavior of your company that goes beyond doing market, traditional market research. You know, doing your focus groups and your research. No, now, now every single experiment is going to be like an evidence you're going to always carry for yourself.

Yeah.

The quote that came to mind for me that is sort of related but not the same. But one of my favorite data and like a death by data sort of thing is that if you torture the data long enough it will confess to anything.

I like that one. I like. That is so true. That is so true.

Definitely. Yeah. Well, on that note, and of course we could continue to talk forever and ever, but can you share a little bit? There's obviously lots of content you've got out there for people to go and find and you know, there are those great things, you know, LinkedIn has a translate button so I can sort of see what's up there when you're sharing info. And I'm sure you, like you said YouTube. So what's the best place for people to go learn more about you and the work that you do and for everyone, hopefully that is in Latin America. I know we have lots and lots of local listeners in Spanish speaking countries that's looking to connect with you, learn more, you know, what's their best path to do so?

Well, definitely in my case like to learn about myself. It's about, it's LinkedIn that is my main platform and I also have my YouTube channel that, what I do in the YouTube channel is called Behavioral Pills. Ironically it's in English but I just love the, love the name. It's, it's called behavioral pills on YouTube. What I do in the, in the YouTube channel is basically interview Latin American practitioners or Hispanic speaking practitioners and we, we take on different topics like maybe you do or the people doing on your podcasts. So I try to give some spotlight to their jobs and what they're doing. And I also share some, I'm starting to share some, some of these like micro essays where I try to explain some of the things I see around with a behavioral perspective. And in LinkedIn what I try to do is always share. Normally I share material like something that I find in the web that could be helpful in terms of knowledge, you know, like a report or whatever I found interesting that could help you but also like tools or you know, platforms that could be helpful in any way. So I would say that my target audience would be people that are not experts necessarily in behavioral science because for expertise you can have Many other ways to acquire information, Habit weekly itself with Sam and everything he shares. But for me it's more like if you're not sure about what it is, if you're not sure how to implement it. Many of the content I share is more like for regular, let's say people that want to apply some of the knowledge or conclusions we have about behavior to their day to day activities and if they want to understand a little bit further of what behavioral science or what behavioral design is, I sometimes also redirect them to my website. That's also behavioralpills.com where I have these behavioral pills that are basically like little, it's like an elearning. So it's basically like little one hour sessions where I explain things that I consider like really basic for a behavioral scientist to know. Like so for example, I have a pill on comb model, you know, I have a pill on the octalysis framework that I use so much. I have a pill on the east framework, you know, and those little frameworks that are just everywhere, I try to condense them and put them in a one hour explanation session and people can access them through, through the website. Right. So that's basically what I'm trying to do. My, my, my strategy, let's say right now is to try to be that person that's in the, let's say like behavioral science is a big, you know, building. I like to be the person who's in the front door welcoming people, you know, like trying to say hey, like yeah, like come here, we're having fun, we're doing many things. And then when someone is already inside, I can, you know, send them to more experienced and people that, that love this, this or do so much about this, this, this discipline. Right.

I love the analogy there and that sounds like a lot of fun. I think it's great. And we'll of course have links to behavioral pills, both the website and YouTube and your LinkedIn in the show notes and just you know, thank you again for joining me on the show and congratulations on being content person of the year.

No, thank you so much for having me. This is like a dream come true. I've been a huge fan of the show, I followed so many episodes. So thank you for giving us from this part of the world a spotlight to talk about what we're doing. And yeah, just again just mention that there is so much information, so much experience we're gaining in Latin and Hispanic America that more than happy to share with anyone who's interested, who wants to connect or Whatever. So thank you so much, Melina, because. Because this is very important for us.

Awesome.

Yeah. Happy to do anything I can to support behavioral science all around the world. So thanks again and we'll definitely talk again soon.

Awesome.

Thank you again to Carlos Hoyos for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I always love hearing a story where someone did something that felt scary or or like they were going against the norm and maybe even against what their own instincts were telling them to do to amazing results. Carlos did something that no one else.

Was doing or very few people. As I've shared through the episode, I don't see a lot of content out.

There because it's in another language so it doesn't get placed in my feeds. And he's finding, we all are, that there are a lot of people out there hungry to learn more about behavioral science. It, of course, isn't just limited to the English or Spanish speaking communities. There are so many opportunities out there and I know that there are great content creators and curators of knowledge that are helping to lead the change in their native languages and countries.

I've been brought in to speak to.

Some groups around the world, limited of course to those who can speak English. But I've spoken to groups and interested leaders in Greece, Germany, Latvia, Croatia, South Africa, Peru and other areas across Latin America. And I know my podcast is downloaded in more than 170 countries. Imagine if they had content in languages that could reach others who don't speak English. There are so many people out there waiting to learn and you could be the one to share it with them. Don't be scared of being first. There are lots of people like you who've done this in their own way or their own language, like Carlos. Or even for me, with starting the brainy business almost five years ago, there wasn't anything like this yet in the world. So it was a bit scary to be the first and take that leap. But I'm so glad I did. If you want support or have questions or want to share your idea or how this conversation and Carlos's work has inspired you, please do let us know. On social media, you can find me as the brainy bizarre pretty much everywhere. And as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn, I'm.

Linking to those in the show notes.

As well as ways to get in.

Touch with Carlos and follow him on.

YouTube and LinkedIn, as well as links to related books and past episodes in.

The Show Notes which can be found within the app.

You're listening to and at the brainy business.com285 and thank you again to Carlos Hoyos for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast.

It's going to be a lot of fun.

You won't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness. Com.