293. How Brands like Nike and Apple Master Multi-Narrative Storytelling, with Dr. Troy Campbell

Welcome to episode 293 of the Brainy Business Understanding the psychology of why people Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to have Dr. Troy Campbell back on the show to talk about multi narrative storytelling.

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Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello.

Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Dr. Troy Campbell, Chief scientist at on your Feet who has previously worked with some of your favorite brands including Disney and Netflix, and he was also a professor at the University of Oregon. He's so fun and full of energy. I always love talking with him and having him on the show. This is actually his third time here. There aren't many people with that distinction. I think it might just be Kwame Christian and Marco Palma from the Texas.

A and M Human Behavior Lab, a.

Couple of my very favorite people. So Troy is in great and well deserved company. Earlier this year, Troy was on the show in a flip of the script episode where he interviewed me and went through one of his processes to dig in on my burnt popcorn approach to priming. That's showcased in my book what your.

Employees need and can't tell you. It is of course linked for you.

In the show notes if you want.

To check it out.

Today, Troy is back to talk about multi narrative storytelling and why it matters for business. Don't worry, he's going to tell you all about what that means as we get into the episode. And for everyone who hasn't yet met him, he's going to share a little more on his background as well. Really quickly before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for everything, including related past episodes, links to articles and books, and so much more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 293.

Now let's jump right in. Dr.

Troy Campbell, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Awesome. Hi Melina. Let's do this. I think this will be probably number three when you release this.

I think you're right. That's the plan that we're going to be having this year and had the joy of connecting multiple times just this week that we've actually talked, you and I. I would say email quite A bit. So, I mean, not a ridiculous amount or anything, but we do an appropriate.

And effective amount for our careers and friendship.

Yeah. But we definitely keep in touch. But we actually got to talk now three times this week, which is amazing. So, anyway, so, Troy, even though I clearly know you super duper well, for everyone who is here and this is their first time learning about you and who you are, can you share a little bit about your background and the work that you do?

Yeah. So my name is Troy Campbell, and I approach things with a scientific mind and artistic heart. And so I put science and art in ways that hopefully reveal new insights and allow new actions. So I used to be a Disney Imagineer, where we brought in the science of emotion with the art of experiential design to create new things in the parks and other entertainment experiences. I worked in Netflix Consumer Insights, where we brought in the science of choice with sort of the art of aesthetic designs to encourage them to make some of the changes and thoughts, like the fact that they use two different colors of black now on the home screen to just indicate differential things. Why hierarchical lists, like top 10 lists, can be very useful. There's some negative things about that, but definitely can be useful and importance cues. And also as an academic researcher where I did a lot of research where I would take really, really important findings that I thought didn't have, like, as really the study that really made them matter to the world. And. And then I would do that study. And so one of the projects I did there was solution aversion, which is the idea that just takes motivated reasoning, that we deny things sometimes, but the reason we're denying them is not because they're a scary problem or not just because they're a scary problem, but because of the solution. So solution aversion. I used to be a marketing professor, and now I am the chief scientist at the creative firm. On your feet.

So many amazing things, which, of course, I already knew. I feel like I have to follow up on the different shades of black I'm intrigued by. I need to know more. Tell me more about the shades of black.

Okay, so let's talk about Netflix. So Netflix pre2018 or something like that was really a platform that was based upon what it originally was. Is there's a bunch of DVDs on our website. You're familiar with most of these movies. Oh, my gosh. Which one do you want to watch now versus Then it became this streaming thing where all of a sudden on the platform, it was a bunch of unfamiliar new things. And you were making that decision in the moment. And the architecture that worked really, really well, which was more or less just a boring Library to get DVDs for yourself to watch in a day or two was not good for. It's a 10pm at night. Should I watch this new thing? Will it make me feel the emotion that I want to feel right now? And maybe on Friday, that's excitement, maybe on Tuesday night, that's relaxing. And so what they needed to do is they needed to change that architecture and they needed to put more information and give a little bit more consumer guidance on the website. And one of the ways they did that is they created something, the top 10 list. And the top 10 list is an aesthetically differentiated list that is using like two different colors of blacks. So like, there's the. To make the numbers stand out versus other places. And so they're not using like it's. The color scheme that they use on the homepage is still very simple. It's white, red and black. They're not like highlighting things in yellow and stuff like that. And that's why one of the reasons it's such a clean, wonderful experience. But they still need to sort of indicate that certain things are more important. And there's so many changes that have been done. Some are more subtle about using more, better language that is more distinct. When I was working there, I put up the description of a family friendly sci fi show and black mirror. And if you looked at them side by side and didn't know the shows, you'd be like, these are the same thing. But probably one of my favorite things that they changed is no longer do they do really traditional movie trailers. It just gives you a clip or a very different type of trailer that just says, here's the show, here's the tone, here's the plot. Is this something you want right now? If yes, click. Click on this right. Versus these movie trailers that were. They were so they were like in a world where blah, like it's trying to get you hyped for something, but you're like, it's 10, it's 10 o' clock on a Tuesday. I want something that I want to watch. And since Netflix wants you to watch their originals, usually versus the things that you're familiar with, like the Office that they had for a while, they're like, we really need to be able to communicate that these things matter. And how do you communicate these things matter? Better descriptions, clips that make the show actually understandable to you in its tone, in its content, in Its length and also these sort of importance cues where they use different shades of, of colors on the Netflix home screen.

Hmm, Interesting. I always wonder in the top 10, you know, like, I found it very interesting that Netflix is using the top 10 of shows, you know, in the US today or whatever, to which I'm like. But like top 10, you know, how did I don't know, like super random thing that I haven't seen or thought about in 20 years become number eight in the US today? Like you were promoting it, right? Like you had to. Someone decided that this needed to be important and promoted to people to get enough people to watch it, to have it, to be number eight when it's so obscure and random and something that's like old versus a brand new show, you know, I always think that's so interesting. But a good leveraging of social proof to bring old stuff up to the front of the line again.

Yeah, and it's so useful that, you know, one of the other things about sort of the design of Netflix is that when it was first made, the idea was everybody's Netflix homepage, or at least it was starting is different. Right. There is no such thing as a real homepage. But then as time went on, as Netflix expanded, they needed to create these social cohesion moments. And if everybody is watching a show that came out 15 years ago, that is actually quite useful. Right. Because now everybody's doing it. Maybe bloggers are talking about it. It's creating chat that's good for Netflix and arguably it is good for the consumer because they are more a part of the social experience, or at least it's in line with their preferences.

Yeah, well, and that's like, I mean, we know from the social proof aspect of things, especially when we're entering into something that we're unsure, which is a lot of what you have in Netflix territory, a show I've never heard of, a group I'm not familiar with, or I don't know if I'm going to like this. Is it worth me investing my time? You have paradox of choice issue. But if you're able to see that people like me like this, then, you know, it's easier to go ahead and give it a try and jump in versus just scrolling endlessly and saying, okay, maybe not, I'll just go to bed or I'll just play Candy Crush, whatever.

Yeah. And it also is sort of like water cooler chat kind of things. So if I watch, even if I just watched the first episode and what I did, I watched the first episode of Wednesday I may finish the show. I don't feel like the show is for me as much, but we'll see. But now I understand in that first episode enough and have enough context that when everybody on the Internet is talking about it, I feel a part of that conversation. And Netflix wants to be that conversation. And so by having that top 10 list and you watching that, you aren't always watching things just because you expect to enjoy them. There are other benefits that you get, and one of those is being a part of social conversation. And Netflix is sort of in some ways Goldilocksing that. Well, of course everything is imperfect on these streaming services.

But yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's really interesting. Thank you for taking that little sidestep with me here. Of course, when we, when we get into what you're here to actually talk about today, which is the multi narrative storytelling, I think, you know, movies are clearly a great space to start with that. So I think, you know, thinking a little bit about stories and Netflix is a good path as we get into multi narrative storytelling and how it can be used by brands and, you know, really everyone in general. But first, how about you define what is it?

Yeah, so this is definitely going to be a deeply defined episode. So we'll say some stuff about it and then we'll slowly reveal additional elements of it. But a multi narrative storytelling is a term that I give to a variety of practices that we see businesses have done for a very long time and that when I'm working with companies like Nike who have done them and like Blizzard and other places to getting them to use it, and here it is, multinarrative storytelling is telling a core story or an idea, maybe that is just do it or epic entertainment or magical things Disney or your own personal brand like scientific mind, artistic heart. And you're telling that core story through multiple narratives that are often complementary. And the collection of those stories allows you to tell your core idea, your core story better than any single anecdote most likely would. And the sort of wonderful thing of this is that everybody is often there stuck thinking, what is the one story I need to choose and tell? And usually the answer is don't choose one story. Tell your story through multi narratives.

We're going to get to the how does one do this? Like, how do I pick my story? And whatever, you know, we'll get to that, I believe. But can you share a little bit of the examples? You mentioned Nike. So how did this work? I believe this is a project you worked on with Nike Yeah, So I.

Can'T talk about a lot of the NDA stuff that I've done with them. But let's talk about Nike and Apple and let's talk about some of the, like, the biggest, most famous ads. So no matter who you are, you're familiar, you don't need to like, know the, the newest ads on the sneakers app. You, you. They just do it and think different, right? If there are some of the most famous slogans of all time, they're some of the most famous ad campaigns of all time. And they were across time, obviously a multi narrative, because they've been telling many stories around this one thing, bringing more and additional meanings to that single concept. But also when they started, especially with Think different, it started literally as a multi narrative, right? So the very first Think different advertisement is the idea of it being for the misfits, the rebels, the ones that don't fit in, the ones who are crazy enough to believe they can change the world will. And that is the idea of Think Different. And in the narration they're saying people who think different are these misfits, these rebels, these people believe those are already sort of giving a little bit of multi narrative. But the amazing trick that they used, and people have said maybe there was some ethics issue of this, but effective is they just put up pictures of people like Einstein and Muhammad Ali and other people who were social changers and intellectuals and business persons and you know, you can disagree with them, but they changed things and they thought different. And it is incredibly clear after this short, minute long advertisement with this monologue about misfits and this montage of different people across time. And then the slogan at the end, think different. What exactly Apple is all about. And it's telling their story, their Think different story through many, many different stories. And they were beginning with multi narrative storytelling from the moment they went out into the world with it.

Just to clarify some, because I know when we think about telling a story, it feels like I have to tell this big, long entire story and then I have to tell this long story and I have to tell this long story to get to where we're going with what you're saying there, where we can't necessarily copy what was done there because there's some concerns perhaps, but because of the mental associations and what we know, I know enough about Einstein that I see the story and you're talking about thoughtfulness or whatever with that. I know what you mean. I'm learning something about you because you put the Einstein picture up with the words that you're saying. And it's the, that story is like it's layering in on those brain associations informing what I'm trying to tell you based on something somebody already knows, but doesn't necessarily have to be a really long in depth story underneath.

Not definitely, not always. So the core idea of multi narrative storytelling is simply we've got a core idea that we want to get across. You know, what are we all about? That's your story, right? Right. Luke is a Jedi who wants to save the world or the galaxy. That's his story. I am a person with a scientific mind and artistic heart who wants to put that together to create new and interesting things to help people learn and create. Right. You are a person with your phrase, be right, be thoughtful, be, be creative, be better leader. Right. It's everything you're doing. You're the, you're the B woman. Right. I'm using behavioral economics to help everyone. And that is your, your core story. What you're trying to do. Right. Story is cause and effect. This is who I am. And I'm using, driven by that. That's my cause and I'm using it to affect the world. And then I'm going to surround that in stories. And sometimes you're telling original stories and sometimes in other situations you're sort of using established ideas. So when I'm talking about my own work for Netflix or Disney, in my own multi narrative, I am both telling original things that I've done, but I'm also using the associations that you already knew. And so that is one of the ways in which one of the super skills of a multi narrative storytelling in action doesn't always have to do it, but using existing other stories as associations to put inside of it. And so when people are already familiar with things, you can borrow some of that story, but that's not entirely essential to it. So for instance, maybe skipping ahead to so working with Owens Corning. So Owens Corning is a group of scientists and different type of people who make products to construct things. And one of their slogans and ideas is we make a material difference, which is a wonderful core phrase. So they make materials and those materials make a difference. That's their story. And what does that story mean? Well, they're using materials to do things with astronauts in space. They're doing things to make very, very sustainable buildings. They're making things to material difference. So your house has less noise. So the outside rain or your kid drumming on the inside doesn't. Doesn't the noise doesn't get in, the noise doesn't get out. And the collection of all those stories, really those collections of all those little narratives bring in it. And some of that is using associations, you know, that are like brands or other people's stories. Some of that is using original things. Some of it is sort of this in between. Right. We all know the story of the kid drumming or we can immediately get that idea. And it's just this wonderful way in which when you give the person that you're telling the center and you give them these understandable little snippets, these little narratives, the brain is just really good at creating a gestalt around that because you've given them that center core thesis which they can connect everything through. You're telling them what part of the story I want you to pay attention to. In each of the narratives I'm giving the material difference, the scientific mind, artistic heart, the thinking different, the just doing it spirit, the behavioral economics point part of it in all these ones we've just set up.

I love that. I was trying to. I'm a big fan of the. I don't know if it's a play on words per se, sort of, but that understanding, that depth. And I was trying to find, I think it was that mailchimp had something they were using at some point that I just went to see if I could find it on their website, which I'm not seeing it now, so it's not worth wasting time on. But that interesting sort of turn of phrase where there's the duality in what's being said and used there. Like you said with material difference. Right. So we make a material difference is a phrase that I'm familiar with. I know what that means. But when we're looking at using materials in a different way, then there's a different way that you're able to interpret that and it tells me something about you. And because you were able to do something unique and creative in the way that you presented that, I can tell that you also think in a more innovative way about presenting information. You think very deeply on things. There's a lot that comes through through in that one slogan choice.

Yeah, right. And I think in all of these examples, so we're talking about multi narrative storytelling as like this kind of core structure. But of course, you know, the. The bee woman here is just going to bring you insight which is, well, here's all these things that sort of also can be constructed inside of this. And maybe that is not inherent, like having that cute of a Center phrase is not inherent or necessary to multi narrative storytelling, but it makes it better the way you tell your multi narrative storytelling and the pacing of it and other things like that or the way you choose to show the imagery. So Mac chose to show all the. Apple chose to show all those old, you know, think different misfits in the same like kind of sepia gray scaled things even when they didn't need to because they were color and. Yeah. And so there's so much information leakage or implied or inferable things that can come on in this and I think it's just this amazing thing to realize is oh my God, look at how much information I can get across so quickly.

Yeah. I'm so currently, you know, so I'm just very all in on and I feel the next iteration of stuff that I'm so interested in right now is semiotics and metaphor and word choice and brain association like this like deeper level of behavioral science and behavioral economics that I'm, I'm super, super into. And I love how that layers in with the storytelling and brand narratives and all of what you're talking about right now with.

Yeah. Sidebar. It'd be really interesting to the next podcast you should do. You should do one. I'll interview you for this if you want. You do like BB and so it'd be like you've heard all these behavioral economics things for a while. You've listened to 250 episodes of Brainy Business. The world has seen a million TED talks. Now here's this other part of behavioral science that exists around metaphor or embodied cognition, if we're okay with that term. And here's how we can bring those insights and make the things that you have now mastered or are already doing a little bit even better.

Yeah, yeah. I'm. I'm very much looking at the, the layering in and to what. What depth. This is my new. And it's not a new focus. You know what I mean? It's definitely. It's just a, it's a layering in and that depth of knowledge and the like really whether you call it niching down or it is some of this like multi narrative story. That's where. So you asked me as we were starting of like what my core and central thesis would be and how this comes together if we were going to dig in on this for the brainy business stuff. And I was saying like, oh, it's, it's kind of a weird time because I'm really looking at this new. Which is not New. But anyway, so I'm in an interesting spot where I'm really excited about what exists in that space. So, you know, there's a little peek behind the curtain to the world that, that whole metaphor, cognitive semiotics, brain association pieces. My, my new favorite thing.

Yeah, Maybe we could use this opportunity as the, the personal. Like how can you use multi narrative storytelling as personal? So one of the things I think that's difficult for you is you're a person out in the world. So whatever you use as sort of your core statement and then start building the narrative around it, you have to go out to the world, everyone at once and say that. Right. So I've been working with like lots and lots of companies like Google and Blizzard level people on their like, you know, their missions and their visions and stuff like that. And that is like they've got to get that right and when they got to get that out there. But when I work with my undergraduate students, it's not like that because they can walk into pretty much any interview or any single time they submit a resume that isn't like pulling it off of LinkedIn and they can sort of make whatever multi narrative storytelling seems right for that sort of position. And so my multi narrative storytelling, as I said, is scientific mind, artistic art. But there are also situations where I will come in and I will say, you know, I'm a science minded business professional with a little bit of creative side and that will be the way that I will phrase my narrative and start the storytelling because that is what that audience needs from me. And even though Troy is best truly described as scientific mind, artistic heart and that I only have a business sensibility because it's necessary and I don't genuinely get excited about business. He says on the Brady Business podcast.

I know, I was gonna say, boo, you're out, you're kicked out.

I know this is who you want, this is who you want your chief scientist and these creatives be. I was on a. So I'm also a chief, I'm the chief scientist on repeat, but I'm also a chief creative at a startup. And I said to all the other people on the execs, I'm like at the end of a call where I barely talked, I was like, thank you all for being so business, not making me have to deal with it because I couldn't do what they could do on these like crazy like scalable 250, half a billion dollar models. I'm like, I can't do this. Where was I? Okay, yeah, Students. All right, so one of the ways in which if you're trying to form your first multi story narrative is just, you know, one of the things is just almost like a resume. Just get all the things that you've done and see what connects those, what brings those all together. And it's, you will be able to do it. And I know you will be able to do it because in graduate school, some professors have an exercise to prove this where they give students three random publications from different people in slightly different fields and say, make a thesis that connects all these things together. So it is definitely possible to do this. The other thing I often like talking with students is, you know, here's all the things you do. Why are you proud of it? What made you useful in doing it. And two of my favorite sort of theses on people that I ever had found. One was with a student we'll call M and M. He was creative, but we were trying to really figure out what it is he wanted to do. And also he was applying to this job where he would like be managing this creative process. And by thinking about the constraint of both what he was applying to and what he had done, we realized, oh, em, you really like to quote, lead the creative. And we just saw in his examples, oh, and his multi scenarios there was great. He was like, I always liked doing creative things, but I felt happiest when I ended up leading a creative organization at school, this creative club. And lots of people would come up to him and say almost like what I said to the business people, which is, you know, I'm so glad you're here because I would never want to do what you did. And we had all these little pieces of stories that were just like genuinely proof of who he was as an individual and then also related to the amazing creative output that he did for both businesses and the University of Oregon.

So if, if someone wanted to tackle this and we'll just go from I guess the personal brand piece, because that's kind of what you're just, you're talking about and that I know that's something a lot of entrepreneurs look at doing that personal brand. And you get so tied in, in small business. And I'm a perfect example of this where there's this crossover of like, what's Molina Palmer and what is the brainy business? And where do they cross over? Where are they the same? And how do these like work together? And trying to disentangle and separate those things is a feat in it, in and of itself.

Right.

So with this where which I've been in the process of creating. So melinapalmer.com does exist and I've been working on building that out and separating some things from the brainy business and moving things around. But that whole conversation about what goes where is is its own animal, like I said. So with this though, so if someone is trying to sit down and whether it's like you say your, you know, the personal brand, your values statement of what you want in your life as you're going to go be working in an organization and you're having stuff in your resume, the like who am I and what matters to me or as an entrepreneur or whatever do you recommend that you just like do the long journaling thing of like stories that we just like willy nilly start writing everything out or what sort of do we do I am statements or like what do we do to get there?

Yeah, I mean I think the important thing is to one of the simplest ways is to think about what your constraint is. So I'll give a more full answer if you don't have this. But this is usually the truth. Usually the truth is you are creating a product and you are or you are pitching a product or you're trying to be hired by something or you're at a startup or you're trying to get a certain type of job and in that situation you know what they value at least to some degree. Right. And so all of a sudden what you're doing is you're trying to create a multi story narrative around why you are the right person to be founding this company or why you are the right person to be hired in this situation. And some. And that can be incredibly constraining. Right. And, and useful. And so for instance I am the chief scientist of one company and chief creative at another company and my multi story narrative is very different in that. And when I was a business professor the artistic hearts was a useful thing but I was a business professor who did scientific research so that was the center of that. And it can start a huge amount of constraint which can be very, very useful.

Yeah. So when you look at something I just want to. So we talked about just do it as you know from Nike. And so is it that their tagline is a multi narrative storytelling thing or as their figuring out like what that means for them and where you've been saying your scientific mind, artistic heart like what. What is it that makes that a multi narrative storytelling tactic or how that. What makes that your multi narrative.

Yeah. So one day the skateboarder Looked at the big jump that no one in his town his age would go off and he thought about all the times he'd practiced that trip on his trampoline. And then he just looked into the sky at sunset. And that time in the moment, he just went down the ramp and he just did it. That's a single story, right? But Nike has a million other of those things. So when Nike creates a slogan like just do it, it is inherently meant to be told as a multi narrative. Right. And so that is how that is just inherently going to be that as a person who is trying to come into a place and me saying scientific mind, artistic heart, that is going to have to be a multi narrative. Right. There's going to have to be lots of things that I have done in the past that have proven the effectiveness or that or the truth of those things as I define them inside of me. That is now going to be the reason these people hire me. And I think that what's really interesting is if we think about. And I do have a lot of stuff to say about origin stories, but that's a whole sort of other thing on something called the destiny narrative, which is actually a really cool thing. But let's not. What I think is. And I think it's possible to tell those stories, but I think lots of times what people end up telling their origin story is it's like how did I come to here? And literally like their thing is I need to tell a story to explain why I'm here. And that is not why you need to tell that story in that room. You need to tell a story that convinces people I have the things that you want. Right. This product by Nike has the things that allows you to. And that's a lot of different use coming through the Nike store to express themselves. I person founding this company have the sets of skills to lead to that outcome.

Yeah. So what I hear in that is with that kind of core central theme of just do it as our example, it's specific enough that I can relate to something that that might mean to me. And I can at many times I may have even like used that phrase to will myself to jump off the diving board to do whatever the thing is. But it's also broad enough that what it means to just do it for me isn't necessarily what it means for you or for my husband or for anybody else. But we all have enough that it like motivates all sorts of different types of athletes and, and whatever to. To go a little bit further to Push a little bit more. There are many, many stories that can make that up, and one of them would be mine is the consumer, which is what makes that such a powerful tagline for Nike.

Yep. It's very similar to Obama's hope, right? Like hope. And he gives a couple different examples of what hope means. So it really means like, you know, hope for the better for the country, hope for us getting together. Hope for. Right. And the. The. Or his other similar slogan, right? Yes, we can. Right. And those slogans mean something specific, but also mean something. A set of things because of the examples that Obama and his campaign delivered of Nike and their campaigns deliver, but also are so understandable that you can figure out what to do with it, Right? So one of the things I say as an educator is whenever you're trying to give somebody a final project, right? And a final project is kind of a thing, right? This final project is this type of a creative thing, right? It's a. You need to do a pitch for a company or you need to write a personal essay. If you give the students the template and give them no examples, usually they just won't do very well. If you give them the template and you give them one example, they will straight copy that one example in tone and maybe content and maybe some light plagiarism.

Sentence structure is like word count. It's like exactly the same.

But if you say a pitch is between three and six minutes and can include, you know, three to eight of these principles, and here are three examples that are quite different, but all feel like a business pitch, or here are three personal essays that are all quite different, but are all still personal essays, not generalized essays. Then all of a sudden, with the right students, the right conversation and the right attention, the right motivation, those students are going to produce really, really good stuff because they're able to understand sort of the space in which this idea can operate, they can sort of understand the boundaries and possibilities. And that is unbelievably wonderful and beautiful that you can quickly help somebody understand the possibility of this thing to some degree. It's also what memes do, right? So meme is here's this type of dance or this type of ice bucket challenge, right? And all of a sudden you see one, and then somebody puts their own spin on it, and somebody else puts their own spin on it, and it quickly becomes like, here is the thing that is essentially the meme. Like, without this, this is not this thing. But then there's all these other spaces that you can add into it, and it Also ends up creating a multi narrative storytelling for what those things can mean. Memes aren't a perfect example because of sort of that they're meant to evolve, but it is within the realm of like this core story with. With multiple narratives that use a core.

Ish thing. Yeah. I think there's just so much value in that for brands. I really like the example you gave of the students with the paper because we've seen that. Right. That's a thing. Like, I get what that means and I can see where if I say this is the one thing that you end up having a problem in a. I see that in a business scenario. So say you're pitching a new client or something and you only have one example of like people work with us like this and someone says, well, I don't need that. Like there's, you know, we're done, the end. Right. That doesn't apply to what I'm needing.

To do right now.

That's not a fit for me. I'm out. Whereas if we have a couple things that are touching on different aspects, I'm able to see myself maybe a little bit from this story. A little bit of that. I'm picking up on what makes sense and is important to me. People are really good at making stuff about themselves.

Yeah.

So if you are able to present that information in a way that you're able to help them to see themselves and their problem and how you might be able to solve it, it's like doing a lot of the work for you and by picking up on different examples. If there's one thing about this story that they don't like, if you have one, one single narrative and it doesn't land like, you're done, it's over. You lost. Right. Whereas if you have this multi narrative opportunity, you're able to help relate to more people and get that point across and really solidify what it means to work with you and what your company's about.

Yeah. So if you think about even like your Brainy Business podcast. Right. So if you just like open some of the recent episodes and the episode was called Biases or a Behavior on the Science in In the Wild with Dilip Soman. Right. If that was the only one that you saw, you would be like, oh, Brainy Business is not for me and that episode probably is. Or some people would say, it's not for me and that episode is not going to be interesting to me. But if you look at all these episodes and you're like, Pain of paying charities reciprocity the amazing power of giving. Solving modern problems with the Stone Age brain. The devil you know, all of a sudden all of these things are getting you a sort of better understanding of what this podcast is and it might even change your interpretation possibly of what is even in the other episodes. So if I see Behavioral Science in the Wild with Dilip Soman, I see this incredibly businessy looking person with, yes, a playfully covered book, but he could have just got a cool designer to make that.

I want to make sure everyone knows that Dilip is amazing. We love Dilip.

Continue. Yes. Yeah, and yeah, sorry. Also Nina's on that book. Nina was like one of my idols when I was just starting out in academia and bias sees math is hard. Oh, oh, okay. Interesting. There might be some math in there. Solving modern problems with the Stone Age brain. Oh, maybe this podcast is actually maybe a little bit more, you know, intellectual than I thought. Oh, that episode will be. I'll be more interested in that episode. I bet that's less boringly business than I might have originally thought. Sorry. I'm using this as a pretty, you know, stark example. But also brains work like this, so it's not far off from how actually people would be. Right.

Well, this is very much why. So I put a lot of thought into the branding of the brainy business. Surprise, surprise, I'm sure. But in choosing the, the way that I built out the logo, in making it be what I call squishy.

Right.

So it's cartoony, it's bright colors, it's got the like brain, like font without being weird. You have the rocket, you can tell that then the smoke underneath it is a brain. So that's got some of that. Thoughtful, but for someone who's interested in starting to look at behavioral economics. And when I started the podcast, nobody was doing this and very few people were talking about behavioral economics in applying in business. And so someone who did go to search on a podcast channel and searches for behavioral economics and you're worried it's going to be a really boring lecture nightmare that you don't want to sit in. But you're a business person, you want to know how to apply it and not get bored and hate it. Then you look and you see this like fun looking easily where you feels relatable. It's like I said, it's soft and squishy sort of thing that you go, that seems like it could be fun. I'm gonna check that out. Right. Getting that first moment is to get the click right that it's. It's fun. It's interesting. There's a lot like hidden gems in there. It's very thoughtful, but it's not this like weighty academic, even though there's a lot of academic stuff in there. But it's about getting over that initial hurdle. And that's a big part of the branding of the brainy business, is that it's making things applicable, it's making things understandable, it's making it fun and just giving you what you need, you know, when you need it. And that starts even with the way that the. The logo is set up was a big, you know, big piece.

Yeah. So like if you think of your logo as just like your slogan, right. Sort of like your material difference when we were talking about Owens Corning Brainy business. It's fun. The brain is launching you off. So it's like, oh, so we're going to be brainy about business in a way that is going to lead to positive results. Right. Is sort of what this thing seems to be showing and. Right. And then all of a sudden you can look through some of the episode titles and all of a sudden now they make sense. Oh, we're going to use business in the wild to do this. Oh, we're going to use the ability to talk about our stone age brain, but in a friendly way to help you in your decision making. Right. And this, this sort of thesis then mixed with the stories and whatnot. And you, when you're selecting your imagery and your titles and everything, are sort of constantly building out this sort of thesis that you have established generally and also just specifically with this podcast. And then everything is you proving that thesis. And I think that's sort of what marketing and especially the multi narrative storytelling is. It's like saying, here's the thesis of what this thing is and what's really cool about that is when you say that then the next thing example you're going to give people are going to say, you gave me this thesis is what you said inside of them. Right. And lots of times we'll be like, people will be like, oh, we are a creative businessy firm. You know, we just do lots of exciting things to lead to positive results. And then you see a picture on their website and they're doing post it notes, which is like literally the most boring way to be creative possible. But it is effective. But it is the most boring way. It doesn't really sort of work with this sort of like wacky spirit. Right. And if what you're selling yourself on is the wacky spirit and then the first thing you show is the most boring version of it, then people are gonna be like nah. But if you said we use effective creative things with a deep focus on solving the problem where we put the problem over everything and then you show the post it notes, all of a sudden that fits. It's like oh yeah, you do. Those post IT notes are about everything that is important. Yeah. We need to focus on the business goal. Right. And yeah. And so it's just your story with your core idea or what I say core story with the narratives, the specific examples that prove your story.

I love it. I'm very interested to hear what all the listeners go out and do as they're working now on their own multi narrative stories for for themselves and for their businesses. Please do share them with Troy and I as you put that all together. You can find me on the socials as the brainy biz and Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. Troy, how shall people best contact and tag you in the places?

The best place to find me is on my website, troy-campbell.com because somebody beat me some other Troy Campbell troy-.com and you can get links and all the all the fun stuff there.

Perfect. We'll put all the links in the show notes. And thank you very much Dr. Troy Campbell for joining me on the show again. It was fun to chat with you.

Awesome. Thanks everyone. Happy storytelling.

Thank you again to Dr. Troy Campbell for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I love how Troy's mind works and how he can help others to understand the ways they can leverage techniques from other companies like Disney or Nike in their own business. He's the perfect mix of fun and science. It's that scientific mind and artistic heart.

At work to ensure that people have.

Fun and learn along the way. It's definitely not a coincidence that we're friends. As you look at your own company now, take some some time to consider the many narratives within your organization. How can multi narrative storytelling and the lessons from Troy today tie into your strategy moving forward for customers of course, and also for employees. What are they trying to accomplish and how can you help them get there? Using the power of story to help support this thoughtful approach and really digging in and asking good questions. This coming Tuesday's episode is on understanding mapping which is the you in nudges and helps people to see and understand value as they're making a decision. Understanding the stories that could be told, the diversity of those you're communicating with and what thread might weave them together in a way that takes a lot of time but feels natural and effortless. That's what makes our favorite brands great. Take the time to find and understand the stories so you can weave them together and and use that power within your company and to help you with that process are the other episodes in this storytelling series, including David Paul, the TEDx speaker coach who was here a couple weeks ago talking about behavioral storytelling, as well as Dr. Michelle Auerbach and Sam Evans. All those episodes and more are linked for you in the show notes, along with related books, ways to get in.

Contact with Troy and more.

It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 2933 and thank you again to Dr. Troy Campbell for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You won't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.