305. Finding Your Congregation: Culture as a Catalyst for Connection in Brand Building with Marcus Collins

Welcome to episode 305 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Marcus Collins, author of for the Culture. Ready?

Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello.

Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Dr. Marcus Collins, an award winning marketer and cultural translator with one foot in the world of practice, serving as the head of strategy at Weeden and Kennedy, New York and one foot in the world of academia as a clinical assistant professor of marketing at the Ross School School of Business at the University of Michigan. He is a recipient of advertising ages 40 under 40 award and an inductee into the American Advertising Federation's Advertising hall of Achievement. His strategies and creative contributions have led to the launch and success of Google's Real Tone Technology, the Made in America Music Festival and the Brooklyn Nets, among others. Prior to his advertising tenure, Marcus worked on iTunes/ Nike Sport Music initiatives at Apple and ran digital strategy for Beyonce. Marcus holds a doctorate in marketing from Temple University where he studied social contagion and meaning making. He received an MBA with an emphasis on strategic brand marketing from the University of Michigan where he also earned his undergraduate degree in material science engineering. You know, this is going to be a fun and interesting conversation. I can't wait to jump right in with you and really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I just want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for everything, including related past episodes, links to articles and books, including for the culture, of course, and so much more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 305. Now let's jump right in. Dr. Marcus Collins, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Hello. Thanks so much for having me here.

Absolutely.

I'm so, so excited to have you. I have loved your book for the Culture, which I feel bad I only.

Have up on the wall.

Well, the rest are yours, so that's okay.

Well, for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about your background, experience and who you are?

Sure. I'm a product of Detroit. I always start that way because I feel like the city made me in many ways. So I'm from Detroit, born and raised. I had the fortunate pleasure of living in two worlds. A world of practice and a world of academia. I'm a marketing professor at the Ross School of Business of Michigan. Go blue. But I'm also the head of strategy at Wieden and Kennedy, New York, an advertising agency that's historically known, famously known for our work with Nike. We created Just do it, and Nike's been our client for over 40 years. So I always say it this way. I get to put ideas in the world as a practitioner. I get to put people in the world as an academic. And I bridge the academic practitioner gap through the things that I rigorously interrogate on the academic side and apply them to the world in a very practical way as an advertiser slash marketer. And I'm also Alex's husband and George and Ivey's father.

Important, important, important. Super not important. And it'll be a little bit like late. Ish. But. So the movie air, that just came out. Ish, right? Have you seen it for one?

I have not seen it. I've heard nothing but amazing things. They say this movie. Apparently you don't even see Michael Jordan in the movie hardly. It's. He's like, hardly there. But the. All about him and Nike and why didn't Kenny get a few shout outs? I heard. So I feel like I got all the. All the spoiler alerts without seeing it.

Nah. No way. Well, here's the good thing, right?

Like. Well, I would say we all kind of know the story, but it's a. It's a interpretation.

Right?

It's like Ben Affleck's interpretation of the story versus, like being fully, fully and I guess the original author.

Right.

But it's a little bit different than that. But it was really interesting to. To watch and see the pieces of the branding and everything there. So I figured if you had a little inside thought of how things were being interpreted there at Wyden and Kennedy, it'd be interesting. But, yeah, they don't really show Michael Jordan at all. And I did see an interview with Ben Affleck where it was saying, like, you never see the face or anything of the character that's playing Michael Jordan. Because it's like, if I'm trying to tell you, like, this is Michael Jordan, you're like, no, no, it isn't.

That's probably a good call. That's probably good.

So the. Any of the shots of the game and stuff, they had actual footage of. Of him playing and whatever. So Like I said, random aside, but that's always fun. But you have worked with really amazing people and brands and entities and all sorts of things over the years. I thought it was really fascinating reading a bit about, you know, your journey, which I'm sure is just a little bit. But can you share, you know, how you got to be doing some of the things that you've worked on that you've talked in the book, and then, you know, how that, I guess, ties in with the importance of culture.

It's been a long and windy road, as they say.

But, like, it was a Beatles reference.

There you go. Hello. But I feel very, very fortunate for it. So, as a Detroiter, I did well in math and science. And in those days, if you had a penchant for math and science and you were black, you're going to be an engineer. So I studied engineering. I went to the University of Michigan, studied engineering, materials engineering. Thought the polymers were cool. I don't know if I've defined polymers as cool today, but the idea, the concept of these carbon chains coming together because of their shared affinity for electrons I thought was just really cool. Anyway, studied engineering undergrad, and I realized, I don't think I want to be an engineer. And I went home that summer after freshman year, said, mom and dad, I don't know if I want to be an engineer. My mother, who's an academic, says, well, wait until you take classes in your major. When you take classes in your major, you'll love it. Now my mother's an academic, so I trust her. Great, great. Do that. I did not love it at all. And my GPA tells a similar story. So I took some music theory courses the winter term because my GPA was horrible. I didn't want to fill out of school, so I took some music theory courses. I played piano in church and sang in choir. So I thought that was going to be just an easy thing to do. And I fell in love with major sevenths. It was my first time feeling as an adult that I was excited about learning. I couldn't wait to learn about modal mixtures. I just could not wait. I came home that summer after my sophomore year, said, mom and Dad, I know what I want to do for the rest of my life. And they tell us, out with it. I want to be a songwriter. Oh, no, you don't. No, sir, that is not true. And we fought the battle of Jericho that day, and I lost. And I went back to school at the end of the summer to finish my engineering degree was spend all my time in the music studio that was there on campus. And when I graduated right after 9 11, the market was terrible. So I thought that this was the divine sign for me to go pursue my dreams as a musician. And I went to work in the music industry, did a short stint as an intern at Universal Music Group. Didn't love that, came back to Michigan or to Ann Arbor, ran a recording studio for one of my professors in school of music and was just writing and producing on all the time in the studio that wasn't booked by a paid session. And you fast forward a business partner of mine who was also an ex engineer for Michigan, we decided to to start a company where we were developing artists, but helping pair brands with these up and coming artists in these local areas. And it was working out for us pretty well. Until it wasn't. So I went to school to figure out what was this disruption that was happening in music that we call digital. So I went back to Michigan. Thank God they let me in this place again. And I studied marketing because I thought that was the most creative aspect of business. Studied marketing at Michigan for my mba, went to go work at Apple doing partner marketing for iTunes. Met this guy named Matthew Knowles who has a daughter named Beyonce. And he goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

I think I've heard that name before.

And he says, wait a minute, hold up. You were an engineer, you started a music company, you have an mba, you worked at Apple, and you're black, dude, you don't exist if you're a unicorn. You're not real. I go, I'm real, I'm a real person. He says, well, you should run digital strategy for Beyonce. And I said, yes sir, I should do that. And I did. Which was phenomenal. It was phenomenal. Like, you know, I felt like that moment in time I was able to see a brand, in this case a person as a brand transcend from what she does, her category and as a musician or an actress and a performer, to be something so much greater, an icon that has all this meaning beyond her per performance, beyond the music. And I got a front row seat to watch this take place, which for a marketer is just unbelievable. But I started to realize that my growth in music was stunted because I felt like the smartest guy in the room when it came to digital and social. But I was not the smartest guy. And I realized that my counterparts who'd worked at Facebook and Twitter and advertising agencies, they understood the space far better than I did. So I decided to go into advertising at A pure play social media agency, learning social in and out like boot camp for social. And then I met a gentleman named Steve Stout, who was a music industry executive who started an advertising agency with his partners Jay Z and Jimmy Iovine called Translation, and he says, you should come build the social practice here. And I said, I should totally do this. And I did it. And it became the best, biggest inflection point in my career. Because it was this moment that I realized I knew nothing about social. My wife and I are at dinner with one of her friends from post college, and her name is Sarah, and she's a social worker. And at dinner, Sarah keeps saying, in social, we do this, in social, we do that. In social, we do this. And I go, why does she keep saying that? Because that's exactly what I say as the quote, unquote social guy. In social, you do this. Television, you do that. Radio, you do this. But social, you do this. Social, social, social, social. And I realized, oh, social means people. And in that moment, I had this massive epiphany. Socialist people, social work, social justice, social action. It's all about people. And then that euphoria from having this revelation turn into dread because I realized I knew nothing about people. Nothing other than what I've experienced myself. Any anecdotal experiences I had. I knew the word Freudian slip. That's it. I took a sociology course in undergrad, and I slept through it, which is a bad thing, but I knew nothing about people. And I told my wife, my then girlfriend, which is my fiance, then, now wife, I said, alex, I'm going to get fired because I'm a fraud. My understanding of social was as wide as a peephole. I didn't understand people. I knew the technology, but I didn't understand people. And my wife, thank God for her, she had worked with a gentleman by the name of Dan Ariely. And Dan Ariely actually wrote her recommendation letter to come to Michigan. That's where we met. And she said, my friend Dan wrote this book, has a lot to do with people. Maybe this will be helpful. And I was the kind of guy at that time that I don't read books, I read articles. Just stupid. And she handed me this book called Predictably Irrational. And I said, all right. I am in such despair. I mean, like, such desperate scenario. I'll read anything. And I read the book, and it rang a bell that I couldn't unring. And I tell Dan to this day that he changed my life. The book changed my life, because I realized that there is an underlying physics to humanity. And if we understand the underlying physics of why we do what we do and how we do it, then this understanding will help illuminate ways by which we can create interventions to get people to adopt behavior. And as a marketer, our job is to influence behavior to get people to move. And in that moment, I realized this is what I want to invest myself in. So I read his book Predictably Irrational. I read it again, took me forever because I was a slow reader, probably I'm still a slow reader in a lot of ways. Read his book again, highlighted all the research that I thought was super interesting. And I read that research. So Dan Ariely, I think he led me to Kahneman. It led me to, to, to George Lowenstein. And then I found myself somehow getting into, into Solomon Ash. Then I found myself in Milgram's, then Dan Chip Heath and Thaler and Duncan Watts. I mean, and I just, I just could not stop reading. I was. My curiosity was insatiable. And as I read something, I would read the research to go read that. And it became sort of self reinforcing. And I was like, oh, I remember that study. I read that study. I know that, I know that Milgram study. And I would just continue to read. And the most fascinating thing happened to me that I was in the office talking to someone about influence. And someone said, if we get Kanye to tweet it, that's old Kanye, by the way. Don't judge me. He said, if we get Kanye to tweet it, then everyone would do it. And I said, that's not how influence works. Say, what do you mean? It's like, no, influence doesn't work this way. Here's how influence works. And I found myself, watched myself in an outer body experience talk about network theory in a way that I never knew I understood until I was speaking about it from all the things that I have read. And at that moment I became a much better practitioner. And out of that I launched the Brooklyn Nets, moved them from New Jersey to come to Brooklyn, launched the Cliff Paul campaign for State Farm, create the Made in America music festival for Budweiser. All of these things came from theory, theory of human behavior, of the social sciences. And that for me has been the biggest cheat code in my career, which is how I found myself in academia after the fact.

I, for all the reasons of all the things. This is why I feel like I should say, I apologize in advance. You don't have a choice. We're best friends now this has happened.

Let's do It. I'm here for it.

But like, all the, all the things even from. So I was actually gonna go to school for musical theater. That was always what I was going to do. And. And I actually decided, though. Funny. So, funny enough, a catalyst moment for me. One was I looked around. It was while I was in high school, I was filling out, you know, Juilliard and those sorts of things. And it's like everyone I know that gets a degree in music and, you know, again, small circle of knowledge here, but it's like becomes a high school choir teacher or something with church or whatnot. And while those are amazing things, I'm so thankful for the, you know, instructors I've had. Like, I want to do more than that. And you can always sing, right? So I ended up going to school for business after kind of popping around a couple options, and I decided to do marketing because it was the most creative option of, of what was there. And then when I was in my undergrad, I saw this little piece about buying psychology and why people did the things they do. And I spent 10 years looking for the way, you know, what this was and schools telling me it wasn't a program and it didn't exist. And I was part of this innovation group, and they brought in people from the center, from Advanced Hindsight, from Duke University, were talking about their work. This is what I've been looking for. And so Dan, again, the catalyst. All roads. All roads lead to Dan Ariely, right?

All roads lead to Dan Ariely. And he's the best. And what I'm grateful for for him is not only the book he wrote, but my wife introduced me to him years ago. And every time I reach out, he's always helpful and he's always willing to give encouragement, to give advice. And for me, that was really important because I had a ton of insecurities coming to the world of academia because, I mean, this is all new to me. Everything was new to me. And I was self learning. I was just learning from when I was reading. It was all self directed. And it wasn't until I got into my doctoral program that things like really ratchet up. But for a long time, almost a decade, it was just me sort of like reading the Hudson News version books and then trying to find the research and going to Google Scholar and pulling the academic work down and couldn't read that stuff because it's just so dense and I didn't know the nomenclature, but I struggled through it. And to have someone sort of see you and guide you is just really powerful. And I've been fortunate enough to have that and people like Grant McCracken, Rob Koznets, and in my field now in consumer culture theory, and hopefully prayerfully, inshallah, the book that I've written for the culture would be that way for another Marcus Collins.

I think it definitely will. And I'll say that that experience with Dan is something I've heard from other people, myself included. And not having any sort of introduction to Dan, but being just me being that guy all the time, where it's like, I'm going to just send the email, like, let's see what happens, right? And so, you know, I sent Dan an email when I was doing research on my master's program. I was going to extend some research he had done. And, you know, it says some things you might be interested, like for future researchers, which is what everyone has to do, right? But said, hey, there are like 25 things in here. Is there anything that you're particularly excited about if I'm going to be doing some research on this? And he was kind enough to have a call with me, which I, you know, like, oh, my gosh, running around the house was so excited, right? And got on the phone and I realized how stupid I was.

I was thinking the exact same thing right off the phone. I was like, he must think I'm a moron bubbling a bumbling idiot talking to this man.

Yes. But he did help in SO one the super Dunning Kruger effect moment. For sure. For sure. And for everyone that's not familiar, I'll link to the episode in the show notes, but that's the confidence, competence, conundrum sort of problem where I was feeling like I knew a lot of things and I'm going to reach out to Dan and have this conversation. Look how great I am. And I had this conversation, like, whoa, yikes. Like I'm super dumb. But, you know, when I was talking about the research and he said, well, what's your favorite concept? So I asked, okay, this gold coin experiment. What do you care about? What would you be interested in? He said, well, what. What are your favorite topics when you think about behavioral economics? What do you care about? And I'm kind of right, because I'm reasonably early in my program and everything, and said, well, you know, time discounting, you know, I kind of like. And some things. And so then it's basically this idea that you can build any. Any of the concepts can fit into any application that you want. Right? But understanding how they work and thinking about it in this different way. Even though it isn't the super obvious way to do it, that you can build a case for anything, you can at least start to investigate and see, you know, what might that look like? Right. This, the power in the question is something that I've always really loved. And so. Yeah, but just such so generous and that I try to do the same, you know, when people ask questions and you know, a lot of that inspired by Dan. So of course Dan has been on the show. So we will link to his episode in the show notes. Awesome as well.

I mean, well, at least you were 10 miles ahead of me. Because if you would have asked me when I first met Dan what interests me most about behavioral economics, I would have said all of it. I just think it's just so fascinating. It's just so fascinating that people predictably do irrational things. And I totally do that. And when I started my doctoral program, this is years and years and years after I first met Dan. I even talked to him when I got accepted to Temple. Like, I'm going to get my doctorate. It's amazing. I thought that I was excited about psychology and behavioral economics. I thought that that's definitely what I was going to focus on through a marketing lens. I thought that was going to be my focus. But I found myself in the world of sociology. Like the majority of my theoretical repertoire sits in sociology with, I say, a tangential connection to anthro. My field actually is called consumer culture theory. And I tell you how I got there, because I thought that when I was starting my program, I was curious about how things spread. Like why do, why, how do things propagate from person to person? And that's like well worn territory. Like this idea of social contagion has been studied way, way, way, way back. Like Baldwin studied it back in the 1800s. And then you got Le Bon and then you got Durkheim and Tart. Like that's still the 1800s. This is nothing, nothing new here, here. But I was really excited about environments, nudges. I was excited about defaults. I was really excited about semiotics, placement and then the cultural nuances. And what I realized is that like, oh, the thing that I've always sort of gravitated towards is the notion of culture. And rather I was a songwriter. I felt like I'm doing it for the culture, as Jay Z said. That's why I called the book the way I did. But I always found myself in these places where cultural production was happening. I didn't have the language for it then. But I just kind of called it, like, oh, I'm in culture. I'm in culture. I do advertising. I'm in culture. And while Thaler and those guys and the Heath brothers does such a good job of talking about nudges in the environment, these defaults in the environment, there wasn't a lot of talk about culture, right? And even, you know, the earliest sociologists, which is how I got into it, sociology, is that, you know, these guys studied religion or observe religion to understand culture, these conventions and expectations of people like us. And I was like, oh, that's so fascinating, because I was a church boy. I sang in choir, right? It's like, oh, these things are starting to coalesce for a doctoral student. We start seeing those things, those convergences have to be like, I'm on to something really, really good here. I think I'm onto a thing. And then what really pushed me over the edge is that as an advertiser, I realized that we use the word culture all the time. And if you ask five people to define it, you'll get 25 different answers like, that's a problem. This is a problem. And I started to lean myself into that. And while behavioral economics got me into the space, what really pushed me there is this notion of understanding why we do what we do when we're with the people that we're with. And as a discipline, marketing. Marketing was the applied theory of economics. Economics was the theory. Like we use economic theory to understand people, which, of course, is the genesis of behavioral economics, that we are not rational beings, right? The market is not perfect. We're these machines that we think are value maximizers. It's just not so and so for marketers. In the 1950s, we call this the madman era. Market started using psychology to understand how people cognate, right? So if we understand how people process the world around them and how that influences consumption, then we would be a better. We would do a better job of creating these catalysts, these catastrophes, these interventions that get people to adopt behavior. Great. But then marketers realized that, oh, understanding how people cognate is awesome, but people act differently. We're different people. So marketers started to use sociology. They use sociology theory to better understand consumer behavior. This is like the 1980s. And then market said, oh, this is so much better. We're learning so much more about people, why they consume. And then he said, wait a minute, hold up. People act differently with different people based on the institutional conventions and expectations of those people, which is another way of saying culture in 1990s marketers started leveraging culture as a way to understand people. And while we use that theory to better understand why people do what they do, we certainly have not looked at it from a contemporary lens, at least not enough when it comes to how things spread and how the technologies we use exacerbate and accelerate the spread. So that is a long, long winded way of saying, I am so very thankful for this gentleman named Dan Ariely and all the who have contributed to the theory of behavioral economics, because I literally would not be where I am if it weren't for that. Great work done.

Oh, I love that. And all the journey. Right. That sort of path of discovery I think is so helpful for people. I have two branches that I want to make sure that we tackle, I guess, as we go here. Super mixed metaphor. And I accept it. We'll just keep going for this. So the one piece is so. And you can choose your own adventure. Kind of how we go here. One being there are so many amazing things that you have in the book. And the. I love when you read something you're like, of course, obviously. Right. And there are so many of those in the book. One that really, really, really stood out for me, perhaps because it's the first one. I'm just like, whoa, my. My brain, I can't even handle it. Is the find a congregation versus the. Like, you're my target market. Right. Just what everyone does love this. And I think just like that in and of itself is enough for everyone to see. Like, yes, I need this book. And if you can talk a little bit about what that all means, that is amazing. The other side that I want to make sure we don't miss is one of the top questions I get from people from all over the world in all sorts of areas is saying, like, I love this. I get it. But at work, it's not my job to do behavioral economics or to be bringing in the people side of stuff. And people don't understand why this matters. I work in data, I work in marketing, I work in finance. I work anywhere. Hr, it doesn't matter. But like, I can't get people to buy in on why the people side matters and like, how do I do it? And I love that you have so many examples of showing how it's worked and, you know, giving that kind of practical advice I know people are going to really love.

Yeah, well, let's start with the. With the former in. With the second. But I'll say that for that second one, for the people who are Like I don't know how to apply this to my work. And I'm a finance guy, I'm not a behavioral economist. I would say that if you are in business, then your job is people, full stop. I think said this way that, that if you don't understand people, you don't understand business. Because everything associated with, with business is people. Whether it's external, that is consumers and mark as the marketing function or internal, that is management, leadership, human relations. Like everything revolves around people. And if you don't understand people, you don't understand business. But we'll come back to that. So let's go with the first. Right? So the idea of finding the congregation. So the argument of the book makes the claim, it posits that there is no external force more influential to human behavior. And why is that? Why would one make that argument? And though people go, yeah, I can buy that. Well, we make that argument because culture is anchored in our identity. Durkheim refers to this as a system of values, beliefs and symbols and norms that demarcate who we are relative to everyone else and what the expectations are of us. And if you look at the scholars later after him talk this about, like Raymond Williams talked about, like a system of systems anchored in who we are. So because I identify a certain way, I therefore adopt a certain set of ideologies and beliefs, right? I am if I say let's use religion, because that's how those early guys did it. If I'm a Christian, then I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross and was buried and resurrected for my sins. If I subscribe my identity to being a Christian, then therefore I hold those truths. Those are the truths. I hold the world. Those stories I tell myself and I my identity is the character in that story that Jesus died for me. And because I hold those beliefs and ideologies, I therefore dress a certain way, I behave a certain way, I go to church on Sunday mornings, I take the Lord's supper, I pray, I do all these things that one would do if you hold those beliefs. And I speak a certain way, right? So because of who I am, I see the world similarly with people like me. And I behave like people like me. And culture then is driven by a simple question. Do people like me do something like this? The answer is yes, I do it. The answer is no, I don't. We made the decision hundreds, if not thousands of times a day without even thinking. It's just what people like us do. Cool. So if that be the case, then who should we target as A marketer as a brand, as an entity. Right. If our job as marketers. You said earlier to get people to move, who's most likely to move? Oh, people like us. People like us. People who see the world the way we do because they don't move because of what the product good, the product service is. They move because of who they are, because their identity. Right. So the question becomes, what do we believe as a company, the convictions that we have, and then who sees the world the way we do? And that flies in the face of contemporary marketing communications or traditional marketing communications. We've been taught that we segment the market based on needs and wants and consumer behavior. And then we target the ones that are most likely to buy. And then we position the brand in the minds of people based on the value propositions. My razor sharper, my battery lasts longer, my car goes faster, my shampoo will get you laid, whatever, right? And marketers communicate that way. And the idea is that, oh, you want a sharp, A sharp. You want a close shave? Here's my sharp razor for you. But that looks at people based on consumption alone. And our identity isn't driven by consumption. Our consumption rather is driven by identity. So who are people really? They're not these boxes that we put them in, these nice, neat boxes that we put them in based on their demographics, their age, their race, their gender, household income or geography. They are the communities, the tribes, the networks to which they subscribe, their identity. So for us, then, we should be targeting people who see the world the way we do because they'll consume from us, not because of what we are, but because of who they are. So I used the nomenclature from religious texts, like those guys did, Weber, Marx and Durkheim, and said, these people, this collective of the willing, that's your congregation. So the idea then is don't target people who just want more body in their shampoo, whatever that means. I don't even know what that means. But don't just target those people. Target the people who see the world the way you do. Because those people not only consume because of who they are, but they'll go tell other people like themselves, and those people tell other people like themselves, and so on and so on and so on. They'll do the marketing communication for you. And if you look at almost everything that you've purchased, watched, download, subscribed to, it wasn't because you saw an ad. Your friend said, hey, it's this great show on Paramount plus, you gotta see it. They go, well, what is it? It's Called Yellowstone. You go, oh, I saw that ad. Not. Not for me. They look, trust me, you love this, Marcus. You go, nah, I don't like outdoor stuff. It's not for me. They're like, fam. Believe me, it's so good. And you go, all right, I'll give it a shot, because it's you. And that has much more influence on us than any television spot, radio clip or segment. People influence people, right? And the idea then is that, well, we should find the people that are most likely to influence people on our behalf, and those are our congregations, made up of many, many, many, many tribes. So I made this example in the book. Nike believes that every human body is an athlete. Every human body is an athlete. Big, small, short, tall. We're all athletes. And what does Nike do? Nike exists to help people realize best athletic self. This will happen to sell sneakers and apparel and technology and accessories. But why they do it is to help people realize their best athletic self. So who does Nike talk to? Athletes. They're people. My mom is 85 years old, and she wears Nikes. Nike ain't talking to her. There are people who cut their grass in Nikes. Nike ain't talking to you. They may buy the product, but that's not who Nike's talking to. Nike is preaching the gospel to its congregation, to people who see the world the way they do. And those people not only consume, but they go share the gospel with other people. It's a powerful, powerful thing. And Nike talks to swimmers in a way that's specific to swimmers, the tribe of swimmers. And talk to footballers in a very specific way, and runners in a very specific way, and wrestlers in a very specific way. But they all ladder up to one core belief, which makes it a very, very, very powerful perspective by which we might segment the market, target the market, and activate the market.

Yeah, it brings it back. So it's interesting in the movie air, you know, we're coming full circle here, but, you know, they're talking about how the basketball program at that point has no funding compared especially to the running department, right? So running's got all the money in the world because it's Nike, you know, and prefontaine and all that good stuff. And then you say, but, like, basketball's got nothing. They have no budget. They don't have anything. And you're trying to just do a little bit at a time and this idea of the person, right? And so the message in this being, you know, it's like a shoe is just a shoe until someone steps into it. And then, you know, the Viola Davis, not to like, it's not spoiling anything, but like, great line here. But she's like, yeah, so she was just a shoe until my son steps into it. Right.

So it's.

But this idea of being Michael Jordan and embracing and wanting to be like him. But he was an Adidas guy, right? So, loved Adidas. It was his thing. But.

And then even to realize people were.

Wearing Converse, like that was the basketball shoe.

What? That's what Magic Johnson was wearing, I think Magic Johnson was a Converse guy, right?

Yeah. And it's just like, nuh. Right.

You know, the first, you know, think about the Air Jordan logo. The first iteration of that logo was a photo taken, I think it was for Time magazine. And Jordan was wearing New Balance sneakers in that photo. Unbelievable, right? Unbelievable. And once he came, once he signed with Nike, apparently the designer who came up with the logo wanted to emulate that. So he had to reshoot it in that silhouette, became the thing. But it's really powerful. I mean, what it means is that, you know, I mean, sneakers are a commodity. There's like no new innovation in sneakers. Like you don't run faster than a sneaker. The sneakers don't make you jump higher. Like these things, they're commodities, but they have meaning because we imbue it with meaning. We impregnate it with meaning. And that's kind of what culture does. It's a meaning making system. Like we translate the world through these cultural lenses, through these conventions that we have. Right. That's why for some a cow is leather, for others is a deity. And for some it's dinner.

Right?

Right. Which one is it? It's all of them, depending on your cultural subscription. Right. So when, when we see these vessels of meaning that we call brands become reworked into our cultural practice, they're being reworked not because of what they are, but because of who. Who we are and how we imbue it with meaning. Which then gets to your second, the second path. So if you may not be a sociologist or a behavioral economist, but these are the biggest cheat codes you could ever, ever have. Because they speak to the underlying physics of humanity. Right? Like these things, they're in us. Our brains are wired this way. It's in our DNA to connect. Right. Aristotle said, man by nature is a social animal. Right. And even anthropologists, evolutionary anthropologists would argue that the reason why we were able to evolve as a species was our ability to cooperate. It's in us to connect. And our consumption is a product of our culture. In fact, I say this in the book, that consumption is a cultural act. What you buy, what you wear, how you adorn yourself, what you drive, the devices you use, where you go to school, if you go to school, who you marry, if you marry, where you bury the dead, if you bury the dead, what you eat, how you vacation, all these things are byproducts of our cultural subscriptions. So understanding the underlying physics of humanity becomes the biggest cheat code to whether you're an accountant, a finance person, a marketer, definitely hr, definitely a leader, definitely C suite. In fact, I use these concepts to try to get my kid to eat peas because she'll never do it, right? But I leverage the behavioral sciences because I know that these things, despite her disposition, despite her idiosyncratic twerks, these things are deeply bound in her, just like they are in me and in all of us to some degree or another. So I found that using these concepts have. It has been a hockey stick increase in my practice. And if you go back to those campaigns that I mentioned, I borrowed behavioral scientists to do all that work. The Cliff Paul campaign, I borrowed from George Lowenstein Gap in theory idea that if you create a gap in knowledge, that people will direct all of their cognitive capacity to close the gap. Because we don't like not knowing. It's like cognitive deprivation. When there's a gap in knowledge, create a gap, then people will close the gap. George Lowenstein moving the Brooklyn Nets to. Moving the Jersey Nets from New Jersey to Brooklyn, I borrowed from Edward Bernays propaganda theory that you can create social solidarity by declaring an enemy of the state. Thankfully for us, Brooklyn had an enemy of the state known as Manhattan. So we stoked Brooklyn pride by creating a rivalry between the two so that the Brooklyn Nets, the brand will become identity Mark a way of saying that I'm a Brooklyn resident, right? These things all came from the behavioral sciences, right? And I didn't even do the, the. I didn't even do the work. Thankfully, people far more brilliant than me did that research and I was able to apply it to what we do today. And I would argue that the reason why I am as good as I am, whether that's great or not, I'm not really sure. I don't want to evaluate it. But wherever I am in my best state, it's because of the theoretical repertoire that I have when it comes to understanding the social sciences.

Yeah.

And I think yes, for sure for all of that. And I think we can all say yes, you're very good at the things that you do and you've done good things, good work, and it's objective. It's not even a subjective opinion. And so with that, though, with the work that you did, like you're talking about the Brooklyn Nets and stuff with Beyonce and whatnot, did you feel. And using the George Lowenstein curiosity principle.

With any of that, though, were you.

Saying, feeling like you needed to educate the people about the thing and why it worked and why it mattered, or did you just lean on. This would be really cool and it would work and you know, the science, what was the balance of that?

So as a neophyte, I couldn't help but preach the gospel. I was like, let me tell you about George Lowenstein. George Lowenstein is a professor at Carnegie Mellon. I had to do the whole thing because I was just so new to it and so excited about it. And honestly, I think that a part of it was maybe a bit of ego on my end because I was just so happy that I understood it the way I did that I just wanted to hear myself talk about it too, if I'm being honest. So all my colleagues back in 2012, 2011, I'm sorry, but I think that, like, I just talked about it so much and like actually saying it more and teaching it helped me better understand it. So it was. Some ways it was self, self congratulatory. In other ways it was, it was self improving for me while also serving the work. Now that I have, I feel more confident in what I do. I don't talk about the theory as much because it actually can turn people away. You know, I hear all the time in business they go, that works in theory. And when I hear it, it makes my blood boil. It's like when people say, irregardless, sometimes it just makes people so angry. Like, that's what I hear. That's how I feel when I hear people say, it works in theory. And I go, everything is theoretical. What do you mean? Everything is a theory? What do you mean? There are no laws in the social sciences. Everything is theory. Anyway, I digress. So I spend less time sort of teaching and more time sort of contextualizing, talk about what's happening and why I think things are going to work the way that they are. And though I would love to go to town on here's the theory, and let me tell you where it came from and tell you about the research that was used to arrive at this revelatory concept, instead I try to make it just as plain as possible. And I credit teaching to that, I started teaching undergrads first before I started teaching graduate students and executives. So undergrads, I think about, how do I take this really complex idea and bring it down to something that they can not only understand, but can have it have some permanence in their minds. And doing that helped me, I think, beyond a better client partner and be a better corporate citizen. Because I want, like, let me philosophize to you about. Let me tell you about the Endowment effect. People refer to it as the IKEA effect, too. Instead of doing all those things, I say, well, here's why I think this is going to work, because people have a tendency to do this. Here's examples of it here, here, there, and there. And that's very similar to what we're doing here. It's the same contextual frame. So let's do X, Y and Z and see how it works. And I approach it, I suppose maybe this is me. Maybe my mother would be proud of this. I feel like this is me sort of coming into an academic. Coming to myself as an academic is that I've come to it from a very humble place. We write very humble places, academics. Because, like, based on what we know right now, when I first started, I was like, this is law. Kahneman said it, you know. But now it's like, well, there's evidence to suggest this, which means, therefore, we should. I think, looking at the world and approaching it from a more humble state, I think it's helped me socialize the thinking more and ultimately get it to impact the work.

Awesome. Thank you so, so much. I could definitely talk to you all day. And I'm sure everyone is so sad that we've come to the end of our time of being able to chat. So for everyone who is now so excited to go get their own copies of 4th the Culture, what is the best way for them to do that and to learn more about you and connect and any of that.

So it's available where all books are sold, the Amazons, the bars and nobles, and local bookstores of the world. You can find out more about me@marktothec.com m a r c t o t h e c.com and all the socials. I'm @marktothec.

I love it. Well, again, thank you, Marcus, for joining me on the show. It was so fun to chat with you. And I'm gonna go go think about culture for a while.

My pleasure. We're best friends now, so we'll do.

It again for sure.

Thank you again to Dr. Marcus Collins for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I really love the simple flip from a target market to thinking of your customers, consumers, members, what have you as a congregation? This really builds on Jonah Berger's book Contagious, which we talked about a little bit when he was just on the show two weeks ago, as well as the Power of Us, which is why my interview with Dominic Packer was the refreshed episode earlier this week. And of course both of those are linked for you in the show notes. Understanding identities and how we are a tribal species that looks to belong in groups and how that can really catch on in an amazing way when it's allowed to organically do so is so, so cool. You know, I've been thinking about what this could mean and look like for the brainy business. What would it look like if we had a congregation of listeners? What would their rallying cry be? How would they identify each other? What would they call themselves? What would the group norms be? Is there some congregation out there that I haven't been able to see yet? It's all been buzzing around in my brain for a couple months now and.

I would love to hear your thoughts.

Come find me on social media. You can find me as the brainy biz pretty much everywhere, as well as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. You can also send me an email to Molina atthebrainybusiness.com I would love to hear from you if you have thoughts. I'm so delighted to have been able to be an early reader of for the Culture and have had the chance to speak with Marcus and share a bit of his insights with you here today. What can your brand do to embrace the culture and those humans you're looking to connect with? How can it be mutual, mutually beneficial for everyone involved? Marcus has great examples of all sorts of companies all throughout the book, way more than we were able to discuss today, so be sure to get your copy and learn all about it. There is of course a link for you in the show notes as well.

As to related past episodes like those.

With Jonah Berger and Dominic Packer and so much more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 305 and thank you again to Dr. Marcus Collins for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You won't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me. And remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.