307. Unlock Your Potential: The Ultimate Guide to Great Mentorship with Scott Miller

Welcome to episode 307 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to have Scott Miller back on the show to talk about the ultimate guide to great mentorship. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Scott Miller, special advisor on thought leadership for the Franklin Covey Company, a company he previously worked at for 26 years in all sorts of roles. He's also a multi best selling author. He's been here twice before speaking out a couple of his awesome books, Marketing Mess to Brand Success and Management Mess to Leadership Success. He is also a host of Franklin Covey's podcast on Leadership with Scott Miller as well as hosts their book club on book club.com and is a globally celebrated keynote speaker. And he's just super fun to talk with and has a contagious energy that always gets me excited. Today we're talking about his new book, the Ultimate Guide to Great Mentorship and I'm so delighted that we have the opportunity to chat about this today because mentorship is so important in this book in which Scott talks about the 13 types of mentorship and how anyone can be a mentor and a much better one than they might be on their own. It is an easy read with a lot of applicable tips, some of which we're going to talk about in today's conversation really quickly. Before we get into it, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for everything, including related past episodes, links to articles and books including several of Scott's and so much more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 307 now let's jump right in. Scott Miller, welcome back to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Melina, thank you. What an honor to come back. I appreciate you shining your spotlight metaphorically onto me and my new book.

Absolutely. I am so, so delighted. Anytime I get to engage with you and to interact, I I love your energy which was fun because you talked about your energy a lot in the in this book. For everyone who doesn't yet know you, even though you are now a three Pete and I believe there are three of you now. So it's. There are very few that.

I think it was Tony Robbins, Brene Brown, and Scott Miller that are the three.

Yeah, right. I, you know, let's make it happen, you know. But for anyone who doesn't know you yet, can you share a little bit about yourself and your background?

I'm delighted. So I live in Salt Lake City with Utah with my wife Stephanie and our three young sons that are 8, 10, and 12. I just spent 27 years with the Franklin Covey Company, arguably the most trusted and influential leadership development firm in the world. Dr. Stephen Covey of the 7 Habits of Highly effective people hired me, was my mentor. I was the chief marketing officer and executive vice president there. Retired from the firm after 25 years, and now I'm an ambassador for their company. I host two podcasts for them, including what is now the world's largest weekly leadership podcast called On Leadership with Scott Miller. Let's see. I write a column for Inc. Magazine on leadership. I own a talent agency. So my day job is. I'm a literary speaking and talent agent. I've released six books. I have four, four more that are in the process of being written, edited, published, published, and released. And first and foremost, I'm a dad. I mentioned that. But my job mainly is to help my wife launch these three hoodlums into the world of being gentlemanly and respectful to others. And I take that role really seriously. This book, the ultimate guide to great mentorship, is very near and kind of dear to my career because I am the result of people who mentored me and believed in me more then sometimes I believed in myself. And so I'm excited to talk about it today.

Yeah, I really, really am as well. And I know that you have, you know, the Mess to Success series, which are the two other times you've been on the show. It's kind of funny too, so I know. So your first book was the Management Mess to leadership Success in that series. Right. And then you did the Marketing Mess to brand Success. And I thought it was kind of funny that it was the flip of my first two books where I did the marketing, you know what your customer wants and can't tell you first, and then the what your employees need and can't tell you came second. Kind of a flip flop there. And believe both with the same publisher on that one. And that's right. I think they both came out on the same day even. I think that both times I think they were really close. I think your, your, your launch dates were really close. To mine.

Well, I'm sure yours sold more than mine, so let's change the dollar.

Come on, come on. But with this. So you've been doing a mentoring space and had other books there, you know, featuring people, and then this. Now, being a guide for mentorship, I'm really excited to be able to talk about it because like I had said to you in our pre chat, everyone, I don't know that it's fair to say everyone wants to be a mentor. That's probably not true. But I think that most people like the idea of being able to impart wisdom on others and to be able to support people. And many people have. There are those, like, mentor programs at companies. And it's a good. It's a great idea. It's a wonderful thing. And people have no idea what they're supposed to do. There's no real guide to how this works. And you just sort of say, oh, you know, mentor them. But, like, what does that even mean? And how often do people inadvertently do more harm than good? And so I love that this guide is a really strategic approach to be looking at these 13, 14 types of mentors. So I think it's really helpful for so many people that are going to be better mentored because of it. Can you share a little bit about kind of how you got here?

I'm delighted with that setup because it's actually exactly why I wrote the book. I wasn't planning on writing a book on mentorship. I'd written two books, as you know, with Harper Collins, called Master Mentors, where I shine a spotlight on 30 of my favorite guests every year. And it's sort of a Chicken Soup for the Soul compilation series called Master Mentors. Well, Harper Collins came to me and asked me if I wanted to write a book on mentoring. They thought there was a big opportunity for a mentorship book. And I kind of hemmed and hawed and said, what an honor. Thanks for approaching me. Let me think about it. And then, literally the very next week, a friend of mine called me and said, hey, I've been paired with someone in my company as part of our mentor program, and I'm not quite sure how to help them. Will you jump on a call with me? With them? I'm thinking, yes, but you're their mentor. But what's fascinating is here was the dynamic, and gender is immaterial. You had a guy in his 50s who was an expert at travel. He was the company's travel director. Right. He ran a large division with travel agents. And if you Want to know what the best room is in Abu Dhabi? He will book it for you. Or what seat to sit on on Singapore airlines for an 18 hour flight. This guy is a savant when it comes to travel. And he was paired quite serendipitously with a young female in her twenties that was in marketing. Now both of them were very competent, but he had no idea how to mentor her on a career. And so it really made me realize, you know, he didn't need to know what to talk about, he just kind of needed to know how to talk about that. And so I thought that's what I want. I think you're right. I think the majority of people would love to be a mentor. And many people are informally and formally. About 80% of the Fortune 500 have mentorship programs, not to mention the Fortune 5000, the Inc 5000, the Russell 2000. Mentorship is a key part of companies and their retention plans. Right. And their employee development plans. But most people don't know what to do. In fact, oftentimes because you're a great leader does not mean you're a great mentor. The skills don't always translate. I can talk about that more. So I wrote this book to help people like this gentleman who was this very competent, sophisticated travel business leader coach this younger woman, again, gender immaterial on a marketing career. Because these are the 13 roles that I think all mentors can play. And when you have a working knowledge of them, not a mastery working knowledge, you're going to ask better questions, you're going to be more patient, you're going to be more thoughtful, you're going to not jump the gun on igniting this idea versus shutting down that idea or, or worse, living vicariously through your mentor and saying, well, if I were you, I would do this. No, you're not them. They're them and you are they, you are you and they're separate. So I'd love to get into some of the roles if you'd like. But that's exactly why I wrote the book.

Yeah, definitely want to get into the roles that are here. It was, it was fun and interesting to read. So for one, for everyone, it reads at a very quick clip. It gives you what you need and it's very much something that is referenceable, very usable at work. And I know, you know, from reading I understand there will be, you know, supportive like cards that you can get. And I know from looking at the website that goes along with it, there's a lot of really great information, including videos and You've got QR codes, really, really supportive for people. And I think it was important too. One of the points that I think people don't realize and you talked about that being more of an informal mentor for people. But you have a story from one of the videos that was on the site and I forget the name of the person, but it was a radio host that you say was like one of your mentors and he will never know because he has since passed away. But I think that informal mentorship is really important and that you can be supporting and helping people even if they don't know to ask for it.

That's right. I think most people really narrowly define mentorship as your company matched you with someone from the C suite and you'll talk every other Friday for an hour and then you'll be done and you'll celebrate and all will be good. Well, by the way, if that is offered to you, take advantage of that.

Yes, do that.

Mentorship. Do that. But the video you're referencing is the video on my website, greatmentorship.com lots of resources there, a certification program that companies can engage in and also a mentor guide. But the gentleman's name was Bruce Williams. And Bruce Williams really brought talk radio to America long before Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh or name your political favorite or Dave Ramsey or your, your nemesis, whatever might be your choice there. There was a guy in the 80s that had a program called the Bruce Williams show and every Monday through Friday from 6 to 9pm Eastern time, he had a program that was basically dispensing great business advice. He was a small town mayor and an entrepreneur. What is a credit score? How do you have a mortgage? How do you qualify for a mortgage? What do you do with an inheritance? How do you bounce back from a bankruptcy? How do you open a business up? Should you use an attorney? What is title insurance? And you know where most of my peers in junior high school were listening to pop music and Cyndi Lauper and you do. Nerd alert. I was listening to Bruce Williams three hours a night, five days a week for like eight years. But what it did was it launched me into college with this insane business acumen around personal finance and corporate finance and how to read a P and L and how companies are structured. And Bruce Williams died never even knowing Scott Miller was alive. He was the biggest mentor to me in life. And so I share the story. Thank you for the setup to say I think you can redefine what mentorship looks like, follow your favorite blog or your favorite podcaster, go to conferences that you have the favorite speaker and make them your mentor and then reach out and tell them that they are whether they know it or not or agreed to it or not, whether you know it or not. You've been mentoring me for the last six years as I read all of your articles. Seth Godin or Dan Pinker, Liz Wiseman or Sudan Cain or Kim Scott or whoever your favorite thought leader is. Don't just box in mentorship as the person that your company has aligned you with or for that matter even the expert in the industry. I share lots of times that if I want to know how to have a 40 year marriage, I don't go to the guy who's had a 50 year marriage. I go to the guy that's had five marriages because I probably cannot replicate the patience and the personality of the 50 year married guy. I go to the guy that made tons of mistakes so I can learn from his lessons. And if I want to build a million dollar business, I don't go to the Millionaire, I go to the Galaxy had five bankruptcies. Because again, I love to go after experts. But my point is redefine your mindset of what mentorship has to look like.

Oh for sure. Well, and in that piece there I am going to definitely link to the episode I did on Survivorship Bias because that's where we look and say like well, all successful CEOs get up at 4am and while some people do get up at 4am every day and are very successful, there are which is something in case you didn't pick up on that audience, that's something that Scott talks about in the book. But you, you have plenty of people that don't and are successful and you have plenty of people that get up at 4am and are not successful CEOs. Right. But we, we tend to forget and miss some of those things that like missing what's missing. So I will definitely link to, to that one and I would love on that note. Well, actually one thing I do want to say is I think that really highlighted for me so I have people from all over the world who reach out to me and have for years and want to ask me questions and get my take on something and we'll say I know you didn't write this to help me with give people parenting advice but I want you to know that this story helped me. That was something I had a conversation with someone yesterday right. That said that and people that will like have gone and changed their careers because of listening to the podcast and finding behavioral economics and someone who moved to Israel to go start a master's program in behavioral economics because they found the show and I had a conversation with them and it changed a whole bunch of stuff. And so it's been cool, you know, reading through the book, it's like, oh, this is kind of like, okay, I can see where I've been the visionary. I know I'm always the questioner. I can see where I've been, you know, the igniter or what, you know, these sorts of things as you go. And so it's fun to read through the way that you have broken those down and see that we can be all of them often. And having an awareness that they exist gives this opportunity to really use. I'll use some of my behavioral language for everyone who's listening. Like, we can use our focusing illusion for good here where we can be looking at, you know, I really think they need a visionary right now. And I'm going to read that chapter before this upcoming session. Right. I. I think that this is something that I'm going to be on the lookout for. They need support or, hey, like they just need that spark of something. So I'm going to revisit that. Or the flight. The flagger. That's one that was. That would be the hardest for me, I will say, but I will let you talk about them now.

Well, so you're absolutely right. It's situational. Right. I think some people think they might be good at one and they might actually need some improvement on it. There are 13 roles. When my reader committee read them, they all passed out. And then when they came to, they said, scott, you cannot have 13 rolls, it's too many. After all, you made the guy that wrote the seven habits famous. Hello, seven. And so I indulged them and brought it from 15 down to 13. Actually, it was 15 with a bonus 14th.

Just saying.

With a bonus one that I might not talk about unless you force me. Anyway. There are 13. The revealer, the Boundary Setter, the Absorber, the Questioner, the Challenger, the Validator, the Navigator, the Visionary, the Flagger, the Distiller, the Activator, the Connector, and the Closer. Those are the 13 that make up this book, the Ultimate Guide to Great Mentorship. You won't use all these roles when you mentor. Number one isn't for only session one, and number seven isn't for session seven. Although one in the last one make obvious sense, right? The Closer is the end and the Revealer I can talk about, but I really felt like these are roles that you need to know about, just like you said. You know what? Maybe now I should be in the absorber role, a good listener, or maybe I should move to the validator role. Or you know what? Right now, in this moment of opportunity, I'm going to pause and be the validator or be the igniter, which is a very powerful role that should be used judiciously. The igniter and usually comes later in the process. As you mentioned, the book is fast, easy and breezy. My goal for the book was just to build an awareness in people that as a mentor you play different roles. Sometimes you play three roles in one call. Sometimes you don't play role 7 or 9 or 12 ever, depending upon the situation of your mentee. But I'm delighted that the roles are resonating with you and you can see that you're better at some and maybe more challenging with others.

Yeah, for sure. And I think it's just having that framework for people to give them some confidence in being able to support others in a way that's going to be helpful for everyone. Because there I'm. I've always been a big fan of mentorship and I think it is as valuable, sometimes more valuable for the mentor as it is for the mentee.

Right.

You. We get like, look, even just from the brain chemical aspect of the what, we're able to build a lot of that social connection we want and need to be feeling validated. Not that it's about you in this way, but there is value in that. When you do it well and you get to see, you know, all the little seeds that go off and do even more amazing things than you ever would have thought. And you don't get to claim all of the, you know, fame for it, but it's really cool to see what can happen when you're just a little bit thoughtful, a little bit helpful. I think it can change so much. So, of course, feel free to expand on that thought and then, yeah, go from there.

And I write about that. Right. I write about in the 13th rule, which is the closer I talk about. I actually prescribe or suggest a six step closing process. I should call it Scott's Six Step Closing Problem.

Yeah.

Which I think is a little arrogant. But one of the things I write about when you close out your mentor session, which you should. Right. Is you should close it out to set. Send people on their way. Right. To maybe set boundaries still. Hey, it's been nice working with you for eight sessions. We're done. Good Luck. Call me in a year. But I write about how it's important as the mentor to identify and name what it is. You've also taken away what you've learned from your mentee. It's not a one way street. No doubt you're going to learn some characteristics that your mentee exhibits, whether it's excitement or energy or focus or frivolity or sequence or the ability to synthesize. You should name that so that your mentee knows that you also as the mentor are taking away benefit from this and you know it yourself, right. That you actually here's a good example. I mentor someone that is very different than I am. PhD, African American female and intellectually would eat my lunch and she's very deliberate and calm and thoughtful. As you can tell. I'm impetuous, I'm impulsive, I am, you know, all over the place. And I really enjoy talking with her because she reminds me that sometimes slower is better, sometimes less is more. And I really admire how she has brought that to bear as a strength. And I leave at least for the next hour or two on my next phone calls after her, more measured, more gathered, more deliberate, less impetuous. And there's I always leave these mentoring calls taking away something about how I can improve even if it's with I'm mentoring a 20 something.

Yeah, I will say I laughed aloud often with the book, which is pretty common with your books and I appreciate that. But I know the little there are little quips. You are also a master of the self deprecating humor. But it's just a little bit and I know it, but they always make.

Me laugh a little bit self deprecating, a lot of arrogant, a little self deprecating.

You know, it's a good balance, right?

Not according to my wife, but please keep going.

So no, I but I remember in that way you're saying I always leave those calls and I'm much more thoughtful, at least for a few minutes and then I'm off again.

Probably true. Right. I mean, you know, I'm at least I'm self aware that it lasts a couple of minutes, not a couple of days. Right.

And I do think it was really helpful that each chapter has how it relates to you in your own life and that sometimes it's how you had been a mentor and done something, how you had had a mentor that had done something. Sometimes it's showing how it showed up really bad and could go wrong and sometimes it's how it went well, but it was just a relatable story. A little tidbit to help you really see it in action and how it could impact someone. As you look at the 13 roles, is there one that you are particularly excited to talk about?

Oh, I'm glad you asked.

Aha.

So obviously I'm excited about all of them because I called them down carefully. Now, some of them, some of them have some similarities. I release the reader to say, hey, you might find a couple of these have some overlap. Great. Move on, don't sue me. But, but I do think rule number six, I call the validator. And this is one that I'm passionate about, perhaps more than any of them, is because you have a chance as a mentor to be a transition figure for your mentee. Like literally transition them out of a certain mindset into a more effective mindset or to validate their genius, their, their, their skill, their an art. I don't know anybody that's been overvalidated in their life. I hear there's these participation ribbons that went around for four or five years. I never got one as a kid. Maybe I missed that demographic. But as I look back in my own life, when someone has validated something I do well, a talent I have, it is seared into my memory, into my consciousness, into my confidence. And I can, I can think of two. But one of them I'm going to share, if you don't mind. As you know from reading my books, I've had a lifelong speech impediment. I'm a stutterer. I have a quite debilitating stutter. Not as debilitating as some people with a stutter, but it's been an affliction that I've had for my entire life. I've spent decades in speech pathology and speech therapy. I've had braces three times and invisalign twice and headgear and everything. I have two speech coaches. I have a slur, I have a lisp, I have a stutter. And there's about 60 words or so I cannot say in public. And it triples in the wintertime. The cold weather exacerbates my stutter substantially. I don't stutter a lot in public as much anymore because I've built a vocabulary that allows me to find words to replace those words that I know I cannot say. And stuttering is a very unique, interesting affliction. Some of its physiological, some of it's neurological, some may be sociological. You know, there's lots of different reasons why people stutter. But here's my story. Lifelong stutter lifelong speech impediment. I'm living in Orlando, Florida, where I was born and raised. And one day when I was in my late teens, 17, 18 years old, a woman came into the bakery and asked me for directions. Happened to be a tourist. It was central Florida, and she was from the Middle east, spoke flawless English. She happened to be Israeli, and as you know, most Israelis speak both Hebrew and. Or Yiddish and English. She asked me for directions to some place like a hair salon about a mile down the road. You know, travel down here, turn right there, turn left there. And she. After I gave her these instructions, she looked at me and she's. Now, mind you, this was 38 years ago. She said to me, you are a remarkable communicator. You have such an amazing command of your language. This is going to take you far in life. And she took her almond croissant and her peppermint tea, I remember, and she left. This woman validated me. She told me that I was an excellent communicator. No one in my entire life had ever said this. I went on to become a pretty popular iHeartRadio host and host, two podcasts. And I speak for a living. I use that story because as a mentor, you have a chance to validate your mentee, and you should do it with great care and judiciousness. Use the pause. Melina, I'd like to take a pause for a moment. I love what we're talking about right now, but I want to pause, and I just want you to listen to me for the next minute. Please don't say anything. Just listen. Melina, you are a great synthesizer. Your ability to take complex, nebulous, amorphous issues and problems and, like, boil them down. This is a talent you have, Melina. This is a genius you have, Melina. This is an art. And I don't know how exactly you get the point, right? I'm being very specific. I'm using specific words. I'm asking her just to listen to me. And Melina, I don't want you to dispute it or deny or deflect it. I want you to own it. And now what Melina is going to do is, Melina, like, all of us have been beaten down in life, right? With either this not happening or this not going our way. Molina is going to take that validation and metaphorically put it into her backpack, and she's going to carry it with her for a day, a year, or a lifetime and retrieve it when she needs it. Here's the end of the story. One of My podcast episodes went viral. That's not a word I ever use on YouTube a few months ago had several hundred thousand views in a matter of a day and thousands of comments. Unfortunately, I left the comment section on in YouTube. And so by the thousands, by the hundreds of thousands people watched it. By the thousands people took me down on what a poor communicator I was. Right? I should have taken my life from all of the vitriol and hate that came. But it's okay because 37 years ago, an Israeli tourist told me I was a powerful communicator and it was my superpower and I retrieved it. Watching and laughing at all of these people hate me. While my 12 year old son and I read them all and laughed about them. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I probably do that. That's kind of mean. That's kind of funny. That's more about you than it is me. We went through all of them and laughed and cried and joy. Because I know I'm a powerful communicator whether I have a stutter or not. And long story, to answer your question, I think the validator is the one that should be used with great care. Do not validate them for showing up on time. Do not validate them for taking notes. Name their genius and you will give your mentee lifelong courage to retrieve it when they need it.

I love that expansion on what was in the book, you know, and thank you for sharing your story in more detail. I think that's really helpful for people to see that. You know, it's easy to be told like, this is you and this is what you are. Right? Like you have this. I actually was failing, which, like never and failing for me. I think I was getting a C minus. Right. In high school.

You mean you were excelling in my language.

Right? Yeah, no, so I was. I had a C minus or something in AP English and I came in early every day. I was asking the teacher everything I possibly could to try to do better because I've always been a really good student and that matters to me. And she told me I was just a bad writer and there was nothing I could do about it.

Which, sorry.

So I know, edit that out or.

Keep it in, I don't care.

Put it back here.

And it started with a W, not a B. I said it's very good.

Right? Yeah. Monster. I know. I, you know, I was in 11th grade or 10th grade.

You hear these stories all the time about teachers or counselors or principals that imprint on their Students what they'll never going to be, and then they go on to be that and be the best in the world. Teachers, mentors, leaders, be careful.

Right?

Choose your words wisely. People are listening to you. And unfortunately, people believe you.

Right. Because you've been teaching people for a really long time. And I think it was incredibly fortunate. So I chose to drop the class. And it was at a point where I had the option and like, you don't need ap. I could go just to the.

The regular English class. You were in my class with me. Right. You came down to my level. But I had a C minus in and my parents were overjoyed at my C minus.

So I get into the class and then that teacher had said what a. What a great writer I was. And it was, I think, quick enough after the fact. And it was just this stupid format that they wanted for AP that is not right and whatever, you know, but like that moment meant something. And then you want to say, hey, Mrs. Whatever your name is, like, would like you like. Let me tell you about my book that just got first place in the International Book Awards.

Can I sign it for you? Right, Exactly. Yes.

Anyway, so remember that was a fun tangent therapy podcast. Not your body, but the point being that the person who said the thing probably doesn't even know. Like, they don't remember either on the good and the bad often. Right. And that that woman that came in and got her almond croissant and her peppermint tea, like it was just a thing that she happened to say and doesn't know how much it changed that trajectory of your whole life. And those kind and thoughtful things that you can say make a really big difference. I'm also going to put in the episode in the show notes with Nick Epley, who was talking about this power of connection and questions that we can be asking of other people that I think really complements this very well. So the validator important role. Do you want to share another one that you think is helpful?

Sure. Let's go to your favorite, the flagger. And here, here's why I put the flag in. By the way, challenge five is, or rather rule five is the challenger. This is a person that pushes back, they steer. They say, you know, let's talk more about that. Are you sure those are facts? Because a lot of us confuse our opinions and feelings of facts, and they're not the same. That's the challenger. Role five.

I can do that one. That I can do that.

You're good at that. Okay. You're good at that. The flagger is role nine and the flagger is sort of the challenger on steroids. Right. This is the flagger that says, whoa, timeout. Yeah, that's actually illegal. You may not know that. I'm not saying you're not ethical. I'm saying that's illegal or that's not how it works in a public company.

Update. If something were illegal and I heard it, I could say it. Continue.

There you go. Okay, thank you for updating. But I do think it's having the courage to exercise maybe an unnatural level of pushback, of challenge to say, hey, kind of stop you right there. There has to be more to that story. There's no way that person did that without something going on. Do you want to take a few minutes to maybe unpack that? I'm not your therapist, not your counselor, but that just sounds like we need to turn off the car metaphorically and pull the keys out and we need to go for a walk because I don't know why you believe that, but that's actually not the way the import rules work with the world trade whatever. Right. Or I just, it's, it's, it's being, it's being that Jiminy Cricket that says, I want to challenge your paradigm on this because I don't think it's serving you well and I don't want to damage or impact your self esteem or your self confidence in any way other than to tell you I think it's a self defeating mindset. I think that's actually not the way this works. I want to tell you, educate you on how it does work or how I think you could think about it. So the flagger is the person who's really kind of stopping in the tracks and saying, timeout, stop, we gotta talk. It can't happen every four hours, it can't happen every session. It can't happen all the time. You'll never get anything done. Right. But I do think there's the well timed flagger and you may never use this. You may be working with a, a very mature, even if more junior mentee that has good thought processes and has got a healthy mindset and is well educated, asks good questions. This is one that you might never use, but you should be willing to use it when vital.

Yeah, I, I appreciate how you explain that there. And I think knowing. So if you're not prepared for it and the moment comes and you go, whoa, that's weird. But like, then you have that moment of like, is it my responsibility to say something and as you're kind of spiraling on what you might say in the moment, then it's gone, right? They started talking about something else. You got distracted, time went away. And you know, then you know what, tomorrow or a month from now, you say, hey, remember that thing you said last month? Right. That's weird. It's hard to do something then. And then you're like too deep in it and feels really weird to do.

Anything could be lost too. I think it's really showing integrity in the moment of choice. Most of the chapters in this book, the roles I give some prescriptive language or questions to ask or things to say. And in this chapter with the flagger, I actually give you seven different examples of how you could delicately, diplomatically, but with courage, flag something out without offending the person or making them feel like you're questioning their integrity, but just saying in a very clear but diplomatic way, you know, that doesn't sound right. Can we talk more about that and maybe how to pivot in a different direction? One of the things I'm proudest of about the book is that I do give a lot of prescriptive ways to say things, ask things, and do things for people who may not have had a career. Like I've had three decades in leadership. Right. I don't know anything about AI. I know nothing about Six Sigma. I'm learning about ChatGPT, but when it comes to having diplomatic and high courage conversations, 30 years has taught me some things and I hope the readers find it valuable, if nothing less, from maybe how to approach an awkward topic or recognize when something is going off track and how to bring it back on track.

Right? Yeah, I think that, you know, building on that, I think the boundary, setting the, you know, is one.

Oh, good.

You agree, right? Yeah, I think it leads to, you know, early on, setting those boundaries. And even where you say like mentor relationship kind of feels like we're like signing a contract in blood and you can call on me for the rest of time and I'm like stuck with you. Right? So I love that, you know, you have the closer at the end and like you said, it's maybe it's eight sessions or whatever it is, but setting that, having a path, having a plan. Let's talk boundaries.

I love that you pitched that up. Thank you. You can tell I wrote this book. Some people don't write their books and that's okay. But I definitely wrote this. This is what I think mentors neglect the most.

Oh, yeah.

Number two role. Number two is the boundary Setter. And that is a high courage conversation that every mentor needs to lead. And if you don't mind, can I role play again with you? Of course, Melina. Oh, I'm so excited about our mentoring journey. I'm going to learn a lot from you. I know, and I hope you learn a thing or two from me. No doubt there'll be some personality clashes or we may use words that are different. Welcome to being human. I'm looking forward to wrestling those to the ground quick and moving on. I do think it's important, though, for maybe the next three or four minutes that we have what will probably be an uncomfortable conversation, but just for three or four minutes and we'll get back to on track. But in this first session of ours, I want to make sure that both of us have a chance to set some boundaries so that we don't find ourselves in an awkward, uncomfortable, embarrassing situation of asking each other to do something that we don't feel comfortable doing. We know that most conflict in life comes from either mismatched or unfulfilled expectations. So I'd like to set a couple of boundaries with you up front and invite you to maybe set some with me if you have some. And I only have two or three. One is, I want to make sure that, you know, I'm not qualified to be a therapist, a coach, a counselor. Those people have gone to school, there's had certificates. I obviously, in my career have had a lot of interpersonal issues at being a leader, resolving them. And so if my background is helpful, I'll do that. But I'm not comfortable probably playing roles in that realm that I'm not qualified to. I also want to make sure that as we explore your journey, that you don't ask me to play a role that I'm not comfortable for when it comes to, you know, making an investment in your business or being your ally or your champion, because those aren't the roles I'm comfortable playing. I don't think a mentor is automatically someone's ally or sponsor or champion. And thirdly, I'm going to remind you that one of my most valuable assets beyond my soul and reputation is my network. And I actually guard that quite jealously. Not. Not scarcely, but jealously. And I'm going to ask that, you know, you be really thoughtful and not ask me to introduce you to people that may be in my network, because I typically don't do that. Now, off the record, I hope my mentee earns their way into wanting me to be their champion, their sponsor. Their ally. I hope my mentee earns their way into being a business I want to invest in. Or had me open my metaphorical Rolodex. Google it if you're under the age of 40. But I want to set those boundaries clear up front so that I then am in charge of if I want to lower them. Right. Good fences make good neighbors, and so you might choose to not have that be the out of the gate. Welcome, Melinda. Melina. Nice to meet you. First, let me set some boundaries. No, not. Not that. Right. You got to find the right time, the right tone, the right inflection, the right levity. I like the idea of saying, hey, I want to have a bit of an uncomfortable conversation for just three or four minutes, and then we'll actually get back to business at hand. By the way, Melina, now that I have stated some of my boundaries, maybe you have some too. I'm honored to hear them and respect them as well. I just want to make sure that you don't ever find yourself crossing my boundary and making it uncomfortable for me to say no, because that could be awkward for both of us. Now, not everyone agrees with this. I have some mentors that take delight doing speed mentoring at universities, and they say, oh, I met this person in four minutes. I hooked them up with my mortgage broker or my corporate attorney. I'm like, I would never do that. Never. Because your reputation is also the people you keep company with and who you recommend. And people have to earn their way into my network. I think I'm a very abundant networker, but not after two meetings or three minutes. And so I think it's important that mentors rise to the occasion and set those boundaries and have thought through them. You'll notice that my website, greatmentorship.com I actually offer a mentor kit that has a mentor journal where you actually can identify what your boundaries are and commitments and such and move them forward. Organizations provide them to their mentors and their programs. It's important to have thought through your boundaries. Not 30 things you won't do, but, you know, what are the two or three things that you want to make sure your mentee doesn't find themselves stepping in a minefield on?

Yeah, I think that's so important, and I don't think it's an uncomfortable thing at all. I appreciate that for you, if having that setup just feels right, and I think for anybody else, maybe it doesn't, and we don't need to prime people like that all the time, but I think it is like you can figure out what works for you. And if that's what helps you have the conversation, then do that.

It's your point. It's all situational. Right. Depending upon what you know about your mentee and their self esteem and. And their traumas or their dramas, you may have that conversation, you know, later in. But it's important to have it in a way that works both for you and your mentee.

Yeah, for sure. Well, you've mentioned the, the website greatmentorship.com and what are the other great paths for people to find and connect with you? We will of course be putting things in the show notes, but.

Well, thanks. I appreciate that.

Yeah.

So I built a robust site, lots of videos and tools. @greatmentorship.com you can obviously visit scottjeffreymiller.com multiple times a day because you'll never get your fill of me, my wife is by passing out in the hallway right now. Good grief, Miller. And I would love to have you connect to me. I'm on every social platform. TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn. Love to have you follow me. My social is unconventionally fun. I post as much personal stuff on LinkedIn as I do as I do professional stuff. But I appreciate the time today. Melinda, thanks for giving me the opportunity to talk about my book.

Of course. Thank you so much for joining me again and in the world of telling people when they've been your mentor, whether they know it or not. I want to say, Scott, thank you for being a mentor to me.

Oh, that's sweet of you.

You've meant a lot and I think you've been. I know you. I know you know, you've been a connector for me for sure. And you know, some of those other, I would say an igniter as well. You've.

Thank you.

It's been a real impact on my life and my business and my career and I appreciate you.

Thank you for saying that.

Of course. And thanks everyone for being here. We'll see you next time. Thank you again to Scott Miller for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I always love talking with Scott and I'm so honored that he opened up a bit today about a story from early on in his life and to share about his stutter and how that has shaped his approach to work and mentorship. I think it is so interesting to reflect on the term mentor and what it means in our lives. I know there are people who have been influential to me in the past and that I may have considered them a mentor, but I've shied away from using that term since they hadn't agreed to formally be my mentor. Like I didn't want to put that responsibility on them without asking or something. But I personally like Scott's view on this. Anyone and any interaction can be one of mentorship, whether the mentor realizes it or not. A random moment or bit of serendipity can completely change the course of your life. And that spark when it's a person can be considered a mentor to you. And whether you share it with them or not doesn't really matter. Though if you ever get the chance to share that with someone, I'm guessing they would really love to hear it. I don't know that there are many people out there who would recoil at being told that they influence someone else's life for the better, you know. So in my opinion, tell them. Just like I did with Scott today. He really has been a mentor to me as someone who has been so kind to me in the past, provided feedback and advice, and even introduced me to my publisher, Mango. Take a moment now to reflect on the big moments in your life, or even small ones that were impactful. Who was part of that? Were they a mentor? Have you ever told them? If you can I say do it. And please do come share it with Scott and I on social media. You can find me as the Brainy Biz pretty much everywhere. And he is Scott Jeffrey Miller on Instagram and Scott Miller J1 on Twitter. Links to all those in the show notes, along with links to all those related past episodes and books, including the Ultimate Guide to Great Mentorship and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 307 and thank you again to Scott Miller for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You won't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit the Brainy business dot com.