313. Crafting Persuasive Presentations: Learn How to Captivate Your Audience with Troy Andrews' Storytelling Strategies

Welcome to episode 313 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Troy Andrews, author of the new book Bridges and Barriers. Ready? Let's get started. You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer. Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I am joined by Troy Andrews, author of Bridges and Practical Psychology for Persuasive Presentations and The owner of presentationpersuasion.com Troy applies behavioral science, behavioral economics, and persuasion theory to business and specifically in giving better presentations, something you longtime listeners know is near and dear to my heart. And even if you've just been here this summer, you know I've been talking all about storytelling and presentations. I love this stuff. Troy has a fascinating background. He worked in the construction industry in Brooklyn, New York for over 16 years. In project management, he leveraged the insights he gleaned from using communication to motivate and influence his team and fuel a massive life change. In 2008, where he moved to the other side of the world, to Shanghai, China and began a career as an executive presentation coach, which he's been doing now for the last 16 years. He has infused his passion for behavioral economics and behavioral science into his work on presentations and I always love reading his LinkedIn posts. So when I heard about his new book, I knew it would be chock full of great insights for everyone listening. And I was right. I can't wait to have Troy share a few of those great insights with you here today. Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for everything, including related past episodes, links to articles and books including Bridges and Barriers, and so much more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 313. Now let's jump right in. Troy Andrews, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Thank you, Melina. So nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I'm super excited to chat with you. So much that we've spent 20 minutes chatting before it's time to do the official thing. And I know I will have introduced you leading into this, but for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and Your background?

Yeah. So basically, I'm a trainer coach for presentations, based in Shanghai, China. I've been here since 2008. Moved from New York, and before that I was in Brooklyn for about 16 years, where I worked in the construction industry.

Yeah. And an interesting leap. Perhaps I didn't get a ton of the background, but how did you make this jump from so construction to helping people with presentations? How'd that happen?

Yeah. So Basically, for the 16 years I was in construction, I always really paid attention to communication because I went from being a laborer to doing project management. So I kind of communicated, you know, all levels, low levels, then going up, then when I was up, going down and across. And it just really became quite apparent that, you know, just by being able to communicate properly could really change your whole environment. So communication was a big interest of mine. 2008, financial crisis. Some of the projects that we were working on got canceled or postponed. They were talking about maybe relocating me to a different area. And I said, you know what? It's time for a change. So I was learning Chinese at the time. I had some Chinese friends in Brooklyn, Chinatown. So I thought, you know what? Why not make a big change and do something interesting? So came to China, and then I pretty much instantly got into the training field and different communication aspects, but I kind of niched down into presentations.

Yeah, interesting. And I think it's. So languages are one of those things that. And I think the audience has heard me say this a few times, but, like, I really wish, like, my dream, when people ask what your superpower, like, if you could have anyone, what would you want it to be? And mine is like, I wish I could speak, like, perfectly speak and write every language and read, you know, all of them. To be able to communicate perfectly with everyone in their own language. That is the dream. And I am terrible at learning languages. I have too much of a grasp on English language, I guess, and I just am really bad at learning any other one.

I think there's. I think there's an app for that. I don't know.

I know. I don't trust it would translate it quite right. Yeah. So I bow down to you and your language skills, because that's not a strength of mine, sadly. So you got into training, like you said, and then presentations and what I think is really interesting. And in going through your new book, you do a nice job of sharing this balance. Right. Because when people think about a presentation, you think about. I think more of what I do most often. Right. So the keynote. Right. You're doing the big presentation, we think about those type of talks and tend to forget about the pitch. To ask for more budget or to ask for an FTE or the presentation to your employees to get them to adopt a new process or system that exists. Or, you know, we're doing presentations all the time, but people kind of forget that and think like, oh, well, I don't need to think about presentations because I. I never want to go get up on a stage.

Yeah. One of the things that I try to focus on is a lot of my clients, I found, were just focused on, okay, I need to tell the audience this or inform them. And that's really one of the focuses that I try to get people like, no, you can actually have an opportunity to change something. It's either the way you're perceived by them. Like, and then I, in the book, I talk about, you know, perception. You know, think of an adjective or a noun that you would like to be known for, and then you can kind of funnel all your ideas into that so that by the time you're done, they go, oh, wow. Molina is very logical or, you know, competent or trustworthy or whatever it is you want. So even if you're just doing, you know, reporting this is just a weekly report, you can still be changing something about their perception of you. If not trying to move forward some agenda or some point that you would like to push forward.

Well, and those, like you're saying there, those ongoing meetings, like it's the weekly budget meeting or whatnot, but you potentially don't want to do the same thing you're doing for the rest of time. And so, you know, what is it that you can do or say or put into a slide or whatever it is to. To show that you actually are this thing that you want to be recognized for in the future for whatever that next job role is. Right. You can be laying that groundwork months or years in advance so that you become the obvious choice when something comes available.

Yeah, and that's. That's such a great point because a lot of times we think of just the presentation that we're giving instead of the whole scope of your career and all the presentations and what they're leading to. So, you know, I'm a big fan of Cialdini. As we were talking about, as. As are you. So pre suasion is. Is not, you know, what we're doing in the pitch so much. It's how we set it up. So I hope that came through in the book. But I. I really tried to Focus on. There's a lot of things we can do in between. It's. There's no magic pitch. I know there's a lot of books about, like, you know, if you use this word, people will automatically agree with you. And that, of course, that. That would be amazing. That would be a superpower. But, yeah.

Yeah. That is not true. Right. So if you. Whatever those are, if you see those books or those claims on Instagram or YouTube or whatever it is, just know that it's wrong. Walk away. And Nothing is true 100% of the time, just right.

Unless it's like maybe like an expression or an. It takes something at a different angle. Like, I was listening to your podcast with Zoe Chance, who I'm also a big fan of, and you know her magic question. Right. It's not just the words that do it. It's the whole angle, psychological angle, and how it sets up your relationship and it's more collaborative and that kind of thing definitely makes a difference. Yeah, I've tried that many times. It works, right?

Yeah. And I'm sure, as with anything, though, there's the, you know, if you try the. What would it take? And you do it wrong or, you know, just might not land right, you know, saying that it. It's magic, but it does. You know, not everything works all the time, but. So you did mention a little bit Cialdini and. And like you said, you have the seven principles from Influence really heavily focused on within your book. But we haven't talked a ton about Pre suasion actually on the show, even when. When he was on, you know, we were focusing on the new version of Influence. So what are some of the things like with your clients when you look at that pre suasion that you recommend for them? Things to be looking at.

Yeah. So one. One thing I'm a big proponent of is, is audience analysis, which is every presentation trainer will tell you that. But I really try to go in a little deeper than I think most people that. At least that I've heard. So I call it an audience analysis, due diligence, deep dive, where you just really, really get in there, find out their hob, their likes, their dislikes, their politics. And I have so many examples where I can think of where just finding out something about someone, you can really steer the conversation and then get them into a place where it kind of opens up. An example that I always like. I don't think it's in the book is I had this sales call for a big company in Japan and I was Trying to do, like, a big coaching contract. So I looked up the guy on LinkedIn. Not a lot of information there. Looked him up a few spots, found that he had, like, a personal blog. And in the blog it said, I love poetry and craft beer. I don't know a lot about poetry, but I know more than I should about craft beer. So I. I called my friend in Tokyo and I said, hey, what were the places we went to? So he gave me all the breweries, the different beers we had. So when I was talking to him in kind of like, we had a pre call before all the other people came in. He's like, okay. He was very stiff and it was a British guy and he's just, okay, thank you for joining. The other colleagues will be along. They're stuck in a meeting still, so just please be patient. I'm like, oh, yeah, no problem, no problem. Hey, how's it going with lockdown there? Because they had a lockdown. And he's like, oh, it's very terrible. We can't get out, we can't do anything. So I was just like, yeah, we had that here in Shanghai too. But, you know, fortunately, it's. It's over now. But I just remember, man, I can't wait to get out and just grab a pint. And his face changed, his disposition, his British accent came out, and he's just like, oh, mate, I would kill for a pint. And I was just like, yeah, I know. And you have all these great breweries, like Ho Chino. And I started naming all the ones and this is my favorite beer. He's like, mine too. He's like, you come to Tokyo, we get a pint. And after that, the conversation was, like, smooth. And after we signed the contract and we were just talking, I told him about that and he's just like, ooh, that's good, that's good. And that's something that I try to push with persuasion. And I think we were talking about this before the actual call, making sure that as trainers, we know what we're going to get pushback on, what things that we think are true, but we know someone's going to go, that wouldn't work, or, I don't feel good doing that. And then we have to, like, talk them into it. So I think that's one of the things. A lot of times, the line between persuasion and manipulation is always a sketchy one. But with this, I found that when you actually do your homework on someone, you look up their background or something, and you can drop that in. Even if you tell them about it, they don't think, oh, that's creepy. They're like, okay, well done, well done. You know.

Right. Well. And that's like, I think again, it's, you know, a tone or explaining why and it's showing that you cared enough to be thoughtful to look those things up and find a genuine connection. You know, the principle of liking. Right. That I was thoughtful to see what mattered to you. I saw that we both liked this thing and so we were able to talk about it. And yeah, it. It helped. But, you know, it's not like, I don't know, whatever the. I went into the. My friend who works at the FBI or whatever and had someone look you up or draw draws line. Right. That's. Or like way past whatever the line would be. So, yeah, I think that is so helpful. And I love super late in the book and. But we're just going to have a conversation about all the things that I. Definitely not all the things I liked in the book because we don't have time for that. But I love Ben Franklin. Right. And so as far as the affinity goes on stuff, when you read a story, you're like, oh, I love that. Right. I love, I love referencing or any time where someone in their book references Harry Potter or on something like, yeah, were friends. Which brings that, you know, Zoe Chance back where she had her chapter nine and three quarters and with Ben Franklin and the principle of reciprocity and that where most people, when you think about reciprocity, only think about. And even then only really talk about giving first so someone will give back to you. And I just love that you bring up this point from Benjamin Franklin when talking about that. Can you share a little bit about this kind of insight of getting someone to do a favor for you and how that can make them like you more?

Yeah. So just the, the backstory for the. The Benjamin Franklin effect was that basically he was kind of a very political figure and he was supporting different political aspects. And he had this guy who was basically his opponent, his arch nemesis. The guy hated him, wouldn't look at him, wouldn't talk to him. And he said, it's my goal to win him over. And instead of, like you said, instead of, oh, here's a gift or here's something he found out, again, this is the audience analysis, due diligence, deep dive. He found out that the guy was a lover of rare books. And so he requested. I heard you had this book. That's amazing. It's so hard to Find and really kind of, you know, prop that up and then said, any chance I could borrow it? And the guy was kind of flattered and said, yeah, sure, you can borrow it. And then he read it in like a week, returned it with a very nice note, send it back. And he goes after that like a switch turned and the guy was like his, his best friend and they would talk about books and they would go on. Which, you know, there's a lot of principles of persuasion that fall in there. Right. So it's like, and so I try to have people do that. If they can find out what people are interested in, you know, can you find a common ground, is there something you can ask them for help for? And it becomes this like mentor, mentee relationship. That's the person has an investment in you and they're less likely to go against you or to hurt you because now they're on your team, as it were, for sure.

Yeah. The unity principle getting kind of activated there. And then just even as you were saying right then, it was making me think about vulnerability loops and how they can help with building trust. Right. So by making yourself a little bit vulnerable and asking if they will do you this favor, which may be, and I know you give the example in the book of asking someone to review the presentation in advance, right. Then that's a favor. And you know, they, you, you made yourself a little bit vulnerable, showing that you're not perfect. And then they want to help to reciprocate with some of that. I've given advice before where I had a really, really key presentation that, and it was something I had been working on for months of trying to change the entire marketing budget and change from doing product based marketing to being brand based and not to market individual products anymore. Which to say, hey, I want to take all the money we've ever spent and move it into this unknown entity because I swear it'll work. Sound good? Right. Ready? And there are a few people that you know would be the biggest problem. The cfo, um, the, in this case the head of lending and the products. Because you know, that was money that's supporting her projects and what she's, what her goals are. And for a lot of people it's easy to think that you should have like, well they're going to be. That's a lost cause. Nothing I can do over there or like, well I'll low hanging fruit. Right. I'll work on the people and hopefully they can sway if we've got a couple of those naysayers and you know, my advice on that is always the opposite. Right. Like, yes, still meet with everyone, but you need to invest in the people that everyone knows are going to be your big detractors or most likely to object. And in those meetings, saying, this is what I'm looking at, what would make you say, is there anything in here that would make you say no? And what would I need to add to. For you to love this idea, for you to be on board and getting them. IKEA effect. Right. We're part of this process together. And then when I go and finally do the actual pitch and everyone looks to these two people to see what they will say and they both like, well, you know, yeah, I've had lots of meetings with Molina and I love it. You know, she's dotted all those eyes and crossed those T's like, I'm on board. Then dominoes. Right. It's so much easier investing in the right people. And those, you know, naysayers can often be your biggest advocates if you invest properly.

Oh, yeah, that's solid advice. Yeah, that's, that's, that's so interesting. Yeah. I don't know if you've ever heard this. It's an older book, the Art of Woo.

I don't think so. Tell, tell us about it.

It came out in like, I think 2008, I believe. But it's, it's Art of Woo. Woo. But they say win others over. And it's, it's really good. It's, it's, it's a behavioral economics book. And it. Basically one of the parts is they have like a whole diagram of like an organization and they talk about who you're trying to influence is not always, you know, the obvious choice. There are people in the organization that don't have the highest position but are very influential. And if you, if you sit down for five minutes first and think about who you're really trying to influence, that's, you know, that's sometimes half the battle.

Definitely. Yeah. I'm making some notes. So we will make sure the art. The Art of Woo will be linked in the show. Notes for everyone. Along with, of course, influence, Pre suasion, Zoe Chance's book, you know, all that because those are great. Along with, of course, your book, Troy. So one of the things that I had told you leading into the conversation I wanted to talk about that I think is such a big barrier for people giving good presentations. And you can have really great content. You could be well researched and, you know, have all the facts on your side and I think confidence is like the biggest problem. If somebody is not confident in presenting and it comes across, it can make it so even a great idea feels bad to people when it's not well presented. And yet we have this, what, glossophobia. Right. So if people are afraid of giving presentations or public speaking, which is 77% of people or something, there's a million.

Numbers, but it's always around there. Yeah, it depends what you call, what you define it as, but yeah.

Right. So if we have, you know, three quarters of people are roughly don't feel good about doing a presentation and maybe are telling themselves, well, I'm, I just am not a good presenter and they worry about this confidence piece, but, like, hope for the best. Like what, what's your advice to help people that really hate giving presentations and, or that have issues with confidence?

Yeah, it's a great question. The, the, the approach that I've always had with this is that confidence should be well deserved or, or backed up by your content. So if you just are talking about, here's what I want to say, and you're not thinking about your audience, even if you put on a mock show of bravado, it's not going to be the right kind of confidence. And people will see that and they'll love to punch holes in it. So one of the things that I think is like, of the seven principles from Cialdini, I know he says there is no one best, but for me, I've always think liking is the number one. It's, it sounds too simple, but it's, it's really true. If we like someone, we'll help them out rather than, you know, spite them or slow them down. So I think if, if someone can really understand their audience to the point where they can express the audience's worries and concerns as well as they can. If you can really articulate someone's problem, then they will say, wow, you understand me, you get me. So then maybe you have the answer to my problem and that's where we should have confidence. So rather than, you know, whenever you're in presentation training, so, you know, a lot of people come, I want to speak like this person or I want to do this, and I want to be confident like I see in the TED talks. And you say, okay, well, that's body language, presence. This is all important. But if you really haven't done the homework of how you're going to get your message across to your audience, then fake confidence is, I don't know, I'm.

Not interested but yeah, yeah, definitely. And those great presentations that you see and people that speak for a living, they've. Spoiler alert. Maybe, like, they've given that same presentation 500 times. Right. Like, it's so, you know, there's so much little, like just tweaking and evaluation and like, understanding the content and thinking about the storytelling and all these aspects that go into it to make a really great presentation. And if you, you know, if it's just a thing that you're doing one time and you prep for the one meeting and it didn't go great, and then you do a different presentation the next time, you know, it's. It's not the same as, you know, the talk that you've given 500 times.

Yeah. How about you? I'd love to hear what your confidence tips are.

Well, practice is one. Right. And, you know, kind of leaning into. I really like what you were talking about with the audience prep. It's a little bit different, I think, in. So, like, the talks you're talking about, I think more of what you're talking about are those I'm doing a pitch to someone who's in the room or a group of someones that's for the budget or to get a project through. And you can do kind of that more individual type of research on the organization or whatever it is. And doing a keynote to a room of 500 people. I have some idea of that. But there's going to be a wide range of backgrounds. And so. And, you know, same talk could be for very different audiences. And so to instead be. To really know the content and the journey, I want the audience to go on and. And what the. So the full kind of arc that I want for this story and what's the most important thing for people to get at the end and know that you can't have everything. So if we just have one most important thing. What is that most important thing? And this very much. We'll. We'll talk about your A, B, B, C after. After this, which I love that framework you have there, little teaser prime or what have you for everybody here. But like, so I have the main arc and like, for my talk on what your customer wants and can't tell you. And really the goal of the talk is for people to realize that behavioral economics is a thing, have some idea that they, like, can use this themselves, that it really works and to be inspired to go do something. Perhaps it's to check out the podcast, to get a book, to go read something else. Like, but to go and be inspired about understanding people little bit better. That's like my goal. And so I have the arc to get them to that. And then there's all these like, mini kind of emotional. It's like the emotional roller coaster of having them test and experience something to get the value of it. So anyway, that level of thoughtfulness to think about little things, like I bring up a study about Amazon at the very beginning and then I know that I'm going to circle back to it at the end. I know where it's the, like, pause for effect. People will laugh at this. I give an extra moment for that. This is how I do it. It's very rehearsed, but it doesn't have to feel that way. So just knowing that lands and trusting it's going to be good. One more thing on this, when I first started doing podcasting, because I had done a lot of public speaking leading into that, and you think, like, oh, I'm going to be good at this. Like, I know how to do that sort of thing. And talking into a microphone to myself in my semi dark house at 11 o' clock at night, doing the same talk and having, you know, nobody laugh or react because there's no one there. And you have to just, you know, pause for effect and assume that people get it and they think I'm funny and just keep going is. Is a hard skill, you know, and even if people aren't actively, you know, laughing along or whatever, that you just know that most of the time it works, then you just have to kind of own.

Probably set you up early for zoom calls.

It did. Yeah. And when all my, when all of my presentations got switched to Virtual in 2020, it was not that hard for me to know that I'm doing the talk and you go jazz hands and nobody does. You hear nothing and see nothing and just, just keep going. Yeah.

Oh, man. Yeah. No, that, that's such a, such a good point. And confidence is, is definitely. You have to get over your glossophobia, your fear of public speaking. And I touch a little bit on that in the book. One of the ways that I like to think about it is kind of the, the cognitive behavioral therapy, exposure therapy, just, you know, exposing yourself to sometimes failure because that's the reality. Confidence shouldn't come from. Oh, I'm going to nail this every time. Confidence should come from, maybe I make it, maybe I don't. I'm going to give it my best, but I'm okay with that. That's real confidence. Otherwise, once you fail you're just shattered and.

Yeah, yeah. And I know that. I appreciated that you had the, like, kind of the things that can go wrong stuff, right? Like technical failure. Failure, yes. Like the. I was doing a presentation for a best in show award at these marketing awards once, and they had it so that the top four people had to come and present and you had a certain period of time and they were going to do live voting and announce the winner for Best in show at the event, you know, on site. And ours was for some commercials that we had made. And so showing those commercials was pretty key to, you know, winning. And we tested and did everything to make sure that it would work. And then in the moment, videos won't play. They can't get it to work. And, you know, like, I just like talking and kind of working the crowd. I have background in improv too, and so I think that's, you know, and have been comfortable on a stage, did my, like, joke, like literal tap dance as I'm like going across the stage answering questions. And then everybody. I think this was a super pratfall effect moment for me because we won. And I had so many people afterwards saying, oh, my gosh, I would not have been able to get through that. Like, I think people voted for me because they felt sorry. But it worked out, right? If. But I could have just totally frozen and panicked and written it off and said, like, well, I mean, what chance did we have? The video didn't work, but it didn't even. It didn't matter.

The show must go on.

Yes, for sure.

No, that's another thing. You were speaking before about vulnerability, right? So being perfect, people don't really identify with that. So, you know, they see a mistake, they see you roll with it. That's. That says a lot about character and confidence that you can do it. So, yeah, I think people see that. And that actually sometimes is more valuable than a mock confidence.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And yeah, that's just like they say, the thing that you want to focus on focusing. Illusion is a real thing in presentations where we start to look at the one thing that we think everyone is paying attention to, and typically they're not. But then you feel like you have to call attention to it and it just makes it worse. You. Do you have any thoughts or stories or things on that? Like, or tips to not get so hung up on those sorts of little tidbits.

Are you talking about, like, audience reaction?

Or if you're giving a presentation and you stumble through your words and you think, oh, gosh that's all anyone's thinking about now. And then you're just so hung up on one little thing that you think it must be. Then people end up, typically, then they'll make a joke about the thing that happened or get hung, like, really stuck on the thing that no one noticed. And they make it so much worse.

Yeah, it's so interesting. I heard a comedian one time talking about. It was a bunch of comedians discussing something, and they talked about, what's the worst heckle that you ever got? And a few people were just like, oh, someone said this, and then someone did that. And this one guy goes, nope, nope. The worst is when I look down and I see one guy in the front row just with a straight blank face, just looking at me. And I could have a stadium of, you know, 40,000 people laughing their heads off. But I'm focused. What's that guy? What's. What's his deal? Why does he hate me? What's going on? And it gets in your head. Yeah.

Yeah, right?

So, yeah, I guess. I guess again, being comfortable that you're not going to get everyone. Before we were talking, you were talking about the book, and you were like, yeah, get ready. You're going to get some bad reviews. Someone's good. Someone's going to be a hater. They're not going to get your concept or your idea or they don't like you. Whatever it is, confidence is being okay with that. You know, you don't like it, but you're. I can roll with it. So I think that's probably the biggest thing, is just build up that kind of confidence. And that's why I think it was so good. I don't want to bring up Zoe Chance again, but I love her stuff.

Hey, we love Zoe. You can always bring her up where.

She was talking about rejection. And there's that ted talk about 100 days of rejection or something where the. It's actually a Chinese guy. He just went out every day and asked some stupid question. Can you give me $100 or something? Whatever. Can I go in your backyard and dig up your plant? And just ridiculous things that he would, you know, challenge himself with. And he says by the end of it, so many people surprisingly said yes to absolutely ridiculous asks. And he said that built up his confidence. And someone said, no, it didn't mean anything to him anymore. He was almost like, of course you're gonna say no. It's a crazy question. But after that, when he actually asked something that was reasonable, it was just like, he Was confident that, oh, yeah, you should say yes to this. And that shows through. So I think getting people, when I have clients that have that glossophobia, the fear of public speaking, the lack of confidence, exposure therapy is the best. Just get them to, you know, start off with, you know, don't worry about your presentation so much. Raise your hand the next meeting. Ask a question. You know, questions are actually, you know, I know you're a big believer in questions, too, so that's actually can be more powerful than a statement. But most people view it as just like, oh, this is not. I haven't worked up to making a statement yet. I'm going to ask a question, but they feel more comfortable with it. Ask a question, make a comment. Just agree with someone. Oh, I just want to say that's a great point. I also agree. And then they just get comfortable expressing themselves. And then. Then you can kind of work your way up to where you're doing the same thing, but in your presentation.

Yeah, yeah, Great advice. And like you said, I always love whenever I see somebody dedicate anything to questions. Feel good about it. Like, questions are great. So I had mentioned to you that I wanted to talk, have you talk a bit about storytelling and along that line, how so, you know, the book of Being Bridges and Barriers and how you even decided to have your book about speaking be centered around the Brooklyn Bridge and then how the story weaves in and, you know, tell us a story about the story that gets meta. Totally.

Yeah. So I lived in Brooklyn, so I lived right by the bridge, of course, so that was a very familiar icon to me. But I think as I was trying to come up with some type of simplified model to work with my clients on, something very easy to understand and one of those simple but profound things which I was hoping for. I don't know if it came out that way, but where just. Just, you just have this, you know, basic idea, but people get it quickly, but then can spend the rest of their life perfecting it. That's kind of what I was hoping for. And one of the things that kept coming up is, is what carries people across, you know, and as I started to write it on the board, the whiteboard, as I was training, it started to come together where I was like, yeah, you're just trying to get someone from, you know, in this case, A to C, right? Get your audience over to change. But there's a lot of. The first thing that came up was the bridges, you know, oh, we have to have a bridge to take us across but then what became more and more apparent was the barriers. And I was like, man, I don't think a lot of people sit down and spend a lot of time. The natural thing is like, oh, here's five reasons why you should buy this product, or five reasons why you should say yes, or here's all the benefits. But if we don't think about what's holding them up, it could be a very, very simple thing that if we just focused on that, they'd be like, oh, really? Oh, yeah, sure, in that case. And then you're like, oh, man, I could have tried a million different other ways of telling them how great it was, but that wasn't their issue. They had some kind of hang up. So, yeah, so the bridges was a thing and then I can't even tell you how it became the Brooklyn Bridge. It's just, I think it was a bridge that held a close place in my heart. And then I knew the Brooklyn Bridge story. And for the many, many, many of you who haven't read the book, maybe all of you, it's new.

It's new, right?

I tie in a metaphor of the Brooklyn Bridge and how, how it was designed, how it was built, the people that worked on it. And I parallel that to just the different aspects of a presentation, whether it's the engineering and design or whether it's the psychology. Because the Brooklyn Bridge actually has a psychology element to it. So, yeah, that's, that's kind of how that came about.

Yeah, I, I really love it. And like you were saying, when you take something that feels so distant from the idea and then can find the way that it all weaves together, like, I've never talked about a bridge in that way, but reading it like, oh, this is really cool. And I learned things, and some of it, like I've heard some of the story of the Brooklyn Bridge, but it hadn't resonated with me in the same way, not having lived there. And, and, and you know, your own story, stories with it and. But it's cool to see it in a new light, right? And then even if, and it's like the little, the breadcrumbs or whatever, we want to be thinking about the dripping of the faucet or whatever, right? That the beginning, each chapter we open up a little bit more about the bridge or the people working on it and you think, wow, that's really cool. And now I'm going to learn something else. It's like a palate cleanser kind of as each chapter, like getting you ready to, to learn more about the storytelling and presentations.

Yeah, yeah, I hesitated on that part because at the same time I was reading a book called Write Useful Books by Rob Fitzpatrick and I was almost done the book and then I came across that and I was like, oh, this is almost everything he says not to do. But it's also things that, as you know, in training, the second you tell a story, people's, their heads perk up, they drop their pen, they're just waiting to hear what's going on. So I'm like, you know what? It's not wasted. Maybe it's a palate cleanse like you said, or maybe it's a primer, or maybe it's just.

Or both.

It's another wave of interest. Like, okay, we talked about all this nitty gritty stuff and then, oh, there's a story, I don't have to think. And it just kind of carries through.

It's kind of like, you know, there are any of the bingeable shows where, you know, one, you know, the auto start or whatever, but you get the, just the first couple bits and you go, you know, I just want to see what this one's going to be about. I just, I just want to let it play for like one minute and that's what you always tell yourself and then you know, the next one's about to start. Right. And I think it's like that with the chapter. So it's not as with everything. Right. It's not that it's going to always work this way every single time for every single single person, but in this case helping where it's like, I just wanna, I'm gonna learn a little bit more that's gonna pull me back in and then everything else continues to be interesting and it's great, but like it's a nice flow with it. And you told the story in a really non traditional way as well. Right. It doesn't have to be linear. I think that's something that people struggle with too. You agreed in a way that I think maybe. Do you have thoughts on, on that. About not needing the story to be that linear format?

Yeah, so. So one of the things I did is I outlined the book, of course, and then I had, I wanted a quote at the beginning of every chapter and then something to do with the bridge and then have a little story and I had it kind of linear. And then when I read Write Useful Books, he's like, you got to front load your book. Because you know, in, in writing a book, I don't know if you did beta readers, but I did. I had an app that I could track where people were in the book and where they stopped.

Mm.

And then when you see people stopping at the same point, you go, okay, why did they stop there? You know, how did I lose them? Did they get confused? Are they annoyed? Are they bored? So then I said, okay, let me front load more of the presentation stuff in the beginning. So for all the people that are just want to get the value, they can get that. But that messed up all the stories. I put it all out of order, and I kind of looked at it and go, oh, what have I done? Now I have to rework all this stuff. But then I got comfortable with it. I said, you know what? I know stories don't have to be linear, but sometimes it's hard to fight it even when you know it. But, yeah, they call that in media res, where you kind of start somewhere at an action point in the story, and then you can go back in any order you want. I mean, there's so many. Storytelling has a structure. There's some basic. I wouldn't say rules, but principles. But you can break them all once you're comfortable with it and you know where you're going and you know why you're breaking it. Yeah.

Oh, well, I think that lends itself to. I keep wanting to talk about the red sneakers effect on the show, and I haven't really yet, and I will do an episode on it at some point, and this gets back to some of the confidence piece. And like, you're saying you can only really break the rules when you know the rules and not look like a dummy. Do you want to talk a little bit about the red sneakers effect?

Yeah, it's. It's an interesting one. So the red sneaker effect is basically where if you do something, in this case, it's just a simple thing of wearing something outlandish like red sneakers. Not that that's outlandish, but stands out. It's different, unique. People will kind of assume that you have some kind of obviously one confidence and. And maybe competence. And they're like, wow, why is this person able to break with tradition when everyone else is trying to fit in? So it's just a persuasion thing that, you know, kind of the Mark Zuckerberg wearing the hoodie type thing, or Steve Jobs, you know, just coming out in jeans and shoes when, you know, before that it was always, you know, full suit. Yes. Yeah. So that's the red sneaker effect. But the part you're Talking about is interesting that if people sense that you're not doing it authentically, whether that's because you're trying too hard or whether. Because you don't know.

Right. Yeah. If you wore a hooded sweatshirt, because you did, you thought it was a casual event, and.

Yeah, it was the only thing clean. Yeah. Then. Then it'll backfire. Yeah. So, yeah, just showing. Showing uniqueness is. Is a, I think, a big principle that psychologically, it really. It puts a pin in, you know, your confidence. People like, oh, okay, if this person is comfortable enough with doing something out of the ordinary. And a lot of times, if we highlight that. Some kind of uniqueness, that's very powerful too. So for me, it was. It was kind of interesting. I was on LinkedIn for a long time and just no attention at all. And then one time I just decided to put in my headline just, I apply Behavioral Science and Behavioral Economics to Presentation Design. Just that change. People started to notice I had always done it. I just never highlighted it. It was always interesting to me. It was always part of my thing, but I didn't highlight. So sometimes just highlighting something that we do that's unique, some people are afraid of that. But I say lean into it because, yeah, people will notice, and that will really make you stand out in a good way.

Yeah. I'm always really thoughtful about what I'm wearing when I'm presenting and seeing, speaking. You know, that where I want it to be easy would be like, oh, she was wearing that really cool red dress. Or the. You remember the speaker with the. Her hair was in braids. Right. Like something that you don't necessarily like. I. And my hair, I have braided a lot now, and people kind of. It's almost like a trademark or something for me that they know I wear braids a lot or it might be a certain color or whatever it is that you do that can help people to remember. You know, that's something that you just. But you have to be, again, confident and own it. And I think that's a big piece of just being comfortable with the choice that you make and not dwelling on it. I've been recently wearing sneakers a lot when I'm attending conferences, not necessarily when I'm speaking. And they're actually purple and pink. Bright, bright. And I started actually at south by Southwest, where it's like, I do not want to be walking between stuff and so much and wearing uncomfortable shoes. And if I'm trying to promote health and behavior change. Right. I'm gonna just. I'm just Gonna own that. I'm gonna wear my sneakers and I'll wear something that's purple that matches or pink, that matches or whatever and just be okay with it. And almost no one says anything. And those that do have kind things to say and I know why I'm doing it, and I would have a good explanation for it. And it kind of, you know, it's like, I don't care. Right. This is a good choice for me. And if you're. If someone's gonna give me a hard time at, like, that's them. This is my, you know, it's okay to do it unless it's the conference organizers giving me a hard time or something. But, yeah, if there were those type of rules as a presenter, I wouldn't do that. Right. But it's something that's just, you know, owning whatever your truth is and being. Being comfortable with that. So we, I know, could talk for all time. And I've already kept you a little bit over on our time. If we can close on one, maybe. Do you have a top tip for people? And I know there are a million tips we could have, but if somebody is just going to start thinking about working on being a better presenter, doing better in their next pitch or their next budget meeting or whatever it is, like, do you have kind of a place that you would recommend people start as they think about being better at conveying information to others?

Great question. I think my, my. The biggest thing that I try to do with my clients is right away, have put them on a. Like a. I call it the month challenge, where just every day for a month, they video themselves for one minute. Just one minute.

Gross.

Yeah. And they can talk about any topic they want. And I usually set them up with some free app. An app that a lot of people don't realize is. Is just PowerPoint. It has a AI coach in there that a lot of people don't know about. And it'll tell you how many words per minute you're talking, how many times you say. It'll tell you your pace, how fast you're speaking. It'll go through all those things and then just have them line that up. And what I tell them, I said, try to just speak for one minute about any topic you want. Try to be fluent, take your time, draw out some points. I usually give them something like the rule of three, where, you know, pick a topic and pick three things about it and talk about that. So starts to give them some structure. And then one thing that I noticed that I don't know, maybe you noticed too, but most of the time the one thing that's really, really lacking is just energy. And I just have them say, before you start, just say 1, 2, 3. Energy. And, and just, and just bring it. Because I'm, I'm very, very introverted. I don't know, maybe you are too, but I, I have no problem. You're not? No. Okay. I saw you singing on some of your YouTube videos and I was like, oh, wow, I could never do that. That's great.

Yeah.

But so for me, I, I, I'm fine with silence. I'm fine with low energy on a one to one basis, but when you present, I have to really turn up the energy and turn up the voltage a little bit. So I think that's probably the biggest thing. So that's practical practice. But just in the event, just amping up your energy a little bit makes a giant difference. It's the way you're perceived. People are more interested, engaged, rather than just speaking like this and going through like this. You can say the same thing many different ways. So, yeah, energy, I guess, would be the number one.

I love it. And I'm gonna have to check out this PowerPoint coach deal. This is what, and this. I always say I'm gonna do the like Instagram reel type challenge and like, I'm gonna do them every day. And I just, as I said gross when you made that suggestion. I just, it's the thing that I, I have always struggled with and I accept this and I will do better. I will, I will do the challenge. So. So, Troy, for everyone who is ready to learn their copy of your book and wants to connect, what is their best means of doing so?

Probably the best way to contact me is through presentation. Persuasion.com. so that's my website and yeah, I'm on LinkedIn a lot, so that's, I'm not on, I'm not good with social media, so. No Facebook, no Instagram, just, just LinkedIn. So.

Yeah, well, you're all over my LinkedIn, that's for sure. That's where I see all the time and always really interesting and thoughtful posts. So I highly recommend, of course, that everyone follows you on LinkedIn. There will be links in our show, notes for them to do that and to get the book and learn more and, you know, just thanks again for coming and talking fun, brainy stuff with me.

Oh, what a pleasure. Thanks. Thanks so much, Melina. I'm honored to be on your show. Thank you.

Thank you again to Troy Andrews for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I love talking about giving great presentations and storytelling. So you know, I loved everything about this conversation and the insights in Troy's book Bridges and Barriers. And of course, I really, really love the metaphor of the bridge and how that weaves in throughout the book itself. It's such an interesting and different approach to a book like this, and something I think is much harder to accomplish well than it is to think about doing. It can be scary to decide to take something like the Brooklyn Bridge and decide that it will be a central theme in your book about giving better business presentations. Two things that it feels like shouldn't go together, but they absolutely can when you're willing to step out of that comfort zone. You know, I love that Troy decided to weave himself into the work in this way and really practice what he preaches. I think it makes it that much more relatable. And that's the whole point, isn't it? I also love how much he talks about and features Cialdini's seven Principles of Persuasion, which is why I jumped on the opportunity to refresh my interview with him earlier this week. That is of course, my top recommended next episode for you to check out after this one, episode 312 so you can learn all about the insights from the man himself. And if you've already heard that one, don't worry. There are lots of other great episodes linked for you in the show notes, including my conversation with Sarah Thompson on cognitive semiotics and the power of metaphor and TEDx speaker coach David Paul giving his tips for behavioral storytelling and so much more. They are all waiting for you, along with links to related books like Influence and Bridges and Barriers, as well as ways to connect with and learn more from Troy. All within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 313 and thank you again to Troy Andrews for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You won't want to miss it. Until then. Thanks again for listening and learning with me. And remember, remember to be thoughtful. Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.